9/01/2007                                                                                       View Comments

God has some explaining to do

Sent in by Caleb

"OK, listen and listen good. I AM NOT ANGRY WITH GOD YOU SIMPLE-MINDED MOTHER-F@#%ER!" This is what I want to respond with every time one of my Christian friends explains what is really going on in my head. The following is copied straight from an e-mail I recently received:
"Caleb, I am most concerned about the fragility of your heart and soul. I believe you are angry with God because of your current circumstances, and I am praying for the Lord to provide a way out, but only if you want it. Just like He says- if you are a believer- He won’t give you anything beyond what you can bear. He is waiting for you, all you have to do is call on Him, test Him and see if the floodgates do not come wide open. I will personally be held accountable for your soul so please understand these are things I must do. I will not hound you, but know that I love you and pray for you daily..."

Now I know it all sounds well-meaning enough, but this person is always looking for a circumstance in my life that would show I'm better off with God. I don't get it. I mean worse shit happened to me when I was a believer. I used to get so upset wondering why God had forsaken me. I wondered why "He" wouldn't just move on my behalf. I secretly used to think I wasn't good enough, but now what should I think? Is the God of Love, the God that is Love, you know "love" like 1 Corinthians says is not jealous, and keeps no record of wrong. Is the God of Love gonna screw up my life to get me back to him? How messed up is that reasoning? You know the bible even says that God sends his rain on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. How clever, "He's" got all his bases covered then.

My wife recently miscarried what would have been our third child. About three months before this happened, I became an atheist. It was very upsetting at first, but for the first time in my life, I didn't get all distraught and depressed wondering why God allowed this to happen. I remember realizing..."dude, stuff like this just happens! It sucks, but I am still very lucky especially when compared to what life has brought many others. I have two healthy boys, and a beautiful wife." On top of that, I am healthy too.

My wife works in pediatric oncology at MD Anderson, one of the nations leading cancer hospitals. I've visited there. I've seen the hands dealt other people. I've seen the parents praying over their dying child to no avail. I know I am very lucky.

As a Christian I was taught that God rewards those that seek Him, and that God works all things out for the good of those that serve Him. That really made hard times even more difficult to endure. I mean where is the good in so many things that happen to God's supposed children. And this brings me to my point. I am not angry with God, because I know that "He" doesn't exist. However, if God was real, and I still believed in Him, wouldn't it be very selfish, arrogant, and indifferent to my fellow man if I wasn't raging with anger towards God? I mean seriously, even if my own life was great, look at all the stuff that the "all-powerful God" allows to happen. Billions have died in wars, genocides, and terrorist attacks. Millions of innocent children and adults have died of severe agonizing and debilitating diseases. Millions of people are physically and mentally handicapped from birth or accidents in life. Crime against the innocent runs rampant in our society. We are plagued with parent-less children, homeless people, and drug addicts. Not to mention that we can't trust our own government half the time. Then, the mother of all of it... HELL! One thing I like to emphasize to my Christian friends is the issue of love. I mean, if we see some psycho on TV talking about how he killed his wife because he loved her. You know the stories where the killer says that his wife / girlfriend was gonna leave him, and he couldn't let her do that, because he loved her? Therefore, he killed her. Everyone knows that's not real love, but isn't that what God does? If someone doesn't love Him or accept Him, He sends them to hell. I thought love kept no record of wrong, and was not jealous. Yet the bible - described "jealous God" that is also love, sure seems to hate those that reject Him.

If God was real, then it would be our duty as humans to be angry with him. I mean, "He" definitely has some f@#%king explaining to do right?

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55 comments:

AtheistMommy said...

There are countless times when a Christian throws in my children to the mix when trying to explain to me how god gives us gifts. One recently said something about pregnancy. Which I thought was funny since, isn't it said to be a curse for Eve eating that damn apple?

Half the time they don't seem to realize their own contraditions. I agree with you. I don't believe in any god or goddess but if one did exist they would be totally corrupted and therefore I wouldn't support them.

I'm an Atheist not an immoral monster. I think Atheists have a lot to be angry about, god isn't one of them. God is simply a tool used by those who have made most of us angry. Why is it so hard to understand?

I suppose this is just something that you'd have to expience to totally grasp.

stronger now said...

I don't think that christians realize how insane their deity really is. Or, perhaps, they do realize and are too afraid to admit it and then draw his attention.

What a terrible way to go through life.

Kinda like hideing in a closet from micheal myers and holding back a fart.

Caleb said...

Stronger now wrote;
Kinda like hiding in a closet from micheal myers and holding back a fart.


lmao!!

Caleb said...

to atheistmommy,
I'm so glad that an atheist mommy does exist. I wish there were more atheist moms in texas, because my job as an educator would be so much more fullfilling. It really bugs me that so many children, even now are being brainwashed, and presented only one option for belief. I'm lucky to be married to an atheist mommy myself. I am so glad that I have the opportunity to teach my children to think for themselves. Whether they choose my path or not, they will have ownership of their beliefs, and they will be happier for it. So it looks like you have two kids. I have two also, so there's four right there. Well, it's a start!

henry said...

Hi

I am a ex-pastor and still practicing Chaplain. As a chaplain I get to meet the needs of people without all the dogmatic churchy stuff.

Anyways, I agree with the feelings on this board. Yes it is true that Christians dont see the contreditions on their own words and it seems that "love" for them is getting you to church.

Which by the way give the pastor another person to collect a tithe from. Church is big business and 80% of seminary is teaching the pastors how to get more money from the people.

That is another story for another time.

The problem I see here though is that you all are dealing with the "evengelical" kind of christian, the one who thinks you are doomed to hell and they can "save" you.

Their interpretaion of the bible is very scewed and inaccurate. The hell they preach is a poor mistranslation, and most of the doctrine and practices of the church are right out of the pagan traditions they hate so much.

Bottom line these people are dopped into a big fat lie. And so brainwashed they cant see it if it bit them on the nose.

There are others out there, such as my self who do believe in God and Jesus. However we dont believe you need to 'believe' or do churchy stuff to be saved.

For us it is like gravity, you can deny it all day and you dont float away. Gravity is just a law of nature, and we believe that Gods grace is that same way, it is what it is and what we believe or dont believe doesnt change it.

We have a God who loves all equally.

And you dont even have to believe me :)

For what ever it is worth, I just want to let you know that there are those of us out there, who believe in Jesus and yet believe the church is nothing but lies.

