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10/24/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Who Deserves Heaven as a Reward?

By Atheist Tooth Fairy (ATF)

In learning about the oh-so-many flaws of the Christian dogma, one issue I rarely see come up in discussion is how the Christian God determines who deserves the 'reward' of heaven.

Now, I do realize that some denominations shun the concept of “Being Saved”, that the more fundamentalist Christians proclaim as a requirement to gain entry to God’s Heaven.

However, it seems the majority of Christians we see come in here tend to believe one needs to “Be Saved” or one will burn in Hell.
So for the sake of debate here, let us assume that an adult can't reach those Pearly Gates by using the ‘works’ method and one really must accept Jesus as one’s personal savior and/or be “Reborn”.

My first problem with this heaven concept, would be with the children who have not yet reached this “Age of Accountability”, that so many speak about.

Obviously the more common Catholic school of thought was, that if one was baptized (usually as an infant) that this infant would go to heaven if it should die. Without this baptism, the infant would be lost to a special place called “Limbo”.
I believe this Limbo dogma has been rescinded recently and all these babies are now safely in heaven.
Amazing in itself, that the Pope can move such ‘mountains’ with God, don't you think?

So I’m fairly sure that if any baby or young child were to die, that it would go right to heaven, but if not, then certainly God would not put them in the same Hell as adult non-believers.

Moving up to the next level now...

I think we can also safely assume that a murdered child/infant, who may not have even heard about Jesus, also wouldn't be sent to Hell.
When Limbo did exist in the minds of the Catholics, these same murdered children/infants (but unbaptized) would land up in this Limbo, but I’m pretty sure for everyone else, they would also go right to heaven.
In any case, I doubt any sect believes such children would land up burning in the fires of hell.

So now we covered the child issue of heaven, so let’s move on to some situations that pertain to adults now.

Let’s look at some hypothetical situations and try and decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't.

Situation #1:

If I were to murder a ‘Jesus Saved’ adult, would that murdered person go to heaven or hell. I think we can assume they are probably destined for heaven?

Situation #2:

Now suppose that I murder an "UNSAVED" adult. Well now things get a bit tougher to reconcile. Do we just assume that because they didn't have their full life opportunity to find Jesus and be ‘Saved’, that they have no destination, other than hell?

Situation #3:

Once again, suppose that I murder an "UNSAVED" adult. Oh but this time, we add a ‘fly into the ointment’. This time God knows that at some point in their normal human future, this unsaved adult would have found Jesus and been ‘Saved’. Thus, at the time this person was killed by me, they were not YET saved, so what does god do with this unsaved person that would have been saved; if I hadn't killed them prematurely and taken away their normal expected lifetime?

Sure seems they would go to hell, for they hadn't been Saved YET, and what one may have done in the future doesn't seem to count for much. After all, if we were to include all that would have found Jesus, anytime in the future, then why wouldn't God allow a billion years of time for us to find Jesus. Why do we get only several decades to discover this very important piece of information. He could have least given us a few hundred years to discover him, as folks in the early OT days tended to live.

Did he realize by reducing our life span that he cut us short in the time we had to find this Jesus?

Situation #4:

This time, let’s talk about my own fate for having taken another person’s life.

Suppose I kill an innocent person today, but a year from now I find Jesus and become saved through his 'grace'. The next day I get hit by a car and die suddenly.
Does this mean I get to go to heaven, even though I had killed an innocent person?
From my understanding of how this ‘saving’ stuff works, it sure seems I would get my heavenly reward, and be right up there with all the ‘good’ folks who hadn't murdered a soul.

Situation #5:

These little questions keep getting tougher, don’t they.
So this one won't be any easier I’m afraid.

Now let’s take two of these situations and combine them into one scenario.

This time around, I murder an "UNSAVED" adult on Monday, but one that God knows would have been Saved on Tuesday, as this person had already made plans to go to the ‘right’ church and was ‘destined’ to accept Jesus into their hearts.
Alas, what they may have done on Tuesday never took place because I killed them on Monday.

