6/20/2002                                                                                       View Comments

NO TRUE CHRISTIANS!

There is no doubt in my mind that there is not one true Christian on the planet, and I can prove it. There are several signs of a true believer that are very plain in the Bible. Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context.

Let's consider these statements supposedly written by the Apostle John, otherwise known as the disciple whom Jesus loved, as he quoted his master and his God:

1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2) John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
3) John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This seems pretty plain to me. If you love the Lord, you keep his commandments. Simple!

John the Apostle emphasized this particular aspect of authentic Christianity here:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I cannot imagine a single Christian anywhere in the world denying the plain words of these particular statements which are echoed elsewhere throughout scripture. So what is my point?

This is my point:

I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

I do not expect to receive even one donation, even though $10.00 in US currency is almost nothing. Even though my motives can easily be interpreted as selfish, or blasphemous, or even evil, the plain teaching of these passages is that Christians should not resist evil, and should go ahead and give to anyone who asks, not regarding the motives of whoever is asking. God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian.

It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM.

As I said, I don't expect a single dime from this scriptural request, for the simple reason that I do not believe anyone really believes the Bible, and there are no real Christians. Christianity, like every other religion, is only popular to the point where it gives something to the adherents. When it asks something that seems unreasonable, like giving an obvious apostate exchristian website some money, well, then common survival sense kicks in and the cash stays in the wallet regardless of clear instructions.

The Lord commands Christians to give to everyone who asks, even evil people. Of this there is no doubt, but I will receive nothing for my honest and open request - why?


June 27, 2002
It seems I have to make a slight correction here! There is ONE true Christian out there. I received one contribution in the mail today of $10.00. Of course the fact that she is my natural sister should have nothing to do with disallowing the contribution, as she is a Christian.

SO, I stand corrected, there is ONE real Christian.

Sept 2002 finds another generous soul out in cyberspace

I was challenged by a visitor to the site who "dared me" saying he would donate to my site the $10.00 I was asking for if I would dontate to a mutually agreed upon charity. The deal he suggested was that I would donate a sum of money and he would match that sum and add the ten dollars. I suggested MDA as a place to put our money where our mouths, or typing fingers, were and he agreed. I received his check in the mail, forwarded it on to MDA with my own donation of one hundred dollars and had a thank you note sent to him with a receipt of his donation.

I am not sure what point he was trying to make with this wager, or if any point at all was being made, but MDA benefited from the exercise to the tune of two hundred dollars, so something good did come of all the rhetoric this time.

In fact, it was kind of fun!

Perhaps we will do it again!

534 comments:

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Ken said...

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ken said...

If I was to take a page from your book and set up my own conditional straw man I would be belittling you as you belittle the little ones who come here.

Do you believe you evolved from a rock over billions of years (scoff)?

Where you there?

How do you 'know'?

So you maybe promote an imaginary 'big bang'? How laughable. Where you there? Where is your 'evidence' of such a foolish claim?!

You probably belive all the matter in the entire universe was compacted into an infintisimal dot no bigger than the period on this page (after all thats the drivel you were indoctrinated with in your youth).

Where you there?

Did you see it?

Can you PROVE it?

You are fools with no evidence and fail at your own game of 'who knows best.'

Oh, yes, I could indeed play your game and scoff right back at you.

You take the easy, but deceitful, position and try to get others to play by the rules you impose.

Jim Arvo said...

Ken,

I'm not sure what you're doing here. You are parroting some standard creationist claptrap that betrays an astonishing lack of curiosity. True, nobody saw the Big Bang, and nobody watched evolution happen. Nobody has seen glaciers move or atoms collide either. If "seeing" is your criterion for "knowledge", then you're be destined to know effectively nothing. Perhaps you also deny that sequoias grow from seeds and that the Civil War actually happened--unless you were there, of course.

By the way, I doubt very much that you could "play my game", as my "game" is based on evidence and reason. It also goes by the name "science". If you would like to give it a go, then I'll happily indulge you. Where would you like to start?

Good day.

stronger now said...

I got to put on some popcorn for this one.

.:webmaster:. said...

Ken wrote: "If I was to take a page from your book and set up my own conditional straw man I would be belittling you as you belittle the little ones who come here."

The way I understand setting up a "straw man,” it is when someone creates a clownish caricature of some idea or other just so it can be knocked down. Please explain what part of the article above is a caricature of what your god-man supposedly commanded.

This article has nothing to do with evolution, BTW, but everything to do with why even Christians refuse to obey the silly commands in the Bible. Regardless, since you insist on talking about evolution, I will say that evolution is irrelevant when it comes to debating the existence of a magical mind floating out among the stars, waiting for the day when it will pour out its vengeance and wrath on unbelieving little human beings.

In a nutshell, here is what I get from your rant: You find it unreasonable to assume that nature is natural. You do, however, find it reasonable to assume that nature is magical. And since you think magic is reasonable, your god, therefore, exists.

Did I get it right? Or did I just set up a straw man?

Oh, and may I please have $10?

Chris said...

To my fellow Christians who are trying to argue with these people. Please read and understand 2 Peter 2 and Romans 1-3.

To the Xians: We still love you. :-)

.:webmaster:. said...

I take it, Chris, that this means you won't be obeying your deity's command either?

Hmm.

chris said...

No, I won't be "obeying" your sinister misrepresentation of Christ command. Good day. :-)

Soli Deo Gloria

chris said...

Oh, I will be praying for you guys (and gals) though. :-)

.:webmaster:. said...

Sinister misrepresentation?

Wow!

So, how did I misrepresent HIS words?
HE said, "Give to everyone who asks," right?

Well?

Care to explain where I got it wrong? Or is accusing those who differ from you as being sinister all you have in your apologetic arsenal?

Oh, and I will be hoping that you one day regain your ability to reason coherently.

:-')

Dave8 said...

Ken: "If I was to take a page from your book and set up my own conditional straw man I would be belittling you as you belittle the little ones who come here."

Do you consider yourself one of those "little ones"?

Strawman: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You are a "theist" no? By definition you suggest there is a "God", no?

Is that portraying or mischaracterizing "your" position? If so, how so?

If you suggest that you "know" a "God", then, again, as asked of you, take your "little" finger, and "point" to the exact "object", that your word "described" in "our" Reality...

If you "can't" find something to "point" to, then, all you have left to point at, is a "word" in a "book"...

If you find that you're impotent in the effort, "don't" blame others for your failures...

I have just as much right, to ask you to support your God "proposition" in the affirmative; as you have for telling me your "God" in fact "exists" as an axiomatic truth, "beyond" the words in a "book"...

If you don't like being asked to "make sense" out of your position, "after" you have affirmed a God proposition, then, don't bring it up - else, you appear a fool.

Ken: "Do you believe you evolved from a rock over billions of years (scoff)?"

Do you believe humanity was created from "dirt", in a Garden, a few thousand years ago (scoff)?

Regarding a cosmological argument; I agree with you, I wasn't there... however, we can actually talk about your question because it appears, we can "assign" an identity to the words you are using, which makes the question actually "valid"...

"you" = me... "I" have an "identity", the nature of the identity is physical... validated, based on physical evidence...

"believe" = a personal "idea"... My "ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on personal ability to "affirm" the "unknown", or "uncertain", example; Santa Clause...

"evolved" = "change"... Change has "identity", the nature of the identity is form flux... validated, based on "physical" evidence...

"rock" = "solid matter"... Solid matter has "identity", the nature of the identity is physical... validated, based on physical "evidence"...

"billions" = "idea"... "Ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on number association to Reality...

"years" = "idea"... "Ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on associated celestial movement...

"(scoff)" = "emotion"... "emotions" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is "cognitive"... validated, based on personal experience...

Ken, do you see where every word you have used to make your strawman argument, actually has an "identity", that can be pointed to in reality, and validated...

Try that with the word "God"... I'd suggest it is an "idea", and yet, you'd likely suggest "not"... I'd suggest that your "idea" may have been transferred to another medium, like paper/book, yet, the identity of the word is now just a textual fingerprint of an "idea"...

I'd suggest that the Jews, believed that their "G-d" didn't have an "identity", because to give their G-d an identity, was to place oneself as an equal to a God... the symbol for their deity, was an "empty chair"...

Christianity, many years later "gave" the Jews' God an identity, using the word "Jesus", yet, that is just a word as well, a word without an "identity" beyond text... what is the nature of the word "Jesus", it's an "idea", and the "idea" has an identity, but an "idea" is not "evidence" of the past...

Ken: "Where you there? How do you 'know'?"

Perfect example of your strawman argument... you have placed me in your self-created argument as though I actually believe I was born of a "rock" a billion years ago... How presumptuous...

Ken: "So you maybe promote an imaginary 'big bang'? How laughable. Where you there? Where is your 'evidence' of such a foolish claim?!"

Again, you have invoked your strawman, I have not suggested I promote anything of the sort...

Ken: "You probably belive all the matter in the entire universe was compacted into an infintisimal dot no bigger than the period on this page (after all thats the drivel you were indoctrinated with in your youth)."

Again, a strawman, you don't know me or my educational background, yet you throw me into your lame argument...

Ken: "Where you there? Did you see it? Can you PROVE it?"

More Ken strawmen, statements...

Ken: "You are fools with no evidence and fail at your own game of 'who knows best.'"

You lose; I don't "have" to play your game of "create a cosmology theory", because "you" failed to give an "identity" to the word "God" that can be validated...

Hope you understand, that "I" don't "have" to answer the question; Where did the Universe come from? Because, you "think" I should... again, that's your mental mistake, not mine...

By the way, you can't ask valid questions, without every word in the question being assigned a unique identity...

Ken: "Oh, yes, I could indeed play your game and scoff right back at you."

You could scoff at the fact you need oxygen to live, that doesn't remove the fact you need oxygen...

Ken: "You take the easy, but deceitful, position and try to get others to play by the rules you impose."

You mean the position that propositions need not be entertained until all variables/words are given a proper identity, so that the "possibility" of a "valid" conclusion can be drawn as a result?

I seek "understanding", not the social exchange of meaningless rhetoric... However, if you enjoy such entertainment, ensure you find others who share your same objective... you'll only "irritate" those who seek understanding and wisdom.

Ken said...

Dave8 God has an identity. He had His before He gave you yours. Yet the pot says to the potter 'you're not real!'

Yes, I read of God - but I also met Him ( I can't see the wind nor where it blows but i feel its force)and He has done wonderful things before my eyes and in my life. I know Him and better yet am known of Him.

Jesus is the Son of God (no, I am not a Trinitarian and Yes, I do keep the 4th commandment on not working the 7th day Sabbath) Jesus also has an identity ("before Abraham was- I am")

Did you know that Jesus was seen resurrected by many people including a group of 500 brethren at once! Such a cloud of eyewitnesses to an event on channel two and you would belive what they said- but since its the bible you won't. Funny, no fiorst century writings EVER contradicted that Jesus existed or the gospel stories.

Is there historical and scientific proof of Jesus?

It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.

If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.

Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.

Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

I do not have too much time to spend here so I will be brief as I can while stating my case in each post.

Ken said...

to Jim Arvo - I will match biblical science against your antibiblical science only if you will admit that your view is a religious one too. You can't call your belief science and mine religion - an atheist view is a religious one just as much as a Christian view. My God is great and mighty and your god is ... you. In all seriousness- we could post stuff back and forth but why? You won't budge and neither will I- we both see the same evidence and facts but interpret them differently ... because the argument is indeed a religious one.

Have a beer and go read some of the arguments posted here and on other sites - try an opposing site for fun.


1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Ken said...

To WebMaster and all: ANSWER TO THE WEBMASTERS RIDDLE

Any Christian 'worth his salt' knows that learning in 'her a little there a little' - that any 'proof' texts must be harmonized with the whole of scripture.

MATTHEW 5:42& Luke 6:30—Should believers literally give anything to anyone who asks?

PROBLEM: Here Jesus 'clearly' said, “Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away”. But, if we took this literally we would have nothing to provide for our own families. Also, Paul says that those who do not provide for their own families are worse than infidels ( 1 Tim. 5:8 ).

SOLUTION: A text out of its context is a pretext. We must understand the context in which Jesus said “give to him who asks you.” First of all, as we know from other things Jesus said and did, this does not mean to give to people what will harm them. A Jesus said, no good father would give a serpent to his child (Matt. 7:10).(I believe you asked someone else for that verse)

Furthermore, it does not mean give to those who can work, but refuse to. Paul said emphatically, “If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat” ( 2 Thes. 3:10 ).

Finally, the whole context of Jesus’ statements here are to reaffirm the spirit of the law which He came to magnify (Matt. 5:17–18 ), as opposed to what they “heard” (Matt.5:21, 27, 33, 38, 43)—what had been said by oral tradition and misinterpretation ( Matt. 15:3–6 ). Here Jesus is explicitly addressing the legalistic misinterpretation of the OT that says take revenge on your enemy with “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (Matt. 5:38 ). By contrast Jesus says, don’t retaliate against your enemy. Love him, and give to help him (v. 44 ). But Jesus no more expected His listeners to take, without qualification, the command to “give to him who asks you” than He intended them to literally cut off their hands and pluck out their eyes if they offended them (v 29–30 )!

Tip for atheists: Leave the scripture interopretation and exposition to the Saints - its theirs anyway.

WM No, I won't give you ten bucks ... BECAUSEI know and obey my Savior Jesus and my Father in heaven.

I will give you TEN commandments from them: Exodus 20:1-17 God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. You shall labor six days, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which Yahweh your God gives you. "You shall not murder. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."

Christians/Believers- make note of this explanation and consider the casting of pearls when spending time here.

All- thank you for the time and your indulgence of my posts.

Love in Christ, Ken

.:webmaster:. said...

Ken,

First of all, you follow a cult. You are a heretic, because you deny the Trinity. Since you are not a real Christian, but only a deceived cultist, your interpretation must be full of holes, right?

Now, it seems certain that your interpretation is off by a large margin. I'll reprint the complete context of your walking zombie's supposed command. Be sure to read EVERY word, not just the scattered words that agree with your cult's teachings.

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Clearly your flying, un-dead, human-god with a male sex organ commanded you to not resist evil, give more away at court than required, and when stolen from or compelled to do something, then to give away or do even more.

Let me ask you something. You say you must "compare scripture to scripture," right? That's interesting. Where in the Bible does it that say that? And why would anyone need to quote Paul to interpret the teachings supposedly quoted from the very mouth of the incarnate God? Besides, Paul doesn't say to NOT give to everyone who asks, does he. And my request for a measly ten dollars is very reasonable. Your coat likely cost more than $10.

Sorry, Ken. But you are at best a disobedient servant who will receive many stripes, or at worst a hellbound cultist.

In any event, you only THINK you are a "True Christian™."

