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5/19/2002                                                                                       View Comments

You Can't Prove That God Does Not Exist

by Jerry Brown and Jon Nelson

This is correct. It is also irrelevant for it does nothing to prove that God DOES exist, and proof is the responsibility of whoever makes the claim. So, who is making the claim here? The burden (or onus) of proof is on the person who asserts a positive claim. The theist, by claiming that God exists, must supply the evidence for that claim. Atheists are not claiming or asserting anything, and thus have only the burden of rebuttal. All logical arguments are based on an understanding of these burdens. Obviously, it is impossible to examine every nook and cranny in the universe, or to examine every subatomic particle to find "God", however one chooses to describe him/her/it. To carry the theist¹s demand to its logical conclusion, the atheist could demand that they disprove the existence of Zeus, Brahma, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, or any of the other mythological gods and beings that sprang from the fertile imagination of humankind.

Existence is identification.

To prove that something exists, you must describe the object in question. This means detailing its physical attributes; it does NOT mean describing the actions of that object. In the case of God, theists must describe what God IS, not what they think He DOES. Many of the more philosophically-minded believers try to sidestep this issue by describing facts of reality that they feel could only have come about by divine fiat: The "creation" of the universe, for example. This argument presumes that the universe was created, which obviously implies a creator, rather than being a formation from natural causes.

This and other theological arguments have been refuted time and time again; the interested reader is advised to consult the references at the end of this leaflet for more detailed examinations of these arguments. What is worthy of note here is the simple fact that many theologians continue to spew forth these philosophical dinosaurs as if they were the latest theological findings.But most theists are not content with an impersonal creator God; they want a deity that they can have a personal relationship with. And that is where "revealed" religion comes in. The God of the "revealed" religion of Christianity is said to see all, know all, and make it all (in six days) entirely for human benefit. He is said to possess unlimited power and, according to the Bible, commands us to do certain things and behave in certain ways which by some strange coincidence are always beneficial to the ruling class. The evidence supporting this concept is primarily hearsay, contained in various "holy" writings originating so far back in antiquity that they cannot possibly be verified (especially since most of this evidence involves supernatural phenomena witnessed by illiterate, fearful peasant folk who saw supernatural forces at work everywhere), and that must be "interpreted" by a select few for the rest of us to accept "on faith". And right there is a strong indication that something is wrong.

That which exists needs no faith or coercion to be believed. The fact of the Sun¹s existence needs no interpretation; you don¹t need faith to know it¹s out there. If this God exists, has the abilities he is claimed to have, and cares for the beings he has created, the theist is left on the horns of a dilemma, for he or she faces questions that make a mockery of the concept of an "all-good" God: Why did he create a world of so much suffering? The Christian answer that this is due to the "sins" of humankind do not explain the ruthless predatory nature of carnivorous animals. Couldn¹t he have left us some simple instructions on how to improve the quality of our lives on Earth rather than downplaying our earthly existence and extolling the virtues of the "next life?"

Why don¹t we have a reliable source of information that answers our questions about nature? The Bible doesn¹t even come close; for one thing it is riddled with errors and inconsistencies. Why disease? Why chronic pain, making lives miserable and serving no useful purpose? Why did this "creator", who created everything, create an Adolph Hitler? Where was this loving God when millions of innocent people were brutally tortured and killed under a leader who claimed to be doing "God's will"; a leader who, incidentally, was never excommunicated from his church? What happened to the countless prayers uttered heavenward from Auschwitz, Dachau, and the other concentration camps? Theistic answers to these and other questions are not answers at all, only rationalizations.

By contrast, the atheist answer is simple and non-contradictory: There is no one there to answer these prayers. It is up to us, as humans, to prevent these grand human tragedies. It is up to us to ease the suffering here on Earth. We must recognize our responsibilities, and cease shifting them heavenward .This supposedly all-powerful God does not control nature to prevent floods, droughts, and earthquakes. If he made all the beauty and joy, he also made all the ugliness and sorrow, all the viruses and disease, and all the degeneracy and hatred.

Why? How intelligent is this God? He doesn¹t seem to score any better than random chance and repeats the same errors over and over again (witness the countless floods and earthquakes worldwide). The standard theistic responses to these questions are well-known but they are, of necessity only evasions because true and honest answers tend to disprove the existence of their God, and are thus self-defeating for the believer.So, while we can¹t prove with absolute certainty that God does not exist, the balance of the evidence is so strongly on that side as to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And from all that¹s known, the probability (for our lives must be based on probabilities, not absolutes) is that we are an insignificant part of a continually evolving universe of unknown origin and destiny, of such incredible vastness that we are barely beginning to understand it. To attribute its origin and operation to something with human-like qualities, and assuming that this "something" would have the slightest interest in one mere speck of dust among billions and billions would seem to be a form of egoism bordering on insanity.

References -
1 Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith. Published by Prometheus Books 1989
2 Atheism: A Philosophical Justification by Michael Martin. Published by Temple University Press 1990
3 Lucifer¹s Handbook by Lee Carter. Published by Academic Associates 1977
4 The Human Agenda: How to Be At Home In The Universe - Without Magic by Roderic Gorney, M.D., Ph.D. Published by The Guild of Tutors Press 1979

19 comments:

karlosvuletos said...

I could tell you that there is a man named Paul next to you. You can't smell, touch, feel, smell, or hear him. You can't sense him at all. I can't prove he's their can I, but you can't prove that he's not based on what I said.

I think it comes down to common sense - god was made in a time thousand of years ago when people didn't know any better. Science has found the answers to the age old questions that lead to people inventing him as the answer. Really it's just a question of "are you gulibal or not".

Justin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Justin said...

"I could tell you that there is a man named Paul next to you. You can't smell, touch, feel, smell, or hear him. You can't sense him at all. I can't prove he's their can I, but you can't prove that he's not based on what I said.

I think it comes down to common sense - god was made in a time thousand of years ago when people didn't know any better. Science has found the answers to the age old questions that lead to people inventing him as the answer. Really it's just a question of "are you gulibal or not
".
THIS above is so true.

Anonymous said...

I am amused by the supposed intellectual capabilities of atheists. They seem to make great claims "There is no God". Interesting. First of all, to make a claim such as that someone must be relying extremely heavily on man's claims of intelligence. Which to be honest, is really quite elementary. I am interested in how a man deems that he is even capable of thought without the designer of thought. Thought must originate with something or someone. I am much more apt to put my trust in that something or someone who designed thought before i trust someone who uses it. Also I find it interesting that atheists like to pretend that the only world and dimensions that exist are those that exist within our own world. And that the dimensions that exist in our world are only those that we as human being experience(see quantum string theory)You are at the mercy of the laws in which the world you live in. There is something far greater, far more intelligent, and far more powerful than any of us even has the ability to comprehend. And that something is the Almighty God. Science does NOT know where life came from. Science does NOT know how the earth and universe came about. How can it? It can only test what it can see. That is the entire idea of science. To prove something as fact. Science does not refute God because it does not know. And it does not refute God because there IS a God. Can we prove God with a science experiment? Seriously, should I even have to ask that question.
Also to those who like to invoke an imagined gullibility of Christians, I would like to pose the gullibility of those who would believe the fallacies of what the world has to offer. And by the world, I do not mean science, because science as i said before does not refute God. I mean your own selves and those around you who know nothing and claim to know everything. Do you claim how to know how to perform a surgery unless you are a surgeon? do you claim to know how to take apart a car engine unless you are a mechanic? No, that would be ridiculous. Then how may I ask, do you claim to know if there is a God.
The truth is that Christians give the very answer for meaning on this planet, with reasoning that involves stepping beyond what can be seen, and sometimes beyond what can even be explained. And those that don't believe aren't happy with the answer. Of course it's not exactly great to find out that you are a created being at the mercy of your creator, but it is a relief to know that for some reason he loves the human race and for some reason even sent his son to die for us by our own hand. And it is also relief to know that this life as we see it on earth, isnt all there is. Somewhere deep in your souls, you all know the truth. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, is where the answer to God exists.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Christians give the very answer for meaning on this planet, with reasoning that involves stepping beyond what can be seen, and sometimes beyond what can even be explained."

And that meaning is what, exactly? What meaning is given to this planet by Christians that it doesn't already have?

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous,

You attack the same straw man that the majority of apologists attack. Have you any credible evidence for the existence of invisible conscious beings? I've never seen any. Nor have I seen any credible evidence for invisible giant unicorns. I have roughly equal regard for those two possible entities. Get it?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Anonymous wrote:
"Somewhere deep in your souls, you all know the truth"
-------
Once again I should trust some Hit&Run anonymous xtian's word, to inform me of some great truth they hold in the palm of their hand (or perhaps it's something ELSE they are holding in their palm).

