7/21/2006                                                                                       View Comments

Some Tough Questions For Christians

Here are some tough questions for the Christian that I posted on my other Blog, depending on his or her particular theology:

Can God be surprised? Surprise is the basis of laughter. Can God laugh?

Can God think? Thinking means weighing alternatives. But if God knows everything then can God think?

Is God metaphysically free? Did God ever choose his character and his moral standards? Does God ever know what it is to make a choice?

Is God Good?

If God didn’t need anything, then why did he create us? To say God’s nature is love and he wanted to share his love with us doesn’t help for two reasons, 1) Most of us will end up in hell, which means he knowingly created heaven for the minority on the screams of billions of people who end up in hell; 2) If life was already perfect for God, then God did not need to share any more love with anyone else. Why break this purported perfect harmony for the pain of dealing with us and the pain of those who end up in hell?

Once God decided to create us, if he planned everything in advance as the Calvinist believes, or if he foreknew everything would happen with certainty, then why bother creating us? What’s the point?

What is the basis of God’s foreknowledge?

If God gave us free will and he knew we would abuse it so badly, then why give it to us? Isn’t it incumbent for the giver of a gift to be responsible for whom he gives that gift? And isn’t the giver of a gift blameworthy if he gives gifts to those whom he knows will abuse those gifts? Should we make drugs available to 8 year olds and alcohol available to 6 year olds? Would you give a razor blade to a two year old?

Can God create free creatures who always obey? For the Calvinist this would’ve been no problem, so why does it bring God more glory to decree what we see here on earth and later in hell, than one where we always obey? For the non-Calvinist Christian, what is different for those in heaven such that they will have free will and never disobey? Will there be sin and another rebellion in heaven? Why not? And if God can make people obey in heaven then why didn’t he first create us such that we always obeyed here on earth too?

Did God foreknow that Adam and Eve would sin? If so, then he would also know in advance the reasons why they chose to sin. And if he knew in advance what those reasons were, then he could’ve corrected them and/or provided them more evidence to believe him. If, for instance, Adam and Eve needed more evidence that God meant what he said if they eat of the fruit, then couldn’t God have given them more evidence, like he purportedly did to Moses and Gideon who both doubted? To withhold this needed evidence is to be at fault for doing nothing to help Adam and Eve in their temptation.

Why didn’t God create us with a propensity to dislike sin? We have an aversion to drinking motor oil. But we could still drink it if we wanted to. Why couldn’t God have created in us an aversion to sin like we have an aversion to drinking motor oil?

Why did God create the universe with a big bang and the slow long evolutionary development of galaxy, star and planet formation, and then all of a sudden “switch gears” and instantaneously create Adam & Eve in an instant? Was it harder to create the universe than the peak of his creation such that it took him billions of years to create the stuff of the universe but a snap of his fingers to create the apex and crowning jewels of his universe?

Why is a supposedly omniscient and completely understanding God so barbaric, even allowing slavery, knowing full well the suffering people would experience because it wasn't one of his ten commandments: "Thou shalt not own slaves nor buy and sell them for profit."

Why is a supposedly omnipotent God not able to stop the 2005 Indonesian tsunami that killed a quarter million people before it happened? If he had stopped that underwater earthquake from happening none of us would have known that he did and hence he wouldn’t have revealed himself in any ways he might not have wanted to. Since all it would have taken is a “snap” of his fingers to avert that tragedy then isn’t he morally responsible for it? If we were God we would be morally obligated to do so. Why isn’t God? And if he is morally responsible for it, then he wanted it to happen for some greater good. That’s right, he wanted it to happen. What is the greater good here?

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Here's another good one by Dagoods. How is it that one member of the trinitarian Godhead can intercede on our behalf with another member of the Godhead? Does one member of the trinity, Jesus, know or want something that God the father doesn't? see here.

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good post. Great points made.

emptycan said...

John, it's a nice post.

I am waiting for xtian answers... but actually I know what their answers will be like...it is "man cannot know the mind of god...blah, blah."

ha ha ha funny... how do they know whether man can know the mind of god or not. And how do they trust the unknowable god...ho ho ho...ha ha ha...he he he...........

emptycan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tim Simmons said...

"To withhold this needed evidence is to be at fault for doing nothing to help Adam and Eve in their temptation."

Even worse, why put a temptation in front of them anyway? There was no reason for the tree to be there except to tempt (test) them. But would God do it knowing they would fail? If so, I'd say God is very bad. If he knows all as in what each choice would bring, he could have made a better choice. One would be not put a tree there. Would a father put a loaded gun on a coffee table to see if the 3 year old would shoot it? rediculous.


tim

emptycan said...

I am quite much interested in the fact that the three satanic monotheistic religions (judaism, xnity, islam) were from middle east.

What made that possible? The weather or terrain or what?

Why are they all so bloody and cruel? Why have they shed so much blood in the name of their loving(?) god?

Why the believers of the three religion only convert within the three religions? Why do they not explore the options of other religion like buddhism or etc.?

freedy said...

I have two answers,...(1)god is all knowing and powerful, but like us,he enjoys the drama and action of a fallen inperfect world!
# (2) He's not all knowing,and/or powerful,but a lot more creative and resouceful then me.(I can't even draw a decent stick man)

* I personally think the god of the bible is an ego driven drama king,violent,sadistic and petty.

Troothsayer said...

I am quite much interested in the fact that the three satanic monotheistic religions (judaism, xnity, islam) were from middle east.
Emptycan.

I have often wondered about the very same thing! It truly seems BIZARRE !! Could it be that living in the filthy harsh desert, no greenery or rain can have this effect on people? If you consider folks who lived in Europe at the same time. "Pagans" which means pastoral ie: farming and living off the land, reliant & respectful of the seasons and the earth, seems to me they had far more to do than to eke out an existance with a few goats & camels to their name. For one thing, they didn't have time to write stuff down. Everyone knows a farmer starts work @4 am & works their butt off all day! Wereas yr average desert arab/semite male had pretty much nothing going on. The women did most of the hard labour!, with the result that males had an enourmous propensity for booze & drugs with all that time on their hands. Hence all the absolute twaddle that is the OT. Also their deep desire for war & fighting (nothing has changed to this day:).I can't see a pagan farmer wasting his time on war, which he only would have had time for in the winter months, but staying warm in front of the fire nibblng on his winter larder appears to have been a much better option. (fair enough,the Vikings, a lot later in European history must have caught the war virus!).
Seems that the combination of all these elements are the net result of what we sit with today.The ongoing Middle-east crisis and the growing insanity of Fundies,be they xtain/islam/judiasm, all offshoots of the same nasty weed. If any scholarly soul has some insight into this, please clue us.

Wally said...

Opium, heroin, hashhish, cannabis, cocaine, wine, liquor!

The middle-east has been the main trade route for drugs, since the early ages.

Naturaly anything written about drugs in the bible is going to get omitted early on, remember the bible has been filtered thousands of times.

Anonymous said...

John,

I think several theological speculations can be applied to your questions.

1). The omni-attributes only apply to what is actually possible or feasible for God.

2). This may not be the Best of All Possible Worlds, but the best WAY to the Best of All Possible Worlds.

3). Process may be the best, most feasible way for God to create and destroy evil.

4). God needs nothing, but is free to express his nature and love in creation. One cannot give what one does not have, etc.

5). God sees Free Will as such importance, he gives it knowing it will result in sin.

6). If one assumes God ought not create or give free will because it will result in sin, evil, and condemnation gives Hell "veto power" over God.

7). The beatification of those who belong to Christ in heaven precludes the problem of sin in heaven because a). we can become like Christ due to his finished work and b). the ultimate defeat and quarantine of evil will have occured.


Kevin H
8). The Persons of the Trinity are one in Nature or Essence, but there are distinctions in function.