Once again, a year later I go to the ‘right’ church and find Jesus and become saved by his grace.
So now I’m Saved in God’s grace and earned my just reward of heaven.

The unsaved innocent person I killed can't enter heaven’s gates in an unsaved state.
Does god give this murdered person one last chance to repent right there on the spot?
Does god tell this former human, that he knows they would have converted in their normal human future, so they might as well see the light and convert right now, or suffer the flames of hell.
Bascially a last minute ultimatum, is being offered by God here.

It would SEEM if I kill an unsaved person, who in their normal future would have found Jesus, that this person is now destined to spend an eternity in hell?
I on the other hand, get my nice fluffy cloud (complete with harp) and bask for eternity in wonderful happiness, while the person I murdered is tormented in flames because they were too slow in finding this Jesus before I did-them-in.

I do have some further thoughts now that I’d like opinions on:

If we assume these children, babies and 'almost' saved adults, who met an early demise, get to go directly to heaven upon their death, then what was the point of their existence as humans on this earth?

What point is there for God to make us live as flesh and blood humans on this earth, if we all will exist for the rest of eternity (a very long time I must point out) as some form of spirit being?
Why not just create us from the start, in the spirit form we will spend all of eternity?

Where is the logic in the god requirement for most of us to suffer all the things that humans tend to suffer, in the course of one human lifetime on earth.
How is it fair that most Christains must suffer a full human existence in order to gain the keys to the locks of heaven's gates.
Why is it that children, babies and those who have chosen to be saved via Jesus, but who die prematurely, get a free pass to heaven without having to live out the normal human lifetime on earth.

If some get this free pass, then why don't most humans get the same free pass to nirvana.

If god's great plan/rules says we must begin life as humans, live out a full life on earth, and aren't allowed to skip this human step in the grand scheme of things; then how is it possible that a small percentage would get to bypass these rules of god's plan.

Doesn't it make a lot more sense if there really is a creator god out there, that he would create us in our eternal form right from the start. If we do then screw up, then he would just take our immortal lives away, rather than using this human stepping-stone process Christians claim is necessary; for reasons that baffle me.

20 comments:

Aspentroll said...

ATF:

You have made some very sound observations in your post.
I have thought of scenarios much like those you mention.
There must be many other scenarios which would pose problems about whether you get through the "Golden Gates" or not.
There's a guy who lives a few miles from me who is a "born again christian" and he told me that it only takes 20 seconds to be received into heaven. You must join his church and state openly when prompted by the preacher, "I accept Jesus into my heart".

That's it and you're in like Flynn. I asked him why a person who has been a total jerk, a criminal, possibly a
rapist and murderer, child molester and whatever other acts you can think of as heinous, would be able to gain heaven? He seemed a bit stuck for an answer but insisted that this is true.

This tells me something:

"IT'S ALL BULLSHIT", pure and simple, and he is living a deluded lifestyle.

I should have then asked him if he would like to go to the moon to get huge container of green cheese.
But he didn't believe the moon was made of green cheese, but he believes all that other cheezy stuff in the bible.

SEO said...

Jeffrey Dahmer is a fine example of an unsaved person who went on a rampage then in prison, before he was shanked to death, was ‘saved.’ Did he get to go to heaven?

What about his victims?

Some of his victims were homosexual.
Some of his victims were ‘unsaved.’

Aren’t they in hell?

But some of his victims were not homosexuals or unsaved. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves facing a serial killer. (Perhaps just bring god’s plan to fruition)?

Aren’t these victims in heaven – along side Jeffrey Dahmer - their murderer?

I'm with Aspentroll: "It's bullshit."

Steve said...

ATF - good points. As far as I know, as soon as you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are forgiven not only the sins you have committed - indeed the blood can still be on your hands - but you are forgiven the sins that you will commit. So to add a scenario to your post, you can still get into heaven after being saved if you commit rape, murder, or child molesting. You don't even have to ask forgiveness, you just need to acknowledge that you are a sinner and that you have accepted Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior.

