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8/11/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Does God Heal His Own Human Leaders?

By AtheistToothFairy

We hear much from Christians about how god takes cares of his own flock, especially when it comes to something like god healing the sick via prayer. These Christians insist that praying for someone can at least help abate their disease (despite many non-biased studies to the contrary). They also tell us that praying even for ourselves when we are sick, will also inspire god to intervene on our own behalf.

I haven't met a Christian yet that would deny this 'quality' of god, as his handbook clearly states this as a given Christian benefit. So, let us now assume that the bible god really does exists and that he really is suppose to answer our request for a healing (even if only conditionally).

Would it then not make perfect sense that he would also take care of his human religious leaders?

Surely if any run-of-the-mill believer can have god help them through this praying ritual, for either themselves or others, then it wouldn't make very much sense that god would turn his back on the very religious leaders who are teaching the world of his divine word. I think we can agree on this assumption?

I have noticed that on this site, there have been a few discussions about the mental illnesses of believers and some folks who believe god helped them in this area. Of course, proclaiming someone cured of some mental illness is much more subjective than some more obvious physical illness would be. Thus, I don't feel we can use cures of mental illness as a measuring stick to say whether god has intervened or not. So for the sake of argument, let's put aside the mental illness factors and use something that is easier to have 'metrics' for... human physical illness.

In searching for any discussions on this site about how well god is taking care of his own leaders in their physical health, I was unable to find any material in the archives about this important aspect of god's benefits. I have also searched the web for any studies that would show a health/cure comparison between religious leaders of the earth, versus god's average believers, versus non-believers (not to mention hard core atheist). Alas, it seems no information is available to the public on the web on this
topic and unless someone out there can point me to some legit studies, then we'll have to base our conclusions on hearsay evidence from those commenting on this.

Throughout my life I have known, either directly or indirectly, many religious leaders from local priest and ministers, right up to some very famous religious leaders we read about in the news. How many of these leaders do you suppose have been cured by god for some ailment they had. One would initially assume that of course god heals such faithful important leaders, but does he really. Does the evidence meet this assumption. Let's try and discover this now.

We have all watched various Catholic Pope's lose their health and eventually die and be replaced by the next Pope. If one is catholic, then one must believe that the Pope is god's right hand man down here on earth, yet, god let each Pope's health fail him until each died. I'm not even talking about instances where a sudden illness quickly took their lives, for in that case one could assume that god was just preparing the Pope to meet-his-maker, etc. No, I'm talking about where a Pope's health continued to degrade month after month, year after year, reaching the point where they couldn't really even do god's important work anymore. Did god step in and give his right-hand-man at least part of his health back, at least enough vitality so he could function as god's spokesman? No? WHY NOT?

If one is not catholic, then it's easy to write this mystery off by saying the Pope isn't of the correct biblical faith. Some even assume a Pope will be the Anti-Christ and such a Pope would surely not merit god's healing actions. If a former Pope is deceased, I think we can safely assume he wasn't this Anti-Christ, but yet the question remains, did god heal any of these dead Pope's, at any time? Because we can't use only Pope's in our quest to find an answer, we must now look beyond just the Pope's of our history and take a look at other religious leaders, including our own local leaders.

So, let's pick two fairly famous leaders and see how well god heals them when their bodies start to fail them.

Billy Graham:

Surely this well known religious leader had 'enough' right about god's word to warrant god's attention in fixing his health problems, yet we easily find this about Mister Graham on the web:
"Graham said that his planned retirement was due to his failing health. He has suffered from Parkinson's disease for about 15 years, has had fluid on the brain, pneumonia, broken hips, and recently revealed that he is suffering from prostate cancer."

So for 15 years this man suffered with Parkinson's, yet god turned his back on this famous leader of his... WHY? I won't even go into the other health issues mentioned here, but you get the dismal picture, I'm sure.

