6/20/2002                                                                                       View Comments

NO TRUE CHRISTIANS!

There is no doubt in my mind that there is not one true Christian on the planet, and I can prove it. There are several signs of a true believer that are very plain in the Bible. Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context.

Let's consider these statements supposedly written by the Apostle John, otherwise known as the disciple whom Jesus loved, as he quoted his master and his God:

1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2) John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
3) John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This seems pretty plain to me. If you love the Lord, you keep his commandments. Simple!

John the Apostle emphasized this particular aspect of authentic Christianity here:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I cannot imagine a single Christian anywhere in the world denying the plain words of these particular statements which are echoed elsewhere throughout scripture. So what is my point?

This is my point:

I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

I do not expect to receive even one donation, even though $10.00 in US currency is almost nothing. Even though my motives can easily be interpreted as selfish, or blasphemous, or even evil, the plain teaching of these passages is that Christians should not resist evil, and should go ahead and give to anyone who asks, not regarding the motives of whoever is asking. God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian.

It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM.

As I said, I don't expect a single dime from this scriptural request, for the simple reason that I do not believe anyone really believes the Bible, and there are no real Christians. Christianity, like every other religion, is only popular to the point where it gives something to the adherents. When it asks something that seems unreasonable, like giving an obvious apostate exchristian website some money, well, then common survival sense kicks in and the cash stays in the wallet regardless of clear instructions.

The Lord commands Christians to give to everyone who asks, even evil people. Of this there is no doubt, but I will receive nothing for my honest and open request - why?


June 27, 2002
It seems I have to make a slight correction here! There is ONE true Christian out there. I received one contribution in the mail today of $10.00. Of course the fact that she is my natural sister should have nothing to do with disallowing the contribution, as she is a Christian.

SO, I stand corrected, there is ONE real Christian.

Sept 2002 finds another generous soul out in cyberspace

I was challenged by a visitor to the site who "dared me" saying he would donate to my site the $10.00 I was asking for if I would dontate to a mutually agreed upon charity. The deal he suggested was that I would donate a sum of money and he would match that sum and add the ten dollars. I suggested MDA as a place to put our money where our mouths, or typing fingers, were and he agreed. I received his check in the mail, forwarded it on to MDA with my own donation of one hundred dollars and had a thank you note sent to him with a receipt of his donation.

I am not sure what point he was trying to make with this wager, or if any point at all was being made, but MDA benefited from the exercise to the tune of two hundred dollars, so something good did come of all the rhetoric this time.

In fact, it was kind of fun!

Perhaps we will do it again!

534 comments:

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Just Me said...

I believe even though I was taught not to, raised to argue, to cross examine, to ridicule and turn away from anything purporting to be of Christianity or any other organised religion.

I believe because if there is nothing to believe in, if this is the be all and end all, what are we here for? what is the purpose of creating something so beautiful, so vibrant if not for something better after?

I believe because history has proven time and again that what we know or think we know is not everything, that events have taken place that support the bible, not the other way around as some argue

It is our greatest gift that we question and decide for ourselves, it is in our nature to argue and question, the bible says he should be humble as sheep, not follow like dumb sheep.

I spent a life time questioning, searching and finding out for myself what is real and what is not, God exists not because man created him, but created a belief system around him that they feel fits him, that is true faith.

Finding the truth beneath the 'faith', that is true joy.

When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible. I witnessed the greatness of man in the depths of his trials and I saw and felt the majesty of a being so incredible that it touches you in a place reserved for that purpose, that is what being small is beneath a sky and a faith so large we cant understand it.

To understand it is to break heaven.

If that makes me a Christian, so be it.

Anonymous said...

Rev. Pasha: "Yes Christianity came from Europe and Africa, but the Native American people were not atheists. The NA held to a Great Spirit, and minor god/esses aplenty, as did almost every other tribe/faction/race of man on the planet dating back since the time of cave paintings… circa 30,000 BC… belief in god/s is not the new kid on the block… atheism is."

How eruditious, now, can you explain the difference between the majority of "all" previous gods in history, and the christian god? I am sure you are well versed, in these differences. Once you do that, come back and lets talk about which spiritual ideaology is the new kid on the block, there bubba.

Atheism, is older than christianity, and its unique god concept, vis a vis the Roman Emperor Constantine I and a gov't sponsored clergy.

That aside, christianity "is" the genesis for the "bloodiest" of "all" religions, even to this day. Let me know, when you have educated yourself on your own religion.

Rev. Pasha said...

Atheistic views started to emerge in India, then spread to Greece. Probably the first sign of skeptic thought comes from the Rig-Veda, a text which is thought to have been written around 1000 BC. The philosophy promoted in it could be said to be atheistic by omission, as shows us this creation hymn :

"Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born and whence came this creation? The gods were born after this world's creation. Then, who can know from whence it has arisen? None know whence creation has arisen and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heaven, he only knows, or happily, he may know not".

Around 500 BC, Buddhism, inspired by the Rig-Veda, became a theistic philosophy. (Believing is god/s and spirits)

'1000 BC' ... is hardly pre-Judean, and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around, thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid. And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events.

As for difference between Christianity and others, that is easy, Christianity is the god mythos I have chosen as best for me. Basically they all share common elements such as one creator god, or 'father', a lesser god who risks his immortality to make life better for humans… Jesus or Prometheus - and a malevolent god/ess who seeks to destroy all that the father had made… such as Loki and Baphomet. It becomes a matter of eeny-meeny-miny-moe… and there are precious few peoples in history who have not picked one.

You can find reasons to hate anything Anon. you use harsh definitives as if that vindicates your claim… it only makes me chuckle. Any race, religion or government can be blamed for something and I am sure you fit into one of them, just as we all do… so finger pointing is senseless, if not childish. One of my great uncles built the furnaces for German death camps, does that mean I owe every Jew I meet an apology? No… because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.

Shoshone said...

Just Me: "I believe because if there is nothing to believe in, if this is the be all and end all, what are we here for? what is the purpose of creating something so beautiful, so vibrant if not for something better after?"

Most of us would agree, that what we have here is beautiful, and its what we make it for the most part as humanity.

You need to go to a christian web site, and ask them why a god who makes such a beautiful universe, to include humanity, would make such a deplorable hell, to torture his beautiful creation for eternity. Let me know, if you get an answer, thanks.

Bentley said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Shoshone said...

Rev. Pasha: "'1000 BC' ... is hardly pre-Judean,"

First of all, Judean, is not "christian", there was no "Christ" in Judaism. The Tanakh, with its Torah "never" mentions a christ, Jesus, etc. If you don't agree, here's a link to a Rabbi...

Rev. Pasha: "...and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around,"

Written language? You're kidding, here, ask a PhD what the oldest written form of language is...

http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/ask-ling/oldest.html

This year is 2006, subtract 6,000 years, and you are suggesting the bible, specifically the Old Testament, was written around 4,006-BCE.

Archeological evidence suggests around 3200-BCE, not as you suggest 4,006-BCE there's almost a thousand year difference there, bud.

"According to historians, the Old Testament was composed between the 5th century BC and the 2nd century BC, though parts of it, such as the Torah, and Song of Deborah (Judges 5), date back much earlier."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

Rev. Pasha: "...thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid."

Again, Judaic followers were not "like minded" with those of the first christians, read some history, its why there were was great persecution.

Christianity wasn't established until Constantine I, created a council to establish Christianity as a state religion. That is when it was officially established. If a Christian wants to claim that Jesus' name was used to establish a Christian type following, then the earliest you are going to find, is in the epistles of Paul, and they date mid-first century CE, so... when did Atheism start up? As you said, much earlier than mid-first century BCE.

There are Atheistic attributes of belief, that pre-exist 5th Century BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Much earlier, than Christianity, in its most wild of dreams. Atheists didn't change their views, everyone else just changed the names of the gods, christianity being one who chose YHWH over El. Of course, you know this, its it the bible, right.

Rev. Pasha: "And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events."

"Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of belief in a deity or deities."

The absence of belief, doesn't necessarily mean "denying" the existence, as you stated... some don't care to "accept" the belief, period. That's not denying, that's not acceptance, I know... its makes sense... just let it sink in for a while.

You have represented well, the level of knowledge you hold, from which you draw your beliefs. I could sit here all day, and attempt to educate you, but... it would mean more, if you did it on your own.

And, by the way, you never replied to the difference between YHWH and all other gods before its inception as the new god over the Judean god El.

.:webmaster:. said...

This is a facinating discussion, but the topic here is obeying your Jesus' command to give to all who ask.

May I please have $10.00 Mr. Pasha? Please?

You can use the PayPal button.

Thanks.

Shoshone said...

Again, Rev. Pasha, here is the link for a Rabbi...

www.jewsforjudaism.org

I'm sure you are open minded enough to discuss your religious beliefs, with a Rabbi... right.

.:webmaster:. said...

RPasha: "belief in god/s is not the new kid on the block… atheism is."

WM: T-Rex is not the new kid on the block, humanity is. Or better: Neanderthal Man is not the new kind on the block, we are.

Or maybe this: Belief in RA is not the new kid on the block, Christianity is.

Sunday School logics is funny.

boomSLANG said...

Rev said: "One of my great uncles built the furnaces for German death camps, does that mean I owe every Jew I meet an apology? No… because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit."

My great grandmother, "Eve", took a bite of an apple because she was tempted by a talking snake, does that mean I owe every god I never meet an apology? No...because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.

Bentley said...

To Rev. P.

I think people need religion and beliefs to acquire some form of recognition and entitlement, for example you Rev. Pasha I presume, were not born with the prefix Rev. on your birth certificate, now were you, hmmmm?

But by prescribing to a religion or belief, this allows you to be recognized somewhere in your religious sect and other esteemed places in society, ya?

People will boldly boast, even when not asked, "I am a Christian!" Why? Because they are looking for some form of recognition and entitlement from other people, and that society has been brainwashed to believe that to claim a religious title it is to be viewed as admirable.

There is something lacking in one's life when they have to cling on to self-acclaimed religious titles.

You sir, have found out that by claiming a religious title, people will bend and sway to your every command, you get your much desired respect that you would not normally get, just out of their Bible endorsed fear, yet by your claiming a self-elected title you have found out people will bow down to you and give you extra recognition that you would not normally receive, you have found that by claiming a religious title, people will go out of their way just to appease the Rev. Pasha.

If being a "True Christian" has any real meanings to anyone, Jesus said to deny yourself, meaning putting yourself last, yet you've self-elected yourself to a position with a religious title, you've jumped ahead of the line by putting yourself first, this alone shows the total hypocrisy in all religious institutions.

Maybe I'm wrong and that God and Jesus and all the heavenly angels made a consensus one day to vote you into Earthly high counsel, but for some reason according to my own built-in peripheral senses, I have a feeling that you've elected your own self to religious high counsel.

To deny this means, there is no truth in the Rev. Pasha!

I'm not spewing hatred, Christians view Truth as hatred, because Truth goes against their own personal religious agenda.

.:webmaster:. said...

Just Me: "I believe because if there is nothing to believe in, if this is the be all and end all, what are we here for? what is the purpose of creating something so beautiful, so vibrant if not for something better after?"

So, without a God, human life has no meaning? Is that the point here? Okay, so that means humans need a god to give their lives meaning. Right? Only by believing in a god, do people acuqire meaning, and without such a god, life is meaningless?

Well, then what gives God's life meaning? If you say that HIS life has intrinsic meaning, then you're admitting that there is the possiblity of life with inherent meaning. If a god can be assumed to have meaning without acquiring it from outside of itself, then why would you assume that human life is incapable of having instrinsic meaning and worth?

Are you following me here? Why do think human life is worthless without a god, yet has worth with a god? Can you explain where that thought comes from?


Just Me: "When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible."

WM: WOW! I've got to see the pictures! Send them to me, and I'll post them right here.

Bentley said...

Ouch!!! Boomslang, you sunk Rev.P's illogic down with the Titanic...lol that was great!!!

Bentley said...

Yeah Just Me, didn't give us much details on his archaeological dig where he stood on the pinnacle of the Ark and witnessed this transformation of spiritual awareness. I wonder why not? I'm sure he'll come back and say, well we just would not believe him anyway...lol Maybe so...lol

Shoshone said...

Rev. P: "As for difference between Christianity and others, that is easy, Christianity is the god mythos I have chosen as best for me. Basically they all share common elements such as one creator god, or 'father', a lesser god who risks his immortality to make life better for humans… Jesus or Prometheus - and a malevolent god/ess who seeks to destroy all that the father had made… such as Loki and Baphomet. It becomes a matter of eeny-meeny-miny-moe… and there are precious few peoples in history who have not picked one."

Well, since this is what you have provided, let me enlighten.

The god YHWH, was per most scholars, arguably the first "Universal" Supreme Creator God, all previous gods before, were natural type gods, or Supreme gods that favored one specific group of people only.

Thus, all of the gods previously, to include the Indian gods, were 'natural' gods, that had natural traits assigned to them. The Christian god, is "supernatural", its arguably the first god, said to not exist in the natural reality, yet, christians in a natural reality, say they know a supernatural entity - its the most absurd of all religions. Christianity, went off the deep end with its god, and christians today, have no clue about the difference between their own god and previous gods that were natural, gods that could be known and understood in Nature - especially by the Native American Indians.

Anonymous said...

I think Rev. P's main concern right now is trying to get out of sending in the $10.

Shoshone said...

Yep, looks like Rev. P, "naturally" wants to claim that a supernatural god exists - its absurd. Its also apparent, that Rev. P., wants to pick and choose which verses in the bible to follow, and interpret on his own.

Rev. P., is a classic example of someone trying to "force" reality, into a box, predefined by his personal desires. Its obvious that Rev. P., "desires" to spend his money in his "own" particular way, and thus, will twist the bible to conform to that personal desire.

Rev. Pasha said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
.:webmaster:. said...

Actually, Rev Pasha, around here I matter, as do all ex-Christians.

Your comment has been deleted.

Bentley said...

Thank you WM, Another self-elected, self-acclaimed religious high counsel hypocrite bites the dust, amazing the power of religious mind control.

If we could self-elect ourselves to sway people peoples thoughts based upon our beliefs, well that is exactly the whole problem with all religions. TC

Next victim...lol

Nao said...

No matter who says what...all you try to do is to twist the word of God...and it's all your brain can do..it's true. You have to search and know God with your heart..otherwise you can only rebell...because you can't grasp him with your brain.And then when you actually feel his presense and love you can understand your sinfulness..and how he still loves you.And that love is so strong that you fall apart..and all you can do is cry..because you just can take that undeserved love and mercy he has for you. You first have to realize your sinfullness to understand what God is doing for you. You should first see who you truly are..that you are just a mote in the Universe but God still cares for you...that is what you have to understand. You can't know God with your brain, and I am sure that you ("exchristians") have never known him with your heart that's why you are here. you are NOT ExChristians..you have never been a true christian(which exists)...otherwise if you have ever understood him with your heart just ones in your life..you could not leave him .Because he only can fill that void inside of you. I don't think you have ever experienced God's work in you life...I don't think you have ever let him into your heart, so why are you saying you WERE christians...just simply knowing God's word or going to church doesn't make you one.I honestly don't think that we are 'dealing' with exchristians here..because you know that's what I don't believe in..that there are EXchristians.If you ever were you always will be.

Warnepiece said...

Nao, do yourself a favor and re-read your posting, only put the word “Allah” in every place you wrote “God” and see if you still agree with it. What makes you think we weren’t true Christians? In your infinite wisdom, you just know that we didn’t really have him in our hearts? How do you know this? You don’t know diddley about me, or anyone else here, yet you seem to think you can make an instant assessment on our own belief that for some included true hard-core Christianity for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years! Several times in your posting you start a sentence with “I don’t think…”. Yes, it is quite clear that, as a Christian, you don’t!

boomSLANG said...

Nao, this may come as shock to you, but you are NOT a Christian. Nope, Christians don't exist. How do I "know" this?...because I "feel in my heart" that there is only ONE True Goddess, and her name is Isis! Just look around you and you see evidence of her glorious ways! She's always there for you!(except for around the first of the month) Y'sir, Isis is the One True Goddess! Therefore, you can't possibly be a Christian if Isis is the One True Goddess--'no way in hell! Do you see my "logic"? And hey, you might find it ironic, but like you, I obtain ALL my knowledge with my "heart"....that's how I know so much about you, other people, and the fact that Isis is the One True Goddess. Again---because why? ...that's right!...because I "feel it in my heart". So thanks for the advice, Nao!...I will continue to "think" with my "heart".

Praise Isis!

Bentley said...

To be a "TRUE-CHISTIAN"(TM)!

If your heart is crying out to God and God is tugging on your heart strings, then you must let God touch your heart, then you must open the eyes of your heart, then you must let God open the door to your heart, so God can search your heart, then you must invite God or Jesus into your heart, then you must let God lift your heart, hopefully you do not have a heavy heart, or your heart is not carrying a heavy burden, hopefully your heart does not ache for God, if so, then you must pour your heart out to God or Jesus, because God knows exactly what is in your heart, you must surrender your heart to God or Jesus, hopefully God will touch the bottom of your heart, then you must turn the rudder of your heart toward God, hopefully God will steal your heart, you must do what your heart tells you to do, hopefully your heart has not waxed cold, if so, then you will have a bitter heart and God will have a broken heart, hopefully God will bless your heart, what ever happens you must get your heart right with God, hopefully you do not have an angry heart.

My heart goes out to all you infidel sinners!!!!

Warnepiece said...

Man, Stanley...that is so good, I'm gonna see if I can turn that into a secular Country Western song. I'll just use "Dawg" where ever it says Jesus, and "my woman", or "my truck", where it says God. Or maybe I'll just leave it as is and call it "Every Fundy has a Hungry Heart" (Sorry Springsteen!)

Alan said...

Nao:

Are you trying to convince us that one is a Christian for life, or are you trying to convince yourself? And why would God give you the most advanced thinking machine there is (a brain,) then make not using it a requirement to know him? You're basically saying that you have to make yourself stupid in order to be a Christian.

Anonymous said...

Ye must become as small babes, easily led around and gullible and not much intelligence and very naive.

nao said...

Again what you did is twisting words. No matter if it's God's word my word any other christian's word. All you can do is to mock and twist.
Oh and I DO THINK...but there are things that I shouldn't think...and it applies to you too.
NO matter what...one day(at the latest-when you die) you will know for cetain that God exist..and hell does too. I know that it is really good for your flesh to think that there is no God because it shots up your conscience when you indulge in sin-oh weight you don't think that sin exist...that why do you ever get a feeling in you heart that it's wrong..because though you are numb..it still may hit you sometimes.
Another thing...how do you think the world was created? Think about it's beauty all the flowers..animals...etc. I am not gonna go into it in depth because you should know it all...do you ever wonder? What do you belive in ..og THE BIG BOOM--awh. That's even more redicioulus that believing in GOD. That's too sound like a fairy tale. I know that the Bible can sound like that..but there is a lot of evidence why it's true...and also why other religions aren't. Thing like none of the other religions knew before that the Earth was round..it was stated in the Bible way before we knew it..but that's just one and there is many. Also today we can scientifically prove a lot of things from the Bible. Sometimes you should look around on the other side while you put aside your judgement for a while. Another thing...just look at how you write and how we do...which looks more evil?

.:webmaster:. said...

The True Christian™ looks forward to the day when all the skeptical unbelievers will be roasting in a sadistically horrific eternal torture pit provided by their unconditionally loving god. Christians will look at down on those who mocked their beliefs and will celebrate in seeing the everlasting agony on every infidel face. Oh, sweet glory divine! Praise Jesus!

Remember all, God will never let any of us die. We have a choice: throw yourself into his loving arms and place your head upon his breast, or face His jealous, angry, punishing wrath for eternity! Turn now, for his mercy endures forever, well, actually, it's his wrath that endures forever. So REPENT YOU FILTHY SCUM! HELL IS YOUR FUTURE! YOU ARE DAMNED, DAMNED, DAMNED!

God loves you, damn it! Love him back or you will SO REGRET IT!!! God is not an abuser, BUT HE WON'T TOLERATE YOU UNLESS YOU REPENT!!!!!!