Yet another fundie here, who hasn't a clue about a wonderful basic earthly discovery.....The Paragraph.
Perhaps language classes in fundie schools don't require their students to learn "5th grade" basic writing skills?

Now Anon, it would be hard for my deep soul to know YOUR truth, as you first must convince me that we even have souls within our physical selves, let alone this soul informing me of some grand truth of yours.

Care to PROVE to us that we have souls from your god?
I BET YOU CAN'T!!!


ATF (who thinks anon's 'RETURN' key is probably broken, or can't be found today)

Anonymous said...

well something has to end up in Hell

Beth aka Anonymous said...

I would first like to say that I did not post the last comment about how "something has to go to hell". That was someone else, I would never say something like that, so I just wanted to make that clear.

I did, however, post the first anonymous comment in which I did neglect to separate the first paragraph and make it into two paragraphs. Sorry for the oversight.

I would like to address the questions and comments aimed at my first post. Even though I will do this, I don't imagine that anyone will even ponder it anyway, seeing as they will only read to defend their faith. I also want to say that I once asked the same questions as you. I struggled with God, struggled with life, struggled with understanding. Sometimes there SEEMS there are no answers to these questions. Sometimes there SEEMS that there are no explanations for these questions. We all know this.
No matter what each of us thinks, no matter what each of us believes, we are all human beings. We all have the same needs, the same types of feelings. We cry, we laugh, we love, we hurt.(sorry if that sounded like a hallmark card) It's true. No matter what we believe we are all stuck in the same exact situation. We are stuck here, in this world with 6 billion other people exactly like us. And every single person on the planet asks the same exact questions. My point is, if everyone wonders the same thing, and everyone asks the same questions, shouldn't there be an answer? Just because we don't know it, doesnt mean there isn't an answer.

As human beings, we strive for knowledge. From the moment we are born, we yearn to know the world around us. When we are children, we repeatably ask "What's that" or "How does that work". We expect there to always be an answer. The answer, "I don't know", is unacceptable. Does "I don't know" mean there is no answer? No, it just means you don't know. With that said, I would like to ask you a question. How can you say there is no God with all assurity, if many other people say there is one? Obviously, if no one can prove it one way or another, then the question remains unanswered.

Also, even though the question remains undoubtably unanswered, it doesnt mean that there isn't a right answer. So the question is "Does God Exist." We have concluded that the question has been unanswered, yet there must be an answer, and therefore, one of the answers is the right one. Before you choose the answer, be very sure that you choose the right one.

My answer to webmaster for the meaning that Christians bring is in the bible. Christians are the light of the world, the salt of the earth. They bring light to darkness and blindness, and are that salt that heals the pain. Christians carry the Word and the Spirit of Truth through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Christians give meaning to life through Love and compassion for others. Christians step beyond what can be seen, by not acknowledging what the world offers, and giving the gift that God offers. Christians step beyond what can be explained, by showing a God so loving that he sent his only son to die on the cross to save mankind from his sins, mistakes, and broken lives. Christians show the world the truth about who God is, what the world cannot see(God) and what the world cannot explain(who is God).

To Jim Arvo, I have never read any apologetists works, so I really don't know what they say. But as for your question of whether or not there is credible evidence of invisible conscious beings, how can i give evidence for something that is invisible, or as I like to say, the unseen by human eye. Just as human beings cannot hear certain things(such as a dog whistle) doesnt mean the dog doesnt hear it either. I also thought I addressed that question in my post when I said to check into scientific alternate dimensions that we interact with, but do not experience in the human sense. Also, if something is unseen by human eye or can't even be measured, how can you know if it influences you or not? Maybe we dont have all the instruments to measure the other dimensions yet, or to even measure our own. There are many many many unanswered questions in science. Quantum mechanics seeks to find and explain our universe, but so many things within our universe, such as atom behavior, cannot even be measured because the mere presence of a measuring device alters the outcome. scientists have even hinted to say that it seems that atoms are motivated by some kind of intelligence, that they do not understand. You can read about this yourself if you don't believe me.

To atheisttoothfairy and your question of a soul. The soul as described by the bible means simply
A breathing body, a living creature and the functions and qualities of human creatures. The soul is what you are, all parts of your being. You are your soul because you are a living, breathing, thinking, and experiencing human being. When I said deep in your soul I should have said the spirit, I meant deep in your understanding, the place where you rationalize. Or quite simply the very essence of who you believe you are. The spirit is described as the intellect, the emotion, and the will of a human being. I apologize for the incorrect terminology. As for God putting it there(spirit). I don't think I really have to prove that. It's pretty clear it came from somewhere, and i am pretty sure it didn't come about from evolution. So you first tell me where you think it came from, because you'll find that once again there is no secular answer.

So this has become a ridiculously long post, I hope you read it through, and I hope you think about it. If the answers to life are so clear that there isn't a God, why can't science prove it? And why can the Bible? There is only one right answer to the World's Greatest Question.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Beth aka Anonymous wrote:
We are stuck here, in this world with 6 billion other people exactly like us. And every single person on the planet asks the same exact questions. My point is, if everyone wonders the same thing, and everyone asks the same questions, shouldn't there be an answer?
-----
Beth,
You say 'every single person asks the same exact questions'.

If that question is; 'Is there a xtian god', then I'm certain every person on this planet does NOT ask this question.

If you mean, does every person ask if there is SOME kind of god, then I would say the majority probably do at some point in their lives, but I'm pretty sure we'd find exceptions, in that some never do ask that question.

If you meant some other universal question, then you'll have to inform us of it.

>How can you say there is no God with all assurity, if many other people say there is one? Obviously, if no one can prove it one way or another, then the question remains unanswered.
.........Also, even though the question remains undoubtably unanswered, it doesnt mean that there isn't a right answer. So the question is "Does God Exist." We have concluded that the question has been unanswered, yet there must be an answer, and therefore, one of the answers is the right one. Before you choose the answer, be very sure that you choose the right one.

Beth, What most of us here will say, is that there is NO PROOF of a xtian god existing, and a whole lot of proof to indicate 'he' was all concocted by some ancient folks with a selfish agenda to propagate.

I myself, see enough counter-evidence to discount ANY creator god, especially one who is interested in the life forms on this small remote planet, in the vast universe we reside in.

Yes there must be an answer to your "Does God Exist" question, and just because there has to be an answer doesn't bolster your case that the answer is your xitan god.
The answer (to us) would clearly be 'no' if you xtians have no credible proof to show your god is of reality.

Also, just because the majority of humans believe in some KIND of god, doesn't mean there has to be a god, let alone a xtian god of the bible.
Througout history we have many cases where the majority believed a falsehood, so numbers don't mean much in that regard.
e.g. Most used to think the earth was the center of the universe


>My answer to webmaster for the meaning that Christians bring is in the bible. Christians are the light of the world, the salt of the earth. They bring light to darkness and blindness, and are that salt that heals the pain. ..........Christians show the world the truth about who God is, what the world cannot see(God) and what the world cannot explain(who is God).

I have a sneaky feeling that Webmaster Dave will have a field-day with this question....LOL.
[ Okay stronger now break out that popcorn, cause I gotta a feeling this is gonna get interesting fast ]


>To Jim Arvo, I have never read any apologetists works, so I really don't know what they say. But as for your question of whether or not there is credible evidence of invisible conscious beings, how can i give evidence for something that is invisible, or as I like to say, the unseen by human eye. Just as human beings cannot hear certain things(such as a dog whistle) doesnt mean the dog doesnt hear it either.

A dog whistle isn't magical in nature, as your god must be.
It still produces a very physical sound, albeit a sound higher in frequency than human ears can detect. However, just because we can't hear the air molecules vibrating, doesn't mean we can't use electronics to detect the existence of that high pitched sound.
Therefore, we are NOT trying to prove something new exist, but rather just a simple variation of an already existing physical effect.

You are correct in that you can't prove invisible beings, so why the leap of faith to believe they exist?


>I also thought I addressed that question in my post when I said to check into scientific alternate dimensions that we interact with, but do not experience in the human sense. Also, if something is unseen by human eye or can't even be measured, how can you know if it influences you or not? Maybe we dont have all the instruments to measure the other dimensions yet, or to even measure our own.

Is this another leap of faith here?
Why would I have a reason to believe there are 'alternate dimensions', especially one's that contain some form of non-corporal life?

You ask if such a dimension could be influencing our lives.
Well, let's use astrology as an example.

It claims that some unseen 'forces' are influencing our lives, based on our birth date and the position of the planets/stars.
Many studies have been done that clearly show the pseudo science of astrology is totally bogus.
Luckily astrology is easy to discern, because it makes a claim that is easily testable by simple means.

If there is some unseen dimension out there, and this dimension isn't affecting any aspect of our lives, then whether it exists or not, is pretty much in the realm of "fun-fact" and nothing more.
If you believe that another dimension exists and that it is making a difference in our lives, then show us HOW it is doing that and you might get our attention.


