8/25/2002                                                                                       View Comments

Dear Believer

by Dan Barker

Dear Believer, — You asked me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful.

You expect me to believe Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a ghost? Do you believe all the crazy tales of ancient religions? Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Seutonius said Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died; and Buddha was supposedly born speaking. You don’t believe all that, do you? Why do you expect me to swallow the fables of Christianity?


I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly turned into wine; mental illness is caused by demons; a “devil” with wings exists who causes evil; people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by angels; disembodied voiced spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people were healed by Peter’s shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth ... while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.


If you believe these stories, then you are the one with the problem, not me. These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond with reality or logic. If you can’t see that, then you can’t separate truth from fantasy. It doesn’t matter how many people accept delusions inflicted by “holy” men; a widely held lie is still a lie. If you are so gullible, then you are like the child who believes the older brother who says there is a monster in the hallway. But there is nothing to be afraid of; go turn on the light and look for yourself.


If Christianity were simply untrue I would not be too concerned. Santa is untrue, but it is a harmless myth which people outgrow. But Christianity, besides being false, is also abhorrent. It amazes me that you claim to love the god of the bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can’t tolerate criticism. I would not want to live in the same neighborhood with such a creature!


The biblical god is a macho male warrior. Though he said “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punishes offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); demands animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Is. 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); spread dung on people’s faces (Mal. 2:3); sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10). Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?


And Jesus is a chip off the old block. He said, “I and my father are one,” and he upheld “every jot and tittle” of the Old Testament law. Mt. 5:18 He preached the same old judgment: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all nonconformists. He believed in demons, angels and spirits. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. Women were excluded as disciples and as guests at his heavenly table. Except for hell he introduced nothing new to ethics or philosophy. He was disrespectful of his mother and brothers; he said we should hate our parents and desert our families. Mt. 10:35-36, Lk. 14:26 (So much for “Christian family life.”) He denounced anger, but was often angry himself. Mt. 5:22, Mk. 3:5 He called people “fools” (Mt. 23:17,19), “serpents,” and “white sepulchers,” though he warned that such language puts you in danger of hellfire. Mt. 5:22 He said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword." Mt. 10:34 (So much for “Peace on Earth.”) He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season. Mt. 21:19 He mandated burning unbelievers. Jn. 15:6 (The Church has complied with relish.) He stole a horse. Lk. 19:30-33 He told people to cut off hands, feet, eyes and sexual organs. Mt. 5:29-30, 19:12 You want me to accept Jesus, but I think I’ll pick my own friend, thank you.


One of Jesus’s many contradictions was saying good works should be seen, and not seen. Mt. 5:16, 6:1-4 One of his mistakes was saying that the mustard plant has the smallest seed. Mt. 13:31-32 The writers of Matthew and Luke could not even get his genealogy straight, contradicting the Old Testament, and giving Jesus two discrepant lines through Joseph, his non-father!


I also find Christianity to be morally repugnant. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings and conflict with the values of kindness and reason. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.


Finally, Christianity is harmful. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. The Church has a shameful, bloody history of Crusades, Inquisitions, witch-burnings, heresy trials, American colonial intolerance, disrespect of indigenous traditions (such as American Indians), support of slavery, and oppression of women. Modern “fruits” of religion include the Jonestown massacre, the callous fraud of “faith healers,” recent wars and ethnic cleansing, and fighting in Northern Ireland. Religion also poses a danger to mental health, damaging self-respect, personal responsibility, and clarity of thought.


Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity — but leave me out of it. I have better things to do with my life.

481 comments:

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Anonymous said...

By reading some of these comments I see that many of you have little Biblical understanding or knowledge of Christ and what it truly means to be a Christian. Guess what? I used to be the same way. I discredited everything about God, the Bible, and Jesus, based on what I saw from the Church, from History, and from things I perceived to be true. I questioned everything and could not understand how people could live their lives based a book written by men. How eternally grateful I am to the Lord for not giving up on me and continuing to bring Christians into my life. The Lord opened my eyes and I finally have peace in my soul.

My goal is not to convince anyone that God is real. I am just a man and my words cannot reach into your soul. I applaude the webdesigner for giving people a place to share their views. I believe that these conversations on religion exist and will never go away because people have restless souls and are empty inside. To anyone who is honestly looking for a peace that passes all understanding, don't look for perfection from Christians, who by definition are admitted sinners, look at Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life and offered himself for us that we may have life.

God Bless You

Dave8 said...

anonymous: "My goal is not to convince anyone that God is real."

Thank Nature...

anonymous: "I am just a man and my words cannot reach into your soul."

Soul? What that?

anonymous: "I applaude the webdesigner for giving people a place to share their views."

Perhaps, more attuned to providing a place to present reality...

anonymous: "I believe that these conversations on religion exist and will never go away because people have restless souls and are empty inside."

I have an empty Soul? and it causes me to be restless? How so? If one can not define the Soul, how does it become empty and restless...

anonymous: "To anyone who is honestly looking for a peace that passes all understanding, don't look for perfection from Christians, who by definition are admitted sinners, look at Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life and offered himself for us that we may have life."

i.e., don't look at this physical reality, to solve lonliness, and need, look to an historical icon labelled Jesus, who may or may not have existed, who knowingly Martyred himself (Death Cult), so that Others may receive a Benefit or Reward, i.e., everlasting life, etc... Oh, and "sin", what's that...

Anonymous said...

Dear Dave,

What are you so angry about? What is your answer for a world filled with hopelesness? If you don't think people have a soul then you have to reduce every emotion, thought, personality, and most importantly love, to just the result of neurons and electrical impulses randomly firing that have no meaning whatsoever. I like to think life is a little more meaningful than that. I like to think there is a reason to exist. I believe in the hope of eternal life. But lets just say I'm wrong and in the end there is nothing, the worst I've done is live every day with meaning, purpose and hope. What do you live for? Can you admit that not believing in God means that life is meaningless. To go through each day knowing it doesn't matter what you do, good or bad because in the end there is nothing anyway. I am glad I don't live like that anymore.

You are exactly right about not looking at this physical reality to solve our spiritual problems. If we could we wouldn't need God, and it doesn't take Einstein to see that we as humans have done a pretty good job at screwing things up. We have made industrial progress but people are still spiritually bankrupt and there is no human wisdom that can solve it.

As for sin, if you don't think there is such a thing as sin' try not to sin and you will see just how real it is

Thank you for your time,

By the way my name is Kevin. The title says anonymous because I am new to blogging and haven't figured it out yet.

Dave8 said...

Kevin: "Dear Dave, What are you so angry about?"

Kevin: "By reading some of these comments I see that many of you have little Biblical understanding or knowledge of Christ and what it truly means to be a Christian."

Kevin, if you believe that the comments, of which I am part of the "many" as you explain, that you have viewed on this site, appear to portray me as an abecedarian on the subject of the Christian religion, I challenge you to provide information that seems to have been missed during my university studies, and thousand plus hours of personal research... I suppose, I am more aggravated than angry, that people can make presumptions so easily, but then, typically from what I have experienced, the same people are also typically the ones to accept presuppositions blindly...

Kevin: "What is your answer for a world filled with hopelesness?"

Okay, now I'm angry... Who gave you the authority to anthropomorphically wrap my life, with your depraved world views... I understand you are programmed to believe we all live a hopeless life, but... personally, I have a qualitative life, and don't need the co-dependence of someone or some religion, to tell me if I am, or am not, living according to "their" standards for a "meaningful" life... A person who requires someone to tell them whether they have a meaningful life, is indeed hopeless, as they have no autonomous Individuality... that's beyond hopeless, that just sad...

Kevin: "If you don't think people have a soul then you have to reduce every emotion, thought, personality, and most importantly love, to just the result of neurons and electrical impulses randomly firing that have no meaning whatsoever."

Meaning in my life, is decided upon the decisions, I make in this life as an Individual, and the impact of those decisions on the homeostatic balance it provides me, and the whole of humanity of which I am a part...

Kevin: "I like to think life is a little more meaningful than that."

Truly, and... what per se, gives you meaning in life... is it the goal that you reach for, that has been handed to you by someone you trusted as a child, or as an adult in search for a solution for an unmet need... If it is, You as an Individual don't have a meaning... you are defined by someone elses' "meaning", and you chose to allow this, and willingly "measure" your progress toward their standard... Your lack of autonomy and ability to reach intellectually beyond the need for "other" people to "guide" you, removes you as an "authority" for judging "meaning" for those, who are capable of defining their personal "meaning" autonomously...

Kevin: "I like to think there is a reason to exist."

Please rephrase... you appear to allude that if one doesn't hold a religious view... then there obviously is no "meaningful" existence to be obtained... Kind of shallow, or do I read this wrong...

Kevin: "I believe in the hope of eternal life."

Nothing wrong with "hoping" and "wishing", if its a personal truth in ones' life... Personally, I want to retire, and travel, but... that's coming from someone who is obviously leading a Meaningless life...

Kevin: "But lets just say I'm wrong and in the end there is nothing, the worst I've done is live every day with meaning, purpose and hope."

Again, your "meaning, purpose, and hope", was "given" to you by another person, via some medium, either verbal or written... You have chosen to have "faith" in that "medium", and not in the "self" first... You have lived a life, for someone else, not your Self, and... that's your choice, however, I see trying to persuade Others to live their lives by evading total mental and intellectual "autonomy" as a gross disservice to the quality of life for that Individual, as they can not become as Maslow put it... "all they can be", they are stuck living a "limited" life, based on the beliefs of "another" person...

Kevin: "What do you live for?"

I live for happiness, care, and joy... peace, and harmony is how I reach these physical states of being... I do this by Self introspection, of "Personal" Values, and the affects they have on my life... and not by mandated "Values", given by a "second" party...

Kevin: "Can you admit that not believing in God means that life is meaningless."

You must be a pretty sad person, to not be able to live an Individual life... you are so co-dependent on God, that you can't phathom the idea that life can hold meaning without a supernatural god... So, no, I don't admit that "my" life is limited by your view of a metaphysical/supernatural god, that would be tragic for me personally to lower my self esteem to the point, that I have to be defined by some extrinsic factor...

Kevin: "To go through each day knowing it doesn't matter what you do, good or bad because in the end there is nothing anyway."

Hey Kevin, those who live for "today", and Value this "Life" know they will be immediately judged in the here and now accordingly... However, the religious view, is to do good and bad, and attempt to escape from social justice because they feel they will pay the price in the afterlife...

Obviously, you haven't read the bible in depth... if you do eventually take the time, look at the ten commandments per Exodus, and see if there are times in the bible where the commandments are broken, by your own god... Oh, and let me get you started... Thou shalt not murder/kill... Your god is the master of death and murder... Jesus murdered himself... If you aren't intelligent enough to read the bible, and need me to break out the ten commandments and how they obviously don't provide some "Absolute" moral guide, then I "may" take the time... However, it would obviously show your lack of will to know your own religious foundations...

Kevin: "I am glad I don't live like that anymore."

Well, if you needed structure in your life, because you weren't capable on innately knowing right from wrong, one could assert you need mental therapy, becuase, naturally, people know right from wrong... You moved your justification for doing bad things, to justification of a belief system with no evidence... If you consider lying to be a bad thing... then, what do you call it when someone poses a supernatural god as a "fact"... I call it "lying"... If lying were part of your previous lifestyle, that you considered bad, it doesn't appear you have moved too far, you have just shifted the object of your lies to supporting your belief... and... lets be honest... your belief garners you social benefits... therefore, you are lying for tangibles... If you hold these beliefs personally, and don't attempt to "persuade" others with lies, then no harm, no foul... however, the minute you attempt to "persuade" Others to believe your god is a "fact", is a "lie"...

Kevin: "You are exactly right about not looking at this physical reality to solve our spiritual problems."

Uh, I don't believe the metaphysical/supernatural realm exists, as by definition the Meta(beyond)physical can not be measured either quantitatively or qualitatively while existing in this natural reality... Therefore, if onw asserts they actually "exist" in this "natural" reality... they disavow the existence of the supernatural or metaphysical... Now, one can "hope", and have "faith" that the "rules" of logic and reason we have as humans are "flawed" in order for there to "exist" a dual reality (duality)... but that's banking that we as humans are "defective"... However, logic rears its head again, and says, if we are Naturally defective, then how does anyone know "anything"... to include a supernatural god... at this point... we'ed all have to claim agnosticism if truly honest... However, we both know, religions say everyone is "defective" but... religious leaders are "more" than mortal, because they "Know" the "Truth" and are able to lead the "defective" others...

If you didn't get it, I am a methodological naturalist, I don't make claims whether a supernatural god or gods exist or don't exist... However, I live my life as if they didn't, until someone pulls one of those out of their hats... and I run the data through my "sound" and magnificent brain, that "I" own...

Kevin: "If we could we wouldn't need God, and it doesn't take Einstein to see that we as humans have done a pretty good job at screwing things up."

Religion has had the biggest negative impact on humanity, than "any" other organization I know of... Christianity, leading the way... And, yes, its amazing what people will do when they have no autonomy and are so easily and blindly led to accomplish the deeds of the few religious leaders, i.e., the pope, etc... and don't say you're not Catholic, your religion was rooted in Roman Catholicism, and someone, one "defective" person, passed on their wisdom to another "defective" person to create the religion you are a part of today...

Kevin: "We have made industrial progress but people are still spiritually bankrupt and there is no human wisdom that can solve it."

But here you are, as a human, trying to solve it... Do you find that odd? Do you find it odd, that there are others who also believe there are areas for improvement for humanity, but are more willing to live in the here and now, instead of "promising" people some "reward" after "death", if they adhere to a set standard, proclaimed by a few elitist religionists...

Kevin: "As for sin, if you don't think there is such a thing as sin' try not to sin and you will see just how real it is."

That made no sense... Define sin... Lying... is that sinful? If so, religion has made an "art" out of lying over the past few thousand years... as they tout their claims as Universal Absolute Truths...

Kevin: "Thank you for your time,"

Thank you for your time, and for the time of those who have had to endure this post...

Kevin: "By the way my name is Kevin. The title says anonymous because I am new to blogging and haven't figured it out yet."

There are definitely new changes on this site, and I am also getting used to the new "feel"... take it easy...

.:webmaster:. said...

Dave8 said: "...portray me as an abecedarian on the subject of the Christian religion..."

Abecedarian! Great word and great post!

Dano said...

Dave8 said:
"Oh, and let me get you started... Thou shalt not murder/kill... Your God is the master of death and murder... Jesus murdered himself..."

First time I have seen that observation. Jesus, being God was a murderer when he had himself killed to atone for sin.

Also the part about the bible being full of lies because it is trying to make people believe a bunch of stuff that was invented by men and has no substantiation or proof.

The more I read about the bible the more I realize that I am a better person than God!

Dano said...

......oh, and before some evangelical nut reads this and says I'm gonna go to hell, let me add that I think that if God follows this site and reads everything we post, he must spend a lot of the time rolling on the floor, laughing his ass off!

Dave8 said...

Thanks WM Dave, I picked that word up in another thread on this site, it seemed pertinent :-)

Dano, I agree, the mixed nuts may indeed be preparing for a seige on this most revered virtual cloister... ;-) Oh, not only did God commit murder, but, it was pre-meditated murder :-) Jesus refused to keep the sabbath day holy, but we have plenty of nuts running around telling us, we need religion and to be in church... And God... is a self proclaimed omnipotent liar...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What I really think, when I am told continuously that I must be out of my mind for not believing in the god of the bible...

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say we are the ones that need help?"--Mark Twain

Take care...

Dano said...

Dave8,
I quote your quote by Mark Twain.

"What I really think, when I am told continuously that I must be out of my mind for not believing in the god of the bible..."

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say we are the ones that need help?"--Mark Twain

Take care...

I am always amazed at how these "giants" of literature and science like mark Twain, Galaleo, Ingersoll, Voltaire, Payne, Franklin, and many others are able to see things so clearly in one sentence or one paragraph, that others can't figure out in a lifetime of profundity in writing.

Dave8 said...

Hey Dano, I agree, some of the best writers throughout history are able to take thousands of pounds of knowledge, and squeeze the underlying meaning out using a few sentences... its truly the hallmark of the greatest minds... have a great one...

Anonymous said...

Dave

I would like to thank you for pretty much validating my assertations. Although you may have studied the Bible and/or religion it seems to me there are some areas which I think you may be misunderstood. For someone who seems to be very intelligent I think you could have done better than the 6th commandment. It is easy to see all of the killing that plakes in the Bible and say that it contradicts "Thou shalt not kill," but you have to look a little bit deeper. Throughout the Bible God authorizes killing in certain situations whether it be an animal for sacrifice or a person who took someone elses life, in either case these death's are to provide ATONEMENT, which is what JESUS' death provided on the cross. The commandment refers to murder, which is unjustified killing. Now I will in no way try claim to be a Bible scholar. I have only been studying for about 3 years, and I will be the first to admit that I have much to learn. For example, before Joshua leads the Israelites into Canaan he is instructed by God to kill everyone. I have some thoughts on why, but by reading the rest of the Bible I rest in the faith that God's judgements are always righteous.

Now you claim that I am codependant and cannot rely on myself. To that I say Amen, you are exactly right. I depend totally on the Lord to guide me each day.

When I was talking about life being meaningless and hopeless I was referring to the overall existence rather than day to day living. Sure you can find hope and meaning in your family your day to day activities, your friends, I take joy in those things as well. I also do not want give the false impression that as a Christian, life is grand and all the stop lights are green. I go through the same struggles as everybody else and since giving my life to Christ I probably have more questions now than ever before. However I no longer have to wonder about the eternal.

The hopelesness I was referring to is that if you don't believe in after life than by definition you have no hope for something greater after you die. Can you agree with that?

You also quote Mark Twain. I am going to speculate so please forgive if I'm wrong, but I assume that you believe in evolution(if not I would like to know your opinion on origin). That takes way more faith than believing in a creator. To think that an explosion occured and then wow, here is this system of planets rotating around a heat source(lucky for us we are at the perfect distance to sustain life). Then after millions of years an Amoeba crawled out of the ocean,(lucky for us it could breathe water and air)and then a couple of cycles later here we are. The problem is DNA, since DNA is a form of information you would have to assert that at some point information randomly occured from matter(which has never been shown to be able to happen). Once again,I will not claim to be a scientist, I'll just stick with believing there is a creator.

Once again I could not agree with you more that religion has a scarred history and the church has things to be ashamed of. If you look at what Jesus had to say to the Pharisees you will see that he condemns religous leaders for being corrupt and misleading others. You are also wrong to say that Christianity is rooted in Catholicism. It wasn't until the 4th century that Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of Rome. The Bible was complete most scholars say by 90 A.D.(when I say complete I mean all the books were written they were yet to be compiled). That means that the gospel was being spread for about 400 years before the Catholic religion started to form. I cannot disregard the major impact Catholicism has had on Christianity I just want to show that it is another example of what can happen if you take the the focus off of Christ(whom is the one we are to follow, not the church). Regardless of all of that, no matter what people in the church have done to give Christ a bad name, that doesn't change who Christ is or the fact that we will stand individually before God and not be judged according to what others have done.

Lastly, as a naturalist do you believe in moral relativity? If so, than who gets to decide what is right and wrong, each person? That would actually void right and wrong because each person could justify his own behavior by saying, "It's right for me."
If you don't believe in moral relativity than that would presuppose a standard of morals. From whom I ask would these morals come from?

Once again I thank you for your time. I enjoy these discussions

Kevin

.:webmaster:. said...

Kevin,

First off, please click on the little radio button that says "OTHER." Then you can type in a name, any name, like even Kevin, then you wouldn't keep coming up as anonymous. Isn't that neat?

Now as to your comment: "each person could justify his own behavior by saying, "'It's right for me,'" I've got news for you anony, um, er, Kev - that's exactly what everyone has always done, regardless of any religious affiliations. We all do what WE THINK is right. Some of us justify it by saying "GOD COMMANDS IT." Others justify it other ways.

It doesn't matter if you never masturbate and I wack off 7 times a day. It just doesn't matter - until either you or I start hurting other people with our opinions on masturbation. If I start teaching the neighborhood children how to do it, then I think most of the parents would try to see me locked away. It has nothing to do with any mystical "RIGHT AND WRONG," it has to do with parents protecting their children. If I kill someone in self-defense, then I'm not found guilty of any crime or of any wrong doing. However, if I kill someone out of anger, or jealousy, or just plain meanness, then guess what? I get the chair - or a real long vacation in prison.

Right is not harming another - wrong is harming another.

Who says? The OTHER!

I would say that if I try to harm you, you'll have a strong feeling that it's just not right. Likewise if you try to harm me, I betcha, I not going to think it's a good idea.

Absolutism made slavery legal, burned witches, tortured Jews and Muslims and anyone that didn't have the exact right CHRISTIAN doctrine, kept medicines from advancing, and tried to stifle science for over 1000 years.

Absolutism is wrong - it's wrong because it harmed millions of people for hundreds of years.

Again now, remember to check out that little radio button that says "other."

Jim Arvo said...

Kevin,

I know you directed your comments toward the webmaster, but I'd like to answer them too, if you don't mind. I'm going to restrict my comments to the "scientific" statements you made, although I think most of what you said can be debunked rather easily.

Kevin: "...I assume that you believe in evolution...."

That's a very bizarre question! I can't imagine one scientist asking another "do you believe in evolution", as if were a deity of some sort. My answer: I believe that the theory of evolution is overwhelmingly supported by the available evidence, so I *believe* that it is the most likely explanation for a great many observations. That is a dramatically different statement than professing "belief in" evolution, which generally connotes a level of confidence that exceeds the evidence, or exists independent of evidence (i.e. irrational).

Kevin: "That takes way more faith than believing in a creator."

That's about the millionth time I've heard that, and it's just as wrong now as it was the first 999,999 times. First, please explain to me what could POSSIBLY be more fantastic than an *infinitely* powerful transcendent invisible being. Even if the theory of evolution posited the spontaneous assemblage of countless atoms (which it categorically does not), how could that even be in the same league as *god*? And how would you go about objectively comparing the two scenarios in any case?

By the way, your question, and your use of the word "faith" betrays a fundamental misunderstanding about the status of scientific ideas. Theories require and deserve NO faith whatsoever. The moment they fail to accord with observed facts, they become questionable (at best), and are eventually relegated to the scrap heap. Is that the way you feel about your god? Are you willing to throw him out as soon as you encounter difficulties with the concept?

Kevin: "To think that an explosion occured and then wow, here is this system of planets rotating around a heat source(lucky for us we are at the perfect distance to sustain life)."

I take it you have never had the privilege of seeing computer simulations of galaxy formation. The marvelous thing about science is that seemingly complex phenomena can often be beautifully explained by relatively simple underlying laws. The inverse square law (of gravitation) coupled with theories of stellar evolution nicely explain the large-scale structures we see in the universe. Of course, there remain many open questions, but to think that it somehow requires "faith" to believe that planetary systems can arise from natural processes in absurd. What it requires is *hard work* to discover the underlying principles.

As for being "lucky", that's a fallacy. It's akin to saying "It sure is lucky that that big bolder over there has a mountain under it, otherwise it would come crashing down." You confuse *highly correlated* events with random events; the same fallacy is beneath most creationist claptrap.

Kevin: "Then after millions of years an Amoeba crawled out of the ocean,(lucky for us it could breathe water and air)and then a couple of cycles later here we are."

I'm sorry, but that's so puerile it's not worthy of a response.

Kevin: "The problem is DNA, since DNA is a form of information you would have to assert that at some point information randomly occured from matter(which has never been shown to be able to happen)."

Define "information". If you can do that, you'll need to publish it in a prestigious scientific journal, because it's been a vexing problem for centuries. But, putting that aside, you claim that it has "never been shown... to happen". Where did you get that idea? Under any intuitive definition of information that I am aware of, it can and *has* been shown to occur. In fact, it's almost trivial to show that "information" can be discovered by random chance, both in biological organisms and via computer simulations (e.g. artificial evolution, genetic algorithms, Monte Carlo algorithms, etc.).

Kevin: "Once again,I will not claim to be a scientist, I'll just stick with believing there is a creator."

No, you clearly have very little scientific interest at all. If you had, you would have examined your statements critically and discovered that they are merely a bunch of unfounded assertions and ill-defined concepts. There's nothing wrong with believing in a creator; that's your right. But if you think this somehow enables you to leap to profound scientific conclusions using nothing but gut-feel and naive intuition, then you are sorely mistaken.

.:webmaster:. said...

Actually Jim, I think Kev was trading posts with Dave8 - I just nosed in.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi webmaster, yes, you are right. Kevin, please substitute "Dave8" for "webmaster" in my post above. The rest of my comments can stand as they are.

Kevin said...

Jim

Like I said before, I am not a scientist, but tell me where I go wrong here. Science is available to everybody and the laws and physical properties of our universe apply whether or not the person analyzing the data is a Christian or not. What I'm saying is that the scientist who is an Evolutionist or the one who is a Creationist are both looking at the same data, just from different points of view. So an evolutionist would look at the universe and marvel, and try to figure out how it came to be, and a Creationist would look at the same universe and marvel at the awesome glory of God. Same universe, different points of view.

My question is this: Can something come from nothing? However a galaxy forms, what does it form from? Then what does that form from? I am not attempting to be sarcastic, it just seems to me that as you continue to go backwards there must be a starting point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the law of Entropy?, that we are continually heading toward randomness. Again, please correct me if I am misunderstood.

Jim Arvo said...

Kevin said "What I'm saying is that the scientist who is an Evolutionist or the one who is a Creationist are both looking at the same data, just from different points of view. So an evolutionist would look at the universe and marvel, and try to figure out how it came to be, and a Creationist would look at the same universe and marvel at the awesome glory of God. Same universe, different points of view."

I have no problem with what you just said. Yes, of course people can reach different conclusions, even if the same data is available to them. But that's NOT what you said before. You said "That takes way more faith than believing in a creator", which implies that there is LESS evidence in support of evolution than creation. I think the latter assertion is absurd.

Kevin: "My question is this: Can something come from nothing?"

Yes, millions of times per second, in every square inch of space. Look up vacuum fluctuations, or "virtual particles". The effect is well-known, has a solid theoretical foundation, and can be observed in the laboratory. Many physically observed phenomena conflict with naive intuition, which is precisely why armchair speculation about cosmology and biology are of little to no value.

Kevin: "However a galaxy forms, what does it form from? Then what does that form from?"

I'm not sure your question is even meaningful, as it implies that matter DID "form" from something else, and it also implies a temporal ordering (i.e. there was a "time" before matter existed). Those assumptions are deeply rooted in our innate macroscopic views of the world, and they break down (if modern theories are correct) under extreme conditions, just like practically every other "intuitive" concept.

But, to keep this discussion simple, I'll just answer the question as if it were well-posed. Here is my answer: "I don't know". Now, please tell me what you can conclude from the fact that I do not know. Does that mean "god exists"?

Kevin: "...as you continue to go backwards there must be a starting point."

As you sit there, simulating the entire universe in your brain, according to the intuition you (and your ancestors) have built up by interacting with teacups, tennis rackets, and the family dog, you fancy that you can somehow arrive at a profound cosmological insight. Is that right? Are you also able to see the implications of time dilation, or general relativity, or quantum tunneling? I suspect not, for the simple reason that these things violate our naive intuition.

Kevin: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the law of Entropy?, that we are continually heading toward randomness."

You mean the second law of thermodynamics (SLT)? That is a *descriptive* law that, as yet, has never been observed to be broken (so it's "robust" in that sense). However, to put it simply, nobody has a clue whether it applies to the entire universe, nor whether a singularity (such as the Big Bang) can violate it. For all we know, it's a "law" that arose from some kind of symmetry breaking as the universe cooled (and other symmetries were broken, such as those uniting the fundamental forces).

Bottom line: You simply *cannot* expect to reach profound cosmological conclusions by consulting your intuition, nor by trotting out some elementary principle or law. It's nowhere near that simple, as 20'th century physics has demonstrated time and again.

boomSLANG said...

