2/26/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Logical Proof that God doesn't exist - Prayer

By Sailorfraud

The Bible says God is almighty who answers your prayers. So how do you know if God is real other than that faith crap? Try the power of prayer when an earthly situation occurs which is beyond your control and only an almighty God who created the universe and all life can control.

Suppose you or a close family member has a terminal disease like cancer which cannot be medically cured? A certain time line is given, so like all hopeful human beings, you humbly and diligently pray to the almighty God who says in the Bible he answers prayers. Time and reality passes, the disease takes it's toll, and your prayers go unanswered.

Maybe one in a million may be saved, but looking at a 99.9999% failure rate for prayer is evidence that God does not exist. Now, compare it to an atheist who suffers the same terminal disease and wishes for healing. The same 99.9999% failure rate occurs.

Now compare it to a devout Muslim suffering the same terminal disease and prays to his/her god for healing, and still results in a 99.9999% failure rate. Similarly, the Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, etc... all face 99.9999% failure rates.

Doesn't this indicate you you that there is no God? Perhaps one of the numerous worshiped gods do exist, but wouldn't that omnipotent god produce better than a 99.9999% failure rate, or else what is the purpose of worshiping that god if he doesn't answer your prayers? Doesn't common logic and sense exist anymore?

247 comments:

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Steven Bently said...

As quoted before on this website.

"Prayer makes one feel like they have done something, when in all reality, they have done nothing."

jim earl said...

Most people (religious) believe that their god answers prayer. If someone has a terminal illness and dies, it was the will of their god. If they somehow survive, it was a miracle.

Prayer works because people believe it works. In reality, the things prayed for have a 50-50 chance of being answered. But when someone believes if they pray for, say, a new job and they have to stay at the old job instead, they believe their prayers were answered nonetheless.

I don't believe in prayer and also don't believe any prayers have ever been answered anywhere in the world. Show me some proof and I will change my mind. Of course, I have been saying this for years now and haven't seen anything to change my mind. I don't expect anything to change because their would have to be a god to answer prayers and there are no gods. Only believers. That people can't see this is unbelievable to me.

ryan said...

One can take whatever happens and call it god.

Suppose your daughter is out driving through Indianapolis; she returns safely; thank god.

She narrowly misses an accident; thank god.

She is involved in a fender-bender; thank god it wasn't worse.

She totals the car; thank god for sparing her life.

She is injured slightly; thank god she is okay.

She is crippled for life; thank god she is alive.

She is dead; praise god, who giveth and taketh away.

We all know how this works. If everything that happens is the will of god, then how is god ever verifiable?

Anonymous said...

The three possible answers to prayer are yes, no or not now but whatever the outcome it is always "Gods will". The dillema is that I always get the same results when I pray to a rock.

ryan said...

I spent some time hanging around with charismatic types. They insisted that god would answer prayers if one believed enough. When a prayer wasn't answered, it simply meant one lacked faith. Heads god wins; tails god wins.

Is there a name for this fallacy.

Chris said...

Jim Earl: Actually many things have a much lower chance than 50/50 of being "answered." For instance, I don't have a 50/50 chance of winning the lottery or living forever.

And Sailorfraud, you're throwing out numbers here without any references. I'm assuming you made these numbers up to prove a point, but it doesn't work that way. And actually, it's been shown that prayer does help when attempting to overcome diseases. The mechanism by which it works isn't totally clear, but it's most likely psychological. Our mental health is closely tied to our physical health (afterall, our mind is part of our physical bodies).

But is prayer to the Hindu gods any more effective than prayer to Yahweh or Allah? Doubtful, since I don't believe these gods exist and it's the state of mind that makes healing "miracles" occur.

mike said...

Even Christians dont believe in the "power of prayer" totally. When they get very sick they run to the doctor. Could it be that in their hearts they know that in serious things prayer does not really work. For instance, if they believe that it is "Gods will" no matter the outcome, why go to the doctor and try to be healed? Would it not be logical to just pray and see what happens?

As I say, I do not think christians really believe half of what they spout off about from the pulpits.

Jamie said...

Chris, one of the things that made me start to question a lot more was when I looked for the research that I had heard about regarding prayer and healing. I started with google, as usual, and it wasn't long before I discovered that the study results could not be replicated, and subsequent studies showed no difference between people who were prayed for and people who were not...

.:webmaster:. said...

testing -- again

Just Rick said...

Some research into prayer even show that praying for illness could bring about worse results : http://www.physorg.com/news63551345.html

Micah Cowan said...

@ ryan,

I'm not certain it falls precisely into this category, but it's remarkably similar to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: "God answers all prayers of pure faith, if God didn't answer it, it wasn't a prayer of pure faith."

.:webmaster:. said...

test still

xrayman said...

I think prayer could have a positive effect on a conscious patient because of the placebo effect, but if they are asleep or unconscious it ain't going to make a bit of a difference if a whole stadium of people pray for them.

One of my favorite lines I have read as of late had to do with medical miracles. It stated that anything that we call a medical miracle is simply a highly unlikely, but statistically possible outcome. If a patient has a one in 10,000 chance of survival, one in 10,000 will beat the odds plain and simple just as one in 10,000 will die from a virtually mortality free proceedure such a a tonsilectomy. It works both ways.

Anonymous said...

Chris says:
And actually, it's been shown that prayer does help when attempting to overcome diseases. The mechanism by which it works isn't totally clear, but it's most likely psychological. Our mental health is closely tied to our physical health (afterall, our mind is part of our physical bodies).


You better clarify these studies. As in a true double blind experiment, those being prayed for would have no idea anyone is praying for them, and those praying have no idea who they are praying for.

This is to eliminate the placebo effect and any other inadvertent bias by the patient, doctor, and researchers.

When you speak of the placebo effect, then either the patients are actively engaged in prayer or they know they are being prayed for.

I believe it has been shown in studies that known prayer may be about as effective as the patient performing meditation or other mental exercises.

boomSLANG said...

Third party "prayer", or distant healing, has been proven time and time again to be ineffective in double-blind testing. Although I can't reference it this second, I read one study on heart patients that even said that the patient who is aware that they are being prayed for might actually be burdened with this knowledge. It would only make sense. "Golly, if I don't get well, then that must mean that God doesn't", or "isn't"....this, or that.

As mentioned by a few here already--the only capacity prayer might work in is as a placebo. Similar to how a sugar pill might "work" as a "cure-all" for some people, provided they don't know it's sugar. Enlighten the subject that this "miraculous" drug they've been taking all along isn't valid, and... dInG dOnG!..no more "miracles".

'Funny how that works.

sailerfraud said...

Thanks for commenting on this unbelievably simple logical proof that is so simple to understand, it becomes most difficult for the religious fanatics out there to grasp.

I am the author of this post. No video, multimedia, expensive props, or crap to confuse or deceive. The message is so simple, but as George Orwell once stated, "To see in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle".

That's my point, whether you pray to Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc... for healing, the reality is that you will receive the same results and outcome as praying to a rock, tree, or a dead God like Zeus.

sailerfraud said...

Chris said:

"And actually, it's been shown that prayer does help when attempting to overcome diseases. The mechanism by which it works isn't totally clear, but it's most likely psychological. Our mental health is closely tied to our physical health (afterall, our mind is part of our physical bodies). "

I remember reading that Yoga has proven to help heal people because it puts people's mind at ease and connnects a calm healthy mental state to your physical state.

I think the calm prayers may benefit with their health, but on the other hand, the angry shouting religious fanatics easily face degraded health and more problems. It really has more to to with putting your mental state in good health - which again proves there is no god.

Telmi said...

Jesus says [Mark 16.18]:
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well

Christians who are faithful to the words of Christ should try putting his words to the test; but I have to add a caveat: I am not to be held responsible for any adverse outcome from drinking deadly poison. But they can try praying for the sick in hospitals and then evaluate the outcome. One thing is for sure: we would not require hospitals, doctors, nurses, medicines etc if prayer really works.

Lorena said...

Well, I am a firm believer in the placebo effect. Like someone said, "It is not the object of your faith that's important but the fact that you have faith in something."

The placebo effect has repeatedly shown that when people put their faith in sugar pills often they receive healing.

I believe that the fact that the object of the our faith is irrelevant proves that, at least when it comes to physical healing, our brain is obedient and does what we tell it to do.

Anonymous said...

While I am against Religious extremism and fundamentalism I think this is absolutely disgusting!
What if someone at a horribly low point in their life who's only hope is faith in God reads this?
Do you really want to take that away from them?
I have experienced the power of prayer and I can safely assure you that it was no "placebo" affect and I'm the biggest skeptic of them all.
And I have known of people who were healed of terminal and incurable diseases through prayer. What do you say to that?
Perhaps the reason why God doesn't answer your prayers is that your prayers are nothing more than 2 minute rants demanding God come and fix it up.
You have to first of all get over yourself if you want god to do anything for you and secondly you have to believe and be PATIENT.

.:webmaster:. said...

“I have known of people who were healed of terminal and incurable diseases through prayer. What do you say to that?”

The same thing I say to every Christian who says that: show me the evidence.

Surely with God miraculously healing so many people, there should be little need for doctors or hospitals anymore. I mean, if prayer is such a wonderfully powerful thing, I would think that two or three Christians could get together, agree that just one local hospital should be emptied by healing all those within, and then just pray that it happen!

If two or three thousand Christians get together and agree on praying that everyone is just one small town hospital is miraculously healed, what do you think will happen?

I dare any church, anywhere, at any time, to try and pray a hospital empty. Even if it were only to last ONE DAY, I'd sit up and take notice.

Jesus said his disciples would do greater things than even he did. Yet the hospitals remain brimming with business.

Nothing fails like prayer.

dano said...

Anonymous,
You bible believing, born again, praying fools, got George Bush elected president so he could start a war with Muslims, and show his daddy how it ought to be done.

OK, now we have 30 or 40 thousand young kids trying to survive with severe brain injures, and missing limbs, and it ain't over yet.

I have a suggestion for you, since you have the praying thing down pat. Before you and your prayer group start on emptying out the regular hospitals of the injured and diseased, as the webmaster suggested, why don't you start at the V/A hospitals, specifically the brain injury and amputee wards. It would be like "payback" for your part in causing their predicament in the first place.

Go around to all of your friends and ask them if they voted Republican, and if they say yes, recruit them into your prayer army.

When you get all of the young men and women put back together, you can get God to help America find a solution to another of George's favorite boondoggles.

How can we as a country afford to give free health care, and generally look after 30,000,000 illegal aliens, when they are sending most of the money they make here back to their countries of origin, and contribute nothing to our society?

Dan (Anonymous, there is sooooo much to pray for)

sailerfraud said...

Hey anonymous (why do you hide your name if God is so almighty), here's a real personal story on healing.

I've been a Christian for over 20 years. I realized that the crime, alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce, suicide, and dirt factor rates of Christians are equal or sometimes greater than that of the non-Christian population.

I knew a faithful Christian couple in their early 20s alomst ready to marry. One day, the man got a gun, shot his girlfriend, then shot himself dead for no apparent reason.

I knew pastors who had to resign and even wre arrested for embezzlement, adultery, assult, and pornography charges.

I knew a 26 year old devout Christian woman who had cancer. Every week, the church prayed for healing, but the cancer continued its normal course. After one year, she died and the prayer had absolutely no effect.

Anonymous, my point is that this shit will happen anyway in the world. Whether you pray to your god Yahweh/Jehovah, or to Allah, Buddha, or to the tree or sun god, or to the stars in the night (which is where every religion evolved - astrology), the crime, murder, suicide, injustices, disease, etc... will continue.

Face the facts - there is no God.

ryan said...

It gives me the world of pleasure to respond to anonymous:

I have encountered your kind. Your approach is that we are childish and petulant and we will not allow god to have his way. We are spoiled children, demanding and peevish.

Alright anonymous, I am going to hand this back to you, and see how you like it.

You are a sorry weakling and a sorry coward. How many years have you spent grovelling on your knees before your sorry jew god, which your sorry xristian religion has kept mummified all these centuries? Hmmmm? How many years? How many years have you spent in your pathetic prayers, and making excuses when no answer came?

I'll tell you something, asshole.......the people you are speaking to simply had the guts to get off their knees. They grew up. Why don't you try it?

And what the fucking hell do you mean by "2 minute rants"? Do you think we are here because we threw a tantrum for 2 minutes and the jew wouldn't wipe our asses? Listen, you adolescent piece of shit, some of us have been xristians since before you were old enough to jerk off, or before you knew you had a dick, or before you knew what to do with it. Look, shit, we just grew up. Now pull your pants up and get out of here.

ryan said...

And just one more little thing:

Reference the first 3 lines of your post, do I want to take away someone's faith during a low point in their lives. Yes, I would, without a moment's hesitation. They would have to take adult responsibility for the first time; they would have to grow up, instead of whimpering to the jewzoo.

It would not be a problem if all you jew babies would just stay in your collective nuthouse, but you keep coming out to vote. Voting is a kind of prayer to you. You cannot take responsibility like a citizen, you have to vote for jewzoo. Go back to your nuthouse.

boomSLANG said...

Well, I am a firm believer in the placebo effect. Like someone said, "It is not the object of your faith that's important but the fact that you have faith in something."

With all due respect, this misses the point. No one is denying that prayer "might" work as a placebo. The point is, that IF prayer works in such a way, it's solely because of the power of suggestion....not because of some external "source" influencing the outcome..i.e.."God". Obviously, the whole premise of "prayer" is that it's a direct line of communication to whichever "God" the subject subscribes to.

The placebo effect has repeatedly shown that when people put their faith in sugar pills often they receive healing.

Again, this misrepresents the placebo effect. If a sugar pill "heals" someone, it's because the patient didn't know they were taking sugar pills. That's the whole point....to essentially "fool" the patient into "believing" it works. Furthermore, I highly doubt that anyone would pay 8, 9, 10 dollars per "pill" while knowing it's only "sugar", when they could just buy their own sugar much cheaper at the local grocery store....or hell, steal it from Denny's(but Christians wouldn't do that, right?) lol.

I believe that the fact that the object of the our faith is irrelevant proves that, at least when it comes to physical healing, our brain is obedient and does what we tell it to do.

A positive mental outlook helps, true...but if "our brains" always did what we "tell" them to do, physical ailments and disease would've been obsolete long ago.

xrayman said...

I have a very dear friend who isn't very religious but is convinced beyond a reasonalbe doubt that God answered her prayers to save her Golden Retriever from being put to sleep. Her dog has a very bad joint disorder which has been put in check by mondern vetinary medicine, mainly though doggy steriods.

She knows I am an atheist, but tells me often that God has given her more time with her dog, as if God just says, "Fuck those starving little bastards in Africa, I Just happen to be a God who loves Golden Retrievers more than kids."

Lorena said...

Boomslang,

Since nobody here is "God," we are likely to say things that are half-truths. I posted something I believe, not claiming that it is absolute truth.

That's how I see your post, too. Your views, your ideas, not absolute truth.

I'd like to make a comment on something you said,

"A positive mental outlook helps, true...but if "our brains" always did what we "tell" them to do, physical ailments and disease would've been obsolete long ago."

I disagree. It is very difficult to change one's mind to a positive outlook when you have been raised to be negative.

I have no idea what would happen if everyone were positive and believed in themselves. But getting everybody to feel that way is the real challenge--since most people are quite negative.

boomSLANG said...

Lorena, I think you might've misunderstood me. I've said nothing from a position of all-knowing absoluteness. You merely misrepresented(maybe inadvertently) how a "placebo" actually works, and I pointed that out. Here is your original statement:

The placebo effect has repeatedly shown that when people put their faith in sugar pills often they receive healing.

Again, the whole point I'm trying to make is that the patient doesn't know that it's sugar they been "putting their faith in". They've been led to believe that what they've been taking is a "cure-all" drug, hence, that's why it "works". I'm not denying that placebos help people, nor am I saying that the mind isn't a powerful thing, nor am I saying that I'm omniscient, etc.

Peace.

eel_shepherd said...

Speaking of faith, it's rather touching to see a few of the members responding to the anonymous Xtian. That person will never see the comments; that's not their pattern, which is to: i] half-read the comments prior to their own; ii] do a drive-by witnessing; and iii] run away.

I've read it somewhere that god is the ultimate consumer good --- when it fails, the customers blame themselves.

I think that god (and prayers, just so you know I haven't forgotten the topic of the thread) is the ultimate divide-by-zero error. It appears to be infinite when what it is is nonexistant.

Also (to quixotically respond to the anonymous Xtian...), most of us are not interested in taking the hope away from someone who's in desperate straits, whose sanity is temporarily just hanging by a thread, praying frantically for the god to take the heat off them for a while so they can get through the night. It's to try and get the rank-and-file religionist to knock it off with their day to day, room-temperature routine "praying", and to get onto the reality principle instead.

They'd be better off if instead of making like Aladdin, rubbing away at the magic lantern and making wishes to the invisible genie, they'd spend the time rubbing their weenies and wishing for an orgasm.

Maybe that wasn't very Christian of me. I should have said that they should rub someone _else's_ weenie and hope that the _other_ person has an orgasm. Very selfish of me...

sailerfraud said...

Christians, actually all religious wingnuts, always have to make the simply obvious so complex, painful, and deceptive. Their whole life is full of lies.

One of the greatest philiospphical questons about God is, "If God is so good and all-powerful, why does evil and injustice exist in the world?"


Atheist answer: "Because there is no God". (How simple and straightforward can you get?!)


Christian answer: "Because blah, blah, blah, blah - (continues with endless logical fallacies, half-turths, bizzare speculaion). Blah, blah, blah, (after endless chatter, still cannot answer the question, and ultimately gives that faith crap as sign of defeat which they arrogantly cannot admit).

sailerfraud said...

That's another point to debunk these arrogant Christians. It's been over 2000 years since this supposed Jesus Christ mythological figure rose from the dead and became God.

If after 2000 years and no answers to these "tough" questions like unanswered prayers or the validity of Jesus/God, and no evidence an answer will be provided, that is proof there is no God.

stephen GodsWitness said...

God loves you and I, Jesus came to earth to pay the price for the choice we made. He feels pain when he sees those kids in africa starving. But he can't help us cos it was our choice.
Imagine how happy you would be if you were walking one day. and saw a 20 dollar note on the ground. happy wouldnt you.

Would you suffer a blow to the head for $20? some wud say yes some wud say no-some would say yes and wud pass out and let the $20 pass away.
But say that you had to suffer a blow to the head every day-it was your lifestyle. How much more happier would you be if you recieved a $20 note now?

What wud demonstrate more love:
some giving someone $20 to a rich person?
or someone giving a poor person $20

You see everyone EVERYONE who is FILLED WITH GODS SPIRIT will suffer. everyone on this Earth will expeience suffering.

For someone who is being burned at the stake because of their belief in God-so many people around can see the love they have for God. They see the pain they are undergoing and are touched.

But someone may be burned at the stake for stealing. No real people will look at that person with admiration.No one will feel like that person is will powered but is rather receiving a punishment.
How much more fulfilled could someones life be when they kno they are living for a greater cause. to leave this world of pain and suffering and head for their fathers arms who has been calling them the whole time.

Reasons for suffering and pain-Atheist-There is no God.

Reasons for suffering and pain-Christian-It is our choice to undergo what we are undergoing. That one day we may see how much God wants us back.

How much more fulfilled is the life of one of God's kids? Where would suffering go if we all made that decision..
read over your comments and your attitude - God loves us - nothing can stop it. And he is asking you very guys to show it to other people.

Astreja said...

"Witness" Steve said:

Reasons for suffering and pain-Atheist-There is no God.

It's obvious from that one comment that you are rather inexperienced in your encounters with non-believers.