I wonder too about the nature of heaven. What do you do there? I mean if everything is perfect there as so many preach, then nothing could really happen there as any change in anything would mean that it wasn't perfect after all. I guess you could watch all of the billions burning in hell for entertainment, but even that would be more change than would be available to your average heaven dweller.

Also, do you get to remember your earthly life in heaven? I would suspect not. It would be hard to concentrate if you had to remember the time you kissed your sister or some other event.

So what is the point of going to heaven? If you can't remember who you were and the future holds nothing new, why bother?

Hell, on the other hand, it seems would require some memory. I mean what would be the point of cooking up all of those souls if they can't remember what they did that was so bad? If you don't get to remember your life, you would simply be burning for no particular reason. A suffering amorphous blob that has only ever known constant pain.

The whole afterlife thing seems pretty ridiculous to me. You'd think that God could come up with a better idea for a reward...

Riley J. said...

Heaven is one of the major frauds. The view has changed all the time. The xtian catholic got rid of purgatory this year.

The buybull says little about heaven, yet there are many books written about it adnausium.

According the bible as a whole, no one is going to heaven anyway if there was one.

The biggest issue I have about memory in heaven is that when we die, our brain dies. If our thoughts are dead and non-existent, how can one be accountable? I hear from xtians that our soul somehow carries all those memories, but then our sins and bad thoughts would go too. No way one could be happy in such a place with thoughts and loved ones in hell.

Xtains say god does not want robots on earth. Yet, it seems like they admit they will be robots in heaven at jebus feet.

They know nothing of heaven except what they wish it to be. I wonder if the muslim heaven with 70 virgins is the same realm as jebus heaven.

Xtians now admit the heaven is what you believe it to be. One person's heaven is their wish to have others in hell.

Plus, most people believe in heaven, but have no idea what it is. It is truly their feel good story when faced with death.

Riley J.

Anonymous said...

Interesting post... I've got another question for the god-shouters: How long does it take to get to heaven? How long do you have to be dead in order to start the trip, never mind finishing it...

The reason for the question(s) is that I have had the (unsignal) experience of being dead - that's right - D E A D. Three times, to be exact.

I had a heart attack (atrial fibrilation) and was admitted to the CICU unit at a major (that's MAJOR) hospital. During the course of my stay, during which I received a stent and an ICD (Implantable Cardioverter Defibrillator), I died. Three times. Once while the stent was being implanted: my heart just stopped beating and I was brought back within 10 seconds or less. (I was wired up with an attending physician having his "finger on the button" during the procedure.)

The second time was when the Doc who headed up the Electro Physiology Lab had just finished describing to me what was going to happen in the EPS lab and that I might wake up with the ICD... He left the room and my heart quit. This time it took maybe 30 or 45 seconds to get me going again. The third time was when I was "moving my bowels" for the first time in two weeks - hospital food is AWFUL - and I "died" right then on the toilet. Fortunately the nurse/attendent was right there with me...

Yes, I did go to the EPS lab. Yes, I did get the ICD. Yes, I was dead - three times. I checked with my cardioligist just this past Thursday.

So my question is, if I haven't gone to heaven, and not even had a "near death experience" - WHY???

Did god not think I was dead enough? Did I not die permanently for some strange reason? It certainly can't be because I'm going to convert or something...

Optimalist thinker said...

This is an interesting post, but one that most Christians will refuse to understand, even if it becomes obvious. Over the years I went to church, I heard probably every thing in the post and every comment made here (like will I remember my husband when I get to heaven).
I still go to church (though I don't believe in god), and every once in awhile, I bring up some of these points to the pastor (who teaches the Sunday School class). I don't really know if he's just scamming everyone or if he really believes the stuff, but he usually avoids the question I present by answering the question he THINKS I meant to ask. For example, if I bring up the issue that the Declaration of Independence flies right in the face of submitting to every government as Paul advises, he will try to argue that America is the greatest country on this planet and then go on to say this is a Christian nation. Of course, he isn't giving answers; he is just bullying the truth into what he wants it to mean.

Wayne S. said...

Yeah we're the Christian Nation that went over to Japan and dropped a nice little care package and killed over 100k innocent people in about .075 of a second.

