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7/27/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Christians don't really think for themselves, despite what they say

By Bill J

The problem with Christians is that they are not taught to look at the Bible critically. They are taught to believe it without doubt, usually from an early age. To most of them, it is inerrant and inspired by the Holy Spirit, so it has to be correct. When I took bible classes in Bible College we always looked at the difficult passages with faith. The kind of faith that believes there is an explanation for why something seemed contrary. The professors always gave some reason for why God had the Israelites kill children or commit genocide. They would explain why God doesn't answer every prayer, even when we follow the Bible literally, like bringing the elders of the church to pray for the sick. Aren't the sick supposed to be healed if the elders pray for them? Only if they are true elders, right, whatever.

Their explanations seemed plausible to us because we believed the Bible came from God and God must have had a good reason, right? Weren't we taught that God¡¦s ways are above our ways and we can not possibly fathom why God does or did stuff like that, or why He doesn't answer every prayer? My apologetic courses were similar. They never taught you to think for yourself. Seminary was different. At least they didn't try to explain away the difficult passages. They made you talk about it, but they didn't teach you to question your belief in God. They just taught you to modify your belief. Seminary is where I learned that we didn't really know who wrote most of the Old and New Testament, we learned that the Gospels were written decades after Christ¡¦s death and so on. My seminary had at least 40 different denominations so there were a lot of disagreements and debates. It was unity in action. Boy am I glad Christians have the truth and they all agree on what it is.

Most fundies see a site like this as an attack on God. They are committed to proving that they love God and that their faith is real and accurate. This makes them feel good about themselves and re-enforces their beliefs.

When a Christian gets on this site, to argue about why they really know the true and loving God, it¡¦s hard to know what type of Christian you are dealing with, because there are so many different denominations and theologies among Christians. Most evangelicals don¡¦t even understand the other non-evangelical denominations. They only know enough to write them off, as if they are some lesser form of Christianity. They usually believe that they, the true Christians, have it right. Feeling right about their belief unfortunately gives way to feeding the ego. If you believe that you have the real truth, what does that do to you?

It ought to make you sell everything you have and live your last breath serving God. It ought to scare the hell out of you because all your friends and family might go into the fire forever while you lay about praising God for eternity. It ought to make you see how selfish your life is if you don¡¦t do everything you can to insert the Gospel into your daily life and share the good news with everyone. It ought to make you give to the poor and open your home to anyone who needs it. It ought to make you turn the other cheek and offer the coat on your back to your enemy or a stranger. It ought to make you meek, slow to anger and thoughtful. It ought to make you treat your neighbor just the way you want to be treated. It ought to make you love, yes, actually love your enemy as well as your neighbor. It ought to make you rejoice when you experience trials and tribulation. But it doesn't, does it?

So what's up with that? Well, that is the cognitive dissonance Christians try to explain away inside themselves. This is what makes them creatures of hypocrisy and self deception. This is what makes them believe they can keep living a nominal Christian life without really being a "sold out Jesus Freak." This is the point where the Christian says, "I am under grace, because we are all human and God sent his Son to pay for our sins." This literally means, I can not really live up to the teachings of Jesus on a daily basis, but I've got a way out. It¡¦s called forgiveness. I can just keep on living as I please and ask God to keep on forgiving me. Never mind about the Holy Spirit who is supposed to indwell every true Christian and give them the power to overcome sin and serve God. Aren't we supposed to know them by their works? This is the point where false guilt and continued repentance comes in. Some Christians compartmentalize their Christian life (this usually happens after 40). Some always feel like they don¡¦t measure up so they ask God to forgive them on a daily basis. And some don't give a rat's ass as long as they believe the right doctrine and keep doing what their church tells them.

Boy am I glad I grew up and started thinking for myself.

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78 comments:

Audie said...

So true. In Bible college, I was introduced to "textural criticism". I was offended that some supposed bible scholars actually had the audacity to question the authorship and validity of the books of my precious bible!! It really amazes me how blinded I was.

Anonymous said...

I think this is the first article I've read on here where I agree with so many things being said although I strongly disagree with the basic sentiment that is driving the article.

Bill, you are right, if someone is a christian they DO live like Christ. If they have Christ living within them they DO have the power to overcome sin and error in their lives. If they are a christian they ARE long suffering, peaceful, meek, thoughtful, loving of their enemies, etc. Indeed if they truely are a christian they will feel great remorse when they aren't kind, or meek, or loving, or thoughtful, or Christ like.

I am a rightwing, fanatical, evangelical fundamentalist. I believe a great number of christians are deceived, believing they are saved and following Christ when indeed they are just following tradition and error. I argee with you Bill, if they are a christian they would act that way, or at least be actively working their very best to be that way, praying for strength and forgiveness. Unfortunately I think you will find that most people that confess to be christians are nothing of the sort.

Anonymous said...

"Bill, you are right, if someone is a christian they DO live like Christ. If they have Christ living within them they DO have the power to overcome sin and error in their lives. If they are a christian they ARE long suffering, peaceful, meek, thoughtful, loving of their enemies, etc. Indeed if they truely are a christian they will feel great remorse when they aren't kind, or meek, or loving, or thoughtful, or Christ like."

LOL, you gotta be kidding right? And I suppose you are just such a xian?

Chucky Jesus said...

Very well said!!

Chucky Jesus

anonymous said...

I know of many stories of the Holy Spirit working in our lives making us more Like our Lord. Here is one among many.
A Protestant Doctor who treated the patients in Father Kolbe's block, Block Twelve, said that Father Kolbe would not let himself be treated before any other prisoners in that block. Father Kolbe sacrificed himself for the prisoners.

"From my observations, the virtues in the Servant of God were no memoentary impulse such as are often found in men, they sprang from a habitual practice, deeply woven into his personality," the doctor said.

Father Kolbe had gotten better, well enough to be transferred to Block 14. One day, a man in Father Kolbe's block had escaped. All of the men from that block were brought out into the hot sun and made to stand all day with no food or drink. At the end of the day, the man that had escaped had not yet been found.

Commandant Fritsch, the guard who was in charge of this group, told the men that ten would die in place of the the one that had escaped. The guard called out the names. One man, Polish Sergeant Francis Gajowniczek, begged to be spared because, worried about his family on the outside who would not survive without him when he finally got out.

Father Kolbe silently stepped forward and stood before Commandant Fritsch.

The commandant asked, "What does this Polish pig want?"

Father Kolbe pointed to the polish sergeant, saying, "I am a Catholic priest from Poland; I would like to take his place, because he has a wife and children."

The commandant stood silent for a moment, then allowed the sergeant to take his place among the other men while Father Kolbe took his place. He was then sent to the starvation chamber. The secretary and interpreter for this bunker was so impressed by Father Kolbe's heroic actions that he kept an exact record of his last days, more detailed than the job required.

Each day the guards would remove the bodies of those who had died. The sounds of screaming and crying were not heard from the starvation bunker. Instead, the sounds of Father Kolbe leading the Rosary and singing hymns to the Immaculata with the other prisoners in the bunker could be heard. While the guards were away, the secretary would go into the bunker to speak with and console the prisoners. When Father Kolbe could no longer speak from his hunger and lack of energy, he would whisper his prayers.

After two weeks, the cell had to be cleared out for more prisoners. Only four prisoners were left, Father Kolbe was one of them. They injected a lethal dose of cabolic acid into each prisoner. Father Kolbe, the last prisoner left to be killed, raised his arm to the guard. On August 14, 1941, the eve of the feast of the Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven, Father Kolbe was martyred. The next day, his body was cremated.