A lack of gods is not a "reason for suffering and pain." In my opinion, there simply is no "reason".

Stuff happens. People clash with other people over important things, stupid things, and sometimes just because they feel like having an argument or fistfight.

Stuff happens. You turn around too fast and knock your coffee off the desk. Someone else gets your parking spot. The clerk at the store counts out your change wrong.

Stuff happens. Your family genes carry a defective allele that increases your odds of catching an incurable disease.

Witness, you have it backwards. When stuff happens, it happens. And, from what I've seen in my life so far, there are no miraculous interventions that stop it from happening.

Random outbreaks of suffering and pain are not caused by a lack of gods. However, they do indicate to me that waiting and praying for divine assistance is generally a waste of valuable time.

stephen said...

yeah, stuff does happen.
I wish i could get to know you ;)

smart noggin :)

I guess in a way i just explained my self wrong-personally i must confess that im not like other christians. so I guess me being a seventh day adventist. I see as God as someone who i can talk to-a best friend. Not an almighty deliver that is to blame for all the stuff happening around on this planet. Thats sins fault. and God is not here to take sin away-but to take OUR sins away.

may i ask- If God doesn't exist how did the world become like it is today? im not being rude or challenging im just wondering..

btw: when i said Atheists reasons for suffering I was kinda using the text style of someone else up that page-thats all.

please dont close off your mind...keep it open. Dont treat it like you lose if your wrong.

but m8..if stuff happens how does that show God isn't real?

Astreja said...

Witness Steve: "I see as God as someone who i can talk to-a best friend."

You know, I have no problems at all with that kind of belief.

"May i ask - If God doesn't exist how did the world become like it is today?"

Well, quite frankly... We don't know yet. There are a lot of theories as to the hows and whys of it all, but no definitive answers.

I'm just not prepared to accept pre-packaged explanations from religious books of any faith. It runs contrary to my upbringing in a family full of scientists. I would rather keep wondering than accept the first convenient or comforting answer.

"If stuff happens how does that show God isn't real?"

Well, it doesn't. Doesn't prove; doesn't disprove. But personally I think that any gods out there are just as subject to the law of cause and effect as the rest of us.

Stephen said...

ok I understand - so you don't have a problem with God being a friend? I must say though i am a 100% convinced creationist.

Maybe you should check out the story of creation. I mean like their is no other place that we got this 7-day week from. WE get our months from the moon, our years from the son but no one knows where the 7 day week came from. You get what I'm saying. Maybe you should look into the bible, not as a christian but as an investigator not a wonder - wondering doesn't accomplish much.

One way the bible shows convincing knowledge of God is the predictions it makes. Prediction 2000 years prior.

If you search for answers and you have shut out the bible I suggest you re-direct your thinking. You come from a scientific background right? If you actually have a look at some stuff you'll see how scientifically the Bible is. How recently have we been doing open body surgery? Not too long, yet it is one of the first thing mentioned in the Bible.
I hope you do find your answers what ever they may be.

eel_shepherd said...

Stephen wrote:
"...I mean like their is no other place that we got this 7-day week from. WE get our months from the moon, our years from the son but no one knows where the 7 day week came from..."

You're kidding, right? Is this really the calibre of the arguments you bring to this matter? The mysterious origins of the 7-day week?

Here's a question for you: Does the Moon go around the Earth twelve times per year? Let's do the math. The lunar period is 28 days. How many times does 28 go into 365? Twelve? Bit more like thirteen, isn't it?

A person might be tempted to speculate that the seven days of the week maybe appealed to the ancients; maybe they found it convenient to assign a time period to each of the four phases of the Moon. (New Moon, Full Moon, and the phases where the left and the right sides are in the Sun's light.) You'd hafta ask them, though... Maybe someone wrote it down somewhere. Don't know, don't care; where it didn't come from is some non-existent Yahweh character.

Anonymous said...

Actually the bible didn't say that God created everything in 6 earthly days. It might be 6 days of cosmic time..because the 1st day the sun was not even created...but we must understand that God in fact has created everything, bcoz that it what matters most....And about the cambrian period...how do u all explain that so many differen species of life forms burst into existence in such a short period of time..It just contradicts natural selection

Jim Arvo said...

Nony: "And about the cambrian period...how do u all explain that so many differen species of life forms burst into existence in such a short period of time..It just contradicts natural selection"

Can you please explain how it "contradicts natural selection". I'd like to hear some details before I reply more fully.

By the way, have you ever heard of the Vendian period? Don't forget to mention that in your explanation of how the Cambrian explosion contradicts natural selection.

Looking forward to your explanation.

stephen said...

"And about the cambrian period...how do u all explain that so many differen species of life forms burst into existence in such a short period of time..It just contradicts natural selection"


How I explain how a series of different life forms came about is because they were created. I am not a believer in Natural Selection. But I am a believer in micro evolution. (for example how we get black people and white and all the people in between).

Strong evidence to support creation is the giraffe.

The Giraffe.
A giraffe has a heart 2 feet long. It uses this large heart to pump blood all the way to its brain, up its long neck and against gravity.That is a strong heart. When a giraffe drinks it lowers its neck towards the water and valves in its arteries slow the blood flow, hence stopping the giraffes brain exploding from exceeding blood pressure. Now how could a mechinism like this evolve. Could say, an animal that evolved into a giraffe go to drink the water and kill itself from blood pressure to the brain simply say to itself i need to evolve some valves in my arteries to stop that happening again? no It would be dead. Such a creative mechanism that the giraffe shows keeps pointing to a creator.

cheers

Melissa said...

stephen,

By applying the same logic your using to try and validate your belief in a "creator", such as using the unique cardiovascular system present in giraffes as supporting evidence for intelligent design, wouldn't you agree this could actually be interpreted as a glaring example of a designers flaw rather than a creator's intended useful mechanism?

This alleged creator makes a giraffe with a long neck to eat out of trees, but then nearly makes it almost physically impossible to bend over and take a drink of water?

Is your creator intelligent or not?

Why not make the giraffe with a shorter neck so they could eat vegetation off the ground. That would have been a more suitable design for enabling them to survive, without the need of a specialized system to compensate for the flaws found within their designer biological functions.

Your last post did not contain one bit of fact to support your opposition to the processes of natural selection.

What factual evidence do you have to support your faith in the creator hypothesis?

If anything, it is a fine example of evolution at work because natural selection provided the basis for developing a specialized organ due to a once present ecological niche.

Modifications to the giraffe's structure have evolved, particularly to the circulatory system. A giraffe's heart, which can weigh up to 10 kg (24 lb) and about 2 feet long, has to generate around double the normal blood pressure for an average large mammal in order to maintain blood flow to the brain against gravity. In the upper neck, a complex pressure-regulation system called the rete mirabile prevents excess blood flow to the brain when the giraffe lowers its head to drink. Conversely, the blood vessels in the lower legs are under great pressure (because of the weight of fluid pressing down on them). In other animals such pressure would force the blood out through the capillary walls; giraffes, however, have a very tight sheath of thick skin over their lower limbs which maintain high extravascular pressure in exactly the same way as a pilot's g-suit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe

So, how do you suppose this alleged "creator" went about making any living thing, much less the entirety of a universe or possibly a meta-universe?

Maybe it used magic cosmic play dough and a big wand perhaps? Or was it simply grand thoughts of invention that suddenly appear out of thin air? Is there also room in your rationalization for the hypothesis of there being many creators?

J. C. Samuelson said...

"Strong evidence to support creation is the giraffe."

The giraffe is a bit of a mystery. It is one animal for which there are no clear transitional fossils. There are a few candidates, but other than a few unproven hypotheses (adaptation and sexual selection being two), we do not know for certain how the giraffe evolved. Having said that, I think you overestimate its impact, and mischaracterize a mystery as evidence.

First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As it applies here, it simply means that what we don't know isn't evidence for alternative origins. History is replete with examples of things we didn't know, but later were able to explain due to new discoveries. Thus, we need to be careful that we don't "fill in the blanks" with blind assertions.

Second, mysteries are not evidence. That is, if you want to prove special creation, you have to do much more than simply point to gaps in our knowledge (i.e., mysteries). Science does not operate by mere assertions, so explaining these mysteries by saying "God did it" are woefully inadequate. Furthermore, they require much more explanation than you might think. More even than evolution. Not only does the creationist need to demonstrate the mechanism(s) of special creation, but also the methods of the creator, which necessarily calls for a detailed theory explaining that creator, the workings of miracles, and so on.

Third, the creationist has to overcome objections like those offered by Melissa. Is your creator intelligent or not? Like nearly everything else on the planet, the giraffe shows signs of less-than-ideal engineering. Explaining this by saying we live in a fallen world doesn't work by the way, because then you have to explain how alleged human sin applies to animals.

Finally, if the giraffe is the best creationists have, then the deck is still stacked against you. The mountain of evidence supporting evolution in thousands of other species great and small lends its support to the idea of giraffe evolution as well.

So, hanging your hat on creationism on the basis that not all things have been explained is not exactly the best strategy.

Dave8 said...

Stephen, its kind of late, but this sounds really amusing... You suggest you are a believer in micro evolution, but suggest macro evolution does not exist...

"A spermatozoon or spermatozoan (pl. spermatozoa), from the ancient Greek (seed) and (living being) and more commonly known as a sperm cell, is the haploid cell that is the male gamete. It joins an ovum to form a zygote. A zygote is a single cell, with a complete set of chromosomes, that normally develops into an embryo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatozoon

A zygote is a "single cell". Question... the slightest altering of its code, can have drastic changes on the macro end-state being... the adult homo sapien.

Stephen, please explain why it is incomprehensible to understand that small changes, make up larger changes... do you believe we live in a disconnected universe, where the micro and macro are somehow totally residing, with a discrete "demarcation" point...

eel_shepherd said...

stephen wrote, concerning the giraffe:
"...Could say, an animal that evolved into a giraffe go to drink the water and kill itself from blood pressure to the brain simply say to itself i need to evolve some valves in my arteries to stop that happening again? no It would be dead..."

And good riddance to it, too. It leaves all that much more of the tastiest treetop foliage for the hardier giraffe (and its progeny!) two trees over. The one whose head doesn't blow up, but who just gets a bit woozy and has the sense not to try & remedy its vertigo with another drink of water right after.

Melissa gave the specifics on how giraffe blood-delivery systems work in any given (non-dead) giraffe. I'm thinking that if a god designed the giraffe blood delivery system, it didn't know much about hydraulics. Most human engineers would probably have solved the "head" pressure problem by installing an auxilliary pump part way along to the brain, but maybe god skipped that class.

Anyhow, that's not really how evolution works. Rather than suddenly gambling on having some great long neck, in a make-or-break bid to get at the high leaves without its head blowing up every time it wants to wet its whistle, there were no doubt some contenders for longest-necked-near-giraffes, and the winners got to eat well and not-die, and the runners-up got to starve and not procreate their mediocre-neck genes along to the next generation.

There oughta be a sort of Evolution Catechism, just so students don't lose track of the small handful of self-evident elements that make up the elegant workings of natural selection. You wouldn't think there are enough moving parts in it for people to get it wrong, but evidently there are.

dano said...

Steven,
Better yet you have the good fortune of witnessing how natural selection is on the precipice of eliminating humans from the gene pool, who have poorly defined processes of critical thought. (defective thinkers)

Two very large segments of the human race are busy arming themselves with weapons of mass destruction, and have little or no defense against the possibility of using them against each other, thus eliminating a huge numbers of their own kind.

There is the group of around 2 billion people, who are captive to a religious meme or cult, called Islam, and another group of similar characteristics called Christians.

Now for all practical reasons any real differences between these two groups are only slight cultural variances.

The reason these two groups of otherwise normal happy, functioning people are about to eliminate themselves from the human gene pool is because they both are being controlled by a different mythological belief systems, the one thinks there is a bearded old man up in the sky called Allah who controls their lives, and the other believes their lives are being controlled by a similar entity called God.

When the two different cultures were forming, or creating, these two mythologies they incorporated into them a very strict inclusive, exclusive clauses that favored their respective cultures, and tell the members of the one cult to hate and kill the members of the other cult.

There is a third group of humans though, who have overcome the proclivity for fantasy, magical, thinking, who go by many names but have in common, that they are not controlled by imaginary beings up in the sky, but by realistic logical thought.

We of little faith (Ex-Christians, and ex-Muslims) are desperately working as hard as we can to make the two large cults realize that what each is ready to die for, and in the process kill many innocents, is just a silly cultural belief that one God is better than the other God.

If these two cults do decide to try to get to heaven by killing each other in enough numbers the resulting fallout my very well open up the possibility of any survivors rethinking the idea that there is an invisible being up in the sky telling them to kill their neighbors.

Thus, natural selection at work, and, Steven, YOU WERE THERE!
Dan

dano said...

Stephen,steven, steve?

freeman said...

Here is an important point for you Steven.

Adaptation leads to evolutionary change. This can happen fairly quickly with single cell organisms via asexual and sexual reproduction. It how ever is NOT efficient in multicellular organisms except through sexual reproduction. If there were no need for humans to evolve, then we should all be able to reproduce asexually and no need for seperate male and female species!

What is purpose of mixing DNA from seperate male and female species except to adapt to a changing environment and produce evolutionary changes!

Razorwire said...

Not gunning at anyone in particular, just addressing a few issues that rose to the forefront. I'm hoping that the authors of the original statements will recogize their words and the context...

-------

"...please explain why it is incomprehensible to understand that small changes, make up larger changes..."

According to the "scientific method", shouldn't conclusions be drawn from the testable, repeatable, and OBSERVABLE?

Small change ("microevolution - moths-to-moths, finches-to-finches, bacteria-to-bacteria adaptation) has been observed, in a MUCH shorter time than millions of years BTW (so, WHERE THE F*** IS ALL THE TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL EVIDENCE?!!). However, the end results always remaining within the classificaion of their Biblical "kind".

Coupling microevolution with a little conjecture and a whole lot of speculation into questionable, borderline meritless "evidence", we are expected to believe that larger changes ("macroevolution" - molecules-to-man") have occurred, despite having NEVER been observed (let alone tested or repeated).

In summary... because some of us think a little more critically than that.


"...do you believe we live in a disconnected universe, where the micro and macro are somehow totally residing, with a discrete 'demarcation' point..."

Evolutionists/naturalists would like the "demarcation point" to be as blurred as possible, wouldn't they? I accuse you of the very tactics as stated above. Case and point.


* Why IS it that most (by an OUTLANDISH margin) visual "evidence" comes in the form of sketches, rather than photographs? I can only assume is that it's easier to convince unanalytical minds with fabricated, complete skeletons than with a photo of a few, actual bones. Illusion after illusion after illusion....

--------

"Surely with God miraculously healing so many people, there should be little need for doctors or hospitals anymore."

Said physicians may be answered prayers in and of themselves, many times over.

---------

"I dare any church, anywhere, at any time, to try and pray a hospital empty. Even if it were only to last ONE DAY, I'd sit up and take notice."

Well, well, well. Look who's making demands of God.


"Jesus said his disciples would do greater things than even he did..."

Limiting the word "things" to mean healing, with no other possibilities? Can you say "fallacy of the excluded middle"?

"...Yet the hospitals remain brimming with business."

Whoops! I forgot... no one is supposed to die.

------

"Nothing fails like prayer."

Except an atheist's fragile intellect.

Bangalore Torpedo said...

Razorwire: "According to the "scientific method", shouldn't conclusions be drawn from the testable, repeatable, and OBSERVABLE?"

Not always. You have a mom and dad, prove it. I mean, you don't recall the second you were born right. Explain why a scientist has to pull out transitional fossil records, when you can't even vouch for your own birth, by first hand experience.

If you want to discuss how you will objectively prove you were born from a female human, and why you couldn't have possible been born by a surrogate baboon mother, I'd like to hear your "hypothesis", since you neither observed, tested, and obviously will never be able to repeat your birth process, thanks.

Razorwire: "Small change ("microevolution - moths-to-moths, finches-to-finches, bacteria-to-bacteria adaptation) has been observed, in a MUCH shorter time than millions of years BTW (so, WHERE THE F*** IS ALL THE TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL EVIDENCE?!!)."

It's in the zoo, next to your baby crib, unless you have a better hypothesis.

trckmn58 said...

look pple God does answer prayer but not the way you would like it. cuz God wantz to know ur heart and see if ur will out of prayer is 4 urself or Him so if itz not 4 God forget it bcuz wat have u learned? u have 2 submit to God's will and say yes Lord i will follow u. problem is no one wants to give up their dignity to serve someone they cant see but trust me on this if u do submit 2 God, He will give u a love for pple that doesn come from u and all it does is jsut bless pple and just a smile on their face and i love doing it everyday so christians who sit in church all day shutup and get out of tht buildin and make a stand for God instead of singin bout it. u can do tht all ur life but it won do nothin. God moves thru U and me and He sent his son down 2 die 4 all of us bcuz He LOVED U WIT ALL OF HIS HEART. pple God made us out of his own image but cuz of sin tht separated us from him but now we all have 2 choose our lifestyle and whether God is a part of it or not. so overall God doesn just accept any prayer He accepts one thts true, and one that He knows is for doing His will. Yes God loves u but He wants 2 realize how lil control u have. everyone in this world matters 2 me but i just wanted 2 let u kno if u want prayer 2 work u gotta seek God first and He will take care of the rest. God bless and I hope u understand wher im comin from

trckmn58 said...

o ya and another thing if u don believe in God how bout look and see how stable our environment is and im not talkin bout the issues but im talkin bout how God made it wher we culd live and another thing look at how well all the systems of our body work together and ull see tht u r a work of art from God who loved wen no1 else did but u werent looking for Him there is so much good in pple but one they don see it in themselves and two God is ther 2 bring it out yet they don believe. the reason a lot of pple don believe is cuz the Church of Christ failed u day in and day out by judgin and not lovin which is so dum i cant believe itz happenin
one last point is dont look at everythin in the natural sense cuz if do ull nvr see God makin sense to u. ive seen God change pple's lives and it has amazed me and i will do all i can do bring bak the love that this country is missin and the blessings tht God has stopped doin since this country has abandoned Him. i want pple to live a good life thru Christ and not have 2 live in bondage 4 the rest of ur life cuz God takes all ur pain and He comforts wen u r sad and calms wen u r mad yet He also rejoices wen u have real genuine joy and i hope pple don believe in the religious God but believe in the one God who loves u more than any1 and wants to help u. good bye now if u have anythin 2 say u can contact me at trckmn58@yahoo.com peace out

Astreja said...

Aaaugh! The Bad Spelling, it burns!

trckmn58: "...God wantz to know ur heart..."

Ah, so your god is not all-knowing after all! Didn't think so.

...if u do submit 2 God, He will give u a love for pple that doesn come from u...

Prove that this love doesn't come from me. (And, while you're at it, prove that your god exists outside your own imagination.)

...He LOVED U WIT ALL OF HIS HEART...

Except for the billions of people who are headed for Hell, that is. And all the ones who died in the flood. And the Amakalite babies, too.

God doesn just accept any prayer He accepts one thts true, and one that He knows is for doing His will.

So none of our own prayers get answered at all, just the things that your god wants? Well, if that's the case, you can kiss the Free Will Defense to the Problem of Evil goodbye.

o ya and another thing if u don believe in God how bout look and see how stable our environment is...

(falls on the floor laughing her Goddessly ass off) Ah. This is obviously some strange new definition of "stable" that I wasn't previously aware of. Where I live, we are now frequently getting tornado warnings on the local weather broadcasts. The winter low average temperature is higher than I've ever seen it. And I shudder to think about what's going to happen in coastal areas of the southern U.S. this summer. (If you live there, please move to high ground well inland and further north if you can afford to do so.)

...there is so much good in pple...

