12/06/2006                                                                                       View Comments

The God Who Wasn't There



One hour long

Buy this video by clicking here.

Holding modern Christianity up to a bright spotlight, this eye-opening documentary asks the questions few dare to ask. "Did Jesus even exist?" is just the beginning for The God Who Wasn't There. Your guide through the world of Christendom is former fundamentalist Brian Flemming, joined by such luminaries as Jesus Seminar fellow Robert M. Price, author Sam Harris and historian Richard Carrier.

In addition to the film, which won the Best Documentary award at the 2005 Grassroots Cinema Film Festival, this feature-packed DVD includes:

-Special commentary tracks with Richard Dawkins and Earl Doherty

-Over one hour of compelling additional interview footage
-An in-depth Web-enabled slide show
-Music from the soundtrack
-Bios of all participants

This provocative DVD takes off the gloves and gives religion an unprecedented, no-holds-barred examination. So hold on to your faith. It's in for a bumpy ride.

Buy this video by clicking here.

66 comments:

Anonymous said...

Sum-1, says,

Their is more actual legal proof, that Jesus, really existed, More than all of our courts need for a conviction on murder, and a death senternce, two or more eywitnesses are needed for a conviction in the courts of our day, there were many eyewitness acounts of the Man Jesus, the Christ, before he was murdered, and just as many after his resurrection from the dead. any man, or human who questions this is less that intelligent, and His brains are gone for good. the "eon"
The proof is in the pudding as thay say... and as they might also say some one must be, or is communicating out of the wrong end, their rear end. Or "A"-Hole..

celestials1938@msn.com

Koch

Warnepiece said...

Speaking of assholes...yeah, you can say it here Celestials...

It is There, not their.

The eyewitnesses you refer to, where is their testimony, outside of that highly questionable book, you know, the babble?

What legal proof can you site? Saying it is one thing. Legally proving is going to be the hard part. I just checked the pudding I have on the shelf and there was no proof of jesus in it...as you say.

Oops, I just noticed, I'm questioning it. I'm also questioning your sanity, Celeste.

What kind of medication are you on?

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous/celestials/Koch bleated "Their [sic] is more actual legal proof, that Jesus, really existed, More than all of our courts need for a conviction on murder, and a death senternce [sic], two or more eywitnesses [sic] are needed for a conviction in the courts of our day, there were many eyewitness acounts [sic] of the Man Jesus..."

An eyewitness in a court of law is a living, breathing, human being who directly witnessed the event in question. Since there are none walking around today who observed anything 2000 years ago, one would need to admit the gospels into evidence. There are many rules governing the admission of ancient documents as evidence. For example, there must be nothing to suggest that the document has been tampered with in any way, and the document must be signed or otherwise traceable to the author. The gospels fail on those two counts alone. They have been redacted and amended many times by unknown people, and they were anonymous until the second century. But let's suppose they were admitted into evidence. Who are the eyewitnesses you speak of? The gospel writers themselves do not even claim this--they are reporting hearsay some unspecified number of times removed. Hearsay is not admissible as evidence--at least not in the US.

The tired old claim that the existence of Jesus could be proven in a court of law is completely specious. Even the most highly-cited proponent of the use of legal reasoning in apologetics (Simon Greenleaf) began with the assumption that the Bible is the inspired word of god, as there is otherwise no reason to suppose the stories are actually true. I hope you can appreciate the circularity of this.

Good day.

I try to be a christian said...

I love how you guys continue to skip over the evidence on this website. This is why no one takes you guys seriously. This website is a sham. Jesus is LORD.

Warnepiece said...

I Try to be a..., You took it serious enough to leave your inane comment.

What eveidence can you offer?

I really want to know...and please don't suggest your holy babble.

Tim Simmons said...

I Try...

Please, OH PLEASE, just give me ONE piece of evidence for the existence of Jesus. I find it strange that you accuse us of skipping over the evidence and then you don't even give a few of these pieces that we've skipped. We have not skipped anything. There IS no evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. He is a fiction. A myth created out of previous myths.