And implying that I am a swine isn't very loving, you heretic you.

Jim Arvo said...

Ken said "Did you know that Jesus was seen resurrected by many people including a group of 500 brethren at once!"

Please tell me the name of one of these observers. What, exactly, did they see? Your evidence for these "500 brethren" consists of one sentence in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. (1 Corinthians 15:6, to be precise.) We do not know how Paul came to possess this information, or what kind of "appearance" he had in mind. Was it purely spiritual, as in his case? More troubling yet, none of the gospel writers refers to this amazing fact, raising the possibility that it is a late interpolation.

Your comments about the historical accuracy of the Bible are off base. Neither the age of a document nor the number of copies is a basis for judging its historical accuracy. The *intent* of the document, along with its provenance and the reliability of its authors is the key. Using these criteria, the gospels in particular are exceedingly poor historical documents as they were 1) written in a hagiographic form (i.e. as a means to INSTILL BELIEF, not record history), 2) by written anonymously, and 3) redacted by unknown authors an unknown number of times, thus destroying any semblance of provenance.

The Josephus passage shows numerous signs of being a late interpolation. The Tacitus passage is also suspect. You should know these things if you're going to tout them as evidence for Jesus.

Ken then said "...I will match biblical science against your antibiblical science only if you will admit that your view is a religious one too."

First, science is not "antibiblical". Science seeks objective answers, no matter where they lead. If the answers happen to contradict somebody's religious beliefs, then so be it. If it supports them, then so be it. Facts lead where they lead.

Second, being an atheist, I hold no religious views. I hold no beliefs in invisible beings of any description. The only conscious entities I am aware of are biological. I endorse no "holy book". I subscribe to no doctrine that purports to be the "word of god". I take absolutely no doctrine or belief to be beyond question. So, no, I do not accept your label. Does that mean you are now unwilling to discuss science?

I have a suggestion. Why not concentrate on presenting *your* views rather than trying to tell me what I believe, or forcing me to wear a label. I will do the same. Do we have a deal?

Ken: "...we could post stuff back and forth but why? You won't budge and neither will I-"

Please speak only for yourself. You have absolutely no idea what evidence I will accept, and what conclusions I will reach. By the way, when you say that you will not budge, you are in effect saying that you will hold your beliefs despite any conceivable evidence that comes your way. Do you agree with that? If not, please clarify.

Ken: "...try an opposing site for fun."

The majority of my reading is from opposing views. I study all sides and seek the BEST arguments I can find, whether or not I initially agree with the conclusions. I think that's being prudent. Don't you? Can you name a few books you've read that are critical of Christianity?

stronger now said...

(munching....munching...swallows popcorn takes a drink)

O.k...well...Ken, your last name wouldn't be Ham, would it?

Jesus said you have to hate your family to serve him right? So, why worry about havuig enough to take care of them?

Dave8 said...

Ken: "John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Ken, do you understand what the words above actually suggest? The character John, says that Jesus couldn't tell which way the wind blew, even though one could "hear" the effects/whistling... and uses the metaphor to further suggest, that The Spirit (figuratively speaking), can't be "found", but only understood by the "effects"...

You see Ken; this is a "prime" example, of not being able to "assign" an "identity" to something...

Beyond John portraying Jesus as inept in his ability to "know" which way the wind blows (because, even a little mortal like myself "knows" which way the wind blows), this passage cites the "inability" for someone to "assign" an "identity" to the word "Spirit"... that, the best that can be done is to "look" at effects, and accept the proposition...

The analogy is poor, because wind does have a source and can be traced, as well; we can control wind, harness energy as a result of knowing wind patterns, etc., etc... wind is gaseous molecular movement, the word "wind" is made of physical components that can be isolated and studied.

On the other hand, "spirit"... it is suggested can only be known by "effects"... now, granted there is much debate on what can be "known" by studying "effects" in Nature and promoting theories, etc., such as black holes etc., but all data collected that does not "conflict" with the theory, is what "makes" the theory solid...

I have no problem, looking at effects and attempting to create a theory... and it appears the bible is suggesting that you shouldn't either, by this metaphor, "you" pulled out...

So, Ken, do tell... which "effects" in a persons' behavior, suggest they have a "spirit" dwelling within them...

Moreover, think about why such behaviors/effects would be "unique" to True Christians who have the "spirit" with them; and "not" like the "effects" or "behaviors" of someone who doesn't have the "spirit", like... me for instance...

I suggest there is no effects/behaviors that are "unique" to a True Christian that can be used to create a unique "identity" to the term "True Christian"...

If you read your passage again, a loophole was created to suggest that no one can really tell when the "spirit" dwelleth and when it doesn't... it comes and goes without notice... so, "spirit" has no "identity", except "effects"... and you are not going to be able to proffer a "unique" behavioral "effect", unique to the term "True Christian"... at least, "not" by behavioral effect...

What makes a "True Christian", thus, is totally based on one's volitional affirmation of a God proposition; without "understanding" the "meaning" or "identity" of the word "God"...

Thus, a True Christian is one who affirms a "belief", hoping that the proposition they were given by "another person" is going to be true - some day.

The problem with that Ken, at least for me, is that if "I" can't "know" of it today, then it would be dishonest to "say" or "affirm", that I "do" know something today... I lack belief; or more technically... I do not volitionally affirm the God proposition as given by Christianity... you do.

I do not "affirm" propositions that have words that lack identity or contextual meaning... thus, I currently "lack" belief/blind acceptance of all such propositions. And, notice I used the word “all” propositions of such make-up, not just the one you are currently promoting... on the other hand; you have no problem “affirming” a proposition, with words that have no identity, but isolate your acceptance to just “one” proposition, while denying the validity of “all” other such propositions…

Ken said...

You all speak in ignorance of that which you do not know. Your mental gymnastics only serve to puff up your own egos. But that is why you are here.

Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll. Its true not many wise are called but only to make their follishness more evident.(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)

You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data.

Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/

WM, you can't label me a heretic because I belong to God and He will judge me. You studied it - you know the Trinity was adopted well after the apostles time. You must realize that not everything you've heard about Christianity or the things they practice are true. The things you unbelieving professors taught you was not all true. If you said the Catholic Church was a cult and didn't follow the bible I would agree with you. Jesus said the road to life was narrow and FEW find it. (would this be bad or wrong of God? How many spermatazoa get the egg and how many die forever?)

Stronger now- thanks for the compliment but no, I am not Ken Ham. His website answeresingenesis is good though. Also try Kent Hovind www.drdino.com.

Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ? The carnal mind is enmity against God. You more than like hold less hostility for budha or zoroaster or Anton leVey - if you are honest you may find why.

Folks,Look inside yourselves. Do you really think this brief life is all their is? Many of you claim to be ex-Christians - then there is little more to say. You have chosen your way. You have chosen death. You read and decided to listen to your own finite mind from your brief existence on this orb.

There is nothing you have done that God won't forgive - you do not need to distance yourself from Him. Go to Him ask for forgiveness and be reconciled to Him. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants all to come to eternal life.

Like I said, I do not have time to spend philosopy-fencing with you all (due to my ministry, family & work)but I will invite you to my website truthontheweb.org if you want the truth - sorry in advance though - the site will disappoint you - no philosphy is there - just bible exposition.

I know you will post and blast me when I leave but I will probably not be back due to time contraints. Thanks again for indulging me what little time you did. Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual.

Thanks again. Have a reflective day. - Ken

Jim Arvo said...

Ken graced us with the following: "You all speak in ignorance of that which you do not know. Your mental gymnastics only serve to puff up your own egos. But that is why you are here."

Ken, you are extremely rude. Why is it that you cannot simply focus on making whatever point you wish to make, or better yet, answering some of the questions that have been put to you? Why must you attack?

Ken: "Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll."

I challenge you to back that up. What responses, SPECIFICALLY, are you talking about? What evidence of deceit do you have? Please show some integrity by making your charges clear and by backing them up.

Ken: "(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)"

If you don't mind, I'll assess what you have to say based on the substance of what you say--not on your boasting. I invite you to do the same. Fair enough?

Ken: "You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data."

Instead of asserting that I have some secret motive, which you have no way of knowing, I challenge you to respond to my questions directly. Can you tell me something about those "500 brethren"? Anything at all? Have you read any books that are critical of Christianity? Can you cite any of the reasons that have been put forth for doubting the existence of a historical Jesus? Can you name some of the evidence that suggests the Testimonium Flavium is at least partly a late interpolation? These can be addressed calmly and rationally, can they not?

Ken: "Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/"

You conflate mundane historical facts with corroboraing accounts. That the Bible makes reference to many people and places that actually existed is not in dispute. It was written within a historical context, so it is infused with information from the time. The question is whether its fantastic claims are accurate. For them there is ZERO corroboration. Furthermore, the majority of the motifs are strikingly similar to those of older (mythical!) beliefs. Can you offer any historical corroboration for ANY element of the Jesus story?

Ken: "Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ?"

I have no hostility toward Jesus whatsoever. I think he's a laudable figure for the most part. Some of the teachings attributed to him are exemplary. I suggest you stop projecting your own unsavory assumptions onto people. It really makes it look as though you cannot support your own position.

Ken: "I know you will post and blast me when I leave but I will probably not be back due to time contraints."

Somehow I doubt that your departure is due solely to time constraints, but whatever the reason... It's been mildly interesting. If you ever care to have a civil discussion about the historicity of Jesus, or the accuracy of the Bible, I'll happily oblige. I'm not too keen on swapping insults, however.

Ken: "Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual."

Again, you level insults rather than address anything substantive. Why not simply defend (or even define!) your own position? It's easy to level insults--not so easy to do the research, think things through, and state your case cogently. (I hope you already knew that.)

stronger now said...

Oh well, looks like Ken got a case of the NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU's, and ran off. I'm out of popcorn anyway.

If your still reading Ken, it doesn't do you any good to say you have a high IQ. I could say the same thing and mine would always be bigger. Even if you actually did have a huge IQ it wouldn't matter 'cause a big IQ is like a big penis, if you don't know how to use it properly it's still an embarassment.

boomSLANG said...

Ken: You all speak in ignorance of that which you do not know. Your mental gymnastics only serve to puff up your own egos. But that is why you are here.

Interestingly, you and your big intelligence quotient seem to be stymied by the "mental gymnastics", as evidenced by your failure to address/answer anything put to you.

Now, about these "500 brethren"("witnesses")---we know more about the eyewitnesses in the Book of Mormon than we do the "500" alleged "Yahweh" witnesses. Mind you, the Mormon witnesses were people who actually signed their names to attest to the fact that an angel had shown them the golden plates from which Joseph Smith, Jr.(the founder of Mormonism) translated the Book of Mormon, and, that they had heard God's voice testifying that the book had been translated by the power of God.

The point is, with all this detailed information, why do you casually dismiss it, and instead, believe much more vague, much less detailed accountings? Is it because there were allegedly so many?...i.e.."500"? Okay then, why not believe the thousands of eyewitness accounts of people who've seen Bigfoot? Could it possibly be because belief in big-footed domestic apes won't get you a post-mortem life of eternal bliss in the clouds? Hmmmm?

Ken: Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll.

There's nothing to "practice" for, handsome. If someone says, "the Great Pumpkin exists!....praise the Great Squash Patch in the sky!!!"..I don't need to "practice" my response, nor do I need to "plaigarize" my response from another skeptic. My answer is simple: Where is the evidence????

BTW..'got any for your biblegod?

Ken: Its true not many wise are called but only to make their follishness more evident.(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)

Well that certainly sheds a little bit of a different light on things, doesn't it? Pardon our follishness...I feel like such an egghead.

Ken: You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data.

No, as already pointed out to you---accepting historical data is one thing; accepting mystical magical mish-mash is quite another.

Ken: Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/

"Visit" this.

Ken to Webmaster: You must realize that not everything you've heard about Christianity or the things they practice are true.

I'm sure he "realizes" it, and of course, this could include the things that Ken might "practice", and what we've "heard about Christianity" from Ken. Ahhh, the irony.

Ken: If you said the Catholic Church was a cult and didn't follow the bible I would agree with you.

Well of course...those "other people" aren't "True Christians".

Since none of the THOUSANDS of Christian denominations can offer convincing evidence that they have the One True interpretation, let's flip a coin, shall we?

Jesus said the road to life was narrow and FEW find it.

Many people said MANY things. Nonetheless, "life" isn't a destination---it's a journey.

Ken: Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ?

It appears your question got cut off for some reason. You're missing the "ianity" on the last word.

I'm hostile towards it because it's an abhorant out-dated belief-system that is generally good for nothing but causing division among humankind, and empowering a good portion of the world's biggest bigots. Most Christians who are kind, compassionate, and peaceful, etc.. would be kind, compassionate, and peaceful without their holy hand book. We do NOT get morality from biblegod.

Ken: Folks, Look inside yourselves. Do you really think this brief life is all their is?

Yes, which in turn, makes every minute of it even more special. But you cannot see that, because your focus is getting into the "next life". 'Got greed?

Ken: Many of you claim to be ex-Christians - then there is little more to say. You have chosen your way. You have chosen death.

What an absurd statement. Okay, firstly, you are the one who is apparently focused on "DEATH"(on avoiding it)Secondly, objective reality won't be altered simple because we "choose" to alter it. It's not quite that simple, simpleton.

Ken: You read and decided to listen to your own finite mind from your brief existence on this orb

And you "decided" to listen to your "finite mind" when you dismissed the Great Allah. Do you feel like you're missing out on something? No, you say? Well, I don't either.

Ken There is nothing you have done that God won't forgive - you do not need to distance yourself from Him. Go to Him ask for forgiveness and be reconciled to Him.

Get the corncobs out of your ears, and listen good---if a "God" exists, then quite to the contrary---he/she/it is doing the "distancing". Your malfunction is apparently because you assume that because we didn't get an answer from "God", that it must be because we didn't ask. What an arrogant ass-umption. Nonetheless, "God" is presumably omnipresent; I am only in one place at once. Right? Right. "God" is presumably timeless; I am temporal. Right? Right. Thus, "God" has had, and still has, endless time to make it's existence known, and should be able to do so effortlessly...just like he allegedly did to the "500". My time is limited, on the other hand. After all, "God" is in our very midst right this second, right? Right. So please don't hand me that "God" wants me to have "faith" shit, m'kay? Thanks.

He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants all to come to eternal life.

You appear to be saying that God will be forced to do something that God doesn't really want to do.(i.e.."kill the wicked") Hmmm, that doesn't sound like "omnipotence" to me--that sounds like a being who is helpless against evil. Okay, why would I worship a wuss, even if bible god existed? I should worship something just to avoid eternal torture? Is that a great reason to believe something?..because you're afraid not to?

Ken closes with: Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual.