I wonder if any of the Christians reading this could honestly believe they have committed enough sins in their pathetically short lives worthy of everlasting torture. 100 years of torture. Hmm. 10,000 years? Hmm. A million years? Hmmm.

Forever and ever and ever and ever and ever??? Is that really justice? Is torture ever justice? Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? 100 years of snubbing God deserves an eternity in pain? Really? With not one opportunity to repent then? No chance of forgiveness, ever? Ever?

Not ever?

Forever damned for 100 years or less of unbelief?

Think about it Christian? Does that make any sense at all from an unconditionally loving heavenly father?

nao said...

I think that for just the way that you mock God and Christians on this website deserves an eternal hell. Now maybe some of you guy's pulse went up...maybe it's sounds cruel...but I am NOT saying it with anger or hatret in my heart. I just feel that your mockery is really evil-and the devil must be really pleased with you. He made you all believe that there is no God...which is what he wants..this or you to worship him. I think that he has accomplished his plan with you. What I feel sorry for the most is that you also try to pull everyone you just can in the same deep pit you are in right now. YOu are trying to 'convert' people too...but anyway you all really will stand before God for judgement.
The way you look at it however is different. It's like if you would tell your child not to play on the street because you will get hurt or even die if you do.YOu set those rules because you love your child and don't want him to get hurt or die. But the kid doesn't care for what you say and goes out to play on the street because it's 'fun'. For a while maybe nothing happens to him..you might need to spank the kid a little bit if he just won't listen to you in order to save him.. but if he will keep being disobedient..one day he will harvest what he has sowed..a car hits him and he dies. So you are only being told to obey for your own good..and very naturally when you don't do that you will cause trouble for yourself..it's just the natural consequence of your own desobedient. It's not really him sending you to hell..it's you who choose that way...he told you what's good for you because he loves you...it's your decision to obey or disobey-you only get the concequences of your own decision.

Something else:
What I have noticed from pretty much all of you is that you don't only just not believe in God...you hate those who do. I don't feel much tolerance here. You don't argue politely for most of the time. You are mostly rude and say everything with sarcasm. You think we are all stupid because we believe in this 'nonsence' that there is a God, while atheism is just as much a religion as christianity.It's only a belief...you have no more scientific evidence(if you really have any at all) that would prove your theory for a 100% sure. You only BELIEVE that there is no God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.

.:webmaster:. said...

I just got through watching Wallace getting tortured to death for wanting freedom for Scotland.

People believed that he deserved to be tortured to death for that.

You believe I should be tortured for all eternity for having a stupid little website? Is your god so petty, so shallow, so insecure, that a little website rankles HIM to the point of everlasting sadism?

You are one sick bastard. You glory in the fantasy of horror against your fellow humans because they do not share you pathetic religion.

I don't hate you, or those trapped like you. I was once twisted and warped as you are now. I pity you. You have lost away your mind and your freedom in exchange for a Holy Ghost that you hope will reward your loyalty with jewels and crowns in the clouds.

Meanwhile you and your peverse god will laugh and celebrate at the carnage that eternity wreaks on most of humanity as they burn and smolder everlastingly.

BTW, Your flying un-dead god-man commanded you to give to everyone who asks. I'm asking you, oh holy one, for 10 dollars. If you refuse to give it, then I suppose you and I will be bunk mates in hell.

Jim Arvo said...

Hello Nao,

That was quite a tirade. Let's do a little comparison, just to see where we stand. As I try not to speak for anybody but myself, I will phrase this in terms of my own beliefs and behaviors, and hasten to point out that I am by no means atypical in any of these aspects. If you actually try to read some of the discussions that take place here, you will see that for yourself.

1) I think you are 100% entitled to believe whatever you want, and for whatever reason you want. You think we deserve to burn in Hell if we happen to disagree with you.

2) I think it's quite rude to force one's beliefs on others who have expressly chosen a different path. You think it's somehow your duty to rope others into your peculiar beliefs. (Example: I would NEVER post something analogous to what you wrote on a Christian web site; I think it's rude to invade someone's space and insult them.)

3) I think it's prudent to understand the arguments put forth by the other side. By all appearances, you can't be bothered to listen to the other side at all (your comments about scientific evidence and proof are so far off-base that you clearly haven't read anything here at all).

4) I would continue to love my children and protect them if they decided not to listen to me, didn't believe I existed, or even hated me. If your analogy above is any indication of your own feelings, then it seems you would not behave similarly. Moreover, I'll point out that it's a parent's responsibility to find a way to communicate important messages to children; the fault is not with them if they fail to understand.

In short, I find nothing virtuous in your position; at least judging by what you've written thus far. If you think your position warrants some respect, or in any way serves the interests of humanity, then by all means show us what you have to back it up, and see if you can do it with civility. Good day.

Bentley said...

nao

How does one "Mock" a God?

I guess many people wish they could mock a God...

The only place sin exists is in the bible, who put that word there?

Had you never heard of the bible from other humans, you would not be thinking so self-righteously of yourself right now!

Before 1492, a bible had never been on American soil, so all those heathen savages are in hell right now, how come we do not just kill all the Indians in America living today, since they are all the same descendants of the first original heathen savages? I think your god would like that! huh?

What were some of the sins of the Native American Indians, before God and Jesus arrived in the form of a book? The one that tells everyone what sin is!

nao, you're just spouting something (garbage) you've heard before, you were not born with a knowledge of a God, you were told by another human that there is a God, that's all the proof you have, yet you come on here chastizing us for rejecting your belief.

A belief is all there is, a belief is all that you have, you have no evidence except for a book, a book written about a god, not a book from a god, there is second and third party intervention, prob. hundreds more.

A god nor jesus never wrote any part of the bible. Why not? Could it be they do not exist? Could it be that they were too illiterate and could not write or speak for themselves?

What language did your God use to convey his preacious inspired message in? Was it Arabic, Hindu, Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, etc.

What is the language of choice for your God? You should atleast know that!

What is the official language of a creator God? Anyone know?

It seems to be money!

How come the bible is supposed to be true, but no one knows what the official language of a god is?

Is that such a hard question?

We desperately need some answers, nao!

We're waiting!!!

BTW, I hope you've sent in your ten bucks before Jesus returns, otherwise it's to the inferno with us infidels that your god loves so much!

I beg you today to turn your heart towards reality and common sense, wont you do it today? In the name of sanity and mental stability, these things we ask, a sensible man and a sensible woman.

boomSLANG said...

Nao, enough already. Please, just stop. You are not educated and/or very young(I would guess early to mid-teens?). Honestly, the more you post, the more you destroy your own argument for your Jesus. Really, it's true.

I just feel that your mockery is really evil-and the devil must be really pleased with you. He made you all believe that there is no God...which is what he wants..this or you to worship him.

Nao, we not only disbelieve in your "God", but we disbelieve in ALL supernatural "entities".....this would include goblins, spooks, and "devils". The same way you, Nao, disbelieve in Allah, and Buddha, and the boogieman. Nao, there are no "devils"--they do not exist. You seem to be constipated with misinformation about Atheism. Atheists don't "worship" the "devil". Nao, please educate yourself on what Atheism is. Don't "guess" or parrot what your two fundy friends say, 'k?

YOu are trying to 'convert' people too...but anyway you all really will stand before God for judgement.

Nao, YOU came here. You are free to leave at anytime, and I suspect you will get some "help" with that soon. Nonetheless, no, we won't "stand before God", because "God" doesn't exist. Nao, simply insisting that God exists won't make God exist. You'll need to actually produce some evidence for your claims if you expect to be taken seriously. Evidence, Nao.

The way you look at it however is different. It's like if you would tell your child not to play on the street because you will get hurt or even die if you do.

Not to shockingly, your "child-parent" analogy fails, just like it does for the hundreds of other Christians who attempt to compare a relationship/dialogue between two real physical beings, with that of a person and a NON-real, NON-physcial "being". But even if we humor you for a minute---if the child "disobeys" and gets "killed" playing the street, he/she goes to "Heaven" if they were too young to have been exposed to Christianity, right? And 'christ(pun intended), that's the best thing that could ever happen to him/her, according to the way Nao believes! So why aren't Christians out running little kids over, and/or drowning them so they get into heaven?(ala Susan Smith) Why?..because they don't really "believe" in their make-believe "heaven"---they only hope for it...that's why.

It's not really him sending you to hell..it's you who choose that way...he told you what's good for you because he loves you

No, your "God" has never "told" me jack shit. That's the problem. And don't hand me anymore "Word of God" bible bullshit, unless you're prepared to listen to what "Allah has told Nao", via the Holy Q'ran. Thanks.

What I have noticed from pretty much all of you is that you don't only just not believe in God...you hate those who do.

What I "hate" is what religious belief does to people like you.

You don't argue politely for most of the time.

By argue "politely" do you mean agree with what you say? 'Wrong place for that.

while atheism is just as much a religion as christianity.

No, it's not a religion---but even if it was, what are you saying?....that's it's JUST AS bad as Christianity?..i.e..your dog has just as many fleas as my dog, neener, neener, neener! Weak.

It's only a belief...you have no more scientific evidence(if you really have any at all) that would prove your theory for a 100% sure.

I was just having this discussion with one your disciples of Christ. I'll use the same analogy: If Atheism is a "belief", then NOT collecting stamps is a "hobby". Atheism is the NON-belief in god(s). And again, you are attemtping to bring Atheism down to your level of conviction. Atheism is NOT a conviction--it is merely a position of neutrality.

You only BELIEVE that there is no God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.

You only BELIEVE in God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.

For the novice "debater"---the burden of proof is in the lap of the one MAKING the positive claim.

Jim Arvo said...

BoomSLANG, I think you are right about Nao. Looking back over what he/she has written, it has the ring of a cocky teen. I really do try to be more gentle with the younger posters, so I like to know if I'm addressing a kid. For the most part, kids echo what they hear from their parents and/or peers, so they are less culpable IMHO. So, Nao, if you're under 18, you really have no legitimate business here. You add nothing to the discussion, and you will only draw fire from those of us who have heard the rhetoric you've been echoing a million times, and have come to realize how vacant it is. When you've had time to really examine things for yourself (maybe after a few years of college) and (hopefully) been exposed to some critical thinking, come on back and we can have a meaningful discussion. Until then, take care.

boomSLANG said...

IMO, Jim Arvo, the dead give-away isn't so much "cockiness" as much as it is he/she just being ill-informed, easily rattled, a poor speller, and of course, "classic" novice fundamentalist---trying to shoot holes in Atheism in an attempt to make Christianity "true". So yeah, I predict a female middle-aged teen of Asian descent.

If I'm wrong, Nao, please correct me, as I'd rather not defend my erroneous thinking in perpetuity. = )

Jim Arvo said...

BoomSLANG: "...I predict a female middle-aged teen of Asian descent..."

Wow. If you're right, I'll be very impressed.

But wait... You neglected to mention whether she is right- or left-handed! :-)

Warnepiece said...

Nao, my prior comment about your “not thinking” still stands, especially after your latest posting. “There are things you shouldn’t think about…” My, my, you must be really well-informed. You are so afraid of your mean god and his bible that I can’t help but feel extreme pity for you and want to soothingly tell you…”It’s okay, it’s alright, there’s no need to be afraid of your shadow, there are no monsters under the bed, and there’s no boogeyman called god!” But then I realized, you WANT to believe in them! You confirmed it in your last paragraph when you note about yourself, and others like you “we are all stupid because we believe in this nonsence (sic) that there is a God.”

nao said...

For the last time...(so you'll have something to mock again)I write that you have twisted my words. I am not going to clear the meaning of what I've said because it's right there...you probably know what I wrote and how I meant it, but again all I have noticed was the hatred and sarcasm. I don't and I shouldn't hate you because you don't believe in God...it's so not about that...I thought I should care...but I shouldn't.
Well..if you want proves you can find many...over the internet or wherever you want(but you can experience God in your life spiritually...that's the perfect proof but your spirit is dead right now...so you can't feel and understand Him)..you probably wouldn't believe me anyway...you have hardened your hearts long time ago.
Oh..and yes I am probably not as old as you are..thank GOd. I am young..that's true..but a above 18. I've been christian for only about a 1.5 yrs. so of course my 'arguing' isn' that strong-but that wasn't the purpose. I don't have to win you over..actually I can't...you make your own decisions. But as much as you pity me I pity you..or rather feel sorry for you.-even though I don't need to.
About the spellig and etc. I have misspelled some things accidently(like weight instead of wait)...and also I might not be the greatest speller and maybe I can't express myself like an adult ..but forgive me... a few years ago I couldn't even write a sentence in English. I am thankful that I have got this far..but I am planning to improve my English anyway.
So..I am foreign.I guess I have given you another reason to hate me...(not from Asia though-wrong about that one).
About the ten dollars...I am not going to heaven because I have kept all the commandments or because I have given you 10 dolars when you asked...I am a sinner too who deserves hell like you do but I am goint to heaven because I accepted that Jesus had paid the price for my sins( the "fairy tale" you know...)all I needed is to accept a gift.
Oh and the false 'Jesus' might need money, but God doesn't. He owns everything, including evrything you have. He could take it away in a second if he wanted to(but I guess he doesn't)...he doesn't need to beg..but he also doesn't need money...He's got more power that anyone can have with all the money on Earth.
All right...I think I AM gonna take off..I just waste my time here.
I still hope the best for you guys.

Take care,

Jim Arvo said...

Nao said "I write that you have twisted my words. I am not going to clear the meaning of what I've said because it's right there..."

For future reference, Nao, if you accuse somebody of twisting your words I suggest you be specific about what got twisted. As is, I have no idea what you're referring to.

Nao: "...but again all I have noticed was the hatred and sarcasm."

Throwing the word "hatred" at us is completely unjustified. I don't hate you -- I don't even know you. I find your rhetoric to be very annoying, and I disagree with your theology (as I've tried to explain) but that's no reason to hate someone.

Nao: "Well..if you want proves you can find many...over the internet or wherever you want..."

That's the whole point. Just saying there is "much evidence" or "many proofs" does not suffice. I have examined hundreds of those so-called proofs, and not a single one holds up to even modest scrutiny. So, if you have nothing to offer in the way of evidence or argument, we have nothing to discuss.

Nao: "...that's the perfect proof but your spirit is dead right now...you have hardened your hearts long time ago."

That's a bit rude and presumptuous, isn't it Nao? It's called an ad hominem attack when you go after a person's character in an attempt to defuse their argument. It's a well-known fallacy. Why do you choose to attack rather than discuss? If you have some profound insight, nobody is stopping you from sharing it.

Nao: "...But as much as you pity me I pity you..or rather feel sorry for you..."

It's not about pity. I don't pity you. I disagree with you. Do you find that so threatening? If so, why?

Nao: "...a few years ago I couldn't even write a sentence in English... but I am planning to improve my English..."

Good for you. I know that's difficult.

Nao: "So..I am foreign.I guess I have given you another reason to hate me..."

Nobody hates you here. How on earth can you hate someone for a few dozen words on a web site? That makes no sense. Please learn to differentiate between "hate" and "disagreement".

Nao: "..I just waste my time here."

And apparently we've wasted ours.

Nao: "I still hope the best for you guys."

And I hope the best for you, regardless of what you choose to believe. Bye now.

Warnepiece said...

Nao, no one has twisted your words. If you can’t articulate what you want to say, please don’t blame us for that. What you perceive as hatred and sarcasm is your inability to accept a different viewpoint. When you keep harping on a point that we have repeatedly rejected because there is NO PROOF of the validity of your statement, then we will reduce our civility accordingly. Hammering on your feelings and your belief in god does not convince us…AT ALL. Nor does threatening us with the regurgitation of the hellfire and brimstone nonsense. You are so certain you are right, even though you aren’t, that you think any disagreement is hatred and scorn directed at you. Because of your young years, you have not had a lifetime of being bombarded with fundamentalist Christian claptrap. We have. We can only hope that someday you’ll wake up to the realization that you’re not a sinner, there is no hell and there is no god judging you. There is no reason to live in fear and no need to attempt to scare others with that fearful juvenile outlook.

Bentley said...

nao, We do not hate you, it's actually the opposite we love you, we care for you, we would like to embrace you into common sense and reasoning.

Many of us were just exactly like you were when we were younger, much more gullible and naive.

The point we are trying desperately to get across not only to you but many people just like you that believe the same very thing that you believe, most of us believed (We Believed) just like you do now.

Now who can honestly say that there exists a God whom whom created the entire universe and is going to toss people into a burning Hell, based solely upon what they have chosen to believe?

What if a person is born deaf?... What if a person is born mentally ill?... What if a person is born with Down's Syndrome?...What if Siamese Twins are born and they share the same Heart and one of them believes in a God and the other one does not, do both of them go to Hell or do both of them go to Heaven?

nao, We're looking for an equal oportunity God, that loves people everyone on Earth based upon their ability to get along and love one another and try to make the world a safer place, not love them based upon their beliefs, how freaken ridiculous is that?

Most Atheists are opposed to what you would call sin, most of us know what is right and wrong, we know it's not right to harm another human being, we didn't need a bible nor a belief to know this, neither do you.

Most of us abide with the ten commandments, but we do not believe a God inspired the ten commandments, we beleive any person living back then, could have wrote them.

We also do not believe that the bible was the inspired word from a God, mainly because there is so much hatred and random killings and murder written in the Bible, to appease this God, that you pretend to worship.

We wonder why if a God can create the whole entire universe in just six days, why did it take this God 4000 years later to come up with the virgin birth salvation plan.

We also wonder why does killing a God's only begotten son atone for everyones sins, for the ones that ask?

What does murder do to appease this God that he may forgive people from their sins?

How did people get saved from their sins before Jesus, burn animals perhaps, is this what a God wants, burnt sacrifices?

Does this God love the idea of murder? I know I do not, does this make me better than your God? Do you like the idea of murdering innocent people, in hopes of saving people from their sins? Does this make sense to you?

Have you ever asked yourself any of these questions, or do you just take anyones word that claim to have been inspired by a God?

nao, you haven't told us anything that we've not heard a million times, I suppose after you hear the same rhetoric a million times you'll realize it's all bunk.

We will always love you, whether you want our love or not.

All we ask is, that you examine what you're spewing to us with close acrutiny, you'll soon see it's all a hoax. We found out it is all a myth.

Jamie said...

I personally think that Atheists lead a more purer or cleaner life than most Christians, because they do not have a belief, a belief that if the bible was written by a God or a belief that a man died for peoples sins.

We do not need a belief, because we base our lives on what we know is true, not what someone wrote down over 2000 years ago, and it claims what is written is true, without a speck of evidence nor any way to examine or verify it's source.

Preachers say that a product comes with it's owners manual and that the Bible is man's owners manual, but when we are born, we do not come out with a Bible attached like man made products do, the Bible is later applied to the product.

We atheists live by what we know in our minds is true, not by what others tell us we should believe.

If there is an all loving God, then this God would rather love someone that is not filled with the beliefs in myths and superstitions.

If I were a God and said nothing ever and this group of people wrote a book written about me, but without my approval, I would be very disappoined in them, especially when they build all those brainwashing boxes (churches) and said that I required worship and constant prayer.

If people wrote an book about me and it was all a lie, then I would be very disappointed in them, I wouldn't call them Christians.

boomSLANG said...

(but you can experience God in your life spiritually...that's the perfect proof but your spirit is dead right now...so you can't feel and understand Him).

More tell-tale signs of an immature and inexperienced "evangelist". Nao says we can "experience God" in our lives, spiritually...BUT...our spirits are dead...so we can't feel and understand "Him".

Okay, any reasonable person can see the blatant circle: We can't understand and experience God because our spirits are dead, yet, we can't have our spirits not be dead, until we can experience God. What's a poor heathen to do?[/sarcasm]

But seriously---Nao, I know you're reading this right now. Please, get out while you still can.

Best regards, boomSLANG.

Also David said...

Hello. My name is also David.

My first thought was to be offended by this article, but then I understood that it's not meant as offensive, it's simply honest. Unless I missed something, you're just being honest, and I approve of that.