God Squad:

For those not familiar with the God Squad, it is a religious question/answer column, run in newspapers, and is made up of a Rabbi and a devout Christian man named Thomas Hartman. These two men act as spokesmen for their god (Jewish and Christian), answering tough religious questions from their readers. Obviously, in the
world of religion, they are very important key figures and must have god's direct attention. Surely god would keep these important word-spreaders in tip-top health, no? Yet we read the following about the Christian half of this God Squad:

"Monsignor Thomas Hartman publicly announced he had Parkinson's disease in November of 2003"

I have followed the story of Thomas for long time now and I have seen nothing in the news media about his Parkinson's disease suddenly being cured, even though it's been almost 4 years since he was diagnosed with it.

When I ask various Christians why god hasn't felt the need to cure this important figure of religion, I'm told that god works in mysterious ways and that his battle with Parkinson's is actually part of the process of making him a 'better follower of the lord,' etc. Excuse me, but how exactly does such a method work. Can someone explain to me how leaving an important religious leader with some dreadful disease, will better enable him to spread that important doctrine of god? Surely this popular man had at least hundreds of Christians praying for him, yet his disease remains steadfast in him... WHY?

I've known many local priest and ministers throughout my lifetime. From my own perspective, they suffer health problems on par with the rest of the general population. More so, I've never seen any such local leader cured of some serious long-term illness by god. They suffer along just like any other person does when they contract such illnesses. Prayers from their congregations seem to fall on god's deaf ears. So, just like the more famous leaders, these local leaders also seem to receive no healing benefit from their almighty god.

Isn't it odd that all these Christians continue to believe in the power of faith healing when none of their great leaders ever shows evidence of being healed by this god person. If our religious leaders can't expect to be healed by this god, then I ask you, what chance do the rest of the believers in god have with their own illness. In the end, all the studies done conclude there is zero evidence that faith healing works for anyone. Obviously that conclusion seems to apply to even our great religious leaders as well.

So tell me, Christians: Why can't we expect to be healed of our diseases if god assures us he will answer such prayers? Why does he seem to ignore even the most devout and well known religious leaders of earth?

Where is your god hiding? Why does he turn his back on healing even his own flock?

We can't see the heaven 'we' hope to enter one day from this planet earth, yet we are told to believe in it. We can't detect hell's fire from where we live, yet we are told to greatly fear it. God never makes himself visible to us mere mortals, so wouldn't it make much sense for god to provide a tad bit of evidence of himself, by at least showing us he can heal his own great leaders of this planet? Wouldn't it make "god-sense" to heal such leaders and at the same time give the rest of us a reason other than blind faith, to believe in such a caring powerful god.

What's wrong with this picture, I ask everyone?

Personally, I think the artist of this sad picture being painted here, just never has existed, other than in the minds of those wanting to believe such comforting myths.

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use .

23 comments:

Left of Center said...

The answer to prayer is alwase yes, no, and wait. of course the religious can always cite tales of miraculous healing and can always come up with good reasons why god might have allowed an illness to progress. Whatever the reason the results always seem to fall into into acceptable statistical parameters.

Audie said...

I've always wondered why god would let them get sick in the first place, thus needing to be healed. I could see if it was to prove his healing power, but when the healing doesn't come...

Robert W. said...

It's funny how in the 4 or 5 thousand years of human history, people still believe that there are those of us who are touched by God(s). From the god-kings of Mesopotamia to the televangelists of modern America, times really haven't changed overly much.

If anyone has read the book of Job in the old testament, the lesson is learned that "YES" God causes illnesses; he also cures them. The question "Why?" when asked by Job is answered like this by the big guy: "Shut up, mortal, I am God and you are not!"

dano said...

I've always wondered why God didn't make people who could live as long as they wanted to, and why did God create disease in the first place?

It would make more sense for people to live as long as they wanted, getting stronger and wiser all the time.

If God needed company, that kind of person should be more to his liking.

If they didn't measure up, he could cause them to never have happened, in the blink of his eye.

Theoretically, there is nothing God can't do, right!
Dan, Agnostic

Aspentroll said...

And what about the millions and millions of people who have lost their limbs in one way or another?

Anybody out there know of anyone who prayed for his limb(s)to grow back so he/she could be normal again? And did it happen?

I think it would be front page news world wide so don't bother to research this idea.

Ryan Scott said...

God is a jerk.