Okay, we do agree on that much. By all means, continue to strive to be a good person and make your community a better place.

But please don't come here and preach at us. We've read the Bible. We know all about your religion. We've chosen a different path than you; please accept that.

boomSLANG said...

Nope, I'm not bitin'.....there's no f%cking way that those are legit' posts. It's a ex-xian regular just playin' games. If I'm wrong?....please tell me that "58" is NOT their birth year! Aaaarg!

trckmn58 said...

ugh astreja u missin the point i ment 2 say that He wants u 2 kno his heart and another thing is i don believe in religion like a lot of pple do cuz i kno God did not create it and the thing bout love. i cared for pple but not for everyone and ever since God came into my life ive never rly been the same He doesn jsut change ur thinkin but He changes ur heart and when He does that He comes in and takes control and pours out love that is so unimaginable itz so hard 2 explain. ya ther are things bout God that i cant explain and i will leave it like that cuz a lot of pple listen to pple of theology and go by wat they say but the truth is we will never get the full picture of God cuz we r so limited and the thing iwanted 2 say bout prayer is that wen u pray 2 God it shouldn be for just yourself and pray bcuz u believe in God and know that u follow His will and tht he will answere your needs and if u don believe in God explain 2 me how we got the universe began and how did it get here? and the thing u said bout Hell God did love us wit all His heart but He cant force us 2 love Him and He gave us a choice Heaven or Hell? all this Humanism that says how great Humans are and how superior we r then how come we can be so foolish and confused? astreja I can prove God 2 u but wat difference will it make cuz proof alone that God exists isn goin 2 change u the fact that when u realize u r nothing witout God and seek his face thts wen it starts to change and i would rather show you then tell u cuz tellin is only half the story i g2g for now but feel free to post astreja im interested in wat u have 2 say

.:webmaster:. said...

trckmn58,

I hope you are 12 years old, or thereabouts. If not, I'm embarrassed for you.

I suggest you learn how to properly express yourself in English before posting again.

If you are a spoofer, as Boom suggests, please knock it off.

trckmn58 said...

people excuse me for my english and with some thought i have realized somethings

we can discuss the matter of if God is real or not but no matter how hard i try i will not be able to change your opinions because it is not in my power

and another thing what is the spending your whole life disproving what other believe to be true instead of just loving for them for who they are

i wish everyone could go to heaven but unfortunately people choose their own ways and sadly end up going to Hell.

i wish that a lot of things would change in this country politics, family, government, crime, corruption and on and on but yet i feel that rather than voicing my opinion about God and wasting my time arguing i would rather live for God and do His will through my life

it is nice to see what everyone has to say and i respect people’s opinions on not believing in God

yet if you can just look around and see past the unstability and see past all the bad things and see things for what they really are it is a lot easier to appreciate life. you have heard me say enough times but i dont think you grasp how much God loves you because even it is beyond words and by me dummin it down doesn help

so say what you want to say but i will still believe God is real because look at all the strange occurences look at how well things worked together and i see what God has done through people

im tired of religion itself it makes me sick of how divided and broken and all the hatred and bitterness and i wonder when it will come to an end. For the last time God didn intend or create religion but just to turn away from our wicked ways and accept His son who died for all of us. im sorry if that is too much for you but hey it happened and no one can disprove that because no one has found Jesus’s bones

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58 said "...you have heard me say enough times but i dont think you grasp how much God loves you..."

It seems you are terribly confused. We don't believe your god exists. Did you somehow fail to pick up on that? It does not appear that you get it, for why else would be still be trying to assure us that your make-believe deity has feelings of any sort? Let me ask you this. Do you know that Zeus will protect you? Does that statement make much sense to you? Probably not, and for the same reason that your statements make absolutely no sense to us. If there's no reason to believe that some entity even exists, is there much point talking about what other attributes it has?

boomSLANG said...

Teenager for Christ said: ...no matter how hard i try i will not be able to change your opinions because it is not in my power

but MOSTLY because:

1) YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE for any "God", let alone "Jesus".

2) you couldn't form a meaningful grammatically correct paragraph to save your life.

3) you are attempting to parrot the same ol' tired and useless arguments that we've heard a gazillion times before.

4) reeding ur teanaged "code" makes me want 2 vomit.

5) because you are a shining example of what religion does to an already not-so-bright person.

That's the short list, BTW. Furthermore, I ask you: Is it merely your "opinion" that Allah doesn't exist? How about Thor? How about Poseiden? How about Toth? I'll bet you'll say that you "know" they don't exist, right? Well, news flash: With every bit as much confidence as you KNOW that those gods don't exist, I know that your Jebus doesn't exist. Live with it.

Teenager for Christ: im tired of religion itself it makes me sick of how divided and broken and all the hatred and bitterness and i wonder when it will come to an end.

As long as there are people like you--people who can't figure out that they're part of the problem?....sadly, it'll never end.

Teenager for Christ: For the last time God didn intend or create reli......[blah, blah, blah]

For the last time--reread points 1-5, above...paying careful attention to "1" and "3". Thanks.

Teenager for Christ: im sorry if that is too much for you but hey it happened and no one can disprove that because no one has found Jesus’s bones

Right, for the same reason no one has found Santa Claus' bones.

stronger now said...

I would just like to say that I have actual evidence that Santa Clause is real. My daughter sent him her list of toys that she wanted for christmas. Well, he replied. The address was from the north pole and everything. Even signed by him. As you can imagine I was shocked when I found his letter in the mail.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay, looking back now it seems to me that trckmn58 must be a spoofer. (Either that or the dumbing down of this country is far more pervasive than I had ever imagined.) So... ha ha ha. Got me. Now run along.

trckmn58 said...

haha you guys make me laugh sometimes i wonder why it is so important to you guys to prove someone wrong good luck trying to find proof for everything

trckmn58 said...

so boomslang if Jesus doesn exist where do you come into the mix?

trckmn58 said...

boomslang i dont wanna target you but you don even know me wen you call me not-so-bright person if u gonna target somebody get the full story

Anonymous said...

trckmn58, please go home and study and bring a plausible argument.

In my opinion, proving that there is no God or gods is more than just speculating on one topic such as prayer. However the comments on Christians are quite true.

What is so confusing to me is why christians feel like their salvation is like fire insurance. It is like people accept Jesus only for the fact so that they don't receive as they say "eternal punishment". What change is that going to make in their lives if they don't really want to change.

Nevertheless, I feel it is time to bring a new topic to the table. A large percentage of people believe in God but a very small percent actually live the walk. Now there is something that is wrong with that picture. I read a book recently talking about how the majority of Americans buy into the whole idea of good people go to heaven. The author stated that actually forgiven people go to heaven. Any responses to that notion.

trckmn58 said...

o ya one mo thing boomslang if i get proof for the Bible ull just say it ain true so obviously there is nothin tht will convince u. look at how much chaos our country is in itz bout time God took His hand off of us so we culd see how messed up we are. "Do not boast about strengths but rather the weaknesses that we are ashamed to confront". When you are weak God is strong cuz He can then guide ur life into the direction he desires. itz too bad scientists cant explain how a lightning bolt from miles misses two lightning rods and kills an innocent life cuz he had no metal or anythin explain tht non believas

trckmn58 said...

anonymous be a lil smarta and read the dang title jeez u got no room in this discussion if u tlkin bout tht.

.:webmaster:. said...

trckmn58,

Please cease posting here. Your posts are annoying.

Thanks.

eddie said...

webmaster is there any way to remove him?

Anonymous said...

Trckmn58, I do not think you have realized how much you just messed up the flow of the discussion. You have two guys talking about components of evolution and all of the sudden you come into the picture and talk about God and everything but it was difficult to understand what you were trying to say. Please understand that you cannot just come into a blogger and say random and general things. Yeah, I know this a free country and all that jazz, but still man have some respect.

Mr. Schlong said...

trckmn58, "itz too bad scientists cant explain how a lightning bolt from miles misses two lightning rods and kills an innocent life cuz he had no metal or anythin explain tht non believas"

Nature...

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

trckmn58: "feel free to post astreja im interested in wat u have 2 say..."

(falls off Her chair laughing even harder, then drags Herself off the floor and slugs down a mug of chocolate liqueur, brandy and milk)

Ahh, I really do enjoy being a supporting member of Ex-C. Thanks again for creating this site, Webmaster Dave.

Aaaanyway.

No, trckmn, I don't believe you when you say that you're interested in what lil' old Me has to say. You're an immature and incredibly naïve headhunter for a belief system that has done far more harm than good on this planet.

And all you've done is bleat a few things about your subjective experience of the god that you happen to believe in.

I agree with my colleagues: You have added nothing of substance to our discussions. Go away. Now. Or, by Oðinn, I shall roast your pathetic little apologetics on a spit.

trckmn58 said...

all u exchristians prly don believe in God cuz all u did was sit in church and do nothin 4 His name

Anonymous said...

all u christians prly just believe in god cuz all u do is let othr ppl do ur thinkin for u -Wes.

trckmn58 said...

i meen u don believe anymo cuz u don see God work in relationships or in people's lives and all u did is go 2 church and u didn get anythin out of that and then u just kinda quit. but wen have u guys ever experienced the presence of God.

Astreja said...

Little boy, read the Ex-timonies. Many tears have been shed by members of this forum as we pleaded for help, guidance, and companionship from your imaginary friend.

If there is someone on the other end of the Godphone, it is choosing to ignore us. It's rather hard to develop a relationship with something that doesn't even want to talk to us.

Our disbelief has nothing to do with churches.

And everything to do with asking and not receiving.

If you can't get it through your head that many of us did try with all our hearts, then I predict that you won't see your own disbelief until you, too, are weeping in your bed at three in the morning.

When that day comes, we'll be there for you. Until then, go away.

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58, I see two possibilities: Either you sound like an idiot on purpose, or you sound like an idiot unintentionally. If it's the former, then please go away; nobody is amused. If it's the latter, please go away; it's just plain sad.

trckmn58 said...

ok then lemme ask u this if God did comfort u wen u were uncomfortable wuld u follow His will or go bak to the same you were. And God wants 2 see how much u believe in Him yes u have pain and sorrow but i think He wants u to see past that and wants to use ur gifts passions and other things special about u to let u see that u did somethin tht mattered. i don exactly like the fact that u guys felt such pain cuz i rather wuld see u happy. my last question is wen have u ever been in the presence of God?

trckmn58 said...

look if u ever are going to get a good understandin of God then u cant think all logic cuz u will be all confused so dont box God in our 3 dimensions. i cant tell u why it seems that God wasn there 4u just cuz the simple fact that im not God but i will say that there must have been some deeper purpose about each of ur situation. I feel that if God is going to make an impact on u then u pretty much have 2 give every single piece of ur life 2 Him and dont regret or hold anythin bak. many of u don kno my life as i don kno urs but u guys make the decision obviously not me. if u choose 2 be bitter at God so be it thts somethin thts between u and God but i wish ther was just some way i culd help and u guys will prlly say go away but who else will comfort u at nite wen u feel like no1 cares 4 u or u wonder wat am i doing here? ill just leave u guys 2 answer these questions 4 urself

boomSLANG said...

my last question is wen have u ever been in the presence of God?

my 2nd-to-the-last questin is wen have u ever been in the presents of a schol teecher? my last questin aint a questin, but a statemint---BEAT IT!!!

trckmn58 said...

who hasn boomslang and if u wuld just give God a chance u would see how much of nothing we humans are and how loving yet big God is. if u dont want to change then im sorry u chose where you will go. And why havent you answered my question? Are you limiting God to our dimension? If you're done listening to me then got this website and see if it will suit you better. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html#Creator

Astreja said...

Read the following over and over until you understand it, trckman58:

This is EX-CHRISTIAN.NET. Most of the people here left Christianity because your god didn't answer when they knocked at the door.

We are here to recover from the pain that your religion has caused us, and to express our anger at self-righteous, ignorant little bastards like you who refuse to leave us the fuck alone.

It is my profound hope that one day you grow up enough to challenge your beliefs, and that you lose all faith in Christianity. Because only then will you understand why we are here on this site and why we are so hostile to your message.

And only then will you be capable of seeing the true beauty of the real world.

.:webmaster:. said...

trk-idiot:

Please stop posting here.

Thanks.

boomSLANG said...

Vapid, boisterous, stooge said: who hasn boomslang(?)

Who hasn't?....is that what you meant? Well, apparently, "u" haven't. Honestly, how on earth do you expect to be taken seriously, with the grammatical skills of a 2nd grader? Hell, for all we know, you ARE a second grader--one who's havin' fun on their mommy's PC.

Vapid, boisterous, stooge continues: and if u wuld just give God a chance u would see how much of nothing we humans are and how loving yet big God is.

No, actually, I see how much of a "Nothing" this alleged "God" is. I listen?..I hear "Nothing"; I look?...I see "Nothing". "God" = "Nothing"...'only a construct in your mind.

Vapid, boisterous, stooge threatened: if u dont want to change then im sorry u chose where you will go.

No one's "going" anywhere, little boy. When you and I are pronounced "dead", our brains no longer function, our thoughts cease, and we simply die. It's as simple as that. But the good news is that you'll be cured of that nasty little mind-virus of yours. RIP.

Vapid, boisterous, stooge asked: And why havent you answered my question? Are you limiting God to our dimension?

Are you "limiting" Sponge-Bob to "our dimension"?? I hope not, because he and Patrick want you to move in to their pineapple under the sea.

Now run along. Shoo!

trckmn58 said...

Yeah astreja, I saw that it is ExChristian.net. But you still haven't answered my questions. It is like there is something that you don't want to confront. Every single person in this world has gifts but where did they come from and why did we receive them? What exactly were you looking for if you "knocked at the door" if the Bible says that no one can see the Father and live. How much of your life would have given to God? A part? Most? Little? Did you guys look at the site that I was trying to refer you to? How can you say God's not real when you have not been in His presence?

trckmn58 said...

Please guys obviously you're not hearing my heart. Don't let the Devil steal your soul away. Don't allow your heart to be troubled or hard like a rock. I see what you guys are saying but it seems you refuse to look at the way I'm saying. Because if you don't value God then you do not value His creation. Which is everyone in this earth. The babies that die due to abortions by saying God is no value you're saying those little babies dying aren't of value as well.
Think about it for a second.

MID(Man in Distress) said...

Why are you talking proper English now trckmn58? What was with all those ridiculous comments you made before? Look, I do NOT believe in God because my mom died and there was no one to comfort me and you say that He loves everyone. Well some love your god showed. This is how I have been feeling for quite a long time.

Now, looking at your recent comments has got me thinking. I detest feeling all this bitterness and sadness that is stored up in the very depths of my core. I would like to do away with all this mess but nothing works. Drugs just help me run away from the way I feel. Alcohol makes me a total wreck. I am a person filled with misery and I want it to be taken away.

If your so-called God really loves me, then please tell him that I need help and I'll give him a week to prove himself to me.

trckmn58 said...

Dude, MID why are you testing my God? Sorry to break the info to you but my God is not limited to your time block of 1 week. If you're expecting it to happen so sudden, sorry it doesn't work that way. If you understand the whole idea that wen God made the finite universe that He came before time and space ever began and is therefore not bound to the confines of our dimension. Therefore, your breakthrough can happen at any given moment whether it is weeks, months or years. If you rly rly want to test God then how bout laying your life down for Him and putting down your knee in submission and see what happens. If you do that then I guarantee you will have real, genuine joy.



"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him." John 14:21

"He who has found his own life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39

"These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."
John 15: 11

"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8

Satan said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge concerning you'; and 'on their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Matthew 4:6-7

"You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah. Deuteronomy 6:16

Astreja said...

trckmn58: "Yeah astreja, I saw that it is ExChristian.net. But you still haven't answered my questions."

Your questions, trckmn? Or the questions of your preacher friend that you're cutting and pasting to save your sorry little ass? You aren't fooling me for a moment: It's been quite obvious for some time that you have someone reading our posts over your shoulder and typing out more lucid (but still completely bullshit) responses. If he wants to talk to us he would do well to set up his own account rather than piggybacking on yours.

Every single person in this world has gifts...

They are not gifts. They are natural abilities. They came from a natural source, not a supernatural one. They are ours. Period.

"How can you say God's not real when you have not been in His presence?"

(falls on floor laughing yet again) Uh... I'll take "Beings for which there is no credible evidence" for $200, Alex.

Your god does not exist, trckmn. At least, not in the Christian sense of the word. I stake all that I am and all that I shall ever be on the theory that the god of the Bible never existed, never will exist, and should not under any circumstances be brought into existence.

There may indeed be gods. But yours is not among them. If your god did exist as described in the Bible, I would have destroyed it long ago as it poses a deadly threat to humanity.

Oh, what the heck. *poof* The big scary god-thing is gone, trckmn. You can stop being scared of hell any time you're ready.

dano said...

trckmn58
Normally we would dismiss everything you say about God and Jesus, because you use the very literature that is the source of your assertions, as the proof of those assertions, and that is called circular reasoning, and not valid or acceptable.

But as that has more than likely been pointed out to you many times before this, and you just keep on doing it, we will assume that you have a very low I. Q, and are not capable of comprehending the proposition that you cannot prove what you are saying, by quoting the author.

It's probably too late for you to do much about you "Autism" now, because it is evident from your writing that you are in your teens, but, who knows.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and with enough effort you just may be able to claw your way out of your religious cult and free your mind and soul from the meme called Christianity.

You will find others here on Ex-Christian who have been damaged to the extent that you have, and made their way out, so maybe you will also.

Here's hoping, because the world today can use all of the clear thinkers it can get.
Dan

trckmn58 said...

Who made religion? Mankind. So therefore because of that why do you think God is bound to the religion of Christianity? You act as if He is in some package and can't be separated from it. Obviously, you guys don't see beyond and have settled in your minds for it. There's something more than just the Bible itself. There's something more than just going to church. There's something more than just praising God or praying. Praying is a two-way communication not one. So everytime we cast our needs our wants and then He gives it to us and we say "I believe now". I mean come on if you really want something from God then why don't you just obey Him? Or is that too much to ask? You guys feel like I've been brainwashed or something or like I am a zombie. Can you at least stretch yourselves and be open-minded?

stronger now said...

Hey trckmn58, I did obey him, asked for his help, and got nothing. So why should I think he exists?

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58, in your latest post it seems you have set aside the puerile gibberish-style of writing that you've been inundating us with. Good. Maybe you really do want to have a conversation after all. Let's see...

Who made religion? Mankind! Yes, we agree 100%. That's a good place to start. Now you ask, in effect, whether we can separate god from religion. The obvious answer to this is "yes" for a number of reasons. First, there are many Deists here who reject Christianity yet accept the notion of a creator. There you go. Second, there are folks like me who both reject Christianity and also find the notion of a creator to be completely unfounded. Those are two different issues in my mind. Christianity, being one of myriad religions, clearly does not "own" the concept of god. Even if all religions that ever existed were wrong in their assertions, it would not mean that a "god" of some sort did not exist. I think we can agree on that.

But, here is the question, trckmn58. If you claim that there is a god, on what do you base that? What is your evidence? What is your reasoning? That's all that matters in this discussion. I've been willing to entertain any and all such claims, and to listen to and analyze all such arguments for my entire life. However, thus far I have not encountered one single argument that stands up to scrutiny--i.e. that does not commit one or more logical fallacies or distort the facts. Hence, I find none of them to be credible, and therefore find no more reason to believe in invisible conscious entities than I do in ESP or psychokinesis or alien abductions or Nessy or Sasquatch or leprechauns or... you get the picture.

The ball is in your court. What evidence have you got to offer? Can you be the first to offer some cogent reasoning in support of a supernatural realm, or for an invisible conscious being of some sort?

trckmn58 said...