Jeff P said...

Henry, thanks for your honest post. There are so many similarities in our "de-conversion" stories as are described in this personal story from Caleb.

Another interesting read is from Pastor Jack Good, called "The Dishonest Church" where he recalls 40 years of church employment with the conclusion that the congregation generally decides what they want to hear, and hires the right person to give the message they'd like to receive. His premise is also that the seminaries (academically honest ones, anyway) do teach seemingly heretical revelations regarding the problems with the old and new testaments, particularly the gospel origins and gnostic texts.

The problem comes when these seminarians try to get their first call--and the reality that people want to hear that "old gospel truth" stimies any further academic dialogue, and that their careers are generally seemingly tortured exercises trying to balance what they have been taught and what their congregations want to hear.

Jack Good, too, seems to be more of a deist who enjoys Jesus more than other church heads.

I think my beef with "the dishonest church" former pastor whistle-blowers at this point is then, why is this message still propogated, financially reimbursed, and heavily marketed to the masses? It seems to me that Pastor Good was made well-enough off during his 40 years in the paid service of the church, and now has made himself pretty well-off making money off the criticisms of his church--all the while probably receiving a fair pension from that church during his retirement.

Yes, money is to be made in the institution of the church. Sam Harris argues (I think quite well) that those who acknowledge that particular religious dogma is disingenious nevertheless allow, within their "tolerance," fundamentalist factions to enable and move and ravage the masses.

While I'd agree that it's great to allow people to suggest that there's this god out there who is just about love, and who loves everybody equally, one has to consider Sam's suggestion that somewhere, somehow, reason needs to triumph and the destruction needs to cease.

I, too was a Christian for 46 years, so I'm aware of the terminology. My wife completed two years of seminary, so we've had some fairly deep theological discourse. My mother in law is an ordained Presbyterian minister, and I think she feels much like you.

What should be the stance of a non-believer? Where do we cease to allow public policy of the neo-con "value voters" to be the law of the land? What should be our response to someone who humbly confesses that "yep the church is pretty wrong" but who is paid by that same church to promote the faith?

I ask respectfully, Jeff P

Brent Seth said...

to Henry; we don't believe you, but thanks anyway.

To Caleb; good post, I too have had many experiences with people "praying for me." I have always took this to mean that I was never good enough for their god, and so they must speak for me. If he were there, he would not need anyone to pray for anything, ever.

And as for those who suffer in life; great point. I become so angry when people credit god with their good fortune. Does that mean people who suffer deserve such pain? Shit happens, like many here have said, and sometimes good shit happens. An unexpected recovery from disease is great for that individual, but not an act of mercy from God. And most of the suffering experienced by people is from the actions, generally, of people or just bad luck. It sucks, its tragic, but have to play the hand we're dealt.

Dave8 said...

Caleb, I agree with you, if God were real, then there are many who should be outright mad at him/her/it.

I don't have a context for the word God, other than a mere "word", and no preconceptions on what a God should, or shouldn't do on this little planet... so, it's hard to hate what amounts to a "word" in my mind.

Quite honestly, it is the Christian who should be outright mad with their God of belief; that refuses to appear or show interest during mass murders, wars, famine, etc., he/she/it has not answered a single prayer or accomplished a single task that has been shown to be supernatural.

Really, what the Christian is mad about, is that they have been taught, if they think hard enough, all becomes "real". What they are mad about, is that being "real" as an "idea" in the mind, doesn't make it "real" in the physical external Reality. They are taught a noun "thing/idea", as a noun; "person", linking thought to the external physical reality as equals.

There is considerable discussion on what "ideas" can become "real" and which ones can't. I am still pondering a little of that myself... yet, I am pretty solid on asserting, that ideas are individually generated, and any idea that can be brought into reality through crafty work and knowledge didn't exist before; one is "manifesting" something, that didn't exist prior. Aristotle stated that the Universe is best understood in universal generalities, because the Universe is nothing short of "pure potential".

I have problems with Christians who are so egocentric, usually the younger and/or uneducated, that they demand that "all" should revolve around them, to include their personal beliefs. In short, an Atheist can't exist to them, without a Theist - pompous arrogance. Such, shallow notions cause a Christian to suggest/think that the Atheist is validating their theistic position; and is just in denial or not willing to accept the Truth of God.

My atheism, is not directed towards a noun "object", or "Person", it's implied based on my philosophy of life, and I remind Christians I meet from time to time, that my position shouldn't be confused with validating theirs, as if they were the only "Theist" in life.

In short, I am an atheist regardless of theism, not because of theism. That's a hard concept to get across to a young, Christian who only accepts or demands their position to be "Absolutely" true.

While supernatural theism is absurd because we live in a natural Universe and can know nothing more than Nature, natural theism, pragmatically speaking is the worship or veneration of Reality and is nothing short of semantic manipulation, where I may call the refraction of light rays through a cloud a rainbow, a natural theist may proclaim it as a "Natural" God(s) love.

I get along much better with Natural theists, because they at least have a grounded reality, and some want to perceive Nature from a position of hope and beauty... while I have no problem with that particular perspective, I don't like the use of the term God, because it has no context when used generically among other theists, a supernatural theist and a natural theist are not talking from a common understanding.

The word is totally ambiguous, and as you pointed out in another thread, God is now in the Texas State Pledge, which allows everyone to define the word as they see fit, thus, everyone should be happy... Unfortunate, that an "ambiguous" word, that is truly "undefined" has found its way into "policy", and other areas of government sponsored activity.

The state government is forcing God into the classroom, by continually placing the word on anything it can find, and then suggesting that those who don't want to recite the State Pledge, don't have to - making them Texas-Lite, or un-patriotic or loyal to their fellow citizens. The word God is once again going to be used as a divisive method within Gov't. That's analogous to bringing in a bunch of strippers into the classroom and telling all the children who don't want to watch a strip show to "sit quietly" (waste their educational time) with respect, and wait for others to be done with their daily entertainment.

And, while an educator is supposed to be able to "educate" a child, they are legally bound to "not teach"... if a child asks what the word God means as they recite the pledge, or use the word in some allegiance to the same; the teacher is not permitted to "answer" the question.

Educators aren't able to educate; politicians have entered the classroom, and restricted educators from nurturing a child's natural curiosity and inquiry.