Isn't jesus just wonderful? It's hard for our infintesimal little minds to imagine just what those few seconds were like in Japan, as I sit in my Lazy Boy recliner with a beer beside me and a fresh box of Cracker Jacks, I can imagine the explosion, (not really) at first a giant flash of white light at the same moment an overwhelming flash of heat about 10 million degrees as all I can see and feel as intense heat as my very being becomes a molten mass of useless vapors and my last thought must be as I see all the innocent little children and my kin and I vaporize before my own eyes just how wonderful America the Christian Nation must surely be.

I was one of the lucky ones, I got killed instantly.

Yeah a Nation that follows Jesus how wonderful and kind we are.

I despise all religions.

stronger now said...

Good qustions ATF.

It really doesn't do any good trying to apply logic to understand the biblegods plans or intentions. If it exists,which there is no evidence that it does, then it is insane.

If it exists and is insane, we're all fucked.

eel_shepherd said...

AtheistToothFairy, checking off the inventory of infants-in-heaven scenarios, wrote:
"...So now we covered the child issue of heaven, so let’s move on to some situations that pertain to adults now..."

Not so fast, you left out a couple. What about an infant who croaks between the time the holy water leaves the pitcher but before it makes contact with him/her? And the flipside of that one, the case where someone accidentally knocks the water pitcher over and gets some on the infant, which then dies before the Aquarius-like cleryman could form the intent to baptise the little heathen or refuse to baptise it?

Hard cases make bad law.

liniasmax said...

ATF - interesting, as usual - the stuff you and the many others write/comment give me daily strength. I never miss it. But, I tell you (and others on this team) - getting my better half to buy into what I KNOW (and I said KNOW)to be the case - the case that there is no personal, creator God - and that there's definitely no Heaven (as your post demonstrates)... let me just say that Rome, Georgia wasn't built in a day and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to chip the stone away. ATF - did you say that your spouse is with you on this "ex" thing or not? And if she isn't, how often to you approach the topic? Silence seems to be the way to go - but it can make one want to scream. And I'm in no position to stick a bloody A on my t-shirt...

Liniasmax

karekare2112 said...

Hey, Linias,
Does it really matter if your "better half" doesn't believe as you now do? Must she think as you? Although it certainly drives me nuts that my wife continues as a believer, ignorance is sometimes bliss. To live deluded...well, welcome to the grand illusion, come on in and see what's happening,...Now perhaps I'm just assuming that your wife acts as mine, i.e., believes in all the buybull crap without actually tormenting herself to the point of ulcers for the worry of hell. If it's like that, then I see your dilemma. But if it makes a person better to feel that "Hey, no worries, mate, when I die, I'm gonna be floating around and feeling fine!"...if they actually think like that, then great, go for it. Just please, please don't go thumping your byebyebill in front of me.
Just my thoughts, can't say I know you or your wife. Me, I don't approach the wife with any of the things I know to be the truth about her religion. She doesn't try to convert me, either. But that does kinda make me wonder: Doesn't it worry her that if she DOESN'T somehow convert me, that SHE'LL be floating around out there while I'm burning up for eternity? Doesn't that bug her at all? Damn it, now what do I do?...

Ok, deep breath. Let's just be thankful we're not amoebas, right Linias? Cos sure, it might look like they have the life. Just kinda floatin' around, like some spirit in the sky, no problems other than a Georgia drought or a California wildfire. Then kablamo and they're off to never neverland. Maybe that's the best way to handle this world! Yeah, got it, thanks to our friend the amoeba! The secret of life: Don't give a flip about anything, then when death hits, it'll be more "not giving a flip about anything!" I think I actually teach some kids that have long since bought into this way of life. I swear they kinda just float around and don't really seem to pay attention to anything other than their Gameboy. Maybe kids are amoebas?...
Peace to you, my brother. And just remember: Sailing is hard to do without the wind. Don't know what the hell that means, I'm just making up shit to prove I can think better than an amoeba.

Anonymous said...

Wayne - "Yeah we're the Christian Nation that went over to Japan and dropped a nice little care package and killed over 100k innocent people in about .075 of a second."