So stronger now, how long have you waited for your answer.

trckmn58 said...

Now Jim, if God didnt exist then everything would be explainable. There wouldn't be anyone going around trying to understand the unexplainable. In fact, God bends the rules of physics to do His will. Also there had to be something or someone as you say to have made everything before even time and space began. A lot of people believe in evolution. But where did that single organism that started it all come from? Also us humans are alike to all creatures of this world. We have what they call Hox genes which are responsible for the body plans of each and every organism. Every single creature has the same body plans as us. Also, how can science explain the fact of how the Earth was created in such a way to support life while other planets weren't? I'll leave it to just this and let the rest of you speculate.

trckmn58 said...

Another thing stronger now as I have said before is that God operates on His time schedule not ours. Some of my needs have taking years and believe me years to be met but now I see why it had to take so long. In our society, people want things and they want it that instant but with God it doesn't work like that. Also you have to look at like this, are you living the life like of Christ?

boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...

trckmn: Praying is a two-way communication not one.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. Then I suppose we can all just start ignoring your posts...and you'll still classify that as "two-way communication", right?

Trckmn: I mean come on if you really want something from God then why don't you just obey Him? Or is that too much to ask?

Trckmn, while your writing skills seemed to have magically improved, I'm sad to say, I still think you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

Let's see. Okay, assuming you're a male---when you need to void your bladder in a public place, I wonder, do you go approach all the "males" in bathroom that says "MEN", and confront them about their gender? Seriously, I wonder if you might not, because the "door" on this website clearly says "EX-christian", yet, you keep referencing the Christian biblegod, "Christ", as if we still hold belief in said biblegod. Just to be clear, we do not, so statements like, "...if you really want something from God[Jesus] then why don't you just obey Him? Or is that too much to ask?", are very silly.

See for yourself: Trckmn, if you really want something from Santa, then why don't you just obey him, and be a good little boy? Or is that too much to ask?

See? It's silly, isn't it?

Right, because "Santa" doesn't exist, especially as described by his most common physics-defying characteristics...i.e..flying sleigh, flying reindeer, etc., etc. This issue isn't really one of did there ever really exist a delusional fat man who liked to parade around in a red bathrobe and black shiny boots, and who went by the name "St Nicholas". There very well might have been such a person, maybe even more than one.

The point is, if an adult were going around INSISTING that Santa Claus existed, sure, other adults would likely tell that person that he/she is a delusional psycho, but more importantly, the evidence that they would likely require in order to be CONVINCED, would be based on those attributes that DEFY REASON; that are NON-sensical; and that CONTRADICT REALITY....::cough::

I think that analogy is pretty clear, although, I'm NOT taking any chances on being misunderstood.

So---WHERE is your objective evidence that the Christian biblegod, aka "Jesus", exists in reality as the omniscient, omnipotent, ALL-loving, creator-god you say he he is?

Waiting.

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58 said "Now Jim, if God didnt exist then everything would be explainable. There wouldn't be anyone going around trying to understand the unexplainable."

Hu? Where did you come up with that? I don't think there is a god, yet there are obviously we do not yet have explanations for everything. So, it seems to me that reality contradics you.

trckmn58: "In fact, God bends the rules of physics to do His will."

And you make that assertion based on what?

trckmn58: "Also there had to be something or someone as you say to have made everything before even time and space began."

Oh? Why is that?

trckmn58: "A lot of people believe in evolution. But where did that single organism that started it all come from?"

First, believing "in" something has a different connotation than believing "that" something is a likely explanation. The former is usually linked to some kind of "faith" (which is comically out of place in science), while the latter is a statement about the strength of evidence (which is what science is all about). Evolution fits the available data spectacularly well, and it makes thousands of detailed predictions (e.g. concerning junk DNA and why humans have only 23 chromosome pairs instead of 24). As for the origin of the first living cell, that is a tremendously interesting question, but it does not fall under the rubric of evolution. Evolution is only concerned with the transformation of life, not the origin of life. For example, even if you were to posit that the first living cell came about by divine intervention, evolution would still make perfect sense in that it explains how life subsequently changed.

trckmn58: "Also us [we!] humans are alike to all creatures of this world. We have what they call Hox genes which are responsible for the body plans of each and every organism. Every single creature has the same body plans as us."

Yes! Good for you that you know what a Hox gene is. It's important to understand that some genes exert high-level control of development. That's a crucial aspect of evolution. Without such high-level controls, it would be much harder to explain large-scale morphological changes over relatively brief periods (on the order of hundreds of thousands of years). The physiological differences between humans and chimps, for example, are likely due (largely) to a small number of genes that regulate development (e.g. shape of the skull, presence of fur, length of limbs, etc.). Now, how are Hox genes helpful to your side of the argument?

What you said about all life on Earth sharing so much at the genetic level is one of the biggest clues to our common origin. If a "designer" had made each creature independently, why would she have inserted so much junk DNA, and pseudo-genes that were useful in prior species but not the current one (e.g. olfactory receptors in marine mammals)? Why would the same proteins show up time and again, with only slight variations? Why would there be homologies between vastly different structures (e.g. wings, hands, flippers, fins) in different species? Why would creatures have so many vestigial structures (e.g. goose flesh in humans, fetal limbs in whales, and fetal teeth in some birds)? Why would some structures so poorly match their present uses (e.g. the human back and knees, human sweat glands)?

trckmn58: "Also, how can science explain the fact of how the Earth was created in such a way to support life while other planets weren't?"

You phrase that question incorrectly, as you have no idea whether the Earth was "created" with any prior intent. If you ask, why is it that the Earth can support life, I answer that we would not be here if it did not. Life evolved here (and possibly elsewhere) to fit the environment, not the other way around. Analogously, jungles exist where there is ample rain; the rain was not put there so as to create the jungle (so far as we know).

trckmn58: "I'll leave it to just this and let the rest of you speculate."

Do you think these are somehow tricky questions or deep insights? They are not. Do you plan on supplying any evidence for this invisible deity you believe in? So far I haven't seen anything approaching evidence or even a fully-articulated argument from you. Even if you managed to ask really deep question that have no hint of an answer yet (which you have not), it still would not mean that YOU possess the answers. Do you see that? Unless you have some evidence that YOUR proposed solution is the correct one, it is YOU who is merely speculating.

boomSLANG said...

trckmn58: A lot of people believe in evolution. But where did that single organism that started it all come from?

A lot of people believe in creation. But where did that "creator" that started it all come from?

Trckmn, maybe you and Neo-fundy can put your heads together and address/resolve the blatant circular reasoning you have in your "creator" hypothesis.

trckmn58 said...

Ok then, back to the prayer topic. I don't think I made myself clear about all I wanted to say. You guys say that God is not real because you prayed or cried out to Him and followed His will. Yes it's true that God doesn't answer all our prayers but sometimes He does answer it but we just don't see it. For example, a good friend of mine was engaged to a girl at the age of 15. Everything seemed to be going but then she wanted to go separate ways. My friend wanted to get back with her yet it just didn't work out. He thought he wouldn't ever find love again. Yet a year later, he met the love of his life and they married after high school. They have been married 17 years now and he is glad that things worked out the way they did. At first, he didn't see how God would answer his prayers and yet here he is now happy and content. So prayer does work but not the way we exactly want it. When we don't get our way there's got to be someone to blame right?

Now addressing the issue of people crying out to God and not getting anything. Living for God is a day to day basis and when you were a Christian if you couldn't say why believe in God and how to lead people to Christ then there is a problem. Also, when you say you gave your whole life to Christ did you really? Or were you still holding back? Are you looking just past ourselves or are we still worried about our needs being met before helping someone else? Honestly, there isn't anything really bad about going to church except when it becomes a mindset and then we become numb to all the things preached in a sermon. Where did people get this idea that we are doing injustice if the fact that Christianity is the only true religion on this earth? Historians have proved the Bible to be the most accurate document in all of history and the amazing thing is that it still relates to today's society. It says in the Bible that men will only go to places where they want to hear what they want to hear. And it is so true today in our world. People just plug into something that suits them and go with it. One last point is that even though a lot of people see Christianity as a religion I see it as something bigger than that. The challenging part about following Jesus Christ is that there is no "once saved always saved" and the fact that on a daily basis you have to choose who you are going to follow. Jesus Christ or your own path? Even though our own path sounds a lot better, I would rather take Jesus Christ knowing that if I do, my reward waits for me in heaven.

trckmn58 said...

o yeah this is one is for Jim I have found out that recently that a scientist revealed that God exists through quantum physics. And i base what i say on the Bible because that is really a source that is actually reliable. People say King David was a myth yet about 10 years ago archaeologists found documents on the "House of David" and how he truly was the King of Israel.

trckmn58 said...

Excuse me for my improper English, I just wanted to make sure where you guys were on this topic and see if this was really a serious issue or just a joke.

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58 said "Yes it's true that God doesn't answer all our prayers but sometimes He does..."

Some times things go your way, and sometimes they don't. You don't need a god to make that statement.

trckmn58 said "Are you looking just past ourselves or are we still worried about our needs being met before helping someone else?"

Are you actually asking, or is that a statement disguised as a question? Sounds like you are willing to make any excuse for your no-show god.

trckmn58 said "o yeah this is one is for Jim I have found out that recently that a scientist revealed that God exists through quantum physics."

Good grief... where did you hear that one? That's complete rubbish. Do you know the first thing about quantum mechanics? I'll bet you heard some rumor from some scientifically illiterate evangelist, and now you're just uncritically passing it on, right? Right.

trckman58: "And i base what i say on the Bible because that is really a source that is actually reliable..."

All I can say is that you are excruciatingly naive. You state that the Bible is "reliable" and cite some (unnamed) source of ho-hum archeological evidence. Do you realize what a chasm exists between verifying a few historical events and people, and verifying ANY of the supernatural claims in the Bible. Do you realize that there is NO corroboration for ANY of the supernatural claims? Do you realize that all works of historical fiction contain SOME actual facts?

How are you doing on that evidence for your invisible conscious being. Are you going to supply some, or are you simply ignore all those requests? (My money is on the later.)

As for his sophomoric English trckman58 said "...I just wanted to make sure where you guys were on this topic and see if this was really a serious issue or just a joke."

Oh, right, that makes a lot of sense. Sure, write like a moron to see if people here are serious. Good thinking there, pal.

Astreja said...

As I said earlier, trckmn knows he's out of his depth and now has a friend doing the posting for him.

Get lost, both of you.

Jim Arvo said...

Ahhh... good call Astreja. You may well be right. However, between the two of them, their knowledge of both science and theology is still, shall we say, somewhat lacking. (Trying to be polite here.)

.:webmaster:. said...

"Historians have proved the Bible to be the most accurate document in all of history..."

What historians would those be? What are their names, and what are their published works?

Thanks.

Yogi Bear said...

Do you realize that there is NO corroboration for ANY of the supernatural claims?

- why did 1st century Christians die for their beliefs in the 1st century? These are the actual witnesses to the Gospel claims. People don't die for a lie. They'll die for unverifiable beliefs but that isn't the case for these 1st Christians.
- why do the Gospel writers make such tremendous efforts to be true to geography, "characters", event time lines yet they collectively agree to make up lies about miracles? Especially when everything they wrote asks people to eliminate the hypocrisy or duality from their lives?


Why would the same proteins show up time and again, with only slight variations? Why would there be homologies between vastly different structures (e.g. wings, hands, flippers, fins) in different species?

- why does my Toyota have 4 wheels and nearly all vehicles on the road also have that same design?
- why are there so many irreducibly complex biological systems?

.:webmaster:. said...

"- why did 1st century Christians die for their beliefs in the 1st century? These are the actual witnesses to the Gospel claims. People don't die for a lie. They'll die for unverifiable beliefs but that isn't the case for these 1st Christians."

Everyone in Jerusalem died when Titus sacked it in 70 CE. ref

Three years later, more died at Masada. Does people dying for something prove that donkeys really talk? People most certainly do die for lies all the time. How many Mormons died in the 1800s? Does that mean Joseph Smith really did have an encounter with an angel from God?


"- why do the Gospel writers make such tremendous efforts to be true to geography, "characters", event time lines yet they collectively agree to make up lies about miracles?"

The Gospel writers of Matthew and Luke copied from Mark and added to it as they saw fit. John plainly states it was written for one reason: to convert people. It never claims to be historically accurate.

Why would Joseph Smith make up the Book of Mormon when it was clear he was trying to lead people into a more moral way of life?

Jim Arvo said...

Yogi asked "...why did 1st century Christians die for their beliefs in the 1st century?"

Show me that 1st century Christian died for "their beliefs", and show me what those "beliefs" were. All of this also comes exclusively from the mouths of evangelists. There is no corroboration of this from independent sources (e.g. outside the Bible).

Yogi "These are the actual witnesses to the Gospel claims."

What you have is stories of witnesses, not reports by witnesses; moreover, these are stories from evangelists. If I said that 500 people witnessed a spaceship land in my back yard, does that lend the credibility of 500 eye witnesses to my story? If you think it does, you had better think that one over a little bit.

Yogi: "People don't die for a lie."

You got the Christian talking point wrong. It's supposed to be "people don't die for what they know to be a lie." But either way, it doesn't help your point. The former is clearly wrong (consider the 9/11 terrorists), while the latter is trivially so, as it has nothing to do with whether what they believe is actually true or not.

Yogi: "They'll die for unverifiable beliefs but that isn't the case for these 1st Christians."

Oh? And what is that assertion based on? Wait, I know... more stories from Christian evangelists (e.g. the anonymous Gospel writers).

Yogi: "why do the Gospel writers make such tremendous efforts to be true to geography, 'characters', event time lines yet they collectively agree to make up lies about miracles?"

First, why do you suppose it was a "tremendous effort". People tend to include information that they know (or believe) in stories that they write. If they lived in the 1st or 2nd century, chances are they knew of many people/places/things in the 1st and 2nd century. Right? Second, there are countless examples of people embellishing their stories with miraculous events: every religion has these examples. Every saint had hagiographic tracts written about them with all manner of ridiculous events attributed to them. So, to answer your question as to why people would do such a thing, that's simple: Humans are story tellers; it's in our nature to embellish.

Yogi: "why does my Toyota have 4 wheels and nearly all vehicles on the road also have that same design?"

We can all agree that automobiles were designed by many many humans, and these humans shared ideas (not to mention physical infrastructures, such as factories). But there are many ways in which your automobile analogy does not serve you well. Components are built from materials that make the most sense, not by re-fashioning old components that are no longer useful. For example, rearview mirrors were not formed by gradually re-working the center strut in the windshield. Moreover, the components found in new contrivances (e.g. the CD player) did not play a different role in previous cars (e.g. the 8-track tape player, or the windshield wipers). Finally, there are no "junk" components in automobiles: i.e. components that served purposes in older models, but are now useless (e.g. a buggy whip holder). All of these features are found in abundance in living organisms, and point to an entirely different process than independent design.

Yogi: "why are there so many irreducibly complex biological systems?"

I assume you are referring to Behe's examples such as the flagellum and the blood clotting cascade. Right? First, those are not irreducibly complex, even according to the most lax definition that can be given to that term. Second, "irreducibly complex" systems (in the sense that every component is necessary for its current function) pose absolutely no difficulty for the theory of evolution. They do not even hint at a designer, much less provide compelling evidence for one. We've discussed Behe's pseudo-science in great detail here many many times. It's been soundly refuted by mainstream science; there is nothing at all in Behe's work that points to a "designer". All it points to is a researcher who is too lazy to look for scientific answers.

stronger now said...

trckmn58,

I waited as long as I could. Longer than I sould.
Long enough.
Too long.

trckmn58 said...

Astreja how would you know? So just because I changed to proper English you think it is someone else.

Let me just say this, we are separated from God by sin and most of you know that. So if sin has separated us from God is that why we don't recognize. Most of you would agree that a stealing, lying and cheating is wrong. If there is no God then all of that is justifiable one or the other. In other words, giving an excuse to those type of actions. The Ten Commandments for example says not to do all these things and they weren't giant paragraphs or anything but just simple statements. I am holding back on my proof because first of all if I do what difference will it make won't you still be the same old way you were? Here we are talking about proof of why God doesn't exist and yet we have gone into so much thought and studies that don't you think we have missed the little significant point? Are we just too intelligent for our own good? If God wasn't real wouldn't we be in control of everything that we wanted to be? Some weeks ago, my pastor wanted to publish an ad in a daily newspaper and was wondering how God would provide the money to do so. Later on in the day a man comes by who has no affiliation with the church whatsoever and gives my pastor the exact amount of money that he needed for the ad. What do you want me to do have my pastor give his account just to show you I'm not lying. We are discussing here ideas while people are dying everyday and what are we going to do about it? Just pay some money so we can feel satisfied and go on with our merry lives? Since you guys gave me your proof on why God doesn't exist and I said "No" if I give you proof what would it stop from you guys saying "No"? I know it seems like I'm avoiding some of your other questions but you guys did the same.

trckmn58 said...

Stronger now what is long enough for you? Could it be possible that God did something very subtle and small that you didn't realize it? Were you expecting something big from God?

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58: "...we are separated from God by sin and most of you know that."

By most definitions of "knowledge", a prerequisite is "belief". Since we don't believe in your invisible deity, it's quite silly to assert that we "know" any facts about her. While it's true that we know what it is that you (and most Christians) assert, we do know ourselves "know" these things as we do not "believe" them. Got it?

trckmn58: "I am holding back on my proof..."

Oh, I see. You have "proof" but you just don't feel like sharing it at the moment. Right...

trckmn58: "Here we are talking about proof of why God doesn't exist..."

There is NO proof that "god" (in a general sense) does not exist! Why is almost every Christian visitor here so absolutely unable to grasp this trivial concept. What is missing, trckmn58, if you can possibly wrap you mind around this concept, is EVIDENCE THAT SHE DOES EXIST. Can you pause for a moment and re-read that last sentence several times until it seeps in? Thanks a bunch.

trckmn58: "If God wasn't real..."

Here we go with more sophomoric assertions about what the world would be like if there were no god. All such arguments are doomed from the start because, here we are, living in a real world, and apparently without the help of any invisible deities. Therefore, whatever fanciful world that you postulate would exist if your god did not exist, is just that: pure fantasy. Not only have you made up a supernatural world for yourself, populating it will all manner of fantastic beings with sup-duper fantastic abilities, you've also made up an alternative "real" world. You've got no basis for any of this nonsense.

Still waiting for some credible evidence for invisible conscious beings...

trckmn58: "Since you guys gave me your proof on why God doesn't exist..."

STOP RIGHT THERE! Please point to that supposed "proof" that was provided. If you cannot understand the difference between LACK OF EVIDENCE (which is precisely what you have) and PROOF OF NONEXISTENCE (which nobody has), then all discussion with you is pointless. Come on back when you can get past that.

stronger now said...

trckmn58 said...
"Stronger now what is long enough for you?"

Long enough is long enough. A minute or a decade, or even longer. It matters not which one.


"Could it be possible that God did something very subtle and small that you didn't realize it? Were you expecting something big from God? "

No.

trckmn58 said...

Ok jim so let me ask you this. How long will you be waiting for such proof then? Is the way you are living your life with no regrets? Are you saying that you don't need God because obviously all the voids deep inside of you have been filled? Am I wrong because it doesn't exactly fit with your opinions? People on here have stated that the reason they feel there is no God is because He didn't do anything for them. But really what I want to know is what more should God give us that we already don't have? We have a way of obtaining an income. We have ways of transportation, food, drinks, shelter and financial security. If there is no proof as you say that God is not real so then what is hard to believe that He is. Most of us here have probably have parents. One of my friends just lost his dad today and I wonder what if this happened to me? How long are we going to take these things for granted? If you lost everything that was dear to you, how would you move on with life?