I think you should reconsider omnipotence. There are things that God cannot do. He cannot lie, he cannot make square circles, and apparently he cannot create a world of loving relationship with man without free will and the resulting evil.

Anonymous said...

oh my gosh.. you are so far away from God, i love my God and your post made me cry.. not because you are questioning everything i believe but because you are so far away from God, sin and satan has definietly Got you, but you can still be forgiven because God still loves you.. as you said most People go too hell... but you have the choice! Choose Jesus and be forgiven because you can be one of the few who go to heaven and live with the perfect God forever and ever. if were given no right too choose then what sort of existance would we be.. God wanted us to pick him and love him and steer away from evil not us to live under his ruling because we do not know any other way. we would be joyless because we wouldnt know the meaning of sin, satan (eg pain hurt) we live and feel like God intended..
Do not test or Question your God!


What have you got too lose! what if u die and you find out god is real! you will surely be doomed to an eternity of pain.. God is good and he loves you! What have you got too lose! please follow the lord and if not do that STOP QUESTIONING THE LORD GOD!!! if you choose to not believe him thats ok! (well not really) but its better you not believeing him and keeping it too yourself opposed too you not believeing it and posting you thoughts of this horrible veiw point you have on christianity on the internet so Christians like my self can stumble upon in by accident. What if someone was debating their faith and u made them give up their faith! Do you want to be held accountable for someone elses suffering!!! even if their isnt a god (which there is) christianity gives people hope in the tradgic world we live in! and what harm is that doing too you! goodnight and god bless ill be praying for you and this horrible website that it may be ceased to be seen by anyone and more importantly that you find peace with god. You can question God and his intentions but FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS. you could ask me all the questions in the world and i would dismiss everyone of them because i ave FAITH and FAith is all i need, God Bless Lost Sheep.

John W. Loftus said...

So, the bottom line is that I can do things that God cannot do? And I can know things that God cannot know? Interesting. What then becomes of God's omnipotence and omniscience?

John W. Loftus said...

Should I really stop questioning? Isn't that a question? and wasn't that a question? (etc) I may as well die first. If God is the most intelligent being then why should he be afraid of questions? Why should you? (More questions)
;-)

Piprus said...

Nice reply, anonymous, it sounds like you've created a god in your own image.

John, this is a good post. It succinctly summarizes the major issues that led many of us to rid our lives of xianity.

Lorena said...

Anony:
"you can be one of the few who go to heaven and live with the perfect God forever and ever"

Lorena:
Why wait until I die. I can just live a happy, religion free life right here right now.

you cried when you read the post because your "loving" god is scaring you to death with the threat of hell.

If god does exist, I believe, she wants me to forget about her, the bible, church, and all the hate I was taught in the name of christianity.

Sorry you live such a miserable life ,anonymous. It doesn't have to be that way.

Anonymous said...

I am a Korean.(perhaps, you don't know my country.) I'm not Christian. My religion is Buddhism.
But, I think many religion give pain to people.

In Korea, there is not Freedom of religion(tolerant).

For example.
When I was 12 years old, my climates(they are Christian) saw my armlet.
MY armlet is yumjoo.
(Yumjoo is a kind of Buddhist's symbol.)
They said to me, "Buddhism is superstition". And they said to me, "Buddha is Satan. He is a liar."
I didn't understand their words. I said to them, "Why? Why do you said to me so? Jesus is a holy man, Buddha is a holy man, too."
They said to me, "No, Jesus is God. But Buddha is Satan. Your religion is Satan's. You must go to church, or your family fall to hell."
They didn't know their behavier is violence.
Do you think my words are lie?
NO. it is true.

90's is terrible time, specially, to "not christian people."
If you like Korean "temple stay"(Buddhism meditation), perhaps, you know "Hwageasa"
DO you know the temple was burned twice? Ask to monk in Hwagesa. They said to you, my ward is true.
Korean police gueses a criminal is Christian.
In fact, Many Buddhism temple was burned. And Buddhist statue's neck was cut.
In 90's!

Criminals are not arrested.
Not Christian people guess "Same Christian protect criminals and hide them."

And, Korean Shamanism was attacked, too.
"Jangseung" is a signpost and a Korean shamanism's symbol. The "Jangseung" was destroyed by Christian. They cut necks of many "Jangseung".
And many "Dangjip" was burned.
"Dangjip" is a small temple for small gods and goddess.
Many Shaman was insulted in practice places by Christian.
Christian told that the Shaman believe Satan.
But Shamans did not insult Christ. And they did not blame Christian behavior.
They think Christian is a child of Dan-goon, too.
(Dan-goon is the great spirit in Korea. He is a spirit of mountain.
Many Koreans believe that they are child of Dan-goon.)
So, they forgive Christian. They hope, Christians know their behavior is violence.
But Christian's violence is not stop. It is continue.

If you are "christian school" student and your religion is not religion is not christian (and you are an atheist) , your school time is terrible. Your religion will be insulted by teachers. And you must go to church. You do not so, teachers cut your grade. They will stand you at many students, they will attack you with physical or mental means.

Recently, a student protest those practises. (His name is "Wi-Suk, Kang")
He had been fasting. It means to oppose their violence.
And a teacher was resign in the Christian school.
He is a minster too. And he agree with Kang. His name is "Sang-tae, Lew"
But they was blamed by Christian.
Present, Kang is graduate from highschool. He is an university student.
Lew throw his ministry, himself.
Lew (he agree with Kang) is not a teacher and minster, in present.
He deep disappoints Christian school and church.
And, Nothing change in Christian school.

It is not past thing.
In recent, a korean minister told that "Yundng hangjin" is stopped.
"Yundng hangjin" is a lamp parade.
(Yundng is a kind of lamp. It is sillier to a lotus.)
It is festival for Sakyamuni's birthday.
Many Buddhist love this festival.
I love this festival. It is very beautiful.
But the minister told that "Buddhism is superstition. So, the festival must stope!"
in Korean Christian newspaper!

And some minister have fast. He said "Kangleung Danoe is stopped!"
*Danoe is greate Korean traditional festival.Many Shaman participate in the festival.

Why? Because of he think "it is superstition".
Yes, he believes so. If it is not christ festival, it is Satan's festival!
Yes, Christians believe only, only their fate is justice and religion.

I don't believe religion is love.
Specially, I don't believe Christian love.
Never, Never!

Marianna Trench said...

" ... you will surely be doomed to an eternity of pain.. God is good and he loves you! ..."

Anonymous, can't you see the contradiction in terms here? A perfect deity would not need to be worshipped by its creations, and a loving deity would not send anyone to an eternity of pain just for having a rational, inquisitive mind.

You don't need to worry about the ex-christians who post on this site deconverting your fellow cultists. You're doing a fine job of that all by yourself by pointing out that the god you claim to believe in is a psychotic, sadistic egomaniac.

Dano said...

To any Christians out there!

Do you really want to end up with a mind that functions like Anonymous above^?

It's not to late, get out now, or you could become this poor soul.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Anonymous wrote:
oh my gosh..................................................................you could ask me all the questions in the world and i would dismiss everyone of them because i ave FAITH and FAith is all i need, God Bless Lost Sheep.(Anonymous)

Dan (Wondering if there is any hope for cult members that are so completely ensnared)

anonymousanounymousanonymousanonymousanonymousanonymousanonymousanony said...

anonymous said,

oh my gosh.. you are so far away from God,

(Ok, where is your God? Since you know so much about your invisible god, where is he? Not in your heart, your heart is a pump, it does not store deities. Tell us the exact location of your God. I know, your god lives in a book.)


i love my God and your post made me cry.. not because you are questioning everything i believe but because you are so far away from God,(again how far away is your god, exact location? miles away, light years, where is he/ her/it?)


sin and satan has definietly Got you, (which sin and satan, where is satan located? exact location, in your heart, in the bible perhaps?)

but you can still be forgiven because God still loves you.. as you said most People go too hell... but you have the choice! Choose Jesus and be forgiven because you can be one of the few who go to heaven and live with the perfect God forever and ever. (live forever with you? not hardly, who do you think you are a saint?)


if were given no right too choose then what sort of existance would we be.. God wanted us to pick him and love him and steer away from evil not us to live under his ruling because we do not know any other way. we would be joyless because we wouldnt know the meaning of sin, satan (eg pain hurt) we live and feel like God intended.. (speak for yourself, I live by my own common since, I do not need a book written over 2000 years ago to tell me how to live or what is right and what is wrong, apparently you do.)