By your definition of a "Christian," you're absolutely right. The Bible never used that word, though. It used words like "follower" (yes, like a stupid sheep, I know). The people in this world who make me the maddest are the ones who are the most sure that they are worthy to be called a Christian, or consider themselves truly blameless. I like it that you aren't like that.

I want you to know that there is one idiotic sheep out here that is trying with all of his being to do what Jesus says because he believes in Him as the Christ. I don't know this because of logic or fancy arguments, of which I have none, but by the miracles I have witnessed in my short lifetime. If God can completely heal chronic illnesses in an instant when we pray to Him in Jesus' name, then I'm sure going to do whatever Jesus said to do.

Therefore, in response to Matthew 5:39-42, I have donated $20 to your cause. I'm not doing this so that I can receive some earthly credit, as I assume I'll get more flak for this than anything else from the Christian community (and possibly you). I'm giving this money to you expecting that you will use it to undermine the teachings of my Savior. Consider it a depsoit on my appeal to you to accept my love for you as my neighbor.

Furthermore, I am going to show you another act of love. Because I love you and care for your well-being, I am going to fast for three days and pray for you and for the furthering of His Kingdom in your life, that it may bring you satisfaction and joy to return to Him, despite your imperfections and pride. God bless you and put you in the mindset of being His beloved!

Unworthy to be a sheep, but trying my best,
David

P.S.- Please send me an e-mail at Thebatcommander@gmail.com ... I would like to talk to you one on one if that's all right with you.

.:webmaster:. said...

Thank you for the gift David.

And thank you for the act of personal sacrifice.

Come back in three days and we'll talk.

Anonymous said...

How old are you guys? Stop acting like teenagers, arguing about nothing. Christians feel free to attack in the Bible it says don't waste you're time arguing about silly things. *Not exact words.* Anyways, You're not going to "convert" this guy by arguing and attacking his points especially if his own sister donated to his whatever cause -- It's not real clear- so i'm guessing it's yourself--- Yay for people like your sister. I'm sure she has a wonderful heart.
p.s. - My name is Kelsey, and I don't ever plan to come back to this webpage so I don't care what you say about me.

Anonymous said...

i love how this is one big conversation of people trying to make themselves feel smarter...just forget about it, it's all good, why can't you just let others believe what they want to believe? it's cool if you're not a christian, i'm all for it, but i just don't see the real need to make a website devoted to the topic...it just seems a little too hateful for my taste...i agree christians can be real asses sometimes, but common now, everyone is sometimes. just take a deep breath and chill for a second, realize that you don't need to prove yourself with your anti-bible knowledge...it's all good, just realize that there is some validity to the teachings of christ (the whole love your neighbour shpeil, i would say forgiveness isn't so bad either), see the good things that that kind of thinking can bring, and just let people be. again, i agree that fundamentalists can make everyone a little angry at some point or another, but i don't think it's necessary to get all upset about it. this whole thing just kind of screams to me, 'i'm smarter than you! did you see how many bible verses i knew that you didn't! haha! i am so smart since i am not like you idiot christians! PLEASE FEED MY EGO! we can argue but i will WIN and the only thing better than that is when others feel stupid which is what i LIVE off of! hurrah!"

peace out all you argumentative types, may you all relax a little...and webmaster, 10 dollars doesn't go very far these days, i both commend you as well as shake my head at you in disbeleif for not asking for more.

p.s. kelsey smells...haha jokes :), just cuz you said we could...hard to resist.

J. C. Samuelson said...

'Nony,

Why don't you post something similar on all the Christian websites that expound on the evils of non-belief, of belief in other gods, of homosexuality, and of science? Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, will keep you busy for quite some time. After all, there are literally tens of thousands of such websites.

Here's a few links to get you started...

Westboro Baptist Church

The Family Research Council

Focus on the Family

Concerned Women for America

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

...and many, many more. So many, in fact, that if I were to list them all I'd be writing this post for weeks.

It's not "all good."

As for why we should bother, this website exists for the express purpose of supporting those who've left Christianity (Site Purpose and Disclaimer).

Concerned preacher said...

Webmaster . . . I believe it is fruitless to leave a comment, yet still here are my meager thoughts. You are wrong that Christians look forward to the day when all skeptical unbelievers will "roast." A Christian's mission is to seek and save the lost - not rejoice over the plight or possible condemnation of another. We are challenged to love God above all else and to love our neighbors as our own selves.

Many people have erred using the name "Christian" and have caused others to doubt. For example, God never said for Christians to have a war and kill thousands of people who would not convert. People mistake the clearing of Canaan with the crusades of the "Catholics." If you read the scriptures carefully, not everyone in Canaan was killed mercilessly. Rahab, a harlot, and her whole family were saved along with others who denounced idolatrous practices.

I can see by your current understanding that God could not love unconditionally because he does condemn and because scriptures show he has destroyed "unrepentant sinners." You might do well to study how the bible describes God as being "just" and not a respecter of persons. A just God has to punish those who refuse to obey. If you disagree with this, then I am sure you deny that any absolutes should exist in this world. Perhaps, we should not have mandatory sentences and punishments for criminals.

Your faith is to deny God. My faith is to affirm him and his will. In the end we will see who is right. I pray that somehow your mind can be changed, but I am sure receiving $10.00 from every person will do nothing to progress a healthy dialogue.

Faith in God is about hope and a belief in the one who created everything. That faith is rewarded eternally. Instead of focusing on teh negative, realize what God wants for you. You may not know this but Hell was not made for us. Hell in Matthew 25 is a place prepared for the devil and his angels. God meant for us to live with him and before him blamelessly and in love (Eph. 1:3f). So an eternity in hell is the sentence for unbelief and disobedience. As to do I think it is fair to suffer that kind of punishment, consider the alternative. Heaven is an eternity of peace and praise before God. Only two places will exist in eternity, you must choose which one you will frequent.

While these words may do nothing to help you, they have helped me tremendously. God Bless you and I hope those who read this site will find some peace and not be so angry with God.

.:webmaster:. said...

jtuiA just God has to punish those who refuse to obey.

First of all, why does God have to punish those who refuse to obey? Are we slaves? Are we possessions?

If what you mean is that crimes must be punished, well, then I agree. However, shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? Can you honestly tell me that you have committed atrocities for which justice would demand everlasting torture without chance of parole?

Do you think torture is a proper punishment for a crime?

Surely God's sense of justice should be at least as advanced as our own. What I see in the doctrine of eternal retribution is Bronze Age justice -- it's primative, barbaric, hideous.

And yes, Christians will rejoice to see the sinners in hell: ISA 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And this quote is attributed to Jesus in the New Testament.

Concerned Preacher said...

Webmaster thank you for your comments.

Isaiah's words were not suggesting rejoicing but "abhorrence." In the context of Isaiah, God is comforting his people with the knowledge that they will return from exile and their enemies would be punished. Comfort is a far cry from rejoicing. The words from Isa 66 are also quoted in Mark 9 to show the reality and severity of an eternity in hell.

Prov. 24:17, 18 shares, "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; or the Lord will see and be displeased, and turn his anger away from him." Both Jesus and Paul wept from the reality of those who were enemies of righteousness. Christians rejoice in the promise of salvation NOT in the condemnation of others. If a verse of the scriptures teaches rejoicing over the eternal torment of another, I would not mind if you pointed it out to me.

As far as the sentence fitting the crime. Do you think it appropriate for a rapist to be raped in turn? Or for a murderer to be killed? Or for a thief to have something stolen from him? If you agree that some punishment should fit the crime then you are in agreement with scripture. God taught the principle of restitution from the Mosaic Law even in the gospels. The saying an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is not a literal exchange. But, if you read carefully in the law, a person was to pay for wrongs committed. Under the Mosaic Law, God even excused the accidental death of another. He would allow the guilty person to live the rest of his days in a city of refuge. As long as the person obeyed God's condition, he lived. If that person left the city of refuge, God's law permitted an "avenger" to take the other person's life. Now, you may still feel that these are barbaric and archaic ideas. Yet, wouldn't a criminal, if he or she were surveyed, offer alternative punishments than the ones given by the court. God has made sure that everyone knows that there is a just recompense for sin -- Rom. 6:23, "the wages of sin is death." Those who wish to live will comply with God's will for life, those who choose to disobey choose to accept God's wrath. There is nothing to balk at if you know ahead of time.

If God is creator of the heavens and the earth, should'nt he be able to dictate the laws that govern his creation. Included in those laws would be punishments for wrongdoing. Trust me, an eternity in hell is not something I would enjoy, so my desire is to follow God and not go there. Such is my faith, my aim, and my hope.

I can respect anyone's decision NOT to believe in God, even to refuse to obey his will. But, that does not change the truth that IF God is real and his word law, he expects his creation to follow it. If that creation does not, even those who claim to be Christians, all will be rightly punished.

To answer the slaves question: In Romans 6:17-18 we must choose who we will serve (Josh. 24:15). If we follow God we become servants (doulos - slaves) of righteousness. If we follow sin, we are servants (doulos - or slaves) of unrighteousness. Jesus in John 8:30f taught that a person who sins is made a "slave" of sin. Now, do not confuse God's use and teaching of "slave" as the same thing that has occurred in American history and still occurs in the world. God gave sobering teachings to both "master" and "slave" in both the old and new testaments. To make it plain - there are only two sides. Pick one and hope it was the right choice.

.:webmaster:. said...

God is comforting HIS people that their enemies would be punished.

Nice. And Jesus supposedly used the same words to "confort" people that anyone who didn't get on board with the correct religion would be mercilessly tortured for all eternity.

Again, nice.

You mentioned the book of Psalms. I wonder that you didn't mention the Imprecatory Psalms:
- Psalms 109, and 69 are the two big ones...

- Other seventeen Imprecatory Psalms: 5, 6, 11, 12, 35, 37, 40, 52, 54, 56, 58 ,69, 79, 83, 137, 139, 143.

From Psalm 109: 6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him.

8 May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership. 9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. 10 May his children be wandering beggars; may they be driven from their ruined homes.

11 May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. 12 May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children.


From Psalm 69: 22 May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap. 23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.

24 Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them. 25 May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. 27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.

28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.


Of course, that fits precisely with Pauls admonition that anyone who doesn't love Jesus should be accursed.

To my "sentence should fit the crime" comment, you either didn't understand me, or you equivocated (thanks Jim). The point I was making is that everlasting, horrific torture, is a heinous crime against humanity, no matter how personally pissed-off your Bronze Age God might be. It's impossible to rationalize that keeping a victim alive forever so that he or she can be tortured in incomprehensible agony throughout all time, just because he or she didn't believe in the correct version of the proper religion servicing the one true god, whomever that might be, if there even is one.

If I live 100 sinful years, how many centuries of torture do you think would be a just punishment? 100? A million? A billion? Nope, no amount of time will be enough to satisfy the wrath and indigation of your loving, merciful, heavenly father. HE just can't stand being disrespected. HE's just got a short fuse about certain things.

There is no reabilitation in hell. There is no parole from that prison. And there is no escape through death. The wages of sin is death, except no one in Christianity dies. Everyone lives forever -- the slaves of Jesus in heaven, and everyone else on a spit in hell.

Concerned, the whole myth is silly. You can quote all the Bible to me you want. I have a considerable amount of the book memorized. I don't believe in it.

The laws you mentioned were not invented by the Hebrews. They borrowed them from the people around them. Laws and human understanding of justice has been evolving for quite some time, and continues to evolve. That's why we don't practice the primitive retributive practices of the Old Testament.

So you have made yourself clear, there are only two types of people on Earth: "True Christians™" and everyone else. And both are slaves.

And here I thought Christians were the children of God. Hmmm. I guess in that case, that makes my children, even the adult children, my slaves.

Again, I don't accept your Bible as relevant to reality.

Why not?

Let me make some assumptions here: I'm betting that you reject the Book of Mormon, the writings of Christian Science, any books from Islam, the Apocropha, all the Gnostic Christian writings ever found, the Illiad, the Greek myths, American Indian stories about the Great Spirit, Buddhist writings... etc., etc., etc.

You, I assume, dismiss everything else as nonsense, no matter how many people believe in those writings, and no matter how true anyone claims them to be. You do this almost without thinking, without a shred of doubt or unease. You dismiss the entire religious history of billions of believers because you believe you have found the one truth.

Well, when you can adequately explain why you so quickly have dismissed all other religions, then you'll be able to comprehend why I have rejected yours.

Dave8 said...

CP: "God gave sobering teachings to both "master" and "slave" in both the old and new testaments. To make it plain - there are only two sides. Pick one and hope it was the right choice."

Are you suggesting one need to choose between the Jewish god El, or the Christian god YHWH?

Between the original Jewish priests, or an early evangelical preacher who twisted the words of the Jewish Tanakh, using his own oral tradition, that fit his vision of what a religion should be?

If you can get past those two, I have about a few hundred more, opposites to choose from, from the inception of the christian religion, beyond the protestant reformation.

It seems there CP, that the selection between all of those opposing choices, is the underlying precept for the thousands of christian denominations, world-wide. I hope you chose correctly, but... that makes all of those other christians... lost, deluded, and ultimately not the "True Christians" they should be.

Bentley said...

I have a couple questions?

Does anyone know what we're going to eat when we,(the sinners and nonbelievers, that is) get to hell? French Fries, maybe?


Do they give you a map of where all the restrooms are? porta-jons maybe?

A thousand years or more is a long time to be hungry and hold your piss!

.:webmaster:. said...

Here's more on the great celebrations in heaven when most of humanity goes to the great oven in hell:

AUGUSTINE
(Christian author and leader from the 4th century)
They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints'. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.

TERTULLIAN
(revered Christian leader from 200 A.D.)
What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.

JONATHAN EDWARDS
(famous revivalist from the 18th century)
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

ISAAC WATTS
(composer of 600 hymns)
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

Anonymous said...

I have been reading this for a bit so forgive me for not remembering who initially asked for the $10, but I won't be giving you any money for the mere reason you are not asking for money because you need it, you are asking merely to say to me that if I don't give you $10 I am not a true believer. Satan too tempted Jesus

"Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him he said, If thou be the Son of God command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said It is written Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, and saith unto him if thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, it is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

So I say to your request that you are merely tempting christians to prove their love for God by giving 10.00, so get behind me Satan.

Jen

Wes said...

Jen wrote:
>>>>>
" I have been reading this for a bit so forgive me for not remembering who initially asked for the $10, but I won't be giving you any money for the mere reason you are not asking for money because you need it, you are asking merely to say to me that if I don't give you $10 I am not a true believer. Satan too tempted Jesus
"xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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xxxx" Matthew 4:10.
So I say to your request that you are merely tempting christians to prove their love for God by giving 10.00, so get behind me Satan.

Jen.
>>>>>

Drat. Sorry, Jen - could you repost your bible quote for me? My BS filter filtered it out. Much appreciate it, and so sorry. Thanks, -Wes.

Jen said...

Wes,
no need for me to repost it, my post is still up for others to read.

Jen

.:webmaster:. said...

Jen,

I agree with you completely. Sending me $10.00 would be stupid, asinine, and foolish.

When Jesus made the command to give to ALL who ask, even evil people, even people who didn't need it, it was obviously a less than divine command. It was absolute pure drivel.

Thank you for pointing that out. And thank you for disobeying the lunatic commands of a deluded itinerant peasant preacher.

Jen said...

Dear Webmaster:

Maybe you should read a little more of your Bible. If you read Deuteronomy 5. This will give you some instruction, and then read Deuteronomy 6, verse 1 which says "Now these ARE the COMMANDMENTS, the statutes and the judgements which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it."

Jen

Passerby said...

Jen,
Maybe you should read more of your Bible.

Mark 16:16, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "

Jen, Here's another way to show us you are a true Christian (TM). Go to the hardware store, buy a bottle of Drano, and drink all the Drano in the bottle. Then find some arsenic and drink it too. If you are not hurt, I will convert with "all my heart" to become a follower of your god.

Jen, just in case you are a really stupid Christian, DO NOT DRINK THE DRANO OR ARSENIC---IT WILL KILL YOU!! Also, your Pastor, Priest or Christian friends will not be able to save you by "laying hands" on you.

We know there are stupid Christian's out there who have handled snakes in the past, and some of these Christian snakes handlers have died after being bitten by these animals.

Cheers

Passerby said...

Jen, your god will be very pleased if you can convert me. You may even convert other people on this blog. Just think, Jen, you will earn extra godly bonus points by converting the heathens on this blog.

Drano, Jen, the Drano!!

Wes said...

Jen can't convert anyone. At least, anyone with a shred of intelligence. She's ill equipped. Her converting anyone here would be akin to watching her try to build a house with rubber nails! It's funny though. Provides great entertainment. Then I get to print these out on paper and bring them back to the school for a good laugh! Actually, I rather enjoy reading these types of posts to my engineering class before we start. It's kind of like an "Oh, shit! Stay in school" reminder for us all!! -Wes.

Shannon said...

The bible is vile and nauseating book and any god worth his omnipotence would be embarrassed to be associated with it.

Jen, girlfriend, um yeah, WTF over? Do you think that WM Dave spent 30 years as a Christian with the ‘Idiot’s Guide to the Bible’ as his only companion?

You’re just one head of the Christian Hydra that shows up here blathering the same fire-breathing bullshit. With your own advice, if you had bothered to READ just one person’s testimony on this site then, maybe, you’d realize that what put the X in front of Christian was reading the smarmy buy-bull.

Almost everyone on this site has read the bible cover to cover. Some have read it more than once.

They drank from it like an alcoholic drinks alcohol.

Oh, and speaking of drinking, I’d only drink the Drano after every amputee spontaneously grew limbs and the world's unnecessary suffering ceased (such as starvation and child prostitution) and big sign on the moon saying "I did it," Nuttin' but love, God. PS. The Torah, Bible, Qur'an - all bullshit.

Lee said...

To Jen, Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastsrd child shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation.

Jesus was just such a bastard child was he not?

.:webmaster:. said...

Jen, I've probably read through the Bible more times than you have years in your life.

Here's what the Jesus says: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. -- John 14:21.

Jesus commands you to give to EVERYONE WHO ASKS! Do you love Jesus, Jen? Then prove it. I'm asking for ten dollars.

Or, are you a disobedient servant of Jesus? If so, you will suffer many stripes.

I'm just trying to warn you, Jen. Jesus doesn't like hypocrites.

Jen said...

Wow, First let me say that I am a child of God, and that won't change. Second, you probably have read through the Bible more times than I have years. But please tell me why on my posts here couldn't you address my comment with anything other than your repetition. All that you can do is repeat your first question that I twice showed you where in the Bible you are wrong, oh wait you aren't wrong, you just believe God is wrong. I am actually thankful for this site, because it only increased my faith and proved to me more than ever how much I need Jesus, because without Him, I would end up like the people who have posted such anger and hopelessness. Let me tell you that I have been down more tragic roads in my short life than you could ever imagine and it is the love of Jesus that keeps me positive in such a negative world. When I have trouble in my life, sure it is real easy to get caught up complaining and blaming God, someone has to take the blame, right? But it is the grace and love of God that picks me up, brushes me off, and puts me in the right direction. All your website has done is proven another biblical verse, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including myself.

And don't bother responding to this post, it will fall on deaf ears. I won't be back to debate your hatred of Christians.

.:webmaster:. said...

Jen,

You didn't show me anything of the sort. I'm sorry, you failed to defend your position at all. I did, however, give you clear demonstration that Jesus indeed did command you to give to ALL WHO ASK. You have just chosen to disobey that command, a decision I agree with.

Jen, if visualizing an imaginary super-duper-friendly-giant-god in your mind who loves you and keeps you as his personal pet project, well then trip happily along in your cloud of mystical fluff. That's your right.

I don't want to live in a religiously drugged out mental state anymore. I'm free of that. A cocaine addict can't comprehend how fun it is to live life sober. A religious addict can't comprehend how satisfying it is to live rationally.

I don't hate drug addicts and I don't hate religious addicts. However, I do hate cocaine. And I hate religion.

Good luck to you Jen. Oh, and you will meet other people who disagree with you. That doesn't mean they hate you.

Peace.

Wes said...