Listen to this "logic":

One cannot understand the bible because one needs to be "spiritual" in order to do so. Yet, one can evidentally not be "spiritual" until they read the bible.

Now, who's the pillar of intelligence who came up with this initiation? LMAO!

Enjoy your delusion, Ken(I know you'll be back for a peek).

itdoesntevenmatter said...

wow, what a bunch of bobble heads, on both sides. what a waste of web space this whole site is!!! I cannot PROVE that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I have faith it will, simply stated, I believe it will, that is all faith is, a belief. One side here has faith in an eternal God as creator and he who begat a Messiah the other simply has faith in thier own selves. We are all making choices and we are each educated enough here to know what our choices mean. Even if I was a "True Christian" I would't give you $10. Your scriptures are way out of context, simply discovered using reading comprehension, and you are doing the same thing most man-made religions do, use scripture to suit themselves and their own needs, emotional or otherwise. It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided.
Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!! That is really what prompted me to even post here.
Sorry if I'm invading your space to be rude or whatever. Get out of your basements and use those minds to do something for the world if you sre so convinced it is up to us as humans.

Dave8 said...

http://www.truthontheweb.org/about.htm

Ken's web page: "Church Affiliation: Truth On The Web Ministries is an organ..."

Which one?

Ken's web page: "Intent and Purpose: ...Also to issue a witness and a warning to the churches about times to come."

Yeah, Ken's "organ" is the "True Church", thus, only "True Christians" go, to his True Church, all other "Christians" are lost, and are obviously not able to read the bible as well as Ken is... albeit, his biblical knowledge is sorely lacking, as seen on this thread...

Ken: "Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll."

Uh, well reasoned thought, brings many to the same conclusions... just because you don't seem to engage in "reasoning" at a level that would challenge your "belief", doesn't reduce them to the religious "drone", such as an evangelist... two plus two equals four, I suppose you have a problem with everyone who comes up with the "exact" same "logical" answer, continuously...

You find that "boring" it appears, and so, seek to creatively offer "different" answers... great, enjoy your recreation of reality in you mind... it doesn't change the Truth of the Objective Reality in which you life...

Ken: "Its true not many wise are called..."

Therefore, some are called...

Ken: "...but only to make their follishness more evident."

Therefore, some who are called only make their foolishness more evident.

Ken: "(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)"

Therefore, you are one of the "some" that suggests they have been called, and with such a high-IQ, in order to make your foolishness more evident...

But, aside from your prideful boasting at having "formed" the True "Church", while holding a self-acclaimed "high-IQ fool" title, you have not given an "identity" to the word God, other, than it being a three letter word...

I suppose it should go unsaid, that your "Church of God", is really a "church of _____" since a word without an identity, is a word that can mean "anything"...

A word that can mean "anything" is; a word that means "nothing", objectively speaking, because it is "arbitrary"...

So, it would be more correct if your church were named; "Church of Arbitrariness"... where you can tell everyone; "come in, worship what you want, define the bible based on your mood-swings and desires, it can be anything you want it to be,.."

Ken's web page: "Our salvation is by grace of God alone through the atoning sacrifice of our Lord, Christ Jesus."

Great, therefore, everyone can arbitrarily suggest that they are saved, since a blood-debt/murder was made on my behalf... All atheists are free and clear of any guilt, or debt... thus, really no need to go any further in researching the bible, etc.

Ken's web page: "Take care to prove all things for yourself."

Ken: "The carnal mind is enmity against God."

The "carnal mind" is "required" to seek, "proof" for statements... yet; you suggest the "carnal mind" is an enmity against "God"...

For those, who don't care to read your deceitful, half-truth, lies... let me break this down...

You want to "appear" as if you are being "genuine" in your effort to assist others in their "effort" to "prove" the Truth of God... but, you attack the very tool that is required to "prove" anything - the mind... by suggesting the mind is "enmity" towards God...

Enmity: "a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism."

Ken: "You all speak in ignorance of that which you do not know. Your mental gymnastics only serve to puff up your own egos. But that is why you are here."

No, Ken, the "reason" I am "here" as you put it, isn't because of my "ignorance"... it's because I refuse to accept "your" deceit/ignorance... I refuse, to "shut down" my "carnal mind", because a "carnal mind" is required to "understand" proof/evidence...

You will "lure" people to your site, baiting them with the promise of assisting them in the search for "proof", and when you "fail" them, because you can't give an "identity" to a "word" that is at the "root" of your belief system, they will call you on your lie/deceit/inability to assist... upon which time, you will call them "deceived", puffed-up, and a few other choice words to cover your buttocks...

You say you have a high IQ, but your actions say different... you came to this web site, titled, "ex-Christian", and attempted to use a "con" that has likely been a key factor in many leaving the fold... that speaks volumes about your ability to think critically, or with your "carnal mind"...

To end, your inability to assign an "identity" to the word God, is "proof" that you have no "ability" to help others in such a quest...

boomSLANG said...

idem: what a waste of web space this whole site is!!!

That's your opinion. Let me ask you, though---besides that, do you have anything of substance to offer?..perhaps something that doesn't contribute to this "waste"? Let's take a look...

idem: wow, what a bunch of bobble heads, on both sides.

Hmmm. Ad hominem attack. Nope, nothing of substance there.

idem: I cannot PROVE that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I have faith it will, simply stated, I believe it will, that is all faith is, a belief.

Wow...'seems like a strikingly familiar Christian analogy, coming from someone who insults "both sides". In any event, no, you cannot "PROVE" the sun will come up tomorrow. Notwithstanding, here's two things you might want to consider:

1) Whether the sun will come up tomorrow, or not, is not in dispute. There are no websites disputing that issue.

2) If it was in dispute, and the sun came up tomorrow, well, you'd then have all the evidence you'd need to be able say, "see, the sun came up!". Therefore, if you have the evidence, you do NOT need the "faith", even though you retain the belief that the sun will come up. Your attempt at equating "belief" with "faith", and your implicit attempt at equating Atheism with "faith", utterly fails---at least, with that analogy. 'Got anything better?...'anything of substance?

idem: One side here has faith in an eternal God as creator and he who begat a Messiah the other simply has faith in thier own selves

Again, you assert a false dichotomy. The opposite of "belief in a creator" is NO BELIEF in a "creator". Believing in "yourself" is something anyone can do, Theist, or non-Theist.

idem: Your[interpretation of] scriptures are way out of context, simply discovered using reading comprehension, and you are doing the same thing most man-made religions do, use scripture to suit themselves and their own needs, emotional or otherwise.

Why are you unecessarily making the distinction, "man-made religion"??? All religions are man-made. The Christian belief is rooted in "Divine revelation", per the Holy Bible. Said book is the number one source for biblegod's alleged "Word". Christians follow Christian doctrine. Period. Christianity is a religion. True, Christians claim to have a relationship with biblegod... however, if it wasn't for the bible, they wouldn't know who the hell they weren't talking to, or weren't seeing, during their courtship with "Jesus". 'Follow?

Now, as far non-Christians quoting scripture, in this case, "give to those who ask"...it is to prove a point---that being, that the bible is one big subjective grabbag. Christians pick and choose which parts to adhere to, and which parts to toss out. Interestingly, the parts they toss out and/or don't follow, are almost always the parts that they claim are taken "out of context". Ironic?

idem: It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided.

It's silly to follow something so grotesquely misguided. Honestly, do you "hate" your parents? Do you throw rocks at people who earn a living on Sunday? Or wait...am I taking these things "out of context"?

idem: Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!!

Wait, didn't you just call him a "bobblehead" ten minutes ago?..i.e.."both sides"? (hi Ken!)lol

idem: Get out of your basements and use those minds to do something for the world if you [are] so convinced it is up to us as humans.

Well, I don't see any "gods" helping the third-world countries, helping the poor in this country, or much of anything else, except being the subject of war.

Dave8 said...

itdoesntevenmatter: "Sorry if I'm invading your space to be rude or whatever."

No worries, you obviously have something important to say...

itdoesntevenmatter: "wow, what a bunch of bobble heads, on both sides. what a waste of web space this whole site is!!!"

Quite an admission, or is that a self-admonition... since you are posting on this site as well...

itdoesntevenmatter: "Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!! That is really what prompted me to even post here."

Actually, no, what really prompted you to post on this site, is seen by what you "posted"...

One single line about IQ, and the rest was about how this site is wasted space (to include you), the ones posting are bobble heads (to include you), and to seek other endeavors (except for you), obviously, in the hope that Christianity will not get exposed for the fraud it is...

So, 91+% of what "prompted" you, was "not" regarding High IQ... unless, you were having an "out-of-body" experience... more likely, you were deliberately trying to bump the last few posts up the thread, so that Ken wasn't sitting with his virtual buttocks in his virtual hands. There is another personality that makes the same lame attempt to bump posts, perhaps you know them.

itdoesntevenmatter: "I cannot PROVE that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I have faith it will, simply stated, I believe it will, that is all faith is, a belief."

I have lost "trust" in the IQ system, if you have an IQ over 90...

I don't have "faith" the sun will rise tomorrow, I have "confidence" the sun will rise tomorrow... "If", I choose to be "lazy" and not "gather evidence"...

Now, if I were not "lazy" and wanted "evidence", that the sun will "rise" tomorrow... I could walk outside on my back porch, and look at the night sky, and see the sunlight refract off the moon's surface, illuminating moon dust and producing a white halo effect around the natural satellite...

So, instead of being ignorant about what "proof" is, or isn't, take your hypothetical High IQ, and go read a book...

If you want to be "intelligent", then say... no one can "prove" the past or the future... to include the "bible"... but that does not rule out the present...

In the present, the Christianized word "God" has "zero" identity; that means, in the present tense, there is 100% incontrovertible proof that a person can't "know", "find", "rationally seek", "understand", anything related to that word...

In the present, I know what the "sun" is, it has a specific and unique nature; star... therefore, I can seek it out, I can find it, I can "know" when I've found it... I can see the effects it makes based on physical evidence... this, can be "known"...

itdoesntevenmatter: "One side here has faith in an eternal God as creator and he who begat a Messiah the other simply has faith in thier own selves."

Wrong. Your IQ must be getting in the way...

Faith: "1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."

Faith in a cosmological creator is based on belief, which aligns with the "2" definition; belief, "not" based on "proof"...

As far as "my" having "faith" in myself, "I" have "evidence", it's called "me", as well, I don't have "confidence" or "trust" in my existence... I am "Absolutely Certain" I exist, as an axiomatic truth...

So, don't "confuse" yourself, and others based on your ignorance of the term...

itdoesntevenmatter: "We are all making choices and we are each educated enough here to know what our choices mean."

Uh, I "lack" confidence in "your" education... if what you have shown so far is anything reflective of your intellectual "aptitude"...

itdoesntevenmatter: "Even if I was a "True Christian" I would't give you $10."

You can't even define the term "True Christian", but yes, you can decide to do whatever you want, even be a total Christian hypocrite if it makes you happy... Just, don't mind us if we take the time to "point out" your hypocrisy...

itdoesntevenmatter: "Your scriptures are way out of context,..."

As opposed to "what other" scriptures... which of the hundred plus, versions of the Christian bible are you reading from?

itdoesntevenmatter: "...simply discovered using reading comprehension,..."

Being literate and having reading comprehension skills does in fact, help up to "discover" and "know" what words, sentences, passages, entire books, and even canons - mean... There is "no other" way to "discover" the meaning of words, it "requires" the active carnal "mind"...

itdoesntevenmatter: "...and you are doing the same thing most man-made religions do, use scripture to suit themselves and their own needs, emotional or otherwise."

If you are suggesting that the bible is an "interpretive" piece of literature... okay. Of course, that means, the bible is really meaningless... when something can mean anything; it means nothing... its arbitrary...

For those who believe that the bible gives "specific" guidance; they can proffer an explanation for what it means to "give" when one "asks"...

itdoesntevenmatter: "It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided."

I know, the bible is totally misguided... for instance, what does someone have to do to be "saved"...

Saved by "words" alone:
Matthew 12:37 - "For by thy words thou shalt be justified."

Do the right things:
John 5:29 - "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life."

Psalm 62:12 - "For you render to each one according to his works."

Jeremiah 17:10 - "I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Believe the right things:
Romans 3:28 - "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Romans 5:1 - "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Galatians 2:16 - "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

Do and believe the right things:
James 2:17 - "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Believe in Jesus:
John 3:16 - "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Be born again:
John 3:3 - "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Hear the words of Jesus and believe in whoever sent him:
John 5:24 - "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."

Be born of water and the spirit:
John 3:5 - "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Be washed by the Holy Ghost:
Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Be converted and become like a little child:
Matthew 18:3 - "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Believe and be baptized:
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Call upon the name of the Lord:
Acts 2:21 - "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead:
Romans 10:9 - "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Follow the commandments (at least some of them):
Matthew 19:17-19 - "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Revelation 22:14 - "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life."

Keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus:
Revelation 14:12 - "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Endure to the end:
Matthew 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13 - "He that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Wait until you die and then get baptized:
1 Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Don't judge other people:
Matthew 7:1, Lk.6:37 - "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."

Have lots of babies:
1 Timothy 2:14-15 - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing."

Don't defile yourself with women. (Be a virgin male.):
Revelation 14:3-4 - "...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

Be given by the Father and come to the Son:
John 6:37 - "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees:
Matthew 5:20 - "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Eat Jesus' body and blood:
John 6:53-54 - "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Just ask:
Matthew 7:7-8 - "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

All you need is love:
1 John 4:7 - "Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God."

Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Be chosen (predestinated) by God:
Matthew 22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Be poor, not rich:
Matthew 19:23-24 - "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24 - "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."

James 5:1 - "Ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you."

Keep the commandments (at least some of them), give all your money to the poor, and follow Jesus:
Luke 18:18-22 - "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ... Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
...thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

itdoesntevenmatter: "It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided."

Yeah, you have no idea...

Jim Arvo said...

BoomSLANG asked "itdoesntevenmatter" the rhetorical question "do you have anything of substance to offer?", and then proceeded to answer that question in the negative. Thanks, Boom, you saved me the trouble.

By the way, itdoesntevenmatter, there's little point in using the word "faith" as a synonym for "belief". It makes a perfectly useful word redundant, it's counter to common usage, and it makes phrases such as "belief on faith" indecipherable. Normally "faith" implies belief that is not overtly supported by fact or reason, which makes your sunrise analogy inappropriate.

Bobble heads, eh? I can think of two on this thread.

Anonymous said...

The only real truth is this moment right now. the rest is speculation. -JER

zefiriel said...

I suspect that most true Christians are actually out there, feeding the poor and all, as Jesus commanded them to.

I hope I do not need to provide you with a Bible verse to prove that Jesus did command such a thing, for if you have been a Christian before, you would know where it is.

