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9/21/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Christianity doesn't make sense!

By Alex

This (for want of a better word) essay is about something that I have believed for a long time, but which recently has taken over a large portion of my private time. I don't mean to say that this is a bad thing, because, in an odd way, it gives me comfort and clarity in life.

Other times the stuff I read makes me unimaginably angry.

The point of this blog is that I am a hardline atheist. A lot of people seem to think that atheism is foolish, because there is no way to know whether there is a god, and therefore, its just as bad to be atheist as to be religious, in the thinking about stuff terms.

Now, I readily admit that there is no way to know whether there is or is not a god. But I'm not agnostic about religion for the same reason that I am not agnostic to gravity.

Let me explain. There is a popular philosophical thought experiment that says that there is a chance that gravity has only worked the way that it has by coincidence. Maybe gravity sometimes pushes objects away. But by pure chance, we have never observed it happening.

Think about it, there is a chance that gravity doesn't always pull things towards it, but the chance is so small, and the concept is so ridiculous, that its not worth thinking about.

In my mind, it;s the same with religion. There is a chance that there may be a god, but to me the chance is so small, and the notion so ridiculous, that its not worth thinking about.

This is why I am an atheist rather than an agnostic.

I spend a lot of time researching religion and atheism, because I know that there are a lot of questions in the world that I cant answer, but dammit, I'd like to be able to answer them. So Im throwing myself into this more than I have ever thrown myself into anything else in my life ever.

The worst part about it is that, I still sometimes feel ashamed that I am atheist. Maybe its the fact that I was brought up in Christian schools, with Christian teachers and friends. Maybe its the society I live in. I don't know. But I often don't want to admit my atheism too much, at least not to people who don't already know.

To people I know, I seem to be seen as some sort of militant atheist. I'm not sure whether I'm proud or ashamed by that. I mean, do I come across as sure of myself, or arrogant? rational, or intolerant?

I'm not in any position to say.

I'm not sure how to vocalise why I believe what I do, but I'll give it a go.

When you boil it all down, and ignore all arguments about evolution, or the Big Bang yadda yadda yadda, in my mind it comes down to this:

Where is god?

God must be conscious, yes? But where is this consciousness? Is it in the sky? Is it in another dimension? Is it everywhere?

People used to believe that heaven was in the sky. But now we know whats in the sky, and I sure as hell don't see any heaven up there. Other dimensions? Please. Getting into that is too much like a science fiction novel. Everywhere? We know what everything is made of, right down to electrons and neutrons.

Where the hell could god be hiding? Surely he must be somewhere. How can you have a mind without anything physical? It just doesn't make any sense. At all.

I don't understand why people persist in believing this crap. And I HATE that I don't understand this. Its like an itch in the back of my mind that makes me want to stand up and scream at people "How could you possibly think this is true?"

I'd like to think that people only say they believe it for convenience or something, but I know that isn't true.

People don't kill others over an idea thats just convenient.

I turned atheist when I was about 14. This was around the time that I realised I only said I was Christian, because I didn't know of any alternative.

Well, I did know there were alternatives, but they all seemed scary. I didn't know anything about them. Christianity I knew, I could deal with that, but I was scared to take that first step into the unknown.

Then I was told that Noah's Ark actually happened.

So, yeah, after that I was atheist, without really knowing what it meant. Thats when I discovered that before then, I was really the only Christian member of my family. And that made me feel pretty stupid.

Wow, I started this blog intending to talk about everything I'm thinking at the moment, and its turning into an essay. I'm not sure theres enough time to touch on EVERYTHING in my head right now, but I'll do my best. Congratulations on getting this far.

Until recently I would muddle through life, not really caring what people believed, but now I find it hard not to judge people on their beliefs. Not everyone, theres some Christians who I know who really are good people, and do follow the rules they set themselves, and don't try to change me.

I guess thats what my feelings about other peoples beliefs really depend on; whether they try to convert me, or push their beliefs on me in any way.

When this does happen, it makes me very angry, and I'm never really sure why im angry. When I heard that my dad was in a coma, shortly before he died, I was preparing to go and visit him in hospital. I was having a cigarette outside, just before leaving, and I was obviously in some distress. Then a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses walked up to me and started trying to tell me about Jesus.

I think even Christians could understand why this pissed me off. I was visibly upset, what I needed was a friend to talk to, or to be left alone, and these guys thought that this was a good time to try and convert me? How fucking selfish. Selfish, because they were trying to get a win, and finally convert someone. The worst part is that they probably think that they were trying to help! They probably dont even realise how selfish they were being.

A while ago I was going through a tough time, and I was talking to a Christian friend about it. All she could come up with to say to me was "I'll pray for you"

I can honestly say, I would have preferred she just spat at me and told me to get over myself.

I had no idea why I felt so angry about this, until I read something in a book, which dealt with this situation. Its that it was so fucking patronising. She knows how I feel about religion, and yet she said this, thinking it would comfort me? I know she probably didn't mean it like this, but it felt to me that she was exploiting my time of need, to try and convert me. I felt used and insulted. What good is praying for me going to do? Even if god does exist, I've turned my back on him, and hes not gonna make my life any better, because unless he showed up on my door step, I wouldn't believe it was him that did it.

Thats another thing. Even if there was proof god exists, I wouldn't worship him. He created an entire universe, so that the only sapient beings on it could spend their lives worshiping him? Why bother? Does he really need validation so much, that he would create a plane of existence, just to have things to worship him?

God is kind, and loves everyone, and thats why if you don't believe in him you will BE TORTURED FOR ETERNITY. Makes sense.

He gave us free will, so that he can punish us if we ever even think about using it.

I refuse to worship such an ego-maniacal, masochistic deitard.

And yes, I do copyright the term 'deitard'.


People argue intelligent design.

Has anyone actually looked at the things he supposedly designed?