God is working in our lives it is a process but He walks with us. I think its alot like peter walking on the water toward Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Oh please, you have one story that may or may not be true that took place in another place and another century? Is he the only "true christian" you know? Pity the rest of us 6.5 billion that are going to burn in hell.

Vigile

Thackerie said...

Anonymous FundiBot: "Indeed if they truely are a christian they will feel great remorse when they aren't kind, or meek, or loving, or thoughtful, or Christ like. ... I am a rightwing, fanatical, evangelical fundamentalist."

Oh puh-leeze! How can one be "christ-like" and right-wing at the same time? The two are complete opposites.

Brock said...

Anonymous wrote: If someone is a Christian they DO live like Christ...they are long suffering, peaceful, meek thoughtful, loving of their enemies, etc.

All I can say to that is I've never met a Christian. If Anonymous thinks he is one, I guess he's suffering from the sin of pride.

stronger now said...

So he sacrificed himself for what he thought was true. It doesn't make it true.

Didn't jesus say that spirit filled xtians would be immune to any poison, move mountains, and all kinds of useful things.

Why didn't god feed this poor man by haveing birds fly manna to his cell?

I agree that Father Kolbe cared about other people, but I don't see god caring for him.

jfraysse said...

Dear Anonymous Fanatical, Right-Wing Christian Fundy: When leaving a comment, please click on “Post a Comment”, then “Choose an Identity”, then select “Other” and type in a UserName (make it up , RWFF for right wing fanatical Fundy might be good, but you choose) then enter your comments, type in the word verification and click on “Publish” You don’t need a Google account but the WM may delete your comments if you don’t enter a username of some description.

BTW: Please tell me if there is ANYHING God could do or allow that would offend you? That is, cause you to reject “God” as the All-Loving, All-Good, All-Powerful and All-Knowing Creator and Father-God of the Universe.

Obviously, you think YOU have “God’s Will” pegged and reject the idea that millions of others who claim Christ as their savior are actually indeed, “Christians”. I suspect you think of yourself as a “True Christian”. This is a VERY arrogant position, anything but meek that I’m sure would cause many a follower of Jesus to stumble. How do you know YOU are not deceived?

Brock said...

Anonymous also said, "I am a rightwing, fanatical, evangelical fundamentalist." By saying this, he proved the original thesis, that "Xians don't really think for themselves, despite what they say."

It's hard not to be angry at people like this who think that you have to accept their god and jesus or you are "less than."

Huey said...

"While the guards were away, the secretary would go into the bunker to speak with and console the prisoners."

Speaking as a former member of our nations military, this statement does not ring true. Guards do not remove dead bodies, they guard. Other people will do the dirty work. Sounds like another story overly embellished to make it "inspirational".

Why do fundies think that if they quote an inspirational anecdote, they are providing us with "proof" of god?

Chucky Jesus said...

To the Xian poster, regarding: "I know of many stories of the Holy Spirit working in our lives making us more Like our Lord, etc."

First of all, you have used the logical fallacy form of appeal to emotion, thinking that we would be swayed by this story about a self-sacrificing priest, and that somehow this is evidence of the holy spirit working through us. It's not.

Using Occam's Razor, all one can safely hypothesize here is that the good Father was selfless. No Holy Ghost needed. If the Holy Spirit was this powerful, why not just enter the minds of the Nazis and make them good?

Futhermore, we are observing behavior among animals more and more to indicate that altruistic behavior is instinctive. I have witnessed on video many instances of animals risking their own lives to save another of their group. This makes perfectly good sense that there are genes for group survival as well as individual survival; after all, the individual could not survive if the group does not. There has to be a gene pool, as well as group support mechanisms.

Again, no god or spook needed.

Finally, I question the veracity of this story. It has all the red flags of an urban legend. Morality tends towards black and white; the evil Nazis vs the good Catholics and the even better Catholic Priest.

Why do Xians insist on insulting our intelligence?

anonymous said...

I am truely amazed and disappointed. I posted a comment that was in no way an attack on the article or the various ex-christians here on this site and yet some of you could not resist attacking my comments. I agree with the author, although for different reasons. I agree that most Christians don't live up to what they say they are. I agree that sadly may Christians do not read for themselves, learn for themselves, seek God for themselves. I believe that many Christians are Christians in name only and not in lifestyle. I disagree that there is no God, true, but I did not attack the article on those grounds. Indeed I did not attack the comments in the article at all.

Never the less, some of you felt the need to attack me. Why? What purpose did that serve? I did not attack you, I did not say a single negative comment other then to say I disagree with the basic sentiment.

I'm sorry you feel the need to try and tear my comments down. I don't know how you can expect to have any kind of dialogue with others if all you can do is attack every thing they say, especially when their comments are not an attack on you.

jfraysse said...

Hello Bill J: Excellent piece, man! Sorry, I got distracted with RWFF.

I especially liked the “It ought to” paragraph. The “Christian Life” is an impossible one when you look at all of the admonishments, requirements and commands. On balance, I don’t know how anyone could actually be “assured of their salvation” from studying the bible and then when you add in the “little extras” from the ten of thousands of denominations, you have a bewildering array of contradictory edicts. To make matters worse, many of these edicts are cross-threaded with each other and the ones that are not are hopelessly unexecutable. What a mess! No wonder pastors and other minister-types burnout and dropout. Even with the purest of heart, if you think too much, you are done!

The only way around all of this might be to believe that, if there is a God, that circumstances or God’s Spirit (for the Christian) or maybe even “evolution” would lead you in the right direction for YOUR life. It is also paramount to understand that “your leading” may not be the same for someone else! For this reason, I try not to be too judgmental of others in matters that don’t involve abject evil.

I know that some here might be offended by this, but I “think about” those who are obviously hurting. I’m not deluded with the “prayer thing” either and try to never “pray about something” when I can actually “do something”. It’s just my way of understanding the pain that many of you are feeling. My experience and the scientific data very strongly suggest that “prayer” does absolutely nothing, but it just might be an encouragement to someone who knows that, nevertheless, I am thinking about them.

Later and keep sharing! Grace & Peace, John

jim earl said...

stronger now asks:

Why didn't god feed this poor man by haveing birds fly manna to his cell?

Very simple answer: There is no god.

Any questions?

computer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
computer said...

Strongernow wrote: I agree that Father Kolbe cared about other people, but I don't see god caring for him.
Yes he does care and for Father Kolbe his caring came from his love for God and what God did for him on the cross. God was with Father Kolbe in His suffering through the Holy Spirit that stregnthened him in his witness of his love of God to others. Father Kolbe lived a life of sacrifice and in the martyrdom of Father Kolbe he shared in the sacrifice of Christ and now shares his life in Christ presence which is what the Catholic Church means by using the title Saint before his name. He is now also known as Saint Maximillian Kolbe. Christians all share the same hope in Christ as St. Kolbe had and are also called to live the life of loving God and others through the life of the Holy Spirit in us. Let us pray for each other as we grow in grace.

computer said...

You may ask why did God make Saint Maximillian Kolbe suffer? He didnt make him suffer the Nazi's did that but St Kolbe was allowed to share in Christs suffering but why? maybe this verse will help, from 2 Peter 3:9 God isn't late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone space and time to change.

St. Kolbe suffered with Christ out of love for all those who dont yet know God. For lost souls to have a chance to known the love of God Father Kolbe knew. He suffered for you and me. No greater love has a man than this to lay down his life for another.

Vigile said...

Rightwing Fundy Dude:

Pointing out your logical flaws is not attacking you, it is pointing out your logical flaws. Stop. You chose to post your nonsense on a site devoted to ex christianity so don't expect a free pass on bad logic.