>To atheisttoothfairy and your question of a soul. .........The spirit is described as the intellect, the emotion, and the will of a human being. I apologize for the incorrect terminology. As for God putting it there(spirit). I don't think I really have to prove that. It's pretty clear it came from somewhere, and i am pretty sure it didn't come about from evolution. So you first tell me where you think it came from, because you'll find that once again there is no secular answer.

First off, I have NO belief in any spirit or soul that is part of our being.

I've spent many many years reading about the concept of a soul/spirit and while there are indeed many claims that attempt to convince us that such a thing exists, I have yet to see a single piece of valid proof to show souls are real, let alone it being something that lives on after our bodies die.
So the attributes you speak about that we have, are clearly residing within our own brains and nowhere else.
Yes, of course our brains developed through the process of evolution and thus, so did our emotions, intellect and ummm, libido.

So I disagree that there is no secular answer, as I've read enough material that supports the very idea that everything that makes us human, came from our evolution, along with our life experiences.


>So this has become a ridiculously long post, I hope you read it through, and I hope you think about it. If the answers to life are so clear that there isn't a God, why can't science prove it? And why can the Bible? There is only one right answer to the World's Greatest Question.

Yes, I read your post though, as I always would do before answering a post.

I really didn't have to think about it however, as I've seen nothing new here that required me to ponder some new found theory.

Why should science have to prove that god doesn't exists?
If we go down that road, then science would have to disprove every crazy idea that someone cooked up.
Basically, it's almost impossible to prove a negative.

For instance, science can't really prove that pink unicorns don't take their vacations on the moons of Pluto, nor is there any reason to believe it's deserving of investigation.
You can't prove that I don't have a purple invisible dragon in my basement either and you wouldn't waste your resources in such a quest either.

Now, you say the bible can prove god is real, yes?
Do you know what circular reasoning is Beth?
Here's what you are actually saying to me....

The bible is true because it is inspired by God, in whom we can believe, because the Bible affirms it and the Bible is the source of truth

You believe that god exists because the bible says so.
But how do you know the bible is right.....well, because it says it is.

Your cherished bible book is not only incapable of proving your god exist, but if you take the time to find out it's history then you'll discover that it was all man-made.

Worse, it can't even support itself, as it's filled with contradictions, bad science, bogus historical events, not to mention impossible supernatural events; events that never repeat in modern times under the scrutiny of modern skeptics.

The gospel authors can't even agree amongst themselves, nor does it inspire xtians to all hold the same ideas of what their religion is suppose to be about.
This holy ghost that is in charge of homogenizing the creeds of your bible, is either non-existent or should be fired from his day-job.

Worse, not one part of your new testament was written by anyone who ever knew jesus in-person.
There is NOTHING in secular history to show this jesus character every walked this earth, especially as the son of some creator god.

We didn't discount your bible from some emotional agenda we had, but rather because it fell flat on it's own face, all by it's lonesome.


ATF (who just finished a really good new book that disproves the bible, beyond what I ever knew was possible before)

.:webmaster:. said...

Beth,

You wrote: "The answer, 'I don't know', is unacceptable."

"I don't know" is an answer people shy away from, that's for sure. In fact, it's infuriating at times how long it takes for people to just admit it when they don't know something. In nearly every case where I have asked a person a question for which the person really didn't have the answer, that person began to posit suggestions, guessing at what the answer might be, instead of just admitting, "I don't know."

You say that humans have a longing for knowledge. Perhaps that's true of children. Perhaps in adults it's just our nature to think we already know just about everything there is to know, and when we have to admit our ignorance, it's embarrassing. A person with a sincere desire for knowledge would probably never be totally content with "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it." If there is no reason to believe other than "Lots and lots of people believe it, we have a holy book, and you can't prove that I'm wrong," then that kind of evidence unsatisfactory. Oh, and the "evidence" for Christianity of "all the good people who are Christians" is counterbalanced by the bad people who are Christians and the good people who are not Christians. The reality is, there are lots of really nice people in the world and there are lots of not-so-nice people in the world. And both types are found in every religion and every people group.

People look to the stars and wonder if there is other intelligent biological life out there. The UFO craze is one product of the belief that there is intelligent life out there. There may be life out there, Beth, but the honest truth is we don't know. It seems likely there is life out there. There are a whole lot of planets in the galaxy and there are a whole lot of galaxies. Based on numbers alone, it's a good bet that there are some interesting fellows in outer space. But, no matter what you or I might believe about that, we still don't really know. We have no evidence that our counterparts exist on other planets, and until we have some solid evidence of such a thing, all we can do is carry on some entertaining barstool philosophizing about the possibilities. If, however, an honest "I don't know" drives you crazy, then you could always read UFO pulp, join some UFO society, and spend your nights scouring the desert skies for mysterious activity. In my opinion, UFO enthusiasts are not much different from religionists. There is no verifiable evidence to support either faith system, but the "true believers™" can't be dissuaded.

Popcorn time:

Beth said, "Christians step beyond what can be explained, by showing a God so loving that he sent his only son to die on the cross to save mankind from his sins, mistakes, and broken lives..."

Beth, the god portrayed in the Bible is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent: He knows every action that everyone will ever take and he has total sovereign power and control over everything.

The Bible starts out with God creating a scenario where his brand new little humans have no knowledge of good or evil. He confines them to a garden, commands them to not eat from one tree, puts Satan in their path, and goes away. He knows full well what is going to happen and He is in possession of the power to keep it from happening.

First off, if these humans had no knowledge of good or evil, how could they make the determination that God was good and Satan was evil? They have no way of making that call. And why is eating from a tree "evil?" Because this god said so? So in essence, "evil" has nothing to do with actions or intent, and "good" is about nothing more than blind obedience to the god. Yes, blind. Neither Adam or the Eve had any way of determining the merits of either God's or Satan's claims, nor had they the capacity for sorting out the relative goodness or evil of either of these bizarre characters.

Then, when Adam and Eve merely played out their roles as this god of yours had foreseen (and therefore planned), he curses not just them, but places the death sentence on all their prodigy for all time. Then, hundreds of thousands of years later (unless you also believe the world is only 6,000 years old) HE impregnates a young girl with HIMSELF, so HE can sacrifice HIMSELF to HIMSELF (for a couple of days) in order to appease HIS wrath over what HE set in motion, so that HE would have a way to forgive HIS creatures for the way HE created them.

I wonder why this God needs to see blood before he can forgive anyone of anything? And I wonder what harm we humans, living on a tiny planet on the outskirts of of an ordinary galaxy, could possibly be to this god that HE feels it necessary to imprison any of us in a torture chamber for eternity. It all sounds so deliciously medieval.

Bible-god is supposedly the one who created the inevitable situation in the Garden of Eden. HE is also the one who scripted, directed and opened the curtain on this whole weird passion play. But it's all my fault? And my lack of faith in HIS existence dooms me to "righteous retribution?"

More popcorn:

Paul wrote that because of the first Adam, all die. And because of the second Adam (Christ) all are made alive. (I Cor. 15:21-22)

If I have an automatic sentence of death on me because of the first Adam, why don't I have an automatic sentence of life because of the second Adam. Was the first Adam more powerful than the second? Why are any actions required by me at all to be granted the benefits from the second Adam? Why do I have to become a Christian? All I had to be was a human to be cursed by the first Adam's actions. Now, however, I have to become a "true Christian™" in order to be blessed by the second Adam. Here we see that your god's condemnation is unconditional, but his love is conditional. All I had to do was experience a live birth to be granted an eternal destiny in hell, but to attain heaven, I must become part of the correct version of the right religion, without any evidence that it is real, at all.

Once again, good is blind obedience to this god. Doubts and questions and lusting for knowledge are evil. And, condemnation is doled out unconditionally, but love is only attained by obeying certain conditions.

Beth, if you really have a "need to know" things, I highly suggest you do some honest study on history of the formation of the New Testament. You might be surprised to find out that most of the books were authored anonymously, that some authors copied from others, that none of the stories about Jesus are actually eyewitness accounts, and that it took nearly four centuries before Christians could come to any agreement on what should be included in the Bible and if Jesus was really co-equal with GOD or not. And, guess what, Beth... the controversy over what books should be in the Bible and the concept of the Trinity are still being argued about by Christians today!

Just in case you pull the freewill card, and suggest that God HAD to set things up as he did to preserve freewill, let me suggest something here. If god was seeking love, and was filled with unconditional love, then he would have given true freewill, allowing people to either love him or not of their own freewill. There would be no barbaric threats of horrific everlasting punishment in flames for not believing in him. If my kids stop loving me, or pretended I don't exist, I'd be depressed, but I can't imagine torturing them forever. That's ridiculous.

stronger now said...

"[ Okay stronger now break out that popcorn, cause I gotta a feeling this is gonna get interesting fast ]"

(munching...munching...)