The earths crust is broken up, and floats around, crashing into other pieces, causing earthquakes, volcanoes and tidal waves. Human spines are designed for creatures walking on all fours. They have been adapted for an upright stance by simply bending it. The bending at the base of the spine is the reason most people develop back problems in later life. Creationists go on and on about how the human eye is so complex, it must have been designed. The eye is designed upside down and back to front! Light has to pass through blood vessels, fluid, and various other things that get in the way before reaching the light sensitive cones and rods, and the signal can be sent to the back of the brain. Why does the left side of the brain control the right side of the body? Why do we have an appendix? What the FUCK is up with teeth?

Look up 'incompetent design' for more info.

I believe that there is no afterlife. And I am happy believing that. I want to believe that when I die, there is nothing.

People have asked me "How can you go through life believing that? How can you not just curl into a ball and cry, knowing that theres no afterlife?". Well, it comes down to the nature of forever. The afterlife must be an eternal thing. Otherwise its just another life. I sure as hell dont want to be conscious and thinking forever. I can barely deal with being conscious and thinking for one life, thank you very much. Eternity it a fuck of a long time to be thinking.

Think about it. Really think about it. Do you really want to be conscious for eternity? Forever is a scary thing when you think about it. If you go to heaven, how can perfection last forever? It just doesn't make sense.

While I'm on the subject of heaven, I'd like to share with you something that puzzles me.

What is heaven?

By definition, it must be perfect, otherwise whats the point?

But definitions of perfect differ from person to person. Is heaven the same for everyone, or different? If its the same for everyone, well, it cant really be perfect, can it? Cos there will always be someone who isn't happy with it. But it cant work being different either. Say you loved me, but I hated you. Your idea of perfection would include me, but mine wouldn't include you. Would I be in your heaven or not? Either way, someone isnt happy. So you see, the concept of the afterlife is a paradox in itself.

How could you still think without a physical brain?

Why would god make us go through the rigmarole of earth, when, being that he is omniscient, he already knows whether we are going to heaven or hell?

How can god be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? If he knows the future, he knows what he is going to do. Can he decide to do differently? If so, he's not omniscient, and if not, hes not omnipotent.

There are too many questions. Too many paradoxes. And too many ridiculous notions.

IT. DOESN'T. MAKE. SENSE.

Well, Ive been writing this for an hour and a half. Its now 4.30am. I'm finished.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

great post, I must admit I agree with everything you wrote. I\\\'ve never been a christian or religious but I completely feel the annoyance from the presumption and patronizing statements from christians. It\\\'s like me telling them, yes, you have some horrible shit going on, I can\\\'t really do anything and I don\\\'t know what to say, but don\\\'t worry, I\\\'ll pray to Aphrodite and see if she\\\'ll help you out. Or I\\\'ll perform some rituals and spells and everything will probably get better. The implication you know is that they will in fact later claim that any positive occurrences in your life will be due to their special action. Wow, aren\\\'t you special to warrant so much attention?

Things are so often black and white to the religious, it\\\'s quite sad. They only see 2 options - god and no god and give them equal weight. As if they cannot see beyond the tiny little bubble they\\\'ve confined themselves in, blocking out all the other possible gods, religions, dieties.
It\\\'s not that they can\\\'t see the forest for the trees - it\\\'s as if they can\\\'t see the forest for Santa Claus, because they\\\'ve crawled into his bag of presents and sealed the bag from the inside!

And heaven and afterlife, what a ridiculous concept!
It never ceases to amaze me whether the religious ever think it thru. Do they even care how it might be? how they might be bored out of their tiny little minds? How tenaciously they cling to life and the idea of never dying. Will heaven be like an eternal and never ending orgasm? Insane pleasure that just blanks out your mind in a blast of white? Or perhaps they will spend an eternity alone with their diety, like the devoted puppy who finds joy in spending their master around. Or somehow they will have their floating minds magically filled with all the knowledge of the world that they never knew in the mortal realm?

It seems like all variations I\\\'ve heard pretty much ends growth, knowledge, and the pursuit of improving oneself mentally. Oh wait, I forgot, they\\\'re not interested in that are they.

Jim Earl said...

Thanks, Alex, for your post.

I can relate to many of the same feelings. However, I was one that once dedicated myself to the lord. I was one of the "true believers" that many cretins write about now. They love to say how we couldn't have been really true christians. That doesn't bother me at all now. I guess I've mellowed out with age.

I am an atheist and damn proud of that fact. I didn't choose to be that way, it just happened. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks again for your post.

Anonymous said...

The belief that all existence, life mind and reason itself are the result of mindless forces doesn't make sense either, and, of course, has never been demonstrated.

But keep the faith!

Maybe the Theory of Everything will be developed before the nuclear weapons and other wmds provided by the atheist scientists...Dawkins assures us most scientists are atheiets...are used to destroy humanity.

After all, fundies just talk about the end of the world. Atheist Scientists have made it a real possibility.

Jamie said...

To people I know, I seem to be seen as some sort of militant atheist. I'm not sure whether I'm proud or ashamed by that. I mean, do I come across as sure of myself, or arrogant? rational, or intolerant?

My wife is a fundamentalist who is certain in her beliefs, and insists that if I just pray, read my bible, and "open my mind" to the Spirit, and let go of my stubbornness, that my belief will be restored.

I on the other hand believe that I need to see evidence to believe. Not the subjective kind, like "knowing in my heart" there is a God.

And yet, apparently, *I* am the arrogant one. And she isn't.

Go figure, eh?

AtheistToothFairy said...

Alex,

Ahhh, A man after my own heart !!
I especially like what you said about "Where is god" hiding.

Isn't funny how the bible writers imply god is up in sky, not all that far from the surface, in the realm of the firmament, or not really much further away than that.

Does the bible give a point of reference for his abode, such as saying he's far beyond the sun or around some planet those ancient folks already knew about....NO.
Does Jesus point to a star (or what looks like a star to the naked eye) and say to his followers...That's where I'll live when I go back to my father etc.....NO.
Does he say he lives far beyond all the planets (old gods) or the stars, where there exist no stars.
No..why not?
I mean, it's not like he had to worry about those humans finding a way to travel to heaven and intrude upon god's sacred realm.