If we went into your church and started discussing what constitutes a true atheist we would not expect only head nods in response. Why the diatribe then?

brock said...

The verse from 2 Peter which computer quotes was designed to explain why Jeesus was so late in coming back, because he promised to be back within the lifetime of some witnesses to him. Since this prophecy failed, the author of 2 Peter, whoever he was needed to weasel out, by saying that god would come back in his time and when he said soon it was godsoon, not peoplesoon. This means that he purposely spoke a prophecy which was unintelligible to everyone but him because he was too lazy to explain it right the first time.

Anonymous expects us not to attack him. A nun who was a fellow member of AA once suggested to me that I read the chapter in the Big Book "to agnostics" over and over until it made sense to me. I asked her why I would want to take a step backwards in my growth, and she got offended. Anonymous is also asking us to go back where we came from, and doesn't realize that we have already evaluated and rejected the best that Xianity has to offer us. So he's offended. Stay with us anonymous, and you too may achieve freedom from bondage to your bloodthirsty, psychopathic god.

Michelle said...

Bill J,
Great article. It rang true for me as a very recent de-convert from being a right wing, evangelical xian. I'm having to re-learn how to think for myself, to think rationally and logically without having to filter my thought through the screen of faith. For 14yrs I was taught: "don't doubt" "don't question", "the natural mind is enmity against god"...blind obedience and faith was all that mattered. I alienated many friends with my zeal for god and my superiority in believing I had the truth and lived it - much like anonymous.

Now I know that religion is man made... all of it, based on the myths and beliefs of ancient peoples. I consider myself agnostic now, but the more I read posts by people like anonymous and computer, the more it pushes me towards complete atheism. So keep it up... You're just solidifying my position!

Michie S

stronger now said...

Computer,

If your god was waiting for me to change then he WANTED me to go to hell. I'm an EX-christian. I used to believe, but after waiting for god to help me,like the bible says he would, and no help came, I could only conclude that it was all a myth. So don't give me a bunch of bull about how your god cares for everybody. If he did I would be on the other side of this little debate. Your god is nothing but a myth. A myth cannot care, help, or love because it isn't real. I say the mans' faith was real, but what he had faith in wasn't.

So the guy is now a catholic saint.

Saint, Shmaint!!

I'm the GRAND HIGH POOBAH OF ALL THAT IS CHEESY!! So naner naner.

Titles bestowed by other deluded men make not the delusion real.

You insist that there is a god but give no credible evidence. I wonder why I should believe you. Is "because the bible says so" the best argument you got?

Bill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bill said...

Computer/Anonymous

You can read my other articles by using the sites search engine and look up Bill J.

Bill said...

Bill said...
Thanks for the feedback. I too was once fanatical about my beliefs. I can relate to the thinking of our un-invited Christian guest. It is very hard to break out of the brainwashing that happens when you follow the Bible to it's logical conclusions. At first we tell ourselves there is something wrong with us, then we tell ourselves that God is testing us or purging us or on and on and on.

Usually we burn out or realize that it doesn't work. Then we starting looking for the truth.

I like to quote Leonard Pitts. "Forget what you want to believe. Seek the truth and have the courage to believe that."

Bill said...

"They usually believe that they, the true Christians, have it right. Feeling right about their belief unfortunately gives way to feeding the ego. If you believe that you have the real truth, what does that do to you?"

To my Christian friend,

I encourage you to re-read my post and think about this paragraph again. Every motive comes from some kind of belief. Not every belief has an honest
motive. Try looking at why you believe you are one of the few REAL Christians.

Take some time to dwell on it. Don't use the Bible, or pray to figure it out. Just think about whom you are and why you do what you do without putting God into it.

Good luck,

Bill J

computer said...

Strongernow wrote: If your god was waiting for me to change then he WANTED me to go to hell. God desires that none parish and He sends no one to hell. Anyone who is in hell is there because they wanted to be there. You are not there now and your lifes story isnt finished being written.

computer said...

Bill wrote: Just think about whom you are and why you do what you do without putting God into it.

I have done just that as you see I didnt used to believe and did all the things that would just make sense to do in a world without a God to save me. I lived for the now, drugs, sex everything to my own pleasures, why not there was no future. one day and i dont know why, maybe as an answer to someones prayers but on that day I was driving down interstate 10 listening to the radio and Jesus Christ came into my life. Just being in His bueatiful presence I became aware of my sinfulness and yet I wasnt made to feel condemned but loved and loved unconditionally. I will follow Him wherever He wants. I lived life stepped back without putting God into it as you say and it brought me nothing but misery. With God in my life I am changed and will never go back to life without Him whereever that may lead in this world because I know life with Him can never be taken away from me. A love like His does not die.

Naomi said...

Anonymous:
In 1963 a Vietnames Buddhist monk immolated himself in protest of the repressive Catholic Vietnamese regime. He did it for millions of his countrypeople. He did it without Jesus! So why is Jesus needed here? Is he not as morally correct as Father Kolbe?

I reeally really do wish to hear back from you as I'd like some moral clarification.

William said...

What were you listening to AC/DC's Highway to Hell? I've had the same feeling while listening to that. [End of sarcasm]

Anyway, I think it has been said, and needs to be said again: I am tired of anonymous posters.... At least "computer" has a name (whether or not he was, in fact, the anonymous poster).

What makes your god better than every other god? Just your holy radio? What if others had the exact same experience, but accepted Allah instead of Christ into his/her life? I'm curious, computer. Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone on the road? I mean if Jesus was on the road with a big sign that said "believe in me!", I think that we'd be without doubt (if he'd perform a few magic tricks that is, to prove it). Oh wait, I think I saw a hitchhiker with that sign. He had a dirty beard.... Was that guy Jesus too? Or just a dirty hobo?

Vigile said...

Very nice...

"Leonard Pitts. "Forget what you want to believe. Seek the truth and have the courage to believe that." "

Anonymous said...

computer said: "...I have done just that as you see I didnt used to believe and did all the things that would just make sense to do in a world without a God to save me. I lived for the now, drugs, sex everything to my own pleasures, why not there was no future. ..."

We hear that from a lot of christians who seem to need an imaginary friend or a crutch of some kind to keep themselves in line. It is probably good that you found religion - and good for the rest of us that you keep on believing. However, to be honest, I am very leery of people like you.

Ex-fundie Dan Barker (author of Losing Faith in Faith) talks about being good for goodness sake (as opposed to being good only because you've convinced yourself of the existence of a god). I have a lot more respect for the atheists and agnostics who are good, kind, productive people without being threatened or goaded into it.

stronger now said...

Computer:"God desires that none parish and He sends no one to hell."

Bullshit.

If your god created people with no chance of salvation(pre-jebus) and still under original sin(post-adam&eve) then HE is resposible for their damnation. You cannot have it both ways. They didn't ask to be born and had no choice as to when they were born. The bible god created evil and hell. He kills millions that he knew he would send to hell simply because he messed up in the first place. Then, to make up his mistake, he decides to send himself as a sacrifice to himself, only he's now a zombie that flew in the air to be with his sky daddy/himself.

Is there any way to make it not sound so stupid?

Have I got it right now?

Huey said...

Computer:"God desires that none parish and He sends no one to hell."

By the way Computer, it's spelled "perish". Or was that a Freudian slip?

Bill said...

Thanks for the feedback Michelle and have fun learning how to live with reason.

Computer,

I didn't come from a life of drugs and so forth and I don't do drugs now. I really don't expect you to understand my encouragement to you. Time will tell.

There seems to be a barrier against reason that religious people have to cross by themselves before they can start reasoning on their own. I wish you luck and hope you find your own path one day.