Mkay...Got it ready in the nick of time. Got my bowl O' popcorn...my drink...now for some tunes...How about... KISS:

"Beth, I hear you callin', but I can't come home right now....."

beth said...

I wrote my first post not with the intention of providing thought to support the evidence of a Christian God but first to provide thought to support evidence of A God. But I guess this one will be to provide some evidence for my God.

Atheisttoothfairy, You said:

Beth, What most of us here will say, is that there is NO PROOF of a xtian god existing, and a whole lot of proof to indicate 'he' was all concocted by some ancient folks with a selfish agenda to propagate.

What is this selfish agenda you are speaking of? The new testament of the Holy Bible describes the first Christians of selling all they have and giving it to the poor. The Christian Bible tells us to love one another as ourselves, to forgive each other, or God will not forgive us. The bible says if someone slaps you in the face, turn the other cheek for them to do it again. The Bible teaches to take care of the poor, the orphans, and the widows. The Bible says to sacrifice your own needs and wants so that you can be a light to others. The gospel of Jesus Christ asks us to go against every desire of human nature. As for the proof of Bible and of Jesus walking the earth their are hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There is no dispute that a man named Jesus lived. Look it up, you will see. Also the apostles who wrote the new testament walked with Jesus, and were all martyred for their testimony, but not before they turned thousands to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If the selfish agenda you are speaking of has to somehow do with certain churches and denominations using God to make themselves rich. That is completely against the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Bible. These people and groups of people should not be used as an example for true christian living. These people are not following Jesus, they are following their fleshly desires.

Also give me reputable evidence that Jesus Christ is made up, and that the Bible is false. There is much more evidence to the contrary of that statement.

As for your needing evidence to believe in alternate dimensions, that is not my own idea. That is quantum mechanics, M-theory, and string theory. It is Science. Not some science that no one knows about, but the science that is getting closer and closer to explaining the true unity and order of the universe. Einstein devoted much of his life and study to trying to understand quantum mechanics.

The dimensions that we experience are affecting our lives right now. Time is a dimension. Space is a dimension. However we only "feel" like we experience a choice few of the many dimensions of time and space that exist. Again, these are not my ideas, this is SCIENCE and PHYSICS.

You also say this:

Worse, it can't even support itself, as it's filled with contradictions, bad science, bogus historical events, not to mention impossible supernatural events; events that never repeat in modern times under the scrutiny of modern skeptics

What contradictions do you speak of?
Bad science?

Isaiah 40:22 says "It is He who sits above the sphere of the Earth"

Hmm..this was written in 680 BC.

What are you talking about supernatural events? are you talking about Jesus's miracles or are you talking about things like the flood. What doesn't repeat in modern times? God said that earths judgement is reserved for the end. He promised that he would never again destroy the earth by water such as he did in the flood. The next time will be by fire.

As for Bogus Historical events, how do you think researchers came up with all the dates for the old testament? By the events, kingdoms, people, and dynastys who are talked about in it. The Bible has been said by archeologists to be one of, if not, the most historically correct books ever written.

But you will have to be more specific with what you are talking about. I mean give me some scripture verses that have without a doubt been disproven or that are historically incorrect.

The gospel authors can't even agree amongst themselves, nor does it inspire xtians to all hold the same ideas of what their religion is suppose to be about.

Where do the gospel authors disagree? give me the scripture. The only instance that I have read about is whether or not those who are Jewish or Gentile need to abide by the Mosiac Law, which they all agreed that the Law is for the Jews not the Gentiles. They also agreed that the Jews not to look down on Gentiles because they are not bound by the Law. That was the only instance of there being a discrepency, but God used Paul to explain the other Jewish Disciples that the Gentiles are chosen just as the Jewish were. Where there was confusion, The Holy Spirit brought order.
As for christians having different ideas about what their religion is about, that is because everyone is human. Or some are mislead by false teachers. The way to salvation is simple. But human reasoning sometimes muddies the water. Human reasoning to try "fix" God's message so that it conforms to their interests is what confuses the Truth. Religion in itself is empty. Religion and good works does not save. Only the power of the Living God with the Sacrifice of the Savior saves. All that other stuff that goes with "religion" is meaningless. The Bible makes this very clear.

You wrote this as well"
Worse, not one part of your new testament was written by anyone who ever knew jesus in-person.
There is NOTHING in secular history to show this jesus character every walked this earth, especially as the son of some creator god.

The Romans wrote about Jesus Christ as well as about his crucifixion. The respected Roman historian Tacitus wrote of Nero’s falsely blaming “persons commonly called Christians” for the fiery destruction of Rome. According to Tacitus, these Christians were followers of “Christus” (Tacitus’ rendering of Christ) who was “put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.” There are other mentionings of Jesus besides this. There are not many, but remember, his preachings were only for about four years, and he only went to one people, the Jews. There would not be many writings outside of the Jewish community. It was a world without the internet or cars back then, so to have an overwhelming amount of information about a man who came into the limelight for only about 4 years wouldn't be there to find. The procurator Pontius Pilate didn't even know who he was beyond the rumors until the Jewish peole brought Jesus to him to be crucified. However, after Christ ascended to heaven the apostles took over the ministry and hence the enormous explosion of Christians covering the face of our planet today. There are writings of the apostles who walked with Jesus originally, and were left to spread the gospel. Where did these apostles for Christ come from if there was no Christ? So you say that they all conspired together, sold everything, and were murdered for their own selfish purposes? WHAT are you talking about?? Where did Christianity come from if it is based on a false identity? I can see you questioning Jesus's right to call himself the son of God, but to say he didn't walk the earth at all, and is made up for whatever unfathomable reason is really stretching it. And I don't care what biased book you read to get your information either. Why don't you read a few books on the reliability of the bible and then make your own judgement.

To Webmaster:
The Bible is clear as to what the gospel of Christ is about. It doesn't matter how good you think you are..you will always fall short of the glory of God. You will always do certain things that could hurt other people. Lying, cheating, unforgiveness, hate, anger, addiction, hurt. All these are things that fester in "good" people regardless if you see them on the outside or not. All these things fester in all flesh. But with Jesus Christ, you can be set free from these bondages, because that is the reason he died on the Cross. Religion doesn't save anyone. Jesus does.

Also about UFO's. I really don't think that we can compare UFO's or Aliens to God. I realize that you are creating an anology, but UFO's and Aliens don't claim to have created human life or to be the way to salvation through a book that has been written over the course of 4000 years. The analogy doesn't really work for me. It doesn't mean anything if they exist or not. But if they did, I suppose people would try and say that it means there is no God. Even though the Bible never says if God decided to make aliens or not.

You said this:
Beth, the god portrayed in the Bible is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent: He knows every action that everyone will ever take and he has total sovereign power and control over everything.

I am going to pull the free will card with this just so you know.
I believe that it is different in that everything that happens is not his will. Jesus said that those who follow the will of the Father in Heaven will inherit eternal life. Not everything that happens is his will, therefore we all are not controlled by him, there are all different factors involved. We have free will and fleshly desires. Satan influences what goes on in the World as well. God created this earth for human life. So that he could create a life form to talk with and enjoy the company. We were GIVEN the earth and GIVEN DOMINION over everything. However, he wanted us to have our own minds, to choose our own destinys. If he didn't give us the choice, then we would be ruled by a control freak for a God. Our love for him would be forced and fake. He wanted to create beings that could love him and understand him for who he is. A Father. He wanted us to have a chance to Love freely. He gave us life. It is a gift that he gave freely.

He created us in innocence, and without fault. We had no knowledge of Good and Evil. However, Good and Evil did exist. Because God is perfect and Good, no one can be equal. Therefore there will always be two sides.

About the the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. First of All, as I said, we were given free will. However to have free will there must be a choice. The choice in the beginning was the choice to follow the will of the Creator. He warned them about eating from tree. Did he know they would eat from it? No I don't think he did. He knew what would happen if they chose to, but he could not control their choice. He could only warn them.

He did not put the serpent in the Garden and walk away. Evil came to try and destroy good. Satan wanted to destroy God's creation. He lied to them, and they chose to believe him. They may have been innocent but they were not unintelligent. They knew what God had warned them about, but they wanted to be equal with him. They knew they were the created and they wanted to be like the creator. They didn't eat the fruit so that they could do evil things. They ate the fruit so that they would have no one above them. Pride. At that moment Dominion was given to Satan. Human beings gave evil a chance to reign on earth and over themselves. We play serpent and Eve every day. Pornography, murder, sex before marriage, abortion, child abuse, divorce, selfishness, addictions, rape, war, "religion". All these are things that cause pain and death. These are things that hurt other people and destroy our lives. Why do these things sometimes control us? Because we let them, because it is always about "me". Without following God's will, sin comes in and the evil one seeks to destroy.

It is not God's will that anyone succumb to sin's evil intentions.