Do not test or Question your God! (which god? name your god, god who?)


What have you got too lose! what if u die and you find out god is real! you will surely be doomed to an eternity of pain.. God is good and he loves you! What have you got too lose! please follow the lord and if not do that STOP QUESTIONING THE LORD GOD!!! if you choose to not believe him thats ok! (well not really) but its better you not believeing him and keeping it too yourself opposed too you not believeing it and posting you thoughts of this horrible veiw point you have on christianity on the internet so Christians like my self can stumble upon in by accident. What if someone was debating their faith and u made them give up their faith! Do you want to be held accountable for someone elses suffering!!! even if their isnt a god (which there is) christianity gives people hope in the tradgic world we live in! and what harm is that doing too you! goodnight and god bless ill be praying for you and this horrible website that it may be ceased to be seen by anyone and more importantly that you find peace with god. You can question God and his intentions but FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS. you could ask me all the questions in the world and i would dismiss everyone of them because i ave FAITH and FAith is all i need, God Bless Lost Sheep.

(where did you hear such foolishness? a preacher perhaps? a religious fanatic? Did a god drop put of the sky and tell you this garbage? No!! you heard it from another HUMAN, not from a god, but someone reapeating garbage out of a BOOK, A BOOK THAT A MAN WROTE!!!!)


(Faith can move mountains, you've been told, but no mountain has ever been moved, yet you insist in believing in invisible faith! WHY? are you that dense?)

Go back and read what you typed, nothing you wrote, can be proved.

Do you enjoy typing nonsense that you've heard from others, and telling us to believe all the things you wrote that cannot be proved, do you really think we are that stupid?

Why have you allowed yourself to believe such nonsense? Is it because you have been scared into belive you will go to hell if you do not believe in the bible nonsense?

So according to you,

Believe in god and jesus or burn in hell, because god loves you!

Do you really believe there exists a god that would send anyone to hell just because of what they choose to believe?

Is there a god that friggin ignorant?

A god that will send people to hell just because they do not believe in him, how friggin ridiculous!

If there exists a god that low, that conniving, that ruthless, that desperate, that egotistigal, that uncaring, is that the god you worship?

God loves you, but will send you to hell if you do not believe in him or jesus, does that message sound very intelligent to you?

Does that sound like the message of an all loving god, are you really that dense?

Go back and spread your message over and over and over and one day you'll come back and say what a friggin fool you have been to have believed in such foolisness.

Some people figure it out, some like you refuse to see how foolish the garbage that you wrote makes no sense and not one word of what you wrote can be proved by you, or anyone else that has ever lived on this planet.

Anonymous said...

John wrote:

"So, the bottom line is that I can do things that God cannot do? And I can know things that God cannot know? Interesting. What then becomes of God's omnipotence and omniscience?"

KH> there are things you can do that God cannot. You can lie. You can die. You can be limited and contingent.

Once again as I said in my post, omnipotence (the omni-attributes)only extend to what is actually possible. All the omnipotence in the world cannot make a square circle.

Kevin H

booms said...

"All the omnipotence in the world cannot make a square circle."

And all the wishful thinking in the world cannot make love that is based on conditions, real.

John said...

I don't think that God laughs, because that would imply an unexpected event or statement on the part of ingenius former Christians that finally discovered the truth that managed to elude billions of people for nearly 2,000 years. I'm sure that by now, the same tiresome questions that atheists ask no longer amuse Him.

Foreknowledge of the future means that God knew in advance that the World Trade Center was going to be attacked by extremist Muslims. But let's face it, he did allow you to bomb Japan twice with Atomic weapons. Expecting Him to protect you when he didn't protect them is selfish.

Dano, I'm sure that Christians the world over will thank you for saving them from their feeble minds, especially those Mexican Catholics who are slowly taking over your country while you sit back thinking that your intellect is vastly superior to theirs. Today, they're picking your fruit and taking your garbage. Tomorrow, you'll be doing it for them.

.:webmaster:. said...

Jesus died, right? Wasn't he god?

Jesus lied didn't he? He said he would not go down to Jerusalem and then he did go down.

Jesus was limited wasn't he? He said his Father was greater than him (Jesus).

Jesus was contingent too. He cried out: "Why have you forsaken me?"

Apparently god can do all the things John can do. He can lie, die, be limited and be contingent.

I guess you can have a square circle.

In Christianity, you can have everything you want... except reality.

Anonymous said...

Believe in god and jesus or burn in hell, because god loves you!

.:webmaster:. said...

Remember John,

All things are made for HIS pleasure, or by HIS will, whichever version you prefer (Rev 4:11). Nothing exists except HE willed it.

I guess that would include atomic bombs and 9/11 attacks.

freedy said...

Annoy-mess,...You said we should keep our unbelief to ourselves,for we will be accountable to jehova and jesus and end up in hell.
What if your wrong and "allah"is the real god? Might thee be accoutable to him, and end up in unending pain and torment?
What are you so worried about?,....your god's not powerful enough to keep those that are his?,...sounds like you are suffering a little doubt and unbelief yourself.
Better get on your knees and repent right now!

Just Another Impoverished Beaner, Thanks John said...

John: "I don't think..."

Well said...

John: "Foreknowledge of the future means that God knew in advance that the World Trade Center was going to be attacked by extremist Muslims. But let's face it, he did allow you to bomb Japan twice with Atomic weapons. Expecting Him to protect you when he didn't protect them is selfish."

Lets see, its not the murder that poses the problem, its trying to determine who deserved it more than others. Great argument for an omnibenevolent god...

John: "Dano, I'm sure that Christians the world over will thank you for saving them from their feeble minds, especially those Mexican Catholics who are slowly taking over your country while you sit back thinking that your intellect is vastly superior to theirs."

And then, of course, religion makes a person think in terms of bigotry, and racism, so no surprise here for me, great job showcasing the christian love. The christian creed, "and 'almost' all men were created equally", look to the disclaimer and fine print, you too may be left out of the human race as being equal in worth.

John: "Today, they're picking your fruit and taking your garbage. Tomorrow, you'll be doing it for them."

Obviously, someone believes that people in america live in an ivory castle, as if they aren't already working. Not only can a christian be a bigot, they are adept at pointing out which careers they feel are being worked by the underclass in society. That's christian wisdom, its bigoted, racist, and dehumanizing, but, its consistent.

Dano said...

John wrote:
"Dano, I'm sure that Christians the world over will thank you for saving them from their feeble minds, especially those Mexican Catholics who are slowly taking over your country while you sit back thinking that your intellect is vastly superior to theirs. Today, they're picking your fruit and taking your garbage. Tomorrow, you'll be doing it for them"

Dan says:
First, I never said that my intellect was superior to anyone's. If I am superior in any way it is in my natural skepticism. I am saying that I have been lucky to be able to rid myself of the virus of religion. I also will add that religion damages the mind and the intellect, and the worst cases of infection never recover.

I don't know where you got the Mexican Catholic thing. I will say one thing about Catholics in general though, and that is they are some of the most hopeless cases of religious infection in the world. They are started on the ritual stuff, and the brainwashing at a very early age, and it becomes part of their psyche to such a degree that they have a hard time getting away from it.