Bill J

J. C. Samuelson said...

Computer,

Anyone who is in hell is there because they wanted to be there.

Every time I read or hear a statement like this my blood boils. Let's follow the logic, shall we?

1. Anyone who is raped was raped because they wanted to be raped.
2. Anyone who is killed was killed because they wanted to be killed.
3. Anyone who has cancer has cancer because they wanted to have cancer.
4. Anyone who is blind is blind because they wanted to be blind.
5. Anyone who is tortured was tortured because they wanted to be tortured.

Apply this kind of callous, unfeeling logic to any similar negative circumstance and the results are equally absurd. I'm convinced that it's logic like this that enables zealots of many stripes to rationalize committing a wide variety of atrocities and crimes against humanity. It can be used to justify domestic violence, simple assault, sexual assault, murder, genocide, torture - the list goes on.

Think about it.

Bored Again said...

Bill, I agree with you 100%. I used to be an English teacher, and whever I tried to applu my analytical reading skills to the errors in the bible, the pastor always had an evasive answer. For example, when I pointed out that the bible clearly teaches both free will and predestination, he would say that is a biblical "tension" that we will understand when we get to heaven. When I asked how Judas actually died, since there are 2 differing accounts (hanging,in Matthew, and spilling his guts out in a fall, in Acts) he would say something like Judas must have run over a cliff and on his way down caught his shirt on a tree, thereby hanging himself. Over time as his body disentregated, his guts spilled out. After a few years of this type of hogwash, I rejected the bible altogether.

Nvrgoingbk said...

Anonymous poster ONE

I agree that my friends have attacked your post. We do tend to get annoyed very easily with the Christian sentiment no matter how good-willed it may seem, but that is because the tenets of your faith are repulsive to us after years of trying to reconcile so many things about your faith.

You propose that there are few "real" Christians due to their behavior, but Paul stuggled with sin himself, so I would hardly say that the presence of sin in one's life is evidence of one's lack of sincere belief and following.
There will ALWAYS be the presence of sin in EVERY believer's life, and that is the problem. Becoming a Christian did not rid me of the problem of "sin", it just scared the Hell into me so that I acted less and less on my "sinful" nature, however, it did NOT instill a greater amount of morality in me than I had before or since leaving the faith. It did nothing to squash my desire to have sex or smoke pot, but neither does the lack of religious belief now make me want to go out and hurt my fellow man, act upon my sexual impulses in an irresponsible manner or do hard drugs. I have always had a strong sense of self-control with or without religion. The morals I have now have EVOLVED over time as I have matured into an empathetic adult. More and more I have come to care more about the feelings and well-being of others simply because it is the humane thing to do and not because of some fear of Hell or promise of eternal reward and NOT because God says so.

If Christians are to be known by their fruits than what say you of the ethical Athiests, Buddhists, Muslims, and other "heathen" around the world who do not attribute their moral enlightenment to the promptings of your Biblical god and what of all of the Christians who act far less admirably than the rest of us "sinners" bound to Hell? Paul, himself said that you are saved by GRACE and not by works lest any man should boast. He claims over and over in the Bible that salvation is based on faith alone, so your proposition that a "real" Christian acts like this or that is not Pauline based doctrine. You claim that a real Christian will feel remorse when they fail to display godly character, so are you to tell me that a Buddhist who conducts his life in all of the ways you propose: "kind, meek, loving, thoughtful, etc." are bound to Hell regardless of the fact that they are living exactly as you describe simply because they fail to believe in your God?

You see, this is the problem Christians just can not make sense of. You claim that a real Christian acts in a certain way, but if a non-Christian acts exactly as such, you claim they are bound to Hell because of the "faith" argument. One has to believe in Jesus alone, you claim, BUT by your own admission, they are required to ACT a certain way as well, which thereby requires works AND faith. What then becomes of the "SAVED BY GRACE" doctrine?

We can go around and around on the Merry-go-round that is your faith, because there is no satisfactory conclusion. I struggled for years with this one contradiction. Are you saved by works, by grace or by both? You CAN'T BE SAVED BY BOTH! If you are saved by grace then the issue should be a closed one, but AHA, there is that provision now isn't there? There is scripture to support both views, which should leave you in a quandry, but you will continue to try and make sense of the nonsensical, because you are afraid to question and you are afraid to doubt. You will continue to try and make a square peg fit into a round hole won't you?

boomSLANG said...

Truely amazed and disappointed Christian said: I think this is the first article I've read on here where I agree with so many things being said although I strongly disagree with the basic sentiment that is driving the article.

Well, the implicit underlying "sentiment", of course, is that there are no "gods", namely, the Christian biblgod---and thus, it would stand to reason that we'd think of the bible as a concoction of man, not a "God". If you're a Christian, well, duh, of course you'd disagree. That is no astonishing disclosure.

The ironic part, however, is that while you disbelieve in all the same gods we do, with the exception of one; and although this is clearly an EX-christian website, you come back "amazed and disappointed" that people tear your a$$ to shreds. Live with it.

Anony': ... if someone is a christian they DO live like Christ.

Utterly false. Firstly, there has never been, and never will be, complete agreement on how "Christ" lived, or better yet, even if such a person ever existed.

But for the sake of argument, however, I ask you: Would you let someone else determine if you are a pizza lover, or not? I'm assuming no, because logically, only YOU can make such a determination, as it is purely subjective. The same holds true with being a "Christian". There's no way in hell you'd let someone else determine if you are a Christian, or not, and therefore, you likewise have zero authority to determine whether or not someone else is a "Christian".

In any event, when we see people who self-elect themselves "Christian" not even coming close to acting in accordance with laws set forth in their Holy book, then NO, we cannot say that they "live like Christ". Nice try.

Anony': If they have Christ living within them they DO have the power to overcome sin and error in their lives.

Hogwash. "Sin", and "error", are two different things, first off. "Error" is something that we are all prone to because of human nature(with emphasis on NATURE). "Sin" only exists as concept in the pages of an out-dated, out-moded, holy book. In the Christian mind-set, there are only two types of people: "Christians", and apostates---"black, and white". Yet, they claim that ALL of humankind "sin", which would be the common denominator between the two groups. So obviously, Christians do NOT have this alleged magical "power" to over-come "sin".

Anony': If they are a christian they ARE long suffering, peaceful, meek, thoughtful, loving of their enemies, etc. Indeed if they truely are a christian they will feel great remorse when they aren't kind, or meek, or loving, or thoughtful, or Christ like.


This is interesting news. Okay, so then all of the American soldiers who are engaging in war as we speak, are either "long suffering", "peaceful", "meek", "thoughtful", and "remorseful" people who are currently "loving their enemies"... OR, they are NOT Christians at all. Which is it? I'd love to hear you justify this.

Anony' boasts: I am a rightwing, fanatical, evangelical fundamentalist.

That's you're problem, pal.

Anony': I believe a great number of christians are deceived, believing they are saved and following Christ when indeed they are just following tradition and error.

But you're not deceived, are you? And anyway, don't you and those "deceived" Christians follow the same source for "following Christ"?...i.e..the "word of God"??

Anony' later says: I'm sorry you feel the need to try and tear my comments down.

I'm sorry you feel the need to base your comments on a contradictory superstitious book of lies.

imaginary sky daddy said...

boomSLANG wrote:

This is interesting news. Okay, so then all of the American soldiers who are engaging in war as we speak, are either "long suffering", "peaceful", "meek", "thoughtful", and "remorseful" people who are currently "loving their enemies"... OR, they are NOT Christians at all. Which is it? I'd love to hear you justify this.