In my humble opinion, "everything" taught to a child, which includes state "pledges", etc., in a public school; "requires", or places a burden of the State to define that terms used... to include the term "God", especially in a public institution where the term must be recognized by "all" students, whether they are religious or not.

The state is teaching children to blindly accept words that have no meaning, while the educators remain helpless. I thought about becoming an educator at one point, but have reconsidered the prospect, perhaps I may enter the collegiate realm as an alternative or help the wife give personal tutoring a shot - some parents, still desire their children to be able to think, it's the few as you suggested that are leveraging politics to suit their needs.

eris.discordia said...

Hey Caleb,

Your Christian "friend" made a statement that really jumped out at me: "I will personally be held accountable for your soul so please understand these are thing I must do."

Think about this for a moment. I'm sure every ex Christian on this site has had an experience with this kind of person. Thia person is a controlling, meddling, busy body who, in the right circumstances, can be quite dangerous. Believe me! I have known Christians like this, who feel it is THEIR responsibility to save the world! That is the mentality of those psychos who bomb abortion clinics and kill their children to "protect" them from the sinful world that may lead them astray!

My advice to you is to put some distance between you and him. I wouldn't answer his emails either, as this would encourage interaction.

Anyone who would take personal responsibility for another person's life, soul, other than a parent for a child, is unbalanced!

You have every right to be angry because this wacko is meddlesome and disrespectful. But be careful! Soon I will post an email I got from one of my "so-called' friends after he read one of my book reviews on Amazon.com. I did not reply to his email because he is obviously mentally unbalanced and I don't want to engage him in any further conversation. I could think of all kinds of nasty, smart-assed things to say, but I decided that it would probably put my beautiful family at risk. I too, have 2 beautiful sons living at home and I am so thankful that Eve took a bite out of that apple! ;-)

You have a family, that guy is nuts. Caution is in order here.

Good luck to you and yours!

Dave8 said...

Henry: "For us it is like gravity, you can deny it all day and you dont float away. Gravity is just a law of nature, and we believe that Gods grace is that same way, it is what it is and what we believe or dont believe doesnt change it. We have a God who loves all equally."

Note, the use of a natural metaphor for a transcendent supernatural entity. It's the attempt to use something like gravity in Nature that "exists", to describe something "beyond" Nature.

If Henry is a natural theist, and suggesting that God is of Nature and akin to a Natural Law, then, I'd only have a problem with a poor choice of words that describe Nature... however, Henry is a supernatural theist, who is conflicted between the very Nature Henry is living in, and his assertion of something "more" beyond Nature...

In short, Henry must "reject" the very Reality he lives in, to suggest there is more; denial of reality, no matter how well couched as a polite gesture/belief, it is still contradictory, irrational and possibly dangerous if the belief if used consistently to make "real" physical decisions in life.

In my opinion, the only reason "some Christians" are less prone to unhealthy behaviors than others, is that some don't actually "believe" with total conviction that all will be taken care of by their God/Jesus, and thus, they involve themselves as active agents in their own lives.

Personally, if something isn't worth relying on consistently (valid), then it really isn't worth worrying about.

Henry, if you have something more to suggest here, I'd be entertained to see what you have to say...

twincats said...

Henry said: ” Which by the way give the pastor another person to collect a tithe from. Church is big business and 80% of seminary is teaching the pastors how to get more money from the people.”

Testify, Henry, do tell!

Please write an article and submit it, I’m sure it would be very interesting and enlightening.


Jeff P. said: 'I think my beef with "the dishonest church" former pastor whistle-blowers at this point is then, why is this message still propogated, financially reimbursed, and heavily marketed to the masses?'”

You answered your question in the preceding paragraph; it’s what the masses want, it’s what sells!

Madison Avenue has nothing on these people; just like the ad men started molding very young children to be good consumers decades ago, the church has been doing it for centuries. Religion and consumerism aren’t things you think about, you just do them!

Jeff P said...

twincats: "Amen." I think my question to Henry in particular is that, "honest" ministers who go about their ministry knowing the fallacy of the teachings--how does one continue to propagate the "false" message, or to justify some lukewarm tolerance to the dogma in question?

I'm fairly certain the answer is "the money--it pays the bills."

I just returned from the bookstore here in a small Texas town and on the front window was a hardback copy of a work called "The Amazing Faith of Texas." Here's part of the Amazon review: "The Amazing Faith of Texas is an exploration in words and pictures of people and places that represent the strong, abiding belief that sustains faith-filled Texans. A belief that transcends the boundaries of religion. Transcends the dogma. Transcends the differences."

Personally I think these are lofty words without much meaning, and if the rubber hit the road, most of the people within these faith-filled communities would have to ignore much of their own dogma to accommodate the other folks. I'd love for someone, someday, to go to each of these communities with a standard 10 questions regarding their beliefs, and post them and see just how "transcendent" they really are.

Caleb said...

To Henry
I do appreciate your reasoning, and the non judgemental way in which you presented it. If you truly are that open-minded, I have two questions for you. Have you ever studied the pagan / astrological origins of the story of Jesus? and... Do you know how the sect of Christianity grew from obscurity? Study those topics, and get back to me. Seriously, I'd love to hear your take on it.

To Dave8,
I love the way you put things. I agree with your reasoning. I myself have always argued that it is not being an atheist that makes you angry with God. That is obvious. However, being an ex-Christian can definitely give you grounds to be angry with the "idea of God" that so many still push, preach and believe.

ExCHHCer said...

It's been my experience that when people tell me they are going to "pray for me," they aren't doing it for me, they're doing it to make themselves feel better, so that's usually my reply: "If it makes you feel better, go right ahead!" This generally sends them into a tizzy of assuring me that their prayers are for MY sake, not theirs, and my reply is: If you were really wanting to do something for ME, you'd respect my wishes and bugger off. Since you insist on praying to your god for me despite my wishes, you're obviously doing this for yourself. So again I say, if it makes you feel better, go right ahead. Most of them have never thought of telling someone they were going to pray for them as being inherently selfish, but this is how I view it. I want no part of their god, their beliefs, or their prayers, yet they insist on doing me this big favor! Seriously, folks, don't do me any favors and keep your prayers to yourself.

whitehawke said...

RE: "1 Corinthians says is not jealous, and keeps no record of wrong"

You really have to have more than a few screws loose to be a Bible bangin' Christian.