Lorena said...

I wish someone would conduct a study of mortality rates by age, type of illness, and propensity to disease comparing believers and non-believers. Maybe there is a study already.

My bet is that Christians--leaders or not--will show more chances of catching terminal illnesses that non-believers.

All that repression they submit themselves to and the hypocrisy and the lying catches up with them.

When I was a Christian I used to wonder why so many church goers died of cancer.

If bible god really healed people, churches wouldn't need a hospital-visitation ministry.

At the very least, Christians get sick and die at the same rate as the rest of us.

Bob said...

Some years ago a local preacher wrote a letter to the editor stating that suffering, sickness and death was god's way of letting us know he was present! By responding to that absurd letter was what led me to our local atheist organization.
I have noticed that in all the claimed 'miracles' not one of them is the regrowth of a missing limb. This begs the question:"Can god make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?". ( I love to present this question to my fundy friends. Some have responded that god can do what he wants! Ha ha ha)
Of one thing I am certain:..."As long as man has gods, man will make war" (My god can lick your god, ad infinitem, ad nausium)

AtheistToothFairy said...

Thanks to everyone that posted so far.

**I'm hoping we see even more comments on this subject**


Left of Center said... "The answer to prayer is alwase yes, no, and wait. of course the religious can always cite tales of miraculous healing"

Left,
Prayer: I think one could do just as well by worshipping one of those toy magic-8-balls, where you shake it up and wait for the divine answer to appear in the little window.
In fact, the ball will give you more possibilities than yes, no and wait....LOL.

I have read MANY articles on the subject of faith healing's and faith healers.
Not only doesn't faith healing ever work, but those who put their faith in the charlatans who deceive these gullable folks (for money or glory), delay themselves from seeking valid medical attention and sometimes such a delay will end in death.
I have not seen even one VALID study on faith healing that shows it made a difference, other than when the problem is physiological, which of course is again very subjective.
Alas, one can't argue with the folks who have faith in such practices as I've discovered time and time again, for such believers are stubborn in their beliefs and refuse to see any evidence to the contrary.
---

Audie said... "I've always wondered why god would let them get sick in the first place, thus needing to be healed. I could see if it was to prove his healing power, but when the healing doesn't come"

Audie,
I've heard apologist try and explain why god allows us to get sick. Most say it goes along with our 'free will' god affords us. That, and something about it teaching us some valuable (mysterious) lessons etc..

Even if we accept this premise, that still offers no explanation to why he NEVER cures even his own leaders. Wouldn't spreading god's word to so many, be of more importance than for a single leader to learn some mysterious 'lesson' by dealing with their own illness.....I would think so.
i.e. Wouldn't 'saving' dozens or thousands of humans by teaching them about this savior Jesus, be more valuable overall, than some lesson learned by ONE such leader.

Robert W. said...
"From the god-kings of Mesopotamia to the televangelists of modern America, times really haven't changed overly much"

This just goes along with a previous post I made about human nature, although that one was directed at sin. Human nature doesn't really change over the centuries. No matter how much we seem to gain in knowledge and technology, that basic desire to believe in something beyond the tangible persist. Our early ancestors looked to the stars and planets for answers to life's mysteries. While most today aren't gullible enough to believe that the stars and planets direct our lives (I did say MOST here), we instead put our faith in many other supernatural things that give us hope to fix our all too human problems.

Frankly, I don't think that many of us humans are cozy with the idea that our fate is in our own hands and nothing 'out there' is going to help us. Thus, most humans will continue to find supernatural things to put their faith in, for having nothing beyond ourselves to believe in; is just too frightening to most people.

---
Dano said,
"It would make more sense for people to live as long as they wanted, getting stronger and wiser all the time."

Dano,
A few years ago I read this extensive article on what would happen if science found a way to make us live to be several hundred years old.
The ramifications were tremendous!!!
It talked about various things like:

1. Working at your job until you retire at the age of say, 500. How many of us get bored of our present job's long before we can retire. Imagine having to work that same job for hundreds of years instead of a few decades. One could argue here that you could change occupations several times to stop the boredom.
The point though I wanted to make, is, how many of us consider this job and boredom problem when pondering such a long life span.