Again, please post ONE piece of evidence.


Tim

Wes said...

>>
I love how you guys continue to skip over the evidence on this website. This is why no one takes you guys seriously. This website is a sham. Jesus is LORD.
>>

I'm not going to interrogate you. I only want to politely and respectfully ask you to produce one piece of evidence that we are ignoring. Please - I implore you. I am not trying to be an ass; I just want you to post one piece of evidence for me to evaluate... -Wes.

Wes said...

OK - what's the difference between a picture of Jesus, and the REAL Jesus? Give up? It only takes one nail to hang the picture of Jesus! Har har! :-) -Wes.

Wes said...

...is 'Koch' pronounced 'Cock'? Just curious. No, really - I don't know. -Wes.

Warnepiece said...

Jesus’ last word, reputedly heard by a Roman centurion…..


OW, OW, OUCH….FUCK THAT HURT! OW, OW….TAKE THAT DAMNED NAIL OUTTA MY HAND YOU JERK…OWWWWW….OWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Wes said...

I find this helps alleviate the stress of having to deal with psycho christians, fundy trolls, etc.

Go here.
http://www.doodie.com/anger_management.php

Pretend the boss guy is a xtian trying to convert you. -Wes.

Wes said...

Speaking of holes in hands - wanna know how Jesus masturbated?? -Wes.

Warnepiece said...

He was obviously the two handed type .

That doodie.com/anger management stuff is funny! I found 5 ways so far...

Anonymous said...

Jesus Hairy Christ!!!!

I've been lurking here for many years and I can't pass this one up.

I've been an airline pilot for 8 years and can say for certain that crew scheduling just doesn't take religion into account for staffing. The "rupture" just ain't a big concern for them. The bugger at the beginning of the credits really jerks my chain!

Cheers,
Outback Jack (I can't seem to log in for some reason.)

You Aren't A True Christian said...

I try to be a christian: "I love how you guys continue to skip over the evidence on this website. This is why no one takes you guys seriously. This website is a sham. Jesus is LORD."

Will the "real" Jew's Ass (Jesus) please stand up! Nope, guess he's really not the LURED, like the fish christians want to make him.

Anonymous said...

Ever notice how excited Christians get when anything found even HINTS that Jesus may have lived? That should speak volumes and answer any questions as to any proof of Jesus ever having lived.

Mike the reborn christian said...

You guys are so one sided on this website it stinks. I don't trust any of you. Christ is Lord and every knee shall bow. These godless atheists on this website will lead you down a road to pure hell. Our Lord and Savior is the only one that offers a true peace. Get real people this website is oh soooooooooo sad!

Warnepiece said...

Mike the reborn fundy,

You don't have to stick around. Nobody forced you to come here and post the insipid comments you did.

Take a hike. It will make us soooooooooooooo glad!

Anonymous said...

Swivel mike, just swivel.

Leonard said...

Celestials: as always, your argument sounds like the product of about a quart of good whiskey.
Also, the proof is not in the pudding; the sugar and raisins are in the pudding. The PROOF of the pudding is in the EATING. (GC)

Try, Mike, your words are also not convincing. You merely spew out unbased statements ("We are right and you are wrong"-style) without supporting evidence for your viewpoint.

At the end of the day, the ONLY evidence we have that Jesus existed is a BOOK, a highly biased book at that, that has gone through countless hands and may not have been reliable to begin with.

You don´t believe in Al´lah, Krishna, Mazda or Odin, but THEY have books with eyewitnesses.
What´s the difference with YOUR idol of choice?

Anonymous said...

i agree with everyone here. there is no actual evidence.
but...as a christian it is just something i feel deep in my heart and soul. that is faith...believing in what isnt seen but felt.

Warnepiece said...

Or as Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) put it...

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

So there's your problem anonymous, you are beleiving in a fable, a fairey tale, a myth...and all your faith and belief will NEVER make it become real.