We have a choice.

Also God had to give Adam and Eve a way to OVERCOME the evil that existed through the tree. He put the tree in the Garden as an escape from knowing Good and Evil. The only way that Adam and Eve could have been given the knowledge was if they chose it. Satan could not have forced them to attain this knowledge. God made sure to warn Adam and Eve specifically about the tree, knowing that Satan would try and turn them away from God. The tree held all knowledge of good and evil, therefore humans could not have acquired it by the lies of Satan. Therefore, they were safe BECAUSE the tree existed. But it was only pride that led them to their fall. Not because God had failed to protect them.

As for the Judgement of God, you said this:

Just in case you pull the freewill card, and suggest that God HAD to set things up as he did to preserve freewill, let me suggest something here. If god was seeking love, and was filled with unconditional love, then he would have given true freewill, allowing people to either love him or not of their own freewill. There would be no barbaric threats of horrific everlasting punishment in flames for not believing in him. If my kids stop loving me, or pretended I don't exist, I'd be depressed, but I can't imagine torturing them forever. That's ridiculous.

First of all, the lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels. It is Satans punishment for perverting God'd creation and turning humans away from God with his lies. It was not created for Human Beings. But God's world is very different from the one we live in. You are either God's or you are not. If you don't believe that he exists and according to the Bible if you don't believe that Christ came in the flesh then you are Satan's. You are either influenced by fleshly desires or the desires and will of God. If you are not cleansed of all sin and evil thoughts, then how can you reside with a God who is Perfect? It is not his choice where you end up. It is yours. If you don't want to be with God and Jesus when you die, then you go with Satan, who also doesn't want to be with God and Jesus. There are only two places in the world after this one. You don't get to live on this earth anymore in the same way, this is where you were given dominion. But after this life, you will be under dominion of another. God gives you free will and will give you wisdom and knowledge of all things in the world after this, Satan seeks to enslave you and rule over you.

The law of conservation of energy states that energy is neither created or destroyed. The earth started with the same amount of energy and contains the same today. However Energy can be converted. But the energy that enlivened it is still alive - somewhere. Energy doesn't die, it transforms. When we die our bodies decompose and give off gases in the form of energy. Our flesh passes away. However, our thoughts do not pass away. The Bible tells us this. Our Spirit,(aetheisttoothfairy I know you will hate this)is transformed from the us that is inside our bodies, to the us that is outside our bodies. Our Spirit is energy made up of atoms, protons, etc. that converts to the world of all reality and is able to experience all dimensions in this world and the next.

God's will is that everyone will turn to him. He wants to give you wisdom and knowledge. He wants you to be content and joyous and peaceful. When you give you life to him, and trust him to impart his own will upon you, it is the best life that could ever be given you. You are free from all burdens. Jesus said to give all of your pain and hurt to him, for his burden is light. He will carry it for you, just as he carried the cross. This is your choice. It does you no good not to believe in God, but believing can transform you beyond anything that is humanly possible. I know, it happened to me.

"Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the Throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to the springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Revelation 7:16-17)

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Romans 8:38-39)

"But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." (Isaiah 40:31)

.:webmaster:. said...

Beth wrote: "The Bible is clear as to what the gospel of Christ is about. "

Yes, it's about cursing those who don't believe: "1 Corinthians 16:22: "If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema (damned)."

Beth wrote: "I believe that it is different in that everything that happens is not his will."

Thus saith the LORD:

"Ephesians 1:11 (NKJV) In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Isaiah 46:10 (NKJV) Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

1 Timothy 6:15 (NKJV) which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Romans 9:19 (NKJV) You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?

Romans 9:20 (NKJV) But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?

Isaiah 64:8 (NKJV) But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

Romans 9:21 (NKJV) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Psalms 135:6 (NKJV) Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.

Romans 9:22-24 (NKJV) What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Acts 4:27-28 (NKJV) "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,"


Perhaps, Beth, you should stop cherry-picking your verses and doctrines. Hmm?

Beth wrote: "But God's world is very different from the one we live in."

You can say that again! Thankfully only Stalin, Hitler, the Catholic Church and their ilk thought torturing people was a good idea. Praise be to NO-GOD that human ideas of justice and mercy have generally progressed beyond the level of cruel, inhuman tyrants. But then again, calling GOD inhuman is just exactly what you just did, wasn't it Beth? He's not like us.

Well, it's reasonable to assume that a god wouldn't be like us, but it would be reasonable to assume that it would be at least not be inferior in regards to justice.

What sins, Beth, have you personally committed that you honestly believe deserve everlasting torment in a lake of fire? Your sins, whatever they might be, are temporal. Yet your horrific sentence of torture without chance of parole or reformation, is for ever and ever and ever.

Beth, that's hideous. You serve a god of fear, and your religion is not about love, it is about fear.

Oh, and Beth, you have a religion:

"New American Standard Bible:
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

AtheistToothFairy said...

beth wrote:
Atheisttoothfairy, You said:
Beth, What most of us here will say, is that there is NO PROOF of a xtian god existing, and a whole lot of proof to indicate 'he' was all concocted by some ancient folks with a selfish agenda to propagate


Beth said:
>>What is this selfish agenda you are speaking of?
The new testament of the Holy Bible describes the first Christians of selling all they have and giving it to the poor. The Christian Bible tells us to love one another as ourselves, to forgive each other, or God will not forgive us. The bible says if someone slaps you in the face, turn the other cheek for them to do it again. The Bible teaches to take care of the poor, the orphans, and the widows. The Bible says to sacrifice your own needs and wants so that you can be a light to others. The gospel of Jesus Christ asks us to go against every desire of human nature.
------

Beth, I'm not disputing that the bible has included some moral/ethical teachings within it's pages.
One can always 'cherry pick' some good things from almost any creed, while conveniently ignoring the rotten apples. Heck, one could do that with even Hitler, if one tried hard enough.

While you talk about the bible saying we should give to the poor, I recall at one point your jesus turned a blind eye to a poor person, saying something like 'we will always have the poor', and then didn't bother to help this person.
Piss poor example of leading his flock, if you ask me.

As far as turning the other cheek goes.
1. How many wars did xtians inititate, let alone turning the other cheek as instructed.
Yeah, I'm sure you'll say that they weren't 'true xtians'. We hear that line all the time here.

2. What makes you think it's a good idea to turn the other cheek anyway?
So let's see, if someone broke into your home and was going to beat/rape/kill your child, then you should just turn the other cheek, right?

As far as the "selfish agenda" I was speaking about goes:
Well, either your bible writers were very deluded and really believed this 'god' was speaking to them the exact words to write down, or they had some political agenda going on; in which case I'm sure the attribute of 'selfish' would most likely fit quite nicely.

Beth, If I could lead you to information that your gospel writers never knew this jesus and were making it all, up for whatever agenda they had, would you read that material with an open mind? If not, then frankly, I'm wasting my time here in replying to anything else you might have to say on this matter of god/jesus.

You for sure have presented NOTHING here in your comments that has me stumped and/or having me ready to reconsider your bible book as truth again.

>>As for the proof of Bible and of Jesus walking the earth their are hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There is no dispute that a man named Jesus lived. Look it up, you will see.

I'm trying so hard not to laugh here, really I am.
Okay Beth, which apologist books have you been brainwashed by, that made these claims of 'hundreds' of references to your jesus walking the earth?

The fact is, that there are dismal few references from secular history and most of them are suspected of being tampered with.
The others were merely stating what the xtians at the time were saying about this jesus that once lived.

In a nutshell Beth, not one person outside your bible ever knew jesus and wrote about him, yet this god-on-earth character was suppose to have attracted the attention of many crowds of people, many high ranking officials as well, yet history is silent about his life.
The ONLY source of him is really your bible book and that book is just a little bit biased on the matter of his life, don't you think.
Therefore, we can NOT include your bible as proof he ever lived.
Yeah, I know, you include it, because you *desire* it to be true.

Now if you want to read a good book about who your jesus really was, I just finished a new book that researches the matter extensively.
Of course, like most xitans, you will FEAR reading such a book as I'm sure you already feel your devil beastie must have written it.
If on the other hand you think your faith can handle reading such a book, then all you gotta do is ask me for the name of it?

>Also the apostles who wrote the new testament walked with Jesus, and were all martyred for their testimony, but not before they turned thousands to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And where did you get this idea that these 12 apostles who the bible says walked with jesus, were the same folks who wrote your scriptures?
Many churches today even admit they lack proof of this and have to believe it on faith alone.
The truth is that most of your scriptures of the NT were most likely written in the 2nd century, long after your apostles were dead.
It's okay, you don't have to believe that, as I know it would put a kink in your faith to even consider such a possibility.

>>If the selfish agenda you are speaking of has to somehow do with certain churches and denominations using God to make themselves rich. That is completely against the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Bible. These people and groups of people should not be used as an example for true christian living. These people are not following Jesus, they are following their fleshly desires.