I always find it comical when Theists say things like "the earth is the PERFECT distance from sun... blah, blah, blah" in support of "Intelligent" Design.

First off, the "sun" is a god damned STAR---there's bazillions of them, so shut-the-f%ck up about "odds". Secondly, I live in Florida, and on any given day I can see some elderly person walking around with half a nose or only one flippin' ear because "the earth is the perfect distance from the sun." Lastly, if you live up north, I would ask you to please conserve energy during the winter and STOP using your heaters!!!!Why?..because "the earth is the perfect distance from the sun", of course....::eye roll::...

Dave8 said...

Kevin, you got great responses to your questions... Jim is solid on the scientific information...

Perhaps, the only insight I can provide will come in the form of philosophy... What we are describing in epistemological foundations for "knowledge"... In short, what is knoweldge... and can someone have a belief without knowledge... Further, is it irrational to have a belief, without knowledge...

"Knowledge is the awareness and understanding of facts, truths or information gained in the form of experience or learning (a posteriori), or through introspection (a priori). Knowledge is an appreciation of the possession of interconnected details which, in isolation, are of lesser value."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge

If we were to take this definition literally, and you accepted the terms... It means, that one need "experience", or "learn", a posteriori (after events take place), or "introspectively", a priori (before events take place)... We use a posteriori and apriori processes to formulate what are facts and truths...

There are two types of truths... personal, and Universal...

Personal truths, are garnered based on a persons' mental disposition, which rests on physiological and psychological foundations which are influenced by social environment...

Universal truths, are different, they require validation from more than one person, and in consistent terms - usually quantifiable terms... When a Universal Absolute Truth is asserted, it means, that the truth, has no exceptions to the rule, from past, to present, or to the future... For instance, thou shalt not murder/kill, is obviously not a Universal Absolute Truth, as murder/killing has occurred numerous times throughout the bible... Therefore, the bible does not hold an Absolute moral law... The way you explained Murdering/Killing in the bible places it in the realm of subjective morality... subjective, because one can choose to murder someone else, based on how they interpret the context of the bible... Now, of course "you" may not take the bible as the Universal Absolute Truth, literally... however, there are many who do... pointing out the absurdity of an absolute moral code in the bible, was the point I was making earlier... Does that remove "laws" in general from society? No...

However, do you ever wonder why there are judges... I would surmize a guess, that they are there because of the grayness of laws, and becuase they along with the entire judicial branch of the government know, that there are very few dichotomous cases, i.e., cut and dry, either right or wrong, and no mitigating circumstances... Probably has to do with determinism I would suspect... a child is abused (cause), they get in fights at school (effect), and they end up in the principles office being judged on a minor scale, no pun, and a fair judge would take into acccount the past of the child, in order to render a just verdict, whether it be rehab, etc...

Do I as a Methodological Naturalist have moral degeneration because of my views, based on relativism? Fair question... I don't believe in Absolutes, there is only one I "know" of based on a postpriori experience, and that's "Change" (and its not 100% fact, there is the remote possibility that a reductionist will one day break down matter to particles that are in a static state)... Aside from that, I have "Values", which found my personal truth... In chronological order, the Value of "Life" is at the top of the list... The U.S. judicial system is based on those few inalienable rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... If a person affects another persons' rights, laws are created and people charged with crime... The U.S. legal system has gone through some serious changes over the past few hundred years to include civil rights, etc., to ensure the inalienables were being supported, as previously, slavery, etc., was surely not in accord with those inalienables...

So, how do I perceive morality... easy, don't tread on Other peoples' inalienable rights, the right to "Life" being at the top of the list... I suppose my values seem to initially line up with the U.S. legal system, fascinating...

Now, do I consider it amoral for someone to commit suicide, or overdose on drugs and die, etc... I would be infringing on another persons' right to liberty, if I were to impose my beliefs on them, in my humble opinion... In India not so long ago, some religions partook of a ritual where deceased people were burned... not so bad, I mean we have cremation also... However, if a male was married, and they outlived their wife, their "wife" got thrown on the fire while alive also... Do I think that amoral? Or, is it the right of the invididual to make choices in life, which ultimately "only" affect themselves... I don't want to speculate on this topic too long, this is just a matter of personal truths, and I know mine, and the Values they reside on... I don't necessarily align my Values with those of religion however, and is a point of contention... Murdering for Murder sake, violates my Value of "Life"...

You're religious obviously, therefore, you believe we all have "ghosts" inside us... Per the bible, God allowed Eve to Murder all of our souls... He sat back, watched Eve get tempted, and allowed all of humanity to be damned for eternity... Now, this poses a twist...

Scenario; A woman who has a baby or is within seconds/minutes of conceiving a baby wants to commit suicide, or kill her baby before commiting the act... do I think that is moral... No... She is removing another beings "Life", by imposing her power over that helpless being...

Now, your God, "according to religion" on the other hand, had no problem allowing Eve to spiritually murder billions upon billions of people, until the entire human race disappears... Your God, whatever his reasoning/justification is in direct opposition of my primary Value, "Life"...

Your God murdered his own son, or himself, in theory for a greater cause... Because he is speculated to be all powerful, he "chose" to allow murder to occur... as he could have prevented the act, if indeed he were all powerful... your God, as an all powerful being, "Intentionally" murdered his own son... If you are going to postulate that your God is not all powerful, I will chalk up a different argument, but until then... The God of the OT, as opposed to the God of the NT, Murdered his own son, for Greater Glory...

Personal morality is based on the truths we hold, through a priori reasoning, and a postpriori knowledge... Your beliefs, and even your "religion", is based on "a priori" knowledge, you "hope" for the future to provide you something that you have not yet "experienced"... I on the other hand, base my Values and "knowledge" on a postpriori experiences...

What you "believe" a fact, using a priori introspection, I call, hypotheticals, and stating you have a well founded "Knowledge" of anything using "a priori" processing is suspect, until the concept is pulled into this natural world, and others can view the "knowledge" universally... Until you do, you have a personal truth... and pardon, but... in my humble opinion, I don't call a priori cognitive processing "knowledge"... In short, "Knowledge" wants to be put into "action", and "tied" to observable attributes in our Natural environment... I can think of Santa Clause all day long, but until St. Nick shows up and becomes "anchored" somehow to this natural environment, I can't truly "know" of him, I can however, "Guess" what he "May" be like... I mean, using my natural environment, to create the image of Santa Clause, how I am to "Really" 'Know" Santa... as, I haven't Experienced him...

For me, I base "Knowledge" predominately on "a postpriori" experiences, and reserve my "imagination" to postulate ways to manage matter, processes, etc., that all are connected and anchored in this natural universe, in short, I cognitively model the natural universe in my mind, using diagraming models, mathematics, patterns, etc...

The only exception to using my "imagination" where there is no "total" grounding is when I read fantasy books, or watch sci-fi movies for entertainment... but of course, I apply what I read, or view to this natural universe... I don't accept that Harry Potter is real, because the events that are portrayed in the movie, are not something I have "a postpriori" knowledge of... I am an empiricist, I need experience, its how I am cognitively mapped...

If someone says they have "Knowledge" of a metaphysical object, because they have persuaded themselves to "believe" in the object... I don't consider their belief to have any universal meaning... in short, its all in that persons' head, and their head alone... The second one can pull that thought out into this natural environment, it then becomes "experience" to more than one person, and experienced through more than just a cognitive premonition...

Religion, rests its head on Absolutes... and is therefore, absurd... it then moves toward using Natural experience to persuade others that there is more to their experiences in this natural life, than their natural senses tell them... again, no evidence, purely persuasion without evidence... You stated earlier that the same Natural evidence can be viewed in two different ways by two different people... Sure, but... one is making more out of the evidence, than the evidence supports... and that is dishonest... Using "knowns", to create or establish "Unknowns" as facts, as religion does, is not honest...

freeman said...

Why are Super Novas still occurring?
Why are the tetonic plates still moving on earth and volcanos spewing lava?

All of these should not be happening if god created things as they are in 6 days. What is the pupose of change?

Dave8 said...

Hey freeman, good question, if God indeed created everything perfect, there would be no need for "change"... Seems, God doesn't believe in religion, because religion itself changes... ;-)

Robert Zbornak said...

Is HELL hot?

The Bible has answered the question. It has shown that Hades, Sheol or hell is the common grave of mankind. At the resurrection hell gives up its dead. God destroys hell, for it is cast into the “lake of fire.” Gehenna represents the state of destruction that lasts forever and ever. There is no hope of a resurrection for those in Gehenna. So the fiery hells are only pagan hells. The Bible hell (Sheol-Hades) is not hot, but is the dark, silent grave.

If you have any question on the Bible, please send it to me at my email address.

Dave8 said...

robert zbornak: "Gehenna represents the state of destruction that lasts forever and ever. There is no hope of a resurrection for those in Gehenna."

Hey, berk, most Jews believe that "NO ONE" stays in Gehenna for more than 12 months, which accounts for their period of mourning... If someone sends you an e-mail, I hope they aren't looking for unbiased information...

Kevin said...

Dave,

You said, "if God indeed created everything perfect there would be no need for change. I am very dissapointed, you said you have thousands of hours of personal research and university studies. Yet you seem to have missed one of the utmost Biblical foundations.

God absolutely created everything perfect(Gen 1:31). However after man sinned the fall occured in 4 ways. Man was separated from God when he hid himself(Gen 3:8), man was separated from each other(Gen 3:12,13), man was separated from the Earth which is now cursed(Gen 3:17,18), and man was separated from himself(this info is paraphrased from Josh McDowell's "Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith"). The Bible clearly shows that the world is damaged because of sin and the only way to repair it is through Christ. And if there is any doubt as to whether or not God believes in change I'll let the Lord speak for himself when he says in John 3:3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Not only does God believe in change he requires it.


I am sure you have plenty of knowledge about the history of religion, and as I said before I am in agreement with you that many horrible things have been done in the name of religion. However, Christianity does not stand because of religious concepts. It stands solely on the credentials of Jesus Christ. If Jesus is not who he says he is, then as Paul said in I Cor 15:19, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." But if Jesus is who he says he is "the way, the truth, and the life"(John 14:6) shouldn't we trust in him?

freeman said...

Kevin,

"The Bible clearly shows that the world is damaged because of sin and the only way to repair it is through Christ. And if there is any doubt as to whether or not God believes in change I'll let the Lord speak for himself when he says in John 3:3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Not only does God believe in change he requires it."

Could you provide examples of were god requires change in the universe for "man's sins".

According to the bible, he may ask that a person be re-born, but what has that have to do with super novas, black holes, etc? Why is the universe not static? but under constant change?


"The Bible clearly shows that the world is damaged because of sin..."

Please elaborate!

Kevin said...

Freeman,

The Bible says in Gen 1:31 that everything God made was good. After sin, the Earth was cursed(Gen 3:17) and began to change. Everything we know about our world is from a post-curse perspective, we don't know what the celestial conditions were before the fall, so I do't know why there are still super-nova's.

As far as I know God does not require the universe to change, it changes because of sin. for example, there wasn't even rain on the Earth until the time of Noah(Gen 2:5), that means that something like rain which is a neccessity for us is actually the result of man's sin. However,
Rev 22:2,3 says that when Jesus return's, the leaves from the tree of life will be for the healing of the nations and there will be no more curse. So, the Earth was perfect, then cursed, then it will be redeemed.

I am completely in awe at how unlimited our minds are. I don't think we will ever stop searching for answers to things we don't understand. Sometimes though, I believe it can be to our detriment if we let the unknowable burden us too heavily. Romans 11:33 says, "O'h the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgement's and His ways past finding out!"

So, whenever I get perplexed or overwhelmed at trying to understand why some things in this world are so unexplainable I take comfort at what Jesus says in Matt 11:28, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

I thank God for that rest!

Kevin

freeman said...

Kevin said:
"I am completely in awe at how unlimited our minds are."

I am completely in awe also at how unlimited our (human) minds are, given the text of the bible. Some imagination I'll say!

"So, whenever I get perplexed or overwhelmed at trying to understand why some things in this world are so unexplainable"

Thats right, hide under a rock and not use logic, reason and intelligence to learn! If the medical community had your philosophy, we would still be living just like your imaginary friend jesus. Just think no medicine for bacterial infections. No hospitals and the average age of humans would return to ~35 to 40 years old.

Also, no electricity, etc. Oh why not go live with the Amish, they have been overwhelmed with modern times that they reject all that they do not understand. I praise Ben Franklin for not completely understanding lightning and having the balls to experiment and discover electricity. Otherwise people like you would swear that the bolts were from an angry god, like Zeus! At least Zeus gave a fuck about humans and took pity upon them unlike his cousin Jehova, Elohim, Yahway or Allah (take your pick).

The problem is, it is all make believe. Again, I'll refer to what you said; "I am completely in awe at how unlimited our minds are."

freeman said...

Kevin,
Here is what you consider to be the first drops of rain on earth. Please read (you do know how to read, right?) all 11 pages.
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab1.htm

Jim Arvo said...

Kevin said "...Christianity does not stand because of religious concepts. It stands solely on the credentials of Jesus Christ."

And those "credentials" are established by what/whom? The Bible, right?

Kevin: "If Jesus is not who he says he is,..."

You mean if Jesus is not who the anonymous gospel writers claim he is. There is no way of telling for sure how much, if any, of the gospel saying were ever uttered by Jesus, nor whether there even was such a man. (You realize that Paul never quoted Jesus, nor seemed to know much of anything about him as a human being, right?)

Kevin: "...then as Paul said in I Cor 15:19, 'If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.'"

I think it's "most pitiable" for people to structure their lives around religious myths. Paul was a religious zealot, just like the founders of countless other religions. Why not listen to Muhammad and worship the "one true god" of Allah? Why did you choose to believe what Paul had to say?

Kevin: "...But if Jesus is who he says he is 'the way, the truth, and the life' (John 14:6) shouldn't we trust in him?"

Yep. If he was actually god in the flesh, you bet; we should bow to him and follow his every command. But, now let's ask another hypothetical: If Krishna is the one true god, should we not worship him? The answer would have to be "yes", wouldn't it? Now, the ten-ton elephant in the room is this question: WHICH, IF ANY OF THEM, IS A *REAL* DEITY?

Later Kevin said "...whenever I get perplexed or overwhelmed at trying to understand why some things in this world are so unexplainable I take comfort at what Jesus says in Matt 11:28, 'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'"

What's wrong with saying "I don't know"? Those have got to be the three most underutilized words in the world, especially among religionists.

Anonymous said...

Greetings. Did value exist before the first human being upon this earth? If not, value is simply a function of the human mind. Value is nothing more than what one likes or dislikes, one's approvals or disapprovals. Are the horrors of the Nazis during WWII nothing more than one's individual approval or disapproval? Is it purely subjective? Or in their atrocities were the Nazis guilty of real (objective) moral wrong? If yes, what law did they violate? Law of U.S.A.? Law of England? Or some other law? If the Nazis are guilty of real, objective moral wrong, that entails an objective standard. If there is no higher law, a law which rises above what is involved in a certain locality during a certain period of time, by which the conduct of individuals or societies may be correctly judged as either morally right or morally wrong, then it's false and wrong to say the Nazis actually did real wrong with their concentration camps and the murder of six million human beings.
But if one admits the Nazis did wrong, that person admits that there is a higher law that transcends the provincial and the transient. My question, what is that higher law?

Dave8 said...

anonymous 12/11/2005 10:52 PM: "Greetings. Did value exist before the first human being upon this earth? If not, value is simply a function of the human mind."

Values are developmentally understood, babies don't have knowledge, but they innately try to survive at the earliest stages of fetal development...

anonymous 12/11/2005 10:52 PM: "Value is nothing more than what one likes or dislikes, one's approvals or disapprovals."

A child lives according to natural instinct, until they reach a point between birth and 6/7 years old, where their values are learned from their caregivers/environment, and based on cause-effect to their state of being... at this point, a "child" doesn't have "autonomous" values, they are living according to their programming...

anonymous 12/11/2005 10:52 PM: "Are the horrors of the Nazis during WWII nothing more than one's individual approval or disapproval?"

It depends on "who" you ask...

anonymous 12/11/2005 10:52 PM: "Is it purely subjective?"

Theoretically, there is "no" purely objective response, when describing matters of humanity and behavior... there are "correlations"... between the individual, and the "mean" belief of a society... because there are no purely Objective laws, we have "judges" who preside over courts to make decisions based on scenarios, that are "never" the exact same...

anonymous 12/11/2005 10:52 PM: "Or in their atrocities were the Nazis guilty of real (objective) moral wrong? If yes, what law did they violate? Law of U.S.A.? Law of England? Or some other law? If the Nazis are guilty of real, objective moral wrong, that entails an objective standard. If there is no higher law, a law which rises above what is involved in a certain locality during a certain period of time, by which the conduct of individuals or societies may be correctly judged as either morally right or morally wrong, then it's false and wrong to say the Nazis actually did real wrong with their concentration camps and the murder of six million human beings.
But if one admits the Nazis did wrong, that person admits that there is a higher law that transcends the provincial and the transient. My question, what is that higher law?"

The forefathers of the U.S. didn't pick out a Higher Law according to some "SuperNatural" power, as if... They went back to the "Basic" instinctual nature we act upon, which is survival... Therefore, they determined there to be "certain" inalienable rights upon birth, survival being at the top of the list... therefore, they concluded "life", the "liberty" to be free from physical oppression, and the freedom from intellectual persuction which leads to "happiness" to be the basic rights of citizens...

The U.S. Constitution is the Higher Law in the U.S., and is based on inalienable "rights"... Other nations may have their own foundations, and the right to lead separate and sovereignly, until they allow their citizens or national influence to attack another nation based on its own understanding of higher law...

Therefore, the higher law, if one wanted to argue for arguments' sake, would be "Nature" and the instinctive and innately act of survival... I'm almost positive that the religious attribute this higher law to some "spiritual law", with "zero" foundation...

Perhaps, that is why there is "natural" law practiced in the U.S., along with "common" law, which is based on custom, religious custom/culture to be precise...

When the religiously uneducated, attempt to take their "beliefs" based on custom, and there are thousands of different "views" based on religious custom, and attempt to make some binding law, it gets to be a little ridiculous... Whereas a religious moron would suggest "life" is valuable because a book says so, there are others who believe that "life" is Naturally understood and "valuable", and there isn't a need for a battle of the bibles, to figure it out...

Speaking of common law, if the U.S. justice system were totally based on comon law, we would be able to cite the bible and commit murder based on "exceptions" to the rule, one being, blasphemy of god per the bible... I mean, if one wanted to really look at the bible, Jesus allowed Judas to facilitate his death... a precedent for "euthanasia"... I wonder why Dr. Kavorkian finally got slapped in prison for following the same principle... probably had something to do with Natural Law...

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Mr. Anonymous.
I have a question. Of the following statements, which one(s) is (are)true:
1) A woman was on earth before any human baby.
2) A human baby was on earth before any woman.
Or are or both statements or one of the statements false?

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous (on 12/11/2005 10:52 PM EST) said "But if one admits the Nazis did wrong, that person admits that there is a higher law that transcends the provincial and the transient. My question, what is that higher law?"

I'll give a one-word answer, then elaborate: "Phylogeny", or the historical development of an organism. One often hears the false dichotomy of "absolute moral law" vs. "personal whim" being bandied about by religionists, but this deftly ignores any innate sense of right and wrong that is built up in the same way that wasps have learned to build elaborate nests, and ants have learned to enslave lesser creatures; i.e. through the development of successful survival strategies over millions of generations.

Do I disdain rape and murder because "god made it so", or because it's a personal whim? No, neither. I disdain those things for the very same reason that you do, and most human being on this Earth do; they are reprehensible to me because that is the way I am "wired" as a typical, highly social, human being, AND because this innate disdain has been reinforced through my upbringing and exposure to countless intellectual arguments in favor of peaceful coexistence.

Adding to the confusion that many religionists exhibit over this point is a common misunderstanding of Darwinism; they conflate "survival of the fittest" with promoting evil totalitarian regimes (with the Nazis being most commonly cited). This is extremely naive at many levels. First, "survival" can be, and often is, most successfully attained through *cooperation*, not domination. In fact, such totalitarian regimes are routinely toppled by the much more stable alliances based on cooperation, which are de facto more "fit". Second, the principle is in no way normative; one cannot deduce what "ought" to be true from it. Third, the principle only applies to characteristics that affect the gene pool over vast stretches of time.

Moreover, simply stating one's strong preference for an "absolute" system of morals in no way makes the latter more likely. Even if we all agreed that it would be far better to have an absolute and unambiguous system of justice, that is completely irrelevant when it comes to the questions of what we actually HAVE. Nature, so far as I can tell, is under no obligation to deliver what we prefer to have.

Lastly, I see absolutely no evidence for there being moral "absolutes" that exist outside of the human mind. Moral ambiguities abound, and they will keep courts of international law busy in perpetuity. While there is strong sociological evidence for some basic innate principles that are common to all humanity, even a casual observer can see that these simple "heuristics" quickly lead to conundrums that have no clear answer, and over which people are sharply divided.

In summary: 1) What you offer is a false dichotomy, as you ignore innate tendencies, which appear to be the *real* bedrock of morality, and are explainable in natural terms, 2) Regardless of what we deem preferable, we must look at the *evidence* in order to ascertain what *is* the case, and 3) nobody has been able to articulate a universal moral code that consistently and unambiguously allows us to resolve our differences, for even within a given religious sect there is sharply divided opinion.

For all of these reasons, I believe there is no such thing as an "absolute" moral law; i.e. one that exists outside of the human mind.

Dano said...

Anonymous,
You could say a sub human female primate gave birth to the first human.
In order to know which birth that was, you would have to have an exact definition a human. Since this is impossible, you would never get any two people to agree on which sub human female primate, gave birth to the first "Human Mutant."

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. Who will affirm that "I know that the God who is revealed to us in the Bible and through nature" does not exist? And please explain how you know.

Jim Arvo said...

Mr. Anonymous said "Who will affirm that 'I know that the God who is revealed to us in the Bible and through nature' does not exist? And please explain how you know."

That's a ridiculous question, couched in the same ridiculous *absolute* language that most religious claptrap indulges. (It also makes the unwarranted assumption that the god of the Bible is the same as the god revealed through nature, if indeed both actually exist, but I'll leave that aside for now.) Let me re-phrase the question so that it can be answered simply and directly:

Question: Who will explain why you do not believe in the god that is proclaimed in the Bible?

See the difference? Your statement hinges on (presumably absolute/infinite) *knowledge*, whereas mine is a request for one's *reasons* for not accepting a fantastic claim. Phrased in the more reasonable way, the query has a very succinct answer:

Answer: There is no credible evidence to support that claim.

Elaborating on that some....

1) The Bible itself has no inherent authority as it fails to exhibit any credible evidence of having divine origin. In fact, the evidence is overwhelming that it is the product of the human imagination, weaving together many existing mythical motifs from much more ancient religions, just like every other existing religious text. The so-called "fulfilled prophecies" all crumble when examined closely, as they rely on imaginative interpretations of older text, invented fulfillments, etc.

2) Christian dogma is replete with nonsensical and contradictory claims, such as the notion of atonement, the notion of the trinity, and original sin. Throw in the countless acts of wanton cruelty (rape, slavery, genocide, infanticide, deception, etc.) perpetrated and condoned by this supposedly infinitely merciful being, and stories of talking animals, a tower that reaches into heaven, Noah's ark, etc., and you have a belief system with all the credibility of a Brothers Grim fairy tale.

3) People the world over, in all cultures, since recorded history, have invented similar stories and believe them just as fervently as do those alive today who proclaim that THEIR god exists, and that THEIR holy book is the inspired work of god. As these stories are wildly different, they cannot all be true. This clearly shows man's capacity to deceive himself when it comes to invisible sentient beings, for which there is not a shred of credible evidence.

4) Every argument I have ever heard for the existence of god, or for the divine nature of a given holy text, has disintegrated on critical examination. Each one has been based on distortion of fact or fallacious reasoning.

Is that sufficient, or shall I go on?

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. Why is it ridiculous when I use "absolute language"? Are one's "reasons" in answer to my questions one's personal opinion, or one's statement of fact?

Matt said...

Hi, Im a (insert name). Other words im a 'wanna-be christian', aka i want to be like the other christians, who experience things, like toungues, and i want to be assured of salvation, when i dont feel any different. BAH, bak to the point. I want to elaborate on the other fellas comment on values. G'day!
yeh so knowledge we can presume is an integral part of ones interpretation of values. So to properly understand this he has used the example of a child. Knowledge is an ongoing build up of information. A child takes in this information from its surrounding, i.e parents, people. Therefore we presume that as the child is taking in knowledge in this way he is also absorbing the values that it is taught. (maturity) So what im saying is if your mother tells you off for taking something that is not yours then you take in the knowledge that it is no appropriate and then that knowledge becomes our values. In contrast primitive cultures have different values because they take in different information. So you can also say the age old debate that genitics AND ENVIRONMENT (environment means knowledge, which means values) both determaine the type of person with such values you will become. A test of two identical twins was taken, where both were seperated and risen differently by a french man. Different values were present like how people are unique and different because of their upbringing. I would also like to add that religion has a big part of escpecially western values. I like to think of it as a inheritance. Pre-Christian world (watch the movie alexander), was very different. Then christianity was introduced. When it was intoduced it was fed in to peoples homes, governments and ultimatelty their lives. Therefore is was passed down in time (those values) from generation to generation. I mean look at most western governments the laws reflect those values. Do you the ancient world had values for the education of every child in their empire? Im no expert by any means. I just have a theory, like many i am jst fuullll of question. P.S some ppl really like to diss my writing but hmm..kinda in a hurry to check spelling and everything. Peace.

Dave8 said...

Anonymous: "Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. Why is it ridiculous when I use "absolute language"? Are one's "reasons" in answer to my questions one's personal opinion, or one's statement of fact?"

Greetings, Mr. Anonymous. One's personal opinion is absolute to the person wielding the belief, if they have shut off all doors to reason and ability to adapt and learn..., a person then becomes absolutely brain dead, but hey, they're absolute in their ways...

And, No, there is no Universal Absolute Truth, besides Change known at this time... Hence, why its unnatural and uneducated for a person to say, that their "personal" truth is Universally True... Because of trial and error over the past few thousand years, democracy has shown to be the most adaptible framework for a changing society...

Dave8 said...

Matt, I agree with your observation regarding values... Its plainly evident that values have "evolved" over time, to accomodate the environment a child grows up in, and according to their physiological limitations...

In some countries, its okay for a woman to marry multiple men, and in others for men to marry multiple women... its the inability of religion to adapt to changing values that makes it ridiculous... :-) take care...

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. If you were to meet a person with one prosthesis, say, a hand, while his other hand was his natural one, would you know that the prosthesis was designed by an intelligent being? If not, why not? Would you know that his natural hand was designed by an intelligent being? If not, why not?

Dave8 said...

Anonymous: "Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. If you were to meet a person with one prosthesis, say, a hand, while his other hand was his natural one, would you know that the prosthesis was designed by an intelligent being? If not, why not?"

Perhaps, it depends on the craftsmanship I suppose...

Anonymous: "Would you know that his natural hand was designed by an intelligent being? If not, why not?

Well, if a child was born with a deformed hand... I wouldn't call the creator intelligent, would you? Unless, the creator is deformed also... and then it would make perfect sense... cheers...

John Bobbitt said...

Lost and found. Looking for one cranial prosthetic, with owner's name on side, "Any Christian".

I saw Jesus on the side of a milk carton the other day, I wonder if they finally found him, the milk's over 2,000 years old.

.:webmaster:. said...

Mr Anonymous,

Yes of course a prosthesis is designed by an intelligent being - or at least by a human being. Prosthetics don't naturally occur in nature - they are made in factories by people. We can observe this. We can go into a prosthetic factory and watch the process from start to finish.