2. While the article sighted several other problems, the biggest problem was in the present population not dying away. If we were to continue to populate the earth at our present rate, we would quickly run out of both room and resources to sustain us.
Sure, god could transport some of us to a few cloned earths he would make, somewhere, but short of such miracle creations, we'd have no choice but to bring to a halt any new humans being created by us.
One might argue that god should have made the earth far larger, so it could accommodate a much larger/older population, but then we run into that darn increasing gravity problem that might crush us to death.

I often wonder when god is going to counter-command his ancient orders to "multiply and fill the earth". Umm, doesn't he understand we already met that quota of his?

Perhaps the reason we don't live so long and instead keep making new humans, is because heaven and hell were made a bit too large by god (oops) and he wants both of them filled to the brim.
To compensate for this ummm error, he needs billions upon billions of humans and not just a few 'million' long-lived but very wise humans.
After all, we already understand that this god gets very lonely in his empty heaven and has this 'need' for plenty of company for eternity.

So there you go Dano, the answer to why we live such short lives now is that god needs plenty of company up there, see? [g}

---
Aspentroll said...
"And what about the millions and millions of people who have lost their limbs in one way or another? Anybody out there know of anyone who prayed for his limb(s)to grow back so he/she could be normal again? And did it happen?"

Aspentroll,
I believe I in fact asked this very question not so long ago in some post.

I've also asked a few christian friends about this healing oversight.
While they greatly insist that god heals folks all the time, they can never explain why we have NEVER seen a miracle restoration of a leg or arm.
Given how many soldiers of recent, have lost limbs from IED's in Iraq, god has the perfect chance to show us his great powers in restoring at least ONE soldiers blown-off limb.

Ummm, GOD?
Could you maybe just ummm, restore just one christian soliders's limb so we might know you are really up there, somewhere.......God?......God??.....God?????????

No answer cometh.....oh well.
Maybe he's too busy making sure our side is winning this war.
After all, every Christian knows that god loves American Christians way more than those Muslims....or maybe not.

----
Lorena said... If bible god really healed people, churches wouldn't need a hospital-visitation ministry.

Lorena,

Exactly !!!

I've seen priest many times in hospitals, going from bed to bed, asking if the patient wants a prayer said for them or if they want to pray with the priest to god etc..
If this situation wasn't so sad to watch, it might be humorous.

What evidence do these comforting priests have, that going around praying for the sick in hospitals, actually has any physical cure benefits.
Sure, you might convince me that it gives some patients a bit of hope, an emotional need alone, but beyond the emotional satisfaction they might be rewarded with, I find it so sad that these believers (and priest) really think that god's hand will come touch them and make them heal faster etc.

If I were in such a hospital and a priest came with a prayer offer to me, I would say "no-thanks", but 'father', if you wish to debate your religion with me, that would make me feel more alive and perhaps help hasten my healing....LOL.
Hey, being in a hospital setting can be quite dreary and such a debate might liven things up a bit, no?



Bob said... Of one thing I am certain:..."As long as man has gods, man will make war" (My god can lick your god, ad infinitem, ad nausium)

Bob,

You couldn't be more correct here.

As we all know, the majority of wars in history were driven by religious convictions.
Each side believes god is supporting their cause, because they are right and the other side is of course, wrong.
Each victory is attributed to god helping one's own soldiers and each loss therefore, must just mean god was a ummm, bit busy.

I love that story in the old testament where god makes an excuse for his side losing a battle, because he couldn't fight down those darn iron chariots they enemy had going for them....LOL.
Perhaps god could make a trade for some better weapons, from some dead arm's dealer in hell by offering him a small remote space in his heaven?
Always looking to help out our god, ya know.


If we look back at even WWII, one see's catholics fighting, from both America and Germany.
Each was sure that god was on their side, that you can be sure about.
I think a lot of killing and destruction could have been avoided if this all powerful god just had written a little memo, stating which side he really was supporting during that war.
Something like........Hey, you Germans down there, listen up!!! Step---away---from --your--- weapons.
Now, go home and make-nice and maybe I'll stop my buddy Noah up here, from flooding your entire country with the excess water leftover from the year of my great flood.