If Jesus lives in a non-material realm (another dimension) then why was it necessary for him to 'ascend into heaven' after his resurrection.
Exactly WHERE was he ascending TO, when he rose thru the clouds that day.
Doesn't the fact that he had to RISE and not just vanish himself into thin air, tell us something about his nature. It wasn't like he beamed-up to heaven, like we see on Star Trek.

If we say heaven is 'up', then wouldn't heaven be 'down' for those who live down-under...just had to ask that one...lol.

If there is a hell, where would it be and how does satan and his demons move from hell to earth. How does a non-physical angel/demon mate with a human and have a baby.
If they are made of spirit only, what matter do they use to turn themselves into something physical, and physical enough to impregnate a woman with those little 'swimming pieces of human DNA'.

Does jesus tell us how big heaven is.
Why doesn't he give us a single clue as to where this heaven is?

When our astronomers search the galaxies using instruments that can detect far more than the human senses can, does god hide behind planets when he see's them peeking towards him.

The whole idea is the stuff of science fiction and fables and has NO basis in reality at all !!

GREAT POST ALEX !!!

Please ignore our token fundie troll, who likes to chime in to every new poster's rant or testimony.


ATF

DUG said...

I am fairly sure that (so-called) "christianity" (and most-if-not-all other so-called "religions") don't make any sense, because it's MEANT to not make any sense.

I can't imagine any better way to 'brainwash-people' than to fill their heads with obviously contradictory information, then tell them to "just-have-faith".

(AKA Turn off Your mind/s)

Once all/most critical thinking skills have been rendered moot, there is practically no end to the things that these (blind) followers can be told to do. IMO

If it DID 'make-sense', then it wouldn't be nearly as useful a tool for mind-control for these evil "people" that "shepherd (fleece)the flock/s".

Which also explains, (IMO), WHY the top-people usually get SO ANGRY about persons who 'challenge' their claims, it really threatens their control over the masses/ threatens their cushy lifestyle,....etc.

People that are 'converted' also have a great tendency to become VERY ANGRY at persons that have different views, perhaps one of the reasons is that it's a quite difficult thing for most people to be able to admit that they've been so completely DUPED by these charlatans for so long.

(it WAS very embarrasing to me, not so much anymore)

I was indoctrinated from childhood, so, I'll just be VERY glad that I was able to de-convert at ALL-!

Anonymous said...

Anonybot:
"After all, fundies just talk about the end of the world. Atheist Scientists have made it a real possibility."

----

Fundies dont just talk it. they eat, sleep, breath, fart, dream it.

- Anon #4587

Tufty said...

Hi again, Im the guy who wrote this article. I wanted to thank the freethinkers for backing me up, and I want to say a big fuck you to the troll who posted the exact same comment here as I've seen in countless other articles on this site.

But saying that, I do feel a little let down. I posted this here in the hope that someone would at least try to challenge anything that Ive said, so that I could maybe trim out anything that didnt make sense, or update my arguments to be more effective. I want to be challenged, otherwise how can I be sure that my point has been made?

I dont know if anyone will read this comment, now that this article is off the front page, but Im disappointed that the only challenge I got to this was half uneducated bullshit, and half copied and pasted from some other article. I mean, I didnt even mention anything about nuclear weapons or the end of the world, how was that bit relevant?

Anyway, thats all I have to say for this article, but im gonna stick around on this site, cos I enjoy it. Thanks a lot.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Tuffy (alex) said:
"I posted this here in the hope that someone would at least try to challenge anything that Ive said, so that I could maybe trim out anything that didnt make sense, or update my arguments to be more effective"
------------
Alex,

As I previously said to you, I very much agree with the things you said !!

However, in many cases throughout your article, you are clearly stating your own personal opinions/feelings and asking questions no one could possibly answer, so there is little to argue with, as you're not really presenting 'factual' evidence that a xtian could debate with you.

For instance you ask the following unanswerable questions:

>"How could you still think without a physical brain?"

If there is a spirit world, those beings surely would be more than mere robots, but how could any living human possibly know the answer to your question, let alone have a debate about it?
Sure, one can debate whether spirits and/or a spirit world exists, just as we debate the existence of various gods, but nothing in known science could render an answer to your question here, right.


>"What is heaven?...By definition, it must be perfect, otherwise whats the point"

As you pointed out yourself, who could say what this heaven is or what the term 'perfect' would mean, as it clearly would mean something different to each person.
So on what foundation would one debate something that is mostly undocumented?


>"Where is god?"

Most xtians would say god was in heaven or god was everywhere.
Is there any means to debate whether god is in place X or place Y...of course not, so while your question is interesting, it can only be answered by opinion with no backing evidence.

>"The earths crust is broken up, and floats around"

While I personally agree this would constitute a defect in the creation of the planet, I'm sure some xtians would either find a good reason it does this floating thing, or some excuse for god having to make it this way. Either way, it's a dead end argument, as citing such interesting facts would never impact a true xtians mind.


>The eye is designed upside down and back to front! Light has to pass through blood vessels
>Why does the left side of the brain control the right side of the body?

Again, such facts would add to the evidence in an athiest's mind that god didn't create us, but trust me, it would mean nothing to a fundie xtian.


>I sure as hell dont want to be conscious and thinking forever.

Obvioulsy a personal opinion, and I'm sure xtians would say something like god will find a way to keep us both busy and happy for all of eternity, so once again this idea you present won't deter a xtian believer.


Things you said that one 'could' debate:

>Then I was told that Noah's Ark actually happened

While the story of the ark added to you seeing the bible as fiction, you offer nothing extra here to argue for/against.