If your ultimate point is to compare naturally occurring events and living things with man-made objects, then you are trying to compare proverbial apples to oranges. A better analogy might be that you are comparing automobiles with trees. We simply do not know exactly how a tree has developed into the form of life that it is. We cannot watch the process of how the tree developed - we may have reasonably reliable scientific theories or strong religious beliefs on how it happened, but we can't absolutely say how or even why a trees developed into their present form as opposed to any other optional plant form.

Human arms and prosthetic arms have nothing in common. A natural arm exists because it developed over eons of evolution. Most mammals don't have arms, so they are not an absolute necessity for being alive - they are quite useful though. A prosthetic arm exists because a person finds their arms useful and if an arm is lost for any reason, the person may want to try to replace it.

However, if any person has an appendectomy, we don't try to replace our appendixes because they are no longer useful.

Or if your supposition is that because a prosthetic has a purpose that proves it has a design and a natural arm has a purpose so that proves it has a design. Well, hurricane Katrina certainly must also have been designed because it certainly had a purpose right? That purpose undoubtedly was to kill, destroy property and afflict the wicked sons of men! Using your logic, Katrina raised hell with thousands of people, so that was its intended purpose. Praise be!

My point? Having the appearance of design in nature is a far cry from actually being designed by a thinking intelligent being, AKA God - who would also have to be an extremely complex entity with a purpose but who completely contradicts the whole "things that look designed need a designer" mentality because this god doesn't require a designer.

Anonymous said...

"......oh, and before some evangelical nut reads this and says I'm gonna go to hell, let me add that I think that if God follows this site and reads everything we post, he must spend a lot of the time rolling on the floor, laughing his ass off!"

Why can't "ex-Christians and the like ever say something original instead of just quoting Depeche Mode and eachother. From Dave's description of Jesus it is apparent that you read the Bible not with the intention of discovery, learning, or exploration of any kind but simply to further your own argument. He tries to sound so smart as he blogs with his dictionary and thesaurus readily at hand, but the big words don't magically make sense of the way off base ramblings. The truth is there is truth and some people will simply miss it. But thankfully some of you "ex-Christians" will humble yourselves, abandon the flesh, and return to your God.

Dave8 said...

Anonymous: "But thankfully some of you "ex-Christians" will humble yourselves, abandon the flesh, and return to your God. "

I'll let you know, when my skin falls off, and I have truly "abandoned"... is that like saying, "I was scared out of my skin?"... and return to my god, we were never introduced, so, there obviously will be no "reunion" anytime soon... perhaps, you can introduce your god that is unknowable to "me" for the first time... oh, and if your god has a jealous personality, let me know, I don't want to be eternally tortured based on his lack of security... thanks...

Dano said...

Anonymous,
You quoted me:
"......oh, and before some evangelical nut reads this and says I'm gonna go to hell, let me add that I think that if God follows this site and reads everything we post, he must spend a lot of the time rolling on the floor, laughing his ass off!"

Anonymous said:
"Why can't 'ex-Christians and the like ever say something original instead of just quoting Depeche Mode and each other"

The quote in your post above WAS original, (mine), whereas your blog name (Anonymous) in your post wasn't.

What the fuck does, abandon the flesh, mean? Sounds like something from the Bible! What does, return to your God mean? Sounds like one of those meaningless Christian clich├ęs. You, nor anyone else knows what God is!

Your: "The truth is, there is truth and some people will simply miss it," describes yourself to a tee.

There are people on this site who say ORIGINAL, logical, intelligent things, worth quoting, but so far you are not one of them!
Dano

P. S. You used the name of a "Rock Band," incorrectly, to describe a manner of quoting. (original, but stupid)

Jim Arvo said...

Mr. Anonymous,

It's really painfully simple... You don't need to invoke any nonsense about being "self-caused". As always, I shall speak for myself, but I'm sure most will agree. Here it is:

I do not believe in your god for the simple reason that I've seen NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE FOR HIS EXISTENCE.

It's never ceases to amaze me how difficult that concept seems to be for religionists. It's just the same (I presume) for you and Zeus. You probably don't believe in Zeus because you've NO REASON to; there is no evidence or reasoning that has ever compelled you to believe in him, hence you do not. No metaphysical nonsense was necessary for you to reach that position, and clearly no *proof* of *non-existence* was needed either.

Does that make sense to you?

Jim Arvo said...

Ooops, I seem to have replied to a post by "Mr. Anonymous" from a different thread. Somewhere, Mr. Anonymous posed a straw man argument for rejecting belief in god (something involving the impossibility of a self-created being, or something along those lines), and asked for an atheist to comment. I commented above (apparently in the wrong thread), but I can no longer find the original post by Mr. Anonymous. Does anybody know where that is? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Greetings from Mr. Anonymous. It is indeed ridiculous to say God is a self-caused being. I believe He is uncaused. A self-caused being is impossible, but an uncaused being is not. Of course, the atheist may argue that it's also irrational to argue that God is uncaused. An atheist would probably assert that it is reasonable to ask, "who made God?"
To quote an atheist: "If everything must have a cause, then God must have had a cause. If God had a cause, then He was not the first (or uncaused) cause. If God did not have a cause, then not everything must have a cause. If not everything needs a cause, then perhaps the universe is one of those things which also does not need a cause."
Again, I don't believe that God is self-caused. That's absurd. I believe He's uncaused. Also, I don't believe that everything must have a cause, but only that every effect must have a cause. An atheist might say, "everything has a cause." I say, "everything that begins has a cause." I believe that God is an uncreated (uncaused) Creator (cause).
If it's irrational to believe that God, who has no beginning, needs no cause, then atheism is also irrational. You see, many atheists believe that the universe
needs no cause, because it had no beginning. Unless an atheist calls the "big bang" the beginning.
The real question becomes, "what is eternal. God, or the universe?" If is is rational to believe that the universe could be eternal without a cause, then there can be no real argument against theists who insist that God is an eternal Being without cause. If it is irrational to accept this about God, then its is also irrational to accept the same idea about the universe. In other words, the objection cuts both ways.
Take care, and have a nice day.

Dano said...

Is Anonymous, synonymous with Mr. Anonymous or is Mr. Anonymous autonomous?

The whole thing is making me abdomamous!

Merry synonymous to all and to all of the Anonymous's keep up the good fight!

You too, Dave, and Dave, and Carol, and Jim, and Jim, and John and freeman, and South, and Kevin Forever and ever, and Mutt Mutt, and all of us who are not able to hang on to that great security blanket in the sky any more, and just have to wing it with rational thought.

Oh! and I certainly didn't mean to exclude, Jezebel_in_a_Red_Teddy!

Forever and ever said...

Thanks Dano
Me old china plate.
Thats Austra alien for M8.
Fairdink'm cobber.Check ya in the forums.
I'm of to fill me tucker bag with another jumbuck.

Struth the christian sheep are hard to tame.

Yet they will come a waltzing matilda with me.

Anonymous said...

Greetings and farewell from Mr. Anonymous. I tried to leave a comment, but when I pressed "login and publish", it didn't "publish" on this site. This is at least the second time this has happened to me. So I guess I'll leave my atheist friends with this thought. "Praise God that matter became intelligent enough to deny that the universe is governed by intelligence."
I must admit, your "faith" is much greater than mine.
Take care.

Don B said...

Greetings , Mr. Anonymous. God can be uncaused (you say this to support you belief in god) but the universe can’t be an uncaused cause. Humm. You are merely adding a layer of complexity that is not indicated. Furthermore, where is your proof that god is eternal but the universe is not? There is no proof of this. Making the statement doesn’t make it so. You like to talk about theories that scientists (and or atheists) propose. Your, suggestion does not even rise to the level of theory as you have no evidence. Belief, no matter by what percentage of the population, is not a substitute for evidence. Your best effort is made by saying ‘it’s magic.’

Peer reviewed scientific evidence is what I look for. Almost no reputable scientist believes as you do. From what you say, you are still hiding every time it thunders because god is angry.

Anonymous said...

Our God is an awesome God..he reigns in heaven above with wisdom, peace and love..Our God is an Awesome God

anonymouse said...

The god that you imagine in your mind may be awesome. But there is no real god to see.

Just Rick said...

Some cowardly anon person said : <"Our God is an awesome God..he reigns in heaven above with wisdom, peace and love..Our God is an Awesome God"

Nice. This sounds like a chant for a cult. Say something over and over till your own brain begins to fuzz and it all makes sense to you.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if there is a god or creator or not. But I know for a fact that there is no christian god, muslam god, or any other sort of god as described by man made books. Open your eyes and you will see this for yourself.

Gerard said...

Just commenting to say that I think your website is okay but it's still insulting all the people who do believe. I personally don't believe in all the stories but I find that in times where I need someone, it helps me to believe in God. It gives me hope. It's fine if you don't believe but you don't need to go to extreme lengths just to prove your position. I know I don't start preaching to anyone who's an atheist. Similarly, why do you need to try and change other people's views?

Anyway, other than that, you've got an okay site. I guess if someone was looking for this kind of information, this would be the place.

Just Rick said...

gerald said : "It's fine if you don't believe but you don't need to go to extreme lengths just to prove your position. I know I don't start preaching to anyone who's an atheist. Similarly, why do you need to try and change other people's views?"

Gerald, I'd be fine and dandy with anyone who had a belief in something that I differed in or didn't believe in at all. The problem here is that these people are taking something that they believe and are trying to make the rest of us live by their beliefs.

Do not kid yourself, it is exactly what is happening. All thru history you find examples where religion has been used as a method to control, take from, and command anyone around them. Their methods appear docile and moral on the outside, but when left unchecked it often leads to violence and bloodshed. There is no place, no nation, and no race that does not have a history of violence involving religion.

People of religion would have you beleive that they are doing nothing to anyone, simply trying to spread the word. No harm no foul. But this is simply not true. From government to education to our daily lives, religious dogma and influence effect our world. It is something that has been saturated into our society so far that people really do not want to even contemplate giving it up.

Religion is a tool to control. People are inundated with the dogma for so long they simply cannot see that. People need a comfort zone, and for many it is the belief in something after life. I only wish these people would really look at what they THINK they are supporting. If they would only dig deeper and ask questions. I wager none of them take a bank loan or morgage without digging for all the answers first. Why is it they accept something as obviously false as religion? Because they want to and turn a blind eye.

But I digress. Fundies do not go follow the ideal of "live and let live". If this were true then why do they wage ware against homosexuals, athiests, science, other religions, and people who differ from them? They try and seed themselves into every aspect of life then cry foul when people try and stand against them.

It would be great if they went about their lives and didnt worry themselves over mine. But it doesnt work that way.

Honestly, take a look at this site. No one can refute the information here :
http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

At best all they can do is stick their fingers in their ears and say "la la la la la".

.:webmaster:. said...

It's fine if you don't believe but you don't need to go to extreme lengths just to prove your position.

Do you think that if I entered a church I would hear preaching?

You entered this website, and if you're reading some things you consider preachy, well - duh.

It's not "extreme lengths." It's just a website - a website aimed at those leaving Christianity.

Unfortunately, fundies can't resist dropping by and being offended. Personally, being told I am a vile sinner offends me, but that doesn't stop Christians from saying it over and over. If the site offends you, click off.

Felden said...

Hi to all of you!
First of all: Thank you for this website. I used to believe in god but now i don't anymore, because there is no logical reason for me to do so. On the
other hand I can understand people who really think they got the truth. If I thought I did I would also want people to know it. Well, anyhow. My comment on Science vs. Creator is that Science can't be perfect yet, because it was opressed by christians for such a long time. christians had over 5000 years to find arguments for their believings. Science has been liberal for much less time. It cannot prove that there is no god, so far. But it can already proof,that the stuff written in the bible cannot be (literally) true and that god ( if there is one) is not the one described in the bible. Just give science a bit of time please, christians.
Oh, by the way: Values come from experience. Almost every kid touched a hot oven or sth else hot just to know how it is. Afterwards they didn't do it again, unless they were mentally ill. They had concluded: it hurts don't do it again. Thats called experience. Also people experienced that it hurts to lose someone you lose especially if someone else has killed the person. so they concluded: don't kill, it will only cause trouble. You can use this position of looking at it for many things in the bible. The first commandment by the way is only a smart way to make EVERYBODY do the other nine laws. Noone would react to laws made by a mortal person, but if you threat with some unprovable place called "scheol" you will make people do what you think is good. All I am saying: The bible has very good aspects, but it's a law book written by smart people and not by people inspired by god. And also today we can totally tell, that those people didn't know so mcuh about science as we do today.
Anyways, have a nice one!
Take it easy, Felden

davpar1 said...

To paraphrase one of my favorite lines in a movie...
95% of the worlds population believes in a god of some sort, while 5% believe we are suffering from some sort of mass hallucination(Matt M. Contact)

Here's an interesting question for all you evolutionists out there...
A key ingredient to the theory of evolution is the survival of the fittest, no?
If I choose to murder my neighbor, would this in fact not be murder, but me excersing my ability to survive better than him?
Morality and the moral code should have no place in the theory of evolution, if our chief goal in life is strictly survival.
While you folks would like me to justify my choice to believe in God and his son, I challenge you to give me a coherent explanation as to how your beliefs make this life easier and more fulfilling.

The fool has said in his heart there is no God...(Psalm 14:1)

boomslang said...

......::yawn::......

Dear DavPar1 aka "Target Boy",

A few points to consider:

In the Dark Ages perhaps "95%", if not ALL, of the world's population believed that the earth was shaped like a frickin' pancake. So as we see, "Truth" isn't deduced from popular vote, is it?

Evolution: Evolution is both theory AND fact. Creationism is NEITHER. Your 'murder the neighbor' analogy is quite possibly the most assinine "argument" for creationism/divine morals I've ever read. 1) Modern man has evolved over time to become civilized, thus, most of us have become "intelligent". Please don't compare modern man to a bacteria. Thanks. 2) If you're trying to tell us that there's an objective set of divine morals, you might want to research all of the Christians denominations to date, and when you do, you'll see that NONE of them fully agree on what's "right" and what's "wrong"....they disagree on everything from abortion, to birth control, to the death penalty.


Meaning of life: The meaning of life is up to the individual. Furthermore, the fact that it ends GIVES it more meaning, not less. Your dog isn't going to live forever, does it's life have no meaning?.....maybe you should just kill it, huh?.

Additionally, existing in the clouds for eternity would serve zero purpose, and would eventually become torture...i.e..."Hell"....::wink:: Also, if you're telling us that the reason you believe in the Christian God and his son is because it makes your life "easier", you're not telling us anything we didn't already know.

davpar1 said...

It always amuses me that those who purport to “know the truth” are those who are most violently opposed to opposing views. Evolution on the surface seems to be a reasonable explanation for our exsistance on this planet. However, contrary to your opinion, evolution is still a 'theory' and is not “fact”. Your argument that man once believed the earth was “shaped like a frickin pancake” and that truth is somehow shaped by popular vote is an interesting concept, but not quite true. “Truth” through the ages has been shaped by mans desire to expand his understanding of the universe. While man at one time did believe the earth was flat, the truth was eventually established through research, discussion, reason, disagreement and understanding.
Your argument regarding civility is interesting because it brings to mind many questions, not the least of which is what is civililization? Will this generation be deemed uncivilized by the generations to come? "Every age is modern to those who are living in it." Justice Benjamin Cardoza While we may consider ourselves to be the most enlightened of our predecessors, we are child like in our true understanding of our world if you compare us to the generations to come.
You talk about facts as if somehow you have all of the answers. Let me propose to you this: Lets assume for the sake of this discussion you know 50% of all the knowledge there is in the world. Further to that, lets also assume that between now and the day you lie on your death bed you learn a further 25% of all knowledge available to man. Is it not possible that in the 25% you did not learn, that God could exsist?
It is important to note that my belief system is my Choice. I personally believe in Jesus Christ and an almighty God for one reason alone, I have personally witnessed and experienced in a very real way their exsistance.
You may choose to disbelieve if you like, but you will never convince me my experiences were not real.
Remember you have more to lose than I do. If I'm wrong and your right, I've only lost my time here on this earth in an errant belief. If your wrong and I'm right, youve lost your choice to eternal life.

Jim Arvo said...

davpar1 said "It always amuses me that those who purport to “know the truth” are those who are most violently opposed to opposing views."

I'd have to agree with that. Around here, that attitude is exhibited almost daily by the Christian visitors who come to proselytize, not to discuss.

davpar1: "Evolution on the surface seems to be a reasonable explanation for our exsistance on this planet."

I find that the more one learns about it, the more solid it becomes. For example, the evidence at the level of molecular biology is quite astonishing.

davpar1:"However, contrary to your opinion, evolution is still a 'theory' and is not “fact”."

Be careful with those words "theory" and "fact". Contrary to popular opinion, "theory" does not connote tentativeness; at least no more so than anything else in science, where everything is technically provisional. Also, the word "fact" in the context of evolution (as in the phrase "the fact of evolution") does not connote absolute certainty. Rather, "fact" refers to observable evidence (direct or indirect) and/or the conclusions that follow directly from those observations. (Again, everything is provisional.) Hence, the "fact of evolution" refers to the observation that evolution has occurred (as supported by the geological column, among other things), sans any explanation as to how it occurred. The "theory" part supplements the "fact" by supplying a testable idea about the "how".

davpar1:"...Will this generation be deemed uncivilized by the generations to come?..."

I think there is little doubt; not in an absolute sense, but relative the future notions of civility, we will surely be thought to be somewhat "primitive". Here is one example. I am virtually certain that 100 years from now people will look back on this period and shake their heads over the blatant bigotry that society shows toward homosexuals. I am also relatively certain that our penchant for warfare will be seen as barbaric, and our casual acceptance of casualties among soldiers will be seen as strangely myopic. I'm sure you could think of some norms that are likely to change as well. What do you conclude from that?

davpar1:"...Is it not possible that in the 25% you did not learn, that God could exsist?"

Of course. What was the point of all the percentages? You don't need any of that to see that NO empirical statement can be known with absolute certainty; particularly negative ones (e.g. no pink unicorns exist anywhere in the universe), and especially those that involve metaphysical entities (e.g. Zeus does/does not exist). What seems to be at issue is whether there are GOOD REASONS to believe a given proposition; focusing on the lack of a definitive disproof is a red herring.

davpar1: "It is important to note that my belief system is my Choice."

Yes, of course it is. As are ours.

davpar1: "I personally believe in Jesus Christ and an almighty God for one reason alone, I have personally witnessed and experienced in a very real way their exsistance."

Well, I'm sure you know that that kind of statement will not sway anybody here. A good many of the regulars here have "experienced" god/Jesus too, only to realize later that they were deceiving themselves, as hundreds of millions of people do daily with respect to various deities. I've heard countless stories of how god supposedly revealed himself in the affairs of people, but in every case there seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking and truly awful statistical reasoning behind them. Thus, I take them with a small grain of salt.

davpar1: "Remember you have more to lose than I do. If I'm wrong and your right, I've only lost my time here on this earth in an errant belief."

That is simply a variant of Pascal's wager, and it is a fallacy. You neglect to take account of all the possibilities. More on that below.

davpar1:"If your wrong and I'm right, youve lost your choice to eternal life."

Similarly, if you are wrong about the one true god taking human form, and you've blasphemed Allah, you will spend eternity in the Islamic Hell. Then again, maybe the one true god will only save those who had the wisdom to discard any belief system that condones the type of ghastly violence found in the Old Testament. Or, maybe only those whose underwear is festooned with astrological signs will be saved. The point is, one could invent any number of such scenarios; however, without some credible backing, there is no reason to believe a single one of them. Simply hedging you bet by believing the one with the most sever punishment for heresy is specious.

boomSLANG said...

Davpar1---

I don't, in fact, claim to know all the answers to life's greatest questions. So lose the strawman. In regards to God---whether it be the Abrahamic, Egyptian, Islamic, Martian, etc, etc---I merely hold a positon of neutrality....meaning, when He/She/It/ make their presence known to me through the physical senses---the same senses I use to deduce that anything ELSE exists--- THEN I will have the undeniable and necessary evidence to have a belief in such a being. However, until that time, I won't suspend logic and reason in lieu of blind faith.....or, a "feeling".

If you say you've "witnessed their existance"?...then peachy, but your personal experience isn't, and will never be, OBJECTIVE evidence for all of mankind. Accordingly, whether you believe your personal experiences with God, Santa, or whoever, are real or not, is immaterial to me. What does puzzle me is how people can use logic and common sense to discount the existance 500 "other gods", but when it comes to their own irrational beliefs, that same "sense" is out the window.

I'm sorry, but ALL religious belief is subjective. And what you have is a conviction---and convictions are the end of knowledge. So, evolution is "not fact", eh?...okay, so talking reptiles, donkeys, and vegetation is what?... a theory?....a fact?....a side show at the carnival, maybe?

And please, Pascal's Wager?..."what if I'm right and you're wrong"?...the oldest Christian sound bite on the internet. All it does is on your part is point out the fact that you do not have the evidence to support your claim. You need some new material.

Curious George said...

Until there are absolute natural/biological and environmental/behavioral standards established, every civilization will have members who believe humanity has either progressed or regressed from a previous era.

Jim Arvo said...

Looking back further in this thread, I see I missed some gems. Here's one...

davpar1 said "...A key ingredient to the theory of evolution is the survival of the fittest, no?
If I choose to murder my neighbor, would this in fact not be murder, but me excersing my ability to survive better than him?"

What *you* as an individual choose to do has little or no bearing on the allele frequencies of the population (i.e. the genetic makeup of the population). Survival strategies that are linked to specific alleles cause a drift in those alleles; that is what evolution is. Moreover, it's absurd to use this principle as a justification for some action as the principle is descriptive, not normative (i.e. it speaks to what *is*, not to what *ought* to be). Here's a loose analogy: Newton's universal law of gravity nicely describes what happens when I drop an object from a high building. It's a descriptive law. Does it then imply that I have an obligation to toss people from tall buildings? That would be absurd, right? Right.

davpar1 also said "Morality and the moral code should have no place in the theory of evolution, if our chief goal in life is strictly survival."

Moral codes are normative; the theory of evolution is descriptive. So, right, the theory does not speak (directly) to what we establish as our codes of conduct. However, there *is* an important connection in that social norms have a biological basis. That is, our laws do not arise from nothing; there is usually a deep resonance with fundamental behaviors that have been shaped by evolution. For example, all societies discourage, murder, mayhem, theft, incest, etc. (while granting various exceptions, of course). We could get into the biological basis of these things, but that is a fairly long discussion.

davpar1 concluded with this challenge: "While you folks would like me to justify my choice to believe in God and his son, I challenge you to give me a coherent explanation as to how your beliefs make this life easier and more fulfilling."

First, you seem to have your priorities a bit confused. The issue here is what is TRUE, not what is easiest or what makes us feel the best. Maybe it makes life easy and fulfilling for me to believe that Krishna is the one true god. I think we can all agree that that's generally not the best reason to adopt a belief.

Next, it has been my observation that the more completely and objectively we understand ourselves and the physical world around us, the better off we are in terms of creating a just and sustainable society. Great advances come from understanding the true nature of biological organisms (e.g. via medicine, psychology, and ultimately jurisprudence), while only superficial and transient "feel-good" kinds of benefits come from religious mythology. Proclaiming that "god did it", then inventing, embellishing, and reaffirming tall stories about this being can serve some immediate societal needs, but it cannot compare to the benefits of actual understanding.

Anonymous said...

All of these should not be happening if god created things as they are in 6 days. What is the pupose of change?

God created the world perfect but then Adam and Eve sinned this brought sin and imperfection into the world "the fall of man" after that the world changed this isnt the same world God created it has always been changeing He didnt just make it and say this is how it is and this is how it always will be the world is and always will be changing
what is the purpose of change to make us grow to make us become stronger
and i know someone will reply to this telling me im stupid and dont know what im talking about but it makes me sad to think that u feel so obligated to tell the world that all christians are stupid for believing the bible and in God it sounds like u met every type of christian there is and know everything there is to know oops know everything u want to know about christianity i hope u realize that not every one who says their a christian is a christian and not everything that was done in the name of christianity was true christianity so dont try to group all christians into one category and say they all believe the same thing there are a lot of people out there who say their christians but dont follow the bible but then again u guys dont believe in the bible so u know what just ignore what i said as some close minded person who doesnt know anything

madamehel said...

Or at least doesn't know how to spell.

south2003 said...

“.. but it makes me sad to think that u feel so obligated to tell the world that all christians are stupid for believing the bible and in God”

Tell the world? Do you see us going from door to door or building mega churches to preach or handing out tracks on the street corners or breathing down strangers’ backs telling them about gawd? NO!

“it sounds like u met every type of christian there is and know everything there is to know oops know everything u want to know about Christianity i hope u realize that not every one who says their a christian is a christian and not everything that was done in the name of christianity was true christianity so dont try to group all christians into one category and say ......yada yada yada

Then you must me – the True Christian ™. Hey guys, we found what we’ve been looking for.

“...but then again u guys dont believe in the bible so u know what just ignore what i said as some close minded person who doesnt know anything”

Let us see if you know “anything”:

What should a woman’s punishment be if she is raped and didn’t scream loud enough?
Which is the 10th commandment?
What did Moses do with the virgins?
If one desires to be the disciple of Jesus, what should he/she do?
Why would a loving Jesus declare that he would kill innocent children?
Why would an all loving God discriminate against the handicapped?

Answer YES or NO

Would God kill or order the killing of innocent children?
Would God order people to dash infants against rocks and floors?
Would God make parents eat the flesh of their children?
Would God order pregnant women to be ripped open?
Would God kill 70,000 people to punish one man?
Would God order his followers to kill each other?
Would God approve of a vow to kill one’s own daughter?
Would God make people eat feces?!
Would God order the mass execution of unarmed captives?

cdmon said...

anonymous said: "God created the world perfect but then Adam and Eve sinned this brought sin and imperfection into the world."

Uh... NO! You bible states that god had a plan that he made from the foundations of the world. If Adam and Eve would not have "transgressed" then they would have thwarted his will. So therefore they were impelled to transgress. Where was freewill in that? They did exactly what HIS plan expected of them. No downfall of man, No need to send his son.

So this alleged fall of mankind was planned and preordained, How could Adam and Eve had done any different? What choice did they have other than to act out that way as a pawn in a game that the alleged creator of all, including both good and evil, was playing? Adam and Even obviously were never really in control to begin with. So in effect it was god who brought sin into the world by setting up a proverbial stumbling block for Adam and Eve. He set up the fall, they fell. Let's at least get the logic behind the absurdity of this story straight.

anonymous said: "i know someone will reply to this telling me im stupid and dont know what im talking about."

Your own words do a good job of that, you really don't need our help there.

anonymous said: "it makes me sad to think that u feel so obligated to tell the world that all christians are stupid for believing the bible and in God"

It makes us feel mad to think you feel oblgated to tell the world that we are closed minded people who don't know anything.

It is you who group us all together, and you really have no idea what any of us believe, do you?

You feel that we are miserable lost souls who know nothing of your religion, when in fact there are people hear from practically every denomination and brand of xianity there is. I've been to many different churches of many different denominations. That's not the problem. The problem is the buy bull you believe in is chocked full of discrepancies, no matter how you slice it. If it gives two different accounts of the same event, then by default at least one version must be wrong. If one bit of it is wrong then what can we say for the whole buy bull?

We used to believe just like you until we woke up and realized it is all just one big lie. While we are no longer caught up in that lie, you are here trying to feed us that lie again, and we're so not buying into to it. So please go shed your crocodile tears for someone else.

Unless you can produce the nazz himself, and he makes a personal appearance, you've got a better chance of being struck by lightning than you do of saving any of us. After all aniny, you can't even save yourself, can you?

Cheers

Anonymous said...

thanx guys u proved my point

Anita_kat said...

wow, amazing how bitter some of you people are. really, i kinda feel sorry for you.