See, just a tiny memo could have saved lots of lives, no?



AtheistToothFairy

Robert W. said...

AtheistToothFairy,

I like to have faith that, someday, human beings will be able to outgrow the religions of the past. A positive belief system is, to me, humanocentric and places the betterment and progression of the human race as a whole above all else. In other words, good old-fashioned humanism.

Earlier religions placed manlike deities at the apex of worship, but the simple truth is, "Man is the measure of all things." Equality and justice don't come from deities, at least none that I know of, but they are human concepts and ideals that humans haved died for as far back as Salamis and Thermopolaye and up on through the battles of the Second World War- in other words, humans have no need of outmoded religions with outmoded beliefs like servile submission to a capricious and wrathful God when they can articulate concepts like those contained in the Declaration of Independence, “...that all men are equated equal.”

xrayman said...

Atheist Tooth Fairy,

As I healthcare worker I read your post with great interest. I work at a large hospital where there is always a steady stream of clergy passing through, and praying for the sick, and I have taken care of many very ill patients who were members of the clergy.

That is a very great question that you pose. Why doesn't God keep his top spokesmen in grand health? We had a local minister die of Leukimea a few years back. Despite the fact he was blessed by God with a bone marrow donor, the disease still took his life. It was quite a sad story I followed in my local paper to see a husband and father suffer as he did, yet you would have thought with all the prayers, support, and being a direct liasion to God, death wouldn't have even been an option. Yet I had an uncle who was the biggest heathen asshole in the world and he lived to be 96.

I was wathcing one of those shows on TLC where they profiled a group of morbidly obese patients in a treatment facility. One in particular was this 500+ pound African American gentleman who could barely walk two steps without loosing his breath. I learned later in the show that this man was a minister. OH THE FUCKING IRONY !!!!!!!!!

xrayman said...

Oh and on a related note: One just might think that if there were a merciful God, a child not yet old enough to babble Ma Ma or Da Da, let alone commit a sin, would always be spared a dreadful disease like cancer yet I have seen far too many devastated mothers comforting their babies undergoing chemotherapy at my place of employment. It's something you never get used to.

ocean boy said...

Atheist Tooth Fairy, your are spot on..
having sat in church for approx 15 years and seen countless time people who have disabilities and handicaps plead for healing. I have never seen 1! physical healing actually take place ie a person in a wheel chair, a baby on the verge of death, a child with down syndrome or any number of people with a clear and visible desire for healing.

If we could aggregate the number christian years versus actual healings witnessed, i wonder what the graph might show, the figure might run as - 500 years vs 0 healings, 1,000 years vs 0 healings etc....

This website would possess quite a few years of long term of ex-xtians who have never witnessed a healing of the super-natural.

No-one i know has actually been when this healing has been claimed, the stories i hear have been 2nd hand, 3rd hand accounts of events. Never a 'real-time' experience

i 'll start the ball rolling by 15 years (15 serious years of xtian faith)

15 years vs 0 healing


best wishes to all
ocean boy

swabby429 said...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm

Not only does prayer NOT work, it can actually cause harm. See the article at the above link.

swabby

Thackerie said...

Atheist Tooth Fairy, your response to Dano about the over-populated earth that would result if human longevity were to be increased dramatically struck me because I just read a really dumb fundy quote on this topic this morning at the “fundies say the darnest things” website.

The quoted fundy said, "… I really doubt there will ever be an overpopulation because it's part of god's creation, if it appears that there's an overpopulation, the god or whoever made everything would then resize Earth a bit bigger to fill up for new people to live."

Ah, yes, the old inflatable globe theory, which supposes that all powerful, all-knowing god didn't foresee how much his creation would get out of hand and ignores how a enlarged earth would impact gravity and the planet’s orbit and destroy all life here. To think that people in the 21st century could think this way is both sad and hilarious at the same time.