First off, I am not an atheist, Christian, Jew or Muslim. I can no more prove with scientific certainty that a higher being does not exist than I can prove otherwise. I do know with certainty that I do not find either the Old Testament to be anything more than a Bronze Age treatise on slaughter, imperialism, genocide and descriptions of an angry, JEALOUS and vengeful tyrant of a god. It says right in the Bible “RE: "1 Corinthians says is not jealous, and keeps no record of wrong"

Tell your friend he is full of shit and read below – your are lucky his “God” hasn’t killed you for your

First off, I am not an atheist, Christian, Jew or Muslim. I can no more prove with scientific certainty that a higher being does not exist than I can prove otherwise. I do know with certainty that I find the Old Testament to be nothing more than a Bronze Age treatise on slaughter, imperialism, genocide and descriptions of an angry and vengeful tyrant of a god.” It says right in the Bible “From henceforth know no man but I AM that I AM. For I am a jealous God and I will have no other God’s before me” The New Testament pretty much keeps its peaceful tone up to Revelations where it reverts back to magical monsters eating us (sinners) alive, mass murder on a unheard of scale and eternal torture after God kills us.

He is also a murderous God:

“The Israelites bitten by fiery serpents for speaking against God and Moses.”
“The Lord talks to Moses and says he will kill all of the Israelites”
“The people murmur against God and are punished by fire”
“(a murmur!)……….which angers God and Miriam is punished with leprosy”

He makes murderous laws:

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

Aspentroll said...

Holy shit, Whitehawke, chill man, chill.
Just sit down and apply a nice cool cloth to your forehead and you'll feel better in a few moments.

Caleb said...

to ExCHHCer;

I like that response. I'm gonna start using it myself. Thanks.

AthiestToothFairy said...

whitehawke wrote:
"Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night"
--
Whitehawke,
With all the god excuses you site to kill folks and/or plunder their whole town, isn't it amazing they had any 'righteous' people leftover to procreate?

Now about this wedding night stoning stuff.....

What if the couple had secret premarital sex before the wedding night?
What if her hymen wasn't intact for reasons "other" than having sexual relations?
What if she lost her hymen from being raped by their enemy during a battle, but didn't tell anyone about it until her wedding night.

Did she still have to die?

Sounds like they might have had to kill a large percentage of their 'virgin' brides back then.

So, I get the point of your post. To do these sins you speak about, would get you stoned to death.

I am curious however, as to what happens if one does more than one sin at a time.

Do you still get stoned to death, then say, brought back to life by god; just so they can RE-stone you for the next sin on their list?
I mean, it wouldn't be fair to a sinner of just one death-sin, if another person met with only ONE stoning-to-death, if they had committed several sins from your list here.

It really is astonishing how little value they put on human life in those days.
Make one mistake and the town folks saw you now, as the 'work of the devil'.

Isn't it funny how Adam and Eve made the biggest god-sin of all time, yet they got to live for hundreds of years and weren't stoned to death, while if one of these people from the OT days broke some stupid law, they had to be stoned to death post-haste.

Yes indeed, you christian fundies are sure right about your gawd....God sure is full of love and fairness and great consistency with his human creation.....NOT !!!


AthiestToothFairy

eel_shepherd said...

"...Now about this wedding night stoning stuff.....
"What if her hymen wasn't intact for reasons "other" than having sexual relations?..."

She was still fucked.

Ricky said...

whitehawke, your Bible quotes deserve an entire post to themselves. From what I get, God sure likes a good stonin'. I also remember a little while back, I read a bit of the Bible while bored in a hotel room. I picked it up and read a part about some bandit coming to a guy's house. The owner of the house, who was "righteous" and had a sex-slave on hand lent out his sex slave to the bandits, who raped her until she died. And the guy didn't feel bad at all. Well, that's about as far as I got.

Anyway, the Bible is filled with all sorts of crazy stuff, but I do give most Christians credit. They don't take the Bible seriously, themselves, unlike many in Afghanistan and Iraq who follow their holy book to a T.

Poltergoost said...

I went through christian counseling for years, trying to find practical solutions for my problems at the time. Christian Counseling never worked, and the Holy Spirit never intervened for me at all, so christians cannot blame man for that.

It is "JESUS" who failed to comfort me. JESUS was the one who failed.

I finally got in with a "Secular Counselor" after struggling with christianity for many years. This person been able to help me reach new heights in my life.

Then this former christian friend of mine told me a few months ago to get rid of my current therapist, because she was leading me down a bad path, which would lead to consequences one day. He told me that "People who live in sin" will prosper, but they will face consequences one day for their actions".

I asked this same "Former Christian" friend, "Why should I sabotage all of my success based on your christian belief system" that never gave me frutiful and productive results?"

He told me that it didn't matter if I was getting "Fruitful and productive results", that having the truth was more important. What an idiot!!!!!!!!

Funny how so many ignorant christians think that they know more than what someone does who has a PHD in Pyschology.

That is a prime example of just how nosey some of these assholes are. They cannot stay out of other people's business.

Most christians need to get a life.

Poltergoost said...

RICKY SAID:
"whitehawke, your Bible quotes deserve an entire post to themselves. From what I get, God sure likes a good stonin'. I also remember a little while back, I read a bit of the Bible while bored in a hotel room. I picked it up and read a part about some bandit coming to a guy's house. The owner of the house, who was "righteous" and had a sex-slave on hand lent out his sex slave to the bandits, who raped her until she died. And the guy didn't feel bad at all. Well, that's about as far as I got"



I don't know why in the hell some of these christians who post on here even bother quoting "Bible Scripture" in the first place.

It isn't going to make a difference to most of us who post on here. The Bible is a stupid and retarded book.

It means nothing to me. I laugh at scripture anytime I read it, because I see just how stupid it really is.

I'm sure some christian nitwit will post scripture on here anyway, just in an attempt to try and manipulate.

Christians cannot see just how much they are losing the battle, and how stupid they end up making themselves look.

They give their "God" and Jesus "No Credibility". They make Jesus out to be an idiot just like them.

The bible teaches people how to be stupid.

Caleb said...

To Poltergoost,
I like hearing reference to scripture, because it helps me to build an arsenal to use against coments my Christian friends make. I agree with you that scripture is often hilarious, and is just mythology like all other religions, but in America I think we need to be able to respond intelligently to Christian propogana. If we can use scripture, as has been my experience, they can't respond. They are always dumbfounded when can use the hilarity of the Holy Bible to support m atheism.

btw... How did you go about finding your current therapist? I have been wanting to find one myself, but I don't know where to start.

