ARCHIVES:

Posts in this section were archived prior to February 2010. For more recent posts, go to the HOME PAGE.

9/13/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Drink, Drank, Drunk

By Stronger Now

I find myself thinking of all the questions I had when I was a Xtian about the stuff I read in the Bible. One that always stuck out with me was weather or not wine was a bad thing or a good thing. It was explained to me that anything that is done in excess is bad. It was also explained that the alcohol in the wine was toxic and that made it bad. I was told that wine at small doses was okay, but one should never drink to excess. I was told a great many things but never how a Christian can even get drunk.

Stupid question right? Read on.

Now, as any good health professional and scientist knows, ethanol is a toxic substance. It is a CNS depressant that can cause decreased motor function and, in high quantities, coma and death. This seems to be the Xtian viewpoint as well as the added "spiritual toxicity" that is also present.

Most people that consume alcohol do so at levels well under the lethal level. It is a bone of contention between some Xtian denominations weather or not any alcohol consumption should be tolerated. Which again brings me to ask why all the fuss? A True Christian cannot get drunk anyway right?

Think I made that bit up? It's in there.

Look at Mark 16:18.

It only stands to reason that

1) Alcohol is a toxic substance.

2) True Christians are immune to the harmful effects of ANY toxic substance.

3) Inebriation at any level, is a toxic effect of alcohol consumption, therefore a True Christian cannot get drunk no matter how much wine they drink.

Of course this is not true. It would only take a couple of glasses of wine to show a true Christian how untrue it is. But then it would only show the true Christian that he or she isn’t really a true Christian. In other words, why the buzz? Or, she or he could go for option #2 and be a true Christian that knows that the bible isn't true.

So tell me Christians, do you trust your faith, your bible, or science?

19 comments:

liniasmax said...

Very good illustration that the Good Book can be used to basically say anything, and thus becomes about useless to say anything. Nicely stated!

Anonymous said...

Interesting point. The same could also be said of virtually any over-the-counter medication or prescription drug, let alone illegal substances. Shoot, even the caffiene in your coffee or soda could kill you if you get enough. Of course, if you believe the Bible, that cup of coffee probably shouldn't wake you up in the morning and aspirin shouldn't make your headache go away either!!

Anonymous said...

So, why does Jesus, as his first miracle, transform water into wine? What's the point? He can't get a buzz anyway? Why not just stick with water? Well, it's a wedding... can't have dead-sober wedding guests. Water to wine... it's a MIRACLE. First one he ever done, too.

John of Indiana said...

They used to tell me that wasn't wine Jeebus transmogrified, that was GRAPE JUICE...
Yeah, just like Welch's. 20-27% sugar. In a warm climate like Palestine. Long before Pasteurization.
Drink up, it's gonna ferment before the first course is brought out...

That's also why you don't put New Wine in old bottles.

Left of Center said...

I domnt use this argument because a well versed Christian will say:
(Mat 4:6-7 NIV) "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" {7} Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
A good lawyer only asks a question they know the answer too. So should good atheists. ;)

stronger now said...

left of center,

Is it a test of "the lord" or a test of the christian?

lemaymd said...

Mark 16:18 appears to be talking about all believers as a group. If you read the passage in 1 Cor. about spiritual gifts, it is clear that not all believers are granted all the gifts, such as healing, which is also mentioned in the passage you cited. The scientific understanding of poison is also much different than the colloquial understanding, which is most likely the one intended in this passage.

Steven Bently said...

Mark 16:18
"And they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them" a 'True Christian, that is' this needs to be tested weekly in every church, talk about a soon majority of Atheists...lol

stronger now said...

lemaymd

Here is verse 17&18: 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


He said these things WILL follow those who believe. Not those who believe will do some of these things. If that's what jebus meant he would have said it.

Also what a wonderful way of saying that the words spoken by jebus need you to reinterpret them to mean what you feel they should mean in order for them to make more sense. You'd think that the son O' god could have been more clear?

But don't let it bother you too much Paul made the same mistake.

Dogmeat said...

I've thought the same thing though not with alcohol. I've wondered how they would react if you poured them a nice, tall glass of window cleaner, dropped in a few ice cubes and a parasol, then pushed it over the table to them.