If God didn't love us, then why are we living in a free country? Yes, we fought wars and had several movements, but why did God put His hand on this country in the first place? Was our society always this chaotic and corrupted? The very politicians that we vote for turn our backs on us and will say anything they want to say to get our vote again. Does that sound like someone who really cares for people and is willing to do things that benefit life without the media chasing them? If you guys value life, then how come you can't value God, the ONE WHO GAVE US LIFE? Is it too hard to believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus Christ? When they found Jesus' tomb is that not enough proof to you or do they have to find DNA?

If there is no Hell as some people said then that means there is no Satan and therefore no sin. But wait, we still have murders, rapes, robberies, molestations and even more. Is it so much of a norm in our society that we have become desensitized to it? Innocent children are exposed to so many things and no one seems to care. I have to witness everyday the mistreatment that my own people face but no one hears their cries. Babies dying at the hands of doctors but people act like nothing is happening. CAN YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH AMERICA?

Stronger now, if you weren't expecting something big from God then what was it? Joy? Peace?

.:webmaster:. said...

Trk...,

You said, "People on here have stated that the reason they feel there is no God is because He didn't do anything for them."

That's not the reason I left Christianity. And I'll warrant that's not the primary reason most of the posters on this site left Christianity. Perhaps you should read a few more of the hundreds of testimonials and articles on this site. You have a fairly inaccurate view of things here.

"If God didn't love us, then why are we living in a free country?"

So you are saying that God doesn't love some people? I thought your god loved everyone? Which is it?

"Value God, the ONE WHO GAVE US LIFE?"

I'm sorry, perhaps I missed it, but did you already provide evidence that your god actually exists? I know a Muslim that insists that his god exists too. I wonder which of you are correct? Actually, I think you are both mistaken.

"Is it too hard to believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus Christ? When they found Jesus' tomb is that not enough proof to you or do they have to find DNA?"

Your god fucked a human virgin? Gross! Now the tomb thing, that interests me! Where is that tomb again?

"If there is no Hell as some people said then that means there is no Satan and therefore no sin. But wait, we still have murders, rapes, robberies, molestations and even more."

If? If? Excuse me, do you have any evidence that a hell or a Satan exists? I'd love to examine that evidence.

About sin: Are the things you mentioned wrong because they are wrong? Or are those actions only wrong because your god says so? I mean, if your god said any of those actions were good, would they then become good? The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law of God. So if god made a law that said kill homosexuals and witches, then wouldn't disobeying that LAW be a sin? And wouldn't the murder of homosexuals and witches be good?

Think about it. If murder, rape, etc. are wrong whether or not a god says they are wrong, then what's the point of a god? And FYI, your god did command the killing of homosexuals and witches and those who worship other gods and whole villages of men, women, children and their livestock. In fact, he killed the entire planet one time, except for Noah and his brood. So, I guess none of those actions are "sin" if god commands them done.

No matter how you look at "sin," I've never murdered, raped, robbed, molested or done anything remotely resembling any of that. (Have you?) I just don't believe in your god, or any god. Why would I have to go to hell for that? I thought your god loved people. Is having the wrong opinion about HIS existence a sin? Why is it a sin?

"CAN YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH AMERICA?"

Christianity ruled all of Europe for 1,000 years. We call that period of history "The Dark Ages." It was the most backward, cruel, diseased, ignorant, superstitious, and evil time in Western history. Compared to that time (again, the time RULED BY CHRISTIANITY), we are living in heaven.

Jim Arvo said...

trckmn58: "How long will you be waiting for such proof then?"

When you have something, you let me know. Okay?

trckmn58: "...Are you saying that you don't need God because obviously all the voids deep inside of you have been filled?"

Where's your evidence, trckmn? Don't project ridiculous brain states on me--you have no clue, and it is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

trckmn58: "Am I wrong because it doesn't exactly fit with your opinions?"

I don't share your beliefs because you have nothing to support them. Where is your evidence?

trckmn58: "...what more should God give us that we already don't have?"

Some credible evidence of her existence.

trckmn58: "If there is no proof as you say that God is not real so then what is hard to believe that He is."

There is no proof that unicorns do not romp on a galaxy 100 million light years away. Do you therefore believe that they do? There is no proof that a china teapot is not orbiting Pluto. Do you therefore believe that one does? There is not proof that Zeus does not exist. Do you therefore believe that he does? There is not proof that the core of Saturn is not made of chocolate. Do you therefore believe that it is? There is no proof that invisible leprechauns do not live under my front porch. Do you therefore believe that they do?

Feel free to believe any or all of the above. Your god is in precisely the same ontological category. Honestly, I can't think of a dumber reason to believe something.

trckmn58: "If you lost everything that was dear to you, how would you move on with life?"

What has that got to do with the existence of god? Where is your evidence?

trckmn58: "If God didn't love us..."

However that question ends, it's specious. Show me that your god exists first, then we can discuss her emotional states.

trckmn58: "...why did God..."

However that question ends, it's specious. Show me that your god exists first, then we can discuss her motives.

trckmn58: "If you guys value life, then how come you can't value God..."

I'd guess it's the same reason you don't value Mithra, Attis, Zeus, or Osiris. There's no reason to suppose she exists.

trckmn58: "...the ONE WHO GAVE US LIFE?"

That's a ridiculous assertion. You haven't even shown that she exists.

trckmn58: "Is it too hard to believe that Mary was a virgin..."

Mary is a character in a gospel story penned by anonymous evangelists. Show me some credible historical evidence for her existence, please. Until then, I'll assume that the laws of biology have remained intact.

trckmn58: "CAN YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH AMERICA?"

Can you not see that you will talk about ANYTHING except how you know that your god exists?

Okay, I'm done with this. Trckmn, you are a typical believer. You believe because you believe--end of story. Have fun with your fantasy world. Bye now.

stronger now said...

trk,

It was something your god could have, would have, and should have done if he actually existed.

Yogi Bear said...

How many Mormons died in the 1800s? Does that mean Joseph Smith really did have an encounter with an angel from God?

Did they (Mormons) all die claiming to have witnessed the resurrected Christ, like 1st Christians? Did they die for their beliefs, which they themselves witnessed, like hundreds if not thousands of 1st Christians? I'll tell you, they did not. Again, people will die for their beliefs, they do it all the time but you will not get thousands of people agreeing to die for something that they themselves witnessed. Thousands of 1st Christians would have witnessed Jesus' 3 year ministry. When it came time for them believe or dis-believe, no human would go down as a martyr for everything that their new "cult" claimed, if they knew that it never happened. But....they did choose to believe, thousands of them chose to believe because they were 1st hand witnesses to miracle after miracle.

On the other hand, what confuses most people, is that people will most definitely die for their beliefs, without any corroboration. You can certainly argue that most of todays Christians and Muslims, if they die for their faith, it's without any verifyable evidence for their faith.

About the closest thing you'll find with verifiable evidence in the way of modern day miracles would be what happened in Fatima in 1917. With little research you can get official newspaper references of the miracle of the sun, which was witnessed by nearly 100,000 people.

You got the Christian talking point wrong. It's supposed to be "people don't die for what they know to be a lie." But either way, it doesn't help your point. The former is clearly wrong (consider the 9/11 terrorists), while the latter is trivially so, as it has nothing to do with whether what they believe is actually true or not.

Your point about the 9/11 terrorists carries no weight against the point made that, as you say it "people don't die for what they know to be a lie.". The faith of these Muslims is completely based on faith, with no verifyable evidence, unlike the 1st Christians.

I assume you are referring to Behe's examples such as the flagellum and the blood clotting cascade. Right? First, those are not irreducibly complex, even according to the most lax definition that can be given to that term.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. No one and I mean not one single human being has ever come close to explaining how some of these complex biological system came to exist. After examining some of them, in my opinion and many scientists, nor will they ever, they are simply too complex.

Indeed I agree with trckmn58 when he asks "CAN YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH AMERICA?".

Stronger Now, you know you shouldn't be putting your God to the test! Change your heart, give God a reason to trust you, then watch him work.

Jim Arvo said...

Yogi said "Your point about the 9/11 terrorists carries no weight... The faith of these Muslims is completely based on faith, with no verifyable evidence, unlike the 1st Christians."

You miss the forest for the trees. Why is it that you think 1st century Christians had verifiable evidence? Because that's what the gospel story-tellers and late epistle writers say. Hence, your assertion that there was verifiable evidence is an article of faith. If you disagree, then I have a challenge for you. Pick some element of the Jesus story--ANY element at all, such as his birth, ministry, death, resurrection, etc.--and show me some verifiable historical evidence for it. I'll wager that anything you come up with will rest on a foundation of anonymous writings, late interpolation, hearsay, and midrash.

Yogi said "After examining some of them [complex biological systems], in my opinion and many scientists, nor will they ever, they are simply too complex."

What does "too complex" mean? Let me translate that for you. It means *you* have no idea how natural selection could have produced them. Right? If you disagree, then please define what you mean by "too complex" and explain how it is that mere "complexity" is an obstacle to evolution. Simply expressing your indignation at the idea does not count for anything. And who are these unnamed "scientists" you refer to. Name them, and let's examine some of their work. Okay? No competent scientist that I know or know of would make such a dogmatic assertion. I'll bet you are referring to the creationist crowd. Right? (Or maybe you have Fred Hoyle in mind?) Let's hear some names.

Yogi: "Indeed I agree with trckmn58 when he asks 'CAN YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH AMERICA?'."

Not that this is relevant, but I'll humor you. Yes, of course there are lots of things wrong with America. For one thing, science education in this country is suffering under the influence of Christian fundamentalists. It's shocking how ignorant the average American is with regard to basic biology compared to other industrialized nations. I'm sure that's not what you had in mind, however.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

trckmn58: "Astreja how would you know? So just because I changed to proper English you think it is someone else."

That is correct. That is indeed what I think. People who value the message they are trying to communicate would not, in my opinion, put on the façade of an immature and illiterate instant-messenging teenager.

trckmn's cut-'n'-paste buddy: "Let me just say this, we are separated from God by sin and most of you know that."

Correction: Most of us know that "sin and separation from God" is part of the Christian message. Some of us no longer believe that message. Others, such as myself, never believed it. I contend that it is impossible to injure an omnipotent god, even with the most heinous "sin" you can dream up. Nor can one become separate from an omnipresent god.

"Most of you would agree that stealing, lying and cheating is wrong. If there is no God then all of that is justifiable one or the other."

False. Because the societies of this world tend to beat the everloving crap out of people who take such liberties. As a result, we are socialized to believe that stealing, lying and cheating are unacceptable. Morality is just common sense, and no gods are required.

"I am holding back on my proof because first of all if I do what difference will it make won't you still be the same old way you were?"

You have no proof, because apologetics and partisan, unreviewed archeology and holy books are fucking useless as evidence. We've already dissected and discarded the usual suspects, including but not limited to Josephus, the Kalam Cosmological Argument, and more C.S. Lewis than you can shake a stick at (if that's your idea of a good time).

"Are we just too intelligent for our own good?"

No. We are more intelligent than we were 5,000 years ago but we still have a long way to go. In my opinion, there is no such thing as "too intelligent." That's a common tactic used by preachers to attempt to devalue critical thinking.

"What do you want me to do have my pastor give his account just to show you I'm not lying."

Perhaps it did happen. Even if it did, where is the god? Perhaps your pastor has supernatural powers of money attraction. Perhaps he asked for that particular amount because he has precognition. Perhaps Lakshmi smiled upon him. There are many possible god concepts, and many possible explanations of trivial "miracles",

Have your god heal a few amputees, and we might begin to take you seriously.

"We are discussing here ideas while people are dying everyday and what are we going to do about it?"

Um... This is a discussion board. We're here to, well, discuss things. If you honestly feel that discussing ideas is beneath you, close your Blogger account forthwith and go out and volunteer at your local food bank.

"I know it seems like I'm avoiding some of your other questions but you guys did the same."

First of all, the line above is the tu quoque logical fallacy.

As for those questions... Hmm... (scans thead for an example) You mean, like *these* gems?

"How long will you be waiting for such proof then? Is the way you are living your life with no regrets? Are you saying that you don't need God because obviously all the voids deep inside of you have been filled? Am I wrong because it doesn't exactly fit with your opinions?"

Here are my answers.

- Not waiting for proof and not really expecting any to show up any time soon. I have better things to do than hang around waiting for GODot.

- My life is just fine, thank you. I am thriving and learning and have no particular regrets. And, even if I had regrets, I wouldn't look to Christianity to solve them... I have much more effective methods.

- No, I don't need your god because I can successfully deal with my own "voids" when they occur.

(Oh, and "voids" are not bad, either. They are spectacularly useful places to be, if you can tolerate the accompanying physical sensations of emptiness and fear and loneliness. Yes, I've been there. More than once, in fact.)

- No, you are not "wrong". But neither are you "right". Comparing one person's internal world to that of another person is not particularly useful to either party. Our opinions are subjectively true for us but probably not for you, and yours are subjectively true for you but not for us. To cross that gap you must, repeat, *must* provide physical evidence rather than opinions and superstitions.

.:webmaster:. said...

"Did they (Mormons) all die claiming to have witnessed the resurrected Christ, like 1st Christians?"

What 1st Christians claimed to have witnessed the resurrected Christ? Paul's writings are the earliest writings and they date from about 50 CE. He says he saw the risen Christ, but his descriptions are of visions.

The other Biblical accounts were written a couple decades or so later, after Jerusalem was destroyed, and by anonymous authors. So, which of the first believers that actually met this Jesus character, saw him die and rise again, died for that belief?

And if you are thinking of the disciples, no one knows what happened to any of them. All we have is rumors and traditions that were written down and passed around over 100 years after they were dead.

"About the closest thing you'll find with verifiable evidence in the way of modern day miracles would be what happened in Fatima in 1917."

Yes, mass hallucinations and hysteria among ignorant peasants is very close to the kind of evidence you are supposing actually exists regarding the Jesus character. Well put.

Have a nice day, Marc.

stronger now said...

Yogi, I have no god to test. It is your god you don't wish for me to test. Probably because you know he can't pass. I used to feel and think similarly to you. I had faith. I believed in the bible god. The thing was, when I needed his help and honestly asked for it, I got nothing. So try to keep that in mind before you start telling me what I should or shouldn't do. Otherwise someone could mistake you for an arrogant prick.

trckmn58 said...

"Why would I have to go to hell for that? I thought your god loved people. Is having the wrong opinion about HIS existence a sin? Why is it a sin?" Yes God does love people but through that love he gave them a choice, because love doesn't force. What happens when we give our life to Christ? We become His yet we choose how long we stay with God. Once we want to go our own way He lets us go.

"And FYI, your god did command the killing of homosexuals and witches and those who worship other gods and whole villages of men, women, children and their livestock."
Is this said in the bible? Or did a christian give an account that they heard from God?

"Christianity ruled all of Europe for 1,000 years. We call that period of history "The Dark Ages." It was the most backward, cruel, diseased, ignorant, superstitious, and evil time in Western history. Compared to that time (again, the time RULED BY CHRISTIANITY), we are living in heaven."

Once again did God confirm this or did the Christians take matter into their own hands? That's why there is so many different denominations in Christianity because people have taken parts of the Bible that they liked and they formed some beliefs around that.

Stronger now, so if God did meet all your needs would you then believe in Him because then you would be satisfied that He is real? Stronger now, how often do you hang out with people you do not know? How often do you hang out with the lowest of the lowest? Isn't it our duty to serve others?

"My life is just fine, thank you. I am thriving and learning and have no particular regrets. And, even if I had regrets, I wouldn't look to Christianity to solve them... I have much more effective methods."

So when you have pain do you just not deal with it or do you try to separate yourself from it? How are we made in such a way that no one can ever replace us? Why should you have to look at religion to answer your questions if mankind created and we are flawed? Have we bound God to religion because that's just how it makes sense?

Every one has gifts and passions. Why did we get them? Just for ourselves? Is that our purpose in life?

Has anyone found Jesus' bones? They have Mohammed's bones and others as well but where in the mix did they find Jesus'. A lot of us know that the Bible claimed that Jesus died and on the third day He rose. Find me "proof" that they have discovered Jesus' bones.

I am leaving this blog for now but I will be back. And when I do return, I should have some proof.

SoldOutChristian said...

Be reminded folks, that the only reason I came on here was because my son requested that I view this. Yogi Bear and Trckmn58, I am very disappointed in the way you have been going about your Christian walk on this blog. Do you think this was God's will when you came on here, preaching to people that have already heard enough religion that they almost pass out when they hear it again and again and again.

This is exactly the opposite of what Jesus accomplished when He was on this earth. He loved everyone including those that our society seems to pass by everyday. If Jesus was here today, would you find Him on this website?
Statistics say that only 4% of Christians actually walk the talk and that percentage is decreasing. Do you understand how sad that is boys? Do ya? You two are better than this and you know it.

I have been a missionary for 40 years now, and I never regretted it for a moment. Bringing people to salvation is an amazing experience. But how are you two going to show Jesus on here in the comfort of your own homes? I reckon that you two involve yourselves in something that will stretch your faith beyond what view of your faith and see what God can do through you. Stop saying all these things and you don't even fully understand what you're saying. You have done enough damage by being ignorant and stubborn and it's time to prove to the world who you really are in Christ.

If you cannot be consistent with your walk with Christ wherever you go, then how am I to be convinced that you grasp who Jesus really is as your Lord and Savior? STEP OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONES AND WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!

Excuse me gentlemen, but I have souls to save. I want you two to really search deep inside of yourselves and make your decision if you are going to be a sold-out Christian for Jesus or just a religious knucklehead thinking that God confirmed your actions.

stronger now said...

trckmn58 said...



"Stronger now, so if God did meet all your needs would you then believe in Him because then you would be satisfied that He is real?"

I believed that he would meet all my needs until he didn't. It would take something special for me to believe that he is real now that I see he is imaginary. A burning bush that talked or, perhaps, a corpse rising from its coffin after a true christian asked it to. I would say a talking ass would do it but, well, that seems to be happening in this thread.


"Stronger now, how often do you hang out with people you do not know?"

Almost never. Were you trying to make a point?

"How often do you hang out with the lowest of the lowest?"

Every day. You know very little about me or what it's like to be me, so don't pretend you do.

" Isn't it our duty to serve others? "

Sometimes one can serve others by not being a bother to them. I don't expect you to know anything about that.

.:webmaster:. said...

"love doesn't force"

Right. But "love" tortures those who don't love back? That's not love.

Is this said in the bible?

Yes. I strongly suggest you read the entire Bible at least once. Your stupid question belies a striking ignorance of your holy book.

"Once again did God confirm this or did the Christians take matter into their own hands?"

You mean the way you are taking matters into your own hands now? Do you really think YOU, living nearly 2,000 years from the institution of your religion that YOU really have a clue? Arrogance is thy name, so-called "True Christian™."

Jim Arvo said...

SoldOutChristian said to Yogi Bear and trckmn58 "Stop saying all these things and you don't even fully understand what you're saying. You have done enough damage by being ignorant and stubborn..."

I actually agree with this part of your post. I've had a number of discussions with Christians at this site (and elsewhere) that have been civil and interesting. But with these two, I can't imagine it happening.

SoldOutChristian: "Excuse me gentlemen, but I have souls to save...."

You apparently believe that there are people who could go to Hell for eternity if not for others (such as yourself) who step in and "save" them. Is that correct? So, in a sense, the "salvation" of some people depends not exclusively on them, or their god, but on the actions of third parties. Have I misinterpreted you?

SoldOutChristian added "I want you two to really search deep inside of yourselves..."