If you can agree with us, that there is no evidence, take the next step and look critically at what your "faith" is then based on. Feeling good is not proof.

Paul said...

Jesus Is Our GOd and Lord
Dear friends,
The historicity of Jesus is beyond any doubt. The writers of the gospels died as martyrs for the truth of the existence, teachings, death and resurrection of Lord Jesus Christ. Beside, Roman historians such as Seutonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Young recorded the existence of Jesus and his miracles in their books. If the skeptics are not willing to believe the NT gospels they should at least believe Roman historians. Praise to Lord Jesus Christ and Long Live Christianity!

Dave Harty said...

"i agree with everyone here. there is no actual evidence.
but...as a christian it is just something i feel deep in my heart and soul. that is faith...believing in what isnt seen but felt."

The irony being that if you had never heard of him from the bible or some other christian, you wouldn't have that feeling, which of course means that it's all you.

Warnepiece said...

You've been duped Paul. Even christian historians will acknowledge that they don't know WHO wrote the gospels. The present day names were assigned to them long, long after they were written. The Roman writers you mentioned, based their stories on second and third hand accounts and fables. None of their information was first hand or eyewitness accounts.

And if you are going to use that tired cliche that the chritian martyrs' deaths are proof of the truth of the bible, then the 9/11 hijacker's deaths prove the Qu'ran is true. Would you agree with that?

We're skeptics because the information you so willingly believe in has been shown to be fables and fairy tales contrived to increase the membership of a small obscure religious cult about 2000 years ago.

Long live reason and critical thinking.

Jim Arvo said...

Paul,

You've been fed a bunch of half-truths. Here's a little exercise for you. Use Google to look up what Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, and Pliny the Younger wrote about Jesus. It will take you ten minutes max. Next, try to find out what their sources were, when they wrote the passages, and how trustworthy they are. That will take a few more minutes. Then come on back, share what you found, and we can discuss it. Deal?

.:webmaster:. said...

Roman historians such as Seutonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Young recorded the existence of Jesus and his miracles in their books.

To somewhat echo Jim Arvo, please provide the documentation that these men recorded the existence of Jesus and his miracles.

Do you think that if I wrote a history today saying there are Mormons in Utah and that the Mormons believe that a man named Joseph Smith was a prophet who was visited by an angel and started the Mormon movement, that I would therefore be confessing to the truth of Mormonism? Or is it more likely that I would be merely repeating what Mormons say about their religion and that none of the so-called facts are either being confirmed or denied?

I know, the question is probably too long and complicated for a fundie of this stripe.

Anonymous said...

hahaha everyone here besides the fundies are really great. you guys are a great juxtaposition when the fundies always try to work in "jesus is lord" comment. You know when you've seen a naive douche!

Harlequin said...

I think I've pretty well established my credentials as an non-believer when it comes to Christianity.

The God Who wasn't there hinges on stuff (specifically biblical quotes) that are just plain wrong.

I'm familiar with most common translations of the NT and the quote used are either just not in the form they claim, or the context is wrong.

I agree with the sentiment, but when one has to stoop to the levels that Christians use to justify their cult, you're on the wrong damn road!

IT's worth watching for the interviews and the bit about The Passion of the Christ, but the time line... it's almost like it's a something for funides to rip holes in... If I can rip holes (and I'm sympathetic audience) then it needs work...

Love

Grandpa Harley

Anonymous said...

Warnepiece, before you go criticizing others' grammar, check your own. (2nd comment). Chill out.

It's cite, not site.

Josephus said...

3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous,

My sincere apologies. It was a typo. If you will check Celestials' prior postings, you will see they are rife with mispellings, the same ones over and over again.

It's a pity we haven't all achieved your level of perfection.

Warnepiece said...

...and I noticed you didn't say anything about Celestials' spelling of "eywitnesses" and "senternce". If you'd bother to read any of Celestials other comments in other threads you'll see they use "their" instead of "there" repeatedly.

I guess when fundies make erros over and over you can overlook them.

Warnepiece said...

Let's see how quickly you can spot the "error" in my last post.