Well, I guess Somday we will all know the Truth as to the meaning of life, or lack there of. so if You people are so determined to believe in nothing, then nothing I say will change that. *sigh*

and south2003 as for your "Yes/no." question, my answer for all of those is no. no not my God, maybe somone elses, but not mine.

some of you may think it folish of my to be a christian and since that definiton has become very vague i will define it as somone who believes in jesus. that believes he is the son of God and he did do all he said. I do not however Believe this just on faith, or from what other people tell me, altho that is a big part of it. but i aslo believe it because of the miricles I've seen, that science can not explain. I've seen people that i know lay there hands on others and they are healed, and not just under the surface healing but identable visible healing. Ex. somone with legs diferent lengths suddenly have one grow longer to match the other. I've seen people deliverd from demons in front of my eyes, (and it's nothing like the movies)

I can tell you that these people were not "acting" or faking, as i knew some of them personally. however, those are my stories, not yours, so for all you know im just making them up. altho I swear that im not. so I chalange you, see if there is any truth to my words. if not, you lost nothing, if there is, you could lose everything.

now as i have not perposly attacked anyone, only told how i feel. I ask that you will be kinda enough to do the same.

thank you and God Bless

Curious Lemur said...

Anonymous 1/31/2006 1:59 AM: "He didnt just make it and say this is how it is and this is how it always will be the world is and always will be changing
what is the purpose of change to make us grow to make us become stronger..."

Uh, hate to ask the question, but what are we supposed to be growing into, and what makes us weak. If you suggest sin makes us weak, then you have to define sin, but then, sin changes also, depending on who you ask, and what religion. To become more than what someone says they are; suggests there is some 'greater' paradigm of what we should be. So, are you going to tell us what humanity is supposed to be striving to become and how that striving makes one stronger.

To simplify, I don't think we need an example of a monkey doing push-ups. Start with how someone grows stronger 'spiritually', by defining what a spirit is, and how one knows a weak spirit from a nice strong spirit. Oh, and don't use physical terms to describe spirit, as those would be physical attributes, not spiritual.

Jed said...

anita_kat, If you believe that the bible is the absolute word of God, then you will be interested in reading this verse in your Bible, as follows:

Isaiah Ch. 45 VS 21 "I am the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and Savior; there is none beside me.

22. "Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and none else."

This is the reason that the Jews do not believe in Jesus, God's chosen people, but you insist in believing in Jesus.

The story of Jesus is a fabrication embellished and faked by Paul to impress his Jewish friends.

The story of Jesus has taken the focus away from the OT God, sending millions of Jesus believers into hell, along with the muslims.

Anita you're worshipping a False Idol called, Jesus, and you're destined straight into hell, renounce Jesus now before it's too late.

I pray that it's not too late, at least I tried, my hands are washed clean if you do not reject Jesus, the false God soul snatcher.

cdmon said...

aniny said: "thanx guys u proved my point"

That's funny, we disagree with you, and by that we proved your point? Your statements are so completely asinine, that you've proven the exact opposite. Thank YOU!!

anita_kat said: "Well, I guess Somday we will all know the Truth as to the meaning of life."

Yes, and won't you be utterly disappointed.

The answer to the meaning of life is.... are you ready for this?
Okay here it is... the answer to the meaning of life is 42. Now you have to figure out just what the question is.

anita_kat said: "and south2003 as for your "Yes/no." question, my answer for all of those is no. no not my God, maybe somone elses, but not mine."

Anita, your answer begs two questions...
1. Do you believe that the bible is god's word?
2. If so, have you ever bothered to pick it up and actually read it?

South2k3 has mentioned several well known biblical events. If you are a xian, you should know that according to your bible, these are things your xian god did do. If you are not aware of these things I would advise you to go back and read your bible thoroughly.

Imagine that, an ex-xian telling a xian to read your bible.

You know, after you've done that, come back and we'll compare notes once again. Then we'll ask you those same questions, and perhaps you'll come back with a far different answer. Perhaps you might even understand why we are ex-xian.

anita_kat: "i aslo believe it because of the miricles I've seen, that science can not explain. I've seen people that i know lay there hands on others and they are healed, and not just under the surface healing but identable visible healing. Ex. somone with legs diferent lengths suddenly have one grow longer to match the other. I've seen people deliverd from demons in front of my eyes, (and it's nothing like the movies)"

Anita, the human brain and body is a very complex thing. It is very capable of healing itself. For an example, say you get a cut on your finger. After while it closes up and goes away, viola, you are healed.

The human body has that capability built into it other wise if we get cut we'd just bleed to death.

I really understand how much you want to believe in your god, and "divine healing." I used to be pentecostal so I really do know and understand exactly where you are coming from.

The mind is an interpretive machine. That is why no two people witnessing the same events will have the same accounts of it.

The thing with the two legs, one shorter that the other is nothing more than common parlor trickery. I've seen it done numerous times.

And the casting out off demons, seen that too, if fact, I've done it. It is all psychological. It's been proven scientifically to be a farce, and I'll be the first to admit, at one time I too was taken in by it.

This is still no basis to believe in something you've never even bothered to read for yourself.

anita_kat: "I can tell you that these people were not "acting" or faking, as i knew some of them personally. however, those are my stories, not yours."

We only hear about prayers that were allegedly answered. If what you are saying is absolutely true, then I must ask you, do you know any physically handicapped people?
If so do they attend your church?
And again if so, why are they still handicapped?

With all these supposed healings going on, we'd never need doctors or hospitals, would we? By now the church would have put them completely out of business, wouldn't they? Since that is obviously not the case, that definitely calls these healings into question.

Does god pick and choose who will get healed and who doesn't? What about amputees? How many amputees have you yourself seen grow a new arm or leg? Why that's not impossible for god is it?

anita_kat said: "so I chalange you, see if there is any truth to my words. if not, you lost nothing, if there is, you could lose everything."

Anita that is called Pascal's wager. Since you are not even partially aware of what your bible says, I must call your challenge exactly this... You are mimicking words that you have heard over and over again. You only know what you've heard from your preacher, and he only knows what he has heard and so on and so forth. So that which you call truth has only been acquired second hand and is nothing more than heresay.

So now it's my turn, Anita I challenge you to write down all the things south2k3 mentioned, and look them up in your bible. I assure you, you will find them there. And when you return to this site, please explain to us just exactly what god WAS doing. And then tell us, No, not your god!!

I'll even make it easy for you, here is a link to an online bible that spells out many of these things south2k3 spoke of. If you have problems with it, you can cross reference the scriptures with your own kjv or whatever version you have in your bookshelf gathering dust.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I hope I wasn't too mean, and I don't recall any personal attacks directed toward you in my post.

Cheers

Melissa said...

Anita kat said:"wow, amazing how bitter some of you people are. really, i kinda feel sorry for you."

Wow, how amazingly typical of you Anita kat to use one of THE most worn out christian accusations we commonly hear! They are always based on christian condemnation and rash judgment!

Of course, what else should we expect. Way to be another example of how the christian faith leads people to be haters and bigots.

You know nothing about the people here and you will never know just how great the people in here really are, simply because we do not conform to your beliefs.

THEN...
Anita Kat said:"now as i have not perposly attacked anyone, only told how i feel. I ask that you will be kinda enough to do the same."

KIND ENOUGH... to do the same?
Coming from the same person that also just said this;

Anita Kat said:""wow, amazing how bitter some of you people are. really, i kinda feel sorry for
you."

Do not feel sorry for us, Mrs.Condescending Christian Snob.
Check your self righteous attitude at the door next time and deposit your bad comments in the suggestion box.

Won't you be kind enough to refrain from using the same old tired christian reproach.

God-less everyone!

Dano said...

Melissa,
You really should open a school dedicated to saving "air head girls," from what they learned from their Moms.

You could start a whole new movement of women who are not afraid to be thinking, rational, un- superstitious, and real.
Dan

Jim Arvo said...

Anita_kat gave a wonderful example of a "miracle" that she herself witnessed. She said "Ex. somone with legs diferent lengths suddenly have one grow longer to match the other."

How funny. I do this kind of thing with kids all the time (usually with my arms). It goes over especially well with kids five and under--but even the five-year-olds generally catch on immediately. In fact, I get a kick out of seeing kids that young exhibit skepticism, and insist on checking it out multiple times for themselves and performing little "experiments". I see it as the seeds of genuine critical thinking. Unfortunately, there are always a few who simply accept things at face value, never questioning. Need I say more?

Anita also played the "bitter" card. Is anybody keeping track of how often Christian visitors use this gambit? Anita went on to say that she was attacking nobody (yet she pities us, apparently for being so "bitter").

Okay, I have a deal for you, Anita. If you actually return, and you manage to reply without sneaking in any crass assertions (e.g. remarks about us being angry or bitter), then I'll be happy to do the same. In fact, I'm sure I will not be the only one. How about it?

Melissa said...

That would be a dream comes true! A U.S. public school that actually tells the truth about our nation’s untold history, along with a good dose of reason and critical thought, it is the very thing this dogma-dumb country is desperately in need of.

The school could be called Nature of Change Academy (or something like that, but words of Dave8 came to mind first) and the myths of the world’s religions would be examined as naive superstition, while at the same time we would provide an alternative source for core motivation by volunteering one day a week to hands on learning assignments that ultimately help improve humanity and/or nature.

Could we use the original Pledge of Allegiance, without the “in gawd” part?
Is there a law that states all schools must use the current “dogmafied” version?

My husband is a teacher and there most certainly is a need for a "reality" based school every where in America, but especially here in the Cincinnati area where Catholic schools rein supreme and Christian academies are for the most part, exclusively attended by the children of the privileged and wealthy.

Oh well, it was a nice thought while it lasted Dano.
Thanks for the lovely compliments.

G’ Day mate!

Anonymous said...

I stumbled upon this site and found it to be interesting. I noticed one thing, in all the conversations I've read, it's always been the Christian defending their beliefs. So I have one simple question for you: You say there is no God, prove it.

Ted said...

OK, There is no God! Thats all the proof any intelligent person will ever need.

J.T. Finally Free said...

Hey Anonymous, I think what this website does is show people that Christianity is fraudulent and very misleading. I encourage you to sit down and read the thousands and thousands of testimonys of former christians who have basically come to their senses. Is there a God??? Wow what a great question. You know what I don't claim to have all the answers like I used to in my former life as know it all Robot Brainwashed Christian. There may be something out there (aliens, grays, satan, etc). I just think most of us exchristians in here have come to the conclusion that it's not the jealous tyranical God of the bible. Do we have all the answers?? NO!! Do we claim to? NO!! We just know its not that crazy being described in the bible. Hope this helps!!!

cdmon said...

Anonymous said: "So I have one simple question for you: You say there is no God, prove it."

I have a simple answer for you. We're not selling god. So the burden of proof is upon you to prove that she exists.

We're not making outlandish claims that god or santa or the easter bunny or the tooth fairy exists.

We're not selling talking snakes, or resurrected zombies, or anything outside of reality.

How about arranging a personal appearance with Jeezus? I'd like to meet him face to face. If you could do that then you've proven your point if not, please peddle it elsewhere...

Cheers

Dano said...

Anonymous wrote:
I stumbled upon this site and found it to be interesting. I noticed one thing, in all the conversations I've read, it's always been the Christian defending their beliefs. So I have one simple question for you: You say there is no God, prove it.
posted: 2/02/2006 12:40 AM EST  

You have all of the same things in common with every other Christian who has stumbled upon this site.
#1. You didn't read or understand the name of the site.
#2. You didn't read much, and what you did read, you blocked out of your brainwashed mind.
#3. You don't understand that if you don't believe something exists, you don't have to prove it.

Go back to the Christian sites and quit stumbling!
Dan

Dano said...

Melissa.
You said:
"and there most certainly is a need for a "reality" based school every where in America, but especially here in the Cincinnati area where Catholic schools rein supreme and Christian academies are for the most part, exclusively attended by the children of the privileged and wealthy."

You're lucky Melissa! Down here in "Baptist land," NC, if you tell people that you aren't a Christian, it is like telling them that you have AIDS, leprosy, and are possessed by demons.
Dan

God doesn't Exist said...

Anonymous 2/02/2006 12:40 AM: "I stumbled upon this site and found it to be interesting. I noticed one thing, in all the conversations I've read, it's always been the Christian defending their beliefs."

You are either ignorant or insincere by that comment. Christians show up to 'prove their point', whatever that point is, and in 'response' people state why they have a different perspective. So, there are multiple views on any one topic, however, it appears you are too lazy to read arguments against god, and you are attempting to play stump the chump so that you somehow feel better about your belief in a transcendent god.

Anonymous: "So I have one simple question for you: You say there is no God, prove it."

Okay, simpleton, I have a simple answer.

If god exists per christianity in a transcendent reality, then god can not be experienced in this physical reality, especially for those who don't believe 'god' is of this sinful world.

If god can't be experienced in this physical world with clarity, then god can't be 'recognized' in this world.

If god can't be recognized in this world by a person, and they pass away, then they have no standard baseline to recognize a god in a transcendent reality once they die.

Therefore, 'any' god said to exist in a transcendent reality, i.e., mainstream christianity, etc., doesn't 'exist' as they have no recognizable "understanding" of the god concept being discussed.

Now, is there something beyond your simpleton mind that may exist? Maybe. However, you can't say god exists, and I can say for a fact, that any transcendent god you say exists, in fact, doesn't. If you say that you could "guess" and possibly be correct, then your god was based on 'physical' knowledge you obtained while on this earth, and therefore, your "guessed" god is much less the deity, than the one most christianity seems to want to believe.

If you don't want to listen to logic and reason, you can just leave your opinions to yourself, no need embarassing yourself by responding, but, have a great delusional life, and please, by all means, don't open your ignorant pie hole in public when trying to sound intelligent, it really doesn't become you.

Anonymous said...

I'm only replying to this, because I actually think you want an honest and sincere answer.
" Define what a spirit is: without using physical terms "
I'm sorry but I'm going to have to use the Bible to answer this question, please be open minded, since I know you don't believe in the Bible.
1 Thes. 5:23 Humans have 3 parts: 1) physical body 2) soul 3) spirit
1 Cor 15:14
- there is a difference between your natural and spirit body
Our spirits have a form and correspond to our physical body ( other people believe this too, not just christians, ask someone who was involved in astral travel )
Rev 4:1-2
- shows an experience that shows a difference between ones physical and spiritual form
Heb 4:12
- there is a division between soul and spirit
- it is through our spirit we commune with God John 4:23-24
3 Area's of the spirit are:
- conscience
- intuition
- ability to communicate with God (ie/worship)
To grow spiritually simply means to grow in Christ, understanding, knowledge, and faith.
I'm not sure if that's what you meant by your question of "define spirit".

Nice Try! said...

Anonymous, what is the difference between thought and spirit? Do you have to think, in order to have a connection with ones' spirit? If not, then do pets who don't have higher order thinking skills like humans, have spirits? If people must have a level of cognitive awareness to perceive a 'spirit', then the 'spirit' is co-dependent on the 'mind', and does not exist without our cognitive processes. Therefore, a spirit, is obviously, a persons' cognitive thoughts based on their ability to cognitively process information.

Anonymous: "1 Thes. 5:23 Humans have 3 parts: 1) physical body 2) soul 3) spirit"

I asked you to define 'spirit', you in-turn provided the name "spirit" as its own proof. That's kind of like using the bible to prove itself. If I said pink elephants were flying around mars, and you asked for evidence, and I wrote my comment on a piece of paper, and gave it to you, would that be 'more' evidence, or would that just be more information coming from 'one' source - me, and expecting you to blindly accept my words as truth.

1 Cor 15:14
- there is a difference between your natural and spirit body
Our spirits have a form and correspond to our physical body ( other people believe this too, not just christians, ask someone who was involved in astral travel )

Now, you attempt to describe 'spirit' but do so, by saying it has a "form", that is, a "natural" form that we use to "picture" in our mind what a "spirit" may look like. However, I nor you, have ever seen a 'spirit', but you are describing it as if you are able to see it.

Regarding astral projection, are you suggesting there is a splitting of the "spirit" from the body and it goes whizzing around the planet as if it were someones' experience of flying in first person. Does that make sense, even christians don't believe for the most part, that a spirit can just up and leave the body, or the body would surely die. Well, unless people are going to believe that some people don't have 'spirits' and are able to live anyway.

I can see how some religiouns have taken the view that some people don't have 'spirits', like witches, etc., and thus, were to be murdered. Even though, no one can really 'see' a spirit, or prove a spirit does or doesn't exist. Murder, based on pure hypothetical reasoning.

Perhaps, astral projection as experienced by the individual is solely contained within the thought processes of ones' mind, with external environmental influences. Hence, nothing leaving the body, or nothing bouncing around the universe, just possibly, a deeper connection with ones' own conscious awareness, when attachment is discarded and one is subconsciously free to engage in mental construction.

Anonymous: "Rev 4:1-2
- shows an experience that shows a difference between ones physical and spiritual form"

Somehow, I think you failed to provide what the 'difference' was between ones' physical thoughts and a 'spirit'.

Anonymous: "Heb 4:12
- there is a division between soul and spirit
- it is through our spirit we commune with God John 4:23-24"

Okay, still a division, and no description, but even though you haven't been able to describe the essence of a soul/spirit you say that we use it to communicate with a god. Again, if one doesn't have a mind, do they have a spirit. If not, the worshipping god, is nothing short of worshipping ones' own personal cognitive voice.

Anonymous: "3 Area's of the spirit are:
- conscience
- intuition
- ability to communicate with God (ie/worship)"

So, you have not provided evidence for a 'spirit', only speculation. However, it hasn't stopped you from further claiming that the minds' conscience, our ability to intuitively think, and our internal cognitive voice are three separate entities. Again, take a persons' mind away, and there no longer exists conscience, there no longer exists intuition, and there no longer is the capability to communicate with anyone, to include a god(s). So, its apparent the 'mind' is the 'spirit', unless you can show evidence that the mind/thought is somehow separate from the "spirit". If not, then the spirit is subordinate/subject to the 'mind'.

If you respond that people don't have to be mentally alive to have a spirit, then, of course, I'd have to ask, why rocks don't have spirits, termites, ants, bacteria, etc. All organic non-thinking life, and inorganic 'complex' structures would then seem to have some 'spirit' association.

By the way, if you don't know how to definitively explain what a 'spirit' is, and how its different than this natural realm, then why would one go through all of the rituals of religion to 'save' it. Why do people worry about something they can't even define, describe or explain?

I don't think you want to engage in an in-depth conversation on economics, but, I'll throw out that 'fear' is a manipulation tool used early in a persons' life, but eventually, those who continue to attach themselves to this false economy of spiritual salvation, are doing so out of 'greed'. A greedy person is not going to let go of something they believe is 'due them' or 'owed' to them, and thus, they will continue to keep believing they will receive some reward for their effort.

Greed has been suggested to be part of our prime nature, however, some people finally see the destructive nature of greed, as typically, unnecessary attachment. I wonder what Tolkien's message was in the Lord of the Rings, when Smeagol continued to worship the ring of power. Some worship rings, some worship 'spirits', in either case, its greed based benefit.

boomSLANG said...

In regards to "define what a spirit is" Anon 12:05 AM said:

"I'm not sure if that's what you meant by your question of 'define spirit' ".

By the looks of things, I'd say no. But okay, since you, nor no other fundy can "define" spirit, maybe you tell the class in which part of the physical body the "spirit" resides. Oui? If you say the "brain" or "mind", please tell us in which part of the brain...because the brain is divided into several sections, or "lobes".

Anonymous said...

Are you tottaly obilivous? I doubt you understood the the bible let alone read it. How can you say Jesus believed in Demons when he in fact denoucned them. He did not preach violence either. Jesus did not come to kill but rather to save. Jesus preacheed love and hope to everyone. He did not denouce women. He infact embraced women. He was the first Womens rights supporter. In jesus's time,Women were not alowed to walk on the same sid eo fthe steet as men. They wernt allowed to speak to men unless it was their husband. If their husband was not satisfied he could divorce her and have her sold as a slave. (John 4:4-42) While Jesus was alone, a woman came to the well for water. It was not the usual time to go for water. She probably came then because she did not want to meet people. Later in the story we read that she had lived a bad life. She had been married to several men. Now she lived with a man who was not her husband. Perhaps nobody would talk to her. Jesus spoke to her. He asked the woman for a drink. It surprises us that she did not refuse him. It surprised her that a Jew would ask this. She told Jesus that she did not expect his request. Then, Jesus replied:

John 4:10: Jesus answered her, ‘You do not know the gift of God. You do not know who asks you for water. If you did, you could ask me. I would give you living water’.


And if God was a warrior god, Why then did he not allow abraham to kill his son after he proved his faith?





God saves...I hope you all find faith in him

boomSLANG said...

Anonym-ass Fundy 1:36 PM said:

"Are you tottaly oblivious? I doubt you understand the bible let alone read it."

Again, no one is saying that all Christians are stupid.... yet, by the looks of things, it appears that most ignorant people are religious.

Like, God is tottaly awesome, dude! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I was just browsing and all I have to say is that I am a Christian and I am so sorry that you have come across so many religious people who have been jerks. You may or may not believe this but I promise you that not everyone is like that. I have friends who are non-Christians and they love to come to my church not because they are interested in being a Christian, although I hope that they will be when and if they are ready, they simply like that environment. Everyone is friendly to them. I will not make this long and drawn out but from hearing what alot of you(no one in particular) are saying I just want to apologize on their behalf and I hope that they can figure it out that they are wrong if they tell anyone that if they don't believe something they are wrong. Once they have explained their views to a non-Christian it is up to them to decide what to do. Unfortunately not everyone is wise enough to know when to quit.

CBS said...

Eureka! Finally I have found a site that contains the truth my soul has been longing for. After reading all of the Christian posts I am convinced that Jesus is THE WAY. So if any of you would be so kind as to tell me how to become a real Christian and which church to join I will be eternally grateful.

Here are some of my choices (I want to stay in Washington state but if the Truth can’t be found here I will travel)
1. The Bible Church in Burien has this cool deal called Spiritual Dancing. You start the dance without a partner. The object is to dance until you have a "spiritual connection" with a person of the opposite sex. Then you enter into a spiritual communion with that person. It’s great! It doesn’t matter if the person (woman in my case, I’m a man) is married to someone else. The Spiritual Connection trumps the marital one. If I join this one I definitely want to work my way to the top. God has given several of the finest ladies to the pastor to be part of his private flock. Many of the elders have received Gods favor as well. It’s made a few of the husbands mad but it plainly states in THE HOLY BIBLE that this is an eternal principal that must be followed. I believe this one might be THE ONE because these folks know the book inside and out. Almost everything they say is followed by the book, chapter and verse it comes from.
2. Then there’s this other one that says it doesn’t matter what kind of life I live after I’ve been saved, I can’t loose my salvation. Nothing can separate me from god. I know for sure that I’ve been saved because I spoke in tongues at the very first meeting I attended. This is cool because I can’t seem to keep a job and I don’t have much money. I can find some convenience store owner who believes in a “false god” I can rob him and even take his young daughters if I want.
3. I was about to join other this one in Redmond because the pastor preaches through the bible every year. He’s a fire and brimstone preacher. I’m glad I’m not gay though because he says hell has a special place for unrepentant gays. Unfortunately, he got busted in Florida for soliciting sex in a men’s room. It was later revealed that he’s been “blessing” (the courts call it child abuse) young boys in the church for years. Even so, his soul is “white as snow” because it’s been washed in the blood of Christ. Halleluiah and Amen.
4. There’s another one that says that the fact that I’m white means I’m of a superior race, favored by god. I didn’t think that skin color made much difference since we all descended from Adam but they showed me the truth in black and white and red. I hear they have special meetings where they dress up like ghosts. That might be cool. The bible says they should kill darkies because of what their ancestors did.

There are a few others but maybe you can help me choose the right one from these four.

I’ve been asking god to tell me which one to join but I haven’t got a clear answer. I don’t want to get it wrong because “there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end leads to death.”

Thanks in advance, Confused But Saved

Anonymous said...

What a waste of time, intelligence, and bandwidth.

Anonymous said...

Dave. I'm sorry to inform you that the position of antichrist has been filled, but we'll keep your resume on file. (the retirement package wasn't much anyway)

Anonymous said...

Some of you have tried awfully hard not to admit that you think that Jews are just as foolish to believe the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) as are Christians. But why? Why do they get spared so that you can conduct your very own inquisition against Christians? It was Jews who wrote these books in the first place. Christianity is based on something of a Jewish foundation. So why the double-standard?

Why don't you admit that you're just as bigoted against Jews as you are against Christians? I know, I know, this web site is called "Ex-Christian.net," but if Christianity is disproven by simply reading the Bible, isn't Judaism as well?

Ben said...

OK Just to set the record straight.

All biblical texts and all religions, all of Christianity, Muslims, Jews, Jehovah Witness, Mormans, etc. beliefs in ghosts, spirits, angels, virgin births, miracles, visions, dreams, prophets, Saints, Popes, Preachers, blessings, grace, faith, prayer, oracles, Gods, Lords, Jesus, Satan, Allah, Mohammad, Heaven, Hell, Saved, Baptism, are all complete garbage, anmd a total fraud and a total hoax and scam.

Did I cover everything?

.:webmaster:. said...

From Dictionary.Com:

Bigot:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

Okay, so calling unbelievers bigots is ignorant. I could care less what other people believe, but I'm convinced that Christianity, and all religion in general, is bunk. However, I can speak authoritatively to Christianity, as I was a Christian for three decades. I was not a Muslim, or Jew, or part of any of the other several thousand available religions. This site is tolerant of all viewpoints. Not everyone on this site is an atheist, and not all agree on everything.

One thing we do agree on, however, is that Christianity is bunk. This is a website devoted to discussing this fact. We don't have swords, shields, or greaves.

I suggest you learn what words mean -- crusade, bigot -- before using them. Trying to incite someone with the wrong insult looses the effect that I imagine you were hoping to produce.

xrayman said...

Wow, I am so impressed by the intelligent minds, and responses. I came to this site a couple of weeks ago leaning towards non-belief, but not yet convinced. I've never been completely sold on religion, yet I always thought it must somehow be true because the vast majority of seemingly very intelligent people who believe.
After reading all the resposes to this "Dear Believer" thread over a peroid of a couple of days, the non-believers blew the Christians out of the water. The Christians have a lot of guts to even think about challenging these guys. People like Webmaster, Dave8, Dano, and Jim are so instrumental in making their points. I have seen pure poetic genius here. I wish everyone in the world were forced to read this entire thread. It conviced me beyond a reasonable doubt of the absurdity of religion and the Bible.
I must say I was laughing my ass off when I read the post about the miricle of the preacher legnthening the shorter leg. Before cable TV when I was a kid I had three channels to choose, and on Sundays I was often forced to watch churh services(because that was all that was on)and I would often watch the Earnest Ainsly hour. He was a big time faith healer in the early 70's. He did the leg trick all the fucking time. When you are seven years old you buy into that faith healing shit, but how could an adult of normal intelligence?

.:webmaster:. said...

Sadly, Ernest Angley is still on the air. He broadcasts in Cleveland, and I don't know where else. His ministry headquarters/church is in Cleveland Ohio.

http://www.ernestangley.org/

xrayman said...

Wow unbelievable, Earnest is still out there, and people are probably still sending this asshole money. Is there any way to edit a post once it's been send to the board? It's very embarrassing to notice a couple of blantant misspellings after you post.

xrayman said...

And I did it again.........Shit

Dano said...

xrayman!
One easy way to do it is to compose in your "Write Mail," then use that spell check, and then copy and paste.
Dan (Homo sapiens, Rationalist)

Anonymous said...

I've been reading your site with great interest. And, despite being a Christian, I have no argument or beef or problem with any of the thoughts, ideas, opinions, facts, theories, or questions posed herein. I am, subsequently, proud to say for all the world to hear; "I don't know." Not a clue. Not a fucking shred of proof that would or could convince anyone of anything. Ultimately, I assert that "I don't know" is the truest answer any intelligent person could offer when faced with pondering such absolute questions re: God, the universe, etc. Hell, I don't even know how to use the damned TV remote without my 11-year-old son's help.