I'm not looking to pick a fight with you (at least not based on anything you've said thus far), but I'm curious. Would you also advocate taking an honest look at what other people have to say as well? For example, would you encourage or discourage people like Yogi and trckmn58 to read and attempt to actually understand what scholars who are critical of Christianity have to say? Have you read any scholarly works that are critical of your own beliefs? If so, can you name some of the things you've read. If not, why not?

Yogi Bear said...

SoldOutChristian, your post is full of presumptions about my life. Just because I decided to post a few comments about the Christian faith,
you have the audacity to:

- state that your disappointed in us (highly judgmental comment with an elitist tone)
- claim that you know God's will better that those that are willing speak up about the truth
- assume that the only place being evangelized is this web site
- claim that what we are saying is incorrect when it is entirely based on Christian truths
- claim that talking to people about the truth causes "damage" because we are ignorant and stubborn
- tell people that accept the truth and endeavor to live it day-in day-out that they need to "step out of their comfort zone"
- believe that the only reason anyone would post here is for the "permanent" atheists that support the web site? Who else do you think might be coming to this site? Let me give you a hint, how about the son you "claimed" reported this site to you.

Sadly, there is nothing Christian about your post and you know it. Why? Because you're a non-believer that is attempting to persuade true Christians from revealing the truth about God. Nobody that truly believes in Christ would ever speak in such a way. If, by some chance, I'm mistaken and you truly believe that you are Christian, then it is I that is disappointed in you and I will pray our God to rebuke you for attempting to dissuade discussions about the truth.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay then... why don't the three of you go it for a while, and the rest of us can take a little break.

By the way, Yogi, you do realize that calling something a "truth" does not in itself make it true? Right? Just checking. (It's not at all clear from your rhetoric that you understand this.)

Astreja said...

Webmaster: "Christianity ruled all of Europe for 1,000 years. We call that period of history "The Dark Ages." It was the most backward, cruel, diseased, ignorant, superstitious, and evil time in Western history. Compared to that time (again, the time RULED BY CHRISTIANITY), we are living in heaven."

trckmn58: "Once agaιn did God confirm this or did the Christians take matter into their own hands?"

Does it matter? It's obvious that your god did nothing to stop it from happening. It happened to my family (Norway and Iceland) and to my partner's family (Saxony). Either your god allowed the massacres and torture and forced conversions, or your god never existed.

And you, by deliberately assuming the label "Christian", have inherited that debt that Christianity owes the people it subjugated. (That goes for the rest of you lurking evangelists, too, by the way. You are all on the hook for weregild, without exception.)

"So when you have pain do you just not deal with it or do you try to separate yourself from it?"

I deal with the pain directly at the first possible opportunity. No separation. No avoidance. Diving straight into the pain and feeling it until I resolve it.

Every one has gifts and passions. Why did we get them? Just for ourselves? Is that our purpose in life?

Yup. Meaning and purpose exists only in our own actions, and we are under no obligation to share our meaning with others. Deal with it.

"Has anyone found Jesus' bones?"

How would one even begin to identify "the bones of Jesus"? I suppose we could run DNA tests if we had samples from his descendants, but first we would have to identify those people. And families were large back then, and the bones could just as easily belong to his brother or cousin or great-grandfather.

And yes, I think that if Jesus existed he did have a body and he did die and he did not come back to life.

dano said...

SoldOutChristian wrote:
"Do you think this was God's will when you came on here, preaching to people that have already heard enough religion that they almost pass out when they hear it again and again and again."

"I have been a missionary for 40 years now, and I never regretted it for a moment."

"You have done enough damage by being ignorant and stubborn and it's time to prove to the world who you really are in Christ."

Dan responds:
Since you want to be the wise old man of the Jesus camp, and came here to straighten them out, and tell them that they should be ashamed of themselves for talking about religion to us Non Christians, why do you proceed to start preaching religion to us?

And talking about doing damage to people, how about all the damage you have done over the last 40 years, by instilling fear into innocent people (and children) by telling them that they must become stupid like you, and join your cult, and believe your nonsensical Bible gibberish or they are going to fry in hell forever, not to mention the Satan crap?

DON'T YOU KNOW, THAT TO TEACH THAT SHIT TO CHILDREN IS CHILD ABUSE?

Dan (71 year old agnostic)

Yogi Bear said...

Some of you people actually believe that SoldOutChristian is a Christian? You must, if your going to post questions to this "Christian".

If I didn't yet make it clear enough, let me help you a little more.

SoldOutChristian said:
"If you cannot be consistent with your walk with Christ wherever you go, then how am I to be convinced that you grasp who Jesus really is as your Lord and Savior?"

Nobody that believes in Christ would refer to other Christians with the word "your" in this sentence. They would have the natural inclination to use "our" because he's the Lord and Savior of all those that truly believe and love him.

As well, very few true Christians would utter the words "I have souls to save". This is a most arrogant statement that shouldn't be stated with someone that lives with the Holy Spirit as his guide. It is God that saves souls, not us. He let's us work in his vineyard but, ultimately, whether or not a branch bears fruit is entirely up to him, not us.

To answer the person about their concern with my using the word "truth", the answer is, yes, it is true for all believers. For us, the truth is true....it's not a half truth, it's completely true. I'm sure you've heard by now that nobody can know the truth unless God let's them know the truth. And God won't let anyone know the truth unless they turn their will towards him. The logical deduction from this is that many people today don't know the truth because they don't want to know it. Plain and simple.

Jim Arvo said...

Yogi,

It's quite possible that SoldOutChristian is not actually a professing Christian, but an impostor, as you suggest. It matters very little to me. Let them speak up if they wish, and we'll attempt to discern where they stand based on what they say. Fair enough? Either way, SOC's criticism is legitimate, in my opinion; many visiting Christians at this site pretend that they know things they do not. It becomes abundantly clear that most of them simply repeat things they've heard and uncritically accepted, which is a poor substitute for "knowledge".

Yogi: "To answer the person [that would be me, JA] about their concern with my using the word 'truth', the answer is, yes, it is true for all believers."

What question are you answering "yes" to? I asked whether you realized that calling something a "true" does not in itself make it true. What does "it is true for all believers" mean in that context? What is the "it" you are referring to?

Yogi continues "For us, the truth is true....it's not a half truth, it's completely true...."

Rather like "white" meaning "white", not "purple", not "yellow", not shades of "gray". Right? Okay, I'm with you at the level of word meaning. Let's move on...

"I'm sure you've heard by now that nobody can know the truth unless God let's them know the truth."

Sure, I've heard that from believers hundreds (if not thousands) of times. Check. Let's move on...

"And God won't let anyone know the truth unless they turn their will towards him."

Yes, I've heard that one too. Probably as many times. Got it. Let's move on....

"The logical deduction from this is that many people today don't know the truth because they don't want to know it. Plain and simple."

Hold it. Let's summarize before we deduce:

1) "True" means "true"; not "false", not "maybe", but "true". Check.

2) Christians say that all "truth" comes from god. Check--many Christians do indeed assert that.

3) Christians say that belief in god (i.e. "turning one's will toward god") is a prerequisite for god to reveal what is "true". Check--many Christians do indeed assert that.

Okay, let's get back to your "logical deduction". You said

"The logical deduction from this is that many people today don't know the truth because they don't want to know it. Plain and simple."

Ooopsie. We have a small problem here. Let me isolate it for you so that maybe you can fill in the missing bits. Okay? Your premises, which I've agreed to above, concern word meanings and what Christians assert. I saw nothing very controversial in those premises (aside from the fact that not all Christians will agree, but inserting the word "many" fixes that.) However, your conclusion speaks to what people actually "know" and why. Do you see what happened here? You start with simple facts about what Christians assert, but then take the liberty of assuming those assertions are indeed true. To put it plainly, how do you know that

1) All truth comes from god, and

2) this god only reveals what is true to those who believe in her.

It seems that those two "facts" are the crux of your argument, right? I might add that there is an even more basic one that you did not address: whether your god actually exists. May you wish to start there.

I'll reiterate my simple question from before, as it seems you went off on a tangent and neglected to address it. You agree that simply calling something "true" does no in itself make it true, right? I think that's a very easy question, and you needn't appeal to any theology to give a succinct answer to it.

.:webmaster:. said...

Yogi,

I've heard pastors scream at congregations all across the planet "Is Jesus YOUR Lord and Savior?"

Finger pointing is quite common in Christian conversation. I mean, look at what you just did!

Yogi Bear said...

"I'll reiterate my simple question from before, as it seems you went off on a tangent and neglected to address it. You agree that simply calling something "true" does no in itself make it true, right?"

Yes, of course, calling something "true" does not in itself make it true. What you fail to see is that we are believers. We believe the written testimony of these men in the new testament. Because we believe, we conclude that it is true. You see, we, believers, agree with the judgement that the new testament reveals about each of us. We agree that we are selfish people that cannot ever be truly and perfectly good. We accept this statement and from this conclusion, we thankfully accept the gift Christ offers through faith.

Is it in fact true? That's a topic that has been covered by thousands of apologetics. If a non-believer reads every single one of them, there is still no guaranty that he'll believe any of it. Why, because it starts inside a person's heart. No amount of reading will bring anyone to the truth, not even reading the bible will guaranty a person will believe. You people are probably proof of that point, a cursory look at posts from this site reveals people that appear to have read the bible.

So, based on my beliefs, yes, I still conclude the the following statement is true:

"The logical deduction from this is that many people today don't know the truth because they don't want to know it. Plain and simple."

We can't blame God for it, can we? My beliefs inform me that he's always willing to respond to a repentant heart. So, why are so few people repenting? It must be because they don't want to accept the truth as it's being revealed. They want to make their own rules and that, is simply choosing to ignore the truth. In other words, they don't want to know it. They want to make their own truth or choose one that is more fitting to their lifestyle.


"Finger pointing is quite common in Christian conversation. I mean, look at what you just did!"

You call it finger pointing to help someone see that they are trying to dissuade discussions about the truth, a truth that they "apparently" believe in? No, this is called pointing out a fraud and I'm quite certain that you can see the difference.

Jim Arvo said...

Yogi: "What you fail to see is that we are believers."

It's patently clear to me and everyone else here that you believe in Christianity, so what you must be asserting is that I fail to appreciate the implications of your belief. However, that too is incorrect. I have a fairly good idea of how you "reason" as a believer, having discussed and debated theology with so many Christians. Everyone is different--granted--but there are some typical thought patterns that show up repeatedly in believers.

Yogi: "We believe the written testimony of these men in the new testament. Because we believe, we conclude that it is true."

That's as clear a statement as I could have hoped for. As a "non-believer" I base my beliefs (to the extent possible) on what I deem to be true or likely, not the other way around. So there you have a very fundamental difference between us. I can provide substantial justification for my choice; I'm wondering how you justify yours. That is, why do you think it's a good idea to believe first, and then to decide what is true based on belief?

Yogi: "Is it in fact true? That's a topic that has been covered by thousands of apologetics. If a non-believer reads every single one of them, there is still no guaranty that he'll believe any of it. Why, because it starts inside a person's heart."

Can you think of another possible explanation? Here, let me offer you one. We are not convinced by the apologists because their arguments are weak at best (actually, the vast majority are outright fallacies). If you disagree (and you must), let's hear what you think are the best arguments. I guarantee we've heard them all before, however, so don't expect anybody here to be impressed by them; I simply ask out of curiosity.

Yogi: "No amount of reading will bring anyone to the truth,..."

It depends entirely on what you read, and what you do with the information. Wouldn't you agree?

Yogi: "...not even reading the bible will guaranty a person will believe. You people are probably proof of that point, a cursory look at posts from this site reveals people that appear to have read the bible."

Absolutely so! In fact, you will find dozens of testimonies here from apostates who only began to seriously question their faith upon a careful reading of the Bible--ALL of it. I'm actually shocked by how many professing Christians have never read it. Let's agree on this: If you profess to be a Christian, you ought to at least read the entire Bible for yourself! Yes?

Yogi: "We can't blame God for it, can we?"

Please don't speak for me or anybody else here. I/we don't believe in you god, so I/we wouldn't think of blaming her for anything (except, perhaps, metaphorically). Does that make sense to you?

Yogi: "My beliefs inform me..."

I honestly don't see how "beliefs" can "inform". They certainly *influence*, but inform? Only if they happen to be true beliefs, which you do not seem to be interested in establishing, given that you think "truth" is subservient to "belief".

Yogi: "So, why are so few people repenting? It must be because they don't want to accept the truth as it's being revealed...."

Again, allow me to offer you an alternative explanation. We are not "repenting" because we simply do not believe in your religion. We think it's a man-made fantasy, precisely like myriad other religions. Once again, Yogi, simply putting the label "truth" on something does not make it true. I find it odd that you incessantly plaster that label on your statements. Unless you have something substantive to support your beliefs, that's all they are; beliefs. Labels do not fool anyone.

Yogi: "They want to make their own rules and that, is simply choosing to ignore the truth."

Hardly. That's a simple-minded "just-so" story based on nothing at all; and there's that empty label again ("truth") that you think you are entitled to apply simply because you believe.

Yogi: "You call it finger pointing to help someone see that they are trying to dissuade discussions about the truth,..."

That comment came from the WebMaster, not me. But once again, you are calling something "truth" when it is nothing more than *belief*--you admitted this yourself. You think something is TRUE because you BELIEVE. That's quite backwards to us.

Yogi: "...a truth that they 'apparently' believe in? No, this is called pointing out a fraud and I'm quite certain that you can see the difference."

Sorry, but you lost me. Who is engaging in fraud? None of the regulars here believe in your god, and we are quite up-front about that, are we not? Are you suggesting that we secretly share your beliefs? I can't be sure. I will not attempt to respond until you clarify.

By the way, here's a question for you. How would you ever come to the realization that Christianity is a man-made cult if that were indeed the case? How would you find your way out if you place belief above all else? Can you entertain that hypothetical and give me a straight answer?

.:webmaster:. said...

I call this finger pointing:

"Your post is full of presumptions..."

"This is a most arrogant statement..."

"There is nothing Christian about your post... Nobody that truly believes in Christ would ever speak in such a way. If ... you are Christian, then it is I that is disappointed in you and I will pray our God to rebuke you."

But this is entirely off topic and irrelevant. Point away.

dano said...

Yogi,
The fact that you prefer mystical magical explanations for some things and we prefer rational explanations for the same, doesn't make either of us a better person.

Your way of thinking, very likely, can make you much more acceptable in our larger society, because of the fact that there are more of you, than us.

What it will do for sure though, is retard your thinking mechanisms for as long as you have faith and belief in an invisible, magical deity, and the ridiculous collection of odd, written, and oral, mumbo jumbo that supports it.

You will go through life making decisions based on this belief. Convoluted decisions based on what you have been told, is the desire of your imaginary God.

Some of the things that you may do as a result of having faith in imaginary beings are: You may drown your children to keep the devil from getting them

You may kill someone who professes to believe in a different magical being than the one that you believe in.

You may drink poisoned Kool Aid, because have been told that you must, by your spiritual leader.

You may spend your whole lifetime trying, and failing to justify your beliefs to your logical rational self.

The only thing that will happen to us is that we will live and die not knowing for sure what is in store for us, if anything after we die.

We will be accepted by a much smaller community of people, as the "avant guard" in revolutionary thought, always has.

Other that that, we will get better and better at thinking for ourselves, and knowing what is real and what isn't.
Dan (71 year old agnostic)

Yogi Bear said...

As you said, I had quoted the WebMaster who was accusing me of finger pointing SoldOutChristian. I was addressing SoldOutChristian as the fraud.

By the way, here's a question for you. How would you ever come to the realization that Christianity is a man-made cult if that were indeed the case?

Not possible, because I know in my heart that it is true. There is plenty of proof and you've likely heard it all. As I said, nobody can hear the truth unless they change their heart. I don't see how anything could ever bring me to completely deny God's existence. Even if my entire world crumbled around me, I hope that my faith would be sustained.

I call this finger pointing:

"Your post is full of presumptions..."

"This is a most arrogant statement..."

"There is nothing Christian about your post... Nobody that truly believes in Christ would ever speak in such a way. If ... you are Christian, then it is I that is disappointed in you and I will pray our God to rebuke you."


And I would point my finger again. There is nothing wrong with using our gifts of reason and the moral truths imprinted on our hearts. People believe that judging is wrong but what is actually wrong, is to judge with arrogance. To judge without ever acknowledging our own shortcomings. We have the ability to perceive immoral behavior and it isn't wrong to rebuke someone when we see it, all the while being respectful of their state in life. What is wrong is to judge anyone to the point of condemnation. Obviously, nobody can ever completely know someone else's life experiences and make a proper objective analysis of their state in the eyes of God. Only God knows man's heart and we should never make any conclusion about a person's salvation. But, we can most certainly observe behaviors and judge them as being moral or immoral.

So yes, WebMaster, I am pointing out problems with SoldOutChristian's post. If you know Christian beliefs, than you can see that my reasons for rebuking him are based on the acepted beliefs of all Christians.

Jim Arvo said...

I posed this question for Yogi: How would you ever come to the realization that Christianity is a man-made cult if that were indeed the case?

Yogi replied "Not possible, because I know in my heart that it is true."

You did not answer the question, Yogi. The question contained a hypothetical situation, which you ignored. In fact, that's precisely why I asked the question--to see if you are capable of entertaining a hypothetical situation that you find objectionable. It would appear (based on your reply) that you cannot.

So, it seems you would be (and in fact, are) trapped in the cult indefinitely because you lack the vital tools of escape: the freedom to entertain alternatives. Aren't you even going to pose a similar question for me? Aren't you the least bit curious? (Probably not.)

Yogi: "There is plenty of proof and you've likely heard it all."

There are plenty of arguments, yes, and I probably have seen the vast majority of them, another yes. None that I have ever seen, however, even rise to the level of credible evidence, let alone "proof". (There's another label that you use somewhat indiscriminately--"proof".)

Yogi: "As I said, nobody can hear the truth unless they change their heart."

That's your mantra--it's one of the keystones in the brick silo you've built around yourself. Your reference to "heart" here is an emotional ploy that allows you to ignore or at least downplay "reason". What you are saying is, in effect, that unless we feel the same emotional attraction to Christianity that you do, and are willing to allow it to override reason, then we will remain free of the cult. And that is absolutely so. However, that fact looks very different depending on which side of the silo you're on. You see it as safeguarding "truth"; we see it as engendering delusion.

Yogi: "I don't see how anything could ever bring me to completely deny God's existence...."

Oh, I think that's much too stark an outcome to discuss with you. Let's look at something much more mundane. Can you even allow yourself to ask why you believe what you believe? Can you allow yourself to entertain possible worlds that are different from the one you build for yourself? I suspect not. If that is so, your statement above follows as a trivial corollary.

.:webmaster:. said...

Ok, Yogi. Thanks for confessing to your finger-pointing judgmental attitude.

Now, you wrote this: "We have the ability to perceive immoral behavior and it isn't wrong to rebuke someone when we see it."

Setting aside whether it is right or wrong to rebuke other people, what immoral behavior have you "perceived" having been committed by any of the people who are posting observations and opinions on this site? Hmmm?

travis oglesby said...

alright you need to quit complaining just cus "GOD" doesnt give you want you want if you want a cure that bad then find one instead of complaining did you ever think god wants us to mabe quit being little babys and take care of our selves just because he can do something doesnt mean he will just like us we can do anything we want if we want it bad enough. so grow some courage and quite blaming things that happen on the fact that there is no god . there is no proof towards iether way of thinking just take responsibility on the fact that you didnt feel compelled enough to change it

Charlie said...