So, since most of the true Christians are out there doing God's work, you're left with the rest of us fake Christians to surf the net, stumble upon websites such as yours, and to entertain you all.

So, don't expect too much from us fake Christians. We can barely keep the 613 commandments, so I believe you would not expect us to be able to send you 10 bucks.

And yeah, sometimes I do think that if Paul and the Church wanted to preach about God's grace and forgiveness of sin through Christ, they could've at least removed Jesus' sayings in the gospel that demanded His disciples to obey the commandments.

It makes fake Christians like me look bad.

Ugh.

Susan said...

Dave,
I know what you say is true. My daughter and I became the victim's of a crime and I went to God in prayer for help to remove ourselves from an unsafe area. (Still trying) Well in prayer God urged me to ask, so I kept asking, until I realized He was guiding me to ask of His people. Well I went to every denomination and over 1000 churches nationwide for help. They all said the same thing, "We do not give to individuals." Non profits said no, we can only give to other non profits. So these churches and non profits steal money from the people but will give nothing back.
Why? fear. They do not have Faith that God is the source of their supply, but man is. Jesus was telling us over and over again about not being attached to our money. Money is a tool used to aquire a physical need. In fact on my asking journey I find that the Religous are the most fearful of all.
The Constitution does not say a church can only operate if it is incorporated, in fact to incorporate means to sign a contract with the Government and give up certain rights for the privelege of operating as a church and recieving money.
I am a Minister and have a Constitutional Church online that is dedicated to Real Truth, and I care not if I pay a tax or recieve no funds, that is not our reason for being.

But I do agree with you, there are few if any true Christic followers on Earth today. As to the person who gave to you if it went to a charity, that just shows that they feel you personally are unworthy of touching the money as if the money is sacred. They are showing they are still attached to the physical money and not in their faith to God. What does it matter if you recieve it, I thought only God did the Judging? I I would gladly send you ten dollars, and when I have some I shall. For it is only money and God is our supply and you can never out give God. I for one have seen first hand that my faith is in God and not in humans, and I will recieve and it will fall out of the sky because humans clutch with fear their pieces of paper.
Sure they throw it at disaster victims ,well to the non entity non profits that dole it out in trickle down economic fashion, never to real human people. So why not give to someone in your neighbor hood? Are you more worthy of God then others? And is your money your real God?

Chris Marlow said...

After reading all the comments and considering all views it cannot be ignored that the majority (if not all) of the offensive, profane and just plain rude comments have come from the atheists or non christians, whilst at the same time the majority (if not all) of the fair and just and understanding comments have come from the Christians. So surely the message 'choosing to show another human undeserved kindness in the face of injustice' is one worth noting. And again it's a choice, nobody forces anything upon anyone but surely if the choice the atheists take is to spout criticism and profane words and curse those who are merely trying to share their feelings, then using your own 'logic' isn't it best to choose the understanding, kind and loving path. For Atheists and non christians alike turn to logic for the answers to questions every single one of us asks ourselves, why, how, etc. But not everything can be explained by logic or thought and reason. Feelings cannot be explained, love is something you feel in your heart and soul, you cannot touch it but you know it is there, in everyone, and i think everyone believes it deep down. And that may be the problem some people have with God, he is buried so deep down inside some people because of the materialistic, greedy, exploitive, ego-tistic world we live in that some just cannot feel him anymore, just like some ignore the love inside them. The media, politicians, elitists and capatilists, priests who claim they can forgive and lay down laws in the word of religion are the ones brainwashing us, they are the ones we should be rebelling against. It is true that some priests and clergymen are corrupt tooo and lead us dwon the wrong path claiming they have the divine power to forgive in the way of religion, but true forgiveness and love is in each one of us to choose to give not in the word of a self righteous man. True Christians give love and understanding without wanting anything back, we just want peace and unity and someday a place without money or control or greed. And that has got to be something worth having all your faith in. It is true you must have faith in yourself too, but if you have faith in only yourself and nothing else then it is truly a sad lonely world with no hope. It is a different journey for each one of us and my personal journey has gone through everything from atheism, nihilism, new age, spiritualism and finally the truth and love in christianity, all the time searching for something my heart and soul is reaching out for in all the wrong places. the only place i have felt love and kindness back is with Jesus Christ and other true christains who are true friends. I'm not saying your search will have the same outcome as mine but believe me i once believed with all my stubborness and demand for answers that atheism was the truth, it wasnt the answer and as i matured and life swept me and god guided me i came across many different roads all leading to the same place. I hope in my heart of hearts to see you all there someday in love and kindness, as friends.

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris,

First: Please learn to use paragraph breaks. No one is going to bother reading a huge block of non-stop text.

Second: May I please have $10.00?

Thanks.

stronger now said...

Boohoo! The profanity, the unfairness boohoo! Why oh why can't everyone behave as I think they should, Oh boo hoo!

Fuck off chris. This isn't a site for you. We tend to think in a different way.

Astreja said...

Chris Marlow: ""...the majority (if not all) of the fair and just and understanding comments have come from the Christians."

Yes, "You're a worthless sinner!" and "You'd better hope Hell doesn't exist!" and "You are of the Devil" and "Fool!" are *so* very fair and just and understanding. Stick around a while, and you'll see that such comments can be found in the vast majority of the Christian visitors' posts.

"isn't it best to choose the understanding, kind and loving path"

Under normal circumstances, yes. However, these are not normal circumstances. This is a support site for people who have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness as a direct result of their involvement with Christianity. If you come on here and attempt to tell us we got it wrong, we didn't try hard enough, or some such rot, you *will* have someone swear at you. Possible Me.

"Feelings cannot be explained, love is something you feel in your heart and soul..."

Feelings are adequately explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges. And the soul has not been proven to exist.

"True Christians give love and understanding without wanting anything back, we just want peace and unity and someday a place without money or control or greed."

Please make up your mind, Chris. Want or not-want?

End of critique. That'll be $10, please, payable to our Webmaster.

Chris Marlow said...

.:webmaster:. said...
Chris,

First: Please learn to use paragraph breaks. No one is going to bother reading a huge block of non-stop text.

Chris:(You did).

stronger now said...
Boohoo! The profanity, the unfairness boohoo! Why oh why can't everyone behave as I think they should, Oh boo hoo!

Fuck off chris. This isn't a site for you. We tend to think in a different way.

Chris:(My point about the unneccesary offensive language. It is not a case of behaving as i think you should, it is a case of how sad it is that you think you should behave like that yourself, but thats life, and like i said- it's your choice)

Astreja said...
Chris Marlow: ""...the majority (if not all) of the fair and just and understanding comments have come from the Christians."

Yes, "You're a worthless sinner!" and "You'd better hope Hell doesn't exist!" and "You are of the Devil" and "Fool!" are *so* very fair and just and understanding. Stick around a while, and you'll see that such comments can be found in the vast majority of the Christian visitors' posts.

"isn't it best to choose the understanding, kind and loving path"

Under normal circumstances, yes. However, these are not normal circumstances. This is a support site for people who have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness as a direct result of their involvement with Christianity. If you come on here and attempt to tell us we got it wrong, we didn't try hard enough, or some such rot, you *will* have someone swear at you. Possible Me.

"Feelings cannot be explained, love is something you feel in your heart and soul..."

Feelings are adequately explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges. And the soul has not been proven to exist.

"True Christians give love and understanding without wanting anything back, we just want peace and unity and someday a place without money or control or greed."

Please make up your mind, Chris. Want or not-want?

End of critique. That'll be $10, please, payable to our Webmaster.

Chris:(We are all sinners, but none of us are worthless, and it's not a case of hoping hell doesn't exist, it's a case of hoping heaven does exist, you have that hope inside you. It is true we all have a little of the devil in us- we have the capacity to do bad, but we are born of Gods love and believing in that love we all have inside of us will over come everything, and that includes all your derogatory comments. I hear what your saying in that some people calling themselves christians come onto your site preaching you'll go to hell etc, and unfortunately they give us all a bad name.

I'm sorry that you and others on here have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness but it won't be from a direct involvement with Jesus or God, i can only imagine it's from some form of Christianity or chuch proffessing to be that. I'm not here to tell you that you've got it wrong, i've been in that place of pain and i knew it wan't my fault so whose the easiest person to blame - god. I'm only giving the other side of the arguement without which your site wouldn't exist, the difference being i would never feel the need to curse at you despite being told to f**k off by one of your posters.

It is true that some things can be explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges but it does not adequately explain everything, it doesn't expalin this feeling of warmth and love i have inside me. As for the soul it is something which needs to be nurtured, it is a spiritual thing which unfortunately is buried beneath a physical world, if we feel souless we are empty, lonely, hurt, angry, bitter - all feelings i have picked up from you on this site, did you all just have a sudden hormone surge? Like i said feelings cannot be adeqautely explained by brain or hormone. A lot of people fill up this emptyness with other things- money, beer, drugs, women all of which i have done in the past, but it is only when filled with love, faith, and belief that you will fell whole and happy.

As for want and not want. Perhaps i worded it wrong, i meant in the act of giving we don't expect anything back, we want to share love with everyone beacuse when you have something good you want to share it. In an ideal world we would have unity and peace and love but in this world controlled by physiavl chains it is hard to find.

Lastly, $10? It is not the act of giving money that is important, money itself is debt, debt to the bankers, so why would i give you something that will chain you to a banker? It is the act of giving itself that is important here. Money is something that binds us and holds us down, but giving is free, there are many ways to give to someone in need, the best and most important of which is giving love, which i send to you.

.:webmaster:. said...

Chris,

Your zombie man-god commands you to give to all who ask. That's why you should give. Didn't you even bother to read the article?

Now, may I pretty-please have $10.00?

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and Chris: It costs money to run a website, so actually I have given you something material in the form of allowing you to freely post your comments. You, in turn, have given nothing back but empty platitudes.

stronger now said...

Chris,

Why is it "sad" that someone uses "colorfull metaphors" in their speech?

"...i would never feel the need to curse at you..."

Curse? That wasn't a curse? A curse is something like...

"May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits".

Now THAT'S a curse.

Jebus did ask for you to give, so give. Then fuck off.

Susan said...

Chris,
There is no hell but what we create by our choices on earth. Heaven is not a place but a state of being which we are to bring to earth by the choices we make in consciousness.

I know I have been there. Money is not anything but a tool we use as a medium of exchange for goods. I do however find it amazing that we can give someone a piece of paper and get things that are bigger.
Worth is what we believe something is. We are all worthy and if we are all sinners then so is Jesus.
Jesus said we can do everything he did and more. then why do we not yet walk on water, change water into wine, or heal the sick or raise the dead? If we did we would be called devils.
But Jesus made us equal to him, he showed us what we really are, beings of spirit not earth.
We need our physical bodies to transcend but they too will transcend when we transform them into light as he did.
Yes, Jesus told us to give, not to demand and be selfish. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So if we treat others poorly it is how we wish to be treated. Equally it does not mean that if we are treated bad we should do likewise.
Our character is in our control. How we act dictates our character, how someone reacts dictates theirs.
Giving was told of us so we would realize that the only attachment we needed was with Spirit. Spirit is our only supply, "work not for the meat that perisheth."
Giving isn't just about money, and love can never be given it is within us to be love. But money is the thing most people fall on when it comes to releasing something. There seems to be a universal fear of sharing actual paper money.
Why? We are in an emergency situation, in my lifetime I have given so much money and even time including my time as a firefighter, where I gave 110%. Yet now is this hour of need I have reached out for help and the very ones i would expect to help me have slammed the door in my face.
I am not angry, just sad, for them. They said no to an opportunity to give to God. As the kingdom of God is within and the Spirit of God dwells within us, then to everyone you give, you give to God. "Whatsoever you do to the least of these, so you do unto me." There is so much in what he taught that so many don't get as his true meaning have been corrupted by institutionalized religion.
Yes, it is better to give in a state of love because giving in fear is still not faith. Maybe instead of harping on pain or misfortune we use the old adage, "necessity is the mother of invention"
If all of us in need joined together to help one another I believe we would accomplish more. I do no longer give to any church or any charity, as they freely take our money, but fear to give any back when we have a need.
We can always choose our direction, and thus except the path we have chosen and not blame another for our mishaps.

www.freewebs.com/spiritwomyn

Astreja said...

Chris: "We are all sinners..."

'Sin' is a religious concept, not an actual entity.


"it's a case of hoping heaven does exist, you have that hope inside you."

No, I don't. I have no interest in 'heaven'. None at all. I don't want to live forever.

"It is true that some things can be explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges but it does not adequately explain everything, it doesn't explain this feeling of warmth and love i have inside me."

I've had those feelings too, Chris. If science can explain it, I'm okay with that.

"As for the soul... it is a spiritual thing which unfortunately is buried beneath a physical world."

Unsupported assertion.

"As for want and not want. Perhaps i worded it wrong, i meant in the act of giving we don't expect anything back, we want to share love with everyone beacuse when you have something good you want to share it."

Okay, fair enough. But I feel these things, too, and don't believe in your god.

Love is good, though. No quarrel there.

.:webmaster:. said...

I'm still waiting for the $10. I mean, this Jesus supposedly said to give to everyone who asks. Then he goes on to talk about physical things like coats and cloaks, and even doing things you might not want to do, under compulsion, and giving more than required!

I'm just asking for ten bucks. It's fascinating what hoops Christians go through to justify disobeying the plain, obvious commands of their leader.

Nope, true Christianity is to hard on the wallet, I guess. As long as these man-god-commands can be transformed into freely acquired fluffy feelings, then everything is fine. But as soon as someone test the waters and asks for a nominal, tangible, real item...

Once again, I'm asking every Christian who reads this for $10. Please use the PayPal button in the upper part of the right-hand column.

Thanks.

David said...

wm,

How many Christians have actually given $10 to you?

Justice2387 said...

Hello Webmaster,

I hope all is going well.

You said "God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian".

God does bless good but he does not bless evil. He allows evil to happened because he gave us the free will to do what we want. He did not create us in a cage and train us to do good and not evil. We have the freedom to do what we want and wish. However, he DOES NOT BLESS evil. I have read the verses that you quoted and none of them imply that God bless evil. He said that we give whoever asks us and the person that takes from us is responsible with what he does with the money or the cloth or whatever. We are not responsible for other people's actions, neither is God responsible for the evil actions of the people--because it is the people's free will. Please explain to me where you got that God blesses evil.

With regards to the $10 dollars, can you please provide me with an alternative method to get the money to you or the website other than paypal? like and account number or an address that I can send a check to?

I believe either way you are a winner and that is very smart of you. If people do not pay you money, you appear as a winner because you have proven your point. If you people do you pay you, you have gotten Christians to support a cause that might not agree with their views.