.:webmaster:. said...

Josephus, what you quoted was the famous Testimonium Flavianum.

From Wikipedia: The Christian author Origen wrote around the year 240. His writings predate the earliest quotations of the Testimonium. In his surviving works Origen fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he does mention the less significant reference by Josephus to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx.9), and also other passages from Antiquities such as the passage about John the Baptist. Furthermore, Origen states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" (Cels, i 47) "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" (Comm. Matt., x 17), but the Testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ . Because of these arguments, some scholars believe that the version of Antiquities available to Origen did not mention Jesus at this point at all.

Many modern historians reject the passage as an interpolation for several reasons inherent in the text. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity, of "sad calamities," is interrupted by this passage.

For more: click here.

Wes said...

>> Mike said, "Christ is Lord and every knee shall bow". Hahaha!! Same ol' line everytime! Hahaha! By the way - knee's don't bow, you schmuck - they simply bend, like all other joints... -Wes

twincats said...

Except for what the anony airline pilot said, I would think the rapture-ready might object to being flown around by heathens and other non-believer types (if they subscribe to the rapture websites.) I wonder if this is a problem for them?

I liked the part where the Christian school principal just left the interview in a huff. That's #2 in the Official Female's Handbook(TM) of things you can do when you're losing an argument!

Anonymous said...

The 12 apostles who supposedly wrote the New Testament, which has been the basis of possibly the largest false cult group in the world.

The reality is, the 12 apostles never existed. No one knows their names, and have you noticed they have no last names, either. THey were given Anglo-Saxon nicknames like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, because the Anglo-Saxons had no record of their real names or even existance. The Anglo-Saxons simply added pseudonyms to the unknown authors who never existed, like how their stories were never any more true than Greek Mythology.

Also, notice none of their "historical" accounts had any specific dates. Just generalizations, and many of the books providing differing accounts. Such as Jesus' crucifixion - one book says 2 days, another 3 days, and whether he was crucified on Thursday or Friday.

Anonymous said...

Just thought you might like to learn a bit about your so called Independence day July 4th.
Your teachers tell you this is to celebrate your victory over the English. What proof do you have? A few writings telling how you overcame the British.
Who wrote these books? Ever wondered why your presidents go grey and even bald overnight? Stress of the job perhaps? Or is it?
Isn't it more likely that they learn the truth that is kept from all Americans that Independence day is fiction - that the truth is America was losing the war and agreed to pay England a very substantial sum of money if they would only leave you alone.
Ever wonder why you end up fighting and losing so many wars. Get a real copy of your nations audit report and discover that these wars are a blind to hide the money that your government is paying back to Britain.
Ever wondered why your presidents always but always have a close relationship with the Prime Minister of Britain (The Kennedy's were assassinated by your own intelligence people because they were going to have nothing to do with britain)- they are worried that the whole payment and interest would be demanded in full and it would bankrupt you all.

I made all that up in about 5 minutes in the bath. How long do you think it would take for something like that to spread as truth around the world?

That is all that your anti-Bible and anti-Christian writings are. Stories. Stories made up to scare you, to scare you and deceive you into avoiding what the Bible really says about God.
How God took one very insignificant man from out of his country and made him the father of a small but, eventually, great nation. And then went on to make that small nation one of the worlds mightiest nations, out of whom came the Saviour of the whole world Jesus called the Christ, the Messiah. GOD WHO LOVED THE WHOLE WORLD so much that HE SENT HIS OWN SON so that the world might be saved through him and should not perish.
Jesus and others warned that false Christs would arise to lead people from the truth many have gone out into the world and people have followed them only to find that they were not sent out by God but by their own proclivities.

What shall we say that all Americans are murderers because so many murderers are in prison? Or shall we say that all Americans are terrorists because of the actions of two men (Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols). NO

Dont be deceived any longer, God will be found by those who seek Him.

Warnepiece said...

If you made that up while sitting in your bath, the wrong part of you is under water.

freedy said...