Isd says this is a well thought out point, boom. Cudos

freethinker05 said...

I think it,s time to do a little research on how anony uses his words and sentences. I smell marc, unblinded, and those other screen names he used awhile back.

freethinker05 said...

On the other hand, maybe someone should research what computer posts. Peace. Marc?

Lynn said...

Um, where did all the christians go? gutless wonders.

William said...

"Um, where did all the christians go? gutless wonders."

I was wondering the same thing. I was missing the fallacious argument time-and-time-again, then the cut-and-paste, my refutation, and finally run-away pattern I had grown so attached to from those apologists.

George Davis said...

I am in people's homes every day servicing their appliances for a major retailer. I see so-called christians all the time. In 7 years, not one has ever been concerned about my soul enough to share their faith. But all of them, nearly without exception, are angry, verbally abusive or insulting, whining or emotionally upset. And over a broken dishwasher, no less. American christianity and its followers need to learn the meaning of the word "love" before I'll ever take them seriously again.

Anonymous said...

Christians cannot think for themselves and if they claim to be able too are not true Christians. The basis of Christianity is to accept "on faith" the stories that are uncorroborated as true. As a Christian if you doubt you are not a true Christian plain and simple.

Anonymous said...

To be a "True Christian" you must also be recognized as a "True Saint" such as Saint Father Kolbe

dano said...

freethinker05 wrote:
"I think it,s time to do a little research on how anony uses his words and sentences. I smell marc, unblinded, and those other screen names he used awhile back."

Yea, me too. The cut and paste, Cute Catholic stories have "unblinded" written all over them.
Dan, Agnostic

.:webmaster:. said...

I've repeated myself ad nauseum to you Marc: YOU AND YOUR POSTS ARE NO LONGER WELCOME.

Is one of the virtues extreme stubbornness? Are you incapable of honoring other people's property? Please cease and desist.

However, if you cannot drum up the common courtesy to avoid this site, then no matter how obnoxiously determined you are, every single time you post it will be deleted.

Sheesh.

freethinker05 said...

Marc/Unblinded, sorry I mistakend you for someone else,(a dumbass catholic at that). Now, with my apologize out of the way, the answer you gave about jebuck returning before some of his deciples would kick the bucket, is just one of the interpertations fundies give. The other one is when stephen,(or stevie) was stoned to death,(or just plain old stoned, period), These are the lameass interpertations i've ever heard over and over again. Chris said, they would see the son of a gooddude coming in the clouds from heaven. Peace, the deciples were with jebus, dammit! Well anyways, Peace, Roger.....p.s. to George Davis: that was a neet comment you gave bro, but I couldn't help but, LMFAO, thinking , damn this guy should go to work with the maytag guy.

AtheistToothFairy said...

UnBlinded said:

One quick thing for Brock, you indicate that Jesus falsely prophesized the coming of the kingdom of God before some of their deaths. You should know that this was manifested at the Transfiguration, when Jesus took Peter, John and James up the mountain to pray. They were in the presence of God's kingdom.
----------
To all,

Looking up goggle references to Unblinded's point, I found the bible verses in question:

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him......"

Depending on which website I go to, this verse either supports the second coming of Jesus ,OR, as Unblinded suggested, refers only to the transfiguration on the mountain.

I'll make a guess here that catholics take the latter view but from seeing how many fundie sites use this verse to support the second coming and the 'end of the world' etc., is it any wonder that the bible fails to deliver a clear message to it's followers....AGAIN !!

I'm not an expert that can settle this ongoing dispute between Christian sects, but I do see my own problems here with this verse.


The first part of this verse clearly speaks of the son of man **COMING IN HIS KINGDOM**.

It sure implies that he would not only **COME** ----from somewhere else, but would bring his kingdom with him. I can't come to you if I'm already with you, now can I?

Does saying he would 'COME in his kingdom' make sense if Jesus meant he would show a glimpse of his kingdom to three of his disciples on top of some mountain?
It sure seems that is all he did....give a glimpse of this grand kingdom.
If we assume this 'son of man' kingdom came at that very moment to earth (but left again for some odd reason), then the kingdom CAME TO JESUS from heaven, or elsewhere perhaps.

If Jesus was already on the earth mountain and the kingdom came to him and his disciples, then how do some get the idea that Jesus had come **IN** his kingdom to earth, for the text that follows this?
That would imply that he was with his kingdom (somewhere else) but yet brought the kingdom down to earth WITH HIM. Does this mean Jesus was in two places at the same time or what?

It does say later on that God spoke from the clouds above, but that leads to more confusion about Jesus and God being one substance, but yet being in two different places simultaneously .
Neat magic trick, I must say, if this is the case here.

It seems to me the meaning of this transfiguration text, was to SHOW the disciples that Jesus was something more than a mere human. In other words, to show his 'true colors' as we say today.

Also, we read of Moses and Elias talking to the disciples here. It says they 'appeared', but doesn't say FROM WHERE, so we have to assume they came from heaven (in this traveling kingdom), as we know both of them died long before this event took place and we can assume they did go to heaven and not hell.

So what we learn here is that it's possible for the kingdom of god to come visit an earthly mountain top, and bring with it some of the famous bible folks who were in this kingdom.....as well as bringing Jesus to Jesus [huh]

I'm thinking this kingdom isn't very large then, so just how many believers throughout history and the future, will be able to fit inside such a compact sized heavenly kingdom?
It had to be fairly small to fit only on a mountain top and not be visible to all the folks down from the mountain top....right?
I mean, it doesn't say that anyone else saw this kingdom and in fact Jesus tells them to keep what they saw a big secret....shhhhhhhhhhh.


I think whoever wrote this verse did a darn poor job of getting their message across to the reader. The verse in the bible is written in a manner to imply that all the thoughts here are connected together, however, this could have easily been a mistake of the translators long ago, to have connected the 'coming in his kingdom' to the mountain top transfiguration.

It actually makes more logical sense to be two different ideas, than a connected one.

For the above reasons I have shown, I can't see how the idea of showing the disciples a glimpse of his kingdom and two dead hero's of the bible, ties into the son of god COMING in his kingdom at that very moment.
It makes far more sense that Jesus wanted to show them he was more than human and that he could let them talk to dead people. It also makes more sense that he meant he would come back with his kingdom later on, mostly because this kingdom didn't hang around long, but also because Jesus said he would come IN the kingdom, but yet didn't.

While god does speak from a mere earthly cloud, nowhere do I see any reference as to what this kingdom might have looked like. Surely the disciples must have seen a kingdom if it was really brought down to earth, yet they are terribly silent about what such a kingdom might look like....as if the rest of us humans would have no desire to know such a thing....go figure. Gosh, could folks back then have really lacked such natural human curiosity?

While I don't like taking sides between Fundies and Catholics, I have to admit it sure seems the evidence is on the side of the fundies for this one. The idea of coming in his kingdom makes more sense as a separate topic, rather than connected to this peek at the kingdom and the true colors of this 'man' Jesus.

Of course, this whole discussion is academic, because as we all know, this is nothing but a fable told by sheep herders and fishermen.

I had to say something, only because this dispute is evidence that the bible is just not the clear word of god it would have to be, if god had actually written it, even remotely.

Anyone have more ideas here?


AtheistToothFairy

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous, either register or click the "other" radio button and type in a consistent pseudonym. Otherwise your posts may all be deleted.

Thanks.

WM

Fred said...