One last comment and I apologize for the long message. I know many people who are true Christians and you might not believe me but the most famous to the West might be Mother Teresa. She gave her life to serving people and giving to people who have asked for her help. She did not turn people away. She died serving others and denying her own self in order to help those in need. Please explain to me why Mother Teresa might not be a true Christian in your eye.

Waiting for your answer
Thank you

.:webmaster:. said...

Hi David,

Since posting this article in 2002, less than ten individuals identifying themselves as Christians have donated $10 each. (I believe the exact number of Christian donations is six, but I can't be sure without more research, and I don't think it's worth the time.) One of the Christian contributors was a relative of mine very soon after I came out as having left Christianity.

Justice, your Jesus is quoted as saying, "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." -- Luke 6:35.

And, HE supposedly said, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" -- Matt 5:44

Those are the quotes I made, but I was quoting things ascribed to your man-god. In the future, when you use quotation marks, you might want to quote the person verbatim rather than paraphrasing. There is nowhere in this article that I stated what you have quoted me as saying.

Oh, and PayPal or the Amazon donation box is the only way honor my request for ten dollars.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and on Mother Teresa. CLICK HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE.

I leave it to others to judge her "True Christianity™."

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

Justice2387: God does bless good but he does not bless evil. He allows evil to happened because he gave us the free will to do what we want. He did not create us in a cage and train us to do good and not evil. We have the freedom to do what we want and wish.[bold added]

'Don't mind if I do......

Okay, the above-quoted raises an interesting question:

Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?

If we take the above-quoted at face value, it would seem that "a", what we, the "created", want and wish is more important, since this alleged "God" presumably puts our own wants and wishes(and thus, our "freewill") ahead of it's very own will. But yet, when we listen to theists unceasingly minister to us about this very same "God" and it's desires for us, it would seem quite to the contrary.

Look, obviously, no sane person would "want", and/or "wish", to be mercilessly incinerated in perpetuity, if they in fact honestly believed that this could happen to them. Um, duh? So, if this "free" f%cking "will" is so central to biblegod's desires, why is our "freewill" influenced one way, or the other? Why have a system of reward and punishment(torture), if "freewill" is so important??? It's contradictory, and makes even less sense considering biblgod's "omniscience"(imagine that)

In any event, would any theist like to put it into terms that make even a little bit of sense? Listening

SEO said...

justice2387 said…He [God] allows evil to happened because he gave us the free will to do what we want. He did not create us in a cage and train us to do good and not evil. We have the freedom to do what we want and wish.

Me: O.K. it’s one thing that we have a freedom to run amok. So we can choose to be evil. Fine. What is not fine is that it seems that when someone partakes in evil, the evil that is inflicted tends to fall upon the shoulders of the innocent.

Seems to me, that the pedophile’s freedom to commit child abuse really outweighs the child freedom of remaining unmolested. The child/rape victim has no choice.

A benevolent god would protect the innocent from the snarky intension of the evildoer.

justice2387 said...

To Webmaster: Thank you for your comment. I was quoting you from your original post. In the paragraph where you started out by saying "I do not expect to receive even one donation..." In that paragraph you said "God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian." That is the quote I am referring to. Also, I believe you just got an additional $10. Congratulations.

To Boomslang: Thank you for replying. You said "Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?".

When I love someone and know the sacrifices they made for me or their own love for me, I would want to do many things that makes them happy and pleases them. However, each person shows their love in different ways. For example, if you love your husband or wife and truly love them, if it comes down to it, you are willing to sacrifice things you have or even your life if needed to satisfy their needs or make them happy. The same with God. If there is a Christian who fears God, he will probably not follow him as much as a Christian who love God. If I love God, I would want to do what makes him happy because I LOVE HIM not because I am scared of hell.

You said: Look, obviously, no sane person would "want", and/or "wish", to be mercilessly incinerated in perpetuity, if they in fact honestly believed that this could happen to them. Um, duh? So, if this "free" f%cking "will" is so central to biblegod's desires, why is our "freewill" influenced one way, or the other? Why have a system of reward and punishment(torture), if "freewill" is so important???

I am going to explain this to you the way I understand and the way I have been taught to understand it. If you take a shower and go outside when it is really cold, you will get sick (most of the time). You have the free will of doing what you want (going out right after taking a shower). You have that free will but with that freedom comes consequences. I will catch a cold. I had the choice and I chose.

Listen, I am not nor will I ever be in a position to tell you who is going to heaven and who is going to hell because God is more merciful and more loving that any human being that ever walked this earth. And every person has good qualities and bad qualities and while people choose to look at the bad to judge each other, God looks at the good. Another example that I can give you is punishment for crime. Do you believe that a person who has for example killed 10 people be allowed to live as everyone else? At least for the protection of others, he is isolated from the community.

See most people see this religion as a relationship of fear--the tyrant (God) and the helpless (humans). I can tell you that if Christianity (as faith) was based on fear, it would have never survived that long. People do more for love than fear.

justice2387 said...

To Seo: Thank you so much for your comment. I have seriously asked that question more than once before. You said:

"O.K. it’s one thing that we have a freedom to run amok. So we can choose to be evil. Fine. What is not fine is that it seems that when someone partakes in evil, the evil that is inflicted tends to fall upon the shoulders of the innocent."

It seems that the person who commented before you (boomslang) prefers the idea of free will. Okay to reply to your comment, a person who is sexually molested whether a child or an older person probably felt something that I can never imagine or even begin to describe. No one deserves something like that ever. And I also understand that the notion of these molesters being punished does not change the fact of what they have done. However, some people do find justice in the punishment of those who have done them wrong.

However, other people feel that nothing could be done to erase what was done to them. God gave us the free will to do what we want, good as well as evil. However, he does not turn his back on those who ask him for help. He might help them or "make it up to them" in different ways. For example, if you know the story of Joseph in the old testament whose brothers sold him and told their father that he was dead. Joseph was innocent and his brothers were the evil doers. However, after many years, he became what is equivalent to present day prime minister in Egypt. It turned out that he became greater than any of his brothers. He actually saved them and they owed their lives to him.

I understand that this might not really answer to your comment. But there is something that I began to feel throughout my life and that is the idea that there is a balance to things in life. Taking the total, God does not give to one person more than he gives to another. For example, you might find a rich person that is unhappy in his live and a poor person that finds happiness in simple ordinary things. If a person was sexually molested as a child, he might one day become one of the leaders in raising awareness about the solutions and prevention of child molestation and might save many children from future crimes.

A final comment: Just like there is so much evil in the world, there is also much good. If people believe in the good and spread the good, then evil will not find a place. Even though we do not see it because we probably don't know about it, God does protect many from evil and harm.

.:webmaster:. said...

"God gave us the free will to do what we want, good as well as evil. However, he does not turn his back on those who ask him for help."

Except if we don't choose correctly, he'll toss us into an everlasting torture chamber bereft of the opportunity for reformation or parole. Eternal life in God's loving prison of horror for using "free will."

Makes about as much sense as giving to all who ask.

BTW, may I have the ten spot now? Still waiting for you to obey your imaginary friend.

.:webmaster:. said...

"People do more for love than fear."

If Christianity included no threat of horrific everlasting torture, how many do you suppose would be Christian? If Christianity said, "God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you, but if you choose not to have a relationship with him, it's OK, because he is the epitome of love and would never take jealous revenge on you for exercising the free will He gave you," I think you'd have considerably fewer mega churches.

"God does bless good but he does not bless evil."


Yes, you're right. I did write that, and didn't remember. I suppose I simply should have re-quoted the Bible there: "Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."

Somehow in my mind I equated blessings with kindness. Perhaps I should have equated blessings with rewards? And if God doesn't bless evil people, how the hell does anyone get saved? Aren't we all supposedly evil?

Whatever.

SEO said...

I going pitch a fit and cuss and swear.

That’s so nice that your god would reach out to all the evildoers once they repent and all.

But here's my problem, out of the 8 close friends I had in high school, 4 were molested; furthermore, so was my cousin (me mum’s sister daughter). I shall tell her story.

My cousin rode that little yellow bus that would come through her neighborhood every Sunday from the time she was 6 years old. And, boy, did she know that Jesus loved her. Why? Because the Bible told her so.

So at 10 years of age, when she finally got fed being the punching bag of the family she prayed. She prayed because God loved her, and Jesus loved her, and her Sunday school teacher told her that God would help you if you were in need and were sincere. She prayed. She prayed that her mother would stop smacking her, and her dad would quit verbally taking his rage out on her and her brother would stop diddling with her. She prayed a lot and often. She begged but to no avail. The abuse kept coming and she was desperate.

So, since God didn’t see fit to help her, my cousin, in her desperation prayed to Satan.

She was 10 years old, kneeling in her backyard, behind the garage where the family kept the dog. She was kneeling in dog shit. Begging Satan to stop the abuse because as her church told her: “The devil awaitin’ for ya. Always awaitin.’ He’d do anything for a soul."

The abuse didn’t stop. So, at 10 years of age, she knew: there is no god. And she remains an atheist to this day. She in her mid-30s.

So once again, it’s so nice that your god would reach out to all the evildoers once they repent and all.

But maybe, your god in between curing bunions, stopping toothaches, finding car keys, and forgiving pedophiles, he could throw down a cock block before a 10-year old is kneeling in dog shit praying to Satan.

Your god is an asshole.

David said...

"If Christianity included no threat of horrific everlasting torture, how many do you suppose would be Christian?"

I think the number would be fewer but it would still have many followers. Like it or not most people NEED to feel like there is more to life than what we see. And as a "philosophy" Christianity works for me. Love thy neighbor, give to those in need. It works. Even the Dali Lama (not sure about spelling there) said that Christianity works if EVERYBODY follows the rules.

I do have a hard time reconciling the "non-believers" go to hell forever part. It doesn't sit well at all with me. I feel sick whenever I think about it. I can't explain or understand how it's fair and right and I have not heard any explaination that satisfies me either.

boomSLANG said...

Justice 2387 is back with:

Thank you for replying. You[boomSLANG] said[asked] "Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?".[bold added]

Justice responds to my simple and direct question with:

"When I love someone and know the sacrifices they made for me or their own love for me, I would want to do many things that makes them happy and pleases them. However, each person shows their love in different ways. For example, if you love your husband or wife and truly love them, if it comes down to it, you are willing to sacrifice things you have or even your life if needed to satisfy their needs or make them happy. The same with God. If there is a Christian who fears God, he will probably not follow him as much as a Christian who love God. If I love God, I would want to do what makes him happy because I LOVE HIM not because I am scared of hell.

Forgive me, but was that an "a"?..or a "b"?

Waiting.

David said...

boomslang,

I checked out your blogger page. Does your band have a name or a website?

boomSLANG said...

David: I do have a hard time reconciling the "non-believers" go to hell forever part.

But yet, you must reconcile that part in order to be a True Christian™. Keeping that concept in mind---you must reconcile that entire groups of human beings will presumably be mercilessly incinerated, simply due to their geographical location on the earth. 'Sound ridiculous? Yes? Well, that's because it is ridiculous, and if you're a critically thinking human being, it should be a "red flag"; a wake-up call, that Christianity is nothing more than propaganda made by primative man in a primative time.

David: I checked out your blogger page. Does your band have a name or a website?

Yes, of course we have a name...and yes, we have a unofficial Myspace site, as well as the official site. Since I know where this is likely going, let me just say that the official site has a forum, one where I frequently debated fans in the religious/spiritual discussion section. What I found was that the fans would become indignant because of my brutal honesty on the subject of theology. As you can imagine, that created a conflict of interest, which is why I blog under an alias, and why I do not disclose the band's identity.

When it comes to music related inquiry, the fans expect and deserve nothing less than honesty, yet, for some reason, the Christian fans would expect me to "tip-toe" around them because of who I am. 'Not gonna happen.

David said...

"But yet, you must reconcile that part in order to be a True Christian™. Keeping that concept in mind---you must reconcile that entire groups of human beings will presumably be mercilessly incinerated, simply due to their geographical location on the earth. 'Sound ridiculous? Yes? Well, that's because it is ridiculous, and if you're a critically thinking human being, it should be a "red flag"; a wake-up call, that Christianity is nothing more than propaganda made by primative man in a primative time."

I don't think it is "thinking critically" to call something ridiculous just because you don't understand it fully. There is a lot about Christianity I don't like, a lot I don't understand, and a lot that needs to be changed. But I am not going to just throw away all my beliefs because I don't understand one aspect of it. I also will not blindly believe anything someone with a cross or a computer tells me.

BTW,

The idea of an internationally known band that is popular and that no one is allowed to know about is really cool. I am the CFO of a well known oil company that is known internationally, but I can't tell you which one. I also have invented the hybrid car and sold the design to a major car company. That is also a secret.

Susan said...

ve money to each other and helped each other get on our feet? Would some evil thing happen? We give money to non profits that rarely actually give to any human person, yet we fear giving to one another.
Who decides who is worthy to recive? I have given to my community as a firefighter, put my life on the line for others with no reward financially. I have served with the Sheriff's office on their Victim response team and have gotten up at all hours to serve others. Yet when we were vicitmized by a crimanal, there is no one there to help us. When I ask for help I am rejected by all including supposed Christians. I do not get welfare or food stamps, my daughter gets medicaid because of seizures. We have gone without our own home and a car for over two years. Am I not worthy of help?
I died when I was 17 and was dead for over 30 minutes, I saw no hell, there was no judgment only unconditional love and a great and enormous peace.
On earth everyone is greedy and selfish and fearful that someone may get some good.
There is so much stuff yet ask for help and everyone acts as if it is the worst thing. They say if someone asks on my behalf, then maybe. But jesus said "ask and ye shall recieve." Obviously he was not talking about humans.
They tell me they will pray for me, in other words we will not be God's hands and feet and feed his sheep. I feel like the man in the good samaritan story, still lying on the side of the road hoping someone still cares.

Just a clue, but you will not need your things there, you will have no body to use them. So is it so terrible to give to another? We through mopney at the Katrina victims, but helping just one human seems beyond us.

As for me I will not claim a label such as Christianity, unless I walk the talk all the time. And I have. I met a women with dreadlocks and a baby, she needed $150 to get a car to go to work. I gave it to her, why because she needed it and I had it and God put her in my way and gave me the opportunity to pass the good he gave to me on to her, knowing he would repay me. Money is just paper we put a value on, yet we value the lives around us not at all. Save the planet, give money. Save the animals, give money, stop abortion, give money, support our cause, give money. Help each other, hell no.

justice2387 said...

To Webmaster: you said
"Makes about as much sense as giving to all who ask.

BTW, may I have the ten spot now? Still waiting for you to obey your imaginary friend".

My Reply: I gave you the 10 dollars. I paid it at about 11:30pm yesterday (Monday November 5, 2007). That is why I said congratulations!

.:webmaster:. said...