>He gave us free will, so that he can punish us if we ever even think about using it

This subject is already a hotly debated topic between xtians and atheists.
You would have to write an entire article just on this topic alone to have any impact for your argument.
Although, I do think you summed it up nicely into one brief sentence, but what works for me sure won't for a xtian thinker.


>People argue intelligent design.
>Creationists go on and on about how the human eye is so complex, it must have been designed

Now here we have something that is the stuff of many debates.
However, what do you present here to critique really?

Creationist talk about things being too complex to have been made without their creator, while evolutionist can cite plenty of examples where organs were made with flaws or serve no purpose at all.
You basically are giving a short summary of the evidence each side would present, but nothing here you cite is going to move someone over the huge dividing line between the two ways of thinking.
(Again, I totally agree that the xtian god goofed in his designs, but see, that's only my opinion)


>"I believe that there is no afterlife"

This topic is highly debatable, but you offer no evidence one could use in a debate, so you are stating just an opinion here (even though I do happen to agree with you)
You don't try and supply evidence that ghost sightings are imagined or faked or that folks from beyond the grave don't really make contact with the living.
So again, you are stating only your own belief here, with nothing beyond that opinion to debate pro/con.


>"People don't kill others over an idea thats just convenient

How true....at least sane people don't act this way.
Such a point of fact could be used to support xtian thinking, as they believe it's evidence that their brethren were willing to die for their beliefs.
On the other hand, us atheist will cite the fact that being willing to kill others or oneself, isn't evidence that god really exists.

However, I'm sure there are lots of people who claim to be xtians that actually proclaim their belief, just for convenience or to avoid rocking the boat of their social lives.

So what were you expecting your readers to say to this statement of the obvious?


Now if you're looking to get into debates with some heavy-duty xtians, then I suggest you start with this website.
http://www.carm.org/evidence.htm

They have sections filled with xtian excuses for belief of their bible and even some that claim to dismiss the arguments of us atheist/agnostics.


So alex, now that I've said all this.
What exactly were you hoping to hear about your article, that you didn't.
How about an example here, okay?

Did you really expect the fundies on this site to debate what you wrote?
Ummm, if so, have you actually seen the comments that have been made by our fundie types?



Good hunting,
ATF

Tufty said...

"So alex, now that I've said all this.
What exactly were you hoping to hear about your article, that you didn't.
How about an example here, okay?"

ATF, I was looking for exactly what you just did. Thank you.

I wrote this article in the middle of the night, during a time when I was getting roughly 2 hours of sleep a night. I knew what I had written made sense to me, but I wanted to find the bits that didnt make sense to people who dont necessarily think like me.

I wasnt really looking for evidence of anything though, because anything I could possibly think of wouldnt be new, or succinct enough to sway anyone. I'm one of the rare 18 year olds who is well aware that i dont know everything.

What I wanted was maybe for a christian to lay out their opinions that differ from mine and say why they think like that in an educated way. Although reading more articles on this site, I realise that educated and clear thinking christians are very hard to come by on this site. Im just trying to understand why people believe the things that they do. Not knowing things frustrates me a ridiculous amount, especially when the answer seems so obvious to me.

Its very annoying that Ive been looking at almost every website I can find that includes debates between christians and atheists, but I have yet to find a single argument that can challenge my (non)beliefs. I guess thats just what I want, not because I want to be christian, but because I dont want to be like christians, if you understand what Im saying.

Well, thank you for your critique, I will certainly take note of things you have said if I ever get round to rewriting it.

Tufty

AtheistToothFairy said...

Tufty wrote:
"I'm one of the rare 18 year olds who is well aware that i dont know everything.....
Not knowing things frustrates me a ridiculous amount, especially when the answer seems so obvious to me."
---
Alex (tufty),
Firstly, you're very welcome. It always a pleasure to help someone like yourself !!

I hadn't realized you were a young adult and frankly I'm surprised at your young age from the wisdom you already are showing in your writings.

While I wasn't on the same path as you when I was your age, we did have one thing in common. We both were trying to figure out the god mystery.

You are quite lucky to have the internet around to help in your discoveries, where my young self back then had to visit libraries and various churches to gather the information I wanted.
Where you (at age 18) have already concluded that god is a myth, I was still trying to figure out which xtian sect had the right interpretation of the bible.

I was still fairly sure that god was real at that age, but he seemed more a god who created everything and then took a long extended trip to another galaxy.
I held out hope for a long time that his return was imminent, but there was always that little voice in me that kept saying there was no god, but I refused to heed that voice back then.

Also, back then if there were atheist around, you never found out, as everyone would SAY they believed in some god, even if they were only the once a year (xmas) church goer type.
If all these older adults were SAYING god was real, who was I at that young age to dispute what everyone agreed was real.
So you are more lucky than I was in those old days, in that you don't have to fake such beliefs.... or suppress that little doubting voice inside you.

Please, feel free to toss anything else out that you want the members here to take a look at for you. I'm sure they'll be happy to.....Right Fellow Members??????

Alex, I sure do hope your parents are proud of having such an intelligent wise young man for a son?


ATF

Tufty said...

Heh, yes ATF, my mum is proud of me. But if anything, I'm more proud of her, I couldnt have asked her to do a better job raising me and my brother.

And you're right, I am lucky. More lucky than you think, because I live in south-west England, and the balance of religious people to non-religious people is roughly half and half. Also, we dont really have any fundies around here, apart from a few people who stand in the town centre shouting at people.

I didnt come from a religious family, but I did happen to be in christian schools until i was 12, which is where the beliefs were hammered into my brain. I can honestly say that until i was 12 I didnt know that there were alternatives to christianity. I feel betrayed by my schools, because they didnt teach me to think, they taught me that I'd get punished if I didnt sing the hymns loud enough.

I didnt really like being a christian, because all of the christians I knew seemed the be faking happiness all the time, and their idea of fun was really sad. I mean, who really enjoys sitting in a circle listening to a priest strum 2 chords on a ratty guitar while singing about jesus? ...Well, I guess the priest does, but still.