Well I'm glad your interpretation of the bible says one shouldn't be rich, however, many xtians and their leaders today, do not believe this at all.

No, I wasn't speaking of such churches, when I said the writers of your bible were selfish.
Most of us here did NOT lose our faith because of any particular way a certain church or it's members, had behaved.
We lost of faith because our brains broke out of that darn xtian bubble when we saw what was really going on with all this brainwashing from your bible dogma.


>>Also give me reputable evidence that Jesus Christ is made up, and that the Bible is false. There is much more evidence to the contrary of that statement.

As I already said, you have almost ZERO evidence of your jesus ever having lived.
In fact, your Paul only knew him in spirit form, never as a man.
The idea itself that jesus was ever a man came AFTER paul wrote his scriptures, NOT BEFORE.
The evidence that jesus was all a 'concept' and nothing more, is so overwhelming that anyone who wishes to find the truth, doesn't have to look very far these days to find it.

So if you have proof your jesus was a real human and did all those things claimed in your bible, well Beth, you'll be the very first to show us this evidence. So please, go right ahead and educate all of us -fools- here.

>>As for your needing evidence to believe in alternate dimensions, that is not my own idea. That is quantum mechanics, M-theory, and string theory. It is Science. Not some science that no one knows about, but the science that is getting closer and closer to explaining the true unity and order of the universe. Einstein devoted much of his life and study to trying to understand quantum mechanics.
The dimensions that we experience are affecting our lives right now. Time is a dimension. Space is a dimension. However we only "feel" like we experience a choice few of the many dimensions of time and space that exist. Again, these are not my ideas, this is SCIENCE and PHYSICS.

Beth, are you a science student, or physics major, or perhaps have a job researching quantum mechanics?
You seem to parrot all the buzz words fairly well, but do you really understand what they are all about?

While I agree that Time is a dimension (4th dimension) and that quantum behavior is vastly different than what we are used to, you seem to be jumping to conclusions that there are other dimensions where sentient beings could exists; god?
That is one HUGE assumption Beth and while I understand your motivation that god is hiding in some other dimension, well, wishing it to be true doesn't make it true.
You have NO evidence that would indicate that ANY life of any kind would exists in those other dimensions, let alone an all powerful god.

Even if a god did exists in say the 12th dimension, if he's not influencing tangible things on this earth, then why would we care if he's there or not.
Going one step further, if such a super being did exists in that dimension, where do you get the idea that this god is YOUR god and not one of the many many others we've had in history?

ATF: Worse, it can't even support itself, as it's filled with contradictions, bad science, bogus historical events, not to mention impossible supernatural events; events that never repeat in modern times under the scrutiny of modern skeptics

>>What contradictions do you speak of?
Bad science?
Isaiah 40:22 says "It is He who sits above the sphere of the Earth"
Hmm..this was written in 680 BC.

So Beth, you're saying that the bible is filled with good science facts and no misinformation?

Very odd that YOU chose the word SPHERE here:

The KJV says this:
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

English Standard Version (ESV)
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in

New International Version (NIV)
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

So I'm assuming you're using some fairly NEW version of the bible, one that was translated AFTER it was commonly known the earth was a globe (sphere).

Many other passages of your bible clearly infer that the earth is FLAT.
Surely you are aware of these passages and you're just playing a mind game with me here with your sphere translation, right Beth?

As far as contradictions goes Beth, there are quite a few websites that are designed to point out these MANY contradictions and problems.
The list, when put together from all these sources, is just about endless.

No, I'm not saying that they are all minor problems that can be overlooked as mere mis-translations either, as quite a number of them are quite severe in nature, and unless one does some formidable mental gymnastics, one can never reconcile them.

If you want to read about them, again, just ask away.

>>What are you talking about supernatural events? are you talking about Jesus's miracles or are you talking about things like the flood. What doesn't repeat in modern times? God said that earths judgement is reserved for the end. He promised that he would never again destroy the earth by water such as he did in the flood. The next time will be by fire.

I'm talking about ANYTHING from your bible that would be considered supernatural, take your pick Beth.
You want to talk about healing the lepers, making the blind see, raising the dead, or parting the waters, whatever you wish.
In all cases that speak of things unnatural, there is no external evidence that most of these things happened and certainly no evidence to support anything being of a miraculous nature.

Even today, we have NEVER seen a single verified miracle from your god.
This topic has been covered here heavily in fact and we're all still waiting for this proof to come forth to us.
No, we do not accept rumors and hearsay about healings either, so don't even go there.

If the earth dies by fire, it will be when the sun expands and swallows the earth up and believe me, that won't be anytime soon, so forget that coinciding with the 2nd coming event so many think is right around the corner.

>>As for Bogus Historical events, how do you think researchers came up with all the dates for the old testament? By the events, kingdoms, people, and dynastys who are talked about in it. The Bible has been said by archeologists to be one of, if not, the most historically correct books ever written.

The historical events in your bible are greatly in question by secular historians Beth.
Keep in mind when a story of fiction is written, many times it tries to place the story line in a time/place that was real.
Doing so, doesn't mean the story itself was real however.

For instance, I bet you are sure about the Moses story and the Jews being freed from Egypt and roaming the desert for decades?
Again, outside your bible, no such history exists to verify those events!!!
Even archeology has found nothing to confirm those events.

Because it's xmas week, here's a youtube video (The Reason for the Season) that will tell you some of the origins of how we landed up celebrating the birth of your jesus on Dec 25th, as well as many other interesting facts about the ancient gods and how they are so similar to your own jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELoN3OSY6hA


Find me one non-xtian archeologists that made this statement about the bible being so accurate. Good luck in that quest Beth.

>>Where do the gospel authors disagree? give me the scripture. The only instance that I have read about is whether or not those who are Jewish or Gentile need to abide by the Mosiac Law, which they all agreed that the Law is for the Jews not the Gentiles. They also agreed that the Jews not to look down on Gentiles because they are not bound by the Law. That was the only instance of there being a discrepency, but God used Paul to explain the other Jewish Disciples that the Gentiles are chosen just as the Jewish were. Where there was confusion, The Holy Spirit brought order.

Beth, you're serious here, yes?
Are you really making a case that your gospels are homogenized in their creed?
I think you better go back and read those stories again.

For example, can you reconcile the resurrection story of jesus in the NT?
I haven't met a single person yet that could do so, so good luck.

Your holy ghostie did NOTHING to bring order to the confusion you xtians have had for 2000 years. I'm still waiting for that great event to occur in fact.
I guess your ghostie friend is still a bit busy for his human pets.


>>As for christians having different ideas about what their religion is about, that is because everyone is human. Or some are mislead by false teachers.

Then your god should get his butt down here and FIX THAT PROBLEM.
Saying the differences are there because we are only human, surely would be known by the god who created us all, right.
So why is he a slacker in getting out his ONE message to all concerned, hmm.

>>The way to salvation is simple.

Oh I so disagree with that statement!
I see xtians bicker all the time about how to achieve that special salvation.
They even do so right here in post on this site.
So while YOUR version of your bible creed might seem simple to YOU, it's not for every other xtian sect out there.

>> But human reasoning sometimes muddies the water. Human reasoning to try "fix" God's message so that it conforms to their interests is what confuses the Truth.

Oh sure, blame all the human reasoning for the muddy waters, when your god buddy failed to do HIS JOB and clear up them waters.


>> Religion in itself is empty. Religion and good works does not save. Only the power of the Living God with the Sacrifice of the Savior saves. All that other stuff that goes with "religion" is meaningless. The Bible makes this very clear.

The bible is anything but 'clear' Beth!!
I don't know how you can even assert that to us.
Religion is empty for one good reason.....the universe is empty of your god.

>>The Romans wrote about Jesus Christ as well as about his crucifixion.

Please give us a list of those Romans who knew all about this jesus and his journerys and miracles workings.
I won't be holding my breath on that request though !!

>>The respected Roman historian Tacitus wrote of Nero’s falsely blaming “persons commonly called Christians” for the fiery destruction of Rome. According to Tacitus, these Christians were followers of “Christus” (Tacitus’ rendering of Christ) who was “put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.” There are other mentionings of Jesus besides this.

I'm sure I can find many websites that deal with this issue, but here's just one to get you started on your Tacitus idea:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm


>>There are not many, but remember, his preachings were only for about four years, and he only went to one people, the Jews. There would not be many writings outside of the Jewish community.

Considering how POPULAR your jesus is claimed to have been in your bible, there should be MUCH written about him by the historians of that time period, yet they are mostly silent, even when the subject material they are writing about would clearly beg for this jesus miracle worker inclusion.
I could ask many more similar question about the missing history of your jesus's life, but why bother, as you seem to have made up your mind and won't listen to reason.
I know, all our reason comes from that horny devil guy, oh yeah.