I challenge Jen to prove we hate christians. She can't. Know why? We DON'T hate christians - we hate the garbage they are trying to force on the rest of us! Get it? Good! Remember that, Jen. We don't hate you, and it was rude of you to assume we did. -Wes.

Anonymous said...

You pose a very interesting article. I am born-again, and I do desire to keep His commandments, and He does seem to command to give to anyone who asks. He seems to. I will think and pray about this some more, and I will definitely read the words of king Jesus (but in context).

Thanks for the challenge. Rest assured, there are genuine born-again Christians who are radically different today than they were before they were saved, because of an encounter with Jesus Himself. They understand that they have indeed lied, stolen, hated (which is murder, Matthew 5:21,22), lusted (which is adultery, Matthew 5:27,28), and have therefore incurred God's wrath and need a means of escape.

At the very most, your challenge proves that Christians are inconsistent and/or disobedient at times. It does NOT

NOT
NOT
NOT

prove they are not born-again.

Anonymous said...

Furthermore, it is trivial to give $10, $100, even $10,000 in obedience to Jesus. IF that's what He commands in this Scripture.

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris, Jesus commanded you (in context) to give to EVERYONE who asks.

I'm asking for ten dollars. Surely such a trivial request is not beyond your ability to fulfill, is it? Is granting such a tiny request, especially in obedience to your GOD so much to ask? Ten lousy dollars?

Chris, you are NOT a true Christians. You are just a talker.

Anonymous said...

"Chris, Jesus commanded you (in context) to give to EVERYONE who asks."

That's one interpretation. I'd like to see for myself whether it's the correct interpretation.

"I'm asking for ten dollars. Surely such a trivial request is not beyond your ability to fulfill, is it? Is granting such a tiny request, especially in obedience to your GOD so much to ask? Ten lousy dollars?"

NOT AT ALL! :-) Assuming you're right, I MUST obey!


"Chris, you are NOT a true Christians. You are just a talker."

And you are judging me.

You have my word, I will think about this and give you $10 if your interpretation is indeed correct. Ten bucks is nothing when it comes to obedience.

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris, I am not a Christian, and I most certainly AM judging you.

If you blatantly disobey your GOD, when you know the command, and have the means to obey, then you are NO CHRISTIAN.

Sorry kid. Time to get right with GOD!

Anonymous said...

And by the way, don't expect an immediate response. I've got two jobs and I can't always spend the amount of time I'd like on this kind of stuff.

But you have my word I'll look into it.

Anonymous said...

If I discern that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and I gladly and happily give you $10 in obedience to Scripture, will you promise to publically and clearly, on your home page, recant? I'm not talking about some hidden, small retraction, I'm talking, "oops, my mistake" up front where all can see, in nice bold type, like a decent, honest human being?

Anonymous said...

"Chris, I am not a Christian, and I most certainly AM judging you."

Well you have to live with that, not me.

.:webmaster:. said...

So, Chris... now, in order for your to obey your God, you want some pay back? Chris, either obey your God or not, but don't put conditions on it. That's tacky.

It's only ten bucks, Chris. Sheesh.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and Chris, "living with" calling a spade a spade doesn't bother me a bit.

Simply asking a Christian to obey his or her master and cough up a lousy ten-spot seems to be a ridiculously major thing to do. Look at all the comments from all the Christians either refusing to do it, or making a big show of their obedience when they do it!

Ten dollars!?!

Chris, you and all Christians are full of shit. Unless you get major applause, or a few more jewels in your heavenly crown, you're not even slightly interested in obedience to your god.

And frankly, I don't blame you. I mean, deep down, we all know that Christianity is all pretend.

Dano said...

Webmaster,
I have asked the author of the bible to arrange for me to win the lottery a lot of times and he hasn't done it yet. God is supposed to be able to do anything, any time anywhere and all I'm asking for is a lousy one hundred and fifty million dollars.

He owns everything! What would be the big deal about letting me win a lousy hundred and fifty million dollars? Here is a guy who "is" Jesus and speaks through him, and still won't do it.

I have also noticed that he refuses to do anything about all of the suffering and injustice in the world. I wonder if these people who are suffering from horrible diseases, mal-formities and cruelty from others have forgotten to ask him for help?

Do you think he might be out to lunch? Sort of a cosmic lunch? Like for maybe four or five billion years?
Dano (Orphaned by God)

.:webmaster:. said...

Dano, your theology is infantile! God gives people all the tools they need to help their fellow humans. Hence the command to give to all who ask.

However, to avoid obeying even the most obvious command, Christians fabricate all kinds of justifications for disobedience.

Maybe at heart we all really know that Christianity is just pretend.

Dano said...

.:webmaster:. wrote:
"Dano, your theology is infantile! God gives people all the tools they need to help their fellow humans. Hence the command to give to all who ask."

Dano: I agree. My pretend theology is infantile, All theology is infantile. In fact I am of the opinion that the roots of theology lie further back in our brains than infancy!
Dano (Agnostic)

.:webmaster:. said...

"In fact I am of the opinion that the roots of theology lie further back in our brains than infancy!"

Yes, the Stone Age.

.:webmaster:. (who enjoys using the word infantile in reference to believing in Santa Claus and other pretend entities.)

Anonymous said...

"So, Chris... now, in order for your to obey your God, you want some pay back? Chris, either obey your God or not, but don't put conditions on it. That's tacky."

I will obey Christ whether you are an honest, upright citizen or not. Assuming you're a secular humanist with at least some respect in your community, it's the least you can do to say, "oops."

Anonymous said...

http://windows-breaker.devidal.tv:5190/~chris/exchristian_payment.jpg

Anonymous said...

If you can't see the whole URL (I can't,) it's a screenshot of my Paypal transaction.

Is this an elaborate publicity stunt to get pay for your site or is your challenge serious?

.:webmaster:. said...

Thanks for the contribution, Chris. Apparently there is at least one true Christian.

What is the point of all this? Do you sincerely think I'm making a killing on this site by asking Christians for donations of ten bucks? Since posting this rant a few years ago, including your contribution today, I think I've raked in a whole 60 dollars. I've also been rebuked and chastened by Christians literally hundreds of times just for having the audacity of even asking.

No, the point of asking for this pathetically nominal amount is to illustrate that the vast majority of Christians will dance around clear commands of their god-man, claiming the command is being taken out of context, or something, in order to avoid fulfilling the mandate to give to ALL who ask.

Personally, I think such a command is retarded. However, that's what Jesus said, and if Jesus is GOD, then it's a non-negotiable.

If you peruse the comments above, you'll see what I mean.

Again, sincerely, thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Whoops,

I guess I answered nicely to quickly...

Wow Chris. Now the true spirit of the True Christian™ comes out.

Threats with the Lake of Fire, no less. oooooo....

How about that 'ole Boogey Man Satan? I bet he's just slavering to get his horns into me, isn't he?

Chris, witches were burned at the stake for having different beliefs in the Middle Ages too. So were Jews. So was anyone labled a heretic by prevailing versions of Christianity. Guess what, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have been martyred for their beliefs, too. Muslims have also died for their religious beliefs!

None of that proves the truth or validity of a religious belief, only the fanatcial devotion to the religious belief on the part of the martyr and the persecutor. They are both completely nuts.

Anyway, even with the nasty threats of hell, thanks for the 20.

.:webmaster:. said...

And Chris, if you'd actually read the entire little rant above, you'd have seen that a couple of Christians did respond to the challenge, and I admitted it, and said that I stand corrected.

Did you even finish the article?

Recant? Who uses the word recant?

Anonymous said...

"Wow Chris. Now the true spirit of the True Christian™ comes out."

I don't apologize for quoting Revelation. I didn't write the book. You'll have to argue with the author about that. Fortunately for you, you'll get to talk to Him soon :-)


I DO apologize for my sarcastic attitude when I said things like, "But hey, all they really had to do was give ten dollars to a false Christian (oops, I mean ex-Christian)." The Holy Spirit has been convicting me of my attitude in the last hour. There was a general spirit of hostility in my heart. Perhaps you perceived it, perhaps you didn't. The Holy Spirit made me aware, and that's enough.

Christopher de Vidal, you lacked love. "Love (...) is kind." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7 ESV) "The Lord's servant (...) must be kind to everyone. (...) God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:24,25 ESV)

I asked forgiveness of God for my attitude. I know I am forgiven because of Christ's death.

Now I'm asking you: please forgive me.

I love you.

Even if I'm at times sarcastic and fall into the temptation to answer anger with anger, that is because I still wrestle with sin. I was wrong.

I love you, and I commit to pray for you. Every week for the next year I will pray for your financial prosperity, health and general well-being.

And most of all, that you be genuinely saved.

Anonymous said...

"And Chris, if you'd actually read the entire little rant above, you'd have seen that a couple of Christians did respond to the challenge, and I admitted it, and said that I stand corrected.

Did you even finish the article?"

Do you mean the entire post, with all 292 comments? Shoot no! Did you mean the article at the top? Yes, I read it, and you said your sister paid you.

If others paid you and you stand corrected, why not be honest and recant? Pull the article off the home page and put a large, bold retraction at the top.

Yep, recant is an old word but I like it :-)

Anonymous said...

"None of that [the martyr's stories] proves the truth or validity of a religious belief, only the fanatcial devotion to the religious belief on the part of the martyr and the persecutor. They are both completely nuts."

That perhaps is true, but I think you missed my point. My point was not that martyrdom validates a religion. I won't re-type my point, please go back and read it.

Anonymous said...

"Since posting this rant a few years ago, including your contribution today, I think I've raked in a whole 60 dollars. I've also been rebuked and chastened by Christians literally hundreds of times just for having the audacity of even asking."

OK, well you really are the one who knows if you're being honest. I won't judge you. It seems you are being honest, but you could improve your image by at least recanting at the top and removing the link from the home page.

At the very, very least, you should put something at the top like, "Maybe I was wrong. Some people who have responded make me suspect there are some legitimate Christians out there." That would not give your opponents (Christians) an advantage and it would earn you some respect.


Sigh, back to work.

Anonymous said...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... now I think I see what got you so angry.

You probably skimmed my long post which ended in "all liars will have their part in the lake of fire." (a quote from Revelation.) When you came to that point, you probably thought I was closing by saying, "and you, mr. webmaster, are quite the liar!"

NO! Not at all.

I wasn't CALLING you a liar, I was saying "IF" you're not being honest, there is punishment.

I think you misunderstood me. Pay close attention to my words. I said "IF". I was not calling you a liar. I was saying that if you were lying and you knew you were lying, there will be punishment.

I was pointing to some indications that you could be lying, but you have cleared those up and I do now believe you are honest.

Scriptures command us to give each other charitable (good) judgements and not to judge negatively. I was just saying "IF". I hope you can see where the misunderstanding was.

Back to work.

Dano said...

Chris,
Since Dave allows so many born again true Christians to post on this site (I have seen some hang around for years), and you have proved that you are truly, a true Christian, by donating, I congratulate you for helping out.

I give Dave and this web site, credit for showing me just how silly, and yes, dangerous all faith in mysticism can be. I will probably donate something myself, but I'm on a fixed income, and admittedly very tight with my money.

The catholic church just recently admitted that it was wrong for persecuting Galilao, but his suffering was nothing compared to the millions who were tortured and slow roasted during the inquisition.

I have a hard time with feeling sorry for Christians who go to remote places to convert people, and get killed for it, what I do feel bad about, is all the children who are being brainwashed by religion around the world, and the consequences.

I am concerned that these people will be taught that an apocalypse is inevitable and it will be a self fulfilling prophesy. (The Muslims believe in it too)

I have this problem with "true Christians" though. I, being more than twice your age have seen so many of those who represent "The Faith," and have sworn publicly that they were true Christians, do some pretty nasty things.

Down here in the South, it seems almost, a regular, scheduled segment on the news every night, where they tell about the latest preacher, deacon, or otherwise "Good Christian," who committed pedophilia, adultery, theft, murder etc.

They always have a shot of a neighbor saying to the camera "He was such a good Christian man." I have never seen the neighbor say "What a nice Atheist he was."

It is my opinion that those, possessing a large amount of skepticism tend to be MORE moral, because they don't want to be fooled or taken, if you like, and therefore are hesitant to try to fool or take advantage of others. It is sort of a "Golden rule" thing.

Preachers are in the business of fooling people. "God said this, and God said that" We all know that God ain't spoken to anybody. We know the Garden of Eden story makes no sense, Noah didn't take a billion living things on the arc, etc.

The development of this emotion, or moral feeling, probably has its genesis in the first living creatures that formed the most primitive societies, maybe a million years ago.

Anyway Chris, Congratulations for donating, and I would be a "True Christian" myself, if the Jesus story weren't so "Pagan," and Darwin hadn't figured out Natural selection. Actually, I did consider myself a true Christian for a brief time once, and have been embarrassed about it ever since
Dano (Agnostic till someone can define God)

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris: "I don't apologize for quoting Revelation. I didn't write the book."

Shooter: "I don't apologize for pulling the trigger. I didn't craft the gun."

Rapist: "I don't apologize for raping the woman. I didn't make my libido."

Hide behind the "author" (whoever that is, some guy named John, supposedly, and why I'd be meeting him, I can't imagine) all you want, but you are the one talking -- you are the one using the words -- you are the one choosing the passages to quote as a weapon of condemnation and, by the way, judgement.

Why not just say "go to hell!"

Oh, wait, that is what you said... never mind.

Anyway, thanks for the token contribution and for the entertainment. I'll let you know if your prayers are anything more than a complete waste of time.

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris, where did I ever say I was going to recant on this? I admitted that there is at least one true Christian, and maybe with you, now there is two.

So what? I never said I’d take the article down. My sister only sent the money to attempt to prove me wrong, not out of any particular love for Jesus. I think, based on your subsequent postings, that your motives were similar. And in that case, the premise of the article still stands.

How can I say that?

Well, now that you've supposedly "obeyed" your master, you're all bent out of shape. You’re royally pissed off! Do you know why you’re so agitated by this? That's called cognitive dissonance. The normal rationality in your head is banging against your ridiculous superstitious fear regarding a mythical flying, un-dead god-man.

I’ll tell you what, Chris. I’ll recant this article and post big bold red and black letters that there are really obedient true Christians out there… if… you… send… me… $10,000.

That’s right, Chris, I’m now asking you for $10,000.

You stated that if I were to ask for such an amount, that it would be nothing in comparison with you obeying your master.

Well, I’m not asking every Christian, I’m only asking you: May I please have $10,000?

You want me to recant? I’ll do it! But, I’ll only do it if you prove your obedience to your master with more zeal than merely coughing up the meager price of an average hot meal for two at a family restaurant.

Or are you only a $20.00 Christian? What’s obeying your master really worth to you? Or, more to the point, do you really believe in your Craptianity.

Anonymous said...

You guys are all wacked!!!

That "Ball" Guy said...

Anonymous said:
"You guys are all wacked!!!"

If by "wacked" you mean "intellectually hung better than horses", then you'd be right. It's about time someone took notice of their superior psyches

Anonymous said...

Holy Sweet Jesus!!!
What a wonderful challenge, a real true test to test the absolute faith of a True Christian, this could have only been inspired from God.

Chris never would I let a measly $10,000 keep me from roasting in Hell for all eternity, No Sir!

One must think, What if I die this instant and I ignored the commands of Jesus, My Personal Savior? Would I be deemed worthy to escape those flames of a burning Hell? Can I Chris, afford to take that chance?

Chris, can you imagine the smell and stinch of burning flesh and sulfur for all eternity and the knashing of teeth and fire and brimstone?

I know there's plenty of people who are in Hell right now and would now be glad to send in the $10,000 and be with Jesus, if they had just done as Jesus commanded.

But instead they let silly material things get in the way like $10,000 just paper with ink on it, can you Chris, afford to let material objects get in the way of your eternal soul?

If I were a Christian, I would surely not let this burden get in my way of eternal salvation to be with Jesus.

Just consider the $10,000 seed money, as the Bible states you'll get a return of ten fold in Heaven.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, I have to close my end of the conversation. I haven't read anything you posted, the last thing I read on here was when I said, "Ohhhhh, now I know..." yesterday about this time. Sorry.

I've got too many irons in the fire and the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go. So I'm sorry if you wrote a reply to my five posts, I won't be reading it.

If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

I appreciate your challenge for what it did: it forced me to take a cold, hard look at difficult Scripture. How could I be any worse off for doing that? And like all challenges from non-Christians, God will use it to purify His church. So for that, it's very good. I don't think it was a bad question at all, and if other Christians do, understand that they just need to mature in Christ and see it all from God's point-of-view.

Thanks and I'll be praying for you. Prosperity, health, well-being and salvation.

.:webmaster:. said...

OK, Chris... Whatever.

It sure is a good thing you didn't read my request for ten grand! I'm guessing you believe you can use ignorance as a defense at the Great White Throne for disobeying the direct command of your man-god to give to all who ask.

Unless you're lying.

I'll have to hand it to you, your backpeddling approach was original.

Keep praying, it won't do a damned thing, but it won't cost you a dime, either.

Bently said...

Chris a kind word of advice son, I'd delete this website from my address bar and from the entire memory from your computer, because should fate lead you back to this website by accident, this would make you a liar in the eyes of God, remember,

"Thou shall not bare false witness."

So now the webmaster has asked you nicely for $10,000, so God can purify his church.

I really hate to see you end up in hell on this one.

Just to really be on the safe side, I would suggest you get rid of your current computer and get a new one, ok?

God Bless!!

Dano said...

Chris wrote:
"I'm sorry, I have to close my end of the conversation. I haven't read anything you posted, the last thing I read on here was when I said, "Ohhhhh, now I know..." yesterday about this time. Sorry.

I've got too many irons in the fire and the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go. So I'm sorry if you wrote a reply to my five posts, I won't be reading it.

If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv."

Dano comments: I was feeling sorry for this 28 year old boy who got his cojones whacked and admittedly stuck his fingers in his ears and went "I DON'T HEAR YOU", and left looking like a 13 year old girl, but after rereading his last post, I noticed that he had the audacity to emphasize the word "must," as in "If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv."

Oh well, even so, he still is kinda pathetic.

Dano (..."the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go"... Give me a break!)

sav3dbythecrossx said...

well first of all it seems rather pointless to say anything to you since ive read what youve said to joel, and that guy definatly knows what hes talking about from what ive read. but anyway...you cannot say we arent christians becuase we are not giving you something the second you demand it becuase in the bible God says that nothing can take away our salvation.end of story. even if i killed myself and couldnt ask for forgivness of murder(since id already be dead) i wouldnt die because jesus took ayway all our sins, even the ones we havent even commited yet(including not giving you 10 dollars if ur considering that a sin). have u considered the fact that u might be twisting the meaning of that verse? Only God can interpert the bible for us. not you. but i will pray for you and pray that you become a christian, because you seem to be very impassioned towards things you believe, and if you were living for God right now instead of against him, then you could do amazing things for him.
love,
true christian girl

sav3dbythecrossx said...

oh and one thing i forgot to say is that in the bible God also says that we must be good stewards of God's money because it isnt ours, its his, and also we are to give to those in need. so to give to some random person who askes for money would be disobeying God because it would be unwise and not be making good use of God's money. However, if you do need money(im assuming you do not since you have enough money to make a website and enough time to update it) just go to any christian church or to a home of a christian and they will give you what you need. If I were grown up and in my own house i would give a stranger whatever they asked-shelter,food,clothes, but giving you 10 just to make a point is ridiculous, and i dont need to prove my salvation to you or anyone else.

boomSLANG said...

Young Chrisitian lass said[bold added]:

Only God can interpert the bible for us. not you.

Then she said:

oh and one thing i forgot to say is that in the bible God also says that we must.......blah, blah, blah, yada, yada.

Young lady, if "only God can interpret the bible for us", then you can't do it FOR US. You just blatantly contradicted yourself, big-time......but this is what we come to expect from theists. No shocker.

Stop making excuses, and pay the webmaster the money he asks for.(Or if your allowance doesn't add up to ten bucks... maybe he'll accept your Barbies in lieu of the monetary donation, but I doubt it.)

Kyle said...

sav3edbytx wrote, "God also says that we must be good stewards of God's money because it isnt ours,"

Have you ever bought nail polish or makeup and never used it or jewerly?