Bentley said...

Anonymous, that was a great answer!

We don't know, nobody knows, thats it! I think one reason people claim to be an Atheist is, we don't know. Atheist's think, rather than go out on a limb and look under every rock hoping to find faith in something that is invisible and worship imaginary concepts, in hopes that the performed ritual will some day be recognized as a benefit to this imaginary god.

As an Atheist myself, I love god whatever god is, if there is a god and it's shows itself to me some day, I will show love for it, if I know how.

I guess we should all claim to love god, whatever god is, that way Christians cannot say that we are against god. I do not love the god of the Bible, because I do not believe the god of the Bible is real.

Anonymous said...

I hear ya. I have friends who are atheists. They know I'm a Christian. But, we respect each other's position. We both have an equal understanding that neither of us can (or should even attempt to) change the other's mind. It's individual choice. And, yes, even though I'm a Christian, I DO NOT believe that 1) you are wrong 2) that I'm absolutely right 3) that there's only one way to believe, or 4) that I should force my beliefs onto others. Not your standard Christian position, to be sure. But that's cool. 'Cause I absolutely loathe being lumped into the stereotypical Bushian Christian category; non-analytical lemmmings with a thoughtless dedication to a story that I myself fully appreciate possesses a patently absurd premise. I mean, come on -- a jewish dude dies, comes back to freakin' life, floats up into the sky to be with his dad, and we eat his body and drink his blood so we can live up in the sky with him after we die? Sounds as crazy as a Sasquatch sighting or a UFO abduction story to me. I absolutely, 100% do not believe in Big Foot. I do, however, absolutely, 100% believe that some of the people who claim to have seen him believe they saw him. Or it. Or whatever. BUT, that experience is their's and their's alone. It can't be proven or disproven for them. Any more than someone can prove they 'love' something. (Hell, even 'love' is just a simple semantic construct we humans use to describe a shared and commonly agreed-upon emotion. The very concept of love can be split umpteen ways, too; the love of a parent for a child, the love of being whipped by a leather strap while wearing an adult diaper, the love for the smell of fresh-baked cookies. Whatever floats your boat. But, I digress... :-) I dig the intellectual banter on this site. It's good. Necessary. Thought provoking. It's not to be feared. Especially by so-called Christians. I mean, if reading this site shakes your faith, you ain't got faith. Reading this site won't turn you atheist anymore than a visit to San Francisco will turn you gay. Anyone willing to read the words posted on these pages -- as opposed to reading INTO them -- will discover a counter perspective that's at the very least as valid as my floating dead Jew story. Not trying to be adversarial to any Christians out there. Just want to encourage open minds and dialogue.

shay706 said...

I have been reading different comments on this sight today,and noticed a couple of people being totally offended about babies being bashed to pieces on rocks.Most athiest,(not all),seem comfortable with ripping babies out of their mothers wombs,no matter how far along in the pregnancy she may be.You Can't be offended by one and not the other.And to the person that said a christian does not believe in Zeus,you have now ran in to one that does.I believe that the angels in Genesis that came down to earth to mate with women,could somehow be related to early beliefs in Greek mythology,and other similiar beliefs.I do not believe that all this was made up.In the new testament,it's mentioned a couple of times about the angels leaving their habitat for pleasures of the flesh and are now chained in darkness.Chained in darkness? That is what they say happened to the titans.Coincidence? I think not. Hey, I believe the bible,but I do not agree with the teachings of the churches that I have attended.For example,what is up with the rapture?I was raised to believe this lie as well as others,until I started investigating this myself.The bible plainly states,over and over again,that Jesus WILL NOT return until AFTER the tribulation.I point this out to christians that I work with,and they say,well,that's not really what that means;You have to see the meaning behind this;That really means when he comes back for the third time.? Allrighttt.John Nelson Darby came up with this little theory in the 1800's.They really get annoyed with me trying to ruin that wonderful day when they will fly out of here to their paradise without any suffering.And how about Easter? Tommorow is Easter when all christians celebrate our risen Savior by hunting colored eggs and Teaching our children about giant rabbits.Maybe you should check into the origin of some of our "christian" traditions.It goes way back to The worship of Ishtar.The eggs and the rabbits are symbols of fertility for the fertility goddess.Churches have their little egg hunts to celebrate the ressurection.I am sure that God is so proud.People need to stop believing what their preacher says and check things out for themselves,and read the bible for themselves,and go by their own understanding of what they read.I do not think any of the TV evangelists are not preaching the truth.The bible says that in the last days,their will be a falling away,which is why I believe their are so many athiest at this time.I cannot understand being an athiest myself because I have naturally always believed and honestly I do fear the thought of burning in hell.I have my own beliefs about everything which differs from most others,but I am not here to judge everyone else.We all think that our own views are right and cannot understand why everyone else can't see the truth.You others out there,christians and athiest,will probably insult me and call me crazy,but I will not get offended.I am going through horrible divorce and this is my favorite way to spend my free time.You've got to have a hobby.So feel free to insult away.It says in the bible that in the last days,you will be hated because of your belief in me,so please,Do not hate me for my supreme wisdom.Yea, I know that my writing skills suck,but I am in school right now.ENGLISH 101 BABY!!,so give me time and I will have all the answers in this area too.Hugs and Kisses,shay706

Dave8 said...

shay706: "Most athiest,(not all),seem comfortable with ripping babies out of their mothers wombs,no matter how far along in the pregnancy she may be.You Can't be offended by one and not the other."

Do you "know" most Atheists? I suspect, you know, very few Atheists, and even less know their opinions in regards to pro-life concerns... And, its much different having a logical "self" evaluated belief, as an Atheist, and having a "god" order the destruction of babies, in the most horrific manner. I am going to assume you don't worship any one Atheist, but you in fact, worship a "god", who you "know" per the bible, directs the murder of innocent babies, children, animals, etc., etc.

Regarding, your belief in Zeus, christianity is predominately "all", if not "all", theistic... are you suggesting that you are polytheistic, and claiming christian belief? If you do, I'd like to hear your most eruditious explanation. Albeit, most "all" christians believe in the "devil" or "boogyman" also, who happens to equal the power of god at times in the bible, and so, perhaps, christianity should be redefined as a polytheistic religion, based on the many different gods christians believe in.

Can you define god? No. But, you believe in multiple versions of something you can't define. That's like admission of being polytheistically ignorant... hope to hear from you.

Prakash said...

I believe in one supreme Energy called by many in various names.
But if someone says 144,000 people will be in Mount Zion and thousands more in other stages of paradise glorifying the Lord sitted at the right hand of God while billions of souls are being tormented every micro second in hell fire , I would prefer to go to hell rather than accepting this unspeakable rational.
This Alpha and Omega God, must have known if you and I will end up in Hell or Heaven .Remember: he is GOD , the knower or past , present and future, any notion given that he has given us a free will to choose and DOES NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE GOING TO CHOOSE , will not qualify him as GOD !!
If he knows the end result, why create us in the first place ?
If you wish to answer this, don't complicate the subject, say it as if you are explaining to a 6 year old kid.

Fiona said...

Thankyou.

I was raised Christian (liberal Christian, it's not just the fundamentalists that deconvert). For most of my teenage years I avoided any discussion about religion, I think I somehow knew I couldn't win. I avoided thinking too deeply about my beliefs, trying to quell the questions that were never far from the surface.

Your post outlines and sets out logically everything I now recognise as true, along with some handy citations that I'll be sure to use myself.

Again, thankyou so much.

shay706 said...

Dave8,I am not ignoring your comments, I am having my court hearing tommorow and I have midterms this week. I will explain my views when I get focus my attention on this subject and after I look up some of the words that you used in your comments.(HA,HA). Maybe after court tommorow I will be ready to respond properly.Until then,shay706

Shannon said...

Shay706

I guess I’m offended by the thought of a LOVING god Okaying the bashing of babies against rocks because it goes against one of his bloody commandments. You know, those pesky little rules that your god has that are really big no-nos. A god who permits killing who has a rule against killing – what the f**k, over?

Pro-choice is not the celebration of abortions and it does not make someone a bloody thirsty lunatic, either. There are somewhere around a million abortions performed in the U.S. each year. I don’t think being pro-choice is about those numbers going up.

“Is your pregnancy an inconvenience to your hedonistic lifestyle? Come in for a scrape and suck and we’ll have you back flat on your back in no time at all!” Please.

Anonymous said...

Many of you who have been Christians before or that just dont believe in God, all i have to say is that you've been given a chance to hear the word and to be given a second chance to go back to God and all you are doing is causing the greatest sin known to mankind and that isnt something to be proud of. I'am a Christian myself and i live my life with purpose, love, and hope. Christ Died for YOU and lets not question God he sent his only son to die for you and this is how you repay him by hindering the holy spirit....wow i pray that God may just move you and help you understand that its not by our strenghth but God does not want us to know everything all at once you see he only lets us know so much because if we knew everything we would go insane!!

Well i'm done here if you have something to reply to me dont even bother bacause i'm never comming to this website ever again....and YES I AM A JESUS FREAK!! AND THERE'S NOTHING BETTER OUT THERE THATS WHY I CHOSE TO STAY BEING A "FANATIC" as you may say God loves you all.

God Bless You all.
Mandy

freeman said...

Mandy,
One question. Which of the thousands of gods loves us and will bless us?

south2003 said...

Us poor 'ole non-belivers. We feel such guilt for turning our back (ass) to a your non-evident deity..har har har!!!

Please Mandy, put down your story books and start reading something with substance.

As for you Shay706, rumor has it that America is a christian nation or was founded up on christian principles, morals and values. If so, it seems (compare to the the %s of non-believers, I believe 3-6% per capita), they, the god believers, must be the ones having the abortions. Correct?

shay706 said...

dave8,I think I'm ready Mr."BIG WORD USER".I work in a very busy burn center.We have a large number of employees with a variety of jobs.Their are doctors,pa's,nurses,burn techs,physical therapists,physical therapy assistants,operating room staff,whirpool staff,secretaries,respiratory therapists,pharmacy techs,and phychologists.I think that covers everybody.I work 12 hour shifts on weekend nights with these people,and while we are in patients rooms for hours and hours,we have alot of talking time. We discuss politics and religion all the time and have debates about different topics.We have several athiest working on our unit,and also a few wiccans.All the athiests that I talk to at work say that the pregnant woman should be able to decide what she want's to do with her own body,except one of the doctors.He doesn't believe that you should get an abortion for any reason.I'm not totally against abortion in cases such as rape,incest,very young girl,or health problems with the pregnant woman.I think that if it must be done,it should be done as early as possible.I don't think that their is ever a reason for partial birth abortions. That is just sick.As far as babies being dashed to pieces on rocks,I found where this is written and to me it sounded like a prophesy of things that would take place in Babylon during a war.I didn't read that this was commanded by God,but that it was a warning about what was going to happen in the future. Where is this verse?Maybe I was reading about something else.As for my believing in Zeus and other gods of the ancient people,God talks about the people worshipping other gods all through the bible.In the book of Genesis,chapter 6:4 it says,There were giants in the earth in those days;and also after that,when the sons of God came into the daughters of men,and they bare children to them,the same became mighty men which were of old,men of renown.Giants and mighty men also mentioned in Deuteronomy 1:28,2:10-11,2:20-21,3:13,17:2-3,2 Peter2:4,Jude 1:6-7.These verses are about giants,worshipping other gods,and angels that sinned and are in chains until the judgement.I believe that they did come to earth and mated with women.The only other place that I have seen the "Sons of God" is in Job where it says that the Sons of God went to talk with God and the devil came along with them.Regular man is called the son of man everywhere else,so since the devil was hanging out with the Sons of God,and they all felt like having a chat with God,I think that they were something above regular men.I believe that they had supernatural powers,and were living on earth and producing these giant,evil children with women,and God said that their violent ways was the cause of the flood.Achilles,Alexander the Great, Helen of Troy,and others were said to have been offsping of Zeus.All of these mythology gods were very immoral beings.I believing that they existed does not mean that I consider them God.I believe that my God is the creator of all things and that he is the one that WE WILL face on judgement day.I believe that Jesus is the son of God and was sent here to die for our sins.I believe that these other beings were evil.I believe that satan is real and that these fallen angels are like him in their mission to destoy mankind.The ancient people probably witnessed their powers and abilities and considered them to be gods,and decided to please the gods and worship them.Different civilizations had different names for these monsters,but they have basically the same story.Ancient Egypt,Babylon,Macedonia,Greece,Rome and other civilizations,probably plenty that we will never even know,were very,very immoral and cruel people.They were sexually immoral in every way.Bisexual,had groups of servant children that's only purpose was to have sex with the adult men,They would have temple prostitutes for their temple orgies to worship their gods.They would have people murdered and have people ripped apart by animals,and considered it Fun Family Entertainment.They would kill members of their own family if they thought them to be a threat to their power.Mothers,Fathers,siblings,didn't matter.I believe that alot of these fallen angels are in chains until the judgement,that alot of them were destroyed in the flood,and alot of them are demonic forces on earth,working with their sidekick satan,decieving and tempting the whole world.Maybe my beliefs differ from the "mainstream" christian beliefs,but I do not take anyone else's word for the meaning of anything.I read the bible for myself and interpret what I read to the best of my own understanding.James1:13 says,Let no man say when he is tempted,I am tempted of God:for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man.2 Timothy4:5 says,But watch thou in all things,endure afflictions,do the work of an evangelist,make full proof of thy ministry.2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says,For such are false apostles,decietful workers,transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.And no marvel;for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed into the ministers of righteousness;whose end shall be according to their works.DO NOT TRUST THE PREACHER!!!!Ephesians6:11-12 says,Put on the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,but against principalities,against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world,against spiritual wickedness in high places.2 Timothy3:1-17.too much to write,but if you ever get curious,take note on verses,2,4,5,7,8,12,13,15,and 16.It talks about the attitudes of people in the last days.I truly believe all this that I have written about.Modern man/woman are believing that they have too much knoledge to believe this silly stuff,but I believe that you are being decieved.I'm not trying to offend anyone,Honestly,but I do not see you as being that smart if you do not believe in God.Think about the universe,galaxies,planets,stars,moon,sun,so many forms of life,the systems of human beings and the way that they all work,all of our organs and the specific jobs that they do,eyes that see,being able to concieve and give birth to children,and so many other things that I can not begin to understand how anyone can believe that it all just happened this way.And for all the people on this site that claims that they would rather be in hell then with that mean god;All that I can say about that is that it is easy for some people to say things like that now,because you are alive and and because we cannot imagine anything else but what we know,which is our life here on earth.We can all talk big and bad about the unknown because we as humans cannot concieve the idea of anything bad happening to us until it has happened.We do not feel like we'll die anytime soon and really don't worry about it much.But,if I am right and you are wrong,and you find yourself in hell one day,and realize that God is real,and see that you are going to be in that torture forever,I don't think you will be quite as cocky.I don't think you'll be saying well, I would rather be here burning forever then with that mean god.Then it will be too late.Just because you say that you don't believe in God and Jesus does not mean that you are 100%sure that you are right.My ethics teacher told us a story about some company in Texas that was making people applying for a job with them,take a polygraph test before they were hired.One of the questions was,Do you believe in God?The people that answered no to the question,the test showed that they were lying.Even though they said no,something in them could not deny that God did exist.Isn't that a nice little story.If you do not want to believe in God,suit yourself,you can get forgiveness for this if you have a change of heart down the road,but you need to be careful about the blaspemy that some of you say on this site,and the pictures,Crrrrinnnge!The devils laughing and saying,"DANCE PUPPETS DANCE"Your choice to not believe in God should not mean that you should hate everything about God and Jesus!You are going to get a wippin for some of this stuff!GO ahead and insult me,call me names,throw pies in my face,I don't mind.I'm just trying to help my fellowman to find his/her way because I AM RIGHT!!!!!!!!Love to you all,shay706

shay706 said...

Shannon,What about the commandments makes you so bitter?They are rules that society needs to abide by anyway.By the way,Nice Poem.shay706

shay706 said...

south2003,Just because this nation was found on christian principals,does not mean that the people here now are christians.People may say that they are,but not living a life that shows them to be telling the truth.I'm sure that the majority of the girls getting abortions,are not wholesome gals.If they were christians,they would be pregnant by their husbands,thus not needing an abortion.It's 5:36 in the morning and I'm tired of all this right now.It took forever with that other comment I wrote.Goodbye for now,my heathen pals.shay706

south2003 said...

Sha: "People may say that they are, but not living a life that shows them to be telling the truth. I’m sure that the majority of the girls getting abortions are not wholesome gals."

Then it's fare to say you could be one of them "people" not living the life and telling the truth or are you going to say "I'm not perfect?" If the majority of the not so wholesome “Christians gals” are having abortions, then what’s the beef with us heathens?

Your Christianity should first take out the MOTE from its own eye before it tries to remove the BEAM from humanity's.

Prakash said...

Mandy
Quote "to be given a second chance to go back to God "

Prakash: You didn't get my earlier point , He knows whether I will be accepting this 'chance' or most probable rejecting it within my lifetime. Then why create my soul in the first place if he knows the end result?

Mandy : "you are doing is causing the greatest sin known to mankind and that isnt something to be proud of"
Prakash : Our comments aren't the greatest sin. History proves Slavery, Holocaust , fanatical pressure , narrow mindedness, Chatolics- Protestant war and oppresion, brain washing activities by fanatical Christians avengalist in poor countries is the greastest sin to human kind and your "Word Of God' is responsible for this.

shay706 said...

south2003,I do not believe that I am perfect by any means.I am human and sin like everyone else.The only difference with me is,that I know when something is wrong and make my decisions based on this.I don't tell myself,"Hey,I don't like these rules of God and I like doing things my own way,right or wrong.Who does this God think he is?I do what I want to do.I think that I will deny that God exists and not worry about it".I am sure that some christian girls have gave into sexual temptation and came up pregnant,but if they made the decision to have an abortion,I'm sure that they would have some emotion and sorrow about the loss of the baby,and not just carry on,feeling like it was their right to kill the baby,and not having any feelings about it.I am not in denial about sins of christians.I know that we all fall short.Myself included.I do not understand however,why you keep claiming that chritians are the ones getting abortions.You know the main girls that pick this for a form of birth control,have probably been around the track a time or two.Casual sex is the most common cause for an abortion.I don't think that a woman should be able to make this decision without the father having any say so either.Just because he doesn't have to carry the baby,he still has a right to defend his own flesh and blood! So many in our generation care about SELF needs only.You seem to care about this abortion issue a great deal.What's your story?I am not saying that I have a beef with you people.I just truly believe with all my heart,that you are being misled.Something may have happened in your life that has turned you against God.Maybe not,but I believe that you have to be bitter about something I know that your life cannot suck any more than mine.With all the tragic incident's I have had to encounter,I should be bedridden with depression.I have children to raise and have to keep it together.This latest issue,(cause of divorce),sometimes seems like too much to bare,but I do not turn against God,but try to rely on him to help me through another nightmare.We all deal with life in our own way,but I at least have heaven to look foward to,and athiest only have to look foward to jumping from the frying pan into the fryer.I have to get ready for work now,so I will check your response tommorow.Until Then,shay706

south2003 said...

Sha,

What you might see as a sin (because a book tells you it is) I don’t. I don’t see sex, human, reproduction and what a woman choose to do with her body a “crime.” So what is your beef with us heathens, unbelievers and atheists or a woman that chooses to have an abortion? How is that bodily harming you? Is it affecting your day to day life? Why is the church so pre-occupied with babies when their holy book promotes harming them?

This design that you are fed with is that in order for a person to do “good” (whatever “good” is), they have to have a god, your god belief. It is sad that you and others like you only do “good” because of this threat or you are told to do “good” and not because you want to do “good.”

Until you have evidence that your “good” is superior (because you have belief in a non-evident god) than our “good,” then your so-call “good” is not more legitimate than ours.


Sha: “I am not saying that I have a beef with you people.I just truly believe with all my heart,that you are being misled.Something may have happened in your life that has turned you against God.Maybe not,but I believe that you have to be bitter about something I know that your life cannot suck any more than mine.With all the tragic incident's I have had to encounter,I should be bedridden with depression.I have children to raise and have to keep it together.This latest issue,(cause of divorce),sometimes seems like too much to bare,but I do not turn against God,but try to rely on him to help me through another nightmare.We all deal with life in our own way,but I at least have heaven to look foward to,and athiest only have to look foward to jumping from the frying pan into the fryer.I have to get ready for work now,so I will check your response tommorow.Until Then,shay706”


I thought we were discussing abortions…humm. Now that I have come to the end of your speech, I can now see why you are so occupied with what others are doing concerning their lives and their bodies. Screaming loud enough indicates to me that you are either culpable or repressed about it.

Anyhow, Sha, you sound as if you are robbed and your life is cheapened. It’s a handful being a young person with children and going through a divorce and depression. This is why it is easy for you to buy “a better place call heaven.” Being gullible is the perfect breeding ground for religious cons to sell you anything. There is no god (s) to help you. If there was such a deity, it would have helped. Tell me, if you have so much to look forward to after death, then why you are so concern about sticking around. If you were 100% sure that when you die, there would be such a place, then you would have ended it. The emotional preaching is comical though. Snap out of it and start reading!

There is no god to be angry with and if you are going to be angry you might as well be angry at them all - including the 8,000+ other gods - and no, I’m not bitter at your god my dear. It is called “the lack of evidence for one including your heaven and the fryer.” Not bitterness. There is not proof, so this required ‘belief” fear and bitterness is not necessary and is just a waste of my time

.:webmaster:. said...

Shay, please present evidence that your god exists, and that it is the one true god.

Until you do, you're just another ranting fanatic. You sound no different than any religious Islamic. I challenge you to prove the existence of your god.

shay706 said...

webmaster,Okay!I accept your challenge!On May 11,2006,I will get God to show you a big surprise eclipse of the sun. I'll get him to do it right above your house.Mark this date on your calendar.

Now you sound like a ranting fanatic.You'll get your proof soon enough when you meet your maker face to face and you have to give him an account for your life.Then you'll say,I am so sorry Mr.God.Do you have anything that I can do for extra credit or is there any chores I can do for you? I didn't mean to be so arrogant.Please give me one more chance and I will make you proud.Praises to you BIG GUY!GOD ROCKS!!!!But he may say,It's too late now my little webmaster.I let you hear my word and you turned up your nose and denied me before men.Go burn in your eternal fire with the other unbelievers.

Proove to me that we were formed from "particles" without help,into every creature on earth,into every unique race of man,with our own "one of a kind" DNA.Take the same challenge that you have such delight in giving.shay706

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh boy, I'd love an eclipse — I can't wait!

So, I take it from your insightful post that you can't offer one shred of evidence?

Hmmm.

Oh, BTW, I never made a single claim about particles, or anything else. I'm willing to admit ignorance when it comes to some aspects of science. I admit I don't know the answers to a lot of questions. However, you claim to have the answers, and those answers are...god.

Since you are the one making fantastic claims, I challenge you to reveal solid evidence for this god of yours. From your posts, I could just as easily say Thor did it, as to say your flying un-dead man-god on a stick did it. There is equal evidence of Thor's existence to that of your god — none.

I'll give a full report on the eclipse.

shay706 said...

Ok south 2003,(LONG,EXASPERATED SIGH),Here we go.

First of all,the terrorist attacks in New York City didn't cause ME any bodily harm either,but it still saddened me.As for sex,sometimes IT IS a crime.Watch the news once and a while and you'll see how big a crime that sex is becoming.Homosexual sex and abortion have not even been legal for a long time.The first state that allowed abortion was California in 1969.A few other states started to permit abortion in the early 70's.In the 60's,when morals began to decline at an alarming rate,is when abortion became legal.Statistic show that 80% of women that get abortions are single.If they would have kept sex for "marriage" like God intended for us to do,They would have more than likely been happier with their pregnancy.They decided to have intimate relations without the intimate feelings and without a commited relationship,and when pregnancy was the result of their irresponsible behavior,the girl knows that the sperm donor will not be around for this blessed event,and feels that she can't manage the hardship alone,and decides to do away with this little inconvenience.If a woman feels good about herself,and has a tiny speck of self respect,she would cherish her body and her and find her own sexuality to special to give to any old stranger just because she may find them to be attractive.I see so much wrong with our immoral view of sex these days.All the pornography,casual sex,extra marital affairs,threesomes,foursomes,and fivesomes,online sex with complete strangers and their cameras,etc.I think that all this trash is ruining the minds of people.Children are exposed to sex now WAY before they are ready to be.Some people get so obsessed with this filth,that they commit sexual crimes against children,male and female teachers are having adult relationships with very young students, Men are raping the old lady that lives down their street,and whatever other outragious scenario you can think of.Our generation is having an overdose of sexual exposure!!

Next topic: I think that you should read my "HOLY BOOK" before you try to quote it.My God DOES NOT promote harming babies.I have read all throughout the bible where "MY" God is angry at the heathen people for sacrificing their own children to pagan gods.He called the murder of these children an ABOMINATION!I will make it a mission tonight to find as many verses as I can to prove how he felt about the murder of children.Some of you really like repeating this LIE,when I am sure that you really don't even have a small clue about what the bible says about this issue.The bible says that lying is a sin,OOOPS!I forgot,you do not believe that sin exists,so I will assume that you are a liar.I have NEVER said that the only reason that I do "good"is because of a (threat?),I just happen to be a person of ethical behavior and strong morals.I don't roam around like an animal,sharing myself with men that could care less about me,and I believe a woman that does has severe mental issues.I do not make up lies.I do not steal from other people.I do not go stomping around,complaining about something at all times,feeling "picked on" by every body,playing the victim for attention and whining.Most women have made these annoying traits their pesonality.When I show up at work,and I am not scheduled,but coming in extra to help,Everyone acts so happy to see me and want's to know which rooms I have,so they can work with me.They ask charge nurses if I can have rooms on their side and actually argue about it with others that want me on their side I get along with everyone I work with,because we have these angry,grouchy people,and I can pick on them in joking way about their attitudes,and get them laughing.I help them out with what they feel are heavy assighnments,so they can get caught up and not feel overwhelmed.Joking around and making work fun,and helping others with their workload,has won me a few little awards at my job.I have to be with these people for 12 hours at a time,and if you have one peacemaker,it makes such a difference.I get along with all the athiest people that I work with too. We,in good nature can dicuss these things without the ugliness that I see on this website.They love me too,and want me on their side like everyone else does.I don't waller around in self pity or mope around in a depression.I have had horrible things happen in my life and I have seen people that brake with a fraction of the problems that i have had.I may have times,when I am alone,and think about things and get sad,but I do not get stuck in that mode.Normal human beings are SUPPOSE to get sad over sad things.I make the choice,not to take a handful of pills to take away normal reactions to the trials of life.I understand that it takes TIME to recover fully from emotional wounds.That we are not normal if we are not affected by hardtimes.America pops a bill for a natural response to bad happenings.I said that enough has happened to me,where I SHOULD be bedridden with depression.Not that I am.I have children that love me,a family that loves me and will give me anything if I needed it.I have my GOD that DOES help me get through all my trials.I don't run shaking to the doctor for a pill to take away my sadness;HOW ABOUT YOU?I do not think that you would tell the truth if you were.I DO 100% believe in heaven,and only an IDIOT would say that if I believed in such a place,that I would end it all!WHATEVER!!!Because I have had some bad times like alot of others in the world,I should end it all.Maybe you should NOT have children if that is the kind of thoughts and values that are in your head!When times get hard,if you believe in heaven,just get on out of here.You should think about a career in counseling!I would never do that to my family,NO MATTER HOW BAD THINGS WERE!Only a self centered lunatic would cause this kind of pain to others.I owe my children the best that i can give them as a MOTHER.We have alot of fun and I am happy MOST of the time because I have a God that helps me.I do get sad,but it is very short lived.So for someone with your SCREWED UP IDEAS to try to paint me as a pathetic,weak person,That is what is COMICAL.I could just tell from your comments that you had some serious issues,and made an attempt to show you that others had hard times and struggles,because we all do,but deny that you have bitterness;You are unreasonably hostile.If you want to live your life in misery and have an arterlife of misery,Go Ahead.And it is SO STRANGE for you do say that I am preoccupied with other peoples life because I post comments with my opinions,When YOU are ready to post back you opinion in record time I think you watch you computer,waiting for something for your chance to spit out some anger.And WHY to you people feel entitled to demand EVIDENCE of your creator?Your EVIDENCE the bible and that you have life.This is not anything new!The belief in GOD has been around as long,well,longer then man.