Luke 9,27 and Mark 9,1 do not talk of Jesus coming, they speak of seeing the kingdom of God, which they did. The Father is in heaven and so are Moses and Elijah, so they did see, albeit a glimpse, of God’s kingdom. God’s kingdom is in the spirit world, we must not try to comprehend with our worldly constraints. I don’t understand why you would view God’s kingdom as this tiny little space at the top of a mountain? You should try to release the limitations of time and space and realize, quite simply, that indeed they did see God’s kingdom. Three Gospel writers attest to it. The presence of these dead prophets, followed by God’s voice emanating from a cloud should suffice in confirming Jesus’ prophecy.

Matthew 16,28, as you say, does indicate that they will see Jesus coming in his kingdom. In my opinion, this simply attests to the mystery of the holy trinity. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are one. They did see the cloud coming, and then heard the voice of the Father. Through the mystery of the holy trinity, they did see the Son of Man, Jesus, coming.

Luke 9
27 Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Matthew 16
28 Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 9
1 He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power."
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves. And he was transfigured before them,
3 and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.
5 Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, "Rabbi, it is good that we are here! Let us make three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
6 He hardly knew what to say, they were so terrified.
7 Then a cloud came, casting a shadow over them; then from the cloud came a voice, "This is my beloved Son. Listen to him."
8 Suddenly, looking around, they no longer saw anyone but Jesus alone with them.
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them not to relate what they had seen to anyone, except when the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what rising from the dead meant.

stronger now said...

Right said fred.

O.k. Why are we supposed to take what the bible says as authoritative?

Ohh! Because it says We should! Well!

That makes all the difference now. Doesn't it?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Fred,

Your additional information just adds to my opinion of God's exclusive-sacred-handbook for human usage, being as confusing as a translated-into-english instruction manual for some cheap imported camera.

Let me guess, God made the bible so hard to understand, just so only someone with his special Holy GHOST inside them, could read between it's lines to figure out what it really means to say.

Heaven forbid, it should make sense to all of the human race, so everyone could get the important messages without needing some Spiritual "Rosetta Stone".

Yeah I know, this is never a problem for Christians, that is, until they bicker between themselves and then for some reason this Holy Ghost gives out **contradictory** information.
I think the holy ghost must be playing favorites here, or SOMETHING.

Don't you think such a powerful CARING god would have made a sequel, or at least a revision to this confusing document by now?

How about writing it in a few languages this time, so all earthlings can have a shot at reading it.
Heck, most instructions we get with purchased products today, come with a multi-language book.

Doesn't he know how confused all his followers have become over his handbook?

Perhaps god is out to lunch....a really LONG LONG lunch that is.
God is a very busy god, don't you know.
Maybe if we all say a simultaneous prayer together, he'll consider this important request of mine....whatcha think?


Anyway, let's get a little serious now and take a look at your latest enlightenment of this issue, shall we.........




Fred said...

Luke 9,27 and Mark 9,1 do not talk of Jesus coming, they speak of seeing the kingdom of God, which they did. The Father is in heaven and so are Moses and Elijah, so they did see, albeit a glimpse, of God’s kingdom. God’s kingdom is in the spirit world, we must not try to comprehend with our worldly constraints.

~~~ I agree that this is all Luke says, that they would SEE the kingdom, but Mark says a bit more and writes.. "until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power".

Not for nothing, but using my earthly brain here of language usage, doesn't this imply that this kingdom would have 'come in power' before they died.
Meaning, the kingdom would have COME INTO POWER, like a ruler comes into power over a nation.
Surely you don't take this to mean that the kingdom had no power of it's own, until these humans were allowed to SEE it come down from heaven, right.

You also say this kingdom that came to earth, was of the spirit world and could only be seen by those god permitted to see it. Okay, let's assume that is correct for a moment. Then tell me why the need for a cloud for God's voice to emanate from then?
If they were looking INTO the spirit world of this magical kingdom, then surely then would have been viewing something of that spirit world, so where is the need for a cloud of earthy matter for god to speak from?

Either god transformed the kingdom into something physical they could see, along with the earth cloud, or he made their eye's able to see into the spirit world for a brief time.
If the kingdom was made physical, then my previous remark about others being able to see it might be true then.
If their eye's were changed into spirit-seeing eye's, or they themselves were transported up into the floating kingdom, then we again have no use for any earthly cloud use.

This to me is yet again enough of a challenge to make the story unbelievable.



Fred said:

I don’t understand why you would view God’s kingdom as this tiny little space at the top of a mountain? You should try to release the limitations of time and space and realize, quite simply, that indeed they did see God’s kingdom. Three Gospel writers attest to it. The presence of these dead prophets, followed by God’s voice emanating from a cloud should suffice in confirming Jesus’ prophecy.

~~~First off, the fact that three writers said so, really doesn't mean much, as when you study bible history and realize that the later writers simply stole from the earlier writers.
To 'borrow' from someone else's story and re-tell it, is the stuff of urban legends and how they form.

Also, it wasn't like we have first-hand written stories that were written by the disciples, that actually were suppose to have seen this kingdom with Jesus. You do realize all these bible writers all came after Paul (Saul) and the gospels were written at least 70 years after Jesus paid his visit....some as late as the later part of the 2nd century in fact.



Fred said:

Matthew 16,28, as you say, does indicate that they will see Jesus coming in his kingdom. In my opinion, this simply attests to the mystery of the holy trinity. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are one. They did see the cloud coming, and then heard the voice of the Father. Through the mystery of the holy trinity, they did see the Son of Man, Jesus, coming.

~~~First you tell us that this kingdom was all spiritual in nature and now you infer here that it must have been hiding inside (or above perhaps) that very visible cloud.
Again, I have to wonder why we need this mixture of spirit stuff and earthly visible clouds, in order to perform this holy trick.
I'm sure you'll come up with some oddball explanation to account for such a thing, won't you.

As far as this trinity thing goes........

Yes I was taught the same obscure theology when I was growing up, and it's just as incomprehensible now as it was when I was a boy.

Think about this.......Not only do we have to have faith that this all powerful god existed throughout all time and space, that he was powerful enough to create this vast universe and all it's life forms, but we now are suppose to believe that it's not just ONE god that magically came from nothing, but now we have THREE that came from nothing, but yet are still one in nature.

I still would like to know if they are all part of the same god being, then how does one part reduce itself to become a mindless fetus. Where did the POWER of that being go when he was a helpless human....Did the main god like bottle it up and save it for later or what.

Doesn't this imply if such a drastic separation could occur, that these THREE god's aren't really all that connected to each other. If that's the case, why do we require three gods and not just one.
Can't one all powerful god be enough to control his created universe. Does he need assistance because he's too busy....Oops, that's right, god is all powerful and therefore could never be TOO BUSY.
Don't you see something very wrong here, like most of do?


I can actually get you the answer to why we have THREE parts to your god, but you won't like the answer, as it comes from a part of history that has nothing to do with your bible, but was actually stolen from another culture by your trusted bible writers.

Of course, we have the more common sense answer to why there is a trinity.
If God was only a one part super hero, then if he were to take the form of a mindless fetus/infant, how would he at the same time stay in charge of the universe.
How do we fix this obvious problem.......Simple, we create a three part god....There, problem solved.

I think these bible writers might get jobs today as scifi writers for a cool tv show.


"7 Then a cloud came, casting a shadow over them; then from the cloud came a voice, "This is my beloved Son. Listen to him." "

~~Ahhh, so the cloud had to be physical as I suspected, because it cast a shadow onto them. Mind you, a shadow is caused by the very physical sun-light being obscured and sure wouldn't have that effect on something of the spirit world.

Then god's voice comes FROM THE physical cloud.
Why didn't it come from the spirit kingdom, I want to ask you?


As I said earlier, where do we read in the bible, of what they saw of this spiritual kingdom.
I have seen nothing so far that shows they saw anything but a cloud, a shadow cast by the cloud, two dead men and heard a voice come from the cloud.

Why didn't god show himself to them at this point, considering they had spiritual eyeballs that could see this kingdom that no one else around that mountain could see with normal human eyeballs.
Don't even try to tell me that humans can't see god's face without dying, because there a several instances in the bible where god does this very thing with men.
Not to mention, all things are possible with god, so I'm sure he could have made himself into something safe for humans to SEE without them getting damaged.


10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what rising from the dead meant.