Thanks, J#s!

I missed the email stating I'd received your donation.

May I have another $10?

justice2387 said...

Webmaster you said: "Yes, you're right. I did write that, and didn't remember. I suppose I simply should have re-quoted the Bible there: "Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Somehow in my mind I equated blessings with kindness. Perhaps I should have equated blessings with rewards?

Whatever."

My response: The verse the you quoted about loving your enemies. Do you believe that loving my enemy is the same as blessing them? I love and I am willing to forgive them. If they are in a tight spot I would help them. I don't kill my enemy because of hate. I forgive them because of love. I DON'T BLESS their actions. If they are doing wrong, I don't bless their actions. I love them for their person for THEM. I should be kind to everyone that asks of me but that does not mean that I encourage what they are doing if it is wrong.

God is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Kindness is not that same as blessing. God is kind to all of humanity because he created it. He loves every one of us because he created us with His hands. But if we harm each other or do evil, God does not bless that.

You said: And if God doesn't bless evil people, how the hell does anyone get saved? Aren't we all supposedly evil?

People get saved because of God's kindness. If God blessed evil, wouldn't that mean that people who do evil will get more in return and not want to leave their ways? People get saved because of God's mercy and his kindness and love for mankind not because he is blessing their evil actions.

To you last questions (Aren't we all supposedly evil?) I do not think that is a logical notion. If you have ever seen a new born child and looked into his/her eyes, you would not see evil. You would see purity, innocence, simplicity. Everyone is born like that. As we make our decisions, we influence what we become. We can keep this innocence and purity or we can lose it. But we were created good and the best proof is a child's face!

boomSLANG said...

David: I don't think it is "thinking critically" to call something ridiculous just because you don't understand it fully.

I said if you think critically, it should be a "red flag". That means, at the very least, if it doesn't make sense at face-value, then you should examine it a little closer, which, it appears you already did... since you said:

I do have a hard time reconciling the "non-believers" go to hell forever part.

In the future, please don't misconstrue my words, okay? Thanks.

Let the record show that it is purely my opinion that being "guilty" by non-association is ridiculous. In my OPINION, it would seem that the creator of the entire universe could come up with a better "plan" than that...but of course, from a theist POV, "God" can do what "God" wants, and it doesn't have to make sense, because....well, because "God" is "God", right? 'Nothing circular about that, is there?

David: There is a lot about Christianity I don't like, a lot I don't understand, and a lot that needs to be changed.

Changed? But what about the axiom that "God's Word is UNchanging". It seems that you, like many Christians, seek to establish your own brand of Christianity, yes? Regardless, if "God's Word" is subject to change, then I'm not quite sure how or why we should consider it the "Universal/objective Truth" that it's adherents claim it to be in the first place. Please elaborate if you wish.

David: The idea of an internationally known band that is popular and that no one is allowed to know about is really cool. I am the CFO of a well known oil company that is known internationally, but I can't tell you which one. I also have invented the hybrid car and sold the design to a major car company. That is also a secret.

Well, pAiNt me red and call me the Devil!!!!!

But seriously, y'know what, Davey? I really don't give a flying fuck to perdition if you believe me, or not, m'kay? I'm not offering you the information with conditions attached; you are perfectly free to reject it. Although, I'm pretty sure you've taken far less credible things on "Faith", haven't you?... so, you might give that a try.

David said...

"Changed? But what about the axiom that "God's Word is UNchanging". It seems that you, like many Christians, seek to establish your own brand of Christianity, yes? Regardless, if "God's Word" is subject to change, then I'm not quite sure how or why we should consider it the "Universal/objective Truth" that it's adherents claim it to be in the first place. Please elaborate if you wish."

Since men have already added and removed text from the bible we must assume that His word has already changed, as it pertains to us here on Earth. I do not wish to change His Word, just to know what it Truly is. If a group of men back in 400 A.D. or their about removed text then they may have also re-written it. I do still read the bible, God can still speak to me through those scriptures. I do believe that God's Word is unchanging, but that does not mean that men haven't done some creative editing. I do not believe that the bible is without error, and admitting that is difficult.

And take it easy will ya? Don't get all upset. I was just bust balls about the band thing. I don't care who you are.

boomSLANG said...

David is back with: Since men have already added and removed text from the bible we must assume that His word has already changed..

This is remarkable. Okay, if "men" have "already added and removed text" from the "His Word" at the discretion of man, then how/why, logically, should we not believe that the bible is simply the word OF MAN? And what makes you so sure it wasn't the word of MEN in the first place?

After you attempt that, perhaps you'd like tell us how you reconcile that there are 33,000 some-odd denominations/sects of Christianity, none of which are in full agreement on the alleged essentials. That certainly doesn't sound like objective/Universal truth, to me.

David: as it[the bible] pertains to us here on Earth.

Um, exactly where ELSE would it "pertain" to "us"?

David: And take it easy will ya? Don't get all upset. I was just bust balls about the band thing. I don't care who you are.

I might take it easy; I might not. Know this---if you're going to call me a liar; if you're going to mock me, do it with balls...don't back-peddle...okay Christian?

Now, where again is your objective evidence that Christianity is a "God-inspired" Objective Universal Truth, and all other religions are false?

Waiting.

Sipen Gin said...

David, can I get your home phone number and street address? That is, unless you have something to hide.

David said...

Hey liar(boomslang)

I'll answer your major questions tomorrow. And I wasn't back-peddling, but if you want "more balls" (I'm not surprised by the way) then you got it.

Talk to you later, LIAR.

Dave

David said...

Sipen Gin,

My full name is in this thread somewhere and I'm in the book. If you want to spend the time and look it up then fine. We'll have a nice chat. Maybe we can meet up and have coffee. Who knows, maybe we'll REALLY hit it off and well....you know.

boomSLANG said...

The blogger profile argument for God's existence:

1) I think you're lying about the personal information given in your blogger profile.

2) Therefore, you must be lying.

3) Therefore, God exists.


Wow.

Sipen Gin said...

"My full name is in this thread somewhere and I'm in the book."

Not really forthcoming, but should anyone be surprised.

"If you want to spend the time and look it up then fine."

Typical evasion.

"We'll have a nice chat."

Wishful thinking.

"Maybe we can meet up and have coffee."

Sounds like a proposition.

"Who knows, maybe we'll REALLY hit it off and well....you know."

No, I really don't know. However, I'm quite sure you know what you "REALLY" seem to want to do - and you have no idea of my gender ;-)

.:webmaster:. said...

I think what we have here is a matter of semantics in regards to word definition. If you consider life, sunshine, love, etc., as mere kindnesses of your god, so be it. I've heard and read many Christians refer to these realities of life as blessings. To me you are segregating synonyms.

But like I said before: whatever. Have it your way.

Now your inference that we are not born with Original Sin, but born innocent and pure, is particularly interesting. The reason that is an interesting idea to me, is because it is antithetical to the orthodox Christian position in every major denomination. It's one of those cornerstone "truths" which hold up the whole "fallen man" scenario.

However, once again: whatever. It's all nonsense anyway.

David said...

boomSLANG said...

The blogger profile argument for God's existence:

1) I think you're lying about the personal information given in your blogger profile.

2) Therefore, you must be lying.

3) Therefore, God exists.


Wow.



Boom,

Are you serious? I don't think your lying, I don't care. I think your a freaking idiot for keeping your internationally renowned band anonymous. Whatever.

I don't have the objective evidence you want.

justice2387 said...

Webmaster you wrote: "Thanks, J#s!

I missed the email stating I'd received your donation.

May I have another $10?"

My response: I really apologize but I cannot give you another $10 for three reasons.

1) You original message that started this whole blog was asking only for $10.

2) I do not have the money to keep on giving you $10

3) I wanted to prove to you and I guess also to me that people giving you $10 is not going to change your point of view. It is not going to change what you believe in. Even if the whole world gave you $10 each you still would not believe that there might be true Christians out there.

However, before leaving this blog, I wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to become a part of this and see for myself what kinds of arguments and feels are revealed. I wish you the best truly with all my heart.

With love,
Justice2387

justice2387 said...

Hi Boomslang, to answer your question and I am sorry if this is more than an a or b answer:

You seem to see them in opposition so that we have to pick one or the other. I see them in harmony so my answer is both a AND b combined.

However, if you see them in opposition, then A would have to be my answer

I want to thank you for keeping up with me and my long answers that might seem very redundant. haha. I believe that I have to leave this blog or else I am going to fail all 15 units that I am taking this quarter because I don't have the time to study. I wish you all the best and I hope that you find the answer to your questions.

Thank you,

Justice2387

justice2387 said...

To Seo's comment:

I am really sorry about your cousin and I hope she is in a much better atmosphere now. I have two things to tell you before I leave this forum:

1) There are so many things that happen in life that we cannot explain. That we do not have an answer to. They seem evil and sad. I cannot give you an answer of why that happened to your cousin--maybe if someone from the church or from you family actually tried to fix the problem instead of just watching or talking about it; maybe it could have been solved it. And I wish I had the answers but I don't because we are human and we are limited in our abilities and thoughts.

My second point that I want to say is that for the past three years of my life I have had 4 people that I know die. Three of them in car accidents--they were my age (around 20). The fourth one is my aunt because of a lack in hospital care. of the three youth that died in my life, 2 were close to me. One of them was engaged to be married. She was driving her finance home and on her way back her car flipped and she flew out of the car landing on her head and she died instantly. Her mom had already been separated from her husband and now she lost her daughter. All she was left with was her other daughter. I do not know why this happened. And I often, like a child, wish to God that he would bring her back so that she would get married and live a happy life that we all dream about in our youth. But I know she will not come back and her family had made peace with it because they know that she is in heaven and is happy. She died the week of thanksgiving.

The other person that died a year before her was driving on the freeway back to school after celebrating Christmas with his family. It was in January of 2005 (since my church celebrated Christmas in January). He saw an accident that just happened on the freeway and it was raining very hard. He stopped and as he was running across the freeway to help the people in the accident a car did not see him soon enough because of the rain and it hit him. He stayed for one week at the hospital and then he died.

I always questioned why God would take the lives of those two people who were good people and tried to help those around them (The cause of the death of one of them). I mean it is not like they were evil and God wanted to take his revenge on them as some people in this blog might believe. I wish I could bring them back to their families and friends. But I can't. Life is full of hardships and pain and everyone feels that pain at least once in their lives.

I apologize for not having an answer for you. I wish I did so that I can ease your pain. I wish you and your cousin the very best. If you ever decide to go back to Christianity, please pray for me.

I will not be involved in this forum since I cannot get any of my work done ever since I discovered it.

Best regards,
Justice2387

.:webmaster:. said...

You might want to take a second look at that Original Sin doctrine you seem to have rejected. You're firmly in the heretical camp by alleging that all people are born innocent and therefore without sin. That's not "True Christianity™," which may explain your generosity.

Proving there are no true Christians is not really the point of this article, J#s. Getting ten dollars is not the point. The point is the discussion that was and still is being generated.

Now go get some work done so you can give ten whole dollars to the next person you run into who challenges your "True Christianity™."

boomSLANG said...

Dear David,

After careful consideration, I feel that, yes, when I get around to it, I will change my profile to simply say "musician/bassplayer".

As for keeping my band's website anonymous(to the blogger world), I feel it is no more "idiotic" than anyone one else who lists their profession/career/interests, etc, but who does not see fit to disclose a literal/physical address, or "link", to their place of business. Furthermore, your grilling me on the issue, along with your ad hominem approach, has me thinking that I'd rather lose out on a sale, than have a "fan" like you. However, I do appreciate your candidness on issue of not having evidence for your beliefs. Thanks....and I guess that's about it, right? Right.

Bye.

Anonymous said...

wow. Looks like the first post was in 2002. You guys are really angry. What are you accomplishing by going back and forth?

.:webmaster:. said...

Anony-bot,

You guys? Who are you addressing? And your reference to going back and forth: What exactly are you asking?

Chris said...

Jesus said: "Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn again and rend you."

You (webmaster) are the swine. The teaching to give to others is the pearl.

You trample the teachings of Christ under your foot and use it to harm God's people.

Yes, you have HARMED many people by behaving like a vampire.

If you reject the teachings of Christ you are already dammed, so I cannot do anything but say "Sorry".

Anonymous said...

Chris wrote:
Jesus said: "Do not cast your pearls before swine..

So what's wrong with "swine"?
I think they're kinda CUTE actually.

Even better, they never try to convert the world into believing in their fictitious god(s).


Porky Pig

.:webmaster:. said...

To Chris:

Thanks for providing confirmation of the point of this article.

And have a tremendous Thanksgiving!

Astreja said...

Chris: "You trample the teachings of Christ under your foot and use it to harm God's people."

Without an actual god, there are no "God's people" to be harmed... Just millions of individuals who have crippled their own mortal lives by uncritical belief in thoroughly disgusting religious fairy tales. The damage was done long, long before this website came into existence.

And teachings that can be 'trampled' by skeptics simply aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

May you be liberated from your addiction to the egotistical, brutal and thankfully imaginary god of the Bible.

Joe said...

Webmaster,

First, I would agree with you, if you would have said there is no perfect Christian. But you chose
to use “ true”. Why are you using true in the place of perfect? There are many true Christians, no
perfect ones just like you are not a perfect American. As an American, I am sure that you have
broken many rules. Have you run a red light lately? Have you cheated on taxes. Have you broken
any of America’s precious rules? Maybe you should be labeled as an untrue American! How does
that sound?

Second, I noticed that you have been preying on Christians for the last 5 years to try and prove
your point. Do you also slap them on the cheek so that they can turn the other? Do you secretly
wish to crucify them all? Why do you strike me as a bully? You should know exactly where
Jesus was coming from, if you were a Christian! My guess is that you never experienced “True”
Christianity. He definitely did not mean to give money to every con man that comes along. You
missed the point big time! My friend, believe me what I tell you. We will all be judged whether
Christian or anti-Christ. You may want to examine what Jesus said about offending the little
ones. You can read it in Matthew 18:6.


Third, What do you believe in? Do you believe in evolution? I would rather believe that I was
created by a God. I can’t believe that I evolved from some monkey! I rather worship a God! I
would rather believe that a God had something to do with my existence. Again let me refer you
to another scripture. James 1:5 . God gives wisdom liberally to those who ask.



May God Bless

Astreja said...

To Joe: "True Christian" is a term frequently used by Christians to attempt to rationalize the inconsistent presentation of their moribund religion. You yourself use a variation of TC argument in your own comments:

"You should know exactly where
Jesus was coming from, if you were a Christian! My guess is that you never experienced “True” Christianity. He definitely did not mean to give money to every con man that comes along.
"

See what I mean? You attempt to weasel out of paying ten bucks by pretending to read the mind of an imaginary Jewish god-man, asserting that your interpretation is more valid than the Webmaster's understanding.