How about bottled water? The biggest rip-off in the western world.

Have you ever bought shoes or clothes, that you've never worn?

How about candy and ice cream or french fries or potato chips, not good for you, wasting God's money?

How about cigarettes or alcohol, or drugs, not using God's money wisely?

How about concert tickets, not very wise?

How about getting a pedicure or massage, not using God's money wisely?

All those vain uses, you could be applying that wasted money to do God's work?

I suggest you send in the ten bucks before it's tooo late, Jesus is coming real soon.

sav3dbythecrossx said...

READ THIS WHOLE THING


"boomslang"-first of all im 18 so dont act like you are just so much older then wiser than me especially because 1 timothy 4:12 says"let no man despise your youth but be an example of the believers". and i didnt contradict myself. the creater of the website is trying to tell us what god means. but i am telling u strait-forwardly what the bible says.

kyle- just because i buy one thing i want with money that i earned doesnt mean im going to hell. if that were true, everyone would be living in cardboard boxes.and i do use money for god's work. and ive gone on missions trips to africa which is another way other than money to serve god, SO DONT TELL ME IM NOT USEING MONEY FOR GOD CUZ I AM. the bible verse means that we shouldnt knowingly waste money.and to that last statement about me paying 10 dollars cuz jesus is comming, i know for sure that i dont have to buy my salvation with anything because it was a gift that i have already recieved.

TO ALL ATHIESTS: ok all we seem to be doing is arguing, and its very unproductive because you think you dont need God. But the fact is, theres only one answer. half of us on here are right half are wrong. I have faith that i am right, BUT

IF I AM WRONG, AND WHEN I DIE I GO INTO THE GROUND AND BECOME NOTHING AND CANT SEE, HEAR, OR FEEL, I WONT EVEN KNOW IT. I WONT EVEN KNO I WAS WRONG. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG, YOU WILL CERTAINLY KNOW IT

Astreja said...

*sniff* Smells like Pascal's Wager in here. (opens window)

sav3d, did you ever consider that both the atheists and the Christians could be wrong? What if "the truth" has nothing whatsoever to do with your religion? What if your god despises people who "believe" out of fear of hell, and admires those who have the courage to stand up to the Bible's barbaric threats of eternal punishment?

And, even after your earlier comment that humans could not interpret the Bible, you're once again attempting to interpret it for us poor, misguided heathens.

Many of us have read the Bible all the way through, some of us more than once. Some of us are ex-pastors.

I suggest that you do as we did -- Read your Bible over and over and over again until you see it for the vile monstrosity that it is. Not the "word" of any god worthy of the name.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dear Sav3...,


Please go to a good four-year college and learn how to write with proper grammar, capitalization and sentence structure.


That's all I've got to say to you.

boomSLANG said...

Sav3 retorted: "boomslang"-first of all im 18 so dont act like you are just so much older then wiser than me especially because 1 timothy 4:12 says"let no man despise your youth but be an example of the believers". and i didnt contradict myself. the creater of the website is trying to tell us what god means. but i am telling u strait-forwardly what the bible says.

First of all, I'm not "acting"....I AM older than you, and by the looks of your writing skills, I'm more educated than you, too. Nonetheless, let me be clear: Quoting scripture here is as useless as chicken dung on a door handle, 'k sweets?

Sav3: TO ALL ATHIESTS: ok all we seem to be doing is arguing, and its very unproductive because you think you dont need God.

TO ALL TEENAGED POST-PUBESCENT THEISTS: Whether one "needs" something, or not, has ZERO baring on whether that something exists, or not. Hell, I need to pay my home owner's insurance, so a pot of gold would come in handy about right now. Shall I go out search for rainbows tomorrow? 'Thought not.

Now, unless you have empirical evidence that your holy hand book was authored, inspired, or influenced by a "God"; unless you have empirical evidence that your Jebus exists anywhere other than under that pretty little skullcap of yours, you should really be on your merry way. Toodles.

sav3dbythecrossx said...

astreja-We don't believe out of fear of hell.We believe because we love God and have a passion to serve him and he fills our lives with joy. AGAIN I'll say that im not interperting it or telling you my opinion of what the Bible says. I'm telling you what I belive.
And none of you are ex-christians. Such a thing doesn't exist.The Bible says that nothing can take away your salvation, so if u are not a christian now, then you never were.

Webmaster-I'm glad to read that my internet grammar is the only thing you are criticizing.I was typing carelessly because I thought adults wouldn't be concerned with a matter so small such as a teenage girls grammar.

Boomslang- I don't need EVIDENCE that the bible is true.
When you told your spouse that you love them, what if they told you to prove it. so you would say "i love you" and give flowers or other nice stuff, but they said you had to show it. but you can't. when it comes down to it they just have to have faith in that love. thats the same way it works with God. He shows us his love and tells us about it in his Word, but theres no real way to PROVE it. you just have to have faith in it. Thats what God wants.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Webmaster-I'm glad to read that my internet grammar is the only thing you are criticizing."

No, your writing skills were the only thing I thought worth commenting on. The content of your postings are too infantile and ignorant to waste time addressing.

After college, come on back and chat. Until then, spare yourself the future embarrassment of having to look back and see what you've posted.

You'll thank me for this advice one day.

Dano said...

sav3dbythecrossx,
You will experience shear exhilaration, in a few years when it dawns on you, that more and more people are freeing themselves from the Christian Death Cult, and are paving the way for you to be free also.

Now with the advent of the Internet it has become impossible to fool every body all of the time, like they used to do.

Your generation is privileged, to be the first that will have a chance to live most of your life, marveling, that anyone could take the nonsense of the Bible seriously.

The ridiculous concepts of blood sacrifice for sin, heaven and hell, and Satan, and Angeles, and all of the illogical, irrational, junk that has ruined millions of peoples lives for thousands if not millions of years, can all be thrown into the trash heap of history.

Your generation will be able to channel the energy previously wasted on blind spirituality, into saving man from himself.

People have always been able to say God did it, and God will fix it, because that is what they were told to think. God, especially Christian God, has been out to lunch for a very long time and she didn't leave a message. You have a chance to do your own thinking now.

You have a chance to walk right up the Jerry Falwell's, and Joel Osteen's, and the Graham family and look them in the eye and say: "Prove to me that you know what God is, and what it wants, Prove it asshole, or get into your Mercedes and go get a real job!"

Dan (God doesn't want or need your worship, it wants your ingeniousness, to figure out how to eliminate suffering)

sav3dbythecrossx said...

webmaster-I don't need to go to college to learn how to love Jesus. He loves me right now even though I make grammar mistakes when I type. He loves me even though I'm still a "child", and I love him and I dont need to prove that to anyone and i don't need to argue about it because he died for me, so now I am going to live for him. It doesn't matter that you think my responses sounded childish, because thats how they should sound.Innocent.childish.And from my heart. thats what God wants. we are soposed to have "childlike faith". faith that you don't have to go to college to get. I won't argue with you, but I hope you understand what I am saying.

boomSLANG said...

Sav3 Boomslang- I don't need EVIDENCE that the bible is true.

Well then, that works out perfectly, doesn't it? And why?...because there IS NO EVIDENCE, that's why. The bible is not inspired by a "God", because there is not one single shred of empirical evidence for a "God". How convenient that you "don't need evidence".

Sav3: When you told your spouse that you love them, what if they told you to prove it. so you would say "i love you" and give flowers or other nice stuff, but they said you had to show it. but you can't. when it comes down to it they just have to have faith in that love. thats the same way it works with God.

The difference being, that when I want to tell my signifigant other that I love her, or where I put the extra house key, I don't need to go out and subcontract a bunch of drunk fisherman to take dictation in order to communicate these things--I TELL HER MYSELF. If I should come home from work and need her assistance with something?..she doesn't run off and play hide-and-go-seek, nor does she make me get on my knees and beg for her assistance. If I should offer her flowers, it's not under conditions. In other words, if she doesn't want flowers for some reason, I won't set her on fire. Nonetheless, she's THERE for me through thick and thin....I can see her, hear her, touch her, feel her..and Oooo baby..I can TASTE her!

The point being, my little fundy friend, that "love", and the communicating of that love, is a two-way street. Your invisble friend has had EVERY opportunity in the universe to reveal "Himself" to me, just like "He" allegedly did to HUNDREDS in the bible. Until that happens, I won't "pretend" that "He" exists just so I can feel warm and fluffy, 'm kay?

Sav3: He shows us his love and tells us about it in his Word, but theres no real way to PROVE it. you just have to have faith in it. Thats what God wants.

Please take a day and go hang out in a children's hospital, and tell the dying children about "God's love". I have "faith" that you won't.

sav3dbythecrossx said...

Boomslang: Actually you are very wrong about that last statment you made about me not helping childeren in the hospital, because i have already done that. I spent 3 summers in Malawi, Africa helping orphans who were dying of AIDS and telling them about Jesus.I love those kids with all my heart and I hope to go back there again. It was very wrong of you to make that assumption.

Astreja said...

Sav3d: "We don't believe out of fear of hell.We believe because we love God and have a passion to serve him and he fills our lives with joy."

Yet you and many, many other proselytizing Christians insist upon in playing the "Turn or Burn" card on non-believers. To quote your very own words:

"IF I AM WRONG, AND WHEN I DIE I GO INTO THE GROUND AND BECOME NOTHING AND CANT SEE, HEAR, OR FEEL, I WONT EVEN KNOW IT. I WONT EVEN KNO I WAS WRONG. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG, YOU WILL CERTAINLY KNOW IT"

And every single fucking time someone like you uses such a pathetic and disgusting bully-ploy, I delight in the fact that I am not a Christian.

Like it or not, by posting here you are helping us deconvert people. If that wasn't your intention, now might be a good time for you to leave.

boomSLANG said...

I second Astreja's motion. But first, let me straighten this out:

Sav3: Boomslang: Actually you are very wrong about that last statment you made about me not helping childeren in the hospital, because i have already done that. I spent 3 summers in Malawi, Africa helping orphans who were dying of AIDS and telling them about Jesus.I love those kids with all my heart and I hope to go back there again. It was very wrong of you to make that assumption.

Please re-read what I wrote, and do it in context to what you said in a prior post. To refresh your memory--you were going on and on about "God's love for us". Now, did I say whether YOU loved anybody, or not? No, I did not....nor did I say anything about YOU helping anybody, or not. What I was getting at, was that I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you explain to a 6 yr old cancer patient why "God"..i.e.."Jesus", blatantly ignores his/her prayers.

Yes, I was talking about your ALL-caring, ALL-powerful, ALL-loving, ALL-compassionate, ALL-knowing "God". I was talking about your "Almighty" deity sitting on his phat Golden Throne in the clouds, while looking down and watching children suffer on their death beds, and doing what???...DOING NOTHING about it. Because after all, ripping them away from their families and letting them die a long painful drawn-out death is a better "plan", isn't it?(don't even attempt to answer this)

Furthermore, and now that you brought it up---what helps prevent the spread of AIDS? Hmmm...well, my first guess would be an "ALL-powerful" being, but since we've established that this "being" is non-existent....either that, or a sadistic lazy prick, we can say that "condoms" help prevent the spread of AIDS, can't we? Oh but wait!....Catholics are opposed to birth control. Perfect. So religious dogma trumps MILLIONS of deaths from disease.

In the end---they'd rather be "right", than save lives. Nice.

sav3dbythecross said...

i am NOT catholic and i am DEFINATLY NOT opposed to birth control.there are a lot of things that catholics believe that have nothing to do with anything in the bible, so if you used to attend a catholic church im not shocked at how confused you are about some things, but thats beside the point i guess.

Since you say it's not fair for God to allow people to suffer(which happens because of sin, not because God makes it happen),and His allowing for that sufering has caused you to doubt Him, then isn't it interesting how those people who are actually the ones suffering accept God very quickly?
It's because they are sick,dying,starving to death,living without shelter,clothing,or a family.without love.They have no hope except for the hope Jesus gives them.Sometimes the reason God allows suffering is because that is what it takes to make someone realize the only thing they really need. Like Job, for example, who lost everything he had but still loved and served God.

.:webmaster:. said...

Sav3,

Do your parents know you are hanging out on this site?

You need to tell them, and if they grant you permission to hang out here, fine. Otherwise, please do not post here anymore.

Sincerely,

Dave, the Webmaster

sav3dbythecrossx said...

im 18.but talking to adults who don't respect God or me and who criticize other people's grammar and other rude stuff like that is getting kinda boring anyway so i guess i'll stick to myspace..it's way more interesting.plus i heard about a prayer wesite..mabe i'll go there so i can actually get some encouragement from ppl out there

Dano said...

I know that if I were writing a religion for the masses, one of the first things I would include, would be a warning about smart people. I would definitely demonize anyone using logic or rational thought.

I would tell my subjects to believe with blind faith, and include a warning, or threat to anyone, who attempted to interject intelligent thought into it.

I wonder where sav3dbythecrossx got the idea that God likes people with child like minds.

Surely there isn't anything like that in the bible!

This girl is of the generation who will be running our country in a couple of years.

SCARRRRY!


Dan (Gotta give up this reasonableness or go to the hot place where God teaches tough love)

Astreja said...

Sav3d said: "Since you say it's not fair for God to allow people to suffer(which happens because of sin, not because God makes it happen),and His allowing for that sufering has caused you to doubt Him, then isn't it interesting how those people who are actually the ones suffering accept God very quickly?"

Yes, it's very interesting. Lying to vulnerable people is an excellent way to control them (and, frequently, their families as well). Interesting... And heinous as well.

Theodicy ultimately comes down to making lame-ass excuses for a god that doesn't do squat to ameliorate suffering -- Most probably because the god never existed in the first place.

If the Biblical god was actually as powerful as Christians seem to think, it doesn't need to punish anyone for anything, let alone for "sin". It would be so powerful that nothing could wound it in the slightest.

And an all-powerful god that takes no action against suffering cannot be called good or loving.

The god of the Bible is therefore limited in power; evil; or nonexistent. Pick one.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I donated $10. I am a Christian. I don't understand it, and I don't claim to understand God or my faith. To many that seems ignorant - I understand that having lived some of my life without faith. I agree with some of you, disagree with others, and I don't choose to debate it. I do believe that Jesus didn't spend much time, at least as recorded in the Bible, debating His faith, which is why I make that decision, but again I don't claim to understand it - if I could, then I wouldn't need my God because then He wouldn't be much better than I. If anyone asks me questions, I answer from what I have studied (I don't totally reject the gift of intellectualism, I am studying theology right now), but I don't really believe anyone on here is asking any questions, just debating intellectual ideas.

woohoodaisy said...

Hi, i just read how upsetting it is for me to have posted anonymously - so i apologize, i am the anonymous poster from the previous post, please forgive me, as i had no idea that it was so upsetting to some people until i read some other posts on the site.

Jim Arvo said...

woohoodaisy,

Come off it. If you want to have a dialog, then you ought to use a unique name so that we can have a coherent exchange. Otherwise, it doesn't matter very much; scribble what you want and be gone. I fail to see why this has to be explained over and over.

woohoodaisy said...

i understand that now - i honestly didn't before, and i'm sorry. i have read a lot of the anonymous posts since i posted that first one, and i realize how annoying it is. i haven't been on many boards like this before and honestly didn't even think about it. again - i'm sorry that i didn't - it seems obvious now. if my last post somehow seemed sarcastic or upset - it wasn't. i just made an honest mistake and was trying to correct it.

Jim Arvo said...

No worries.

Dano said...

woohoodaisy,
Guess what? You, woohoodaisy, right here, right now, have the authority to walk right up to any of your professors of theology, look them in the eye, and say; "I know as much about God as you. I also know as much as the pope.

I know as much about who God is, and what it wants from us, as Billy Graham, Jerry Fallwell, or Joel Osteen, and all of the televangelist's combined, or for that matter, all of the Saints down through history.

You can't, honestly, tell me anything about God that I don't already know. YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

Honey, you cant explain something, that isn't definable.
Dan (Agnostic from Missouri)

Natasha said...

Dan, you are completely right. I do have the right and the authority do to that, and I can't begin to figure out who knows more about God than whom. I wouldn't say those things, not because I don't believe them, but because I am not sure what purpose that would serve.
Theology is just man's understanding of who we believe God to be, and the different things people have believed over history, and I really enjoy studying it - my professors do know more about that, so I appreciate their knowledge. I don't always agree with them, and sometimes I debate with them. Most of them don't mind.
I guess what I meant was more along the lines that I can't explain it, or understand it, but I'm okay with that. Sometimes I'm not okay, and sometimes I ask questions and wish I had the answers, but usually I'm okay with it. I realize that sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it's true. I'm okay with ridiculous. :)
By the way, my name is Natasha - thanks for changing it so you can't be anonymous - people like me won't be so confused!!

Anonymous said...

It seems to me in all the time you've been arguing back and forth and asking for money, a lot of work to better our world could have happened. Bitterness rots your insides. If you want to reject God, then move on. I have observed that the very things we become bitter about, we become. I'm now going out and putting my beliefs in actions by feeding the hungry today. I won't ask for anything in return. I just enjoy being part of a solution to what ails the world.

.:webmaster:. said...

Why would you think I'm bitter, anonymous? I was bitter, once, but now I maintain this site to provide a place for people to meet others who have left or are leaving Christianity. It's scary leaving a cult, and these topics and discussions are intended to stimulate thought.

So, what do you think? Did Jesus command Christians to give to everyone who asks or not?

If you're a Christian, then I'm asking you for ten dollars.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous: "It seems to me in all the time you've been arguing back and forth and asking for money, a lot of work to better our world could have happened."

And yet, here you are, contributing to the discussion. By the way, have you ever watched a movie, played a sport, read a novel, or done a crossword puzzle? If so, please explain why you engaged in those activities rather than working toward bettering the world.

Anonymous: "Bitterness rots your insides. If you want to reject God, then move on. I have observed that the very things we become bitter about, we become."

That's a baseless charge, Anonymous. Do you know the WM personally? Have you had a single face-to-face conversation with him? I suspect not. Then I suggest you forego the character assassination. It's not very becoming.

Anonymous: "I'm now going out and putting my beliefs in actions by feeding the hungry today. I won't ask for anything in return...."

Yet by telling us about it, you are using your actions to justify yourself to us, aren't you? So you are getting something out of it after all. Funny, isn't it?

Anonymous: "I just enjoy being part of a solution to what ails the world."

One of the major blights on this world is the strife caused by clashing religious beliefs. Have you addressed that problem too? Overall, I'd say ignorance and bigotry are massive problems that plague humanity, wouldn't you? I see this site as being part of the solution to those problems. A very small part, to be sure, but a part nonetheless.

Good day.

Cheryl said...

I believe in Jesus... and the resurrection. I also believe that Christ guides us .... and I do not get very good "vibes" from your philosophy. In fact I was insulted..you are trying to make a dime on the name of Jesus... My heart tells me when to give and has many times. In your case my heart turned cold... As I am sure many Christians that have visted your site have also experienced. Beware of the money changers in the temple.... Cheryl

Astreja said...

Ah, there goes another believer who thinks that "Give to all who ask" actually means "Give to all who ask, if and only if you get a warm fuzzy feeling."

It has nothing to do with "vibes", and everything to do with how to interpret the Bible quote in question. "All" is a pretty straightforward word, in my opinion.

Losing My Religion said...

WM...you said something up there (and I have read through the entire list of comments) that really struck me. You maintian this site for those of us who are "leaving the cult" of religion.

That is exactly where I find myself...and it is places like this and others that have helped me to see religion in general for what it is, one big sham. It is hard to leave the big cult of christianity behind...when it's all you've ever been taught/told/indoctrinated with for your entire life.

But, seeing the comments of the "righteous ones", I couldn't be happier to no longer be a part of that bunch of BS anymore.

Oh, and for the person up there who stated how Christ has been around longer than any of the other (imaginary) gods...

Hinduism is oldest religion still being practiced today.