Any way, if anyone wants to read how the non-fundies snark back, go here:

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?id=28078

dano said...

xrayman wrote:
"One in particular was this 500+ pound African American gentleman who could barely walk two steps without loosing his breath. I learned later in the show that this man was a minister. OH THE FUCKING IRONY !!!!!!!!!"


Dano:
Aren't they all reverends?
Dan, Agnostic

dano said...

AtheistToothFairy wrote:

"Perhaps the reason we don't live so long and instead keep making new humans, is because heaven and hell were made a bit too large by god (oops) and he wants both of them filled to the brim.
To compensate for this ummm error, he needs billions upon billions of humans and not just a few 'million' long-lived but very wise humans.
After all, we already understand that this god gets very lonely in his empty heaven and has this 'need' for plenty of company for eternity."

Dano:...
Bible God really does come across as a pathetic lonely tyrant doesn't he?

I hate to call him a "Fuckup," but what else can I think about someone who knows everything, and can do anything, and the best that he can come up with for someone to love him, are a bunch of primates, that just recently climbed down out of the trees.

Maybe if he hadn't murdered his son, or had a baby by some other guys girlfriend, or played so fast and loose with morality?

Dan,Agnostic

twincats said...

Ryan Scott said: "God is a jerk."

I agree, and I'd like to add:

His Plan(tm) is stupid.

Mary R. said...

atheisttoothfairy, what you said is true:

"Not only doesn't faith healing ever work, but those who put their faith in the charlatans who deceive these gullable folks (for money or glory), delay themselves from seeking valid medical attention and sometimes such a delay will end in death."

But I've known of many people that really believe that god (their creator?) is going to heal them. There's a case about a close friend of mine who died waiting for her god to "regenerate" her kidneys that had been damaged by a terminal illnes that she had. She was a diabetic. After she converted to Xtianity, started to believe what her pastor taught every Sunday out of the Xtian bible—god's promises. Also, her family (were Xtians too) persuaded her to not continue seeking medical treatment for it was like putting god to a test. They told her that "the creator" knew every single cell in her body so he/she/it could do anything to heal her, as there was nothing impossible for god.
After she died, they said she didn't have enough faith, and that was the reason why god didn't heal her.

Xtians way of thinking just make me sick!

mike said...

Why dont you know, all the healings are in Africa! We just have to go there for some reason.

I too have prayed for healing only to be ignored by God. Funny thing is my heart really wanted to live for him, but I think he does not care.

sillywhispers said...

Another person already posted a link regarding a study showing the failure of intercessory prayer.

Here's another:
http://www.sfms.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=2343&SECTION=Article_Archives

Over the years there have been many such studies. The result is clear, prayer has no effect on outcome.

Rick said...

Of course, the response I always get when I point out the failure of prayer is that prayer is just misunderstood - its a means for people to maintain a personal relationship with god, not to beg for favors. When I point at Mathew 17:20 (the whole mustard seed/moving mountain thing) I'm told I'm taking the scripture out of context.

Had this very argument with a catholic fellow on my blog. Ultimately it always ends with the claim of "out of context" or "you just don't understand". For god being around us at all times and eager to "meet a person half way" he sure hides and encodes his holy word alot.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Thank you all, for the feedback on "Does God Heal his own Human Leaders".
To those who commented, you provided some wonderful additions and examples to my own thoughts on the subject.


Robert W. wrote:
"I like to have faith that, someday, human beings will be able to outgrow the religions of the past."

Robert,
While I would like to believe humans overall would eventually learn to outgrow religions whom claim some form of god, or some global/universal mystical connection between the living, I can't see that happening anytime soon. Even if we remove god from the human equation, we are still left with the many woo-woo folks who believe in other supernatural things.
There is something about most human minds having a huge inherent need for something greater than ourselves, be that some god, some big-eyed aliens with large brains, or some cosmic connection between our 'souls' etc..
So I think we will always have a large part of the population that will latch onto something mystical to save them, from themselves.

---
xrayman wrote:
"We had a local minister die of Leukimea a few years back. Despite the fact he was blessed by God with a bone marrow donor, the disease still took his life"

Xray,
I'll bet you that the xtians in his church, claimed a miracle of prayer when the bone marrow donor showed up, yet when he died anyway later on, I'm sure they made some excuse that god found a greater purpose for him up in heaven and had to take him anyway, or something similar to that form of apologetic thinking.