Samantha said...

http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/1/

If you want to get to know Jesus through one of his latest and most intimate revelations, start with the 1st conversation Jesus had with the recipient of this charism (link above). It all started September 20, 1986.

I pray that God touches your heart enough for you to recognize his words. If you belong to Him, His call will move you to stay close to Him. If you cannot yet hear or recognize His voice, plead for mercy for all that you've done wrong. He cannot resist a truly repentant heart and His love and mercy will come rushing to your call.

May God bless you!
Sam

Caleb said...

To Samantha,
I checked out the site... don't know why, but I did. I admit there are some Christians that are more reasonable sounding than others, but the problem is not with hypocrites or people who have done me wrong. My overall experience with Christian people has been good. The problem is with the basis of truth around Jesus. There is none. No matter how you look at it, or describe his words or who he really was to you. The fact remains that it is likely that historically the Jesus the Bible describes never even existed or if he did, he was just some antisocial cult leader. Are you really so brainwashed that you don't see any rationale behind a decision to become an atheist? Do you really see it so black and white that if you don't accept Jesus, by default you are following Satan? If so, how sad for you. But I'm not mad at you. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

Curious George said...

Atheism, has multiple definitions, one of which is; "a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".

Someone suggesting they "lack" a belief in a god, or that they refrain from making any positive statement towards the subject matter; doesn't remove them from the broad atheism umbrella.

Even agnostics fall under the umbrella of atheism, they don't ascribe to a belief in a god, because they base their position on the possibility of what could or couldn't be; not on what they "personally" know.

In the end, no matter how one wants to couch their position, they will either lack a belief in a god(s), or they won't, it's a binary system on this broad level.

Now, under the broad umbrells of theism and atheism, there is much separation on how and why people come to be where they are.

Samantha said...

To Caleb,

Jesus is Love, why would you refuse Love itself? There is no reason to being atheist Caleb, this is likely the most irrational thing a human could do. To completely deny their Creator's existence.

Caleb, Jesus is real, more real that you and I. He is the source of life itself, try to seek Him with your heart. He is waiting so eagerly for everyone to return to Him.

As you can see from "http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/565/" Jesus says:

"had I to return just for your sake alone to redeem you, without the slightest hesitation I would come and repeat My Passion, for your sake alone!"

Caleb, He truly loves you this much. He knows everything about you, everything. All your pains, your hurts, your anger, your impurity, your desire for love itself. I tell you there is only One who can satisfy your desire for love and His name is Jesus.

Try not to surrender to tepidity, to distrust, to rationalism, to materialism, to doubt,... These are not from God, seek humility Caleb and honesty with yourself. Be completely honest about all that you know about yourself and share this knowledge with Him. He can break the chains with but the flicker of a thought...if only you would ask Him.

God loves you Caleb, please don't turn away from His offer...

May His hand touch and soften your heart,
Sam

boomSLANG said...

Curious George: Even agnostics fall under the umbrella of atheism, they don't ascribe to a belief in a god...

Since "agnosticism" deals with knowledge, not "belief", there can thus be agnostic believers(Theists, Deists, etc.), as well as agnostic non-believers(Atheists)

The common denominator is lack of certainty, when it comes to knowledge of whether a "God" exists, or not. For instance, Samantha(above this post) is a perfect example of an "agnostic believer". She merely affirms the consequence(logical fallacy) while claiming to "know" with absolute certainty that the biblical creator god, "Yahweh", exists. However, like most teenaged evangelists, she only offers anectodal evidence in conjunction with revelation, which is nothing close to being objective.

freethinker05 said...

Dear Samantha, I took your advice, and to my surprise I am now a true believer. It feels as though all the weight of guilt has been lifted from me. Now I even look forward to dying, because this life doesn't seem important anymore, except for preaching the truth of Allah, and his Messenger, and the Holy Quran to be truth and eternal life for anyone who accepts Allah (Great be his name) and thanks to you Samantha I will see you in paradise. May Allah bless the rest of your days on this earth. Best retard, Roger

Astreja said...

Samantha: "Jesus is Love, why would you refuse Love itself?"

That's what your beliefs say. I, personally, do not believe that Jesus is Love. Love is love. Please don't sully the word by associating it with a mythical preacher who cursed fig trees, called a woman a dog, and threatened people with hellfire.

"There is no reason to being atheist Caleb, this is likely the most irrational thing a human could do. To completely deny their Creator's existence."

It is eminently rational to not believe in the existence of an unproven and undetectable "creator".

It is intellectual suicide to claim to hold knowledge when what you actually hold is belief.

"He is the source of life itself..."

Bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Some people need to be a little less arrogant in their beliefs, to be sure. At the same time, though I no longer believe in a God, I have a hard time insisting that people shake free of their notions of a benevolent creator. Life is hard and painful at times, and we gotta do what we gotta do to keep us sane.

- James

.:webmaster:. said...

I agree, James.

That's why I have a shrine set up for my house pixies.

My imaginary invisible friends keep my sane.

Caleb said...

What you have to realize Samantha is that atheism is not some demon that makes you reject God. Atheism is a term used to describe a lack of belief in a god. As an exChristian however, I do reject your God (and all gods for that matter since I'm also an atheist) for many reasons, but especially because of the ways that love is given a bad name by the bible. More than that though you have to realize that as an exChristian, ex Youth pastor, ex Ministry Director I have already tried every possible method you throw at me for holding on to my faith. I've heard all the words, I've cried out to God, I've fasted, I've done it all. Once, you set your mind to experience God without accepting a substitute for "him" moving, you see how empty and pointless such acts are. Samantha, you need to research what you believe. Learn of it's Pagan origins, learn how it was violently spread from obscurity. Study to show thyself approved... if you will. Set yourself free from that metaphysical God prison your mind is trapped in. It's funny how once you do that, a whole new world of truth and freedom opens up to you. I promise, you will be happier for it.

Bill said...

Caleb said,

"If God was real, then it would be our duty as humans to be angry with him. I mean, "He" definitely has some f@#%king explaining to do right?"

Very powerful statement.

Caleb you mentioned your wife working in pediatric oncology. I work in a trama center with a pediatric cancer ward. As an xray tech I see everything in the hospital from busted bodies involved accidents to children battling cancer. Your mind learns to adapt to almost everything, but I will never get used to seeing a child going through chemo.