The fictional story of "Christ "is a great tale filled with high drama and action.

It's no wonder why so many people are caught up in this incredible fantasy.

I no longer want to live in this made up fairy tale,but choose to live out my remaining days in the real world!

Those fundies who continue to visit here must be harboring doubt and unbelief,..what's the point?

*Me thinks they protest too much!

Jim Arvo said...

Thanks for sharing that, Anonymous. Bye now.

Astreja said...

Good stuff in this video, although I had to look away during the PotC violence.

Absolutely appalled at how little the believers know about the mythological origins of their own faith tradition.

Horrified by the schoolmaster who switched between "this is faith" and "this is reality" as needed to support his child-traumatizing mission.

And Brian Fleming's closing statement in that chapel evoked a sympathetic "Yes!" from me. All in all, I consider this an hour very well spent.

SpaceMonk said...

"I made all that up in about 5 minutes in the bath. How long do you think it would take for something like that to spread as truth around the world?"

2000 years?

SpaceMonk said...

Anyway, I don't see much difference between sucking Satan's greasy cock or God's greasy cock.

Anonymous said...

warnepiece: and how would you know?
dave harty: if i had never read the bible i would at any rate see the wonders and proof of god in every living thing and creature. have you seen the photos from the hubble? these are images that stir your being. i recently went to the monterey aquarium. the jellyfish room is magnificent. the diversity of life is amazing. when i see something like that, i feel the presence of god. thats the only proof i need. not everything can be explained. feelings and emotions are basic to us as human biengs and have value and meaning.
religion isnt that bad an idea. for example, the 10 commandments aren't a bad set of rules to live by, they make alot of sense at the very least.

spacemonk: and all the others that feel they have to make comments like that to defend themselves - you are truly sad individuals.

Anonymous said...

warnepiece: and how would you know?
dave harty: if i had never read the bible i would at any rate see the wonders and proof of god in every living thing and creature. have you seen the photos from the hubble? these are images that stir your being. i recently went to the monterey aquarium. the jellyfish room is magnificent. the diversity of life is amazing. when i see something like that, i feel the presence of god. thats the only proof i need. not everything can be explained. feelings and emotions are basic to us as human biengs and have value and meaning.
religion isnt that bad an idea. for example, the 10 commandments aren't a bad set of rules to live by, they make alot of sense at the very least.

spacemonk: and all the others that feel they have to make comments like that to defend themselves - you are truly sad individuals.

SpaceMonk said...

Anony: "...if i had never read the bible i would at any rate see the wonders and proof of god in every living thing and creature. have you seen the photos from the hubble? ...(snip)...i see something like that, i feel the presence of god. thats the only proof i need."

The only proof you need?
I'm afraid Jesus would disagree with you.
After all, he ordered evangelism, so obviously such feelings aren't enough.

Do those feeling contain an inherent knowledge that the God who created all this then sent his only begotten Son to make up for the sins of someone called Adam (who was the original man and so cursed us all), then that Son was crucified but rose again, so conquering death and redeeming us all, but that all we have to do is accept this sacrifice and we can go to some kind of heaven?
- and that if we don't we're going to an eternal lake of fire (or eternal seperation from god if you're one of those)...

Because, you know, "Jesus is the only way to heaven", "there is no salvation in any other"
...so all those nice feelings that nature inspires in you don't testify to anything that will actually save your ass from the vengeful biblegod.

So, whatever you're sensing, it's not biblegod.


"feelings and emotions are basic to us as human biengs and have value and meaning."

Yet biblegod would ignore this inherent value we humans have and cast us into eternal torment, simply because we haven't heard the 'good news'...

SpaceMonk said...

And I'm not that sad.

What's sad is people like you preaching happy, touchy, feely, lovey crap, yet worshipping a sadistic, uncaring, vengeful bastard of a god, hoping, praying and waiting for some day when we are all either sucking his or Satan's greasy cock.