Anyone who can watch those old men in their funny clothes go through those ridiculous rituals without getting angry, or break out laughing is beyond me.

All of that said, you are right about the possibility of religious nuts taking over this country, and the world, but I can't help but think that today, when there is no excuse for intellectual sterilization, when the silliness of religion is all over the net, and there are millions of people who are so informed and knowledgeable about the inconsistencies, and faulty logic of religious doctrines, that sanity and rational thought will prevail.

If someone like me who is uneducated, and with average intelligence can look at all of the stupid "Magical" concepts in the bible, and see them as the natural evolution of Pagan religions, ideas, and, and oral history, that preceded it, anyone can.

Dan (I repeat,RELIGIONS are what is gonna get us killed)

Anonymous said...

KH> All the omnipotence in the world cannot make a square circle."

Booms: And all the wishful thinking in the world cannot make love that is based on conditions, real.


KH> Love always has conditions, e.g. commitment, reciprocation, devotion, etc.

Kevin H

Anonymous said...

Webmaster: Jesus died, right? Wasn't he god?

KH> Hypostatic Union

Webmaster: Jesus lied didn't he? He said he would not go down to Jerusalem and then he did go down.

KH> Jesus said he was not going up at that time. He had other plans. Apparently they had an agenda for him.

Webmaster>Jesus was limited wasn't he? He said his Father was greater than him (Jesus).

KH> Hypostatic Union. Please check Phil 2:6-10.

Webmaster: Jesus was contingent too. He cried out: "Why have you forsaken me?"

KH> See above and also note that Jesus is quoting the first line from Psalm 22 as an identifier for the psalm he had in mind. Psalm 22 was taking place at that moment.

Webmaster: Apparently god can do all the things John can do. He can lie, die, be limited and be contingent.

I guess you can have a square circle.

In Christianity, you can have everything you want... except reality.

KH> Lots of strawmen there. We ought to talk about these some more.


Kevin H

GoneNsane said...

"Love always has conditions, e.g. commitment, reciprocation, devotion, etc."

Untrue. I love people simply because they are fellow human beings, even if they act in selfish ways or ways I cannot understand. I love people who hurt me because I know they have their own issues they are dealing with. It's called compassion.

Now, if I can love people unconditionally, I guess that makes me better than God, so why would I worship him? I could love and pity your God, but never find him worthy of worship. If I am to be expected to serve a deity, this deity at the very least must be able to display better traits than I, a lowly human.

Sorry, but Christians cannot possibly understand what love is while serving such an egotistical and selfish God. Your own bible says love is patient and kind and keeps no record of wrongs, but you all seem to gloss over that part instead of taking it to heart.

freedy said...

The fundie argument is that god is love "AND" he is HOLY ,...which demands justice.
The problem with this is that eternal torment by ANY stretch of the imagination could never be justified.(they even have an answer for this).
Sin or crimes against men call for temporal punishment,however,...sins against kings or GOD demands eternal consequenses,...hence hell.
Jim Earl is right"there is no point in arguing with christians,it is a waste of time"
They've had 2,000 years to come up with excuses for their silly but successful religion.

.:webmaster:. said...

KH likes the term Hypostatic Union
.

Good.

So was Jesus god or not? Did he die or not? Please explain your understanding of these two very simple questions. Don't just hide behind a complex theological term.

Oh I know, you'll say something along the lines of: "The precise nature of this union defies human comprehension."

Convenient argument.

BTW, Jesus did lie:

John 7:3: Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 "For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world."

8 "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come." 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. 10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Sorry Kev. I've read all the apologetics on this one, but no matter how I read it, it looks like old JC misled his brothers, even if it was only a little bit. White lie, black lie, whatever... it's a lie.

KH> See above and also note that Jesus is quoting the first line from Psalm 22 as an identifier for the psalm he had in mind. Psalm 22 was taking place at that moment.

WM> And you know that this explanation is true because... why? Please document your sources for knowing what Jesus was thinking as he was dying.

.:webmaster:. said...

KH> Love always has conditions, e.g. commitment, reciprocation, devotion, etc.

WM: You don't have kids do you KH?

"sins against kings or GOD demands eternal consequenses"

I wonder what horrific crime I've committed against God? Oh, yeah. I stopped believing. Horrible.

boomSLANG said...

Boomslang said: " all the wishful thinking in the world cannot make love that is based on conditions, real."


anonymous/KH's response: "Love always has conditions, e.g. commitment, reciprocation, devotion, etc."

"Reciprocation"? Yes, if Jesus' "love" is not "reciprocated"...guess what?...to the incinerator you go.

Tell me how many parents lite their kids on fire when/if the child becomes non-compliant, and/or non-loving at some point in their lives.

Either show us the statistics, the objective evidence for biblegod, or scram. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

There is no religion out there that has all of the truth and nothing but the truth and it is very easy to demonstrate. So the question is not do people have the right to believe what they want to but does religion have the right to proclaim it has truth? Obviously it has not. Therefore you have the right to believe what ever you wish and share that belief with whomever wants to hear about it but you and religion as an institution do not have the right to impose it on others.
As for believing just to be safe, just in case, what you have to lose is your dignity and your integrity and your freedom to think for yourself. Giving people hope in an illusion is not doing them a favor and though it does not do anything to the ordinary man or women it encourages institutionalized religion to go on exploiting poor people and creating segregation between believers and non-believers. People who post their thoughts on Religion are merely expressing their freedom to think for themselves and they do not proclaim to know who God is, but you do.
Why can’t we question God? Because the one you believe in threatens those who do with Hell and yet you pretend that He is merciful and full of Love. What is more you live in a world of permanent Guilt that leads you to believe ‘just to be safe’ rather than believe because ‘you know you have The Truth’.

John W. Loftus said...

Boy some guy named Anonymous sure posts a lot here! What's his first name?

J. C. Samuelson said...

"...there are things you can do that God cannot."

Then God is not omnipotent.

"Once again as I said in my post, omnipotence (the omni-attributes)only extend to what is actually possible."

Then it is not omnipotence.

All the redefinitions in the world cannot make omnipotence limited.

"Love always has conditions, e.g. commitment, reciprocation, devotion, etc."

You don't know what love is, K.H. Gump.

Personally, I think this is a troll. Treat accordingly.

ryan said...

I took a special interest in what "anonymous" had written (there seems to be more than one; I refer to a7/23, 9:02)

Anonymous, do not tell us that we cannot question the diety. If a deity, or deities, exist, it is nonsense that they should be offended by those of us who exercise the wits that they gave us to begin with. Perhaps you are suggesting that these deities are so weak and petty that they cannot bear questions.

Anyway, you have missed the point. If the deity exists--which I doubt--I would not question it. I do question those who presume to speak in its name. This is my birthright as a sentient being. And "those" refers to "those" who wrote the bible.

So far as eternal punishment goes, that was dreamed up by sick minds. I do not deserve such punishment. I deserve to be free and to live my life as I choose, in so far as choice is possible.

And anonymous, Pascal's wager is very bad form. It is based on fear.

DomincD said...

What always bewilders me is why some people always cite the Bible as the only source of the knowledge of God when it is made up of 2 contradictory elements, the Old Testament and the New.
If Jesus is the authentic messiah then the Jews are condemned to hell however faithful to the Old Testament they may try to be. Jesus said; “the only way to my father (God almighty) is through me”; which explicitly means that anyone not believing in Jesus as the son of God is condemned, and this includes the Jews.
But the Jews proclaim that the true messiah has not yet appeared according to their interpretation of the Old Testament. If they are right and this is true then automatically, Jesus is a fraud and so is the New Testament. Either way, one of the two parts of the Bible (The Old Testament or The New Testament) is either incorrect, misinterpreted or altogether false.
Who are we to believe then?
The Bible as a whole does not do much honor to God. It reads (for those who honestly try) like a bad soap opera in fact, unless you skip nine tenths of it or more. And when they add that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, it doesn’t make the Holy Spirit look any better either. But, isn’t the Holy Spirit God, or is He the Son, or is the Son, God, or is it the Sun-God… Oh well it’s easy to get entangled with such stories.
I think I prefer Zeus. Now there is a cool God and the good thing is there were so many beautiful statues made of him that at least we know what he looked like. But as for Jesus we have no clue.