BC=BEFORE CHRIST
AND
AD=AFTER DEATH

I did not make this up.And the prophecy that God gives us in the bible,about the ways of mankind in the last days,being without natural affection,being mean and spiteful and sexually immoral,and boastful and having feelings of intelligence that sees all,and has no respect for the GOD that made them because of "PRIDE"? Write whatever you care to write back to me,but I will not respond to your comments anymore.I'll pray for your ignorance,and for your ability to seek help.shay706

Bentley said...

Brainwashed fundy Shay wrote!

I just happen to be a person of ethical behavior and strong morals.I don't roam around like an animal,sharing myself with men that could care less about me,and I believe a woman that does has severe mental issues.I do not make up lies.I do not steal from other people.I do not go stomping around,complaining about something at all times,feeling "picked on" by every body,playing the victim for attention and whining.

Neither do I, and I am an Atheist, and I would also be willing to bet 100% of Atheist here, are just like me, so does that mean that we are Christians? Apparently!


Webmaster how much money do I need to send in, to get this Shay asshole booted or scubbed?....lol

I wish we had a delete button for ignorant fundies. Thanks, Ben

shay706 said...

webmaster,
How can you say that I am making a fantastic claim?I did not come up with this idea.It's been around for oh,so long.I just happen to believe that God is real and that the bible is real.Thor.Yes,I think that a little research on THOR is in order now.I do not have any snapshots around here to show you.I just without a doubt,know that I am right.My beliefs are neverending searches and dicoveries.Me and my cool friends have hours and hours of fun searching for new and exiting clues and answers for all the hidden mysteries of the world.The "propaganda" out their is very interesting.Davinci Code,Gospel of Judas,New world order,conspiracies,Masons,United Nations,Trilateral Commision,The list goes on and on.Maybe if you guys read into this a little bit,you would see the strange things that are going on behind the scenes,and realise that these things are going on for a reason,because its some crazy stuff.You would see that their is a big game going on against God and Against Jesus.The end is near my dear lost friend.I will try to round up some old family pictures that God Took with us a couple of years ago.If I run across them,I will let you know. Just count on the eclipse for now.shay706

shay706 said...

ben,oh,ben, I am not saying that athiests are stomping around complaining.I was talking about people in general.Every one is mad and complaining all the time,and I was saying that I wasn't one of those people.I do not understand why on this website,everything I say keeps getting twisted around,or misunderstood.It is not very nice to call a woman ugly names.But hey,that the way society has become.No respect for women anymore.I was disturbed by south2003,and her comment's to me.I was putting her in the same category of the always angry people. She said that I should end it all if I believed in heaven,and I think that comments like that show deep,rooted mental problems I think that you are kind of on the mean side yourself and that it's crazy to say that,"all athiest are like this",and "all christians are like that". You cannot put a whole group of people in a pile and claim oneness.Collect money and throw me out of your lives forever.You are not really showing yourselves to be a fun crowd to be with anyway..MEAN,MEAN,MEAN!shay706

David said...

To Shay706,

There are some good people on this site. Keep your eyes open for them. Everyone tends to get defensive and emotional when defending ones beliefes (or non-beliefs). Our faith in God is just as obsurd to them as their lack of faith is to us.

Dave Poole

boomSLANG said...

Shay706: "Your EVIDENCE (is) the bible and that you have life."

Sorry Maam, the bible isn't "evidence" for jack shit. ' Ya know why you and "others" LIKE you believe, Maam?...because you can't fathom your own non-existance, that's why. Look, it's simple--- you're going to die Maam. Yup, one day your heart muscle will stop pumping blood to your brain and the rest of your body; gases and fluids will pool in your lungs and other vital organs, and you will lose consciousness, Maam---PERMANTLY. Nothing t'fear, though, Maam.... you won't feel a thing.

Nope, maybe critical thinking won't cure your ignorant religious belief, but death sure 'nough will...::wink::

R.I.P. Maam.

boomSLANG said...

David Poole(The wandering aimlessly X-ian who has yet to provide objective evidence for his god) said:


"Our faith in God is just as obsurd to them as their lack of faith is to us."

Tell me, why is a "lack of faith" absurd? I don't have faith in bigfoot, neither do you, yet, there's "documented" sightings written down in many books on the subject. The same goes for UFOs; the same goes for the Lochness Monster; the same goes for the abominabal snowman.

So, is YOUR lack of "faith" in these things "absurd"? The difference(like it really needs to be pointed out), is none of the above mentioned myths promise David Poole that he can "live forever". You have zero vested interest in believing in them on "faith". If I'm wrong, I'm sure you have the evidence, right? lol

R.I.P. Dave

Bentley said...

You're exactly right Shay! Anyone that does not cater to you and your silly childhood beliefs would come off as, mean, vile, vicious, bitter and mean, so why don't you go back to your church, where people will kiss your ass, because they want people stupid just like them, to support them and their stupid beliefs.

You see, you're looking for someone to kiss your ass and support your beliefs, but you will not find it here, except the same people that want their ass kissed too, like David Pool and mq49.

Dave8 said...

Shay706: "dave8,I think I'm ready Mr."BIG WORD USER"."

No need to get defensive, your lack of erudition is not my doing.

Shay706: "I work in a very busy burn center.We have a large number of employees with a variety of jobs.Their are doctors,pa's,nurses,burn techs,physical therapists,physical therapy assistants,operating room staff,whirpool staff,secretaries,respiratory therapists,pharmacy techs,and phychologists.I think that covers everybody.I work 12 hour shifts on weekend nights with these people,and while we are in patients rooms for hours and hours,we have alot of talking time."

Lets, see, you have time to talk to patients, that's nice. I've done my share of clinical hours, so, lets see how well your discourse holds out. Now, its obvious that you didn't mention what "you" do for a living, in the midst of all of those occupations, would it be rude for me to hope you are not employed as an anesthetist, a few mispelled prescriptions could lead to some dire results.

Shay706: "We discuss politics and religion all the time and have debates about different topics.We have several athiest working on our unit,and also a few wiccans.All the athiests that I talk to at work say that the pregnant woman should be able to decide what she want's to do with her own body,except one of the doctors.He doesn't believe that you should get an abortion for any reason.I'm not totally against abortion in cases such as rape,incest,very young girl,or health problems with the pregnant woman.I think that if it must be done,it should be done as early as possible.I don't think that their is ever a reason for partial birth abortions."

It appears you don't get out much. The topic is morality and ethic based, and typically there are laws that cover such interests. I would ask you if you have a law degree, or some knoweldge of jurisprudence, but it appears, that would require more big words, so, I'll have to presume you are not running for supreme court justice anytime soon. That aside, morality, ethics, and law are debated from different platforms, one form of law is "spiritual law", another is "natural law". The U.S. has states that push common law, or laws common to the people, and typically at the earliest setting of this nation, those "common" laws were based on religious belief, and nothing short of "spiritual law", at the state level.

The religious typically place their moral beliefs in spiritual law, predominately, and those who don't see the need for religious support, lean towards natural law. Now, that is the far left and far right of a spectrum, and in between those two outer limits is the blending of the two in varying degrees.

Now, I really don't care what your opinion, is, as much as I care to hear your logical argument for your opinion. Further, do you believe a person needs to have a logical foundation for their beliefs, when "life and death" decisions are to be made from such logic?

I'll give you my short answer... spiritual law, is based on hypotheticals that can't be falsified, or proven wrong or right, in short, spiritual laws rely on nothing but pure imagination, and the hope that when decisions are made today, that in the future some good will come of those decisions. Personally, basing life and death decisions, on pure speculation/unprovable hypotheticals is insane, if one "values" life. Hence, in my opinion, when discussing abortion, etc., it seems the only logical and verifiable way to produce predictable actions, is to invest ones' time searching natural law, and deriving opinion. That doesn't mean, that all religious people hold to spiritual foundations for their beliefs, but... many do, and many die from their beliefs.

For instance, Jehova's Witnesses, don't accept blood transfusions, as it taints their bodily temple, and thus, many die at car crash sites. A religious mother, who believes a ghost enters an embryo, call it the "holy ghost" if you will, and believes, aborting that "godly" being, is akin to murder, and thus, that mother may die in order to keep to her "spiritual law". Oh, I don't agree with basing any decisions on "spiritual law", period, not one molecular bit, its all natural law for me. Its apparent, that if your debate with all those people at work, didn't lead you to find this pattern, that you obviously aren't dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Shay706: "That is just sick.As far as babies being dashed to pieces on rocks,I found where this is written and to me it sounded like a prophesy of things that would take place in Babylon during a war.I didn't read that this was commanded by God,but that it was a warning about what was going to happen in the future. Where is this verse?Maybe I was reading about something else."

**********************************************************************

Isaiah 13:15-16 - "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished"

These verses foretold the deaths of the people of Babylon. Fortunately not everyone in Babylon (now modern Iraq) fell by the sword or had their children dashed to pieces or their wives raped (just another instance of errors in the Bible). How some people who believe in an infallible Bible can accept these verses as God inspired, or morally uplifting can only give evidence to the blinding nature of unprovable hypothetical belief.

**********************************************************************

Hosea 13:16 - "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces,
and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Throughout the Bible, God smites those who do not believe in him or those who do not follow his commands. Here we have the grotesque description of infants
dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped up. Whatever rebellious nature an infant's father or mother may have had, it bears no justice to an innocent
child or to an unborn fetus who could not possibly have rebelled against God, much less understood him. Anyone who claims to love such a God, must accept infanticide as one of God's ugly revenges.

**********************************************************************

Psalm 137:9 - "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Uh, happiness to your god, is killing little babies, Shay.

**********************************************************************

Luke 14:26 - "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

In order for you to be a disciple of christ, you must "hate" children, and... yourself. Shay, why don't you ask the psychologist at work, what they think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and how this verse impairs the self-esteem needs in a persons' life, and in the lives of children.

**********************************************************************

Exodus 21:15 - "And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

Uh, that means, unruly children who hit mom or pop, need to be executed.

**********************************************************************

Exodus 21:17 - "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

Uh, execute the children, even if they utter a swear word towards their parents.

**********************************************************************

Leviticus 20:9 - "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Again, cursing parents, is capital punishment, death.

**********************************************************************

Matthew 15:4 - "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

This is getting boring, however, once again, slay the child for cursing a parent. And, lest we not forget, "Jesus", said in not so many words "father, why hast thou forsaken me?", I'm not thinking that this was a statement to "honor" his father, as a matter of fact, he is calling into question his fathers' motive for allowing himself to be crucified, hence... not "honoring" big daddy, but, perhaps, Jesus didn't have to obey his "fathers'" commandments, or biblical teachings. He didn't obey the sabbath, why bother with the other commandments...

**********************************************************************

Exodus 21:7-8 - "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath

betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

When the children get a little older, parents can spiritually whore their children off for profit... if the children do not obey, i.e., honor their parents' wishes, well, then their new owners can resell them to others for pleasure... Shay, have you actually read your "holy" bible.

**********************************************************************

Judges 11:29-39, states, that When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity. Nothing like putting the kids on fire, huh, Shay.

**********************************************************************

Shay, if you want more, I have read the bible, I can get you plenty, the question is, if you are the one who is religious, and believe the bible to be the word of god, then, why don't "you' know these passages by heart, specially, if you are using "spiritual law" to base life and death decisions on, in your life.

Shay706: "As for my believing in Zeus and other gods of the ancient people,God talks about the people worshipping other gods all through the bible.In the book of Genesis,chapter 6:4 it says,There were giants in the earth in those days;and also after that,when the sons of God came into the daughters of men,and they bare children to them,the same became mighty men which were of old,men of renown.Giants and mighty men also mentioned in Deuteronomy 1:28,2:10-11,2:20-21,3:13,17:2-3,2 Peter2:4,Jude 1:6-7.These verses are about giants,worshipping other gods,and angels that sinned and are in chains until the judgement.I believe that they did come to earth and mated with women.The only other place that I have seen the "Sons of God" is in Job where it says that the Sons of God went to talk with God and the devil came along with them.Regular man is called the son of man everywhere else,so since the devil was hanging out with the Sons of God,and they all felt like having a chat with God."

Okay, first of all, the war in the heavens, is not chronicled in the bible, in detail. The whole thing about giant people, being born from angelic conception, etc., is totally insane. Do you not realize, that the bible, states, that "ALL" was created in six days, uh, Shay, that means "HELL" was created before mankind, uh, and pardon to sarcasm, but that means the little dude with the red pitchfork was already hanging out with big sky daddy, much sooner than the "sons of man", hence, why the opening scene in the bible, one of the "two" genesis creation stories, already has a slippery snake in the "Perfect" garden of paradise, waiting to "tempt" gods' "Perfect" creation, Adam and Eve, or... not so perfect, as they were temptable.

Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, let us make man in our image."

Shay, what does "OUR" mean to you?

Genesis 3:22 - "And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

Genesis 11:7 - "Let us go down, and there confound their language."

Exodus 12:12 - "And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment."

That would be "ALL" gods, Shay, of Egypt, how many gods of Egypt where there Shay? If you need help, I'll provide the ball park figure, I have research documentation with the names, you may want to go pick up some of that reading material yourself, it does wonders for "ignorance".


Exodus 15:11 - "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Exodus 18:11 - "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Exodus 20:3 - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Exodus 22:20 - "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Exodus 22:28 - "Thou shalt not revile the gods."

Exodus 23:13 - "Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."

Exodus 23:24 - "Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images."

Exodus 23:32 - "Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods."

Exodus 34:14 - "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 6:14-15 - "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)"

Numbers 33:4 - "Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments."

Okay, its obvious, in order for you "god" to execute judgement on "other" gods, they must first "exist", thus, the bible, being of a gods' words, makes claims that other gods, are real, and exist, period.

Judges 11:24 - "Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?'

1 Samuel 6:5 - "Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods."

1 Samuel 28:13 - "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth."

Psalm 82:1 - "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye are gods."

Uh, Shay, we are gods, per your bible.

Psalm 86:8 - "Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord."

Psalm 96:4 - "For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods."

Psalm 97:7 - "Worship him, all ye gods."

Psalm 136:2 - "O give thanks unto the God of gods."

Jeremiah 1:16 - "I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods."

Jeremiah 10:11 - "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens."

Zephaniah 2:11 - "The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."

John 10:33-34 - "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Shay, its obvious you haven't read your bible in depth. And, the giant humans coming from angelic conception, yeah, I was told that too, as a bible study story growing up, but then... I grew up, and asked where that story resided in the bible, and guess what... I found these verses, of multiple gods everywhere. Not, angels, not imps, not devils... GODS! EGYPTIAN GODS, etc., etc.

Shay706: "I think that they were something above regular men.I believe that they had supernatural powers,and were living on earth and producing these giant,evil chidren with women,and God said that their violent ways was the cause of the flood.Achilles,Alexander the Great, Helen of Troy,and others were said to have been offsping of Zeus.All of these mythology gods were very immoral beings.I believing that they existed does not mean that I consider them God.I believe that my God is the creator of all things and that he is the one that WE WILL face on judgement day."

Again, show me about giants being born of angels in the bible, Shay. Your bible states there are multiple "gods" roaming the heavens, how do you know Zeus isn't one of them? Let me guess, you choose to ignore the part of your bible, that contradicts what you "want" to believe.

Shay706: "I believe that Jesus is the son of God and was sent here to die for our sins.I believe that these other beings were evil."

Show me in the bible, where these other "gods" are evil. Its plain to see that your god, is "jealous" of those other gods, but where does it say, all of those other "gods" are "evil"? It doesn't, you are totally making this up as you go.

Exodus 34:14 - "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"

Uh, your gods' name... Shay... is "Jealous", why would a supreme god be jealous Shay.

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Something to think about, Shay, is that Jesus' name, was not mentioned in the Old Testament/Covenant, "once", "EVER". And even in the New Testament, per John, above, there is the "father", and "WORD", and the "holy ghost", uh, someone seems left out of the statement, perhaps, "JESUS" was left out.

Shay706: "I believe that satan is real and that these fallen angels are like him in their mission to destoy mankind."

When is the last time, you talked with Satan, or... perhaps your own god? NEVER, but you really seem to have a solid "opinion" on the matter, so, how did you come to this knowledge.

Shay706: "The ancient people probably witnessed their powers and abilities and considered them to be gods,and decided to please the gods and worship them.Different civilizations had different names for these monsters,but they have basically the same story.Ancient Egypt,Babylon,Macedonia,Greece,Rome and other civilizations,probably plenty that we will never even know,were very,very immoral and cruel people.They were sexually immoral in every way.Bisexual,had groups of servant children that's only purpose was to have sex with the adult men,They would have temple prostitutes for their temple orgies to worship their gods.They would have people murdered and have people ripped apart by animals,and considered it Fun Family Entertainment.They would kill members of their own family if they thought them to be a threat to their power.Mothers,Fathers,siblings,didn't matter.I believe that alot of these fallen angels are in chains until the judgement,that alot of them were destroyed in the flood,and alot of them are demonic forces on earth,working with their sidekick satan,decieving and tempting the whole world.Maybe my beliefs differ from the "mainstream" christian beliefs,but I do not take anyone else's word for the meaning of anything.I read the bible for myself and interpret what I read to the best of my own understanding."

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha, you actually believe anyone thinks you "read" the bible, and came up with that conclusion. Which bible are you reading. Your own bible, states that there were "Many" GODS in heaven, before we even got to earth, it doesn't give names, other than there are Egyptian gods obviously in heaven, and it surely doesn't give their purpose or intents. So, how do "you" come up with calling all of these other "gods" in heaven, before Adam and Eve were created, evil. You have got to be kidding. You are using your imagination to make sense of the bible, because, a) You haven't read your bible, b) You are not capable of reading your bible properly, c) You ahve read your bible, and like filling in the gaps with your own religious beliefs, again, going back to spiritual law, and abortion, "You" are not the person I would want making decisions on life and death, especially, if you pick up a book, and "interpret" it the way you want, and not based on what it says. Suppose, there is a d) That you have read your bible, you realize the evil your god displays, and yet, are here attempting to deceive others, on the "words" in the bible, by claiming, you "interpret" the words differently...

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


Shay706: "James1:13 says,Let no man say when he is tempted,I am tempted of God:for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man."


First of all, it appears your "god" is "temptable", you need to read your bible... again.

Deuteronomy 6:16 - "Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God."

Matthew 4:7 & Luke 4:12 - "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Acts 15:10 - "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"


Secondly, you believe "god" tempts no man?

Genesis 22:1 - "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am."

**Some claim that your god was tempted by Satan, to test the faithfulness of Abraham, and its clearly spelled out in the dead sea scrolls as such.

2 Samuel 24:1 - "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah."

Matthew 6:13 - "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Job 42:11 - "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with

him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:"


Shay706: "2 Timothy4:5 says,But watch thou in all things,endure afflictions,do the work of an evangelist,make full proof of thy ministry."

2 Timothy 4:14 - "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"

God will "reward" Alexander for the "blasphemy" of disagreeing with Paul. (See 1 Tim.1:20 and 2 Tim.2:16-18)


And, by the way, your bible says that not everyone should be evangelized to...

Matthew 10:5-6 - "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 15:24 - "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Acts 16:6 - "Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia."

Okay, so lost Jewish people were the target audience, therefore, leave out everyone else, including the Asian folks, got it. Obviously, Shay, you need to find out how many people on this site, are "lost" Jews, and ensure, no one is of Asian ancestry.


Shay706: "2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says,For such are false apostles,decietful workers,transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.And no marvel;for atan himself is transformed into an angel of light.Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed into the ministers of righteousness;whose end shall be according to their works.DO NOT TRUST THE PREACHER!!!!"

2 Corinthians 11:8 - "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service."

Shay, Paul set an example for televangelists by robbing some churches. You pulled a passage from 2 Corinthians, where Paul robbed churches, and set the example for his followers, as the first "True Christian", and follower of a Jesus. Perhaps, you should have cited another book.


Shay706: "Ephesians6:11-12 says,Put on the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,but against principalities,against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world,against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Ephesians 6:5 - "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto hrist;"

Slaves must obey their masters "as unto Christ." Well, Shay, I suppose slavery is okay as well with your god, yes, yes, slavery went on in those days, but... we are talking about your "gods" holy bible and doctrine, one would think a good "god", not an "evil" god, would renounce such activities. But, it appears your god, does condone slavery throughout the bible...


Shay706: "2 Timothy3:1-17.too much to write,but if you ever get curious,take note on verses,2,4,5,7,8,12,13,15,and 16.It talks about the attitudes of

people in the last days."

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in

righteousness:"

Okay, so... "ALL" scripture is given by inspiration of "God"?

1 Corinthians 7:12 - "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord."

1 Corinthians 7:25 - "Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment..."

Well, it appears that there are some "opinions" that are "NOT" inspired by god, in the bible, and what else do we know about scripture, being changed in the bible, for reproof, correction, or for "ANY" purpose?

Revelation 22:19 - "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Shay, a cliche comes to mind... Uh, damned if you do mess with the word, and damned if you don't... nice religion you have there.


Shay706: "I truly believe all this that I have written about.Modern man/woman are believing that they have too much knoledge to believe this silly stuff,but I believe that you are being decieved.I'm not trying to offend anyone,Honestly,but I do not see you as being that smart if you do not believe in God."

Again, you "believe" everyone is deceived, except you, and that means they aren't smart. Uh, the patented "BIGOTRY" statement comes out, thanks Shay, for showing your most obtuse insights on this site, you are a proverbial "True Christian", if there ever was one, why don't you and Paul, go rob a few churches, and continue to shine the example for the masses - dolt.


Shay706: "Think about the universe,galaxies,planets,stars,moon,sun,so many forms of life,the systems of human beings and the way that they all work,all of our organs and the specific jobs that they do,eyes that see,being able to concieve and give birth to children,and so many other things that I can not begin to understand how anyone can believe that it all just happened this way."

I know, you are obviously being stretched neurologically to your limits, with all of these big words, but... if you want to delve into some physics, math, logic, philosophy, biology, etc., just let me know. The bottom line however, is... that the universe is at it is, because it has evolved into what it has
become, not because it is sitting in a perfect state... Do you have another existence, to present so that we can make comparison... No? Well, then, I suppose we could be living in a pretty dismal Universe without knowing anything "Different"...


Shay706: "And for all the people on this site that claims that they would rather be in hell then with that mean god;All that I can say about that is that it is easy for some people to say things like that now,because you are alive and and because we cannot imagine anything else but what we know,which is our life here on earth."

So, Shay, are you "dead" and speaking from another existence? Or... are you just like everyone else, talking about things you can't possibly know, as you "imagine" that a "hell" exists... Why not "imagine" that a "hell" doesn't exist... in either, case... its all magic, and imaginary, unless you have proof, and... you don't, unless you are going to suggest, that me having to respond to your most uneducated post, is a form of hell, and then... I could see your point.


Shay706: "We can all talk big and bad about the unknown because we as humans cannot concieve the idea of anything bad happening to us until it has happened.We do not feel like we'll die anytime soon and really don't worry about it much.But,if I am right and you are wrong,and you find yourself in hell one day,and realize that God is real,and see that you are going to be in that torture forever,I don't think you will be quite as cocky."

Again, you seem to be wanting to say something as if "you" are somehow "different" than everyone else, as if... you have some objective truth tucked away, hate to break it to you - you don't. You want to use your imagination, and conjur up hell, well, if you're wrong, then you will be burning in Muslim Hell, and its much worse than your piddly hell by far, as a matter of fact, hell per the Old Testament, wasn't the Hell of the New Testament, but... I am sure you know the difference, I mean, you are going to make decisions in your life, based on spiritual laws, so it only makes sense, that you have done your historical research, to make sure you are not being a fool... should I have faith, that you have in fact, done your research, or should I accept your post here, as evidence of your research so far.


Shay706: "I don't think you'll be saying well, I would rather be here burning forever then with that mean god.Then it will be too late.Just because you say that you don't believe in God and Jesus does not mean that you are 100%sure that you are right."

When you finally get to college, and I hope, you are not already in college, as that would mean, you are actually representing the quality of college students now entering educational stitutions... you need to take a few classes in philosophy. Not getting into Platonic dialogue, in depth, but... can you name "one" thing in this Universe, that you, and everyone else in this Universe can experience "equally", without any "deviation"? Why do I ask?

Well, obviously, you can't define "god", and you have never known or experienced "Jesus", so you have no way to even begin to pass that knowledge over to another person. However, lets say... you met god, and Jesus, and they ate breakfast with you... You still would not be able to pass your "experience" over to someone else "equally" and "perfectly" in an objective manner, you would be using language, which is a sad representation of neurological states that are experienced, and each "word" on a language "draws" a different response from people, as people reflect on the "word" and how it has applied in their life, and what neurological states were experienced before with the use of the word. So, in short, Shay... I am 100% sure, that whatever "god" or "Jesus" you "think" you know exists, will "NEVER" be the "god" or "Jesus", that I may think or don't think exists, PERIOD. You build your god, in your own imagination, and that imagination is yours alone, so, attempting to proselytize others using your imagination, is abecedarian, if you are attempting to "pass" on universal "objective truth". Now, obviously, since we all know you can't possibly pass on objective truth, because you live like everyone else with subjective perception, you are appealing to "influence", and asking people to have "faith" in your words, because that's all you have - words.

Personally, I don't buy spiritual law because it has been promoted by people who make claims that their words are objectively true, and thus, they are either ignorant, liars, or deceivers, not the people I would be seeking advice from.


Shay706: "My ethics teacher told us a story about some company in Texas that was making people applying for a job with them,take a polygraph test before they were hired.One of the questions was,Do you believe in God?The people that answered no to the question,the test showed that they were lying.Even though they said no,something in them could not deny that God did exist.Isn't that a nice little story."

Yes, its a nice little "Story". As, its against constitutional law to polygraph anyone on the grounds of religion, if they are applying for any type of gov't job, that means any state or federal job. If a person, attempts to get a job, not based on the gov't, and they are being polygraphed, then its obvious that something isn't right. What, a grocery store owner wants to ensure the bag boy/girl doesn't have a relative living overseas, that could be a threat to the pickle market? Uh, Shay, why don't you tell us what company polygraphs, I am sure, you have that information at your fingertips, or... you don't, and your little story, is a fabrication to scare people into placing their "faith" in you and your "words", without any evidence - seems a pattern is forming.


Shay706: "If you do not want to believe in God,suit yourself,you can get forgiveness for this if you have a change of heart down the road,but you need to be careful about the blaspemy that some of you say on this site,and the pictures,Crrrrinnnge!The devils laughing and saying,"DANCE PUPPETS DANCE"Your choice to not believe in God should not mean that you should hate everything about God and Jesus!You are going to get a wippin for some of this stuff!GO ahead and insult me,call me names,throw pies in my face,I don't mind.I'm just trying to help my fellowman to find his/her way because I AM RIGHT!!!!!!!!Love to you all,shay706"

Well, Shay, if you ever have kids, and you ask them to not drink your favorite soda, and they share one when you are out working... are you going to demand that your grandchildren repent for your children's mistakes, and if they don't, you'll torture them brutally until they die? Well, your god does make those demands, and the torture doesn't stop at death, oh, no, its torture for all eternity, for "ONE" sin, that wasn't even theirs to own. Shay, keep your fear, enjoy living in perpetual anxiety, as for me, I will live a natural life, without trying to imagine how "terrible" hell can be, I'll use my imagination, to imagine, how nice not having a "hell" is.