"I would rather believe that I was
created by a God. I can’t believe that I evolved from some monkey! I rather worship a God! I would rather believe that a God had something to do with my existence.
"

What on earth for? The scientific evidence for primates having a common ancestor is rather compelling, should you ever decide to put away your superstitions and study the actual science for yourself. It's written right in our DNA, for crying out loud.

And I really don't see any particular advantage to being created by a god. Any god. Are you really so insecure in your own humanity that you need validation from an imaginary guy in the sky?

.:webmaster:. said...

Astreja sufficiently answered your questions, Joe. So I'll just add a little bit.

You said you would rather believe... Really? Well, I would rather live in reality. I choose reality, even if it is less romantic sounding.

What do I believe in? You'll have to explain your question to me. I do not believe in gods or goddesses, that's all. Evolution is irrelevant to the discussion. Let's suppose, for the sake of conversation, that evolution is a big pile of poo. So what? Creationism isn't automatically validated if evolution is false. Creationism would still need to be studied on it's own merit. It's not an either this or that proposition.

And besides, if your mythology does explain the genesis of man, your forefather is dirt.

May reason one day be part of your life.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, and Joe. I understand that those who don't worship Allah are threatened with a pretty nasty eternity, too. You better hope to heaven you picked the right religion. And, you better hope to hell you didn't pick the wrong version of the right religion. Heretics go to hell, too. Right?

redtail said...

It's always very telling to me when someone pulls the whole-"I didn't come from a monkey" line. All it tells me is that the person has NO CLUE what they are talking about and needs to go study up on the subject.

Not to be too rude, but I have come to the conclusion that a big part of being able to accept christianity and all it's mind bending mental gymnastics is just pure ignorance! You don't have to be dumb to be ignorant, christians! I know-I was.
Once you start to study and read you will ask yourselves how you could have been duped so easily.

Then, come on back.

Susan said...

Jesus was the only TRRUE Christian. How many of you can walk on water, change water into wine, heal the sick, raise the dead and transform your body into light and Ascend? Well he said you can do it and greater things, and until you do you are a Chrisitian wannabe.

Susan said...

Also if there are any chrisitians here can you help me raise money to get an RV so my daughter and I have a safe home? You can give money to a dealer or private party if you are uncomfortable with the thought of me touching your money.
Thank you

joe said...

Astreja, I am not trying to weasel out of anything. I am under no obligation to pay the webmaster
$10.00!
Reason #1..If you go back and read in Luke 6:30 and Matthew 5:40 It does not specify to give
money. It says to “ give to all that asks”. Give what? Do you agree that this giving could refer to
anything? It could be ones time, maybe some knowledge, maybe even the gift of healing. If you
refer to Acts 3:6 You will find that Peter had no money to give. He gave what he had and healed
the man.

Reason #2..Since the passage does not specify money, it would leave the door open for the
webmaster to ask for my wife or maybe even my children. Obviously, I am not open to that sort
of interpretation, to prove my Faith.

Reason 3.. My understanding of this passage is to help the poor and those in need. Sorry, I do not
believe that the webmaster is in need of my $10.00.

Insecure? Yes, I will admit it. That is one of the reasons I chose Christ as my Lord and Savior.


May God Bless

Astreja said...

Joe: Astreja, I am not trying to weasel out of anything.

I disagree. And to Me, the proof is the long list of excuses, uh, "reasons" that you so thoughtfully provided.

It says to “ give to all that asks”. Give what? Do you agree that this giving could refer to anything?

No. Again, I disagree. If you have what is asked for (and I assume that you do have access to $10.00), then that is what you give.

My understanding of this passage is to help the poor and those in need.

Not interested in your "understanding." Not in the least. It costs money to run this site, especially when so much of the bandwidth is used by unwelcome visitors such as yourself.

If you're going to come here and whine and yap at us about "Jesus" this and "Jesus" that, the very least you can do is pay your own way. Web servers don't grow on trees.

That goes for the rest of you well-meaning intruders. Put up or shut up.

stronger now said...

Answers to Joe's weaseling reasons:

#1 Even though that passage doesn't specify money, it doesn't negate giving monitarily. Right? And if someone were to ask for healing would you give them your underwear, or would you give them what they asked for?

#2 Yes, the passage doesn't specify you give only money, but it doesn't negate giving of your wife or children either. You seem to love your family more than you wish to follow jesus. (luke 14:26)

#3 Astreja took care of this one. Your understanding is not what you should be directed by as a christian. Right?

Give the money and be glad webmaster isn't in need of a wife.

joe said...

To Astreja,

Why are you so upset? You are losing touch with reality! You should try and correct that
problem!

First, I did not know that I was unwelcome. I did not see anything forbidding Christians from
this site. In fact, the very first article is asking Christians to prove their faith. Now you want to
fuss at me for defending the Faith. Is this your site?

Second, You say that you are not interested in my understanding of the passage. You’re the one
that jumped in on the conversation! You must have been interested, because my mail was
originally directed to webmaster! Maybe you should try and correct that habit also.

Ok, enough said, I still love you.




May God Bless

.:webmaster:. said...

Joe wrote, "Reason #1..If you go back and read in Luke 6:30 and Matthew 5:40 It does not specify to give money. It says to “ give to all that asks”. Give what? Do you agree that this giving could refer to
anything?"


Hmm, let's see. It says, "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

In other words, give MORE than is asked of you.

If you want to disobey your invisible, immaterial, mythological man-god, who only lives and exists in your imagination and nowhere in reality, that's entirely up to you. However, the command of this storybook character named Yeshua is clear: Give generously to all who ask, and I'm only asking for ten bucks.

Initially I wasn't going to respond to you at all, Joe, because your question has been answered numerous times in the comments above. Astreja's response was especially concise and clear. And in typical self-appointed-defender-of-majick style, you didn't attempt to answer the points Astreja presented, in stead you rudely made personal insults concluding it with an empty "I love you."

Thank you Joe. Thank you for confirming by your actions and your disobedience that there are no true Christians.

Well, you aren't one.

joe said...

Webmaster:

Ok, here we go again. You take the position that there is no true Christian and there is no God. An
atheist at heart ! This is not a logical position to hold.

Man must live by some type of moral laws. We must have some absolute truths somewhere.
Without these truths we could not function as a society. The 10 Commandments were laws to
benefit society, not to destroy it. Now my question to you is. Where do you get your truths? Is it
from society? Then you would have to adapt to the rules of the area you live in. Is it from your
conscience? How do you know if that can be trusted? Basically, you have no right to determine
what is wrong or right. You are positioning yourself to be the God.

After reading your article that was posted 6-20-02, I noticed that you made reference to a God.
And what God may this be? Is it the same one that you and your audience make fun of? Seems
that he was still on your mind when the article was written. My guess is that you are not a true
atheist. Or, should I say? A perfect one!

Webmaster writes:
“It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be
I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true
Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM. “


May God Bless

Astreja said...

Joe: Why are you so upset? You are losing touch with reality! You should try and correct that problem!

Uh, you're the one who believes in an invisible guy in the sky. Pot, meet kettle. *clang*

Is this your site?

No, but I do support it financially.

Ok, enough said, I still love you.

I, on the other hand, am starting to rather dislike you. (dispatches elite squadron of Wallet-Disappearing Faeries to Joe's locale)

And, regarding your comment to the Webmaster on morality:

Man must live by some type of moral laws. We must have some absolute truths somewhere.

False. Absolute truths are not required in order to have social order. All we need is observations based on real-life experiences.

An example: "Hmm, if I kill John Doe and take his cattle, his brother will probably kill me in revenge. I remember what happened to Fred when he tried to do something like that."

See how simple it is? No gods required.

.:webmaster:. said...

Joe,

I would say that human beings need some sort of moral understandings that are generally considered universal maxims so as to maintain a safe and orderly society. A cursory examination of history reveals that experimentation in these areas by society and the resultant societal evolution is what has brought us where we are today. For instance, for thousands of years, NO ONE condemned slavery. Even Bible-god sanctioned slavery. Even Paul, the self-appointed leader of Christianity, sanctioned slavery. Yet I'll bet that you think slavery is a sin, right? Well, I have no problem calling slavery a sin against humanity. Yet, somehow, your invisible all-seeing-eye god, puts His blessing on slavery time after time, according to your collected book of Jewish mythology.

Now, while all this discussion is very interesting, you still have failed to obey your master and extend to me ten measly dollars. You are full of hinted threats of everlasting torment doled out in a bizarre torture chamber created for those that piss on your god, but when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, it appears there is no substance behind your religious fervor outside of empty words.

So far, you've lent considerable support and credence to my position, namely, that there are NO "True Christians™."


A bear hug, a pinch on the cheek, and a big wet sloppy kiss to Joe, because he says he loves me sooooooo much.

Anonymous said...

Well- here is my point referring to those Christians who claim to have "a relationship" with Christ.
How would you describe that "relationship"? Is it more like you are talking to an imaginary figure that you call Christ when in fact you are talking to yourself? Could you-deep down inside- BELIEVE that when you have some problems in your life you actually tell these problems to Christ (for instance when standing in front of a cruzifix) and in fact you are just talking to a statue?
And then after you have been talking to the cruzifix something happens- negative or positive- your "prayers" have been answered. And then you talk to Christ again by saying "thank you" in prayer.
In Thailand I saw people talking to Buddhist statues- claiming to have "a relationship" to Buddha...when they have problems they tell these problems to their imaginary golden statute called Buddha...they claim to have "a relationship to Buddha"...well- it kind of sounds like having a relationship to Christ is like having a relationship to your teddybear in your bed back home...whenever you feel bad you talk to him and tell him your problems...and then maybe your problems are solved- and you say "thank you" to your teddybear...do you get the point?
It is all psychological- up in your mind- "praying is a psychological process"- it makes you feel better- because you have somebody who you THINK listens to you...and that makes you feel better...

Anonymous said...

hahaha

comment 500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please do not ask why I did this.

Yours in anonymity,

Anonymous.

Jake said...

Does anybody actually take Lee Strobel seriously anymore?

Erin said...

While I consider myself a christian, I don't find your site offensive or mean spirited.
You've got really good thought provoking arguments that should inspire people to think harder and possibly realize that faith is not a viable shield for not ignoring alternate arguments or failing to have the facts to defend one's opinion.
keep up the good work. :)

webmdave said...

Jesus, when in the Desert was tempted by satan, replied "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God." You sir, are tempting the Lord God by using his name to drone up a skillful way to make money. I will not tempt the Lord myself and I do as I am told. I too fall short, but I am a believer in Christ and you nor anyone can change that. I have seen and I feel his presence. Spend one week in my life and you would too. Why, because I think outside the box and believe outside the box. it opens my mind to believe in what is not seen, but also to be shown what cannot be shown to nonbelievers.

webmdave said...

For those of you that are arguing debating and throwing scriptures at eachother. Those of you who are indeed christians and the webmaster. To the webmaster first id like to address. Yes, Jesus does in fact want us to love out neighbor and give more than receive but just as the people here that do not wish to donate to your cause you are committing a sin as well.
I say this because you are judging those who do not pay you. Judge and you also shall be judged. God has compassion for everyone and gives us freedom of choice. If you were a man of God you would understand that we have a choice to pay you or not. In nowhere shape or form does it say that to not obey what you say is a sin. Does Jesus say love thy neighbor or be deemed untrue to your faith? No he does not. Also is the same that anything from the world. Including money is God's enemy anything from the world is from the enemy. Then what you are asking for is from the enemy. When Jesus disciples asked Jesus to eat. What did he say? He said I have food for which you do not understand. We dont understand because we are born in sin. We are not Jesus and therefore can never be Jesus. We as christians strive to please our God. It is why the father God had to have the son Jesus sacrificed because God understood that we are always going to be corrupt and in sin. It isnt our jobs as christians to make your pocket any bigger with something you do not need from this world. It is our jobs as christians to follow as closely as we can to God word and stay on his path. Your whole mentality is for personal gain. I'm sure since you seem so knowledgeable you then understand that you are committing a sin which goes by the name of GREED. To twist the scripture and mold it into something you want for personal gain is wrong and goes against what God wants. I would suggest you ask God for what you need instead of people. I think you need a closer relationship with your creator instead of worrying how fat your pockets will be.

For those of you that say you have a brain and can think for yourself. Why do you doubt God's existence? Surely you understand that you didn't materialize out of thin air. For those that say we came from apes. Where did those apes come from then? Or the organisms cells and matter from which that theory explains? Is it so far fetched to believe then that you came from God? Those of us christians that know God understand the holy spirit. As a person who never believed in nor God or satan I am telling you that eventhough you can all say its laughable or pathetic. That we NEED something to believe in just to get through the day. Who do you call out to when there is nothing left for you? Deep down we all know we call out to God. We say Oh my God! God help me! phrases such as these. Why is that? The holy spirit within you knows God already. Your flesh from which you were born is the barrier that prevents you from going to God. All of us in this world are searching for something. Does it ever occur to anyone that your desire or feeling of wanting is your souls cry to God? We all want a perfect world yet no one takes the steps to achieve it and those of us that do are deemed crazy or ridiculous. Why?...

Regardless of what your brain believes your soul knows the truth.
Thats why we all have the feeling of need inside of us.
It is your choice to have faith or not. Without faith there wouldnt be anything because either way regardless in our decisions we make we all have a feeling of faith. To believe its going to be ok to believe in something we cannot see. We cannot see love but yet we believe we love someone and have faith in love. God is love and to know God is to have love and faith one in the same.

webmdave said...

Donating to this site would be like giving money to a drug adict. It would be going toward things that are against God, and that is never what he wants. God doesn't always do what we want because we want it, he does what is best for us. Since Christians are called to do the same, I will not give any money to this site because it is not what is best! However, I will "pray for those who percecute" and love whoever wrote this article. I pray that God will reach out to you wherever you are and help you understand his love and true character. I also pray that he will soften your heart and help you understand what faith like a child really entails.

webmdave said...

Sure, pray away. Prayer is free! Prayer is cheap! And, you can flagrantly disobey your GOD while placating your conscience with fabricated piety.

Thumbs up!

webmdave said...

Joel I would like to add to the infallible truths you have quoted in your comments. Everything is correct however the writer of this blog stated some infallible truths as well. It is a matter of what context you use each of these truths. Joel the truth you stated is the way to salvation--Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no man can come to the father except by Him (John 14:6). Once one confesses and believes as stated in your comments, they are saved (absolutely nothing else is needed for salvation). Now when it comes to being a follower of Christ, this is where the bloggers truth come into play. Once we become Believers, we now have a choice to listen to our flesh or listen to the Holy Spirit that has been given to each of us to help us become disciples of Christ which the blogger calls "True Christians". You have stated Truth and the blogger has stated Truth but the Bible says in John 16:13, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come".