>> Where did these apostles for Christ come from if there was no Christ?

They were made up and expanded upon by each new subsequent author.
Most of the things about your jesus were stolen from the OT, even the very things he pretended to say from his own mouth.
The entire story is nothing more than a clever fabrication Beth and you're just not able to realize it YET.


>>So you say that they all conspired together, sold everything, and were murdered for their own selfish purposes?

You assume here that I actually believe what the bible says in this regard...I do NOT.
As far as I'm concerned, they never lived, let alone conspired together, sold everything and got killed for their belief in jesus.
You believe that is the case, because you swallowed your bible story, hook line and sinker.

>> I can see you questioning Jesus's right to call himself the son of God, but to say he didn't walk the earth at all, and is made up for whatever unfathomable reason is really stretching it. And I don't care what biased book you read to get your information either. Why don't you read a few books on the reliability of the bible and then make your own judgement.

No, it's not stretching things at all Beth.
At BEST, your jesus was just some man who did a few clever magic tricks, but I personally doubt even this much was real.
There are MANY reasons to believe he never lived.
Not to mention, that name jesus was as common as John is today and could fit anyone of that time period.

Besides, how did he land up with the name 'jesus', when it was foretold in the OT that he would NOT have that name?

>>Also about UFO's. I really don't think that we can compare UFO's or Aliens to God.

I think the case of UFO's are a perfect example in fact, of how folks can believe without credible evidence. Such is the case for you bible believers, as you have even less evidence than the UFO sects have.


>> I realize that you are creating an anology, but UFO's and Aliens don't claim to have created human life or to be the way to salvation through a book that has been written over the course of 4000 years.

There are many alien believer folks that also hold a belief that aliens 'seeded' the earth with custom made humans.
So in a way, they would be a sort of 'god' if that were true.

As far as salvation goes:
Those who feel the need to salvation are kidding themselves, big time.
There is no god to save anyone and none of us are guilty of any god-sins either.
I have nothing to be sorry for where a god is concerned.
If I screw up, then I face the human music and fix things.
I don't ignore the problem by asking god to forgive my goof-up and then go along my merry way as if nothing had been done wrong.
If we mess up, we pay up, just that simple Beth.

>>I believe that it is different in that everything that happens is not his will. Jesus said that those who follow the will of the Father in Heaven will inherit eternal life.

Don't us bad atheist also inherit eternal life to Beth.
That is, unless you're one of those special xtian sects that believes all us baddy's just die instead.

And why would I want to follow the 'will' of this 'father in heaven'.
Did you actually read that Old Testament Beth?
Do you see what kind of god you got going there?

I sure wouldn't want to do THAT god's bidding.
He's truly a wack job!!
If he was human, he'd be put in a straight jacket and carted away to a padded room.

>> Not everything that happens is his will, therefore we all are not controlled by him, there are all different factors involved. We have free will and fleshly desires. Satan influences what goes on in the World as well.

Yeah, and your precious god let's this devil not only live, but let's him fuck with us, just so we can land up in hell.
Nice god alright....NOT.

>> God created this earth for human life.

And what gives you that idea Beth?
Maybe after the big bang made it all, your alien god just found himself a planet that could support carbon based life forms and so put us here.
Please don't tell us that you believe that god made everything in 6 days, or even 6000 years....You're not really ONE OF THOSE, are you Beth?
If you are, then I now know that you know nothing about science Beth.


>>So that he could create a life form to talk with and enjoy the company. We were GIVEN the earth and GIVEN DOMINION over everything.

Oh, in that case then we have dominion over the devil and his demons to, right Beth.
Oh goody, I always wanted my own pet demon to play with.

Also, why does god NEED human company?
Does god get lonely, as well as sad, angry and jealous, hmmm.
And if god got lonely after all those eons of time without us, doesn't that mean that your god must have changed to now need us?
Oh gosh, wait a second, god says he's always been the same and will continue to be...OOPS.

>>However, he wanted us to have our own minds, to choose our own destinys. If he didn't give us the choice, then we would be ruled by a control freak for a God.

Yeah, so?
If he's the type of god who can toss folks into hell, then I'm sure with his style of ethics, that he wouldn't have a problem making a bunch of worshipping robots to be a control freak over.
Beth, open your eyeballs and see what's wrong with this concept you are asking us to swallow here, okay.

>>Our love for him would be forced and fake. He wanted to create beings that could love him and understand him for who he is. A Father. He wanted us to have a chance to Love freely. He gave us life. It is a gift that he gave freely.

Oh so now god NEEDS LOVE, does he?
Does he die without this love or feel great pain or sadness?
Your god sure sounds a whole lot like us humans for some reason.
Could it be that humans created their gods and not the other way around Beth?
Oh noooo, how could that be, said Beth.


>>He created us in innocence, and without fault. We had no knowledge of Good and Evil. However, Good and Evil did exist. Because God is perfect and Good, no one can be equal. Therefore there will always be two sides.

So if adam and eve screwed up and it wasn't god's fault, why didn't he kill them and make two new people to TEST OUT in his garden.
Perhaps the darn talking snake wouldn't have fooled the next two arrivals, right Beth?

>>He did not put the serpent in the Garden and walk away. Evil came to try and destroy good. Satan wanted to destroy God's creation.

So your god knew that satan would try and destroy his creation, but god chose to stick us on the same planet as this satan snake anyway, right Beth.
Now WHY do you suppose your god would do such a thing to us, hmmm.

>>He lied to them, and they chose to believe him.

So you're saying adam and eve had lived long enough to gain enough wisdom, such that they easily knew the talking snake was trying to pull one over on them?
Just how long were these brand new adult humans alive before the snake showed up and who taught them all the things that a life experience normally would give us?

Sounds to me like adam and eve were kinda brand new, like just made recently.
So they were really 'babes in the woods' when god let his serpent have some fun with them, yes?
God is one sicko daddy, if you ask this daddy.

You also say that adam and eve 'chose to believe him'.
What exactly does that mean Beth?
Are you saying they didn't know the snake was lying and chose to believe his lie, meaning they didn't realize it was a lie?
If that's the case, then how can god fault this naive couple for believing a lie?

If some huckster milked a person out of say a few hundred bucks in some scam, is it now the victims fault or the hucksters?
I'm sure this innocent person didn't decide the huckster was lying and the would hand over the money regardless.

>>They may have been innocent but they were not unintelligent.

Again, where did they get all this intelligence from?
How do you know how smart they were Beth.
How much WISDOM could they possibly have had in dealing with evil tricky beings at that point in time, hmm?
Maybe god created them really STUPID instead and that is why they fell for satan's trickery.
Any idea what they IQ's might have been Beth?

Don't you see that whole Eden story is impossible to have happened?
It's a gosh darn FAIRYTALE and nothing more Beth.

>> They knew what God had warned them about, but they wanted to be equal with him.

I see nothing wrong with knowing the things that god knows.
I don't blame that first human pair for wanting knowledge, as knowledge is a GOOD THING to have, which is proven by the fact that most xitans lack it, and it shows, GREATLY here in their posts to us.

>> We play serpent and Eve every day. Pornography, murder, sex before marriage, abortion, child abuse, divorce, selfishness, addictions, rape, war, "religion". All these are things that cause pain and death.

Define murder for us and I'm assuming murder is bad, yes?
Okay, so how come your god can MURDER whenever he feels like it then?
Oh, cause he's god, that's right.

Is their something wrong with sex before marriage Beth?
I see nothing wrong with trying things out before buying them [g]
I see nothing wrong with divorce, when all else fails to work or when abuse is involved.
Oh, but god does, doesn't he Beth.

If war is bad, then why did the OT god make war so OFTEN?

Speaking of addictions Beth.
Did you know your feelings for your god are actually an addiction?
They are no different than gambling, smoking, drinking or drugs.
You can't give them up because they make you FEEL SOOOO GOOD.

>>But God's world is very different from the one we live in. You are either God's or you are not. If you don't believe that he exists and according to the Bible if you don't believe that Christ came in the flesh then you are Satan's.

Fine, then we belong to this Satan character.
So if god let him live after his little heavenly rebellion, (from a perfect heaven I might add here) then god could just banish satan and his demons to some distant planet, along with us atheist.
I'm sure we ex-xtians wouldn't be much trouble off in some other far away galaxy and wouldn't be able to influence his heavenly population either.
But nooo, your god see's fit to build a hell so he can torture millions of folks for all eternity.
No revenge feelings in your god, none at all.

Your god Beth, is a spoiled rotten CHILD brat, nothing more!!
If he doesn't get his way, he does far more than just pout.
Oh no, when he stomps his big clod feet, humans pay the piper.

>>You are either influenced by fleshly desires or the desires and will of God. If you are not cleansed of all sin and evil thoughts, then how can you reside with a God who is Perfect?