Disease and evil are the result of the Fall. We chose to turn away from God when given the choice to follow Him. Now disease and evil are a part of life and if God fixed every horrible situation, how is that different than the Garden of Eden...?We can't have Eden until Jesus comes back. That should make us even more grateful for the .000001 percent of prayers that He answers, though I believe it is a much higher number than that.

Astreja said...

Sorry, Charlie. .000001 doesn't inspire anything remotely like gratitude in Me. I don't settle for crumbs from anyone's table.

Your knowledge of pathology is pathetic, and your grasp of ethics appears to be somewhere down in the .000001 range, too. (I mean, really! Who sold you that crap about "the Fall"? Demand double your money back, STAT.)

Lose that imaginary loser of a god, and stand up for yourself as a human being.

boomSLANG said...

Chuck: Disease and evil are the result of the Fall.

Naah, there's "evil" and "disease" in the Autumn, Winter, Spring, and Summer, too.

Chuck: We chose to turn away from God when given the choice to follow Him.

"WE"? We, WHO?...what, y'got a turd in your pocket? And whAT "God"?....how can anyone "turn away" from something that they cannot see?...from something that is intangible? Listening.

Chuck: Now disease and evil are a part of life and if God fixed every horrible situation, how is that different than the Garden of Eden...?

I've got news for you---"disease" and "evil" existed long before biblical times. And if you are a grown adult who believes that "disease" is the result of "evil"; and "evil" was the result of two Caucasian humanoid prototypes, a talking snake, and some fruit?.... then contratulations----you are INSANE. 'Get help.

Chuck: We can't have Eden until Jesus comes back.

Right, right, "Jesus" has been "coming back" for two THOUSAND years, now. When donkeys fly.

(of course, that might not be too far off, since donkeys can already "talk")

Chuck: That should make us even more grateful for the .000001 percent of prayers that He answers, though I believe it is a much higher number than that.

I think the "1" is a typo'.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Charlie wrote:
"That should make us even more grateful for the .000001 percent of prayers that He answers, though I believe it is a much higher number than that"
---
Hey Charlie,
So you say god answers only One/One-millionth of One percent of prayers.

So if I'm doing the math right here, that results in 300 answered prayers for the USA population of 300 Million people
(assuming all 300 million prayed ONE prayer or some equal combination thereof)

Now we have already learned from xtians that all answered prayers come in 3 forms....YES, NO and MAYBE.
To play fair, let's divide that up evenly into thirds.

So 100 folks get a flat out NO (versus a non-answered prayer, which really is the same strange result)

Another 100 folks get a MAYBE, which means at least a delayed YES answer, which of course a YES delayed answer might mean tomorrow or not until the day you die.
Then again, the delayed answer might come back as a NO.


That leaves 100 folks of 300 Million, who get a YES 'immediate' answer from your god.

Out of those 100 folks, how many asked for the stain to come off their shirt while doing laundry?
How many prayed for rainfall to water their gardens or their spouse not to be late for dinner.

I would say at least half the praying done to god is for non-miracle type things that might happen regardless.

So now we are down to 50 folks of the 300 Million, who got a YES answer from god, for more than some mundane wish.

That leaves about 50 who asked to be cured of cancer, or prayed to get some needed heavy amount of cash (but still a pitiful ZERO amount who asked to have an arm or leg restored that was blown off or surgically amputated).

Therefore, saying one prayer to god gives odds of about 50 in 300 Million to get a YES answer for anything serious in nature that is needed from god.

Well gosh, I guess if I want something very important, I'd have to pray to your god a few million times to have decent odds of getting his help.

I better get started right away. Time is a-wasting here.

I guess this also explains why we see NO effect for prayer, as it's as hidden as your god likes to be and just about as useless, according to this math.

Have you informed all those famous TV xtian healers that the success rate is THIS dismal?

Heck, you might as well count on winning the mega-milions lotto game, as to count on winning a YES from this god of yours.
For all intents and purposes, god answers zero prayers for you xtians, just like he answers zero prayers for the rest of us.

Funny how having such a powerful god around doesn't do humanity much good huh.
But now we know WHY, don't we Charlie.

If the number is much higher, as you later suggest here, would you mean 10% higher by this 'much' word, or a far larger number and if it's a much larger number, can you show us the studies done to prove this larger number Charlie, hmmm

So tell me Charlie, why does your bible make us believe god would answer far more prayers than you would have us believe?
Did god change the rules and only told you about this change?

If he only gives YES answers to such a tiny few, and it seems that never includes his human xtian leaders, then why would he bother to answer any at all.

Is he perhaps too busy fighting the devil off, or just got lazy in his old age?

You tell us, know-it-all Charlie.


ATF (who is forever grateful for those measly 50 YES answers this busy god can muster up in his old age)

Anonymous said...

This is from Charlie, though I've lost my password...

Clarification: When I said God only answers .000001 percent of prayers, I was indirectly quoting the originator of this discussion who says that there is a "99.9999% failure rate for prayer". I, personally, do not believe the success rate is so low. That's why I said: "though I believe it is a much higher number than that."

I can't prove to you the extent to which God answers prayer. I can say that He has told me "Yes" before. My grandfather had cancer and was given two months to live, but when he went back to the doctor a week later, there was no cancer in his body - no evidence that it had been there. I had prayed for him to be healed, and so had a great many other people. I know God hears us, but He can see everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, unlike us, who can only see the universe from our tiny perspectives. Sometimes prayer is answered with a "no" and there might just be a good reason for it, though you may never know what that reason is.

stronger now said...

Charlie,

I can answer your prayers the same way your current god does. Try it and see. I also have the extra advantage of actually existing.

So why not worship me and give me 10% of your earnings?

Now, how about you show us the evidence that it was indeed cancer your grandfather had and not a mistake by the doctors/hospital staff. Direct us to the medical reports and subsequent investigation into this "miracle".

Doctors make mistake diagnosis. So how do you "know" your god did this "miracle"? How do you "know" it wasn't Odin, Ra, or any of the other deities that had pity on your grandfather?

Did you just assume that it was the biblegod? Why? Why couldn't it have been another god or just a medical error that was corrected, thus making you and your grandfather think it was a miraculous event so he would be less likely to sue?

Chair said...

you all so silly..

Look at me I'm a lil nobody that searches for the lil things in someones speech and hounds them down for it. So you finally realise that the Christian thing aint so real and so you start speaking rudely and inconsiderately to people? Charming. And don't you go paying out the christians as if you know the bible better than them, cos majority of you don't. Easy to see that. And mr. Webmaster, you told someone to read the bible at least once all the way through. To that I must ask, Have you ever been to church? Yes I hear? Good. Did you go on a sunday? Yes I hear again...PERFECT EXAMPLE THAT YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BIBLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH AT LEAST ONCE. How old are you guys? 15?

You should all stop talking like your the superior.

Astreja said...

And you, little Christbot furniture, should get the hell off the Internet and work on your spelling some more. It's "you're the superior", not "your".

We have no obligation and no desire whatsoever to be nice to you. "Rude and inconsiderate" is what we do around here, and with good reason: This is a place for us to rant and commiserate about bad experiences with Christianity. You are now just another one of those bad experiences.

And WTF are you trying to prove with that "Sunday" nonsense? Yes, the Sabbath is Saturday. Some Christian congregations do indeed meet on Saturdays. Most do not. It baffles me how you can draw the conclusion "He went to church on a Sunday; therefore, he never read the Bible."

Matt said...

I'm starting to not believe in prayer, faith, or God. Just look at the world and the way it is. If there was a God, why would so many bad things happen? Why are evil people wealthy, and so many decent, honest, good-hearted people poor and starving? Why do little children die of cancer? Why is there a need for a place like St. Judes anyway? Why do teenagers have to die in pointless war? Why do people get murdered? Think about all the sick, twisted freaks in the world who rape and kill children, chop people up and eat them, and other sick things like that. Why would God let those people be born in the first place if he existed? All you hear on the news is stories about people getting killed in car wrecks, people killing people, and schools getting shot up. You think their families didn't pray to God to keep them safe? I bet they did. What is the point in praying if your prayers are not heard. What is the point in having faith in something that doesn't even acknowledge you. Good things never happen, and if they do, they are only soon replaced with something bad. Prayers are never answered, and if they are, they go left un-noticed because of all the ones that are not.

Anonymous said...

If you are going to try to make an argument that there is no God, don't start out by telling someone they are wrong. That is a bad formula to make a persuasive argument. Try to be as non-bias as possible when presenting your data. In response to this article, how do you know what God has to say about prayer? You may have talked to a few ill-informed "Christians" who may not know what God has to say about prayer. One way or another, I suggest you read the bible. If you are going to defame something, you better understand what it exactly says. Who knows, maybe you might have a change of heart.

As far as your statement goes, I think there is a lot that you are leaving out. James 1:8 of the Christian Bible says, "If you don't ask with faith, don't expect the Lord to give you an answer." This makes sense in the dying person scenario. If someone truly has faith, he/she will not pray to God only because he/she wants something but rather he/she would praise His name for giving him/her the gift of life and love. If someone only prays to get what they want, what kind of faith is that? That is not praying out of faith, that is prayer fro you. You want what you want and have no desire to follow what God has planned. Someone who asks with faith realizes who God is and that they may not get a yes about the prayer because He knows what is best for the Earth (Kind of how a mother knows what's best for her little boy. Even if the little boy thinks it is dumb and wants to eat chocolate for dinner, the mother knows that a healthy boy can't eat chocolate for dinner and grow properly. The boy can make the argument of "I don't feel any different when I eat chocolate for dinner than when I eat vegetables, so I should be eating chocolate," but if he did eat the chocolate for dinner, his health would deteriorate very quickly and end in numerous health problems.)

This argument can go on forever if we let it, as long as people see what is right many will always choose what is wrong. A great philosopher named Anselm wrote: "It is impossible to make any argument for or against God without understanding and having faith."

- It is my prayer that what I wrote is only an instrument of what God wants his creation to hear and that somehow it has an impact in someones life.-

AtheistToothFairy said...

Anonymous said:
"In response to this article, how do you know what God has to say about prayer? You may have talked to a few ill-informed "Christians" who may not know what God has to say about prayer. One way or another, I suggest you read the bible. If you are going to defame something, you better understand what it exactly says. Who knows, maybe you might have a change of heart"
---
Anonymous (who's knows how to write, but NOT how to pick a name),

Once again we have some anonymous person chiming in here, making an assumption that we haven't read their precious babble-book.
Oh gosh yes, if only all of us had read your god book, then for sure we'd all see things YOUR way, right anonymous?
Most of us know your bible better than you do, I dare say!!

As far as knowing "exactly" what your bible says, it's just NOT possible for any person or organization to know 'exactly' what this bible book really says, no matter how many times one were to read it.
If it was merely as simple as reading your book, then everyone would get the same messages from it, but instead we have thousands of xtian factions because they disagree as to what it really says.

Your god did a piss-poor job of writing his manual to his beloved humans!!!

So yes, we did have a "change of heart", as we saw behind the curtain and found out the god-wizard was nothing more than a human(s) with an urban legend to spread around.

Come back anonymous, when you can provide some proof that YOU discovered the exact meaning of your bible words and I'll get you on a nationwide TV program to spread your great understanding to everyone.

In fact, you can pray to your god for that proof, because after all, YOU surely have a direct connection to your god, via your great faith, right?


ATF ( who is waiting for the line...Thou shall not tempt thy lord thy god, to come next)

The Light Bringer said...

rpiI am a christian. Though i no this will convert no-one who is already on this site, id like to say there is a major flaw with most of your Athiest arguments. Most of you non belivers do not accpet god because of your own narcassim, pride, and ignorance on what the true virtue of faith is. Most of you cannot bear the thought of beliveing in somthing you can not control yourself. You find it impossilbe to follow anything that does not allow you to be the leader. Pretty much this website is for you secular humanists, who feel man is the measure of all things. You claim it is logical to prove god wrong. Well the time you athiests spare yourselfs not reading the bible, you should use to read the 5 proofs of God written by Saint Aguistine. Based off of pure logic, i defy you to find flaws within that logic. Your pride will not let you accpet a higher being then yourself. You find it very disturbing to believe that mabey there is something above me. To thoose who have lost thier faith, as the websites names implys, i grant you my deepest sorrows. This lose of faith may have came through tradgey. A lose of a loved one prehaps. You abandoned your faith out of anger that god did not give you what you whished. Out of the anger that you feel you no better then god. To thoose of you that mock god by saying, us believers should have a direct connection with god, comes from the lack of understanding from the what true virtue of faith is. While it is true that many believers holds this virtue in excess, too many of you Athiest hold it in such deficancy. While this matter can be disscussed for hours, i will move on. One suggestion first is, please read up on philosphers such as plato and aristotle, and understand the meanings of such crucial words as faith. Your lack of ignorance mixed with your biased is appualing and saddening. It goes to show how the Athiest who claim they have broadened thier understadning of god, have really narrowed thier vision to such bianary thinking. You seem to argue that if god was real he would answer all prayers and take all pain and suffering from the world. Ill ask you this, where does all fighting death corruption and hate spawn from? Not god, but man. Man provokes pain on himself due to an excess of pride. It would be more unlogical to believe that a god would cure all pain and save all sufferers on such a prideful and hateful species. With the faith in god comes the beliefe that he does save all, in heaven. But that is an other meta-physical debate for another time. I no many of you will dissagree with all that i said. But before you respond with a statment such as "why dont you tell you god to cure aids and cancer" or sumthing of that nature, look deep into what i have typed and ask yourself, is any of what i have said today in the slightest way true? I would bet more then not it is. You argue that god cannot be real, becuase if he was, he is not just. Well answer me one last question. Explian true justice, without any form of relativist argument, in a godless truthless random universe. If i was a betting man id bet you could not. Have a happy Christmas, Hannaka, Ramadan and any other form of celebartion. Praise Allah, Glory to Christ, and watch out for us Yaweah. Peace...

now I see said...

I needed that, thankyou.

Ted said...

Hmmm....I guess it really comes down to this Heaven and Hell thing in all reality. This is a deep question we all have to answer for ourselves. We all know that the human death rate is 100%. No human lives forever. So, would I rather live for Christ and have life eternal?...or eventually die and realize that this Heaven and Hell thing is true and now my feet are hot! If I live for Christ and die someday and then realize that there is no God, I've lost nothing. If I don't live for Christ and die someday and then realize that this Heaven and Hell thing is true, then I've lost EVERYTHING. For me, that at least got me seeking out and studying who this Christ really is. Remember that the Bible was translated from Hebrew. So, to fully understand it, you have to learn the Hebrew culture at that time and how people lived. I'm not into history like most other people, but it is key to understanding the truths in the Bible and digging into the meanings of certain passages. My last point is that the gift of eternal salvation is free...no strings attached. All of the other stuff in the Bible that people get caught up in good stuff for discussion and discovery of the truth, but not a Heaven or Hell issue. John 3:16 is fundamentally the crux of Christianity and determines where you go after this life. Just my two cents on how I came to believe.

boomSLANG said...

Ted the Christian asserts... No human lives forever. So, would I rather live for Christ and have life eternal?...

Hey, wait a just a cotton-pickin' minute...you just said "no human lives forever". So, unless you become something other than human when you expire, that would rule out "life eternal". 'Care to explain?

Ted continues......or eventually die and realize that this Heaven and Hell thing is true and now my feet are hot!

Um, how will you "realize" anything when you're DEAD? And if you figure that much out, how about if you "realize" that you bet all your cards on the wrong "God"? Then what?

Ted...My last point is that the gift of eternal salvation is free...no strings attached.

Liar. You must accept the "gift". There's your "string".

Ted...Just my two cents on how I came to believe.

Yes, "Pascal's Wager"..i.e...believe out of fear and intimidation. Good grief...what an utterly poor reason to believe something. It's logically worth about one "cent", so you're evidently price gouging.

stronger now said...

Ted, your last name wouldn't be Haggard, would it?

Eric said...

I would like to suggest two things which I believe to be fallacies in this article:
1. This article, at its very best, proves not that God doesn't exist, but that prayer doesn't work in the way many people believe it does.
2. This is not a logically structured argument. It is merely observational.

jllnmcdwll said...

okay, let me tell every single one of you non belivers something.
you can sit here, posting all this dumb shit about not beliving in christ. & how none of what christians belive is true, but i will tell you one thing right now..
you can say what you need to say. think what you need to think. tell yourself he isnt true.. make your self belive something.. just to make yourself feel better.. but there is a god. there is something bigger out there. something watching over me every night. there is something that i pray to everynight.

proof? you want some.
how about you take about an hour of your time.. to sit down, & pray to him. give yourself to him.
& ask him for a SIGN. a sign to show that he is real. give it a couple days.. months.. however long it needs to. but i will tell you one thing right now, that sign is gonna come up. when you least expect it.

when i was young, i used to sit down everynight & pray to god.
tell him everything that i have done. talk to him, like he is my bestfriend.. & one night, i just prayed for hours.
praying about stuff normal 13 year olds wouldnt.
& this light appeared infront of me. i cant descirbe it.. i dont know what it was a first. but it had a face. & it had a smile. & the softest blue eyes. it reached out & touched my hand.

chill's came up my body.
& i felt protected. i felt amazed.
i was shocked.

& do you wanna know what i call that? i call it an angel.
from heaven. sent from god.

god talks to me.. he helps me.
every single day of my life.

& im not asking you to belive what im saying. & im not asking you to give yourself to god. but i am asking you to remember my words.
because they are true.
& one day, your gona stand before god. & he is gonna tell you what im telling you. so remember what im saying.
do you want to spend forever in hell? please, please just listen to me. here me out. i wouldnt be taking up all my time writting this if it wasnt true;
if there wasnt a god.
because there is.
just please.
pray.
ask him for forgivness.
JUST TRY IT. & if it doesnt work, & he doesnt answer your prayers..
then STOP. but im telling you you wont regret this. not now. not never.
not when your in heaven, thanking me.. because im the girl who saved you.

Astreja said...

Jllnmcdwll: "you can say what you need to say. think what you need to think. tell yourself he isnt true.. make your self belive something.. just to make yourself feel better.. but there is a god."

Prove it. We are totally unconvinced by your subjective and unverifiable 'angel' testimony, probably triggered by hours and hours of self-hypnosis "prayer" and heavily biased by beliefs that were already brainwashed into you by the adults in your life:

"when i was young, i used to sit down everynight & pray to god."

See, what did I tell you? You were praying because someone had previously told you about this alleged god.

"...but i am asking you to remember my words... because they are true.... & one day, your gona stand before god."

Again, more evidence that you were fucking brainwashed, psychologically abused into belief by tales of heaven and hell.

Yes, I am calling your parents and other religious teachers abusers. What they have done to your mind is truly shameful.

"do you want to spend forever in hell?"

Well, I don't think that "Hell" exists; but I would much sooner go there than worship a god that would create such a place as Hell. Because any being that would deliberately create such a place is not to be trusted. Period.

"i wouldnt be taking up all my time writting this if it wasnt true..."

I have no doubt that you think that it's true, but I see no evidence that it actually is true.

I also think that you are naïve and extremely uncritical in your beliefs. You may be getting some comfort from what you believe, but in My opinion those benefits are coming entirely from your own imagination and unconscious mind.

"ask him for forgivness."

No fucking way. I do not negotiate with invisible, intangible supernatural terrorists. Any god that would require people to beg for 'forgiveness' is an egotistical, controlling bastard completely unworthy of My respect.

And, once again, this obsession with 'forgiveness' indicates that Christian mythology was drummed into your head by childhood indoctrination.

boomSLANG said...

"....it had a face. & it had a smile. & the softest blue eyes. it reached out & touched my hand."

AtheistToothFairy said...

jllnmcdwll wrote:
you can sit here, posting all this dumb shit about not beliving in christ.
----
jllnmcdwll,

Besides the fact that your writing style is still that of a 13 year old child, since when does a "true xtian" ever use the words "shit" and "christ" in the same 'sentence'?