The entire time that I was christian was boring, unfulfilling, stressful and full of moments where I would stop and think "....huh? that doesnt seem right..."


I guess one of the things that prevented me from being a christian was such things as arguing with the religious studies teacher when she said that god was jesus's father. I claimed that a hallucination is no grounds to determine the father of a baby, and most likely, the baby was joseph's. She wouldnt let up, so I loudly asked the coupe de grace in front of the class...


"Well...in that case, wasnt Joseph a bit pissed off that God was banging his missus?"

I thank you, and goodnight.

freethinker05 said...

ATF, my friend, if I could've put a comment together, like your's too Tufty; Then I would've said the same thing. It also took me a long time to figure the godthing, (biblegod) out. Goes to show, no matter how educated or uneducated, (as myself) is, that we all can be (and) stay decieved for many yrs. Peace, Roger...P.S. Great post Tufty, and welcome.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Tufty wrote:
>"Also, we dont really have any fundies around here, apart from a few people who stand in the town centre shouting at people"
--
Alex,

Would these shouting people be warning of the 'end of the world' or 'jesus is coming back soon'?

I have a picture here in my head of a scene from the CONTACT movie (Jodie Foster), where the fundies were protesting the building of the alien machine; all screaming and holding up their signs about god. Great movie btw !!


>"I can honestly say that until i was 12 I didnt know that there were alternatives to christianity"

I also was quite shielded from knowing that any other religions existed while growing up.
Really, the only exposure to them was in high school history class, but even there they just would state the religion of a particular culture being studied, without explaining it's basic doctrine.
One quickly got the message (from every direction) that Christianity was the 'true' religion and all others belonged to some 3rd world nations.


> I feel betrayed by my schools, because they didnt teach me to think, they taught me that I'd get punished if I didnt sing the hymns loud enough"

So instead of teaching you to think, you learned how to memorize a ton of useless information and got in trouble if you couldn't (or wouldn't), right?
Of course, if they were to really teach a kid how to think, he might think him/herself right out of the religious box they kept one in.

So you must be great at singing hymns by now, right...LOL
This 'punished' idea sure reminds me of stories from friends who grew up going to catholic schools here in the U.S..
Rulers do more than measure inches (or CM), in such schools.



>"Well...in that case, wasnt Joseph a bit pissed off that God was banging his missus?"

I love this question you asked !!
Funny, I asked that very question as a young boy (but in a nicer manner) and got told that Joseph was not mad because a holy angel let him know that mary would give birth to god, so he shouldn't be jealous or angry etc..
I was skeptical of that answer, even then, but like so many things that didn't quite make sense, I wasn't up to challenging adult leaders.... beyond a simple inquisitive question that is.


>I thank you, and goodnight.

Again, you're very welcome Alex,
ATF

AtheistToothFairy said...

freethinker05 wrote:
"ATF, my friend, if I could've put a comment together, like your's too Tufty; Then I would've said the same thing"
--
Roger (ole' buddy),
I'm sure you could have made some good comments to !!

It's kinda funny, because I wasn't even sure when I began to write, what I was going to say about his post to him. I had to put myself in xtian shoes to see what he said, in the light of how they might see his points, regardless of how much sense his words made to my now godless mind.
So Roger, if he wants opinions on his next comments/post, please, jump right in, okay?


>It also took me a long time to figure the godthing, (biblegod) out. Goes to show, no matter how educated or uneducated, (as myself) is, that we all can be (and) stay decieved for many yrs.

I think that deception works vastly better if a religious sect learns how to toy with your emotions, especially thru the head-game of making you feel great one second and a worthless sinner the next. The dynamic range of feelings becomes an addiction that is hard to conquer.

I can't say that any particular sect ever got that close to my heart to screw with my emotions, as I could never wrap myself around any one sect long enough for them to get that sort of hold on me.

I think my old self was just too gullible/fearful to question the very existence of god/jesus, but never too gullible to question a particular doctrine.
I also was taught early on, that to believe in jesus and then turn your back one day, would land you in the biggest fires of hell for sure. That doctrine alone was enough to make me not question things TOO deeply.

It took many years of first looking into the nonsense of the supernatural/paranormal side of things, before it led up to questioning how a supernatural god and his realms of heaven and hell and angel spirit creatures, could possibly exists to.
Once I added in both my former and new knowledge of the problem with the bible itself, well, the answer became quite obvious, at least for me.

Of course, if one is emotionally bound to the idea of an afterlife in heaven with god, then it really doesn't matter how intelligent you are, as you will always find excuses to support your needed belief and ignore anything to the contrary. I know, because that is what I did for the majority of my life.

I suppose that explains how we have intelligent xtian apologist out there, who skew their way of thinking to support their emotional need for a god/heaven.
Yet, their reasoning skills work just fine when debunking other religions that are really not so different in their fantasy quality as Christianity is.


ATF

Anonymous said...

If a God existed and according to the bible he wants us to follow his rules, believe and worship and praise him wouldn't that make him a narcissist? Would you want to believe in a God like that? Isn't that what a dictator does, Hitler, Castro, Husein? I don't see the difference?

Anonymous said...

In reference to the previous message, the difference is that God is compassionate. What concerns me the most is how upsetting this makes those that don't believe. I can understand when it's forced upon you. However, if you are firm in what you believe that should bother you if someone says they pray for you or try and convert you. I'm a Christian and I am by no stretch closed minded. I understand that many of you don't understand why we believe what we believe. However, there are some things that cannot be ignored: Intelligent design - the idea that this world or universe was created by chance. That would be like saying by watch was put together by chance. When you realize the accuracy of the biblical prophecies, it is undeniable the existence of God. Thirdly, you must understand the compassion of God. He desire that all would be saved, but the truth is everyone will not because people will deny Him. He doesn't punish you, He only gives us what we deserve if we deny Him. Such as a person that commits murder. They're only punished when they have been found guilty of their crimes. Such as the case when you've been found of denying His existence. No difference. Understand, that I love each of you. Thanks for taking time to read this.