Please define PERFECT for us?
You say your god is perfect, so what does that mean Beth?
How do you know he's really perfect?
By what standards can we know he's perfect.......just cause he says so?

BTW....I have no sins that need soap and a washcloth to cleanse away.
I am selling some sin-soap however, in case you're interested in buying some?

>>The law of conservation of energy states that energy is neither created or destroyed. The earth started with the same amount of energy and contains the same today. However Energy can be converted. But the energy that enlivened it is still alive - somewhere. Energy doesn't die, it transforms. When we die our bodies decompose and give off gases in the form of energy. Our flesh passes away. However, our thoughts do not pass away. The Bible tells us this. Our Spirit,(aetheisttoothfairy I know you will hate this)is transformed from the us that is inside our bodies, to the us that is outside our bodies. Our Spirit is energy made up of atoms, protons, etc. that converts to the world of all reality and is able to experience all dimensions in this world and the next.

OH BOY !!
First off, your idea of conservation of energy is flawed.

As far as the earth itself goes, the earth get new energy from the sun continuously.
So in that regard, the earth is not a closed system, contrary to what xtians believe when they talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Now, you say that our thoughts do not pass away, right?
You say this based on the fact we can't destroy matter/energy, but only transform one to the other etc..
Fine then, let's go with that idea.
What are your thoughts made up of Beth?
Trust me, they do not exist separately from your brain, in some soul perhaps.

Thoughts are inside your brain and just like in a computer, they are made up of electrical impulses and their various connections.
Your body does indeed contain a certain amount of energy; made up of electrical, chemical and heat energy.
Your thoughts themselves are NOT energy. You can't harness thought energy and make it do work.
You can however realize that your thoughts use chemical and electrical energies in order to FORM THEM.

So what happens when our bodies die.
In a nutshell, every energy system shuts-down, plain and simple.
Whatever remaining energy that existed in you of the chemical and electrical types, will be given off as HEAT and that process continues until all energy is expended.
There is simply no known mechanism that could postulate the idea of how your thoughts (or memory) could transform into some form of energy/matter that would be reminiscent of your former self.

As far as the idea that we have souls goes:
There is a recent book done by a woman researcher that did some heavy investigations into finding any proof that a soul might exists in any mammal, including the human mammal.
I won't go into all the details of what she looked into, but I will say this much.

The human body does not lose ANY weight upon dying, so if we have a soul it weighs NOTHING.
There is also no known energy escaping the body when it dies, other than heat.
No one has ever seen a soul flying away from a dying body, by using any technology available to us.

Because humans are curious creatures, there have been many investigations into the idea of us having a soul that lives on and so far, as much as folks desired to find evidence of such, not one has to date. It's sure not for a lack of trying that they haven't.

Now you say that our souls are made up of atoms, protons etc..
If that were true and the soul leaves the body upon death, then because atoms have weight to them, a weight loss would be detected, but yet is NOT.
So if there is a soul, it's sure not made up of matter, but something ELSE.


>>God's will is that everyone will turn to him.

Just like any dictator worth his salt, would want.

>He wants to give you wisdom and knowledge.

Now Beth, how on earth can you infer such a thing, when he faulted adam and eve for trying to obtain knowledge that he did NOT want them to have.
Also, your bible severely lacks knowledge, unless you mean knowledge of your god that is.

>He wants you to be content and joyous and peaceful.

And I'm sure us non-xtians will find his hell plenty joyous.
Do you happen to know the party schedule down in hell btw?
I'd hate to miss a good party ya know.

>>When you give you life to him, and trust him to impart his own will upon you, it is the best life that could ever be given you.

Oddly enough, we have MANY ex xtians here that found their former xtian lives anything but good, let alone 'best'.

>>You are free from all burdens. Jesus said to give all of your pain and hurt to him, for his burden is light. He will carry it for you, just as he carried the cross.

Yeah, I've seen all the evidence that your god is helping take away the burdens of his flock.
Okay, so I lied then, as I've NEVER seen any such thing.

In fact, you xtians suffer the same problems as the rest of humanity, so I guess your god is simply testing everyone without helping anyone, but his heart was in the right place...NOT.

>>This is your choice. It does you no good not to believe in God, but believing can transform you beyond anything that is humanly possible. I know, it happened to me.

It does us plenty of good to NOT believe in your mythical sky god.
We are our own person now.
We don't bow down to any invisible gods like you wish to do.
If this transformation was anything to write home to mom about, then we'd see plenty of xtians doing so great that we'd all be jealous of them.

I don't know any xtians I'm jealous about....does anyone else here??

"Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst.

So god provides them all with plenty of food and drink, does he?
Perhaps you should pay more attention the nightly news Beth, cause you're living in a bubble for sure.

>>The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.

Yeah, god does like to take away that sun now and then.
Like when he sends hurricanes to destroy various cities, like New Orleans, which I'm SURE had plenty of xtians within it.
Personally, I think those folks would have rather faced a scorching sun, than them flood waters, but that's just my personal opinion talking here.

>>"But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." (Isaiah 40:31)

WOW, you mean if I believe in your lord, I get to fly like superman...COOL!!
Gosh and to think, I turned down that superman costume I was once offered.

It does make sense though Beth, about the flying stuff, because we know that god lives in the clouds and how else would we get up to him, unless he makes us fly.

I wonder how often a 747 aircraft has had to do an emergency dive, to avoid running into the sky god, hmm. Perhaps god didn't foresee that we would one day invent planes, when he decided to take up residence up in them clouds.


Beth, I realize I've been sarcastic at times in this reply, but some of the things you "parrot" out just beg for some fun sarcasm.

Seriously though, you seem to be intelligent but you're wasting your intelligence on matters that exist only in a fictitious world that you've been brainwashed to believe in.
It's obvious that you greatly fear your own death and need to convince yourself that death is not the end. You most likely were raised to believe in the xtian god, so it was easy for you to use that belief to calm your fear of death.
So you started out by assuming your bible god was real and like most xtians do, you only seek out evidence that will support your chosen god and ignore anything to the contrary.

While most of us here seem stubborn in our denials of your god, that is because we took the time to do the research and look at BOTH sides of the coin, not just one.
If you or some other xtian could show us credible evidence that your god exists, I'm sure we would be willing to take a look at it in an unbiased way.
However, if such evidence existed, surely it would have surfaced by now, considering how many xtians there are out there and how many have tried to prove their faith with evidence, but fail every time to do so.

Face it Beth, you have beliefs that make you feel all warm and cozy, but can't stand up to even mild scrutiny. The sad part of that is that you'll waste your life pursuing a 'ghost' that you'll never catch.
In the meantime, you'll miss out on all the things you could do, that you could be, all because you fear disappointing this sky god of yours.

I doubt you'll ever reply to this, so good luck and perhaps one day you'll find out that you were as brainwashed as we used to be.


ATF (Who thinks that Matrix movie was more telling about the xtian blind mind, than xtians realize it to be)

AtheistToothFairy said...

FOR BETH,

I just noticed that some anonymous person posted a very long list of bible 'problems'.
I've seen many of these items before, but even this lengthy list is only a shadow of what a full list would look like.

Take a peek and see how well your assertion that your bible is homogenous, pans out.

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2002/07/christianity-sucks.php#c3942518899189352732


ATF (who knows this list is only the very tip of the huge iceberg of problems)

Bexxas said...

You can neither prove or disprove the existence of God. In the words of Emmanual Kant, "I have therefore found it necessary to limit knowledge in order to make room for faith." And science cannot disprove religion, just as religion cannot disprove science. They are two different things, one of this world, one not. One can be comprehended by man wish his sinful nature, the other not.

Astreja said...

Bexxas: "[Science and religion] are two different things, one of this world, one not. One can be comprehended by man with his sinful nature, the other not."

Prove that things "not of this world" actually exist outside our subjective minds. If religious experiences have no referent in Reality-As-We-Know-It, their value is forever confined to, and constrained by, our own imaginations.

I, for one, choose to imagine gods that could be real, somewhere in the physical universe, and whose company is both pleasant and educational.

As for "sinful nature" -- Nope, ain't buying that. There are good actions and bad actions, as perceived by (again) our subjective minds and our collective but still subjective community standards. Actions do not "stick" indelibly to people; we do something, and it's done. (We are, however, frequently called upon to deal with the effects of our actions.)

WhateverLolaWants said...

So, bexxas... limiting knowledge is a good thing? I don't agree. It's not something I would do voluntarily, and certainly not so I could just take something on faith for the value of taking something on faith. When religion makes scientific claims that are false (like the value of pi being 3... or maybe talking donkeys and resurrection of the dead), then part of that religion is false. And doesn't that make you wonder what else is false, what other mistakes and untruths made their way into an all-knowing god's book? And I don't buy that those parts of the Bible aren't important and yet others are... by what criteria can you say that?