You can't see that we are all of individual value and that no one, god or not, is any more or less inherently valuable than any other.
We are our own sovereign. We are our own God.
Jesus is not Lord.
I AM the Lord MY God!
My knee will bow to no one.

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous,

Since you are too chickenshit to identify yourself, I won't bother answering your stupid question.

(How would you know?)...what a dipstick!!!

Anonymous said...

Thoughts of a supposed human,

Being a Christian is like trying to be a man, or woman you are either one or you are not, and you have no choice in it at all. It's not a matter of Choice, for we are not intelligent enough about the matter to make that choice, Choices as such are not placed in our infirmed minds...

Freewill is bull-dung!

Question: Did you choose to be born, and if so did you choose to be male or female? Did you choose the nation you were born in? Did you choose to be black or white or any other color, Did you choose your nationality? Did you choose your time of birth? Did you choose your parents? Did you choose to be born rich or poor? These are a lot of choices, that, you, or we, did not make, to have free-will or Free-choice, are they not?

Brain-less

SpaceMonk said...

OK Brain-less, so what's the point of life?
Why are we here then?

Warnepiece said...

At least anonymous of 12/10/06 at 8:23 AM signed their post at the bottom.

Anonymous said...

If Jesus never existed that would mean there are no Christians! They are all just pretending. what a sorry ass religion Xtianity is eh?

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous who wrote "what a sorry ass religion Xtianity is",

EXACTLY!

Anonymous said...

Jesus is as real as George Washington. And much of the proof for both is the same. Proof #1:Documents written by long dead people speak of both of them. Proof #2: Various paintings by dead folk that found their subject interesting,is proof for both Jesus AND Washingtion having being real people. And I'm sure that there is other ways to prove both lived.

However, their is better proof of Jesus being born than there is for G.W. If the reader wishes to put on his logic cap and find someone who can explain the prophecy of Daniel, they will be convinced. The prophecy includes unique and precisely timed world events over a period of about 2500 years. Only an omnipotent being could have revealed to Daniel such a complex and totally accurate list of events to come in the future.

Of course most will just wag their head and think that I am bluffing or lying, and thats their right, but if they choose that route they will soon wish they had checked out Daniel's prophecies.
Jim

PS: The prophecy is multi-facited and you will probably need someone to get you started. In some places it is in symbolic language, in others it is slightly cryptic but a KEY is available to support each symbolic premise. Once it it understood correctly it reveals a MIRACLE that only an infinite God could accomplish. About 550 years before Chirst was born the prophecy gave the precise date thereof. Hundereds of years before the Roman Empire came into existence the prophecy revealed it would happen. A few more hunderds of years and the Catholic Church came into existence, EXACTLY on time, according to the prophecy.

PPS: It was because of this prophecy that I am an engineer who fully believed in evolution, but am now a Christian.

The choice is yours, of course, but let me assure you, you WILL wish you had thoroughly checked it out for yourself.

Anonymous said...

On 12/07/06, Mike said, "Christ is Lord and every knee shall bow". Hahaha!! Same ol' line everytime! Hahaha! By the way - knee's don't bow, you schmuck - they simply bend, like all other joints... -Wes

Hello Wes:
Perhaps you reject the Bible because you are having difficulty inderstanding the sometime strange words found in it. In your paragraph above. You misinterpreted what almost everyone who reads a lot fully understands, that the phrase: " every knee shall bow" simply means to bow. It makes sense, since as you implied, a knee is needed to bow properly. The longer words version is found in many older writings and even some modern writings.

PS: Joints don't bend very well, they include hinges like mechanisms that allows for the correct movements to take place for a bow.

Anonymous said...

The book of Daniel is an historical document, written after events have occurred. No magic involved, wow, imagine that.

.:webmaster:. said...

a knee is needed to bow properly.

In that case, legless people won't have to bow, I guess.

boomSLANG said...

Jesus is as real as George Washington.

No, I'm sorry, Anon...but this analogy---ironically, one that Christians frequently use---is flawed. I'll give you some reasons why. But first off, I noticed that you closed your post with the following statement in regards to "Jesus being real":

The choice is yours, of course, but let me assure you, you WILL wish you had thoroughly checked it out for yourself.