The only thing "dumb" here I see, is your own inability to face reality.

>you can say what you need to say. think what you need to think. tell yourself he isnt true.. make your self belive something.. just to make yourself feel better.

Actually, the huge lack of evidence for your god/jesus, is what pretty much did all the convincing for us. I most certainly did not 'make' myself disbelieve in your god.

Myths are funny that way, as they pretty much speak for themselves, if you take just a little bit of time to actually look at them with open eye's.


> but there is a god. there is something bigger out there.

Yes, bigger. It's called the UNIVERSE and it contains no god(s) that are holding the hands of any humans.


>something watching over me every night. there is something that i pray to everynight.

Do you also still have monsters under your bed as well?
Perhaps you should call Ghostbusters, to have that infestation that watches you when you sleep, removed from your bedroom?
(or maybe the police, if it's made from flesh and blood)


>proof? you want some.

Yes please.
We have yet to see ANY proof of your god and we've waited an awful long time for some enlightened xtian to bring some to us.


>how about you take about an hour of your time.. to sit down, & pray to him. give yourself to him.
& ask him for a SIGN. a sign to show that he is real.

Been there, got that T-shirt, but still no god answered.
Perhaps I was wearing the wrong T-shirt at the time?
(maybe I needed a glow-in-the-dark T-shirt instead)


>when i was young, i used to sit down everynight & pray to god.

Yeah, I did the same stupid thing when I was young.

>tell him everything that i have done. talk to him,

How can you decipher the difference between your talking to god and talking to your stuffed animals?
Maybe your stuffed animals are also really like mini-gods?


>like he is my bestfriend.. & one night, i just prayed for hours.
praying about stuff normal 13 year olds wouldnt.

I see your problem now.
Spending hours praying to some mythical invisible being and wishing hard for it to answer back, would make a lot of people teeter on the brink of temporary insanity.


> this light appeared infront of me. i cant descirbe it.. i dont know what it was a first. but it had a face. & it had a smile. & the softest blue eyes. it reached out & touched my hand.

So this so called being, that was made of photons, had the ability to TOUCH your hand?
Do you perhaps have this over-fondness for blue eyes?

You didn't by chance, have any stuffed pals in your bedroom, that had a smiling face and soft blue eye's, or something close to that description, that your mind could see in the way your describe?

>chill's came up my body. & i felt protected. i felt amazed.
i was shocked.

Shocked you say?
Maybe the stuffed pet developed a short circuit.

I guess you're also saying that angels love to give children the 'chills'?
Who knew!!

>god talks to me.. he helps me. every single day of my life.

Do us a favor and set up a video recorder tomorrow, when the witching hour arrives where you hear (or see) god or an angel talking to you. Please record any sights or sounds from these un-natural creatures.
We'd love to see this revealing video on youtube.com.


& im not asking you to belive what im saying. & im not asking you to give yourself to god.

Whew, for a moment I thought you were going to ask us to believe and convert.
I was getting *chills* up my spine just thinking you would.


> but i am asking you to remember my words.

Okay, Deal,
I'll remember them until I hit the post button, ok


>because they are true.

Now where have I heard those words before.
Oh, from every person making some supernatural claim, that's where.

>& one day, your gona stand before god.

Wait a second, are you saying that this god can't afford chairs for us to sit in and we have to stand the whole time. Sounds way too much like church services to this tooth fairy.
I'll pass, but thanks anyway.

>do you want to spend forever in hell?

That depends on if the devil provides marshmallows or not?

>please, please just listen to me.

Are you begging me now.
Does your god beg as well, maybe like a hungry puppy, that gives you that puppy-dog look for some food?

This 'begging' of yours has other interesting 'potentials', but well, ohhhh never mind [g]

> here me out.

Do you mean 'here' me out, or hear me out?
I'm not sure I know how to accommodate the former.


> i wouldnt be taking up all my time writting this if it wasnt true; if there wasnt a god.

I have this really cool looking golden bridge for sale and I wouldn't be taking the time to answer your post, if it wasn't a legit business deal.
So what do you bid for my cool bridge, hmmm

>ask him for forgivness.

Wait, I have to ask this god for "forgivness"?
Did I do something wrong, that needs some invisible sky daddy to forgive me for doing?
I think..... NOT.
Perhaps you should worry about your 'sins' and not be concerned if others have sinned against your precious god.

>JUST TRY IT. & if it doesnt work, & he doesnt answer your prayers..
then STOP.

Hey, that's exactly what I did do.
Prayed, and then STOPPED when it had no results and wasted far too much of my time.

> but im telling you you wont regret this.

Too late, I already very much regret trying to appease your dumb god myth.

>not when your in heaven, thanking me.. because im the girl who saved you.

You don't by chance have a star map of where this heaven might be at, do you?
I was thinking of maybe taking my summer vacation there this year.
I hear it's a HELL of a trip, but their party hour is overflowing with SPIRITS.


ATF (Who always wondered what a writing style would look like, if one stopped going to school at age 13....and now I have that answer)

webmdave said...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bible never says that God GRANTS all prayers. He has his own plan, and sometimes he just doesn't grant what we ask for.

You're just as unable to produce proof for God's non-existence as the rest of the world. There were actually some scientists that tried to proof He didn't exist but ended up becoming believers.

And WOW, a website just for non-believers? You're almost becoming your own religion! A religion of people who's God is SCIENCE.

webmdave said...

and Science isn't accurate?

webmdave said...

There were actually some scientists that tried to proof He didn't exist but ended up becoming believers

Citations for your claim, would be?

webmdave said...

Sa,

Kindly discuss the following, with reference to your comment:

Matthew 21:22 And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

John 14:13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

webmdave said...

Wow, aren't you the Queen of Sarcasm? I am so grateful not to be a part of God's plans any longer. That is one Evil Dude

This comment is so ignorant I don't know why I am bothering to reply. You are clearly a moron and you are incapable of real thought.

Yes, and all the other topcs available on the WWW are religions too.
Kangaroos, tree farms, chickens, medical advice, T-shirts, JC Penneys, yo-yo's, Peru, electrical engineering, camping in the West....

webmdave said...

I am not obligated to do the legwork to prove YOUR claims. If you say god is real, then you need to prove it.

Your statement about scientists converting, where is that to be found? Or is it just an urban legend floating around hand and hand with that free case of M&Ms?

Our god is science? Maybe so, maybe not, but at least science works without us having to offer burning goats to it as a bribe.

webmdave said...

"You're almost becoming your own religion!"

Nah, it's more a support group, like AA.

Bob: "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm an ex-Christian."
All: "Hi Bob!"
Bob: "I've been superstition free for six months now."
All: (smattering of applause)
Bob: "But recently I've been feeling a bit down. A bit lost, you know?"
All: (a few heads bob in agreement)
Bob: "I guess without the church there's just this big hole in my life? A void waiting to be filled? So I, uh, guess I just wanted to ask..."
All: (couple of calls of encouragement) "Go on, Bob.", "We're here for you bud!"
Bob: Just what do you do with all that extra free time?!

webmdave said...

Liz,

I suspect that Sa is sufficiently nanosapient that her comments can be safely ignored.

webmdave said...

Sa, here is how 'Burden of Proof' works -- Listen very carefully.

You come here and claim that there exists something called a 'god' but provide absolutely no physical evidence for such a thing.

You are the one who has made an extraordinary claim that does not line up with reality.

You must provide evidence if you want us to believe. (Big Hint: The Bible is not considered evidence here; you have to produce a testable data set of observations made in the real world, so that we can run the experiment ourselves.)

webmdave said...

Sa is 100% correct GOD is real and when jesus returns u all will all be on your knees bagging for forgiveness! For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"

yeah and to bad this is just another second rate site that no body knows about and if all of you "non believers" really took the time to defead that God does not exist than really your just defeading "nothing" and are either loners with no lives what so ever or have family and friends and seriously need help because your spending all your time in front of a moniter and not with them. and for me i would gladly take time out of my day any time to defead the one TRUE GOD!

webmdave said...

how bout you supply "data" that GOD does not exist...oh yeah you dont have any!XD

webmdave said...

so lets say someone survives a car crash or something by "god" they say "oh its a miracle god saved my life" so you're saying YOUR life is more valuable than everyone elses lifes and he decide to let YOU live and not the others that died? there are thousands of people dying everyday and where is this so called "god"

webmdave said...

saying God saved your life doesn't mean that your life is more worthy, it means that this was part of God's plan and you are thanking Him for it. this whole 99.999999%, first of all is a made up statistic. google it. he was just trying to emphasize his point. and it is not like just because you believe in God that your life is perfect and you are protected from everything. having a personal relationship with God often means a tougher life, with persecution, being more compelled to do what's right, and especially being strong in faith even when times are tough. if God's plan doesn't involve saving your life from that terminal disease, then so be it, maybe His plan from your condition was to inspire others, support causes, many other reasons too, no one may ever know what the reason was because know one knows what God knows or why he does certain things, but His reasons are legit. also, if you are a styrong believer in evolution, and do not believe in 'faith', you contrtadict yourself because evolution takes much more faith than creation. there is historical written proof that the world was created be a God, the big bang for instance in nothing but a theory with absolutley no proof whats so ever, not even the slighteset hint. also, many people have 'heard' God, me being one of them. i had a tough time in life, and i wasn't even thinking of God at the time, i heard the words 'i love you' as clear as if someone was right next to me, exept i was home alone,. with not a tv or radio going either. many people these days don't believe in God because they feel they have no reason to, example "i have money, a awesome job, a great family, i do not need God, i did this all on my own with no help". any way, i think i have written enough. all though you guys may not believe in the obvious truth I do, i will pray for you, yea i know that might make you mad, but trust me, it won't do you any harm.

webmdave said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWKxELUmnLc
ii have a q: why is god a male? o.o is it because men are better than females? :/

so it was your destiny to die? where is god when kids get molested or killed?

webmdave said...

are you effing retarded midgethunter. Try reading what was said again about the burden of proof. Is that really that hard to understand?

webmdave said...

MentalMidget101: "Sa is 100% correct GOD is real..."

Unsupported assertion: No evidence for your god.

"and when jesus returns u all will all be on your knees bagging for forgiveness!"

Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Baculum. The Bible is obviously the work of sadistic bullies, not of any god worthy of the name.

I predict that you, Midget, will never see your god or its heaven, because at the moment of your death your brain will die and your 'self' will be forever extinguished. I further predict that this will happen to everyone who dies, believers and non-believers alike, and that a grand total of zero actual knees will bend in your alleged heaven.

"For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live...'"

The Scriptures also talk about Talking Snakes™ but I've yet to receive one, despite multiple requests to True Believers such as yourself.

Seriously, man. You actually think that something you read in an execrable, primitive and silly book of mythology is true? People coming back from the dead after three days in the grave? Flood waters capable of covering the summit of Everest? That booga-booga nonsense in the book of Revelation?

Grow yourself a pair, and explore the world outside your delusion.


yeah and to bad this is just another second rate site that no body knows about and if all of you "non believers" really took the time to defead that God does not exist than really your just defeading "nothing" and are either loners with no lives what so ever or have family and friends and seriously need help because your spending all your time in front of a moniter and not with them. and for me i would gladly take time out of my day any time to defead the one TRUE GOD!

webmdave said...

God spoke to me OUT LOUD and plainly said he DOESN'T exist. God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

webmdave said...

Here is some food for thought, assuming you have the ability to wrap your narrow little mind around it.

You operate under the assumption that your god has some fantastic plan for everyone and if god wants something to happen, then it will no matter how much someone prays for something different to happen.

When I was losing my faith I prayed and prayed to god to show me a sign that could not be explained away as anything else but a sign from him. I prayed as the bible said, asking in the name of Jesus but I never heard ANYTHING. I read the scriptures and tried to sustain my faith but I could not in the face of Reason. Therefore, if your god is real, he chose not to answer my prayers or enlighten me as I read scriptures which means my being here as an atheist is part of his plan. He wants me, and everyone else here, to NOT have faith in him. He MADE us deconvert, he CAUSED us to lose faith because he never answered any of our prayers to the contrary.

THEREFORE, if you don't like that we are no longer believers in your stupid god, then you need to go bitch to HIM about how he has abandoned us instead of bitching at US about god abandoning us. It's all part of his plan and obviously part of his plan is to MAKE people lose their faith so he can toss him into hell, since that is what a god of unconditional love is all about. That is the only logical conclusion YOU can arrive it, assuming you WANT to continue to believe in such a hateful bastard as your biblegod.

The only other option is that god is NOT real and all of us here finally realized that.

webmdave said...

Sky,

I am a Christian, and I watched all of your video. I wanted to, because I am curious about what you think. I'm sorry that some Christians have written hateful comments to you, because it's important that we love everyone. And I know that many Christians come across as judgmental and hateful, and that is not cool on our part. You have many interesting ideas, but I don't think you or I really can say that our own opinions are true. Isn't there studies that show that most humans only use a portion of there brains? Well, then, how can we be so sure about what we think. Also, I don't think that you are as happy as you try to come across. You laugh a lot and you make lots of jokes, but it actually makes me sad to look into your eyes.

webmdave said...

wow. i dont believe in god, but your argument is totally flawed. First of all, cancer can be cured. It all depends on how early you diagnose it, what type of cancer it is, and what type of treatments are available.

from there on, i just discredited your argument, and stopped paying attention. But one thing i do agree, god doesnt exist. just get facts straight first.

webmdave said...

So, not everyone is a professional writer. Misplaced modifiers happen to everybody. Are you incapable of giving people the benefit of the doubt, or did you just want to come here and be a jerk?

You read it as, "Suppose you or a close family member has a terminal disease like cancer, which cannot be medically cured". Can't you also read it like "Suppose you or a close family member has a terminal disease like (cancer which cannot be medically cured)?"

webmdave said...

What grown, educated adult living in a modern society doesn't know that some types of cancer are curable, while others are not. It is obvious that writer was using an incurable type of cancer in his example. And frankly, I find it hard to believe that a nonbeliever would knit-pick something like that, especially a new poster.

webmdave said...

Think of it like this, if there wasn't a god, would you create one.
The human race is a questioning kind, always seeking answers to the "big" questions and in the past we haven't had the technology to find out what is really going on, beyond what is obvious. Over the years we have created "god", a word that can be used as an answer to our questions.

webmdave said...

All you guys are getting something quite wrong...

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind' - this is the great and foremost commandment, and there is a second like it, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'.

well and this is what I believe.

Now, is this the absolute "reality"? I actually don't know if it really is. It might not be. But I believe this to be true and thus it is true for me.

Does all this stuff really exist? Or is this just a dream? We might be in a Matrix or anything else... but does it matter to me? No, because I don't believe that I am in a Matrix... can I prove that I am not in a the Matrix? No, I can't... I still don't believe it to be true and thus it is not true for me, and even if I am in the Matrix it makes no difference to me because I simply believe this to be real... is it real? I don't really know... and I don't really care, I just believe it.

In the same way: do I know if god really exists? No, I can't prove it. In the same way that I can not prove all this stuff to be real. I assume it to be real...

The actual question I try to answer for myself is not, "what is really real", but "which assumptions improve my life if I believe them to be real". So when I try to answer the question "what happens if I drop a stone", for my life the most accurate answer which improves what I think about life will lay in the nature of physics and I'll answer "it will fall to the ground". Does Physics explain why gravity exists? No, it simply tells us "by empirical estimation, gravity exists".

The big difference between you guys and me is that you only believe what you can empiricaly recognize. Well I believe that stuff too... But I also believe other stuff... Like that my life really matters and has some kind of meaning... does it really have it? I don't know... but if I can't know I can reason about... well what would it imply if my life didn't have a meaning... and what does it imply if it does... and I simply choose...

I chose to believe in god... not more and not less... but believing in god makes him real to me. and having him makes me feel better.. it gives me a reason to believe that it makes sense to try to be good even if all the people treat me like shit... It frees me of judging other people, because I believe that everybody will receive what he deserves. Even if people treat me like shit, I'll try to be good to them because it is not my task to judge them, but to love them even if they are mean to me...

so please explain me... why shall I throw that away... I actually could. I mean there is no proof that god exists. But in what way will if help me in my life. Will I be a better person? Will I be more free? Free of what? At most it will make me free of the believing that being good makes sense...

webmdave said...

Are you ever a RUDE, unbalanced, not-too-bright Jack Ass ( my apologies to Jack Asses out there )...you've been on here before, I remember your inane mouth fumes. I'm not going to debate you, it wouldn't do any good....but I'll tell you this...you have to be one of the biggest H Y P O C R I T E S we've had on here. Your name.
Gee Whiz, I thought that you, "being one of god's creatures" would honor all of his creations ! Huh ? ? You are degrading a group of people out there who have had no hand in the fact that they were born as "little people" ( the CORRECT term )....now go away you hypocritical, and useless piece of human (?) excrement.

webmdave said...

Interesting. I felt the opposite actually. Once I let Christianity go, I felt an immense freedom to do good simply for the sake of doing good. Not for eternal reward, or because big daddy in heaven is watching, or because I have to. I suddenly realized I do good because I want to. Because I nknow what kind of person I want to be and what kind of life I want to live.

Furthermore, when I am a jerk, I now completely own up to it and take complete responsibility. Before I would just pray for forgiveness, and maybe ask that person's forgiveness and trust that god would fix my flaws. Now, I ask for forgiveness, look for the root cause of my selfish behaviour and engage in active efforts to change said behaviour.

I can tell you honestly that this newfound responsibility for my own actions is a wonderful thing, and everyday I feel a little more awake.

webmdave said...

If you are happy, I am happy. You came to our website, we didn't go to yours. Of course, I might just be dreaming that I am on our website and I might really be on your website.... Naw.

Look, this website is dedicated to people that sought their own truths and found it definitely wasn't JC. Some people here do still believe in god. Some are agnostic. Some are atheist. You are painting a whole lotta different people with a broad brush.

I am a better person for not believing in a Bronze Age myth that emphasizts a non-existent hell with a magical but really capricious god that will bless when he wants to and won't if he don't. And it doesn't actually matter how much you pray nor how sincerely. For a time I loved the Lord, my god, with all my heart, all my soul and all my mind.

I couldn't stand the thought of a loving god that seems to beat the crap out of people and then send them to hell for eternity. So, I started to research. The Bible is not inspired by god, there was no jesus and I simply had no Abrahamic god concepts left after that.

You know, I still like to say I live in my own little world and it is a beautiful place. Life is what you make it. I simply do that without god now. Also, I always have dealt reasonably well with the real facts of my life whilst building my own little world. I'll deal with life as it really is and then put my bestest spin on it.

webmdave said...

I forgot to say:

It's not about a myth or a proof; It's about a choice

webmdave said...

sry for multiple post. again!

[quote=Amy]
Not for eternal reward, or because big daddy in heaven is watching, or because I have to.
[/quote]

You got it wrong: again no myth!
and it's not that "I have to".

I want to have to!

I chose to "have to"!

Giving my freedom away was the most freeing thing I ever had.

webmdave said...

If you find joy in surrendering everything you have to a capricious, genocidal, mythical madman being then you have every right to choose that way. I've been down there and came back because I wanted something better than that for my life.

webmdave said...

So are yuo saying you are a deist?

webmdave said...

Mentalmidget102,

Do a little research about the folly of proving a negative.

Please supply proof that your god is not an invisible pink teapot which previously crashed into the earth killing the dinosaurs.

Can't do it?

Of course you can't, because it is not possible to prove a negative.

Please stop asking questions for which the answer is impossible. It makes you look extremely foolish and demonstrates that your mythology is based on nothing but assumptions.

Peace,

David

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