Several other religions are almost as old as Hinduism. Judaism traces its roots back to the patriarch Abraham, but it was Moses (a MAN) who first recorded the Torah (much like the MEN who wrote the bible), the Jewish holy text, in 1,400 B.C.E. Most sources consider the date of the Torah as the beginning of Judaism.

Zoroastrianism is sometimes called the world's oldest prophetic religion. It's certainly one of the earliest religions founded by one person. Scholars are not certain when the founding prophet Zarathustra actually lived. Some believe Zarathustra lived in the 6th century B.C.E., while others trace his writings to the 14th or 13th centuries B.C.E.

India has been a veritable cradle for world religions -- in addition to Hinduism, both Jainism and Buddhism originated in India.

Oddly enough, the two religions that dominate the world today are relative newcomers to the spiritual scene. Christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E., and Islam started in 610 C.E. with the prophet Muhammad's revelation.

Just my two cents on the whole "oldest religion" thoughts.

And WM, thanks!

JesusFreak said...

You have indeed quoted the Scriptures correctly and for all intense and purposes kept them in context; however you are inferring something into the Scriptures that is not there. The Scriptures DO say to give to those that ask, but they DO NOT say that the asked for thing is what must be given. Instead of giving you $10 I have chosen to give you my time, attention and some wisdom, thusly I am still following my Lord's command and am thereby (at least in this regard) a True Christian.

A note: above I say "for all intense and purposes" you have kept the Scripture in context, however you took it out of its religious and historic context; Jesus was a Jew, speaking mostly to Jews so He and they would have understood Rabbinic Law, which (regarding giving) makes these 5 quantifications: 1)Giving must not be refused, 2)Giving must benefit the person to whom the gift is given, 3)Giving must be carried out privately and secretly, 4)The manner of giving must befit the character and the temperment of the recipient, 5) All there is thst id worthy to be given is of God, from God and for God.

#3 and #4 most specifically address your request here, for Christians to give you $10.00

The Scriptures do not, as you would have folks believe, insist that followers of Christ must, upon demand, give whomever, whatever they ask for.

JesusFreak said...

This is an edit to my above post.

1) I should have used the word qualify not quantify.

2) While I do assert that Jesus was speaking prdominately to Jews at the time the Scripture statement was made, it is still applicable to Gentile believers(non-Jews). It is necessary that if one is a Gentile believer that you familiarize yourself with religious and historic context of Sripture so that mokers do not lead you astray with these types of arguments.

.:webmaster:. said...

Hey, Freak!

That was great little tapdance you did to justify not obeying your god.

Applause all around.

However, your god-man said to NOT resist evil, to give to everyone who asks, that if you are sued at court for your coat, give him your cloak also, to give to him who asks of you and from him that would borrow of you to not turn away. The clear implication is that you should give MORE than the person asks, and the giving should reflect what the person is asking for, i.e.: coat vs. cloak; walking two miles as opposed to the one that was requested; etc.

So, again. I'm begging you to please cough up ten bucks. If you truly obeyed your master, you'd give me more than the ten I'm asking for ($20 maybe?). If you don't give me any cash, then you are admitting that you don't believe the command of your god-man, and therefore you are not a true Christian.

It's as simple as that.

I didn't ask for your advice, so instead of obeying your god and giving up a lousy ten dollars, you have become like the man who offers a pat on the back to the man who is asking for a meal.

JesusFreak said...

Here you require another lesson, because your hermeneutics are lacking. In the original Greek "resist not evil" actually implies not retaliating against it, it does not mean be submissive to it.

You also did not address the fact that 1) You have not asked privately for the thing and as this is a public forum I cannot give to you in secret, 2) your temperament and character are not befited to the $10.00 that you have requested.

If I assess a person's character and teperament (which by the way there are several scriptures that call believer's to do-you know the Bible so well look them up for yourself) and they are in NEED of a meal I will do all in my power to get them the meal, when I assess a person that is a mocker and a scoffer and I see that they twist God's word for ungodly gain, I offer to them that which they truly need wisdom, a dose of the TRUTH. You are not in need of $10.00 my friend (using the term very loosely), you are merly in need of salvation, which I cannot give to you. Petition Jesus, He offers that freely for you.

I will offer one more thing on your behalf, prayer.

JesusFreak said...

Another thought. Yyou are correct in asserting that the Scripture implies that the given thing be of greater value than what ws asked for, and Godly wisdom is worth far more than $10.00.

.:webmaster:. said...

Hello again, Freak.

Okay, so “resist not” doesn't mean “not resisting. Great.” I suppose all doesn't mean all either, as in "Give to all who ask. What it must really mean is to only give to those few whom you judge worthy of giving to.

It's wonderful that you can assess from the plain and simple words of your god-man that because I haven't asked privately for the ten-spot I am not entitled to it. That's a fascinating conclusion to come to. So unless you are asked privately for money, you never give it? Wow, great idea. I bet you get to hold on to the bulk of your capital that way. I'm sure the ministers who plead for your offerings would be pleased to benefit from your wisdom on that one.

Another tremendous talent you've developed is the way you are able to so quickly judge my temperament and character, simply because I ask you for ten dollars. I am thoroughly impressed. You certainly are a gifted man.

I'm wondering, how do you make a determination on who needs your generosity? You truly must have the mind of the Almighty in order to come to these nearly psychic insights into your fellow man on an Internet page.

Seriously, Freak, I agree with your assessment that Jesus' plain and simple command to give to all who ask is asinine. If people did that, they'd become the victim of every charlatan out there. I mean, if a guy said he was a preacher and asked for money to say, build a bigger building, or finance a bloated television ministry, or pay for a nice new Lexus, well meaning people could be severely taken advantage of. It's good that you are rejecting the plain teachings of an obscure, Middle Eastern peasant from the First Century. It shows some hope for your mental health.

Oh, and the prayer thing. Excellent! That way you can tell yourself you are doing something, although you are doing nothing, while blatantly justifying disobeying your god-man and keeping hold of your precious dollars.

You added that Godly wisdom is worth more than ten dollars... You don't believe that. If you did, you'd obey the wise words of your god-man and honor my measly request instead of stubbornly refusing and spouting self-righteously judgmental rhetoric.

You know, Freak, there may be one or two “True Christians™” out there, but you ain't one of them.

JesusFreak said...

It is funny that from a few posts you would assume that I am a man; I am not. I have however have assessed your character from the pseudo-intellectual tripe that you have provided herein. You like to spout off as if you know what you are talking about, but when I direct you to a very elementary clarification of the Greek you dismiss it because it does not fit with your false theory.

But then again, the very book that you use to pose this argument says of you:

Psalm 53:1 "A fool says in his heart, '"There is no God."

Proverbs 18:1-2 "An unfriendly man persues selfish ends; he defiles all sound judgement. A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airring his own opinion."

Proverbs 26:11 "Like a dog that returns to its own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly."

Isaiah 32:6 "For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: he practices ungodliness and spreads error concerning the Lord..."

So there is no more use for me to debate with you about this or any other matter of faith, to which you are blinded by ignorance, arrogance and hatred.

God's ways are not the world's ways therefore someone so worldly will not be able to comprehend His ways.

Praying discernment and salvation for you.

Astreja said...

JesusFreak, you have five minutes to provide physical proof that your god actually exists.

Not Biblical quotes. Not your own touchy-feely subjective experiences. Actual physical data that we can test in a laboratory and subject to double-blind experiments that can be published in a peer-reviewed journal.

If you succeed, there's a Nobel prize waiting for you.

If you can't do it, then you owe us all an apology for that "false theory" remark.

.:webmaster:. said...

Freaky, "fellow man" is an expression that has been used for many, many years and could be rendered "fellow human." This English expression is not intended to imply gender. And, there is no expression of "fellow woman."

That's your English lesson for the day.

Freaky, you can't read Greek, can you? You haven't studied Greek, have you? Where did you come by your information that "resist not evil" really means "resist evil?" You can't spell, your syntax is lacking, your knowledge and comprehension of your native tongue is barely adequate. Yet you deign to teach Greek?

Really?

Anyway, I accept all your curses and condemnations. I do not believe in your GOD. I am, according to your moldering book, hated by your GOD and destined for everlasting torment in your god's eternal torture chamber of unconditional love. I was a Christian for over three decades and passed out thousands of Jack Chick tracts in my day. I know about the fiery furnace of horror planned for me and everyone else who thinks gods and goddesses only exist in the imaginations of people.

OK. Satisfied?

Now, may I please have $10.00? Even though I am a non-believer, I am still asking you for this nominal amount. Justify yourself any way you like, but you are being disobedient if you refuse. Apparently you don't really believe Jesus is a god, or you'd obey his commands unquestioningly. Since you question, and doubt, and create ways to make a silly command make sense, it shows there is hope for your ability to come to rational conclusions. Continue down that path, and you'll end up like me.

And, if you think about it, you and I are not so different. You and I both reject the gods of the Muslims, the Pagans, the Shintos, the Hindus, the American Indians, and thousands of other gods throughout the history of our planet. I simply believe in one less god than you.

When you come to understand why you reject all those other gods, then you will, perhaps, begin to understand why so many people reject yours.

UnBlinded said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
UnBlinded said...

What is reality? In absolute terms, God. If a person is out of touch with reality, the world calls them...

WM, Christian do have a right to use God's gift of reason. Why do you think that your argument for "true Christians" with this request is so valid? You make me think of the pharisee's that were trying to condemn Jesus for healing on the sabbath. If you read John 7:21-24, is there any chance you'll see yourself as behaving like those pharisees? You are, these men were blinded by their arrogance and pride. Please try not to be offended. If you truly desire God's wisdom, take that anger, release it and plead with God for help!

Folks, there is a Truth, if you ever release that anger, pride & arrogance (the emotions so often displayed at this site toward Christ) and offer up a sincere plea to our Lord, He'll come rushing to your rescue.

For all of us Christian that hope for everyone's conversion, the most valuable thing we can do is sacrifice & pray. The most valuable thing you can do, if salvation interests you, is release all those ugly emotions that live in your heart and then look up. He wants us all back under His care to a degree that is humanly incomprehensible. He would never force you, He loves you and respects you far too much.

I pray that we all remain in touch with Reality,
Marc

JesusFeak said...

WM,

You used the term as gender specific not incorporative, reread your post. But that is what most of your responses boil down to, attacking syntax, redirect attention by noting spelling errors(mine is horrible by the way and you are not curtious enough to provide a spell check), rather than deal point by point as you demand others do.

As to your other question, Yes I do know Greek (Hebrew as well) doesn't everbody? I am not fluent of course, but I know enough (and know where to go when I need more info on the subject) to help me place God's word in the proper context.

Here is what I really wanted to articulate with tis post though, nowhere in my posts did I talk about, imply, or provide information that God hates you or is condeming you to hell, those were your own paranoid rantings. You see, God loves you (that is why Jesus came and died-for you) and is grieved by your hard-hearted, stubborn ways. I add my pitty to that, for what it is worth and will continue my prayers for you and your fans/friends/cohorts, the other - lost souls here.

Asterja,

I pose an equally preposterous challenge to you. You have exactly one minute, from when I post this, to provide to me specifically, physical proof that Socrates existed (the evidance must be here in my hand or you must admit that you are a sinner). There is my challenge to you.

Blessings to ALL of you!

Jim Arvo said...

Marc,

Your ad hominem attacks are very tiresome. For the benefit of those who have not read your lengthy posts in other threads, let me briefly summarize what we've learned about you:

1) You believe the gospel accounts are accurate because you trust them.

2) You believe the Pope because you trust him.

3) You believe in the "apparitions" at Garabandal because you trust the little girls who "saw" them.

4) You admit to having no evidence that your god exists.

5) You assert that there is no evidence supporting the theory of evolution, and you wouldn't believe it even if there was.

6) You believe that Behe's theory of irreducible complexity is scientifically sound.

7) You have never attempted to explain why you do not trust the prophets of other religions.

8) You have never once indicated that you can EXAMINE your own presuppositions.

9) You've promised numerous times that you would stop posting here, and simply pray for us instead.

10) You are shocked and dismayed that we cannot take you seriously.

Do you disagree with anything I just said? I hope not, because everything can be supported by your very own posts. Now, having said all that, if anyone here wishes to attempt to have a "dialog" with this person, all I can say is "Good luck. You've been warned."

JesusFreak said...

Just for my own sake really (and because I must return to work today), I am humbly bowing out now (at the feet of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ), because (as this is your site) I cannot ever hope to have the last word, of course. It has been interesting to say the least.

Again prayers for and blessings to you.

Jim Arvo said...

JF said "You see, God loves you (that is why Jesus came and died-for you) and is grieved by your hard-hearted, stubborn ways. I add my pitty to that, for what it is worth and will continue my prayers for you and your fans/friends/cohorts, the other - lost souls here."

JF, your post is filled with unsupported assertions and ad hominem attacks, just like Marc's posts. You can assert anything you want about your god; it's all meaningless speculation unless you have some credible evidence or cogent reasoning that such a being even exists.

Suppose I told you that leprechauns dress in green, have bells on their toes, and laugh in a high-pitched voice. Does that go any distance toward convincing you that they are real? How about if I elaborate further: they are jolly little fellows, with a penchant for mischief and chocolate-covered marshmallows. Does that help? No? Okay, how about this: they like to play card games and are masters at hide-and-seek. Now do you believe they are real? (I certainly hope not.)

As for your challenge about Socrates, I accept (although my timing is no doubt off). I know of no hard evidence that Socrates ever existed; I therefore admit the possibility that he was a literary invention of Plato. Now, how does that help your case?

alanh said...

JesusFeak wrote:

As to your other question, Yes I do know Greek (Hebrew as well) doesn't everbody? I am not fluent of course, but I know enough (and know where to go when I need more info on the subject) to help me place God's word in the proper context.

In other words, you interpret the Bible as you see fit.

boomSLANG said...

Christian fundamentalist asked(and answered): What is reality? In absolute terms, God[bold added]

Gee, it's *funny(both outlandish AND hilarious) that he should mention the word "absolute" in defining "reality", because if "reality" was absolutely "God", we'd have scientific, empirical, objective, testable, falsifiable, "concrete", evidence for such a "being". Yet---and not to sound like a broken record---but neither Mr. Blinded, nor any other theist, has offered one single shred of objective evidence for the existance of a "god". NONE.

And please, personal testimony is NOT objective "evidence". Can we stick that in our memory-banks? I hope so. Moreover, if groups of little girls seeing apparitions is "evidence" for a Catholic god, then groups of Muslims seeing Muhammad in a cave is "evidence" for an Islamic god. Likewise, then groups of people seeing a giant squid-lizard in a pond is "evidence" for "Nessy", and groups of people who have been abducted by little green men is evidence for real-life Teletubbies.....and on and on and on and on and on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

JesusFreak made the distinction that she is a "she", not a "he", and then followed up with a smattering of scripture from her Holy book.

Okay then, perfect, let's have a look at how women should be regarded according to the "Word of God":

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

Hmmmm....I wonder how many Christian priests would set their daughters on fire if they were caught "whoring" around?

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

OuCh! Okay then, it appears that female Christians shouldn't even be allowed to respond in forums like this. 'Sorry...::sniff, sniff::

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

So much for equal rights!

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

Nice. The Bronze-age answer to "family planning".

And of course, no fundy rant would be complete without this:

"A fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 53:1

Answer: "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matthew 5:22

Of course, all of these quotes might mean the exact opposite in "Greek", or "Hebrew". Yes, the bible was "inspired" by "God", but Mr. Omniscient didn't have the foresight to "dictate" it in all future languages. Yes, let's publish the driver's handbook in Spanish, and worry about translation later. 'Sound good?

As for the Socrates "challenge", I can't prove that he existed, just like I can't prove that Abraham Lincoln existed. But to the best of my recollection, I don't remember accepting the knowledge of either on conditions, namely, being incinerated if I don't accept it.

God 'less!... and may reason find you the both of you!

dano said...

UNBLINDED PRAYED FOR THIS:
"I pray that we all remain in touch with Reality,
Marc"

Without a doubt, the funniest line written on this blog in a long time.
Dan

.:webmaster:. said...

JF:

Setting aside all the rabbit trails so as to return to the basic premise of this article, your god-man is purported to have commanded that those who follow HIM should give to everyone who asks.

I am certainly among the "all who ask" and I have asked for $10.00 --a paltry sum. You, in response, have refused. This is the essence of our entire exchange.

From what I was able to glean from your responses, you justify your refusal to honor this command of your god-man because you doubt your god-man could have intended that you should give to all who ask. You believe instead that you are only required to give to some who ask. You have provided no scriptural basis for your refusal. You have provided no inventive interpretation of dead languages for your refusal. You have refused, apparently, because it just doesn't make sense to give to ALL who ask, especially when the one asking (me) is in opposition to your deeply felt religious views.

Although you probably don't (or won't or can't) realize it, we are very close in agreement here. I too think that such a command is silly, foolish, and even potentially dangerous. You and I have only one thing on which to base our opinions against this command: our ability to use our minds; our ability to reason.

So, as it should be, reason trumps faith and obedience.

Together we have used reason to arrive at the conclusion that giving to all who ask is not a supernaturally divine command.

The only difference between me and you is that I have gone down the path of reason, at least in regards to bold, supernaturally based assertions, a little bit farther than you. Should you ever choose to approach all the assertions of your religion with the eye of reason, you may find that you have many many more questions that need better founded and more reasonable answers.

On my part, I will hold good thoughts toward you. I am sure my mental exercise in this regard will be equally as effective as your prayers for me.

Peace.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and JF, I do see upon re-reading that I called you a gifted man. In light of what you revealed about yourself in your posts, I rescind and apologize for that comment. I was in complete error.

Astreja said...

No dice, JF. I do not feel a need to answer your request because I do not "believe" that Socrates was a god. Neither have I ever been a follower of Socrates. He might as well be a rock, for all I care.

You, however, are the one making extraordinary claims that defy the laws of science. I have never in all my life seen anyone arise from the dead, walk on water, yadda yadda, and I would guess that neither have you. The pathetic little stunt you're trying to pull is called "moving the goalposts." YOU are the one who must prove that there's an iota of substance in your silly, bloody, and expendable little religion.

UnBlinded said...

Let me summarize what we've learned about you.

1) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists. You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.

2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory. No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.

3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself. I wonder just what kind of lab you have to be able to confirm that DNA is a double-helix or that water is in fact 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.

4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you. Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes. What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.

5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.

The final summary of Jim is: Your will, simply won't let God anywhere close to your heart. God knows why and if your inner bearings are still functional, you probably know why as well.

BTW, I most certainly have and do recognize/EXAMINE my own presuppositions. This is why I laughed out loud to Dano's statement "Without a doubt, the funniest line written on this blog in a long time.". Why did I laugh? Because I hear and understand everything you people have written and can appreciate how, from your perspective, all of you consider me and all other Christians, foolish. I don't need to experience a paradigm shift to see where you're coming from, I see it. I've been there. You think that Christianity is a hoax. Unless you wake you, you're in for a surprise. I have been able to ask myself the question "What if we are nothing but the product of evolution?" but I can honestly say that I have never had the arrogance to come to the conclusion that a superior being cannot and does not exist. Have you ever seriously asked the question "What if the bible is true?" and read it within that context?

I think it all comes down to who's feeding you. I hold on to Jesus as my savior and He feeds me joy and peace in a world where no one can avoid suffering. The graces His Church can impart on it's members are the food for eternal life. Outside of His Church, the food is scarce and the land is dry and arid. If you want some of His bread, the bread of life, you'll have to come and get it. He's always waiting for you to turn your will towards Him. Without His food, it's likely very difficult for you to see and hear anything He's trying to say to you. Suffice it to know that He, your Creator, loves you immeasurably and is always waiting.

God bless,
Marc

Astreja said...

Well, this thread has taken an, um, interesting turn.

Apologies for the scenic detour of the past day... I went ballistic when I saw JesusFreak's "false theory" comment. And the reason is, oddly enough, related to the thread topic.

You see, I find it very odd that people claim their religion to be The Truth, and then turn around and find excuses for *not* obeying a specific command in the book which purports to teach that "truth".

Where does all this rationalization end? Really? First, "give to all" gets redefined; then some other commandment; then another... Do you see where this is going? If the believers can't agree on the meaning and ignore commandments when it's convenient to do so, it comes across as pretty fucking arrogant when you claim something else to be false.