~~~ Don't you wonder why Jesus insisted on this being made into a huge secret.
If he was okay with showing all these miracles to mortals, and claiming he was the son of god, why the big secrecy about his chosen one's being allowed to see the LITTLE they got to see here.
It wasn't like they saw some top-secret things inside this kingdom and would tell all of mankind all about them.

I also wonder if Jesus told them to keep it a secret, did he mention for how long to keep this big secret.
It wasn't that long later on that Jesus died and the word got out about (I'm assuming) this secret visit of god's kingdom.
Did jesus tell them after he came back from the dead, that it was okay to spill their guts about this huge secret. If so, where would I read that?
If not, then what made them feel it was okay to tell a few folks about it, such that decades later someone writing these stories knew about it.
Let me guess, god came back way later and told the writers the story, so they could write it down, because by then it was okay for us mortals to know his kingdom had made a SHORT visit to earth, via some EARTH CLOUD.

Don't you see how ridiculous this whole story is????


I really have to wonder if you would buy such miracle stories from the other many religions that have existed throughout time. I bet you wouldn't, yet you see no problem with this one, like the rest of us here do.

What makes you think this christian god is so special, compared to the many others you could pick from.
What makes you think that the catholics have the only Rosetta Stone to decipher the verses of this obscure, contradictory, Word of .......NOTHING.


One last thing.......

Why hasn't god felt that no other humans since christ's day, were worthy enough to give a sneak-peek at this special kingdom of his. Why hasn't anyone been allowed to visit with Moses since those days.

I really want to ask Moses about how to turn my staff into a cool snake and back again, so put a good word in for me, ok. Imagine the audience I could get with such a trick......better than Geller and his bending spoons for sure...hahah




AtheistToothFairy

Fred said...

ATF asked: "Did jesus tell them after he came back from the dead, that it was okay to spill their guts about this huge secret."

Yes Jesus did in:
Mark 9
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them not to relate what they had seen to anyone, except when the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

ATF asked: "Why hasn't god felt that no other humans since christ's day, were worthy enough to give a sneak-peek at this special kingdom of his."

He has done so in the way of various revelations to those that have been canonized as Saints. If you read their testimonies, you'll get all the extra revelation to satisfy your questions. I think that there's enough revelations in any given generation to satisfy any individual that seeks to find the truth.

ATF asked: "Not to mention, all things are possible with god, so I'm sure he could have made himself into something safe for humans to SEE without them getting damaged."

Some things will likely always be a mystery. We, humans, in our state have trouble understanding why God couldn't simply appear to us. I don't understand why either but certain things wouldn't be mysteries is we understood everything. Maybe it would be a lie if God, the Father, revealed himself in anything else but his full glory? He is holy after all and lying isn't an option for Him.
All I know is that there's more than enough proof to satisfy my faith.

With regards to the Trinity, I wonder if the fact that they are One relates to their wills being One. They are indeed seperate, yet they are One. If we define our existence, doesn't our personal wills come to the foreground of what most of us would use to define our existence? If God simply "is" or as He says "I Am", then He simply exists. His will is the manifestation of His existence why couldn't He present His existence in three forms, all still completely and perfectly in line with His will. In other words, they; Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Him, the one true God. ?

Maybe when we die and hopefully are accepted to be with Him in heaven, we'll be one with Him is some mysterious way? Maybe, unlike the Trinity, our wills won't be His will but certainly our wills will never be in conflict with His will, otherwise we won't be in heaven. We'll still have our own personal wills (or our personal existences) but their will never be a desire to act against God's will, temptation will no longer exist. ?

Take care and thanks for the conversation,
Fred

boomSLANG said...

Fred: I think that there's enough revelations in any given generation to satisfy any individual that seeks to find the truth.

No sir, I'm sorry, but "revelation" is NOT satisfactory for answering life's greatest questions. If my mechanic "reveals" to me that I need new spark plugs, that's one thing--he may be right, he may be trying to make the sale--but it's a trivial matter, either way, when compared to how and why the universe came into being, and where we came from, and where we're going, if anywhere at all.

Furthermore, if "revelation" reveals "Truth", then Moromonism and Islam are "true", too, to those who have had those respective philosophies "revealed" to them.

So, 'care to make the distinction between true "revelation" and false "revelation"?...but yet, obviously NOT using "revelation" as your "theory"? Listening.

Fred: Some things will likely always be a mystery.

Rain and lightening were a "mystery" to primitive man. In their ignorance, they attributed these occurances in nature to a "super-natural" raingod. We know differently now. It's not a "mystery"; it's not a "raingod"; it's not magic.....it's nature. And it's apparently human nature to invent non-existent beings in our minds in an attempt to "explain" life's "mysteries". Although, it appears we now need to invent a separate super-duper "God" just to "explain" what can't be explained about biblegod.

I don't understand, though--if it's "okay" to let "God" be a "mystery", why isn't okay to let "nature" be a "mystery". Would any Theist like to explain? Thanks in advance.

computer said...

jc samuel said: Every time I read or hear a statement like this my blood boils. Let's follow the logic, shall we?

1. Anyone who is raped was raped because they wanted to be raped.
2. Anyone who is killed was killed because they wanted to be killed.
3. Anyone who has cancer has cancer because they wanted to have cancer.
4. Anyone who is blind is blind because they wanted to be blind.
5. Anyone who is tortured was tortured because they wanted to be tortured.

That is logic wrongly applied. It would be more accurately stated that it is like being asked to marry someone. You can say yes or no. Yes to God means united with Him forver (Heaven) saying No means complete seperation (Hell). Every example you offered is of a situation that was wrongly forced on someone which is the exact opposite. So you can be comforted you cant be forced to marry God but everyone will be asked and I can imagine very few people saying no to the person who truly loves them and they have been waiting to love all their lives. That relationship can begin now just say yes.

computer said...

lynn asked where the Christians went. Sorry it was the weekend.

computer said...

anonymous wrote: To be a "True Christian" you must also be recognized as a "True Saint" such as Saint Father Kolbe

Thats not exactly correct. To be a true Christian you basically just need to follow Jesus. Saints like Maximillian Kolbe are those who witness through the stories of their lives to the power of how God can stregthn and change our lives once He is invited in to become more like Jesus. Saints show through there struggles that God is faithful till the end. God loves you as you are now and will accept you where you are at you dont have to become perfect to be worthy of His love. Romans 5:6-8 Christ arrives right on time to make this happen. He didn't, and doesn't, wait for us to get ready. He presented himself for this sacrificial death when we were far too weak and rebellious to do anything to get ourselves ready. And even if we hadn't been so weak, we wouldn't have known what to do anyway. We can understand someone dying for a person worth dying for, and we can understand how someone good and noble could inspire us to selfless sacrifice. But God put his love on the line for us by offering his Son in sacrificial death while we were of no use whatever to him.

Iago said...

"Maybe it would be a lie if God, the Father, revealed himself in anything else but his full glory? He is holy after all and lying isn't an option for Him."

By the previous statement God isn't omnipotent.