.:webmaster:. said...

"How can you say that I am making a fantastic claim?I did not come up with this idea."

UFO's are visiting Earth. The Lochness Monster is real. Great is Allah. Zeus lives on Mt. Olympus. Ra is the master of the world. Sasquatch is roaming the Rockies.

You cannot say these are fantastic claims because I didn't think of them.

Christianity is emotional -- there is apparently very little, if any, logic going on when it comes to believing in talking snakes, flying chariots of fire, flying un-dead man-gods, pigs with demons, or people that take three day weekends in the belly of a fish.

It's sad...really, really sad.

.:webmaster:. said...

"I believe that they did come to earth and mated with women."

Angels get erections? I didn't know they had penises. Do some angels have vaginas, or are they all men? Do these horny angels have hairy testicles too? Is their DNA like ours, or would it be like a men raping chimps to generate a race of King Kongs?

Your posts inspire so many interesting questions.

.:webmaster:. said...

"My God DOES NOT promote harming babies."

Ps 137:9 — Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Isaiah 13:16 — Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Hosea 13:16 — ...they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Remember, HE is the same yesterday, today and forever. HE is not a man that HE should repent, or change HIS mind.

shay706 said...

Dave8,
I'm not being defensive by calling you Mr."BIG WORD USER",I was playing around.You see,I have a personality.I like to joke around and have fun.I was picking at myself when I called you that,because I don't have a problem admitting that you used some words that I have never heard of.Like I said earlier,Things are getting twisted into meanings that I did not imply.Now that ib being defensive.Oh,I didn't give you my job descpiption? Well,I am a nurse.You misunderstood my comment about having hours of talking time in patient's rooms.I didn't mean with the patients,I meant with other coworkers in the room with me,as the burn patient has many needs during their treatment,which requires several people.The patients really don't since thay are in comas.They choose to just listen quietly most of the time.No,I do not write prescriptions,but plaese pardon me for pointing out that your "supreme wisdom" just dropped a few points as I have noticed a couple of paragraphs down ,an error with the spelling of the word KNOWLEDGE.You spelled the word that you have ownership of KNOWELDGE.Oh,forgive me while I relish this moment.MMMMMM

OK,I'm back.Well,Well,dave,I just read the rest of your letter,and i'm so happy to see that you do indeed have a personality."nothing like putting the kids on fire,huh,shay.Now that is funny.Telling me to rob churches with Paul,was worthy of a chuckle as well.I have read the bible and still do read,and i do not choose to ignore any of it.Other gods,Egyptian gods.this is all topics of great interest to me.Me and my friends are always on the search for answers and mysteries of the unknown.I wish that I didn't have to go to work tonight,and could spend a while longer on this,but I have to go and get ready. I will respond to this tommorow evening when I am not rushed.Any literature from ancient times,is What I yearn for. Until later,shay706


Noticed a couple more spelling errors,but I'll let it go this time.




I will respond to all you others tommorow night too.Out of time.shay706

Dave8 said...

Shay706, I typically write in a cordial manner, and don't focus in on typos when I post a substantial comment, and the last reply from me, was pretty substantial.

Also, I typically draft a post in an electronically separate location and transfer the data content in a more secure mode to this blog - hence the typos. That being said, it appears you had a compulsive need to target typos, instead of the content, albeit you discuss you have other obligations near term.

Now, when someone focuses and targets another persons' post based on typos, it would seem only an idiot would return reply in a short post, with substantial typos themselves.

Shay706's 4/22/2006 5:25 PM post:

Spacing errors between the following words:

-Mr."BIG
-around.You
-see,I
-personality.I
-that,because
-of.Like
-earlier,Things
-imply.Now
-defensive.Oh,I
-Well,I
-nurse.You
-rooms.I
-patients,I
-me,as
-treatment,which
-people.The
-comas.They
-time.No,I
-prescriptions,but
-KNOWLEDGE.You
-KNOWELDGE.Oh,forgive
-moment.MMMMMM
-OK,I'm
-back.Well,Well,dave,I
-letter,and
-personality."nothing
-fire,huh,shay.Now
-funny.Telling
-Paul,was
-well.I
-read,and
-it.Other
-gods,Egyptian
-gods.this
-me.Me
-unknown.I
-tonight,and
-this,but
-rushed.Any
-times,is
-later,shay706
-errors,but
-too.Out
-time.shay706

Misspelled Words:

-ib
-descpiption
-thay
-plaese
-tommorow
-tommorow

Capitalization errors

-dave
-i'm
-nothing
-i
-this

Punctuation errors:

-shay. - missing quotation mark
-times, - unnecessary use of comma
-shay706 - no period


Improper use of pronoun:

-Me and my... - should be "I" and my...

**I disregarded fragmented sentences.

Shay's grammatical performance:

Words associated with typos: 111
Total words on post: 392
Error Percentage: 28%


Shay706: "No,I do not write prescriptions,but plaese pardon me for pointing out that your "supreme wisdom" just dropped a few points as I have noticed a couple of paragraphs down ,an error with the spelling of the word KNOWLEDGE."

Wisdom - "The quality of being prudent and sensible."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Someone who is being prudent and sensible, most likely regards content as much more important, than typos in informal discussion. However, it appears you have found typos fascinating, imagine that.

Shay706: "OK,I'm back.Well,Well,dave,I just read the rest of your letter,and i'm so happy to see that you do indeed have a personality."

Personality: "The complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual;"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

It appears, that one who is involved in the medical profession, would inherently understand that "all" people have personalities.

Shay706: "I have read the bible and still do read,and i do not choose to ignore any of it."

Do you read using eisegesis or exegesis?

Eisegesis: "Personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Exegesis: "An explanation or critical interpretation (especially of the Bible)."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Scholars, spend a lot of time, drawing direct meaning from the words of the bible, using historical references and research methods. They are supposed to refrain from painting the words of the bible with their subjective beliefs. In order to filter out as much "subjectivity" as possible, the scholar allows other professionals in their field to "peer review" their material, and search out inconsistencies.

The basic layman or religious leader is not held to the restrictions of exegesis. Such is the reason there are umpteen thousands of different christian sects in the world today, all claiming they have the "objective truth".

You, may suggest you "read" the bible, however, its more interesting to understand "how" you read the bible. If you are using eisegesis as you read your bible, then you are not searching out "truth" in the words, you are searching yourself for personal meaning, by applying yourself to the words and seeing if it makes sense or feels right. Logically, its a game of trial and error.

Those who use eisegesis, and refuse to learn and become more educated are stuck in a perpetual life of subjective truth, as their subjective views change very litte over time. Education and application of exegetical concepts brings one closer to objectivity with the writings of the bible. Albeit, the authors of the bible themselves held subjective views and true objectivity can never be gained.

Those who use eisegesis, and continue to study and become educated, never find objective truth. As their knowledge increases, the words in their bible take on different hues over time. Therefore, using eisegesis allows the layman and religious leaders the opportunity to keep the biblical words relevant, by allowing their followers to interpret the bible as they need. Still, one is choosing to read into the words of a book, what one wants to see, instead of searching for more objective truth.

Those who employ exegesis, and draw out the meaning of the words using critical scholarship, typically are educated enough to know, that the bible was not written by a "god", or divinely inspired by "one" specific "god". However, that doesn't mean one who uses exegesis isn't religious, it just means they are fully aware of the limitations of the bible in the search for god and meaning in life.

As much as I enjoy watching people search for wisdom, I find many follow the path of least resistance, and use eisegesis. I could take quote after quote you reference in the bible, and interpret alternate meanings, using my own eisegesis. What would that gain you or me? Me, nothing (notwithstanding, the amusement of mentally toying with someone who may appear obnoxious, bigoted, and immature), you, perhaps the understanding that your bible is an interpretive piece of literature, and not the perfectly adorned "objective truth" one would expect from a perfect deity.

If you respond to my post, do us both a favor and attempt to refrain from posting apologetic comments or creative interpretations of the bible. If you appear to want to engage in something more intellectually profitable, then I will reply, if not, I may not. Until then.

shay706 said...

dave8,
You are the one that was poking fun at my errors,which I announced in my very first post,that I wasn't a great writer.I guess my pointing out your flaws hurt your pride.I think that you must be a little on the INSANE side to make this list of my mistakes.If you have a wife,I pity her to have to live with a "man" with such competitive issues.I hope that everyone sees your share of spelling errors,so they can see that you are not as brilliant as you like to believe.I,unlike you stated my inperfections,and just felt that you needed to see yours too.I have been to college,and graduated with an associates degree,and now I am working on my Masters degree.I have decided to retake a few of the original core classes,just because I wanted to brush up on my englishand my spanish.I will check these bible quotes out,because I am so sure that you have added to and took out the whole story.Maybe you smacked your parents around when you were a kid,but that is a horrible thing.I do not ignore any of the bible and DO realize the existence of other gods,which I am pretty sure I mentioned in earlier comments.I will not be checking with you people for your hateful comments anymore,so don't bother with a reply.You think your smart,but I think that denying THE ALMIGHTY GOD that you will face one day,makes you "where the banner and crown"of stupidity.MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL! For someone to read the bible as you claim you have,and still deny GOD,shows something very strange about you.Could you be a Kennite?By the way, I didn't catch your job title either,Hopefully with your self righteous attitude,you don't have to deal with the public.You can't help people with yous views.Remember,EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,EVERY TOUNGUE SHALL CONFESS,THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.

Jim Arvo said...

shay706 said "I will not be checking with you people for your hateful comments anymore,so don't bother with a reply..."

I think it's time to start compiling a "fundy to English" dictionary, so that we can quickly and effortlessly decode comments such as shay's. I'll start out...

"you people are hateful" --> "I cannot provide any substantive arguments, so I will resort to attacking you personally."

"don't bother replying to me" --> "I've taken a thrashing here, so I'm going to escape with what little pride I have left."

shay706 said...

David,I have planted a seed,to try and help thes people see the light,but I guess that God has given them over to a reprobate mind,like he says he will do when people keep denying him,and living a life of disobedience.maybe you can do something with them,but God knows that I gave it a shot.Some people are just so arrogant and uncaring about others,that you can just pray that they will get their heads out of their rears,andstep down from their HIGH HORSE,and turn to GOD before they find out it's too late.GOOD LUCK! I am moving on.shay706

Jim Arvo said...

Shay, you are a bigot. I find your attitude thoroughly offensive and narrow-minded. You have nothing of substance to offer, so you hurl ugly accusations. You do a disservice to the religion you claim to promote.

Let me add to the list I began above:

"You people..." --> "I'm a bigot!"

shay706 said...

Boomslang,
Yes,I know that I will die and so will you.I don't think that people would be scared,if everything just shut off and you were forever unknowing of anything,just completely gone.Why would that be scary like you are trying to say.No,what is scary,is that this is not the truth,and unbelievers will go to hell.I can't make you see this,but you will see one day.GOOD LUCK WITH LIFE AND AFTERLIFE!shay706

shay706 said...

ben,I do not attend a church at this time because like I said before,I do not interpret the bible the same way as any organized religion that I have been involved in.You come off as a rebelious teenager to me.The "BIG BOY" cussing that you can do.The "KISSING ASS" comments,that does not go with anything that I am saying.I am sorry that your having a temper tamtrum because your grounded for the weekend for getting that pierced eyebrow.Use this time of grounding to study for you learner's permit.I WILL PRAY FOR YOUR CHANGE OF HEART.GOOD LUCK!

shay706 said...

webmaster,
What's real,real,sad,is that your going to hell if you don't change your life.Seek for your proof.God is sad by your rejection,and so am I.I can't get passed the walls that you guys have put up,but I gave it a try.Good luck and goodbye.

shay706 said...

jim arvo,I hurl ugly accusations.Start from the beggining and you will see where the ugly accusations started.I guess that you would not see it though,because "YOU PEOPLE" don't seem to see anything properly.You seem like a real nice guy NOT! But maybe you can get it straitened out some day.You are the ones that are biggots because you have such a dislike for the people on this site,FOR THEIR BELIEF IN GOD,that you try to say hurtful things,for that reason alone.We are only trying to help you,but you have this mean spirit about you,which shows that the devil is at work in your lives.My hope is that maybe someone on this site will have a change of heart from some of the christians that post on this site.Good Luck and goodbye.

boomSLANG said...

Hey Shay, before you "move on" for the eighteenth time, could you tell the class where "hell" is? I mean, we're gonna need some directions, right?.... so, where is it, Shay? WHERE in the hell is "Hell"? Is it a physical "place"?...y'know, like, can I find it using Map Quest? Or will jebus just tele-transport our "souls" to the waiting "lake of fire"?

BTW, what's a "lake of fire"?...?...? that's "L-A-K-E"....and what else?...."F-I-R-E" ? Um, did you fail science class, Shay? lol..... I mean, I'm just trying to figure out if I need to take my scuba gear...?...? or my fire extinguisher...?...? so which is it? ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

Shay, you have bludgeoned us long enough with your stupidity. Unless you can provide the class with *objective evidence of your biblegod; unless you can make illogically stupid concepts like "
hell" and "souls" make logical sense?..... I suggest you "click OFF", 'k, babe?


* When we speak of "objective" evidence, we DO NOT mean "it's true because Shay believes it's true"....::wink::

Jim Arvo said...

Shay: "I guess that you would not see it though,because 'YOU PEOPLE' don't seem to see anything properly."

That's such a puerile remark I'm quite happy to let that stand in all its glory.

Shay: "You seem like a real nice guy NOT! But maybe you can get it straitened out some day."

You know nothing about me other than what I've posted here. When people state their points of view here civilly, I reply in kind. When they are dishonest, hostile, or abusive, however, I show them somewhat less civility. In extreme cases (of which I consider you an example), I tell them bluntly that their presence is not welcome, and try to alert them to how offensive they are. Consider yourself alerted.

Shay: "You are the ones that are biggots because you have such a dislike for the people on this site,FOR THEIR BELIEF IN GOD,that you try to say hurtful things,for that reason alone."

That is patently false. I, and others here, consistently assert that your beliefs are your business. I hold nothing at all against people for their beliefs. What I take offense at is bigotry (casting ugly aspersions at an entire group), arrogance (thinking you are the exclusive holder of truth), condescension (thinking you are a conduit of great insights), and irresponsible credulity (not making any effort to critically examine your own claims).

Shay: "We are only trying to help you,but you have this mean spirit about you,which shows that the devil is at work in your lives."

I do not think your explanation is at all credible. First, if your intention was to "help", you would be concerned first and foremost with communicating clearly, which starts with listening. I see no evidence that you have tried to understand a single point that has been made to you. You seem to be only interested in repeating your dogma. In my opinion, that's usually a sign that you are looking for personal vindication, not the betterment of others. Also, your quip about the devil is an ad hominem attack that carries no weight whatsoever. It's a very poor substitute for rational argument. It's essentially and admission that you are out of ammunition.

Shay: "My hope is that maybe someone on this site will have a change of heart from some of the christians that post on this site."

The vast majority of the Christians who post here make our point far more vividly than we could ever hope to, and you are chief among them. You have consistently displayed narrow thinking and a fetid hostility that, frankly, gives me the creeps (to be perfectly blunt). If there was ever a shadow of a doubt that we have chosen a path of greater integrity than you, you've dispelled it. So, to say that you shot yourself in the foot would be a rather dramatic understatement.

Shay: Good Luck and goodbye.

Bye bye.

Kaleigh said...

I really don't have a lot to say. I just couldn't help but notice that you have a lot of anonymous posts from Christians, and I thought you might like to know that us Christians have names.

My name is Kaleigh Antoinette Lambrich. I'm a christian. I like your site.


Have a nice day.

Shannon said...

Madam Shay,

Many people on this site studied your god until their brains were fried and prayed to your god until their knees were raw and begged your god until their hearts were broken. They did everything that they could to get closer to your god. They did it for years or even decades. Until finally the weight of being a sinner and the ever-present unattainable, just-out-of-your-reach, ultimate worthiness got to be so heavy and exhausting that the thought of going to hell seemed like a reprieve.

Doubt is not a luxury afforded to Christians. Doubt belongs to the skeptic. And the first step towards freedom from religion is allowing the initial negligible bits of doubt in. The floodgates will open and you can say: ‘I don’t like that answer. It’s not only not good enough; it’s just plain wrong.’

I was only vaguely tortured with Sunday school for about year when I was six. As a youngster, I had a set of World Book Encyclopedia and I was left alone to get my own answers. So, by the time someone showed up with a bible, it fell short for giving any answers for anything.

The best thing I got; though, was not having Fear of Hell scare into me. Why doesn’t heaven stand alone? Why does your god have to use hell as a threat? How weak is that?

And heaven seems like a cruise ship vacation that would never end. Sure, the first two weeks or even couple of months would be cool but eventually the thrill would wear thin as the forever and eternity part kicked in.

Definitely, after you run into your ex-husband and the bitch he left you for. You see, they were believers. They worked out their sin with god and got a seat. It doesn’t matter that he was a deadbeat dad and that you had to work two, sometimes three, jobs to support your family.

And then you remember the nights that you rocked you son to sleep because, once again, his father forgot his birthday. Then you realize your son is not there. He’s not there because he was unbeliever regardless to the fact that he was a decent person and a great humanitarian. He was a doctor-not a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon, either. He had volunteered for years with Doctors without Borders. In his everyday practice, he ensured that those who need doctoring got doctoring and worried about getting paid later. To his patients, he was a paragon, an angel. Yet he was not perfect; he had issues in his private life but in due course he settled down with a partner for twenty years.

Then you meet your son murderer; he sits at the same dinner table as you do. Your son was murdered during a random car-jacking. The guy was high on methamphetamine. He got caught and was prosecuted. During his life-sentence, he sobers up and accepts Jesus in his heart and all his sins were forgiven.

The concept of heaven and hell is stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I have met more than my share of Christians who are completely removed from this world. They are waiting with bated breath for the day that god lights this place on fire like it’s a pile of useless kindling. I seen too many people who view this world like it’s god’s giant paint-by-numbers canvas. They never look for details. They just stand back far enough until it all blends together in to a picture with Christians on top.

A god is a place marker for the unexplained. He/she/it doesn’t answer anything. To contemplate god is to contemplate the next life and not this one. We do not need to hash out god. We need to hash out what value we can place on this life so we can stop killing each other over the next.

Dave8 said...

Shay706: "dave8, You are the one that was poking fun at my errors,which I announced in my very first post,that I wasn't a great writer.I guess my pointing out your flaws hurt your pride."

First of all, can someone "own" pride? Is it possible for you to "hurt" something I own, pride? Perhaps, you are trying to communicate that you believe you have somehow attacked something I associate with my self-esteem and therefore, have rendered a negative effect on my emotional/neural/homeostatic state.

I know this may be hard for you to hear, but your opinion of my grammar has no impact on my self-esteem. In order for that to happen, I would have to regard your opinion as having a higher level of value. I value logic, and thus your opinion has very little value accordingly as you have shown very little capability to form a logical stance for your beliefs.

Projection - "(psychiatry) a defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else."
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Why don't you take a psychologically positive approach and attempt to overcome what you obviously feel is a shortcoming, instead of taking the negative approach of projection. Is it not obvious, that I posted your typos and then additional logical discourse as well? And, the only content you have focused on in that post is related to your penmanship.

Shay706: "I think that you must be a little on the INSANE side to make this list of my mistakes."

Actually, I responded to your projection, sarcastically, thinking that you as a health care professional would make the connection and self-correct. However, it appears that my non-subtle point wasn't understood, such comes from someone who isn't capable of critical introspection. Sane people, appear insane to those who find themselves behaviorally defined in the DSM-IV.

Shay706: "If you have a wife,I pity her to have to live with a "man" with such competitive issues."

And, I pity you, if you have a husband that allows you to mindlessly go through life with your eyes wide shut. And, not that I want to go further into psychological discourse, but, are you experiencing another episode of projection. Have you spent an inordinate amount of time reflecting on the traits of a husband that you would feel more comfortable with? One who isn't capable of reconciling deeply laden subconscious conflicts is easily prone to finding an enabler to support their behavior(s). Again, not a psychologically healthy position, even for those who have to be exposed to such behaviors in society - or at work.

Shay706: "I hope that everyone sees your share of spelling errors,so they can see that you are not as brilliant as you like to believe."

Kind of sad in a way, do you even realize the immaturity expressed here, and the obvious projection. Need I suggest that you seek counseling from friends, family, professionals who can be frank and more objective with your behavior so that you may attempt to take corrective action? I know, you don't need corrective action, you are perfectly fine the way you are, everyone else seems to have the problem - right?

Shay706: "I,unlike you stated my inperfections,and just felt that you needed to see yours too."

Dave8 Post @ 4/22/2006 4:42 AM: "Now, obviously, since we all know you can't possibly pass on objective truth, because you live like everyone else with subjective perception, you are appealing to "influence", and asking people to have "faith" in your words, because that's all you have - words."

“...because you live like everyone else with subjective perception.” Subjectivity, by definition, means without total objectivity, without total objectivity, perception and experience changes and "perfection" isn't possible. Hence, none of us are perfect, and I included myself in that group, as one of the "all". However, in a society, in order to exist in some semblance of harmony, we agree to support certain values. Values, I might suggest, are not biblically derivative in many cases.

Shay706: "I have been to college,and graduated with an associates degree,and now I am working on my Masters degree.I have decided to retake a few of the original core classes,just because I wanted to brush up on my englishand my spanish."

Good luck. I do find it interesting that you are jumping from an associates degree to a masters degree without completing a baccalaureate degree on the way or perhaps you are in a program that continues through to a masters level certification. I would have suspected a BSN would have been more in order for one progressing through the ranks as a nurse seeking a master’s degree. The bilingual education will provide you more versatility in the field of nursing, but it will not guarantee you higher salary, just a tidbit of advice. You may want to seek out who your future employer will be, and see if your aspiration to have a bilingual skill is more important than completing the basic level of education to get you into the job market where you can continue education at your own pace.

Shay706: "I will check these bible quotes out,because I am so sure that you have added to and took out the whole story."

How can you be so sure, I have taken away or added to a story in the bible? I read them exegetically, according to the literal text, not according to what I may "want" the words to reflect. Associate the words in the bible according to the contextual era, in which they were written, compare the words from one book to another and see how the words are used differently. What this means Shay, is that the bible was written over thousands of years, not overnight or within a year by a perfect god.

If a god wanted to get their point across, one would assert that an omnipotent god could have produced the book without mankind and their obvious subjectivity challenges, and overnight so there isn't a few thousand years lost in the bible creation process. Again, mankind wrote the bible, not a perfect god, and if mankind wrote the bible, then its subjectively weighted and of little use, if one is attempting to find "objective" truth.

Shay706: "Maybe you smacked your parents around when you were a kid,but that is a horrible thing."

It appears that you allude the biblical passages that are posted above that call for immediate execution of any child how hits their parent - warranted. Can you think of any case, in which a parent abuses a child, and a child rebels by fighting off their parent? If so, should that child be murdered or put to death? The bible doesn't make such distinctions if reading the bible literally.

Shay706: "I do not ignore any of the bible and DO realize the existence of other gods,which I am pretty sure I mentioned in earlier comments."

You did mention that you believed in other gods, however, you failed to mention how you can tell them apart when you pray. How do you know you are not praying to Satan when you pray, or when you get a feeling to move you to make a decision, that its not Satan leading your to temptation? You can't possibly know, because you can't define god(s), nor identify them amongst themselves, except by you creating personalities for them and trying to imagine what kind of god they would be. That doesn't reflect what is, it reflects what you imaginatively "think" they are.

Shay706: "I will not be checking with you people for your hateful comments anymore,so don't bother with a reply."

At first, I was going to let your post pass, but, then of course I didn't want to leave you bitter, it appears you need all the help you can get. By the way, some of the regulars have pointed out, that making broad sweeping generalizations is being bigoted, and I agree. I don't "absolutely" associate you with "all" Christians, you have earned the respect due you, based on your posts alone.

Shay706: "You think your smart,but I think that denying THE ALMIGHTY GOD that you will face one day,makes you "where the banner and crown"of stupidity."

Illogical, you state you believe in many god(s), but can't define any of them. Then, you assert your "god" is the Supreme god of them all, and will be taking vengeance out on all of humanity that doesn't agree with your subjective belief.

Shay706: "MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!"

Are you giving your god a direct order? Or, is that something you "hope" for, since you have no way of knowing whether your god is real or not.

Shay706: "For someone to read the bible as you claim you have,and still deny GOD,shows something very strange about you."

Actually, anyone who reads the bible looking for "objective" truth will be disappointed. However, even though the bible was written subjectively by mankind, there are still Christians who claim the bible to be the "exact" and "perfect" word(s) or a perfectly objective "god".

Shay706: "Could you be a Kennite?"

Am I a descendent of Cain? It has been asserted by modern scholars that Jethro, a Kenite, was the 'father-in-law' of Moses. Do you suggest that I am a long lost relative of the man, who assisted in the creation of the Ten Commandments?

Historically, this clan split between the southern and northern tribe of Judah. So, if you want to assert my relationship to the Kenites, please assign a time-frame, as it appears you are woefully trying to make your point, with insufficient information. I could be an El supporter or YHWH supporter, or just one of the descendents, of those who assisted in the creation of Israelite Jurisprudence. Perhaps, you assert that I am a descendent of Cain, who slew Able and was noticed by Balaam in Judges 1:16 and Numbers 24:21-22.

The jurisprudence in the bible, was derived from the Laws of Hammurabi written by King Hammurabi ~1792 Before the Common Era. Moses distilled those laws of Hammurabi, and produced ten commandments from them, so that a primitive minded tribal society could begin their long slow ascent to a more stable and productive society. It appears that that region has never "truly" been stable, even to this day. Thus, many could speculate on the "value" of the Ten Commandments in the evolution of societal social structures over history, as the most instable regions of the world, seems to still reside in the regional area where these laws were enacted. I suppose, moving away from the region allowed a lot of the associated hostility to be removed to the point that society could come to some semblance of tolerance of others. Well, minus those who feel the need to impose their absolutist beliefs on others, and portray their beliefs as "objective" truth, that would be intolerant and bigoted.

Shay706: "By the way, I didn't catch your job title either,Hopefully with your self righteous attitude,you don't have to deal with the public."

Well, coming from someone who has the bedside manner, commensurate with interacting with comatose patients, I am overwhelmed by your insights. Perhaps, saying little is more effective than saying anything for some people. My job title is irrelevant, however, my occupational growth has allowed me to progress as a social scientist, communications engineer, and to a variety of other fields, to include medical. I consider myself "versatile", as I have the ability to span across many career areas under federal employment as needs arise, because I have the ability to make accurate observations and react appropriately.

Regarding my ability to engage people in society. Well, I like many, respect those who are educated enough to be tolerant of others. You know - the golden rule, thing.

Shay706: "You can't help people with yous views."

I can't help people, when I suggest that everyone has value, and the right to live their life freely, with enough liberty to find happiness, as long as they curtail hurting others? Some quietly ask others to be tolerant, and then there are those who are a little more vocal, and "demand" tolerance. I am more of the demanding type, if you treat others like dirt, then, remember the golden rule.

Shay706: "Remember,EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,EVERY TOUNGUE SHALL CONFESS,THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD."

According to the Jews, Jesus, was never Lord; are you tolerant enough to allow Jews their belief? Peddling fear isn’t a positive approach to gaining trust from others, it may garner short term gains for a religion, but long term, that approach will create mistrust and hatred toward those institutions and the people who promote such activity. Parents, who rear their children through fear, will also reap the backlash eventually - hence, the rule in the bible. I and many others don’t accept your biblical views, because “fear” is a tool for controlling and manipulating others – it’s a self-serving approach, not something many here are inclined to accept and fertilize. There are enough weeds in the garden of life, and it doesn’t take a genius to know the difference between the seed of a weed, and the seed of a colorful and pleasant flower. The key to a pleasant and productive garden is the removal of the weed population, so that real beauty can flourish. Shay, you get to choose how you live your life and how many weeds you grow and how many flowers; don’t blame others for the seeds you sow.