Because of the structure of our brains and our limited perspective in space-time, none of us are in a position to know what absolute truth might look like.

Fortunately, absolute truth is not a requirement for day-to-day living. It probably never was, and probably never will be necessary. Think about it: Did you put exactly one cup of flour in that recipe? Did you get to work exactly on time? And so on.

But then, people of faith come screeching up in their Jesusmobile and attempt to recruit the various ex-Christians and non-Christians. They claim superior knowledge from a book of dubious origins and/or from the magic touch of a great big, powerful, invisible, intangible and perennially pissed-off being. We regularly get lovebombed with "Believe in my invisible friend or it'll burn you forever and ever, aay-men."

Seriously, folks. If you're incapable of demonstrating the existence of this holy bogeyman, and you ignore an unambiguous command in the book that you prize above all others... Don't expect us to take you seriously.

Anonymous said...

Let me summarize what we've learned about you.

1) You...

Who is 'You', Marc? Anyway, this is ME:

..believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists.

Nope, not me. I know that there is heaps more information validating other real-world possibilities, and NONE validating the "God Did It" conclusion which you have drawn.

...You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.

Wrong again. I AM open to the possibility, but there has yet to be any convincing evidence to support such an assertion. The complexity complexity around us (although perhaps not fully understood YET) does indeed have explanation, but YOU have yet to understand this.

...2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory.

'Pure' evolution? What the hell is that? People here adhere to different possibilities, but that's neither here nor there. We are all ex-christians, and that is the common denominator here. Personally, I don't give a flying FUCK how we got here. We're here, and that is that. Fact is, perhaps NO ONE FUCKING KNOWS, OK? You wern't there, and neither was I, nor anyone else for that matter. BUT I say that, unfortunately for you, your story does NOT offer any decent answer to this question at all. At least science TRIES to find the answer, and doesn't barf up some cop-out explanation like "God Did It". Even IF some god did indeed "do it", the next step is for you to prove that YOUR god did it the way you *think* it did! So shut up, Marc - you have less of a leg to stand on than ANY scientific theory.

...No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.

Blah blah. Do your research. Perhaps take some real-world science courses...

...3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself.

...That's your faulty conclusion. I personally listen to and digest everything. I process all information to form my conclusions. Again, just who is this 'You' you are referring to??

...I wonder just what kind of lab you have to be able to confirm that DNA is a double-helix or that water is in fact 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.

A science lab, you tard. Like those in the real world that have already done these kinds of tests. Has even this science evaded you?? Oh, shit...

...4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you.

No - we don't want to accept Marc's "truth" because it answers NOTHING, and can't be verified to be true anyway, so that means we would have to surrender our critical thinking skills to swallow it!

...Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes.

Hoo-boy. You have no understanding of me, nor anyone on this site on a personal enough level to make that statement, Marc. So shut the hell up.

...What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.

That's what Marc *thinks* we think.
Yet HE believes God made man out of dirt, and that we are nothing but his playtoys that he can kick around and impose his will upon..

...5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.

NOTHING inside ANYONE of us is hearing any truth from you at all. You have YET to back one of your assertions! What do you expect?? What, Marc? What the hell do you expect? All we keep hearing from you is your tired statements of belief - the same old song and dance that EVERY religious person spouts. It's BORING, OK? We've lost interest. You have produced nothing to back your case here. Nothing. You have yet to contribute anything worthwhile.

...The final summary of Jim is: Your will, simply won't let God anywhere close to your heart. God knows why and if your inner bearings are still functional, you probably know why as well.

The final summary of Marc is: "I'm to damn pigheaded to understand what everyone else is trying to tell me! La dee da! Hum ho! Perhaps I'll quote some more bible verses, and make more wild and crazy assertions! Yeah! That's what I'll do!! I'll destroy every shred of remaining credibility I have, while I make lunatic assumptions about other peoples' character..."

...Have you ever seriously asked the question "What if the bible is true?" and read it within that context?

Have you, Marc, ever seriously entertained the idea that YES WE HAVE?? Umm Yes, Marc. ALL OF US HAVE. I am surprised that you haven't figured that out by now. DON'T YOU FUCKING READ?!?

...I think it all comes down to who's feeding you.

We KNOW who's been feeding you!!

..I hold on to Jesus as my savior and He feeds me joy and peace in a world where no one can avoid suffering. The graces His Church can impart on it's members are the food for eternal life. Outside of His Church, the food is scarce and the land is dry and arid. If you want some of His bread, the bread of life, you'll have to come and get it. He's always waiting for you to turn your will towards Him. Without His food, it's likely very difficult for you to see and hear anything He's trying to say to you. Suffice it to know that He, your Creator, loves you immeasurably and is always waiting.

Eech. You can have your distortions if it makes you happy. I happen to love reality, and find it extremely fulfilling without the need for your 'god'. It's obvious by now what you're being fed, Marc, and if I were you, I'd start pushing that stuff to the edge of the plate...

-Wes.

Jim Arvo said...

Marc,

I'll deal (briefly) with your latest rant later. I take it you have no issue with my list of points summarizing your position. Good. Your list, on the other hand, could use a little work. (Thanks, Wes, for the head start.) In the mean time, you might want to think about pulling quotes of mine to back up your assertions; you'll find that you cannot.

By the way, I have never once "sought you out". Your posts are plastered in every thread. I find you offensive, so I confront you when I see your posts. If you don't like being confronted, stop posting here. Very simple.

More later, when I have some time...

alanh said...

Marc wrote:

You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory. No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.

I think your problem is you don't know how to accept evolution within a Christian framework, so you have to deny it. The last few popes have said evolution is true and have reconciled it with their religious belief, why don't you follow their teaching?

boomSLANG said...

Disclaimer: I cant take it anymore, so this won't be pretty, and I couldn't care less if it seems "intolerant". >= (

Okay, "Marc", aka "perpetually obstinate Christian"(because that's precisely what he is) is back, and said:

Let me summarize what we've learned about you.

First of all, just who in the hell is "we"? Please, let everyone speak for themselves, because I highly doubt even the dumbest Christian on the planet wants YOU speaking for them.

Continuing---evidently, you have learned jack-squat on this site, as evidenced in points 1 - 5. So, without further ado, allow me to correct your disorted erroneous f%cktard deductions:

Perpetually obstinate Christian(herein refered to as "POC") said:

1) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists.

Bzzzzzzt! WRONG. Read closely---I DIS-believe in god(s) due to LACK of credible scientific evidence FOR the existance of god(s). Si comprendo? Once more--the Atheist position does NOT say "god" is disproven, but that "god" is UN-proven. 'Follow? Please, remember the difference, and stop shifting the burden of proof. Thanks.

POC: You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.

Bzzzzzt! WRONG. Obviously, you are still intent on bludgeoning us to infinity with your "lookist" apologetic rhetoric.

Listen up---firstly, because something is "complex" does not mean it was intentfully "designed". Example: A stalagmite formation might seem "complex", given enough time. Hell, it may even "resemble" the statue of David. Okay then, should we conclude that the great Cave God, Abzu, "Designed" the stalagmite with a purpose in mind?

Then there's the lookist argument for God:

Lookist: "Hey everybody, look at that beautiful zebra galloping against that mountain range! Isn't it graceful? There MUST be a God!"

Lookist's nightmare: "Hey mommy, I just did a number 2 in the bathroom, and a woRM came out with the poop!"

So?... there MUST be a "Designer" for a f%cking tapeworm too, right? Male and female created He, them?....a f%cking tapeworm 'kind' rode "the ark"? Blessed is the tapeworm!

You can't have it both ways. THAT is the "lookist's" dilemma; that is YOUR dilemma.

POC: 2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory.

Bzzzzt. WRONG again, dolt. As pointed out to you numerous times, Evolution, both macro and micro, is both theory, and fact....FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT. BTW, Jim Arvo has kindly provided UMpteen links explaining evolution for your personal benefit, but obviously, you've read narry a one of them, so I won't waste another second discussing evolution with you. To do so, would be the equivalent of talking to a cinder block.

Cinder Block said: No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that....{blah, blah, blah]

...::yawn::...

POC: 3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself.

Yet, YOU "do not trust the testimony" of Joseph Smith(Mormonism), L.Ron Hubbard(Scientology), or Rael(Raelianism). Why not, Mr. "OpenMind"? Why not "believe" those other people's testimonies as "Truth"; why not take it on "Faith"? If you have any unbridled brain-cells left, gather them up and THINK objectively about it for a change.

POC: 4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you. Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes.

Seriously then, why aren't ALL non-believers out killing, robbing, and drop-kicking cats and dogs, since we don't adhere to your alleged "Divinely inspired moral absolutes"? 'Got an answer for that one, Einstein? Furthermore, if, as you claim, we get these "moral absolutes" from "Yahweh", why is it that out of the 1,200 or so "Christian" denominations, so many fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning things such as abortion, women's rights, death penalty, war, etc, etc?

BTW, earning a living on "the Sabbath" is a "SIN"..ie.."morally wrong", according to your holy handbook. Yet, what does YOUR "conscience" tell you about such an act being "morally wrong"? That it's a pretty f%cking absurd "law" in this day and age, I would hope.(not banking on it, though)

POC: What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.

I'm thankful Jim Arvo exists, too...and I especially await his shredding your pathetic "projecting" argument to bits. In the mean time, I'll just reiterate how disgustingly sad your little life must be to feel that you have zero control; zero purpose; zero net worth.... that is, unless the whole universe was "Designed" just for Marc, and he is "acting out" a plan for his Master so he can be rewarded like a little puppy later on. What a pathetic existance.

Marc(To Jim Arvo): 5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.

This was obviously not aimed at me, no, however.... it's quite possibly the most heinously inaccurate assessment I've ever heard on this site, especially considering who it's aimed at. ROFLMAO!

...::in McCoy's voice::..

"By golly, Jim!....there's only three hours before the ship blows up....just accept the Truth!"

dano said...

If Marc doesn't have the thinking skills to understand "Natural Selection," how is he ever going to be able to understand "Moral Evolution"?

He should have his own thread here, because he is the perfect example of how cults capture and destroy minds!
Dan

UnBlinded said...

Hey Wes and BoomSLANG, are you okay? You're going to give yourselves a coronary if you keep this up.

You don't want to meet Jesus yet, do you?

If you only remember one thing, try to remember that He loved you first and that His mercy is always upon you. He just wants you to give a little love back to Him...

Blessings,
Marc

.:webmaster:. said...

Marc, you're becoming a troll. Keep it up and every single post of yours on this site will be deleted.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay Marc,

I now have a little time, so I'll respond briefly to your comments. First, I'm quite happy that you attempted to summarize my position; in fact, I should have thought to coax you into doing it earlier. You see, one of the best ways to gauge somebody's willingness and/or ability to engage in a meaningful dialog is get them to state what they think the opposing view is; if they completely butcher it, even after it has been laid out for them, then there is little hope of anything coming of the dialog.

Now, in your case Marc, I and others plainly laid out numerous points, not once, not twice,but in some cases three times and more. Yet it seems you cannot bring yourself to express those simple ideas, which is a prerequisite to responding to them in a meaningful way. A couple of examples will suffice, as I see no reason to respond point-by-point. You said that I "...believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists," which is precisely the opposite of what I said. In fact, I've been quite clear about that from the start. You also said that I insist on verifying someone's testimony myself, yet I never once suggested such a thing. If you recall, Marc, I asked you many times to explain why you trust certain witnesses and not others. I gave you all the leeway in the world to answer that, and you never came near it. As a third example, you continue to misquote me, claiming that I "agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs." You apparently never read (or perhaps never understood) my remark, which I even carefully explained, for your benefit, in a subsequent post.

This presents me with a dilemma, Marc. I cannot help but conclude that one of two things must be the case: 1) You are being willfully ignorant (perhaps with the aim of being maximally annoying), or 2) you haven't the interest/patience/aptitude to grasp what people say to you unless it is in agreement with what you already believe.

If it's the former, then there's little point in trying to set you straight, is there? If it's the latter, then there's even less point in trying to set you straight. Marc, if you cannot grasp the most basic elements of what is being said to you, how is it that you expect to participate in a dialog? Honestly, it perplexes me. One can grasp an argument without agreeing with it; don't you see that?

I think everyone who has been paying attention here can state what your position is; reading a couple of your posts is sufficient to glean that you have an abiding belief that the god of the Bible exists, and that you see this being as exerting influence in your life and revealing himself through nature (e.g. natural theology). Moreover, you believe that there are trustworthy witnesses to various supernatural phenomena, such as the resurrection of Jesus and apparitions of Mary. I (and others) could make a rather lengthy list of things that you hold to be true. We hear what you're saying, Marc. We understand your position. We grasp what you believe, and to some extent why (albeit not perfectly, of course). However, the reverse is apparently far from being true, given your summary above.

One final remark. You said "BTW, I most certainly have and do recognize/EXAMINE my own presuppositions.", in response to my repeated assertions to the contrary. It's one thing to make such a claim; it's quite another to demonstrate it. After dozens of lengthy posts, Marc, you managed to show one instance of acknowledging a presupposition, but you've not shown the slightest inclination to question why you hold a single one, even after extensive prompting.

You've made it painfully clear that our words have absolutely no effect on you, which means that you are here to speak and not listen. That's what I find offensive about you. That's why you have no legitimate business here except, perhaps, to illustrate just how insular religious indoctrination can be. That point you've made blazingly clear, Marc. But then, all of the regulars here already knew that; all we can do is look at your posts and feel glad that we are no longer where you are now. Maybe one day you will see it too. Or maybe not. Either way it's of no concern to me, as you can choose your own path. Wouldn't it be grand if you could reciprocate!

kls said...

webmaster,

I want to ask you something

1. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

2. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

3. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

4. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

Which group do you belong to?

kls

.:webmaster:. said...

kls,

I will answer your question with a question. Please read the following quote:

"Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow. The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise. He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him. -- Surat Muhammad, Ayah 34:"

Now, I would guess that you think that quote is complete and utter nonsense and if I were to ask you which camp you reside in, strictly based on the quote, you'd say it doesn't make any difference because the statement is nothing but the statements of a controlling religious cult without any roots in reality or truth.

So, if I've guessed correctly, then you have your answer.

Now, may I please have ten dollars? Thanks in advance.

kls said...

Go work if you want 10 dollars.

I prefer you answer me with an answer and not with a question. I would like you tell me what did you think about the 4 groups I mentioned when you were a christian.

kls

Micah Cowan said...

kls,

That's too bad: your Lord and Savior loved to answer questions with questions, usually following with “then neither will I answer your question” when they refused to answer (as you have done).

Dave has already implicitly answered your question, but I have taken the liberty of answering your question for my own experience.

For my part, I fell into group 5 (an adaptation from group 4, which is a misrepresentation of the truth, as far as I'm concerned):

5. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He rejoices and revels in the simplicity and goodness of the seed, which quickly grows large; and truly, honestly, adores, loves and worships the Sower who planted it.
    Over time, however, this soil discovers that the mighty tree's fruit, which upon first inspection was sweet and delicious, and therefore good, is actually found to contain a subtle poison. Not only that, but upon closer scrutiny and testing of the tree, he discovers that it is thoroughly infected with a sickening fungus.
    The soil further discovers that the good and sweet tree is the product of a seed that had already been present in the soil before the Sowing (which, rather than being the work of a Sower, turned out to be the work of infected trees from other “good” plots of soil); and that what had been Sown was not a seed at all, but the spore of the fungus that had infected and manipulated the tree.
    The soil, therefore, being unable to completely destroy the tree and begin anew, is relegated to scouring the fungus from the tree, thereby reducing the poison it injects into the fruit. He may never be able to completely remove the fungus, but at least he can distinguish the true good from evil, and is no longer deceived by the fungus about any Sower or His supposed seed.

kls said...

Micah Cowan,

You obviously belong to group 1.
"1. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path."

There was no need of so many words. I was asking the webmaster...

kls

Micah Cowan said...

kls,

You obviously enjoy forcing people into constructed boxes in which they do not fit.

The webmaster has already answered your question; your refusal to hear or comprehend the answer, or perhaps to accept it, is hardly his fault.

And, as you have clearly demonstrated that you prefer your own preconceptions over actually evaluating potential truth, you can hardly blame any of us if we choose to ignore your silly questions in the future, much less constrain ourselves to your false choices (cf "false dichotomy").

kls said...

micah cowan,

Well, it´s abvious you fit in group 1. I do not force you. You just belong to this group.

I was asking the webmaster... "I would like you tell me what did you think about the 4 groups I mentioned when you were a christian." No answer yet.

You none christians can only see what you want to see, but when it comes to simple answers you prefer to flee or argue. I want an answer. Answer my questions, please. I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)

As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn´t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn´t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?

Now, please concentrate and answer the things I asked and not something else.

And again, if the webmaster really needs 10 dollars he´d better go to work and stop begging for such a low amount of money.

kls

Anonymous said...

Micah, give up on this guy. He's a troll. -Wes.

Jim Arvo said...

kls: "...when it comes to simple answers you prefer to flee or argue. I want an answer."

I never run from question. I welcome them; especially from Christians. In my opinion, they don't ask nearly enough questions.

kls: "I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)"

I've definitely answered that question before, although I don't remember if it was to you. Here is my plain and simple answer. I cannot.

kls: "As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn´t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn´t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?"

You are absolutely correct.

kls: "Now, please concentrate and answer the things I asked and not something else."

Ask away! I'm game. But you will need to agree to answer some of my questions as well. Do we have a deal?

Jim Arvo said...

Hi there kls,

I see you asked a "which group?" question above that you are apparently seeking answers to. I missed that before. I don't want to make you repeat your question, so I'll answer it as best I can.

Since the questions are clearly metaphorical, I'll take the liberty of interpreting them in a way that makes sense to me. If you intend something else entirely, then please be as specific as you can, and I'll try my best to reformulate my answer. As stated, I'd have to say that I see myself as being in group 4. Here is how I interpret the metaphor: I see it as asking whether one is receptive to knowledge; that is, whether one's thinking provides a fertile environment for "seeds" (ideas) to take root and flourish. I'd like to think of myself as always being receptive to ideas (at least I try to be), and nurturing them as best I can. Of course, my idea of nurturing ideas may be a bit different from yours. To me, the best way to nurture an idea is to gradually expose it to greater and greater scrutiny. Good things usually come from critical thinking--at least in my experience. Even bad ideas can shed a lot of light once it is clearly understood why they are bad.

I hope that answers your question. If you want clarification, or wish to rephrase your original question, please feel free.

Best wishes.

Dave8 said...

kls, your group theory suggests there are only four types of people that leave Christianity.

That is stereotypical, biased, myopic, and outright unintelligent. Here, which group do you fall into, that keeps you abiding to Christianity;

1-I like the doctrine, because it defines my identity, and I don't have to think very hard.

2-I like the social welfare, it allows me to have friends; since, I would have no friends because of my low self-esteem and lack of individual identity.

3-I grew up in church and was given religion, I'm still stuck in the indoctrination loop, and can't even understand this group, because I am not mentally free to do so.

Well, it’s obvious you fit in group 1. I do not force you. You just belong to this group.

kls: "You none Christians can only see what you want to see, but when it comes to simple answers you prefer to flee or argue."

You need a simple answer? Okay, you.

kls: "I want an answer. Answer my questions, please. I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)"

A no answer is an answer; prove that it isn't.

Oh, and the Jesus thing; you have to qualify yourself as one capable of presenting the topic of Jesus - else, your words and even question are meaningless.

So, how do you prove yourself worthy to present the topic of Jesus?

kls: "As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn’t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn’t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?"

Until you are able to prove yourself competent to establish the word Jesus, as something "more" than a mere word; it exists as nothing but a word, you know, in the beginning was the word, and the word was... kinda' thing.