DominicD

emptycan said...

Thank you guys, Freedy, Troothsayer, and wally, for your nice answers to my questions.

(I had some problems in coming into this site. I don't know the reason and just thought the webmaster might block me from this site. But, now I can come in... (so just shrug...))

BTW, now I am losing the hope for the future of human race (it's too big topic, isn't it? But It's serious one to me). The current Israeli-Arab war and the hatred in the ordinary people in the middle east show me there is maybe no hope of reconciliation of the three religions, which, I have worried, will eventually destroy the whole human race including the people of no or different religions.

How about you? How can you keep the hope for the day of peace and no religious struggles between the three religions?

Deamond said...

(I'm jumping on this one)

oh my gosh.. you are so far away from God, i love my God and your post made me cry.. not because you are questioning everything i believe but because you are so far away from God,

(I thought he was everywhere. If he's everywhere, how is that possible?)

sin and satan has definietly Got you,

(If you don't sin, you're not human. and "Satan" is merely a metaphorical anthropomorphic persnification, like the Sand Man or the Grim Reaper or Mother nature or the Tooth Fairy.)

but you can still be forgiven because God still loves you.. as you said most People go too hell...

(He loves us so much he sends us to eternal torment for being the way he made us? Your god made imperfect beings, he gets angry at them, which means his oun creations fail to meet his oun expectations, in other words he made a mistake, and you still call him perfect?)


but you have the choice! Choose Jesus and be forgiven because you can be one of the few who go to heaven and live with the perfect God forever and ever.

(Why the hell did he give us a choice then? Mercifull perfect gods are exact that. The Jehovah of the Bible is worse than Hitler.)

if were given no right too choose then what sort of existance would we be.. God wanted us to pick him and love him and steer away from evil

(you call that a choice? A choice is "Would you like a coke or a sprite?". "Would you like a coke or would you like me to cut your head off" is a threat, not a choice. If Jehovah was a human king he'd be called a "dictator" and probably be hung by his heels.)


not us to live under his ruling because we do not know any other way. we would be joyless because we wouldnt know the meaning of sin, satan (eg pain hurt) we live and feel like God intended..
Do not test or Question your God!

(Oh, fuck you! Actually, no problom there, YOU believe in him so he's YOUR god, so I'll just test and question YOUR God, how's that?)



What have you got too lose! what if u die and you find out god is real!

(Personally I'm planning to catch up with the Marque De Sade.)

you will surely be doomed to an eternity of pain.. God is good and he loves you!

("you will surely be doomed to an eternity of pain.. God is good and he loves you!" Too easy.)

What have you got too lose! please follow the lord and if not do that STOP QUESTIONING THE LORD GOD!!!

(If there's one thing worse than not having a choice, as you yourself have already said, it's not having a brain. If your religion was the truth, it would hold up to scruitany. The fact that you're trying to stop us from scrutinizing your religion is proof enough that we SHOULD question your god.)


if you choose to not believe him thats ok! (well not really) but its better you not believeing him and keeping it too yourself opposed too you not believeing it and posting you thoughts of this horrible veiw point you have on christianity on the internet so Christians like my self can stumble upon in by accident. What if someone was debating their faith and u made them give up their faith!

(Once I get people to start thinking, my work is done.)

Do you want to be held accountable for someone elses suffering!!!

(By a God that doesn't exist? Yeah, why not?)

even if their isnt a god (which there is) christianity gives people hope in the tradgic world we live in!

(Do you EVER watch the news?)

and what harm is that doing too you! goodnight and god bless ill be praying for you

(Look, rather than praying for people who don't need your help, don't want it and don't give a fuck, why not give real help to someone who actually wants and needs your help? Poor people, for example, or those whos family have been bombed by christians. )

and this horrible website that it may be ceased to be seen by anyone and more importantly that you find peace with god. You can question God and his intentions but FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS.

(Prove it. Can "Faith" move mountains faster than, say, an entire construction crew with big machines?)

you could ask me all the questions in the world and i would dismiss everyone of them because i ave FAITH

(Translation; I'm a braindead zombie slave.)

and FAith is all i need, God Bless Lost Sheep.

(They actually try to convince us that we shouldn't use our brains, and they wonder why we think they're stupid.)

Deamond said...

To the Korian person,

Yes, I've heard of Korea.

Admittedly I have little knowledge of Budhism, but (correct me if I'm mistaken) the worst sin a Budhist can commit is murder. Which i think is great. (that it's a sin, not that murder is great)

(It's a sin in Christianity, too, but just about everything in the Bible seems to be "Open to interperetation". some even claim that "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't include killing enemied during a war)

Now, those people who told you that Budah is Satan, well, some fundamentalist Christians (Fundies are basically one of the worst kind of Christians, the kind that Catholics slowly back away from) believe that all "False Gods" are Satan. Which is odd, because if you actually read the Bible the Christian God acts worse than Hitler.

Now, if christians are openly attacking innocent people where you live, I strongly sugest you get the hell out of there and move to some town where there's more Budhists. Or, failing that, try to pretend to be a Christian just to get them to leave you alone (I can't promise it'll work)

I've been thinking about the Yin-Yang once, (I'm afraid that's the only budhist symbol, other than a statue of Budha, that I can name on sight), it's not just a black circle and a white circle, there's also a black dot in the white swirl and vice-versa.

The way I see it, this symbolizes that, not only is everyone part good and part evil, but also that there is evil in good and good in evil.

In allot of 80's cartoons like Transformers and He-Man (I don't know if you're farmilliar with them) all the bad guys know they're evil and they enjoy evil and they have maniacle laughs. In real life, that kind of evil is usually limited to petty criminals. (These were written by Christians, and really, there's no real reason why Optimus Prime is "Good" and Megatron is "Evil" except that Optimus shoots at "evil" people (well, robots) which makes it "Okay".)

The absolurte WORST kind of evil is the kind that thinks it's good. Hitler thought he was doing the world a favour. Nixon thought he was bringing democracy to vietnam. George W. Bush, Pol Pot, cruisades, etc. The common denominator is, while pirates, vikings and other "barberians" can be apeased with reason or bribary, people who think they're good are relentlessly unstoppable, so they will continue to murder women and children beyond they point when they themselves become tired and hungry.

Deamond said...

emptycan,

on the morning that 9/11 first happened (It was morning in Melbourne) Mum said that she thought it might start a war, but I said that I didn't think the Americans would be stupid enough to start a war over it.

Isn't my face red.

We only have some hope;

A) that Bush gets shot
B) that a Democrat wins the next election, and then puts Bush on trial as a war criminal.
C) that John Howard (The Australian Prime Minister) loses the next election and whoever wins will decide to let the Americans do their oun killing.
D) That all the oil on the planet runs out, or alternate fuel cars become more popular and affordable
E) That the Second Coming of christ actually happens, and, in a deep booming voice, before the entire planet, Jesus Christ himself calls George W. Bush a wanker.
F) Israel blows up. Then everyone can fight over a cratre.
G) America blows up middle East, Arab nation in Soutyh Pacific blow up Washington, everyone's happy.
H) George W. Bush attacks China. China invades America, Comminists refuse to get involved with religious wars.
I) Centuries from now, entire "War on Terror" is known as "The Stupid Ages". Jehovah little more than another myth, and the Churches have to pay taxes.

emptycan said...