Jeremiah 20:6-7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie


According to the Bible God lies, therefore he isn't holy.

boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...

"Computer": That[the analogies presented] is logic wrongly applied. It would be more accurately stated that it is like being asked to marry someone. You can say yes or no. Yes to God means united with Him forver (Heaven) saying No means complete seperation (Hell).

Hmmm, should we be shocked that the author of the above fails to get the point; that he/she fails to grasp the difference between a "free choice", and nothing less than coersion/manipulation? Nah.

Dear "Computer"(Marc?),

In order for your "marriage" analogy to be accurately analogous with the "heaven or hell?" axiom, you'd have to incinerate the person who declines the wedding proposal, and reward the one who accepts.

Now, are you seriously that impenetrably ignorant that you refuse to see the point? If "Heaven or Hell?" was a clear-cut free choice, there would be no punishment/no reward. Duh?

"Computer": So you can be comforted you cant be forced to marry God but everyone will be asked and I can imagine very few people saying no to the person who truly loves them and they have been waiting to love all their lives.

If your alleged "God" allegedly "truly loves" me, then he/she/it will love me regardless of whether I love he/she/it back, or not. Moreover, surely you won't tell me that a "perfect" being NEEDS to be loved in the first place, right?---that sounds more in line with a sickly little puppy, or something. Aaaarf?

"Computer": That relationship[with an invisible mythological figure] can begin now just say yes.

Sure, if you like monologues.

boom'(fighting legendary thinking one day at a time)

Anonymous said...

After reading all the posts above, it strikes me that everyone is forgeting one little point: God already knows who really loves him and has no need of waiting for someone to choose to serve him or not. If he really existed, that is! The perfect god would have no needs of any kind, our love included. End of story!? Jim Earl

computer said...

God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

boomSLANG said...

"Computer"(quite possibly Marc) tries:

God,[presuppositional; what "God"?] infinitely perfect and blessed in himself,["perfect" beings don't need things; nor do they get "jealous", "angry", "vindictive", or exhibit any other emotions that are less than "perfect"] in a plan of sheer goodness[creating "Hell" and allowing a "Devil" to exist, isn't "sheer goodness"] freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life.["to make him" = TO FORCE him] For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man.[but never "close" enough to be evident that "God" exists] He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength.[and if man doesn't accept and/or is skeptical, "God" tortures him eternally] He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church.[buildings full of delusional hypocrites] To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come,[to a "timeless" being, the "fullness of time" never comes] God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour.["God" sent himself, yet "God" is nowhere to be found] In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.[and once more, if you don't accept this "offer", "God" will "unadopt" you, and incinerate you mercilessly until the end of time]

Note: It's easy enough to pick out the logic VS the illogical dogmatic blather that we're all accustomed to in the above paragraph, nonetheless, I put the logic in brackets for the reader's convenience.

computer said...

boomslang: I dont know who marc is. Your understanding is a bit off on a few points and I will try and address them tomorrow. Its time to leave work. Have a good evening:-)

.:webmaster:. said...

Computer, we are (most of us) ex-Christians. Many of us have spent decades in Christianity, and nothing you are writing is anything more than "Polly want a cracker" parroting. In short, you're wasting your time.

However, here's a question for you: How do you know that any of what you believe is true?

Do you even know?

boomSLANG said...

"Computer"(not Marc, but equally impenetrable) said: Your understanding is a bit off on a few points and I will try and address them tomorrow.

Listen very carefully: If you don't bring objective evidence to the table that a "God" exists, and that this deity is none other than the Christian biblegod, then please, don't waste either of our time. Thanks.

Disclaimer: The Holy bible will NOT be accepted as "objective evidence"...that is, unless you'll accept the Holy Qur'an as evidence that "Allah" is the One True God.

computer said...

boomslang concerning: in a plan of sheer goodness, boomslang wrote:[creating "Hell" and allowing a "Devil" to exist, isn't "sheer goodness"] my response: Hell was not created by God Hell but is created by any person when we die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
concerning: freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life.boomslang wrote:["to make him" = TO FORCE him] my response: You dont believe in God now. How is then you are forced? You are actually free for all eternity to not be with God its completely up to you.

computer said...

webmaster asked: However, here's a question for you: How do you know that any of what you believe is true?

Because I have met God.

.:webmaster:. said...

You have?!

How exciting. Please tell us about that meeting. What did she look like? Was she wearing perfume? Is her skin milky smooth?

Seriously, tell us all about this meeting.

Note: What was the title of this article again?

boomSLANG said...

LMAO!! Jimminey christmas! You've "met God", have ya? Good gracious! Well, I too, am curious to get a profile. Yes, please give a detailed physical description of what "God" looks like/sounds like..i.e..5'11"?..or 11'5"? Soprano voice like Pee-Wee Herman?..or baritone, like James Earl Jones? Blonde?...or dark? Beard?...or clean-shaven? And how do you know it was "Jesus", and not Poseiden?...was he wearing a WWID T-shirt? lol! Unreal!(pun intended)

stronger now said...

Computer,

Did he talk about me? What did he say? Was he wearing his white robe with gold belt or the little red number with lace?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Fred said....

ATF asked: "Did Jesus tell them after he came back from the dead, that it was okay to spill their guts about this huge secret."

Yes Jesus did in:
Mark 9
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them not to relate what they had seen to anyone, except when the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

----------------
Fred,

Okay 'guys' we have to give Fred ONE point (and only one) here, as he knew something I forgot about this piece of scripture (and it seems no one else pointed it out here either...darn).

So Fred, I grant you one point for your cause.


However, the fact that he told these disciples that it was okay to let out his big transfiguration secret after he died and came back to life, doesn't really solve the handful of other problems we discussed on this topic.

In doing further research about the 2nd coming meaning of these lines, versus the transfiguration idea instead, I see little evidence to support your idea that this transfiguration trick fulfilled god's "kingdom coming" to earth as Jesus predicted 6 days previous.

This article from the Infidels.Org site makes a solid argument that Jesus did NOT mean to fulfill the kingdom coming prophesy when he showed them a glimpse of his kingdom from that mountain top.

See... http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/3/023basic.html

As the author points out, as one of the conditions of this prophecy, angels were suppose to come along with that kingdom, and no angels are mentioned in related scripture of this incident.

Read the article, then perhaps you might realize that Jesus words on this issue, not only didn't refer to the transfiguration, but also greatly implied he should have returned with his kingdom for REAL, a very very very long time ago!!!


Here is a small piece of the article to wet your whistle:

"Now if the fulfillment of Jesus's promise to his audience had come only six days later, that would mean that Jesus had, in effect, said, "Verily, I say to you, there are some standing here who will still be alive six days from now to see the son of man coming in his kingdom." That meaning would be completely contrary to what was obviously Jesus's intention, to warn his audience that his return was so imminent and certain that it would happen when some in the audience were still alive. If, however, he meant that some would see him coming in his kingdom just six days later, there would be nothing at all remarkable about that, because almost everyone hearing him could have been expected to live six more days."




Why then Fred, are we all still waiting for this glorious return?

All of this continued controversy about God's divine words, continues to prove it was written by many authors, by human minds alone and not inspired by the hand of your god.

Nothing is clear about the bible, and some folks idea that one get this Magic Rosetta Stone pirit to understand it's hidden meanings, doesn't hold any water either, as is evident by so many Christian sects who claim to have the 'key' in the very same spiritual manner.

Someone is wrong here Fred.........I wonder who it could be, hmmm
Could it be the Christians....ALL the christians.....might be huh



AtheistToothFairy

Bill said...
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Bill said...

Thanks for all the feedback.