Rick said...

Anonyidiot said : "I'm a Christian and I am by no stretch closed minded.

You are an assclown

That your opening statement is that god is compassionate tells us all we need to know about how full of shit you are. I would suggest that you actually read the bible to learn the truth for yourself. Look for the "compassion" god provided to all the flood victims in the story of Noah, from the children of mankind, to the unborn, to the animals, plants, and insects of the world who all suffered a punishment they had no part of.

Next look into the compassion of forcing the pharaoh to not give in to Moses so that the plagues could be visited down upon the people of Egypt and the deaths of first born.

How about the compassion towards Job? He let satan play with him, killing off his family. Even getting a new family, I would be pretty pissed if I lost mine simply because god's ego got the better of him.

Not to mention all the people butchered in the name of god, their fields burned and pillaged, their cities destroyed, the people put to death and the young virgin girls kept for rape and slavery. The compassion simply oozes from the bible.

I understand that many of you don't understand why we believe what we believe.

Apparently you don't. People believe because they are afraid. Some because they fear punishment for not believing, some because they cannot face the fact that death is an unknown and quite possibly may lead to the nothingness they had before being born. They cannot stand the fact that their loved ones are really and honestly GONE and they will never meet them again. So they delude themselves in order to avoid the fear.

However, there are some things that cannot be ignored: Intelligent design - the idea that this world or universe was created by chance.

I really wish you people would actualy educate yourselves on what you argue against rather than just pucking up the same old dogma over and over and over. In every situation EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM where Intelligent Design or Evolution has been discussed and debated by a forum of trained and educated professionals Intelligent Design has lost and Evolution has been proven and accepted.

The only people that refuse to accept the results of that are liars like you who claim to not be "close minded" yet continually ignore the evidence in order to maintain your beliefs.

Get a real education and stop blabbering the rhetoric like you actually have something new to point out. The simple mention of "chance" in your comment proves that you have a completely ignorant understanding of science, evolution, and life.

When you realize the accuracy of the biblical prophecies

Making prophecies about someone AFTER they have died isn't really a prophecy.

He desire that all would be saved, but the truth is everyone will not because people will deny Him. He doesn't punish you, He only gives us what we deserve if we deny Him.

You are a sick individual that you cannot recognize your own blather. Explain why there are so many religions and why your flavor of it is the right one. Explain why every single person that reads the bible comes away with a different answer. Explain why any god wishing for his children to find salvation would allow all the confusion to exist. There are those in every religion that honestly want nothing more than to worship god correctly and to praise him, serve him, and do his work. Yet because they were born in the wrong area or heard the wrong message first they are dammed.

This does not sound like a god who wants everyone who truly seeks him to find him. This does not sound like a god that is compassionate.

Thanks for taking time to read this.

You nean wasting the time to read it. Everything you've written is the same regurgitated nonsense that all of you self deluded idiots come on here and say over and over. Even after all the logical fallacies have been pointed out, all the evidence is provided to show where you are wrong, and all the lies you promote have been revealed, still you come. Because not only are you too damn lazy to research the site to see that your message is not unique, but you are too close-minded to actually consider the possibility that you are not only wrong, but completely full of crap. Refer back to my opening definition of people like you.

Jim Arvo said...

Rick, there's no need to be so reserved. Tell us what you really think! :-)

Actually, I think Rick did an excellent job.

To Anonymous, do you have any idea why we do not share your beliefs? I'll wager that most of us here could make a long list of reasons why you and other Christians hold your beliefs. Most of us are familiar with all the common apologetic arguments, including "fulfilled" prophecies, ID, revelation, personal relationships, unexplained happenings, etc. etc. However, I'll bet you cannot do likewise--that is, I'll bet you can list very few (if any) of the actual reasons we do not share your beliefs. Want to give it a go?

Rick said...

You're right Jim, that came off a bit rude.

It wouldn't be so hard if I could think that they were just ignorant and didn't know truly what they were saying, but time and time again we see that they consciously choose to ignore valid contradictions to their rhetoric and dogma.

I guess my frustration builds up after a bit.

stronger now said...

I thought it was spot on, Rick.

Everyone needs to depressurize from time to time.

'Course, I probably have a skewed version of what is polite and what isn't. So....

...Yeah! What Jim said!

Jim Arvo said...

Hi Rick,

I wasn't chastising you for being rude, I was just making a little joke. (Ok, a microscopic one.)

I know what you mean about the frustration. At some point it seems to be sheer intellectual dishonesty on the other side, and you just want to scream. Been there...

webmdave said...

Drives me nuts too. Sometimes I wish I could sue my Sunday school teachers for putting this rot in my head. Oh, well, wisdom in the end.
I loved your line "He gave us free will, so that he can punish us if we ever even think about using it." That cracked my up!
Be well,

webmdave said...

"with that being said do what you want but what haram can come from seeking truth?"

The truth is that no theist has "yet" to provide "context" to the "word" God, to give it "meaning".

The truth is that people who hold irrational truths, i.e., emotion based, etc. can't communicate or exchange knowledge based on those truths.

The truth is that people who aren't fixated on irrational truths, based on meaningless words... have a greater propensity to quest for truth(s); further, that any truth finds, can be shared with others who are of a rational state of mind.

The truth, is that a person who irrationally believes a single "word" (lacking context and meaning), is the answer to all conceivable questions... no longer has a need to seek truth; they believe they hold "all" answers to questions surrounding religiosity (and that covers morality to physics)... ironically... their “mind” holds both omniscience (all answers) and the word God – convenient as they “self-worship” their mental divinity.

webmdave said...

Mike: "Continue believing that only man made rules apply and God does not have any I really dont care but I suggest you take my advice and read it."

Typical... real first person narrative, delivered from an imaginary third person point of view. Mike, your suggestion is "your" suggestion, pardon, but... when your "god" provides the suggestion... then it will be "more" than "your" asserted man made rule.