There is one little girl in particular who's face I will forever see in my mind. She was this Indian girl with these huge brown eyes. She battled luekemia from age five to 11 when she finally succumed. Her disease made her a regular fixture at my workplace for all those years and robbed her of her childhood. I never once saw her smile. She tore my heart out each and every time I saw her. Chistians attest to this great sacrafice of Jesus on the cross, but that wasn't fucking shit compared to the suffering of this innocent child.

Samantha you seem very kind but you must get in touch with reality. For the above mentioned situation to occur is not proof of a loving Jesus. Oh shit you know what. This little girl was from India. No wonder Jesus did not deliver her from those years of misery. She wasn't a Christian. Oh shoot now I get it.

xrayman

twincats said...

ExCHHCer, you are SO right! I’d never really thought about it that way before!

Praying for people is what xtians do when they want to give the perception of helping without actually doing anything materially helpful!

I mean, if you can “help” someone by whispering a prayer on your couch during the commercial break of your favorite TV program, why would you donate your hard-earned money to a (non church) cause or use your valuable (non church) time to volunteer?

So selfless, eh? I’ll never thank anyone for praying for me again!

Curious George said...

BoomSLANG": "Since "agnosticism" deals with knowledge, not "belief", there can thus be agnostic believers(Theists, Deists, etc.), as well as agnostic non-believers(Atheists)"

Thanks for the input, here is what I was using to support my thoughts on the matter;

Agnosticism: 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
–adjective 3. of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
4. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic

BoomSLANG: "The common denominator is lack of certainty, when it comes to knowledge of whether a "God" exists, or not. For instance, Samantha(above this post) is a perfect example of an "agnostic believer". She merely affirms the consequence(logical fallacy) while claiming to "know" with absolute certainty that the biblical creator god, "Yahweh", exists. However, like most teenaged evangelists, she only offers anectodal evidence in conjunction with revelation, which is nothing close to being objective."

I emphasized the atheist agnostic, based on a skepticism that places uncertainty on an individual's human ability to know/define their individual/personal relational experiences in life. In short, this position asserts/affirms one's one's inability to currently know, or ever know anything about the relational facts surrounding a God.

If Samantha claims to have knowledge of God, she is not skeptical of her ability to currently know, or ever know if a God is factual. Thus, while she may try to hide behind the title agnostic, while claiming belief; it is contradictory, or as you put it a logical fallacy.

Now, I can't deny that there are a herd of people who take titles and make statements that contradict their position.

When I see a person suggest they believe in God, but they are agnostic, its contradictory to me. The claim of belief/agnosticism is underpinned by the positive affirmation to the "existence" of a God. I have experienced some believers say, I believe God is a fact, but I don't have all the details, therefore, I am agnostic regarding all knowledge of the God in question.

To me, the question that places one under the broad umbrella of theism of atheism, is upon the question of a God's existence alone. How a person got under those two umbrellas is a matter of inquiry; to me, I wonder if one got under one of those two umbrellas with forethought, reason, or just by basic natural inheritance implicit via birth, etc.

Here is what an objectivist would likely suggest towards the position of agnosticism.

Agnosticism:
--Genus: Position on the existence of God
--Differentia: The claim of non-belief in God and the non-disbelief in God - that the state of Gods existence is unknowable
Comment: This is an example of the evasion of the Law of Excluded Middle.

On Law of Excluded Middle:
--Genus: Logical axiom
--Differentia: A proposition is either true or false, but cannot be both or neither.

Since there exists nothing in Reality that is both true and false, objectively, there must be a contextual truth to every proposition. Agnosticism rejects this claim of objective reality, in that it evades accepting the terms of knowledge attainment.

On Evasion:
--Genus: Mental process
--Differentia: Intentional attempt to deny, overlook, or ignore information or ideas

Agnosticism, was born between the politics of theism and atheism, and in so doing, suggested a position of evasion on the topic of God and in essence, Reality, as a viable option for those who didn't want to get pulled into the political-religious fray.

However, evasion is the suggestion that one willfully suppresses their own knowledge of reality. While I can't know about someone else's belief, likes, dislikes, etc., I can surely make a positive claim based on my own personal knowledge on the existence of a God in my life.

Everyone who is mentally capable gets to choose whether to think, or not to think. Thinking is only the beginning, a person must be able to focus on a particular source or not.

A person can choose a position that evades making positive claims of their knowledge, experience, topic of idea. For instance, anger or guilt may prevent someone from thinking about a particular topic, by focusing their mind on something else; akin to changing the topic of a conversation in order to maintain perceived neutrality.

Avoidance and evasion of one's own knowledge & experience may be politically correct, but it's a rejection of the self and ability to know anything, personally.

I am an atheist, not because of what people like Samantha may suggest is a fact, or because of others who may suggest God(s) don't exist as a fact; I am who I am because of what I know, through my life experience. I do poorly chasing other people's rabbits/irrationality, in order to make sense of who I am.

What I find most helpful from others, is great discussion that allows me to place my personal life experiences and accepted knowledge into a more concrete context; as context allows us to make sense of our experiences in life.

I understand why many have the beliefs they do; and this post in no way is meant to attack the agnostic position, it's just what I have come to understand based on dictionary statements, and a little research.

I am an objectivist with a few twists, and don't concern myself too much on what I can't possibly know; I tend to focus on what I can know.

Hope you had a great weekend, take care.

boomSLANG said...

BoomSLANG: "The common denominator is lack of certainty, when it comes to knowledge of whether a 'God' exists, or not. For instance, Samantha(above this post) is a perfect example of an "agnostic believer". She merely affirms the consequence(logical fallacy) while claiming to 'know' with absolute certainty that the biblical creator god, 'Yahweh', exists. However, like most teenaged evangelists, she only offers anectodal evidence in conjunction with revelation, which is nothing close to being objective."

Curious George: I emphasized the atheist agnostic, based on a skepticism that places uncertainty on an individual's human ability to know/define their individual/personal relational experiences in life. In short, this position asserts/affirms one's one's inability to currently know, or ever know anything about the relational facts surrounding a God.

D8?

I wasn't clear; I think that I can avoid a lengthy exchange by amending what I said about "Samantha" being an "agnostic believer", to say that she'd never admit that she was "agnostic".

As long as "God" remains undefinable; as long as Theists cannot even agree on what "God" is, everybody is "agnostic" by default, as far as I'm concerned. Notwithstanding, I still have the freedom/luxery of saying that while I don't know if a 'generic' Universal deity exists, that I unequivocately do NOT believe there is such a thing.