Becoming a Believer to receive salvation is open to all who confess Jesus Christ and believe He was raised from the dead -- this gets us our ticket to eternal life but to experience the purpose filled life here on earth, you have to allow the Holy spirit to teach you the rules which the blogger states loving those that hate you, blessing those that curse you, turning the other cheek...these rules work for the Believer, however they don't get you to heaven, only Faith in Christ will do that. I will close with 2 scriptures that solidifies my statements above.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Roman 8:1-6

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked. The things of the flesh reaps death here on earth and the things of the spirit, although not easy , produces life here on earth.

webmdave said...

Thanks for clearing this up so nicely Joel. Its really not that confusing of a subject. Maybe these people are "Ex-Christians" because they didn't really understand what it means to be a Christian in the first place...?

webmdave said...

Ah, the ever-so-typical, maybe we ex-christians "didn't really understand what it means to be a Christian in the first place...?"

Let me see if I can help you. At fundamental level, it wouldn't make much sense to adopt and keep adhering to a philosophy or belief, in this case, "Christianity", unless one would actually believe it is true, right? Right, as well as things like reasonable, logical, helpful, etc.

Welp, guess what? We no longer believe it is any of those things. We changed our minds, just like a spouse changes his or her mind when their partner acts unreasonably, illogically, and is unhelpful, etc. Do you also assume that all ex-wives never understood what it meant to be "married"? Well?

Oh, and then there's little 'gem' from your hero, Joel:

"God is not mocked."

LOL! Of course "God" is not mocked!....there's no "God" to mock. Now, what gets and deserves mockery is the philosophies/principles that Christianity espouses. For example, holding all of humanity responsible for the alleged poor decision-making skills of one person(and a possible accomplice) is a complete and utter mockery of your, and my, "free will". If you want more examples, let me know.

If you don't want your beliefs mocked, then don't believe mockable things.

webmdave said...

webmdave
Can I play a little Devils Advocate here?( I am not trying to defend Christianity here but I am a little confused by your actions)
The problem (for me) with your quotes of the Bible in asking for a donation IS in interpreting the following passage and YOUR actions toward it. Note:
/***
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
***/
So, if you take Luke 6:31 seriously, then you would need to donate the $10.00 back if they asked.
But then you would run the risk of being called "Christian"(you are following the quotes of the Bible) and that is not the point you are trying to prove. Since it is already known you are not Christian there really is no point to this exercise.
However, oddly, you did agree to match funds with another-less $10.00 (to go toward MDA) so perhaps you have followed the Scripture more closely than you planned to. Which leaves me a little confused as to your real point here. Since originally you said "Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context. "
You seemed to personally follow them very well and posted that you felt the "something good came of Sept 02 wager to MDA".

webmdave said...

webmdave
Can I play a little Devils Advocate here?( I am not trying to defend Christianity here but I am a little confused by your actions)
The problem (for me) with your quotes of the Bible in asking for a donation IS in interpreting the following passage and YOUR actions toward it. Note:
/***
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
***/
So, if you take Luke 6:31 seriously, then you would need to donate the $10.00 back if they asked.
But then you would run the risk of being called "Christian"(you are following the quotes of the Bible) and that is not the point you are trying to prove. Since it is already known you are not Christian there really is no point to this exercise.
However, oddly, you did agree to match funds with another-less $10.00 (to go toward MDA) so perhaps you have followed the Scripture more closely than you planned to. Which leaves me a little confused as to your real point here. Since originally you said "Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context. "
You seemed to personally follow them very well and posted that you felt the "something good came of Sept 02 wager to MDA".

PS.
Please do not label me as a "true Christian" if I donate $10.00 here because, frankly I am not.
Thx.

webmdave said...

I would not call myself a true Christian, because I have many failings in many ways, and this not the least of them. However, I will call myself a follower of Jesus, and for His sake I will give you 20 dollars (as it says to go two miles, if you are asked for one), though I would have preferred to give it to you, and not to an organization. You are right in that most "Christians" fall desperately short of the standard, but don't assume that there are none who even try to follow His commands. I don't want to buy your faith, but if I thought it would lead you to Him, I would give all of my material possessions. I mean, He did the same for me, why should I not do the same for you. 6XD36285LN7279442 is the confirmation number.

webmdave said...

Thanks Jhn,

Your contribution will go toward helping those who are escaping from the mind-numbing cult of Christianity.

Reason bless you!

webmdave said...

jehovah's witnessess practice true first centurt christianity and will be the only group saved in the end and some in the group claiming to be true followers and leading a double life which are few will be destroyed

webmdave said...

All you "Christians" should not even be arguing with this guy

Scripture says that your not to argue with people like this. "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." II Timothy 2:14

So one can conclude that, everyone who posts on this site or any other site like this is not a "real" christian.

webmdave said...

http://alyssagadson.blogspot.com/2010/09/in-fire.html

and you shouldnt use the Word to squeeze money out of Christians. Its completely wrong

webmdave said...

when that day comes...Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. including everyone on this site

webmdave said...

*cough*tithing*cough*

webmdave said...

Boy are you going to be red-faced when you stand in front of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and can't even recite a single sea-shanty.

webmdave said...

Well, I got one for ya, "Christians"

I am poor. I have no car, and cannot afford one. I have little money. I'd like a wife (but that's just stretching things. We all know Christian women only want rich guys anyways). I'd like transportation (a Moped- Tomos will be just fine), and enough money to get me thru the rest of this year at LEAST halfway well.

Now, let;s sit back and watch the self righteous talk their way outta this one. I'm being truthful. Can you be?

webmdave said...

God loves you...and the truth will set you free. I prayed for you tonight that God would open your eyes to it. My God is real...His love is real.

I am a pastor and am not in the business of deceiving people. However, I can assure you that Satan is in the business of deceiving people. I speak only what God has spoken. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

The Bible has been challenged for centuries and has stood the test of time. We have thousands of manuscripts that prove the copies we have today are genuine and accurate. We believe many more historical facts for less. Some people reject the Bible because if forces them to make a choice. It reveals who we really are...sinners hopeless apart from God's grace.

Jesus was a historical figure. His life has been recorded by many historians and in the first-hand biographies of the gospels. From a legal standpoint, eye witness testimony speaks for itself. If the eye witness testimony that has been written down was wrong, then there would have been historical rebuttle at the time of the writtings. In fact, there is more proof that Jesus rose from the dead than there was Julius Caesar ever existed.

Charles Darwin has failed on many things. Where are the missing links between species? How do we account for the fossil records that show immediate changes and mutations, not gradual? How about the wood pecker? Due to the habit of this bird and the mechanics of its neck, it is virtually impossible for him to have evolved. Even the simplest of cells must have all components in place in order to function. The flagellum of some cells is intricately designed and requires all parts to be in place. Nature points toward an Intelligent Designer who knew what He was doing.

I am not trying to change your opinion at all. In order to find truth, one must approach the evidence with an open mind. Until you reach that point, you will never reach the truth.

You can do as you wish, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Jesus has changed my life...and you cannot refute the experiences I have seen and felt. History, biology, chemistry, and natural sciences point to God. He can still change your's if you let Him.

webmdave said...

"God loves you..."

I've got news for you----your stumbling in here and telling me that an invisible man "loves" me is entirely meaningless to me, until/unless you can prove, with empirical, tangible evidence, that this invisible man actually exists.

"and the truth will set you free."

Yes, and for going on twelve years now, I've been FREE of the religious, superstitious nonsense that my friends, family, and pastor planted in my head---the same unproven nonsense that you spout right now.

"I prayed for you tonight that God would open your eyes to it. "

This seems to be an admission that it is up to your biblegod to make nonbelievers into believers. Surely you see the problem with that.....well, maybe not, so let me help you:

The ball is clearly in your biblegod's court!! If "God" doesn't "open our eyes", then guess what?... he has failed! And for the record, there is not one good reason that I need to accept your biblegod's existence on "faith". IOW, the "God's Divine Hiddenness" argument is utter bullsh*t, because even if I was thoroughly convinced that your "God" existed, that in no way means that I have to worship, love, or respect his sorry, baby-killin' a$$---my "free will" is fully intact and operable in a senario where I would be thoroughly convinced "He" exists!

"My God is real"

Prove it!

"His love is real."

Prove it, or STFU!

webmdave said...

J Crouse: "I am a pastor and am not in the business of deceiving people."

Then you've failed miserably. And your knowledge of evolutionary biology is even worse.

"The Bible has been challenged for centuries and has stood the test of time. We have thousands of manuscripts that prove the copies we have today are genuine and accurate."

So what? There are innumerable "authentic" copies of other works of fiction, too. The Bible is almost certainly fiction -- It has Talking Snakes™ and a global flood that never happened and various people coming back from the dead.

Now do the right thing--Resign your pastorship, apologize to everyone you've ever terrorized with tales of hellfire, and get yourself a real job that actually does some good in the world.

Oh, and don't forget to donate $10 to our site, too. :-D

webmdave said...

"The Bible has been challenged for centuries and has stood the test of time."

Well, at least it has during the era when church leaders could simply torture or burn people at the stake for commenting on the mythical aspects of the Bible.

"His life has been recorded by many historians and in the first-hand biographies of the gospels. From a legal standpoint, eye witness testimony speaks for itself."

That would be true if there were any eyewitness testimonies but there aren't. The writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't ever meet Jesus or see Jesus and those are not eyewitness accounts.

"In fact, there is more proof that Jesus rose from the dead than there was Julius Caesar ever existed." Now that one is just plain silly. Julius Caesar has statues of his image, coins bearing his image and numerous historians who actually lived during his time period that wrote about him. Completely unlike Jesus who is not mentioned by a single contemporaneous writer of the Jesus time period.

" In order to find truth, one must approach the evidence with an open mind. Until you reach that point, you will never reach the truth."

Now that is a true and noble statement. On this one point we can agree.

webmdave said...

no a man said that

webmdave said...

"Polly want a cracker, polly want a cracker - -- wraaaack!"

webmdave said...

BW, read something besides your Bible. Atheist simply means "a lack of belief in a god or gods." It is not a statement of faith, it is a statement of a LACK of faith.

I find no evidence to believe in a god or gods, so I don't. For much the same reason - no evidence - I don't believe in UFOs, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, the mysteries of Bermuda Triangle, the lost continent of Atlantis or that ancient astronauts visited our ancestors.

By your definition of atheism, you should be believing in UFOs, the Invisible Flying Pink Unicorn, Allah, Zeus, and every other god or goddess ever invented.

Why?

Because you cannot possible traverse the entire universe to PROVE those things don't exist.

That is so stupid!

You are every bit as much an atheist as I am. The ONLY difference between you and me is that you believe in one more god than I do.

Oh, there is one other difference. You're extremely rude. You see, this is OUR website, and you are an uninvited guest. You are in our house - yet you have no problem being aggressive and nasty.

Ah, I love "TRUE" Christians like you. "I did not call you evil, I just quoted the Scriptures," you say. Yes, but you chose the verses to quote, now didn't you? You picked them with your mind. You decided to type them with your fingers. Your intention was to label me as evil. You did that, and you enjoyed it, didn't you? How about this: "I am only quoting the Koran and doing the will of Allah!" Does that convince you of the truth of Islam? If not, why not? When you understand why the rantings of an Islamic fanatic mean nothing to you, you'll realize why your rantings mean nothing to us.

However, go ahead, quote away. You disobey the command of your GOD to give to everyone who asks, and you hold fast to the verses that condemn people. You don't want to give away your money to wicked strangers, so you ignore those verses, but you have no problem condemning others, so those verses are "right on" - apparently.

Frankly, quote all you like. Islamics do the same thing, and not one of their verses, or your verses, have the slightest impact on me. From what I understand, Allah's hell is a lot hotter than Yahweh's - perhaps we should both convert to Islam!

Seriously, please study some Christian history - the Bible keeps has been re-interpreted so many times, you'd might be surprised to realize that your brand of fundamentalism, and many of your doctrines, are relatively new.

How do I know this? I studied. Nearly all the doctrines floating around today are relatively new on the scene. That knowledge helped free my mind after 3 decades of slavery to the Christian Meme.

Sadly, in my Christian hey-days, I used to sound just a little to much like you.

It's embarrassing.

webmdave said...

I COULD HAVE POSIBLY MIS WORDED WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY. BUT FROM WHAT I WAS READING FROM THE SITE ABOUT WHERE DAVE OR WEBMASTER WAS USING SCRIPTURE ABOUT THE MONEY THING IN EXPRESSING THAT THERE ARE NO TRUE CHRISTIANS. HOWEVER SCRIPTURE IS THE BASIS USED TO PROVE OR DISPROVE DIFFERENT VIEWS.

webmdave said...

I would not call myself a true Christian, because I have many failings in many ways, and this not the least of them. However, I will call myself a follower of Jesus, and for His sake I will give you 20 dollars (as it says to go two miles, if you are asked for one), though I would have preferred to give it to you, and not to an organization. You are right in that most "Christians" fall desperately short of the standard, but don't assume that there are none who even try to follow His commands. I don't want to buy your faith, but if I thought it would lead you to Him, I would give all of my material possessions. I mean, He did the same for me, why should I not do the same for you. 6XD36285LN7279442 is the confirmation number.

webmdave said...

Thanks Jhn,

Your contribution will go toward helping those who are escaping from the mind-numbing cult of Christianity.

Reason bless you!

webmdave said...

Thanks Jhn,

Your contribution will go toward helping those who are escaping from the mind-numbing cult of Christianity.

Reason bless you!

webmdave said...

Saved,

Go to the top of this page and, just to the right of the centre and just below the centre, you will see a facility to donate to the running of this site.

Please use it, and thanks for your support.

Peace,

David

webmdave said...

[Delete]

webmdave said...

webmdave
Can I play a little Devils Advocate here?( I am not trying to defend Christianity here but I am a little confused by your actions)
The problem (for me) with your quotes of the Bible in asking for a donation IS in interpreting the following passage and YOUR actions toward it. Note:
/***
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
***/
So, if you take Luke 6:31 seriously, then you would need to donate the $10.00 back if they asked.
But then you would run the risk of being called "Christian"(you are following the quotes of the Bible) and that is not the point you are trying to prove. Since it is already known you are not Christian there really is no point to this exercise.
However, oddly, you did agree to match funds with another-less $10.00 (to go toward MDA) so perhaps you have followed the Scripture more closely than you planned to. Which leaves me a little confused as to your real point here. Since originally you said "Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context. "
You seemed to personally follow them very well and posted that you felt the "something good came of Sept 02 wager to MDA".

PS.
Please do not label me as a "true Christian" if I donate $10.00 here because, frankly I am not.
Thx.

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