Okay, in regards to "being real", where are the equivalent veiled threats and/or conditions that are contingent upon the belief in George Washington? What?...you say there ARE none? That's right....that's because you are free to deny belief in George Washington. No one is saying that you "WILL wish" you had believed in George Washington. What that means, is that one can examine the evidence for the existance for George Washington, OBJECTIVELY, and freely. The same cannot be said for examining the existance of Jesus, however. The latter scenario is completely subjective, as there is "eternal torture" for the non-belief in "Jesus". Understood? Fantastic...so now that that is out of the way, we can examine the facts freely.

Anony, there are library shelves FULL of biographical literature on the life of George Washington, some of which, was written by friends and family members who lived IN HIS LIFETIME. Did you get that? Excellent. And additionally, there even exists portions of hand written letters which are AUTO-biographical, in nature. Notwithstanding, let me ask----what would be the point in denying the veracity of such documents? If you are disputing it, then on WHAT grounds? What?..it's not like George Washington will bite you with his wooden teeth for eternity or chop down the tree in your yard if you don't believe he existed. So I wonder, do you also deny the existance of the rest of history's dead presidents? Explain.

However, their is better proof of Jesus being born than there is for G.W.

LOL. Um, this is totally absurd. Really, it is. Anon, how many "virgin" births have been witnessed and/or verified since the alleged "virgin birth" of Jesus? How many? ZERO, right? Yet, you are asking us to believe that a female human being was impregnated by a frickin' ghost, all the while telling us that that is more likely to have happened, than normal child birth between two mortal human beings. Please, think about about what you're saying, m'kay? The "virgin birth" is a FABLE...it is not real, no matter how bad you want to live forever in heaven...and yes, this is the only reason people suspend logical thinking, other wise, the believe in such non-sense is IMPOSSIBLE. Thanks.

If the reader wishes to put on his logic cap and find someone who can explain the prophecy of Daniel, they will be convinced. The prophecy includes unique and precisely timed world events over a period of about 2500 years. Only an omnipotent being could have revealed to Daniel such a complex and totally accurate list of events to come in the future.

Please list any "Daniel prophecy" you please, and show that it is clearly a detailed "telling" of future events. D-E-T-A-I-L-E-D. In other words, this or that country will "fight it's enemies" wouldn't be acceptable, because it's too ambiguous and/or generalized. I mean, seriously, a "perfect" and "omniscient" being wouldn't be ambiguous in such matters, would she?

SpaceMonk said...

"Proof #2: Various paintings by dead folk that found their subject interesting,is proof for both Jesus AND Washingtion having being real people."

Are you for real?
There are no portraits of Jesus.
Nobody painted him while he was alive.
Who ever told you that was lying, and you were too intellectually dishonest to check it out for yourself.

As for Daniel, the Jews have their own interpretation which discounts the christian one.
Check it out for yourself here:
http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/Daniel9.html

So now who are we supposed to wish we had believed?


Prophecies, and knowledge of stories or even histories, cannot be a necessity for salvation - if there is any fairness to a god like the one in the bible.

By making it necessary to know certain stories, and accept them, then you are automatically damning all those who 'have not heard'.

So if there really is a loving merciful and fair god out there then wouldn't it be more likely that whatever way to salvation is 'necessary', then it would be made available to all of us equally, whether we are born in famine starved Ethiopia or rich fat America?

Something within ourselves, that can be accessed by our own minds, available to all, rather than any temporal story, or physical book that we may or may not come across in our lifetime.

Logic, reason, conscience.

These are better ways of 'salvation' and enlightenment than any book.
These are things we need to engage, and develop, and grow into - rather than just having our truth handed to us, or our salvation be done for us.

You just need to think a bit more deeply, and question more thoroughly.

Re. 'wishing' I had done anything different
...if I end up in an eternal hell for not buying into the buybull then I will know I was right not to do so - because it's god will have proved himself unmerciful, and so unworthy of my respect.