Now if god is unchanging (as they claim), then why would this god give him a donor via answered prayer, to cure him and then a bit later appear to change his mind about saving this poor man?
Doesn't it make far more sense that no god answered those prayers and what really occurred here, is that 'chance' did what chance does in life. Sometimes we win over chance and sometimes we lose. Sometimes it's a mixture of both.

You said later:
"One just might think that if there were a merciful God, a child not yet old enough to babble Ma Ma or Da Da, let alone commit a sin, would always be spared a dreadful disease like cancer yet I have seen far too many devastated mothers comforting their babies undergoing chemotherapy"

Yes Xray, things like this have always made me question the workings of this supposed god being. I've heard the argument from an early age, that these children are 'chosen' children and thus god took them early in life.
Ummm, if this were true then why not take such 'good' souls before they were even born and forced to suffer such things, like the pangs of chemotherapy you sight here.
Obviously such very young children can't have had any 'lessons' learned on earth before they died, so what was to be gained by letting them be born, only to make them suffer before dying.

As a side note here.......Does god need babies in heaven or does he magically implant false memories into the minds of those living out a partial earthly life, and make them into an older age upon arrival at the pearly gates?
Perhaps he gives such babies to those very important god-virgins who wanted to get married (first) and have kids, but died too soon to reach that motherly goal.

Yeah, that would explain away the problem of innocent babies dying....Sure it would.
--------
ocean boy wrote:
"If we could aggregate the number christian years versus actual healings witnessed, i wonder what the graph might show, the figure might run as - 500 years vs 0 healings, 1,000 years vs 0 healings etc...."
"'ll start the ball rolling by 15 years (15 serious years of xtian faith)
15 years vs 0 healing "

Ocean,
I'd like to say we had many responses here to bolster our claim, but not many have added to our numbers, so far.
On the other hand, I haven't seen any xtians chiming in with any counter-proof to show magical healing's of leaders, that would prove us wrong either, so I have to assume our prayers-not-answered theory is doing quite well.
Nor have I seen any explanations from xtians to explain why their loving god is ignoring his own important leaders of earth.
Not to worry, we won't be hearing from them with any concrete evidence, for as we know, there is no xtian god to heal anyone.
-------
swabby429 wrote:
"Not only does prayer NOT work, it can actually cause harm. See the article at the above link."

Swabby,
Since I wrote this Rant, I've seen several prayer studies and the only one's that show any positive results were done by guess who.......Xtians. Gee, I wonder why, hmm
Any study done by an unbiased source resulted in nothing better than chance, or in this one case you sighted, they actually did worse.

Gosh, could it be god didn't answer their prayers but the devil intercepted them instead and fixed-their-wagons.
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Thackerie wrote:
"Ah, yes, the old inflatable globe theory, which supposes that all powerful, all-knowing god didn't foresee how much his creation would get out of hand and ignores how a enlarged earth would impact gravity and the planet’s orbit and destroy all life here"

Thackerie,
While I had considered the gravity of the problem (no pun intended), I hadn't considered what a larger earth would do to our present orbit around the..... Son of god...errrr, Sun of god.
(sorry about that, I get them confused ALL THE TIME, for some reason)

Obvioulsy the orbit would have to change and thus our climate would drastically change to.
Gosh, I wonder what happens to the orbit of the moon around earth, if we double the size of the earth, hmmm.
Of course Thackerie, god will make another one of his grand miracles to solve this major problem. The fact that he neglected to make the earth the right size to being with, is irrelevant to xtian thinking.
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dano wrote:
"I hate to call him a "Fuckup," but what else can I think about someone who knows everything, and can do anything, and the best that he can come up with for someone to love him, are a bunch of primates, that just recently climbed down out of the trees."

Dano,

Let's see Dano, first he created all those angels to worship him.
Obviously, at least some of them had super powers that we lack.

Now, one can't say he created humans merely because we were given this 'free will' that angels lacked, because if satan and his band of demons were able to rebel against god, then they must have had free will like us, right?