Do you not understand the obvious contradiction you have made... you present your "man made rule" e.g., "I suggest you take my advice and read it"... yet, declare that "man made rule" is not to be trusted. So... do you somehow consider your self, not of this reality, along with "all" other humans?

If you wanted to be more succinct, you could have just said... "Hey, obey me... my man made rule, is superior to everyone's on this planet." Of course, you color over your arrogance by promoting a pseudo-altruistic demeanor... a painter can not paint over a "hole" in the canvas, no more than Mike can color over the illogical holes that riddle his comments.

webmdave said...

Mike: "Continue believing that only man made rules apply and God does not have any I really dont care but I suggest you take my advice and read it."

Typical... real first person narrative, delivered from an imaginary third person point of view. Mike, your suggestion is "your" suggestion, pardon, but... when your "god" provides the suggestion... then it will be "more" than "your" asserted man made rule.

Do you not understand the obvious contradiction you have made... you present your "man made rule" e.g., "I suggest you take my advice and read it"... yet, declare that "man made rule" is not to be trusted. So... do you somehow consider your self, not of this reality, along with "all" other humans?

If you wanted to be more succinct, you could have just said... "Hey, obey me... my man made rule, is superior to everyone's on this planet." Of course, you color over your arrogance by promoting a pseudo-altruistic demeanor... a painter can not paint over a "hole" in the canvas, no more than Mike can color over the illogical holes that riddle his comments.

webmdave said...

sorry it was 1 john 5 vs 7 that was thrown out of the r.s.v. regarding the trinity

webmdave said...

Thank you so much for your blog. I have felt the same way, yet because of my christian upbringing I think deep down I still believe it in spite of the fact that it doesnt feel right. It has cause a lot of illness in my body really!

Your friend telling you she would pray for you, she said that because it comforted her, not you. She believes you are going to hell.

Thanks again!!

Lissa :)

webmdave said...

Thank you so much for your blog. I have felt the same way, yet because of my christian upbringing I think deep down I still believe it in spite of the fact that it doesnt feel right. It has cause a lot of illness in my body really!

Your friend telling you she would pray for you, she said that because it comforted her, not you. She believes you are going to hell.

Thanks again!!

Lissa :)

webmdave said...

Even if he would show up on my doorstep, It would be difficult for me to follow him, because he is allowing others to be in hell. It just seems like a game and it doesn't feel fair.

webmdave said...

Hey tooth fairy or what ever you call your self all I can say to you is unless you seek truth you wont find it. On judgement day and I know you dont believe in that you will regret your cute comments. Here is case of an online tough guy who just talks shit and this goes for any of you who say that you dont believe in God, say what you want but you are going through hard times or right before you have some type of problem where you can die i.e car accident or someone puts a gun to your fuckin ignorant head the first thing your gonna think is please god dont let me die. I dont care what you say. I am not a religious guy I do alot of things wrong I just do alot of readin on religion and I happened to come across this satanic website. So continue telling people you dont believe in God or an after life and one day when times get rough for you since you are sure that there is no heaven or hell and you wont be judged for anything just blow your fuckin head off so you dont have to deal with the bullshit on earth and find out for yourself if there is a God, IF what you believe is true then wish death upon yourself but you never will. So Im just gonna print a copy of this so I can wipe my ass with the tooth fairys comment

webmdave said...

Hey tooth fairy or what ever you call your self all I can say to you is unless you seek truth you wont find it. On judgement day and I know you dont believe in that you will regret your cute comments. Here is case of an online tough guy who just talks shit and this goes for any of you who say that you dont believe in God, say what you want but you are going through hard times or right before you have some type of problem where you can die i.e car accident or someone puts a gun to your fuckin ignorant head the first thing your gonna think is please god dont let me die. I dont care what you say. I am not a religious guy I do alot of things wrong I just do alot of readin on religion and I happened to come across this satanic website. So continue telling people you dont believe in God or an after life and one day when times get rough for you since you are sure that there is no heaven or hell and you wont be judged for anything just blow your fuckin head off so you dont have to deal with the bullshit on earth and find out for yourself if there is a God, IF what you believe is true then wish death upon yourself but you never will. So Im just gonna print a copy of this so I can wipe my ass with the tooth fairys comment

webmdave said...

"So continue telling people you dont believe in God or an after life and one day when times get rough for you since you are sure that there is no heaven or hell and you wont be judged for anything just blow your fuckin head off so you dont have to deal with the bullshit on earth and find out for yourself if there is a God, IF what you believe is true then wish death upon yourself".

How lovely. Nonetheless, I look at the situation a bit differently than you---that is, since the philosophy that you adhere to is so anti-worldly and "pro-spiritual"; and since it claims absolute certainty, it would make much more sense for you to "cash in your chips", pal. This way, both sides get the best of both worlds..i.e..we get our worldly planet rid of superstitious religious zealots like you, and you get to be with your heavenly farter.

webmdave said...

Hey Mike, you really think there's going to be a Judgement Day? Well, when this God of yours calls you forward, and you stand before him, trying to show what a
righteous person you are, and he shows you a copy of one of your profanity-filled
rants, what are you going to say? "Gee God, it's all ATF's fault! Really!"

You have shown yourself to be one of the biggest hypocrites ever to post on this
"Satanic" website, not to mention barely literate. Ever hear of a paragraph?

You want ATF to disprove God. According to information that's been posted on this
site, humanity has created over 5,000 gods. Which one do you want him to disprove?

webmdave said...

Mike:

So continue telling people you dont believe in God or an after life and one day when times get rough for you since you are sure that there is no heaven or hell and you wont be judged for anything just blow your fuckin head off so you dont have to deal with the bullshit on earth and find out for yourself if there is a God, IF what you believe is true then wish death upon yourself but you never will.