Hi, Deamond,

You said: I) Centuries from now, entire "War on Terror" is known as "The Stupid Ages". Jehovah little more than another myth, and the Churches have to pay taxes.


I have some issue with that because I don't know there will be centuries from now....Yes you're right. It's your hope. and my hope, too.

Never Going Back said...

Anonymous, with the utmost respect and dignity, I say the following: WAKE UP!

Your arguments are shallow. Do you not understand that this is an EX-CHRISTIAN website? We have heard all of the apologetic arguments for the faith. We have regurgitated those same lifeless excuses to others when we were once Christians. We no longer believe in a "loving God" that orders the Israelites to slaughter entire villages of people including innocent babes and the elderly (except of course for the virgins cause they could keep them around for nocturnal purposes) The doctrine of Hell negates the "love of God". Perhaps if you were to AT LEAST drop that pagan doctrine we would be willing to listen to you. There would still remain all of the other atrocious doctrines you would attempt (in vain) to convince us of, but you might be able to reconvert a few of us (highly unlikely). Do your research on the doctrine of Hell my dear. Ever wonder why Jesus taught a doctrine of Hell when the Old Testament doesn't mention it? Ever wonder why Solomon says in Ecclesiates that the dead are aware of NOTHING? Ever wonder why God told Adam and Eve that the punishment for their sin was DEATH and not HELL? There are so many other ridiculous notions you Christians have but we will attack this one for now since you are so good at warning us of the dangers of Hell. We will deal with the doctrine of Hell, because it is this very threat that is used to convince us of our need for "salvation". So now, can u please delve into the origins of your Hell doctrine and come back when you are better educated on the subject? For starters you can visit a wonderful site called: www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

Another good read although off the subject, are the writings of your beloved Martin Luther who started the Reformation. Very interesting views he had on women and Jews. Very interesting things he thought should be done to the Jews. Mein Kampf is another great read by Hitler who was a self professed Christian and sincerely believed he was doing the will of God by committing genocide against the Jews. Oh okay, i know...Hitler wasn't a "real christian" But wait...Jesus said that if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that YOU SHALL BE SAVED. Period. So I guess Hitler is having his balls fanned in Heaven now. Saved by faith is saved by FAITH. If salvation is a free gift and you only have to believe to recieve than Hitler was by that standard a Christian. Your Heaven will be full of such wonderful Christians while our Hell will be chock full of terrible heathen like Ghandi. Why is Hell such a terrible place again?

Never Going Back said...

To Anon: Something to consider...

You react with horror to the atrocity of the genocide committed by Hitler against the Jews, right? The Nazis' inflicted cruel torture and inhumane conditions upon these jews until they could no longer use them and would then burn them in the ovens and sometimes alive! In case you doubt that please read "Night" by Elie Wiesel, the first hand account of a survivor of the concentration camps. That shit will keep you up at night.

As i was saying...you react in horror to such an atrocity, but then have the hypocrisy to say that your loving God will roast the Jews and all other non-believers in Hell simply for the sin of unbelief, but this is okay because it is done by a loving God. At least Hitler's torture was limited. That was humane compared to what Hell will be like, right? According to your Bible, the righteous (you and all of your Sunday School class) will revel in the destruction of your enemies (me and all my friends at Ex-Christian.net) in Hell. Why aren't you happy about the "punishment" Hitler inflicted on the Jews?

DominicD said...

Hi everyone,

There exists in our world a certain number of physical laws that, even if we stubbornly reject them, regiment our everyday lives whether we like it or not. There are certainly many things yet to discover but we know these laws are universal. We also know that the universe is in perpetual change. ‘Without change, there would be no growth, no life, no death _ nothing.’ (in “Confirmation”, page 258, by Khephra Burns and Susan L. Taylor). Time is perpetual change.
We are the children of Time. If Time didn’t exist, neither would we. If time were to ‘stand still’ at this very instant, I would be “frozen” in front of my typewriter forever and ever. I would no longer write, no longer grow, no longer breath, no longer live. The Earth would be an inert chunk of matter forever stopped in its orbit like some sort of ball pinned to a giant blackboard.
Time and metamorphosis are one and the same. Nothing really dies or is newly born. Everything merely changes incessantly from one form to another. That is the magic of Time and Nature.
We can comprehend that there is no change without time and no time without change. We can ask, what came first, time or change? Did time appear at the ‘big bang’? One thing is certain, if time appeared at the ‘big bang’ so did change. And if time existed before then, there must have been change there too, where ever ‘there’ was.
If there is a relation between time and God, and between God and creation, then we can establish certain connections.
If God exists (in the unique God hypothesis) and if God is timeless (a-temporal or eternal) then God is not of this universe. This world being of change and therefore temporal, an eternal God cannot be of this world.
Secondly, if God is of this world, if He is temporal then God is of change. In other words, God must also follow the laws of change. Whatever the forms, shapes, and matters He may be made of, accumulated or condensed into one ‘bundle’ or not, He must undergo change. He will undergo changes in aging, deterioration, regeneration and so on.

DominicD

Rasmus said...

Tough on Christians
The God depicted in Exodus was "I am that I am"; this was an epithet of Amon Re, the Egyptian sun God. One of the representations of this God was as a burning bush that did not burn up. Also as the bible incorrectly states, you don't die by looking at his face, you go blind. Yes, as the Bible states, you can watch him as he passes by. (You can look at the sun as it sets in the evening without going blind).
The people who worshipped the God represented by the Tetragammaton were the Shasu. This God was known as Yawwu in the ancient world, yet in a document found at Ugarit from about 1200 BC he was renamed Yammu by the chief God El. Yammu was a God of the underworld.
The God depicted in Daniel was Marduk. The struggle in Daniel is between the followers of Marduk as opposed to the Old moon God Nabonidus was attempting to reinstall.
The Daniel tale is not about Nebuchadnezzar as is proven by several things such as the son’s name, Balthazar. Nabonidus had such a son as verified by booth Greek and Babylonian records, Nebuchadnezzar did not. Nabonidus did go mad and relinquished the empire to his son Balthazar who lost Babylon without a struggle.
The Christian God is neither one of these three Gods. The Christian God was from the Roman Emperor Constantine which is the reason no gospels are available from prior to Constantine.
The fact that no complete Gospel survives from prior to Emperor Constantine’s has to do with the fact that all material which did not fully confirm with the Christian beliefs were ordered destroyed in 385 AD. Had the Gospels existed prior to this time they would have been preserved. Everything which has been discovered prior to Constantine is only in short fragmentary form and nothing in them refutes the likelihood it was Gnostics that existed prior to Constantine and not the people resembling today’s Christians.
In discussion of the shameful acts of the Christians one would not omit the slaughter of millions of Cathars (Albigensians) which ensued after the edict of Pope Innocent III which was of the most gruesome crimes perpetrated by the Church.
There are no written records of anything which Jesus allegedly said until several hundred years after he lived so how can anyone state with certainty what he said?
There is no “good” Church because Christians all rely on deceptive arguments.
Why would anyone believe that the things which can’t be verified within the Christian Church could possibly be correct when everything that can be examined is proven to be lies and deceptions?
Best Gnosisquest

Anonymous said...

Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God.

However, many are divided as whether to believe the Old Testament. For example, the story of creation, Noah's Ark and many other examples seem to be a bit too much for those who take scientific evidence into account.

The incident concerning Abraham, where God tests him by asking him to kill his son Isaac, seems to have happened, as because Abraham passed the test, he was promised more or less to be the first of the nation of Israel, and have lots of descendants.

I have a problem with God's test.

Here are a few questions.