So if we humans have this same free-will but lack any super powers that at least some angels have, and we have all these specific needs for a special environment to keep us alive,
then doesn't it make a person wonder why god needed lowly humans to worship him in addition to all those great spirit beings?
What does it do FOR GOD to be worshipped by mortal frail humans?
Why would such a super-being even have a need for worshipping, let alone from humans who just "climbed down out of the trees", as you put it.

The whole concept here just smells of a human FABLE, one transmitted by word of mouth and exaggerated with every new mouth which parroted the fable.
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Mary R. wrote:
"There's a case about a close friend of mine who died waiting for her god to "regenerate" her kidneys ..... After she converted to Xtianity, started to believe what her pastor taught every Sunday out of the Xtian bible—god's promises. Also, her family (were Xtians too) persuaded her to not continue seeking medical treatment for it was like putting god to a test. .......
After she died, they said she didn't have enough faith, and that was the reason why god didn't heal her.

Mary R.
What a SAD tragedy !!

Your story of this poor friend is right up there with the Jehovah Witness children who died because god 'neglected' to reward the parent's great show of faith, when they refused a blood transfusion for their sick child.

It is truly beyond my understanding how anyone can refuse medical treatment and put all their faith in their invisible god healing them instead. Okay, if adults want to play that gambling game with their own lives, that is one level of brainless decision making, but to sacrifice a child because of some ridiculous believed rule, is quite another matter.

I THINK we now have laws in the USA that can overrule such parents neglect of their children(?) but even so, the justice system sometimes moves too slowly to be effective. Most of us understand that to cure cancer, early treatment is of the utmost importance and any delay changes the odds of the outcome.

For the life of me, I can't understand this idea of 'he/she didn't have enough faith", and thus died for lack of faith.
Nice excuse, but once again, can they prove such theories to anyone?
Xtians will always find an excuse for failure, and will always sight god when something good is seen.
Funny, but isn't that what the mystical woo-woo people do with their own successes and failures.
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mike wrote:
"I too have prayed for healing only to be ignored by God. Funny thing is my heart really wanted to live for him, but I think he does not care."

Gosh Mike,
Surely it was because you lacked enough faith........NOT.
It does make one wonder, just how much faith is needed before god's ears are opened to a dire need.
Perhaps one can buy extra faith at the local holy book store, so one can have a better chance of getting heard by god?

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Rick wrote:
When I point at Mathew 17:20 (the whole mustard seed/moving mountain thing) I'm told I'm taking the scripture out of context...... For god being around us at all times and eager to "meet a person half way" he sure hides and encodes his holy word alot"

Rick,
How did this person justify this very plain spoken verse being taken out of context by you ?
It sure sounds plain enough to me as to it's meaning.

You have to love when something is awry in the bible, how they quickly jump to the 'out of context' excuse, but can rarely show us an alternate context that would invalidate the one we just sighted to them.
Frankly, there are many versus that do contradict each other, which only leaves us with no possible conclusion to draw, and of course, proves the bible is errant.
Why would God and Jesus plainly say things in a book (meant to educate humans) that they didn't really mean for us to believe. Are they lying to us?

If one uses the excuse that Jesus spoke in parables to keep some common men (or gentiles) from understanding, then that might (poorly) explain his obscure words while he was alive, but we all know the bible was written AFTER he had long returned to heaven.

At this point in time, the writers were being guided by this Holy Ghost God and one can no longer argue that Jesus' well-being was in jeopardy from his enemies, necessitating a need for 'double-talk'. At this point the truth of his teachings should have been written to us CLEARLY, for ALL OF US, not just a select few.

So Rick, the way I see it, you are justified in believing the power of those versus and if they don't result in answered prayer for anyone, then there is only one conclusion possible.
Either god never existed, or he made the mistake of coming to earth in human form and died 2000 years ago, but miscalculated his own ability to revive his dead corpse....Oops.

Either way, there is no god that even answers the prayers of his own great leaders, let alone the common person.


I DARE ANY XTIAN TO PROVE OTHERWISE TO US !!!!!!



AtheistToothFairy