Peace.

Caleb said...

I think we can at least all agree that if some kind of universal deity did exist, we can be 100% certain it is not the one the Bible describes. Although, I don't believe one does exist at all.

pammyg said...

Caleb: I am an atheistmommy myself and although I don't live in Texas, I do visit there. You see, my atheist daughter, who is married to her atheist husband lives there. They hang out with their atheist friends and have "fellowship" (sarcasm intended) at their Freethinker Atheist "Church" and at her University Freethinker group. At least in the DFW area, there are plenty of atheists! I attended a "church" service there and it was a riot!!

Once my other son and daughter move there, as they are planning to, you can add two more to the list. As for me, maybe someday I'll call myself a Texan. For now, I'll stay in Yankeeland with all the Catholics...

pammyg said...

Even though "Stuff like this happens", I wanted to say that I'm sorry for your loss. And I hope your wife is doing well. Great article, I am in complete agreement.

Curious George said...

BoomSLANG: "I wasn't clear; I think that I can avoid a lengthy exchange by amending what I said about "Samantha" being an "agnostic believer", to say that she'd never admit that she was "agnostic"."

Amen, brother...

BoomSLANG: "As long as "God" remains undefinable; as long as Theists cannot even agree on what "God" is, everybody is "agnostic" by default, as far as I'm concerned."

I understand your position, in view of universals and inability to assert a universal absolute for all time, and am skeptical that in our temporal bodies we will achieve such knowledge as well.

However, I prefer natural atheism due to lack of belief at birth to be a cognitive default starting position. Whereas, although one may be skeptical that anyone can ever attain universal knowledge, through both space and time beyond a temporal existence, one can make positive claims about universal facts. I exist, as a universal fact, and my existence will go down in the annals of cosmological history as an Objective Truth, part of the Objective Reality in which I reside.

For an agnostic, they are uncertain as to my claim of universal fact, as they are uncertain as to their ability to truly have knowledge of anything with certainty, to include their own existence. It is a position taken by the individual, one doesn't appear to naturally grow into this position, where they become skeptical of all universal facts, one has to adopt a sense of pervasive skepticism that doesn't permit the certainty of any universal fact.

It is interesting, that the requirement of universal absolute truth can be marred with a plethora of additional tests, such as; exists for all time, and over space matter, etc. And indeed, that seems to be what a Christian would suggest, God is today, as was yesterday, as will be forever.

These additional tests, placed upon the Universals by theists (and possibly others), is someone else’s' doing. If one were to entertain such a proposition, they may claim agnosticism, because of the tests placed upon the Universality predicate.

Where I have a problem I suppose, is that I don't care to accept the theistic proposition that all universals remain constant through all time and space; it's a proposition that can't be falsified, and to reject what a person can know just doesn't seem prudent, since it is that which we can know, that gives us credibility in our positions.

I have argued against this type theistic proposition, to show the absurdity of the universal test of; for all time and space, without change.

An objectivist or skeptic may arrive under atheism as non-theists, but upon different paths.

"According to the Objectivist epistemology, through sensory perception and a process of reasoning, man can achieve absolute knowledge of his environment. Objectivism rejects skepticism. As a corollary, it also maintains that anything that is not learned by objective, rational means is not true knowledge, rejecting faith as a means of attaining knowledge."

Of course, agnosticism is a form of skepticism projected towards the self. And, objectivism tends towards absolute certainty of universal facts, in such that, there are factual instances of objective truth, such as our existence, etc.

"Sensory perception is considered axiomatically "valid" on the grounds that it is self-contradictory to deny the efficacy of the senses as sources of genuine knowledge. (Objectivism argues that such an assertion implicitly relies upon the validity of the senses, since the senses are the only possible source of the alleged knowledge of their invalidity.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_epistemology

I stand initially guarded about knowledge claims of another person that I can not falsify, and do so, by validating myself as a responsible agent in the process of knowledge discovery.

To reject my senses, or place unfalsifiable tests required for true knowledge acquisition is not something I accept in my philosophy of life. It forces a perpetual skepticism of the self to know something with certainty.

Caleb: "I think we can at least all agree that if some kind of universal deity did exist, we can be 100% certain it is not the one the Bible describes. Although, I don't believe one does exist at all."

I agree, I am 100% absolutely certain, I have not at any point in my life, ever been presented with an entity as described by that of the Christian Bible, or any Abrahamic religion for that matter :-)

Albeit, I don't make absolute certain claims about the future; I am skeptical that I will ever be given an absolutely certain description of any God, by the supernatural theist, that can be both reliable and valid, which will allow me to identify such an entity were I ever to be present in its existence.

Now, my knowledge isn't complete, I do still learn, all the time actually... and if a Christian wants to proffer knowledge, then I am all ears, but that would seem to undo the need for faith ;-)

We each have our perspectives, and I respect that, take care all.

Peace

Anonymous said...

Curious George = Jim Arvo, Maybe?
Where is Jim Arvo ?

Samantha said...

Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:


I Am, rest in Me; all Heaven is full of joy, this is what you call the beatitude in its plenitude;

daughter, if souls only knew how wonderful it is to live in God, no one would be lost so easily; unless they chose to be lost like Judas; he chose the way to perdition, not that My Heart did not melt with sorrow every time I saw him take one further step away from Me; not that I had not prayed for him; not that I had not cried My Eyes out for him; I had opened so many ways for him to take, all leading to Me, but no sooner had he started one than he came out of it when he would realize I had laid it for him, for to sin he added rebellion, heaping abuses in his heart, for Me his God, when he realized that My Kingdom was not an earthly kingdom in earthly glory; he shut his heart and cut out our bonds and estranged himself immediately from Me; his senses of what is righteous or not was darkened and obeyed the ruler who governs the air;

today I am asking the sick like I asked the sick man at the pool of Bethzatha, 1 'do you want to be well again?' I can heal you instantly, and all Heaven shall rejoice and celebrate! My gift is free, so come to Me as you are, I shall heal you, soul, so that you can share My Kingdom and live in Me your God

boomSLANG said...

"Samantha" is back with: Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:[insert meaningless apologetic rhetoric]

Please, unblock your eyes and read these 'undivine' words: Regurgitating scripture on this website is utterly useless---like that of chicken shit a door knob.

Bye now.