Actually, since you think this world is bullshit, and since you believe in an afterlife that is better than this life, why don't you blow your head off? After all, that's what you should logically do. Oh wait, it's because either, a) you don't really believe in God, or b) you're a fucking pussy.

Disrespectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

webmdave said...

Christians claim Moses, Jesus and Abraham were essentially worshiping the Xtian God. And that only through Jesus - one may be saved.
Jews claim that Moses, Abraham and Jesus was still responding and reacting within the Jewish tradition. And they are the chosen people.
Muslims claim that Moses, Jesus and Abraham were essentially worshiping the Islamic God. And that other religions are distorted through accretions.

Can you disprove the other two religious claims (christian and jewish) using evidence and reason? Or are we left only with your opinion on the matter?

webmdave said...

The Holy Quran speaks of people like yourself deaf dumb and blind you walk the earth Jesus says in the bible see and they see not hear and they hear not neither will they understand. You have made very ignorant statements I really dont care if you choose to believe in God or not.

You owe it your self to buy a Quran weither it be you want to find truth or if you want to prove that Islam is the true religon. You can do no harm to yourself by reading it. A professot Jeffery Lang who was an atheist Just like yourself was not seeking truth he was convinced just as you are that there is no God and he opened the book and began reading. During that time he started to relize that being a christian that what he was before he turned atheist was very ignorant .

If you do decide to read the Quran just keep an open mind as some of you on this page have said you are not close minded and you might find the truth. The Quran testifies for itself that it is from God the bible does not. The Quran posses many questions that you will have even before reading it and let the Quran speak for itself as does.

People on this page think Im crazy for believing in God and thats fine with me but there is no better thing you can do than just open the book and read.

In regards to the comment made about why does God not provide enough food or water for people in need on other parts of the globe. There is more than enough of both that no child or anyone should have not have any. It is the greed of man that people suffer from these things. In Islam one of the things we must do besides prayer, fasting is to give charity. This earth we live on which God created is 70% water with the billions of dollars spent on wars or pornograph, drugs whatever they can make water purification factorys in poor countries so they may have water.

Man is greedy and evil not God. You belive what you want. To me it sounds very ignorant that you believe the stories of Moses, Jesus, Muhamed and the thousands of prophets who God sent to us to guide us to the right path are just fairy tales like santa or the tooth fairy.

As I stated if you read the quran with an open mind God willing you might think different. I am not a muslim just because I was born one I am a muslim because I do comparative religion studies and there is not another religion on earth that makes more sense than Islam. In the Bible over an over you hear the prophets giving praise to one God even the Prophet Jesus says God in heaven is the only one worth praise. They all prayed to the 1 true god as do us Muslims.

Like I said the people you hear about on tv claiming to be Muslims and Kill Innocent people have nothing to do with Islam and they are not Muslims. It is sterotype that the media gives the people and only the ignorant believe what they see on tv and do not research themselves. Islam is a religion of peace not war. Read for yourself and you never know what happens, or make ignorant comments about Islam or that there is no God and in the end you will find out the truth.

Nature did not give you a brain God did!! Use it or dont its your choice and your loss

webmdave said...

im man enough to say that I shouldnt of said those things to the tooth fairy but 1 thing I have notice about you guys especailly tooth fairys remark about God fixing a cut off leg or whatever you need to understand that this life is test for the after life in which you guys do not believe. There are many terrible things that go on in this life besides a soldiers leg gettin blown off. Im not sayin that its not a bad thing it is but there are starving people children who do not have water to drink while we take 20 minute showers and waste food and water like there is no tomorrow. Why does God let people dye of starvation or diese? For them paradise is promised. As for your remark about Allah that is an arabic word that means God its not some made up god the gods of the greeks who thought different gods were in charge of seperate things. Theres is only one God and everything belongs to him we are on earth to do right and worship the one true God who created us and we will all return to him on the day of judgement. We take things for granted each day the sun rising and setting we turned into science I am not sayin anything about science but its because of God who created the heavens and earth that these things are possible. God is everywhere and he see all things that are in the open and the things that are secret. He know whats in your heart and all the things you think there is no hiding from him. God does not need to step in everytime something bad is about to happen and prevent it from happining just so people believe in him. He sent down many prophets who spoke the word of God to guide mankind to the right path its up to you to use the brain that he gave you find the truth, if you choose to go astray as many of you on this website are doing by not believing it is your choice but there will be consequences to your actions. Do you think that only man made laws exist? And yes I have heard of a paragraph but Im not writing a school paper here so you can make as many comments as you like about me not writing paragraphs that will get you really far in life. All I can say is I really hope that some if not all of you wake up one day and decide to seek the truth which is God before it is to late. Your comment about nothing happening without God is true so I cant give you any examples of that because nature is God. When you see hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados or any type of storm that is Gods way of showing a small portion of his wrath that you may say my GOD he is all powerful. Open your eyes and hearts and seek the truth and by the grace of God the 1 and only you will find it

webmdave said...

Mike, I am an agnostic polytheist. According to your holy book I should be killed. This does not predispose Me towards belief in your religion.

I am also female. I do not look kindly upon a religion that treats women as second-class citizens.

I am also lesbian. Again, your holy book has passed a death sentence upon Me. This is not something I want to be a part of.

"im man enough to say that I shouldnt of said those things to the tooth fairy but..."

But what? No 'buts' about it. The responsibility for the words you posted remains yours. No excuses.

webmdave said...

I'm tired of him - he is blinkered into thinking that his religion is right, and simply cannot and does not want to see any evidence to the contrary. He has not answered questions except with the glib answer "read the Qu'ran with an open mind and you'll be converted". I've read bits - it's massively confusing and massively contradictory - just like the Bible which I have read all of. I don't need anybody else preaching hell and damnation at me right now.

I'm beginning to feel that all who come on hear preaching should be automatically barred. A lot more work I'm afraid, but this site is becoming less and less about support and more and more about trying to point out religious absurdities to those who promote them without invitation.