1. Is it wrong to kill, except perhaps in self-defence? My answer is: Yes, it is generally wrong to kill.

2. If your friend asks you to kill, will you? My answer: No.

3. If your mum or dad asks you to kill, will you? My answer: No.

4 If your friend asks you to kill your son? My answer: No.

5 If your mum or dad asks you to kill your son? My answer: No

6. If God asks you to kill your son? My answer: According to the Bible, God is a loving God, incapable of causing hurt - It could not possibly be God asking this question. More likely, it's the devil.

7. Let us assume that Abraham knew it was God who was testing him. My query: A loving God wouldn't possibly do that, simply because he's loving. It is not a loving God, who asks someone good to kill. If he had a special reason for it, hadn't God taught them to pray at this stage, so that Abraham should at least have tried to pray. Doesn't prayer help to change God's mind? Abraham was blindly willing to do the wrong thing, and he was rewarded for it by becoming the first of the nation of Israel!!!

Why didn't Jesus in his time, explain the Abraham Isaac incident? He knew it was wrong to kill. He had learnt the scriptures, just like any other Jew. In fact, he prayed to God to change his mind about the crucifixion.

From the Abraham incident, I learn that it is alright to kill if it is God who asks you to do it. However, the 5th commandment (given by God), tells you it is wrong to kill.

What is right?

Justina Durongpisitkul

DominicD said...

Dear Justina Durongpisitkul,

The Quagmires of the Ten Commandments:

One of the Bible’s most cherished precepts is the Ten Commandments transmitted to Moses. Let us review these briefly.
The first is, ‘I am the Lord thy god, thou shalt not have strange gods before me’.
The second is, ‘Thou shalt not take the name of the lord they god in vain’.
The third is, ‘Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day’.
The forth, ‘Honor thy father and mother’.
The fifth, ‘Thou shalt not kill’.
The sixth, Thou shalt not commit adultery’.
The seventh, ‘Thou shalt not steal’.
The eighth, ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor’.
The ninth, ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife’.
The tenth, ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods’.
First of all the sixth could have read as, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery nor even covet thy neighbor’s wife’. Jesus said that the fact of coveting is already a sin and therefore adultery is but the ultimate consummation of the sin.
Secondly, the seventh could also read as, ‘Thou shalt not steal nor covet thy neighbor’s goods’ for the same reason as for the previous sixth. These two slight modifications would reduce the commandments to a more logical eight. Several critics including comedians (George Carlin for example) have easily noticed the repetitious nature of these commandments.
On a more serious note however, here again we are faced with the absolutism of the commandments. If they have been dictated by god, just how much can we bend these rules if we can at all? Are these rules as important to the believer or potential believer as is the creed? But also, what can possibly be the punishment for not following these commandments?
Most Judeo-Christian churches will tell you that these commandments are the pillars of the faith and that breaking them is punishable by eternal damnation (capital punishment of sorts), unless, say some Christians, we accept Jesus as our savior, in which case we may be entitled to some probation.
Let us for the purpose of the discussion consider the seventh rule; commandment being a long word to write let us refer to them as rules. Let us imagine for a moment that a person is destitute, has lost his job, his home, everything and that he is literally dying of hunger. He decides to steal something to eat. Is this individual condemned to hell for ever because of this? If not, then we can bend the rules, at least a little bit. If so, this seems somewhat cruel and unjust. Perhaps, in the marvelous plan of the ‘Designer’, no one will ever have to steal because no one will ever go hungry? This is only the first quagmire of the rules.
By comparison, let us consider the first rule. There seems to be no doubt as to the absolutism of this rule. Either one worships this ‘Lord’ or one does not. If one does not and if this Lord is the unique, the one and only Lord, then we are in for it if we don’t follow this rule. There is obviously no room here for pardon, no attenuating circumstances.
If one rule is absolute, then all of them must be, just like in a creed. Therefore, stealing or coveting someone else’s goods, what ever the reason, is punishable to the maximum. If but one rule becomes disputable, then they all become disputable.
Let us finish with rule number 5. Now this one says ‘thou shalt not kill’. Just what does it mean? Kill what, kill who? Because the biblical ’Lord’ delights in the smell of burning entrails and animal sacrifices (all through the Old Testament) it most certainly does not mean killing animals. Therefore it means killing other human beings.
Is there any circumstance where one could kill a person and not break the rule? By virtue of the absolutism of the rules, the answer is ‘no’. This means that if you kill someone in the attempt to protect your own life, you are condemned. This also means that every soldier that ever killed another human, regardless of the side he was on, or the circumstances, is condemned; quite the quagmire here also.
Surely an all Intelligent-Designer-God would know better than to dictate rules of this nature knowing full well that they could only be absolute and therefore easily broken. Surely a loving god would not create quagmires to trap innocent people. Does this mean that we should live without rules; of course not. We are gregarious beings and in order to live in harmony together we need rules of conduct; that is why we have invented Laws. The difference between secular laws and divine commandments is that secular laws are lenient at times and seldom if ever absolute.

Yours Truly,

DominicD

WaLk*By*fAiTh said...

I'd rather live my life believing in God, and die to find out that there isn't one, than live not believing in God, and die to find out there IS one...

Even as a Christian, I have my questions and doubts - I'm actually VERY inquisitive. I accepted Jesus Christ into my life about 3 years ago, and I'd be lying if I said things have been perfect ever since. Actually, I've faced even bigger issues, things that have broken me and caused more sorrow than I knew I could bear. BUT, I'm not alone now. To the unbeliever, it all sounds ridiculous - pretty crazy stuff, I know.

A lot of unbelievers are right when they say that Christians are hypocrites, and yes, some of the most terrible acts against humanity have been done in the name of Christianity. So I'll be the first to say that I'm not "religious." Hmm... A Christian not religious? What does this mean? It means I have a relationship with God. Again, it probably sounds crazy. It doesn't mean that I don't go to church, it doesn't mean that I don't pray and it doesn't mean that I don't read the bible. It means that I know that it’s not all it takes to be a Christian. It means I don't rely on those "routines" or "traditions" to be saved. … Saved, another topic for debate…. the idea of being "saved" is probably stupid for many too....

I won't sit here and say that all of you, unbelievers and/or believers, don't have good questions. I've heard the best questions come from atheists. I'm sorry that I don't have an answer for all of your questions and that you haven't had them answered by anyone else. It seems strange that an all powerful God wouldn't answer, right? But God is still God, whether he does what you want or not. Whether YOUR questions are answered or not, he is still God. God is still God even when we don't understand, and how can we judge God by our standards?

Taking a look at the universe, even just our solar system, we come to see how insignificant in size we really are. (And the big bang theory, just doesn't cut it all for me...) So, there has to be something bigger out there, bigger than our minds can imagine. There has to be something out there that created all of this. And even that sounds crazy, right? I mean, who created God. Well... he was just there. Sometimes, we won't receive an answer in the way we want it, or we may not receive the answer that we wanted at all. Maybe the answer lies in the question. (Now I sound like drunken philosopher ... but I challenge you to think strongly about what I just said...)

If you live your live trying to unmask things, you won't ever find yourself, or the answers that are actually important. I say, give God a chance to work in you. Let Jesus come into your life. Life won't be without its problems and questions... but at least it won't be without hope...

God bless you all

p.s. anonymous, keep your head up, be strong and courageous.


Walk by faith and not by sight…

AtheistToothFairy said...

WaLk*By*fAiTh said...
Sometimes, we won't receive an answer in the way we want it, or we may not receive the answer that we wanted at all
---
WBF,

This comment of yours demonstrates the major difference between your way of thinking and those who don't hold a belief in a god being.

You sit around waiting to "receive an answer" from a non-existent god, while the rest of us set out to DISCOVER the answers to our questions, using the tools of science, research and logic etc..

You than say, "I mean, who created God. Well... he was just there."

Well, I find it very interesting that you have no problem in just assuming this very complex god being was "just there", but you can't accept that the simpler matter/energy of the universe, could also have been "just there".