I also figured they'd respond with that "don't test God" passage, but that's a bit of a cop out isn't it? "I'll do all these things and give you powers, but don't you DARE ever try to use them!"

Anonymous said...

The attitude of the Bible in general is that wine is a good thing, in moderation. In one instance, a vine (don´t ask) is quoted as boasting of producing wine "which makes men and God merry".

Jesus made wine and used it as a symbol of his blood, the vineyard is used in at least one of his parabels, he also said "I am the vine and you are the grapes" (which is actually very funny); even Paul (notorious sourpuss that he was) recommended a fellow Christian to drink some wine "for his stomach".

Whereas in Proverbs, drunkenness and alcoholism are sharply condemned. It is not the wine which is considered bad, but excess. Which, for a change, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Ricky said...

Yeah, forget the wine. Poison or not poison... It can be argued both ways. You real Christians should just drink some REAL poison. And yeah, as someone else said, you're not testing God, you're testing yourself. Are you a real Christian or not? Well, have a taste and find out!

(Note: I take no responsibility for people following this advice and realizing (just as they're in the throes of death) that they're not real Christians.)

Poltergoost said...

<<< So, why does Jesus, as his first miracle, transform water into wine? >>>

I'm sure it was actually "Welch's Grape Juice" according to the "Southern Baptist" and "Church of God" branches of the Christian Cult.

<<< even Paul (notorious sourpuss that he was) recommended a fellow Christian to drink some wine "for his stomach" >>>>

If I had been Paul, I would have stayed drunk 24/7.

Train'd 'n Ordain'd said...

Unfortunately, this entire thread becomes irrelevant when you realize that Mark 16:9-20 is VERY LIKELY not original Scripture but an addition at some later point. I'll never preach from it for this reason.

One might say that if this portion isn't trustworthy as original, how can any of it be?

The answer is that the methodologies used to determine the original text are themselves trustworthy - so much so that we can say difinitively that this portion is not original.

Btw, the same methodologies are used by Classicists to determine the reliability of their ancient manuscripts. We all follow the same basic processes.

Regards,
A Christian

.:webmaster:. said...

T&O, you haven't revealed anything most of us didn't already know. However, if you open your Bible right now, you'll notice that those verses are still there. It appears Christians are reluctant to simply erase the various sections that have been deemed suprious.

I wonder why?

stronger now said...

T&O,

Do you explain to your congregation how unreliable the bible really is?

stronger now said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Train'd 'n Ordain'd said...

>> T&O, you haven't revealed anything most of us didn't already know. <<

I have no doubt that I am preaching to the choir considering that this is an 'ex-Christian' site, but I am still going to argue along lines that we all understand.

>> However, if you open your Bible right now, you'll notice that those verses are still there. It appears Christians are reluctant to simply erase the various sections that have been deemed suprious. <<

True. But who would have the authority to omit the passages? That is an interesting question. As are as I can tell all monder translations make a note something like "The earlies manuscripts do not have verses...etc..." to let the reader know that there is some problem with that section. I think that's a fair way to deal with it.

>> Do you explain to your congregation how unreliable the bible really is? <<

Your premise is incorrect. In fact, the Bible is incredibly reliable. It is the MOST reliable of any ancient work of literature - far and above all others.

If the need arose to discuss this passage or the one in John, I would gladly explain why those sections were not likely reliable witnesses and such would be a good education for the believer. I've got nothing to hide. Nor does the Bible.

Others may feel differently.

stronger now said...

T&O,

Why do you worry over who has authority to delete said erroneous passages? Stop being a ninny! Get a bible and start ripping out those passages that aren't supposed to be there. And rewrite the ones that just make no sense, like how god couldn't help win a battle because the enemy had iron chariots. Aren't you enough of an authority, being ordained and all, to take out those passages that don't fit?

I suppose that you could just hope that your congregation doesn't have minds of their own, bibles of their own, and secret questions that they are too afraid to ask others about. Are you so sure of your congregations blind loyalty to you and what you preach from the pulpit that you'd risk their immortal souls? I mean, what would happen if they started believing in the crap thats in the bible without you knowing about it?

I find myself at a loss as to how to explain to someone that thier own bible,, the "God Breathed" word of thier lard an slavior, is bullshit when they already know it and don't seem to care.