My knee will not bow just because he may be the biggest and the toughest.

Wes said...

>>
Hello Wes:
Perhaps you reject the Bible because you are having difficulty inderstanding the sometime strange words found in it. In your paragraph above. You misinterpreted what almost everyone who reads a lot fully understands, that the phrase: " every knee shall bow" simply means to bow. It makes sense, since as you implied, a knee is needed to bow properly. The longer words version is found in many older writings and even some modern writings.
>>

You're shitting me, right? You actually took the time to pick that apart? Wow. Most people would just understand...

Anyway, no - I have no difficulty understanding your bible. Sorry - your silly book is devoid of anything relative and meaningful in todays world, and in particular, my life. I've read that pile of garbage more than I care to admit - that's why I am out of your stupid club. Hey - until your group can manage to raise its credibility just a little, and perhaps demonstrate that it actually has something to contribute to humankind, please don't bother posting in my direction again. Until that day comes, I will take care to avoid your holy cult just like I continue to avoid my dog's dookie in the back yard... -Wes.

Wes said...

>>In that case, legless people won't have to bow, I guess.
>>

Ha ha; yeah - I often wonder why we would be bowing anyway - are we kneeling in worship, or are we gonna be.. Oh, no - dirty thought. God is supposed to be a male, right? Ech... -Wes.

Anonymous said...

Jesus is REAL! I know this as a fact he lives in my heart! He has changed my life. The Historical Jesus is also real Read Josh McDowel 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict" if your not convinced then you have a problem.
Guys Jesus can change you..Ask yourself do you want to end up in an eternity away from Jesus? Burn in a Lake of fire FOREVER!!!??
Anyway time is short..the rapture is soon..can happen today..Turn to Jesus and repent! Happiness is the LORD!!!!!
Tom P Jones

Warnepiece said...

Tom P Jones wrote “Jesus is REAL! I know this as a fact he lives in my heart! He has changed my life. The Historical Jesus is also real Read Josh McDowel 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict" if your not convinced then you have a problem.
Guys Jesus can change you..Ask yourself do you want to end up in an eternity away from Jesus? Burn in a Lake of fire FOREVER!!!??
Anyway time is short..the rapture is soon..can happen today..Turn to Jesus and repent! Happiness is the LORD!!!!!”

Hey Tom , in what part of your heart does the real Jesus reside? Does he take up space in the left or right ventricle? Or is it in the atria? Even if Jesus is tiny, that has got to cause some complications with your heart’s functioning. I guess he can change you in that respect, by having your heart malfunction because he is blocking the blood flow.

I’ve read Josh McDowell’s work. He is dishonest and disingenuous. I don’t mind having a problem with that!

And for good measure, you throw in Pascal’s Wager. How original!

I’m now in my mid 50s. Since 1959, every couple of years I hear some christian preach, write or argue, ‘The rapture is almost here. It will happen within (2, 5, 7 years, the decade, or, within our lifetimes…take your pick).” How is your threat any different? Is that how you win people to jesus, by threatening them with eternal torture? People don’t need to love god or jesus; they just need to fear hell. Then they’ll become good Christians.

Tom E Bones said...

Tom P Jones: Jesus is REAL! I know this as a fact he lives in my heart!"

Is he suffocating?

Tom P Jones: "He has changed my life. The Historical Jesus is also real Read Josh McDowel 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict" if your not convinced then you have a problem."

Here's the jury, and the Verdict is in - McDowell has a lot of splainin to do.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/

Tom P Jones: "Guys Jesus can change you..Ask yourself do you want to end up in an eternity away from Jesus? Burn in a Lake of fire FOREVER!!!??"

Wow, you are able to talk about FOREVER, have you been there? Where is FOREVER per se?

Tom P Jones: "Anyway time is short..the rapture is soon..can happen today..Turn to Jesus and repent! Happiness is the LORD!!!!!"

More inclined to believe happiness is in your mind.