.:webmaster:. said...

kls,

I answered your question. If you had ears to hear, you would have understood my answer. To make my answer clearer: I don't believe those statements you wrote were spoken by a deity. That parable was written by a man, a religious leader, and as such holds as much authority for me as any other religious writing from any other religion (i.e. none). Therefore, when you are able to explain to me why you ignore the Islamic quote I gave you, then from your own mouth you will have a detailed answer as to why I ignore your Christian quote. To be blunt, it doesn't make any difference what I think now about that parable or what I thought as a Christian about that parable, because that parable is just a silly parable written by a primitive religious cult leader.

Now, of more importance: Why do you disobey your god's clear command to give to all who ask? I am asking for a measly ten dollars. I'm not asking for 10% of your income. I'm not asking for your time or your talents. I am not asking for you to worship me, to have all your thoughts constantly on me, or that you attend thousands of meetings where you humble yourself before me -- I just asking for $10. Your god-man said to give to all who ask. I am certainly one of the "all."

What I am seeing from you is that you lightly ignore the teachings of Islam and you arbitrarily dismiss the teachings of Christianity. What religion are you promoting anyway?

kls said...

First thank all of you about your answers. I won´t ignore any of your postings and i will answer them one by one during the next week. I just want to tell you what happened about one month ago and then I would like to tell you what happened today.

I am a teacher in a school here in Mexico. One of my students, 17 years old girl was absent for about 3 weeks. One day she showed up and I asked her what had happened. She told me she had had a car accident and I asked her how was she. She told me she felt terrible for one of the girls who were travelling with her in the car is in coma after the accident. Doctors told the parents of the girl that their daughter was not going to live more than 36 hours. Anyway, the girl stood alive for more than one week. I told my student that I could pray for her friend and that Jesus can take her out of the coma. She agreed. I prayed. All the class prayed. We agreed that the girl is not going to die but will live.

Today I asked what happened with the girl we prayed for. Well, she went out of coma last saturday, my student told me. Who did it? Who took her friend out of the coma? Jesus of course.

Which reminds me of what happened to me at 18 of June 1992. I was trying to kill myself using pills which in Bulgaria (my motherland) are called Diazepam. I don´t know if pills like this exist in USA or all the rest of the countries the visitors of this website are from. Diazepam is a sleeping pill. I took 180 pills of Diazepam that day, 20 mgrms each. Someone found me on the street. 4 days later I woke up in a hospital and my parents told me that doctors told them I was not going to live. When I woke up I was completely blind. Doctors told me: well, you are going to live and it´s a miracle, but you will have problems with your kidneys and liver until the end of your life. The worst part is that you are going to be blind. You wont be able to see. Never. Doctors told me this. Meanwhile (I was not awared of that) a church was praying for me. I have a friend who is a christian. He told the church he was part of at that time they should pray for me for i was dying. Well, I´m obviously alive. I´m not blind, I have no problems with my liver or kidneys and I never had. Who kept me from dying that day? Jesus, of course.

Dave8,

that´s my answer of your question: "So, how do you prove yourself worthy to present the topic of Jesus?"

I will not answer you other way.

To all others I will be answering you during the next week for you were really active talking to me. Which is very kind.

My name is Martin. I am Bulgarian, I live in Mexico and the name of the student which friend was taken out of coma last saturday is Jocelin. She is 17 years old and she lives in a city near the city I live now. I will ask for the name of the girl that was taken out of coma and I will post it the next saturday for all of you. And remember:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."


kls

Dave8 said...

Martin: "that´s my answer of your question: "So, how do you prove yourself worthy to present the topic of Jesus?" I will not answer you other way."

Well, and there we have it. Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus? You have words that spell out Jesus, but you can't link them to your miracle, because you have never established an understanding or baseline to read the/a signature effect for a Jesus, other than in words.

If the story is a true event, then thank Nature, she works in mysterious ways. Oh, and if you need to know about the miraculous nature of the human body, and its ability to recover from trauma, just ask, I'll send you some stories of people who don't pray at all and have astounding stories of medical recovery.

Oh, why don't you obey your bible, and pay the webmaster?

Eftim said...

Dave8,

You are obviously a very young guy.

“Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus?”

If I tell you now ( let´s imagine) that I or someone I know met Jesus can you prove that me or the other guy didn´t meet Jesus? Can you prove that it was not Jesus who I or the other guy met? Can you prove Jesus is not the one He claimed to be? Do you know someone who can prove it? Do you know someone who can prove that me or a friend of mine did not meet Jesus? Do you know someone at all who can tell someone that the One he met was not Jesus?

How can you prove that it was not Jesus who kept me alive and it was not Jesus who helped my student´s friend go out of coma?

Nature is not someone. Nature is something. Laws were established in nature by Someone who has the capacity to establish such powerful laws. The One who created nature. If it was up to nature itself I would be dead since the day I took 180 (a killing doze) pills of Diazepam. Ask any doctor in the USA or wherever you are from and he´ll tell you. Nature is helpless in situations as these ones, man.

Dave8, webmaster,

10 dollars:)

There was a time when Jesus (the One and only God) went to the desert and was fasting there for 40 days. At certain time devil came to Him and told Him: "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." If you are the Son of God… Jesus was the Son of God, anyway. There was no need to prove the devil that He is the One He claims to be. There was no need to do something to prove it to someone. This is a FACT. Jesus answered: "It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” I´m interested in something-would you both respected Jesus more if He had commanded the stones to become bread? Would you really, really think: “wow, this really, really is the Son of God. Behold, devil went to tempt Him and he really tempt Him.” It´s the same old story, webmaster. I am a true Christian not because I will send you 10 dollars or because I obviously won´t but because I believe in Jesus Christ. He paid for me and converted me into a Christian and paying to a tempter to prove something I already am is not adding anything to my being. I would answer you like this: It is written: “do not throw your pearls to pigs.”

webmaster,

“I'm not asking for 10% of your income. I'm not asking for your time or your talents. I am not asking for you to worship me, to have all your thoughts constantly on me, or that you attend thousands of meetings where you humble yourself before me -- I just asking for $10. Your god-man said to give to all who ask. I am certainly one of the "all."

Jesus NEVER asked for 10 % of my incomes. Read the New Testament. Your thoughts can be on Him, because there is actually nothing more interesting than thinking about Him. It´s not a requirement. It´s the Holy Spirit who lives in you. Well, He does not live in you exactly but in a person who believes in Jesus Christ, a Christian.

The Islamic quote:

I do not know where is this quote taken from. Let´s read it one more time.

1. "Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow.”

Jesus has no slaves but friends.
We have to follow only Jesus and not Allah, someone who appeared like 600-700 years after Jesus and until now is fighting against everything that was based on His teachings. One recent example is 9/11.

2. “The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise.”

Don´t know what do you expect to hear at that point. Allah is not God, Muhammad is a prophet but not of God. You can worship Allah as much as you want without any result and you can worship Jesus and see results in your life. Do it and you will see. That can be proven.

3. “He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease.”

We do not have to wait until dead only to see that something is not OK with Islam, man. Just look at the Islamic world and you will see the way they live. For most of them there will be a very little difference between the way they live now and the way they are going to live after they die. The main difference is that after they die they are going to suffer forever and while alive they are going to suffer only until the day they die. That´s a very sad statement and I´m sorry it sounds that bad but it´s true. That´s what devil wants. He wants all the mankind living as in Afganistan. Or who knows, maybe as in North Korea, where Jesus is not Lord either.

4. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him.

Allah has neither power nor authority to forgive.

Hope that answers your questions.

Jim Arvo,

We have a deal. Ask! Christians do not know everything. Christians know the truth.

Sorry if I missed something.

.:webmaster:. said...

Eftim,

You called me a devil and a pig. That's not very polite. It is a typical Christian behavior, however, to pick verses out of context and use them as weapons against people who don't believe in your fantasy.

If I read your response correctly, you disbelieve in Islam because, you disbelieve in Islam. You realize that Islam is a ridiculous man made religion, but you seem unable, or unwilling, to see how ridiculous your own religion appears to others.

Slaves:

Luke 12:37
”Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.”

Luke 17:10
"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Romans 6:19
I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

But

It makes no difference if Allah has slaves and Jesus has friends, as they are both just men starting up a religion. That is the point I was apparently pointlessly hoping you’d understand.

“Allah has neither power nor authority to forgive.”

And you believe that Jesus does have that power and authority, right? Why do you believe Jesus has that power and authority? Because someone who wrote a story about him said so? You believe because his followers said he is a god? Is that all it takes for you to believe in a religion, to have someone from 2,000 years ago say it's true? Islamics say their religion is true. Why not believe them? Why are you so sure your religion is the one and only truth? Is it only because it is not as old as your religion? There are many, many religions older than Christianity. Do you think you’d believe Christianity was true if you’d been born and raised in Iran? Why or why not?

Dave8 said...

eftim: "Dave8, You are obviously a very young guy."

How old exactly do you believe I am? What do you consider "very young"?

How did you conclude my age? What rigor do you employ to reach a high level of veracity on your claim? Do you use such rigor to test or research your theist/religious belief?

Let’s suggest very young to most people is less than 30 years of age; of course, that would make you wrong in the assessment you made. I suspect that you come to many different wrong conclusions, using the same thought process you have shown here in your very first sentence.

Dave8: "“Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus?”"

eftim: "If I tell you now ( let´s imagine) that I or someone I know met Jesus can you prove that me or the other guy didn´t meet Jesus?"

If I tell you now, to meet me at my favorite clinic, to make your statement, and I pull out a polygraph, EMI, sodium-pentothal and a few other toys, I think I'd be able to come pretty damn close to the veracity of your claim. That is, if you are being deceptive, and haven't been trained to lie while keeping a straight face, I hear there are some great teachers in the clergy these days.

If you are mentally unstable, for a myriad of reasons, then obviously testing you is of no use, I would not be able to prove anything that you say without finding corroborating evidence from a secondary source.

By the way Paul was portrayed as mentally unstable by the Orthodox Jews, and even in the bible itself - Paul was incarcerated for mental rage portrayed in public.

If you have hypnotized yourself or have been indoctrinated into belief, and you hallucinate as a result, is the hallucination real? Sure, in your mind, it would definitely appear real, and as long as you kept it in your mind, then most people would allow you to live in peace.

However, if you suggest that other people should believe you; then you have to meet "their terms" for proof. My terms, require more than words on a piece of paper, I require multiple sources from oppositional parties who are disinterested in the outcome of their claims.

I'd require the evidence to be proportional to the claim being presented; if it is of a god that was claimed to have changed the Universe and all of humanity, I'd like a personally signed biography, a painting in that era of the god, a statue in that era of the god, anything of that era that "represented" the particulars of that god, yet, there isn't even a book in the bible written by the very Jesus you suggest existed.

You've come to this blog, and posted the word "Jesus". I see the "word" Jesus, and nothing more, sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. I can't prove that you don't believe what you say, but I can't prove that you aren't mentally unstable at the moment, but... give it a little time, if you keep posting.

eftim: "Can you prove that it was not Jesus who I or the other guy met?"

See previous statements, and again I have just as much evidence to believe you are mentally unstable, as I currently have for the veracity of any claim you make.

eftim: "Can you prove Jesus is not the one He claimed to be?"

I don't have any evidence that He even existed, all speculations beyond this point are attributed to other people and what "they" claimed him to be.

eftim: "Do you know someone who can prove it? Do you know someone who can prove that me or a friend of mine did not meet Jesus? Do you know someone at all who can tell someone that the One he met was not Jesus?"

Again, if you are trying to convince "me" of your claims, because it is "you" who came here, then it seems only logical that you must cater to my level of rigor for validating evidence.

Your words don't do it, however, maybe you personally were willing to just arbitrarily accept someone else’s' words, and build an entire belief system, but of course... that's you, not me. I am not challenging the level of conviction you have in your belief, but that isn't proof enough for me.

If you wanted to argue that Jesus is an Ideal, and not necessarily a physical entity with all the Christian attributes assigned, then it would be much more interesting. However, ideals are based on personal desire, and need, your ideal would just reflect such, and would only prove to me the underlying needs and desires you have to support your ideal(s).

eftim: "How can you prove that it was not Jesus who kept me alive and it was not Jesus who helped my student´s friend go out of coma?"

Sorry, it's "your" job, once again, to "prove" to me, that the letters J-e-s-u-s, represent an external force involved with you and your student's recovery. So, can you explain why so many people "die" as a result of believing in the word Jesus?

And, please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by giving a simpleton answer like; it must have just been their time to go, as "if" you actually believe that is an "answer", that's a guess. And that very guess is the same one you would use to guess when Jesus was saving people as well. So, again, the veracity of your claim(s) are being challenged, not your conviction, believe what you want - I need more than your conviction, pressure sales do little for me.

eftim: "Nature is not someone. Nature is something."

Oh, well, I was being sarcastic; however, it appears you want to get into a discussion on substance. So... how many substances do you believe comprise the Universe/Nature? Surely, you have to suggest more than one, else there couldn't possibly be either a “someone” or "something", that would show internal conflict in your logic, and of course, that would make you look intellectually inept.

However, I do await your response, since I am currently trying to mature to your most eruditious insight. Perhaps, we should see your next publication on this topic being nominated for a Nobel Prize?

eftim: "Laws were established in nature by Someone who has the capacity to establish such powerful laws."

And, why wouldn’t it be just as logical to suggest inversely that powerful laws in nature established someone?

eftim: "The One who created nature."

Or Nature is the One... care to discuss how you believe your mind has the capacity to talk about "more" than the context of Nature? I mean, you are living as part of Nature, right?

eftim: "If it was up to nature itself I would be dead since the day I took 180 (a killing doze) pills of Diazepam. Ask any doctor in the USA or wherever you are from and he´ll tell you. Nature is helpless in situations as these ones, man."

Really and how did you come to that conclusion? Please explain how you aren't part of Nature, how the doctor that assisted in your recovery isn't part of Nature, how the very environment you were hospitalized in, wasn't part of Nature... which part of your experience in the whole matter, from your birth until "now", wasn't part of Nature.

Michelle said...

Martin,

I am glad to here that the young girl came out of her coma, and that you survived your brush with death.

Here is another perspective.

Last month my 25-year-old brother died from complications of non-alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver. An internal bleed weakened him and put him into a coma. My grandmother, who has been a stout Christian for 30+ years prayed over him feverently, moving even an ex-christian like myself to tears. My uncle, another faithful christian, prayed over him. My uncle's church prayed for my brother. Where did all this prayer get my brother? Nothing. He died anyway.

So you see, according to your god, as long as you ask for anything in his name and believe, you will receive. Do you suppose my Christian relatives didn't pray hard enough, believe enough, or whatever? Was Jesus napping while my brother was dying?

Please explain to me, Marin, why your jesus chose to save you and the young girl but not my brother.

Michelle

kls said...

I don´t know why, Michelle.

Michelle said...

It's too bad that god's all-knowing holy spirit that dwells within you hasn't revealed to you the answer to my question, Kls. God sure knows how to keep people on their toes. Just when you think you know the rules, they change without warning, without explanation, and we're supposed to grin and bear it.

kls said...

Christians don´t know EVERYTHING.
We were not supposed to grin but to believe. I don´t know why someone I do not know is dead. May be other people on this website could give you the correct answer. Of course Jesus is the guilty one, who else could be. Even though isn´t sure Jesus exists, He is the guilty one. For all things. Forever!!! People are blameless, devil doesn´t exist and if by any chance he exists, he is not guilty for anything. He is the good guy. Jesus is the bad one.

kls

kls said...

Hey, Dave8

sorry man, i didn´t see you answered me. Well, the only thing I was wrong is your age. I thought you were 19.

kls

Michelle said...

Kls, I am sure you were being sarcastic about jesus being the "guilty" one. No, jesus did not kill my brother. Complications from non-alcoholic cihhrosis and negligent hospital staff did. My comment about jesus napping was facetious, since I don't believe in him. The point I was trying to make was that prayer and faith in god/jesus will not necessarily save someone's life. It's a 50/50 shot, just like every other thing in this life.

I believe I will see my brother again, but not in some biblical "heaven." Again, Kls, I'm glad you got a second chance at life. Live it to the fullest.

Anonymous said...

You guys can have all of your fun and arguments, but I tell you, there is no such thing as an exChristian.

There are many things done in the name of Christianity, but mostly by people who call themselves Christians.

Calling yourself a Christian and being one is two different things.

It's true that 80% of the population consider themselves Christian, but the truth is that only 10% or less are actual Christians.

boomSLANG said...

Christo-droid blathered: You guys can have all of your fun and arguments, but I tell you, there is no such thing as an exChristian.

This? again???

Good grief. Okay, yes, YES there most certainly is such a thing, and to analogously illustrate how asinine your assertion is, I would like you to click the following link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExMilitaryWives/

Then I would like you to click on the chatroom link at the bottom of the page, and spark up a discussion stating things like, "there's no such thing as an ex-wife". Would you do that, 'droid? I double dare you. Yes, tell them things like, "you were never really married", and that, "you didn't try hard enough", and that, "your husband still loves you....but you just need to open your heart".

Let us know how that goes, m'kay?

Anony continued: There are many things done in the name of Christianity, but mostly by people who call themselves Christians. Calling yourself a Christian and being one is two different things.

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. Either everybody who "calls themself" a "Christian" IS a Christian, or nobody is a "Christian". Most assuredly, YOU wouldn't allow some other person to determine if you were a "Christian" or not, because it's NOT for them to determine, is it? Damned straight..."hELL NO", so likewise, it's NOT for you determine if someone else is a "True Christian", or not.

Furthermore, that fact these self-titled/self-elected "Christians" fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning such issues as abortion, capital punishment, right to life, homosexuality, evolution, etc., etc., clearly shows lack of a unified objective "Truth".

Christo-droid concluded: It's true that 80% of the population consider themselves Christian, but the truth is that only 10% or less are actual Christians.

Please provide the link for these "statistics". Thanks.

Anonymous said...

By the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1, people shouldn't be worshipping Christ. He was seen, heard, and even touched, whereas it says that faith is "the evidence of things not seen."
I choose to go direct, not going to church, and not submitting to the distorted doctrine and dogma, but blowing it out of the water.
Here's some math for you. Revelations starts out with Christ dictating 7 letters to the Apostle John, having him deliver these letters to seven churches LESS THAN 100 YEARS after Christ's ascension. Only 2 out of those 7 churches received letters of enouragement, while the other 5 received letters of warnings, pleadings and scoldings. Again, that was less than 100 YEARS after the start of Christianity. No wonder when you multiply by 20, you get priests going down on boys and pastors of influential churches smoking meth and getting homo.
I have nothing against God or Christ, just the sheeple that attempt to get their spirituality by going to church and getting b.s. spoonfed to them from the pulpit.

Dave8 said...

kls: "Hey, Dave8 sorry man, i didn´t see you answered me. Well, the only thing I was wrong is your age. I thought you were 19. kls"

It's okay, hormone rage is tough when you're in puberty; hope you get past it.

Ken said...

The word of God is SPIRIT - not merely printed words on a page. If you had spiritual discernment you would know that "Give to every man" is referring to not shutting your bowels of compassion - see Deut 15:7-8,10; Pr 19:17; 21:26; Mt 5:42.

Also you should know that your argument is just like the devil's when Christ was tempted in the wilderness. Luke 4:12 "And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." -- The answer Christ gave stands.

.:webmaster:. said...

Hi Ken,

Wow, that's an inventive interpretation! Very good!

Isn't it wonderful how many different ways "God's Word" can be rephrased and interpreted so that it means whatever we want it to mean. In any event, it rarely, if ever, means exactly what the words clearly communicate.

Awesome!

However, I'm still asking you to empty the bowels of your compassion on me and cough out a measly ten dollars. Can you pinch out that much? In the name of Jesus?

Thanks.

Dave8 said...

Ken: "The word of God is SPIRIT - not merely printed words on a page."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Therefore, in the beginning there was God the Word... So, God is a Word...

Hey, Ken, if you believe the printed word God "refers" to an "identity" beyond the context of printed "text", then describe the "identity" and give evidence for your claim... While you are at it; attempt to give some evidence on what a "SPIRIT" is...

I find it somewhat humorous, that you use two words that have no identity outside printed text, to validate eachother... thanks for that, I needed some humor...

Bugs Bunny exists as a real live rabbit, because Daffy Duck says so...

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