Bentley said...

Shay706, And you claim to be a NURSE???? You selfrighteous hypocrit, Jesus said that many will be healed in my name. How many people have you healed in Jesus's name, those poor poor patients. Since you seem to have a negitive attitude with whomever does no bow to your every whim and belief. I wonder how many patients you've accidently missed the proper doseage and let them slip off into oblivion? How about an Atheist, how many would you let slip into a coma, before you rang the bell? Huh? Can you honestly say that those thoughts have never occured to you? Or are trying dispell your past thoughts with a belief system to help you deal with past guilt? Am I close to being right?

Since you have such closeness with your imaginary God, why not just pray for your patients, since all you need is a little Faith. Then you can just send your patients home and say, God Healed them!

There's really no use for hospitals, when all anyone needs is a little Faith and a prayer,

Jesus will make everything alright!!! He always does...lol

Anonymous said...

One things for sure, if you don't believe in Jesus now, you'll believe after you die! Amd wether GW Bush is a Christian is entirely debateable...

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous: "One things for sure, if you don't believe in Jesus now, you'll believe after you die!..."

Is that really for sure, Anonymous? How very odd that is, for I'd say that the *negation* of your statement is far more of a sure thing! I say that because there isn't one iota of credible evidence that one can believe ANYTHING at all once one's brain ceases to function, and that is an inevitable consequence of death, is it not?

If you've got something that supports your assertion come on back and share it. Be well.

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Anonymous from 4/13/2006 (1:38 AM EST),

Somehow I just noticed your post way up there. You're definitely okay. Hope you stick around. (I also encourage you to pick a name for yourself other than "Anonymous"--it's helps to create cohesive discussions.)

Jenesia said...

Dave... I noticed that you made an educated presumption when saying that Kevin got his beleif and knowledge "from someone else" and was following something that some one else had given him. you wrote this 11/28/2005.

Where do you get your beleifs from?...Did you not say you took University and did research?...Is that not forming your own beleif by what other people beleive?

Dave8 said...

Jenesia: "Dave... I noticed that you made an educated presumption when saying that Kevin got his beleif and knowledge "from someone else" and was following something that some one else had given him. you wrote this 11/28/2005.

Where do you get your beleifs from?...Did you not say you took University and did research?...Is that not forming your own beleif by what other people beleive?"

Latent response, pardon. Well, yes, as a matter of fact, I do have to learn from my environment, I take my life experiences and apply it to the knowledge I am given, sometimes, the information provided me doesn't match up to my experiential knowledge.

The point being made, is, there is some information that we are provided that can not, be tested, by its own definition. For instance, someone says, they believe in a transcendent god. How does one "transcend" themselves to verify such information, they can't, by its very definition, to say one can, is illogical.

If I can't test, or compare information to things I have experienced to make educated guesses, and then test for validity, then, I hold that information in abeyance, until further information is forthcoming. Holding information, doesn't mean, I accept the information as legitimately true, it means, I have food for thought, until or if ever, I can connect it with something that I know based on verifiable experience.

If someone says that they have had an experience that makes then sense "god", then of course, one has to ask, how their Natural experience, was able to be touched by a "transcendent" deity, in "any" form. Some people claim they are "born" with knowledge, I disagree with that statement. Thanks for asking, have a great one.

Anonymous said...

I strongly believe that all believers and non-believers should live their lives believing in GOD or not believing whatever they may choose. You all should have better things to do than argue about this stuff on line. Everyone has a "chioce", so make it today and do not regret it tommorow, spend time with your loved ones and get off this stupid computer... Believe you'll go to heaven or believe you only have one life to live and live to the fullest because anyway we all do not have the right to judge one another, you guys don't owe each other nothing. Stop the arguements and just respect each others beliefs... May the truth be found for all of you belivers and non-believers...

Frank said...

Gee thanks for the advice! We'll gladly stop expressing our opinions and our thoughts when they stop spewing their self-righteous religious propaganda on every local TV and radio channel and purporting it as 100% pure fact. Talk about freedom of speach, when can anyone go to a church and openly express their opinion without being thrown out and ostrasized from the church?

Where's the freedom of speech in a church?

adam said...

im curious... what do christians believe happened to humans that died in the thousands and thousands of years before christianity? at least the ones that realize the earth is more than 4000 years old

Carl said...

Oh they were saved too, by burnt offerings and sacrificing and blood letting animals and circumcision, this was their atonement to god for their sins, on a daily basis.

So after 4000 years, they decided to offer God the ultimate offering, a human being, since this had never been done before, and Mary slipped by being stoned to death by having a baby out of wedlock, they put their insights into Mary's baby, to be the ultimate sacrifice.

They told Mary that her baby was sent from god and it was blessed, and then they told her baby named Jesus that he was blessed and he had no choice but to believe it himself.

So now since the ultimate human sacrifice was offered to god, we no longer have to send burnt offering daily to god to atone for our sins.

Thanks to Jebus!

God said...

After all, my lies have been uncovered!

Fear, mortals! Upon thee I shall call the grim and frostbitten kingdoms!

Anonymous said...

The aforementioned articles of proof can be found at defendingyourfaith.org. This proof is meant to provide you with information that can serve as grounds for why faith is very reasonable for the believer who chooses to follow Christ. Contrary to what many of you may think, these writings are posted not to win a "moral battle", but to win brothers and sisters in Jesus. Of course there is no physical proof of the soul nor the spiritual realm that God exists in. However, if there was, would there be anything called faith. Your works will not please God, but faith will because faith comes to those who seek Him, and if you "seek you shall find." In the end, it is everyone's ow choice to believe and some people will never believe no matter how much proof there is to support our loving Creator and Saviour. All that can be done is the presentation of evidence. God is the one who tugs at your heart.

emptycan said...

Annony said: "The Christian faith centers on the figure of Jesus Christ. Belief in Jesus, his deity, his sacrificial death, and his resurrection are essential to salvation."

Hey, let me ask you, a fundy crusader,: what is salvation?

Bentley said...

All that cut and pasteing, Damn!

It's all bunk, if Christ was real, then why does anyone need faith?

We need faith from what someone wrote 2000 years ago, that Jesus performed miracles?

Why do we need faith? Jesus supposedly said, if one had as much faith as a mustard seed you could say mountain fall into the sea, but yet he never performed that feat, to prove it to be true, yet we are to have faith it is true, so if you believe what Jesus said to be true, then cast a mountain into the sea, I'd be willing to accept an ant hill, apparently what Jesus supposedly said was not in any way true, and neither do you have as much faith as a mustard seed.

Then 2000 years ago, any woman with child out of wedlock got stoned to death immediately, unless of course there happened to be a virgin birth, as invented by her rapist, her priest, it was all a hoax invented by her rapist priest, and people sre still stupid enough to believe such nonsense.

You must remember although I know you do not want to admit it, but people 2000 years ago, did not think like we do today...duh

They thought diseases were caused by demons!

They thought that the heart was the center of all thought and emotions, surely God would have known it is the brain that is the center of all thought and emotions, this statement alone proves that the Bible was not written nor inspired by a creator God.

They also thought, like you, that the heart had strings. per. God tugging on your heart strings, how freaking ridiculous.

They also stayed drunken on wine and drugs, of course it's not mentioned in the bible, do you think they were that stupid to mention their vises?

Also Jesus was without sin because he was not born by Joseph, yet he was born of a woman, a evil, wicked, nasty, filthy, woman, less than man, according to your stupid idiot bible.

A woman was considered unclean with her ministration cycle, she was to be put in a holding cell for 7 days, and not looked upon by a man, if a man looked upon her then she shall be unclean for 14 days!

People say that a woman has more ribs than a man, that's simply not true they have the same amount of ribs, look it up yourself, I know you do not want to.

Then Jesus never sinned, but on the cross he supposedly said Olias, Olias, why have thou forsaken me, if he was god incognito, why did he loose his faith in his own god the father of himself? Fraud!!!!

Then Jesus never wrote any part of the bible, yet we are to have faith that the things written about him by other wino's accounts are true, it takes more than faith, it takes a huge wanton belief, more than any faith can provide.

Why don't you try to think what it was like 2000 years ago, there was no phones, no conveniences, no reliable form of communication, only heresay and rumor, and superstition, science was considered to be evil and of the devil.

You're trying to believe a myth that is impossible to prove, much less try to believe.

If there really was a god, that could create the whole universe in 6 days, yet he cannot create a book that can be proved with 100% certainty, without confusion and doubt and an overwhelming abundance of faith which according to Jesus, cannot be achieved, otherwise he would have demonstrated it for those idiots.

And then, if there was a God, why did he leave it up to man to explain his plan of salvation?

And how come it took this God 4000 years to come up with the Jesus salvation plan?

A god nor Jesus never wrote any part of the bible, yet we are to believe what those 2000 year ago imbeciles, wino's wrote without question.

If you really wanted to think about the whole thing you would soon realize it's all a bunch of bunk.

But you are a scared person, you are afraid of death, you are afraid of a hell being true, you're so afraid that if you see how ignorant the bible really is that you will go to hell.

I can tell you right now there is no hell, this is man's invention to keep you weaklings scared.

There's nowhere in the bible that says that a god created a hell, it's not writrten by a god nor jesus.

I put all my faith in what god and Jesus wrote in the bible only, which they never wrote any part of the bible, so I have no faith in a god or jesus.

You can believe all that nonsense all you want to, that is your right, but you cannot make any of it true, nor can you or anyone else prove one word of be bible to be true.

It never has been proven to be true and never will be proven to be true, you cannot prove a lie or myth, to be true, it has never been done, and you haven't proven one damned thing, except that you long for, you hope for, you wish for, you desire for, a myth and a man's fantastic lie, to become true.

You're not living in todays reality, you might as well start believing in and worshipping Harry Potter, because both are fiction of human's.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
.:webmaster:. said...

This site is for the encouraging of Ex-Christians. Copying and pasting posts are deleted on site.

Sorry.

Anonymous said...

Have the encourage to read facts that support the other side's opinion so that you may be educated.

Tim said...

This guy isn't just an unbeliever, he is an antagonist trying to prod a bunch of Christians into debating with him. Athiests mock God and think somehow by mocking God that He will cease to exist.

Atheist logic-
I mock God'
Therefore God doesn't exist.

Hey, you can't argue with logic like that.

Tim's Nightmare said...

Atheist logic-
God is Omnipotent.
God is Jealous.
God is easy to Anger.
I mock God.
God doesn't respond.
Therefore God doesn't exist.

Hey, you can't argue with logic like that, well, unless your god is a pussy - I'll buy that. My God beats your gods' ass on the cosmological playground, and my dad is better than your dad, and...

Tim's Nightmare said...

Okay, let me try once again...

God, of most holy gods, or any other god for that matter, fuck off... I'll wait for a response...

Anonymous said...

The only thing more sickening that Barker's blashemy is the Arminian panderers that dishonor Jehovah with their worthless theology. So let a Calvinist,who could care less that you end up in hell,tell you what scripture really says. Does God love you? Yes,if you are one of the elect and that is very unlikely. If so,you will be saved and hang your head in shame for your vile comments. If you are one of the non-elect-very likely-you will live out your decreed time and then be sent to the lake of fire to join lost angels and others of your ilk. God's justice will be glorified and the universe will never hear from you again. Your current worthless comments have no effect on the Deity. He laughs at you and holds you in derision. He has a purpose in your current existence and is using you for his ends in the same way he used a jack-ass. Only the jack-ass had better morals. Have a nice day.

Anonymous said...

Hey, annonymous - only thing I have to say to you is, BWA-AHAHAHAHAAAA! Har har! You're an idiot! Have a nice day!

-Wes(at)vip(dot)net ; because I have more balls than you so I will post my name and e-mail address...

Water isn't Flamable, said...

Oh no!!!!....please!..not THAT!...NOT the...the...the "Lake of Fire"?!!!!PLEASE...no Jebus, NO!...don't hurt US!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

Michael said...

All truth is God's Truth.

Think about that. Think about what that implies.

Truth and knowledge can only be called such if it is testable. The existance of God cannot, as of yet, be tested and therefore it cannot be said that anyone knows God is real. They are free to believe it.

Judaism and Christianity are testable. We simply look at our natural history and can see that the stories of creation and creation of man do not line up. They are wrong. Or... Untrue.

The scriptures themselves are riddled with problems. I challenge anyone to research the origins of the scriptures. You will find that we do not have ANY original documents. You will also find that the documents that we have vary greatly from each other. There are additions and plain old typos riddled through the whole of the New Testament. You will also learn that the New Testament was compiled by one sect of early christians -- the sect that one the majority of followers.

Likewise, the Jewish scriptures are also full of typos and additions/ommissions. Genesis, for example, was not written for hundreds of years after Moses. Think of it as a living document. It was put together at the same time as other documents to support each other.

Now think about this.
If it is not true it is not God's Truth.

The Bible tells us that the scriptures are 'God Breathed' and are useful for correction and instruction. (paraphrased). They are not. They were written by flawed men. mistakes are there and also personal motives.

If it is not true it is not God's Truth.

Since this is a comment, I apologize for the brevity,

Anonymous said...

Matthew 15:14
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

2 Corinthians
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Quote: "Finally, Christianity is harmful. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason."

I would have to object; do not forget the millions slain in the 20th century in the names of Darwinism, Nazism, and Marxism.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"I would have to object; do not forget the millions slain in the 20th century in the names of Darwinism, Nazism, and Marxism."

Please cite examples of cases in which Darwinism was/is the motivation for murder and/or genocide.

Nazism was begun by a man who considered himself a Christian (read Mein Kampf), and motivated a mostly Protestant Christian populace (German) to attempt the extermination of an entire race, because they were considered the enemies of God and the Aryan race.

I don't know enough about Marxism to speak intelligently about it.

However, the statement "More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason" is accurate. This includes Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and many others who have believed their god(s) commanded them to exterminate or enslave those not of their particular faith.

iam_sweet said...

I personally have read the entire Bible more the 10 times.
I have found the entire Bible harmonous, even though it was written by many different writers over a period of 1,500 years.
That alone tells me the Bible had to be inspired.
I have heard many, many people say that the Bible has errors and that it contradicts itself. I have asked them to give me an example. They never can. They admit that is was something that they had always heard. So, here goes:
If you think the Bible is in error on any subject, or that it contradicts itself, PLEASE let me know. I guarantee I will give you a correct understanding.
iam_sweet

.:webmaster:. said...

Okay, you can start by explaining all the contradictions listed on this page: click here.

Then take a few minutes with everything in this nice handy pamphlet: http://exchristian.net/pics/wallet_bible1.htm and here: http://exchristian.net/pics/wallet_bible2.htm

Please don't skip anything.

Then, for kicks, go to this page:click here.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"If you think the Bible is in error on any subject, or that it contradicts itself, PLEASE let me know. I guarantee I will give you a correct understanding.[Emphasis added]"

Based on the above statement, you reveal yourself to have already concluded that there are no problems. Therefore, of course no one will give you a problem that you are not able to weasel out of somehow. From theological gerrymandering to special pleading, you'll commit every logical fallacy in the book to prove that whatever is given to you is not a problem.

That said, just to add a couple to what the WM gave you, riddle me this:

According to 1 John 4:8, God is love.

We are told in 1 Cor. 13:4-8 that love does not seek glory, seeks not its own, endures all things, keeps no record of wrongs, etc..

Yet, in Isaiah 48:11, Rev. 4:11 (and others), we are taught that love does indeed revel in its own glory.

Also, love does keep record of wrongs. In Rev. 20:12 we learn that all this time, love has been keeping a record of all things good and bad, by which to judge the dead.

Let's take Noah's Ark. I wonder, did Noah have Polar bears or penguins on board? Perhaps he didn't need to, since perhaps enough survived on floating pieces of ice, right? Well, how about the wallaby, or koala, or the kangaroo? How about any other species not found in/around the Middle East?

How did all these animals get on Noah's Ark? If they didn't, where did they come from? Inevitably, and no matter which route you take, you will ultimately have to resort to special pleading - God did it because God could.

iam_sweet said...

To webmaster. I looked at the first of your supposed contradictions.
Jehoiachin's Age at Royal Ascension
II Kings tells us that Jehoiachin became king when he was eighteen while II Chronicles alleged that he became King at age eight:

II Kings 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became King and he reigned three months in Jerusalem
II Chronicles 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem.
===========================
ANSWER:
The "Codex Alexandrinus", Greek, dated in the 5th century, C.E. now located in the British Museum, shows that Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN years old.
The "Septugint", also written in Greek, a copy now locted in Gottingen, Germany, also shows Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN.
The "Syriac Peshitta", dated from the 5th Century, C.E., also shows Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN.
2 Kings 24:8 also shows Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN years old when he began to reign.
=========
All of the early copies of the Bible were copied by HAND. (There were no printing presses prior to 1450) It was easy for one error to be multiplied for each copy of the erroneous manuscript.
=========
Conclusion: The original Bible writings are not in error. This is what is called a "copy error".
=======
Suggestion: I would like to answer all that you have listed. This will take a lot of my time. Please select one for me to answer that you feel is the strongest one that contradticts the Bible.
==============
To Jeff:
I will answer your 'Contradiction" next. Please give me a little time.
===========
iam_sweet

boomSLANG said...

Hmmm, should we let him waste his time?.....or point out the obvious problem? Naaah..

Okay, carry on Soldier for Christ! lol

iam_sweet said...

To Jeff:
I looked at the scriptures you indicated on the subject of "love".
You imply that there is some contradiction between them. Could you please me more direct in pointing out the contradictions, this is so that I can be more direct.
Below are some facts on Noah's ark:
Design and Size. The ark was a rectangular chestlike vessel presumably having square corners and a flat bottom. It needed no rounded bottom or sharp bow to cut rapidly through the water; it required no steering; its only functions were to be watertight and to stay afloat. A vessel so shaped is very stable, cannot be easily capsized, and contains about one third more storage space than ships of conventional design. There was a door provided in the side of the ark for loading and unloading the cargo.

In size the ark was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. Conservatively calculating the cubit as 44.5 cm (17.5 in.) (some think the ancient cubit was nearer 56 or 61 cm), the ark measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.), less than half the length of the ocean liner Queen Elizabeth 2. This proportion of length to width (6 to 1) is used by modern naval architects. This gave the ark approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) in gross volume. It is estimated that such a vessel would have a displacement nearly equal to that of the mighty 269-m (883 ft) Titanic of this 20th century. No cargo vessel of ancient times even slightly resembled the ark in its colossal size. Internally strengthened by adding two floors, the three decks thus provided gave a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space.

Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.
The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by God were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.

These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.

Shannon said...

WTF over? Your omnipotent god managed to find people to channel his precious words through originally without fault but then neglect to ensure that any duplication of his precious words was not copied without fault?

So, the water outside the ark was habitable? It wasn’t brackish and muddy with loosened topsoil and full of uprooted plants and trees and the bloated, slimy bodies of all the dead unsaved animals and sinful people? 'Cause floods seem messy...even little ones like New Orleans.

Shannon said...

Sorry Boom, I know it was obvious but I like pick at scabs, too.

Anonymous said...

How can anyone miss copy the infallable word of god? It cannot happen, god will not allow his words to be miss copied or tampered with, unless of course the bible was written by men, not by any god.

Go away RETARD!!! you lose!!!!

.:webmaster:. said...

Iamsweet, my request that you address all these contradictions wasn't my idea, it was yours. Honestly though, I've already studied every one of them, and that's part of the reason this website exists. You, obviously, have never studied any of them.

This exercise, IAS, is for you. Don't be a typically mentally lazy Christian -- learn something.

boomSLANG said...

Iam said: "Suggestion: I would like to answer all that you have listed. This will take a lot of my time. Please select one for me to answer that you feel is the strongest one that contradticts the Bible."

Naah. Answer them all, please. Or wait.....or are you saying that your "time" isn't worth reconverting a whole website full of backsliden heathens in the name of Christ your Lord? God would be displeased if you attempt the easy way out. It'd be great if you could address these:

Please explain how snakes, smouldering shrubberies, and a donkey, spoke the human language.

Waiting.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"This is what is called a 'copy error'."

This is one of the many reasons why those who insist on maintaining a literal inerrantist view of scripture are wrong. Insistence that an imperfect process produced a perfect product is completely ridiculous.

"Could you please me more direct in pointing out the contradictions, this is so that I can be more direct."

Sure. 1 Jn 4:8 asserts that God is love. In other words, just as someone might say iam_sweet is human, God is love.

You do understand the difference between 'being' and 'having,' right? The passage does not say that God has love, or that God is loving, or that one of God's aspects is that of love. It says He is love.

Initially, I pointed out that according to Paul's description in 1 Cor 13:4-8, love 'vaunted not itself, is not puffed up' (does not seek glory, and is not proud), seeks not its own, and thinks no evil (keeps no record of wrongs). It bears, believes, endures all things.

With me so far?

Ok. Now, the next couple verses illustrate that God seeks His own glory. This is a theme that runs throughout the OT, and is expounded upon in the NT through the words of its authors ascribing glory to God. In Is. 48:11, God explicitly states He's shown the people of Israel (and by extension, Christians today) the various things described in the previous verses for His own sake, and His own glory. In other words, everything He did was done to glorify Himself.

In Rev 4:11, the author gives glory to God because God created everything for His own pleasure (to glorify Himself).

Still with me?

Ok. The final verse I quoted shows that God keeps a record of wrongs. However, I think a more complete context might help. Rev 20:12-15 describes the dead being judged by their works out of the books (records) kept by God. Those who don't measure up (committed wrongs) are cast into Hell.

Now, either 1 Jn 4:8 or 1 Cor 13:4-8 is false. They cannot both be true without nullifying the other verses. See below:

1. If God is love, and love does not glory in itself, then Is. 48:11 and Rev 4:11 cannot be true.

2. If God is love, and love keeps no record of wrongs, then Rev 20:12-15 is false.

Is that complete enough? There are a large number of verses and problems to choose from, but to keep things manageable I've chosen just these two problems and these few verses.

Now, on to the Ark. Oy! Where to begin?

Your description of the Ark's construction is entirely irrelevant to the question. The Ark could've been the size of Saudi Arabia and the question still stands. However, it appears the relevant portion of your post is as follows:

"With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required."

First off, which 'investigators' are making these assertions? Second, you seem to be both affirming and denying evolution in the same breath. Third, you're dismissing scientific evidence for the ancestral decent of marsupials. Marsupials already existed prior to Noah's flood, but none of them existed in the Middle East. The nearest common ancestor for placentals (horses, humans, etc.) and marsupials (those I already mentioned and more) existed roughly 100 million years ago, and shared a parallel evolution from then on. You're saying there is a common ancestor that existed within the last 4000 years. Accordingly, unless you ignore the evidence (or create your own) there had to be marsupials such as those I mentioned on the Ark.

I came across this article that illustrates this problem nicely. The website is creationist, and makes for hilarious reading, but it demonstrates the kind of scientific hurdles creationists have to jump (and how they do) in order to account for this disparity.

In the short time I had, I found no creationist website that had an answer for how kangaroos got to the Ark, though they all had answers relating to how they got to their respective habitats after the fact. From citing migratory habits to outrageously claiming there was an ice age less than 4000 years ago (the last one was roughly 10000 years ago, and didn't cover the ocean leading to Australia), they'll use anything - no matter how ridiculous - to explain how their Bible is not wrong.

iam_sweet said...

To BoomSlang:
To your request, "Please explain how snakes, smouldering shrubberies, and a donkey, spoke the human language."

Did you ever hear of Edgar Bergin and Charlie MaCarthy. Charlie was a 'dummy', but Edgar Bergin was so clever with speaking with out moving his lips that it sure looked like Charlie, the 'dummy' was speaking.
The Bible tells us of many Spirit Creatures (angels and demons) all of them invisible, the chief demon being Satan, the Devil.
Being invisible, it would be very, very simple for Satan to move the snake's mouth and make it appear that the snake was talking.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"Being invisible, it would be very, very simple for Satan to move the snake's mouth and make it appear that the snake was talking."

Wow! Special pleading with extra cheese on top. No wonder you've never faced a biblical problem you couldn't solve.

Thanks for the chuckle, though.

Jerry said...

For the determined believer "God" can fit the bill for all things imagined.

Therefore G-O-D is all things, past future and present.

A god can be made to be present for all things that has ever happened and will happen whether for good or bad.

To the believer, god is all things and god is envolved everywhere, to a believer a god cannot be disproved.

To a believer, their imaginary god will always provide the necessary answer that they seek and want for their own convience, so as not to disrupt their imaginary belief in their imaginary god friend.

iam_sweet said...

To Jerry:
If you were walking in the deep forest and came upon a large beautiful home that was nicely taken care of; would you believe that it just came about by accident?
The Apostle Paul reasoned similarly when he stated: "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." Hebrews 3:4
Do you agree with his logic? Mankind has experienced some 2000 years of scientific advancdment since that verse was penned. Does anyone still think that the design evident in nature requires belief in a Designer, a Creator--God?
Even in industrialized countries many people would say yes. In the United States, for example, a survey conducted by Newsweek magazine in 2005 found that 80 percent of people "believe that God created the universe." Is this belief due to a lack of education? Well, do any scientists believe in God? The science journal "Nature" reported in 1997 that almost 40 percent of biologists, physicists, and mathematicians surveyed believe in a God who not only exists but also listens to and answers prayers.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"In the United States, for example, a survey conducted by Newsweek magazine in 2005 found that 80 percent of people 'believe that God created the universe.'"

Non-sequitur and argumentum ad populum ad absurdum. Public opinion does not determine the scientific validity of a proposition. If the public was comprised of scientists with the requisite expertise perhaps, but that's not the case.

"The science journal "Nature" reported in 1997 that almost 40 percent of biologists, physicists, and mathematicians surveyed believe in a God who not only exists but also listens to and answers prayers."

Misleading. While 40% of the scientists surveyed may believe in a personal deity, it does not follow that they are creationists/ID proponents. In the survey cited below (follow the link), 95% of scientists surveyed subscribed to either theistic or naturalistic evolution, with only 5% lending credence to the creationist view. (NOTE: I couldn't find my original reference due to a network error so this article will have to suffice.

.:webmaster:. said...

2000 years ago 100% of all Jews and Christians believed that the Earth was the center of the universe.

So much for the validity of majority beliefs.

iam_sweet said...

= Speaking about the "Majority"
2000 years ago, the majority believed the earth was "flat", but the Bible said that it was "round" (like a sphere). The majority also believed the earth was held up by a Large Turtle, but the Bible clearly stated that the "earth hangs upon nothing".

As to Demon Voices:
A book, "Evidence of Satan in the Modern World", tells of many factual accounts, not only of demon assaults, but also of angry conversations between attempting exorcists and the wicked spirits.

In many cases the demons harass people by talking to them; such persons report hearing “voices.” This is called “clairaudience” in spiritistic circles, and spiritists have written a number of books at the dictation of demon voices. But these voices harass many persons, inducing them to violence, murder and suicide. A Singapore man heard a spirit voice for four days telling him to commit suicide. He did. His wife said that her husband had told her of the spirit’s commands, but she treated it as a huge joke.

The Chicago News made an investigation of spirit phenomena and reached the following conclusions: ‘As to the voices that so many are bending ear to catch, I have learned that they are more likely to suggest evil than good. . . . Once a communication is established it takes a positive thought to fight off these “voices” or forces of evil. . . . It is never safe to yield your will, your soul or individuality, into the keeping of these unearthly powers. . . . I found one woman who was led by the “voices” to kill her little girl by drowning her in a bath tub. . . . I found a man who said the voices told him to strike a young man that he met coming out of a restaurant. He did so. . . . There are hundreds of similar instances.’”

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