Why add complexity to the formula of the universe by adding an extraordinary god being into the scheme of things, unless one does so because of an emotional need to have such a god for an answer.
Of course, while that may make you FEEL better, it doesn't add any credibility to whether such a god exists or not, does it?


ATF (Who is just fine with the big bang explanation, as it has much evidence to back it, while a god creator has NONE)

boomSLANG said...

walk*by*faith...I'd rather live my life believing in God, and die to find out that there isn't one, than live not believing in God, and die to find out there IS one..

Yes, yes...Pascal's Wager---'got the memo, ad nauseam.

The problem with this philosophy - a philosophy that essentially says one should believe, "just in case" - is that you, too, will go through your entire life disbelieving in countless "gods". For instance, you disbelieve in "Allah", thus, you run the risk, however small, of getting tossed in Islamic Hell. In other words, in order for this theory of yours to be fully effective, you'd literally have to believe in, or if you prefer, "walk with faith" with, every known god throughout history.

'Sounds to me like you'd better get your faithful little rear-end down to your local library and start crackin' the books.

BTW, I'd like to also point out that if you simply cease to exist when you die, then obviously you won't "find out" that there isn't a "God". Duh?

walk*by*faith...Even as a Christian, I have my questions and doubts - I'm actually VERY inquisitive.

And let me guess, for any and all unanswered questions that you might have, you simply "walk by faith". Is that a fair assessment?

walk*by*faith...I accepted Jesus Christ into my life about 3 years ago, and I'd be lying if I said things have been perfect ever since.

Yes, you would be lying; and thank you for not attempting to insult our intelligence by portraying your life as such. Of course, we probably already agree that no human being lives or leads a perfect life. That said, feel free to show how that fact is relevant to whether a "God" exists, or not. If anything, it tends to tell me that no human being is being micro-managed by any "perfect" being. After all, if that were the case, we'd see "perfect" results.

walk*by*faith...Actually, I've faced even bigger issues, things that have broken me and caused more sorrow than I knew I could bear.

That's right...you have faced them, just like we all face them. If you want to believe that your "faith" got your through it, then fine, that's your right. But be aware that non-religious people are living proof that human beings can overcome all of the same blows that you've overcome, without evoking "spirits", or any other superstitious entities.

walk*by*faith...BUT, I'm not alone now. To the unbeliever, it all sounds ridiculous - pretty crazy stuff, I know.

Nope, it doesn't sound ridiculous at all, seeing as how I spent 2/3rds of my life believing that I, too, had an invisible personal "savior". I now know that I was deluding myself. A part of you knows it, too.

walk*by*faith...A lot of unbelievers are right when they say that Christians are hypocrites, and yes, some of the most terrible acts against humanity have been done in the name of Christianity.

Yes, uh huh, terrible acts and hypocracy. Agreed. Of course, that really shouldn't be any great shocker, since the christian bible is doom-laden with "terrible acts" that are condoned, and even committed by, the christian biblegod, himself. Please read your Old Testament. Additionally, if the christian biblegod cannot even follow its own advice, or adhere to its own alleged values, then it should be no surprise that there is hypocracy in the church.

walk*by*faith...So I'll be the first to say that I'm not "religious."

Pardon, but is the word "religious" in quotations marks because you are taking it out of of its normal, every-day religious context?

walk*by*faith...Hmm... A Christian not religious? What does this mean? It means I have a relationship with God.

Yes, yes...I'm all too familiar with that axiom---you have "relations" with an invisible being that you cannot detect with your physical, human senses. Or rather, you believe that you do. That's the distinction.

Notwithstanding, if you are insistant that you have a relationship with the "Creator of the Universe", feel free to give a profile....you know, is "God" 4'9"?..or closer to 9'4"? What does "God" sound like? Hair color? I'm curious.

walk*by*faith...Again, it probably sounds crazy.

No; it sounds typical. It sounds typical of someone who is eat-up with the christian meme.

walk*by*faith...It doesn't mean that I don't go to church, it doesn't mean that I don't pray and it doesn't mean that I don't read the bible. It means that I know that it’s not all it takes to be a Christian.

I'm sorry, but currently, there is no consistant, cohesive, unanimous agreement on what "it takes to be a Christian". Until there is, I must tell you that your opinion on the matter carries very little weight with me.

walk*by*faith... Saved, another topic for debate…. the idea of being "saved" is probably stupid for many too....

Yes, Sir(or Maam)---the idea that we are born "guilty" of some other individual's alleged trespass, and that we need to be "saved" from something we have no control over, is quite stupid. Yes. In fact, "stupid" is probably an understatement.

walk*by*faith...I won't sit here and say that all of you, unbelievers and/or believers, don't have good questions. I've heard the best questions come from atheists.

We might be on to something---I've heard the worst "answers" come from Christians. There's a pattern.

walk*by*faith...I'm sorry that I don't have an answer for all of your questions and that you haven't had them answered by anyone else.

You call it being "sorry"; I call it making excuses for your alleged "God".

walk*by*faith...It seems strange that an all powerful God wouldn't answer, right?

'You think?

walk*by*faith...But God is still God, whether he does what you want or not. Whether YOUR questions are answered or not, he is still God. God is still God even when we don't understand...

Please look up, study, and retain the term, Existential fallacy.

walk*by*faith...and how can we judge God by our standards?

I'm not "judging" any "God"; I simply don't believe in any such entity. If I talk about, or ask questions about the christian biblegod - or any "God", for that matter - it is under the pretense that such a being exists; it is for the sake of argument.

walk*by*faith...Taking a look at the universe, even just our solar system, we come to see how insignificant in size we really are.

Our physical size in contrast to the universe has ZERO relevance to our significance. That said, I'll kindly ask you two things: 1) Don't speak fo me; speak only for yourself, and 2) don't project your god-dependent worldview on to me. Thanks.

walk*by*faith...(And the big bang theory, just doesn't cut it all for me...)

Similar to how the "spherical earth theory" evidently didn't "cut it" two thousand years ago.

walk*by*faith...So, there has to be something bigger out there, bigger than our minds can imagine. There has to be something out there that created all of this.

Really? Says wHO?

walk*by*faith...And even that sounds crazy, right? I mean, who created God. Well... he was just there.

Lol. So, where reason fails, bare assertions prevail? Is that how "truth" works?

walk*by*faith...Sometimes, we won't receive an answer in the way we want it, or we may not receive the answer that we wanted at all.

True, and notice how you'd get the same results asking a jar of mayonaise questions. Coincidence?

walk*by*faith...Maybe the answer lies in the question.

How convenient; making excuses for "God" again.

walk*by*faith...(Now I sound like drunken philosopher ... but I challenge you to think strongly about what I just said...)

Think "strongly". Is that anything like thinking objectively? If so, then I'll have you know that that is precisely the type of thinking that made realize I was deluded; that I sounded like a "drunken philosopher" when I spoke.

walk*by*faith...If you live your live trying to unmask things, you won't ever find yourself, or the answers that are actually important.

Okay, "unmask things". Is that anything like un-cover?..i.e..to discover? Tell me, what's the alternative to discovery?....keeping my head in the sand, right? I'll "find myself" that way?

walk*by*faith...I say, give God a chance to work in you. Let Jesus come into your life.

How astonishingly unobservant, arrogant, and insulting for you to simple assume that we haven't tried those things. Good grief...are you a simpleton, or what?

walk*by*faith...Life won't be without its problems and questions... but at least it won't be without hope...

Again, please don't project your myopic religious views on to me. One doesn't need a "god", nor an "afterlife" in the clouds, to have "hope".

walk*by*faith...God bless you all

May reason fall on your head like a lead zepplin.

walk*by*faith...Walk by faith and not by sight…

Walking by faith means trying to get to places that you know don't exist. Walk by reason.