Jim Earl said...

Samanta writes:

Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:

Jesus told his disciples: "Go out and bring those who would have me as their king, and for those who reject me, bring them and slay them at my feet."

OUCH! Some divive ruler!

SEO said...

A divine Q-tip of sort?

Seems to me that there shouldn’t be any barrier that we, puny humans, could put up if a god really wanted to talk us.

D Laurier said...

Hullo Samantha.
Just so you know, My ears are completely unblocked, And I hear quite well.

My heart is as soft as it has to be to continue functioning, If it were any softer it would be useless, and I would be quite dead.

I was a devout and desperate christian for 12 long and humiliating years. I wallowed in self loathing and guilt for my being alive. I was fully convinced that I was worthless trash that deserved to be burnt forever. And I fully believed that Jesus would save me if I just prayed a little harder.

No child should have to grow up believing such rubbish.

I finaly escaped from christianity when I was 21 years old.

I am now 41 years old, And quite happy with my life as an atheist.

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous said "Curious George = Jim Arvo, Maybe? Where is Jim Arvo?"

I've been alternately "on vacation" and buried in work, so I've been scarce. I've barely had a chance to see what's been going on around here as of late. I see Samantha is supplying more deep Christian insights.

By the way, I am not "Curious George". As a rule, I do not use pseudonyms. I've no problem with those who do, I simply choose not to use them myself.

Bill said...

D. Laurier said,

"No child should have to grow up believing such rubbish.

I finaly escaped from christianity when I was 21 years old.

I am now 41 years old, And quite happy with my life as an atheist."

One of the greatest gifts my parents gave me was the power to think for myself. They allowed me to make up my own mind as far as matters of religion were concerned. I can't imagine what a child goes through growing up in a fundementalist household. It was nice not feeling guilty having normal teenage urges and relieving them in a normal teenage fashion.

After a lifetime of failed attempts to connect with God/Jesus I find myself a content atheist at 44.

I spent the weekend with three couples whom were all Christians except for one of the husbands. They just couldn't grasp the fact that my life could be complete without this "Grand Purpose." They insisted I needed something to believe in. Why can't they realize when you reach the point of being an "enlightened athesit" the fear is gone and there is no greater peace.

xrayman

redtail said...

Well let me just say that i, for one, am glad to have you back Jim Arvo!

Caleb said...

Thanks pammyg.

Curious George said...

I accepted my atheism at 34, after coming to terms that I had never held knowledge of a God, just unverifiable information.

I am as well glad to see you Jim Arvo, hope you are well, and work tapers off for you. Will be great to see you back...

Well, it appears I need to level; I am Dave8... and yes, my episteme is that of an objectivist... at times, I attempt to prompt lively discussion amongst the regulars, because... well, I'm not sure Samantha and her crew are really up to the task :-)

Caleb, that is an awesome pic on your blog... if thinking ever becomes a crime, send me to jail :-)

Peace

boomSLANG said...

Okay, Curious'.... but I'll have you know that I had you pegged back on September 3rd...i.e.."D8?" = )

Peace.

Astreja said...

Samantha: "Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:"

I've read the Gospels, Samantha. To me, they are merely second-rate stories in a very old and badly translated book. They do not inspire me. I much prefer the Dao de Jing, Dhammapada, Hávamál, Völuspá, Prajñāpāramitā Hṛdaya Sūtra, Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra, and countless works of non-religious fiction. I have gained far more useful wisdom from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy than I ever found in the Bible. (Don't even get me started on the Foundation Trilogy or Atlas Shrugged.)

"today I am asking the sick..."

That's pretty arrogant of you, you know. Non-believers are not sick, although I can see them becoming so if they were to rely too heavily on the good graces of invisible beings.

eel_shepherd said...

Astreja wrote:
"...I've read the Gospels, Samantha. To me, they are merely second-rate stories in a very old and badly translated book. They do not inspire me. I much prefer..."

Astreja, we seem to be on a very similar wavelength. In an earlier post in this thread, you took the words right out of my mouth, word for word, when you wrote, "Jesus is not love; love is love." I wonder if you have ever read any of the stuff taped and transcribed of Nisargadatta, and what you thought of it.

Curious George, I had you made for one of the regulars, and had a shortlist of who you might have been, but you fooled me, as far as the #1 slot on the list went. As far as the comment that the Samanthas might not be up to the task of the lively exchange goes, I'll go you a step further --- I'm sure they're not up to the task.

Now for a bit of the heavy lifting.

Samantha, you are:
i] beginning your reckoning of yardage at the 1-yard line, not the goal line; and,
ii] apparently proud of it.

Both are positions to be tended to, if your goal is to reach people where they are, not where you imagine them to be. Objects in the mirror are always one yard farther away than they appear to you to be. That extra yard from the goal line that you arrogate to yourself, and point to as your faith, looks more to us like giving a Christian an inch so that they can take a mile. You haven't earned that extra yard; you just took it (or think you did). And until you earn it, no-one's going to take you seriously here.

When you say that there is a god who knows every hair on your head and knows everything about you, I just think of that as an exercise in simultaneous translation and I translate it into something that makes sense to me: that life is a fractal affair, and that at every frame of reference, from the smallest to the largest there are forces and parameters of nature that have the knack, feel, involvement, and expertise appropriate for action at that frame of reference. The life of each hair on your head is important to that hair. And the wind that can knock a bridge over in Tacoma is one that any of us could easily walk around the streets in. If this thoroughgoing sensibility at every frame from the micro to the macro is what you mean by god, well, that's nice. But it's possible to get by without it and just call it for what it is. "Things are a lot like what they're similar to; but they're exactly what they are," as the feller says. That there are no gaps in the operation of the big world says nothing more than that there are no gaps in the operation of the big world. That there is a place for you in this scheme of things is not the same as saying that there is a personal god who has your interests at heart. It's just a matter of that you fit into this scheme and are sustained by it and interoperable with it, for the moment; and the moment that you cease to fit with those big and small forces, your breath and being will be confiscated by them and you will be reabsorbed into them at levels of their say-so.

Off-topic now, here's my two cents on what atheism is. Atheism is a provisional operating principle that a god can be placed along with every other thing that gives no evidence of existing --- probably nonexistent.

As for Xtians who say they'll pray for you, but who wouldn't bother to piss in your ear if your brain was on fire, I quote the from the song, "...they'll stone you and then they'll say `good luck'..."