Did you perhaps learn about what Japan did during the world war? If American had not dropped the bomb, Japan would have (most likely)continued the war and cause A LOT MORE people to be killed. I do agree that killing innocent people is not at all fair, but in this case someone must be sacrificed. If the innocents in Japan weren't the ones to be sacrificed, innocents in OTHER countries would have to be. It's up to you to decide which is more worth it.

AtheistToothFairy said...

liniasmax said...
"ATF - interesting, as usual - the stuff you and the many others write/comment give me daily strength.......the case that there is no personal, creator God - and that there's definitely no Heaven (as your post demonstrates)"
-----------
Lini,
I was also so HOPING to see some comments from the xtians that hang around our site, but alas, I guess the concept and rules of the xtian heaven baffles them as much as it does the members here?
Funny how the fundies are quick to defend the concept of us burning in hell, but vanish when the subject changes to deciding on which humans get to unlock those pearly gates.

They sure seem to chime in on just about every other post made here, but are mystifyingly quiet when it comes to solving the 'difficulty's' of who gets that fluffy cloud and harp !!!
Could it be they FEAR looking too close at this heaven concept, for if they do, they will quickly realize such a place could never exist, nor could any god reconcile the problems of whom to take into his heavenly abode?

When you had the role of apologist for your church, wasn't this heaven subject ever brought up in your discussions of god?
Perhaps it wasn't, and for the same reasons the xtians here seem to also avoid any attempts to justify such a belief to us ex-xtians.


"ATF - did you say that your spouse is with you on this "ex" thing or not? And if she isn't, how often to you approach the topic? Silence seems to be the way to go - but it can make one want to scream. And I'm in no position to stick a bloody A on my t-shirt"

Lini,
No, my wife is NOT in on this 'ex' thing, by any means!!
In fact, I'm quite surrounded by a few family members that have tremendous BLIND faith in their xtian sky god.

I will at times, wear T-shirts that poke-fun at their beliefs in things of the supernatural, but I'm not about to wear such shirts out in public, as that is just begging for trouble....LOL.

You and I have discussed before, the topic of how far we should go in an attempt to make these family xtians see the truth. Other than in the case of my wife, I do NOT make any attempts to convert them; for personal reasons I won't get into in a public forum.

In the case of my xtian wife, I still pose to her some loaded questions now and then, in an attempt to make her mind question the possibility that her blind xtain faith is baseless.
However, just like any deluded xtian is (when they don't know the answers), she will insist that some things are a mystery and only known to god and not meant for humankind to know until we get up to heaven etc..

I have heard her say countless times...."You can ask god that question when you meet him"
It doesn't seem to bother devout xtians, at all, that we are forbidden to know the answers to these questions while still on this earth.

Now I could understand being kept in the dark about certain knowledge if it was a threat to this god, but how could the xtian all-powerful god ever feel threatened by sharing knowledge with us lowly humans?
I mean, it makes good sense that our government doesn't share military secrets with it's population, because a country isn't beyond being taken-over by some enemy.

If all those powerful bad angels under Satan couldn't win a war with God, then why would this god have any fear of humans having their begging questions answered?
Is this god really some Alien from another world and like we see in sci-fi movies, they all have their weaknesses that can be overcome if one has the knowledge to take advantage of those weaknesses.

So either 'god' is really some superior alien life form that once visited this earth and could be overcome if one can learn it's weaknesses, or something is very wrong with this concept that the xtian god is all-powerful and all-knowing, or-or-or-or....there is NO GOD AT ALL to answer any questions, or fear us humans !!


ATF (who doesn't buy into aliens paying frequent visits to earth either, just for the record)

liniasmax said...

Hey ATF - if you get back here any time - thanks for answering - we'll catch up soon...Liniasmax

AtheistToothFairy said...

To those who commented on, "Who Deserves Heaven as a Reward"
Let me say THANKS for all the great feedback, alas, not even one xtian commented to try and justify this heaven of theirs, but then we expected silence from that audience.

Okay, some return comments back now:


Aspentroll wrote:
"You have made some very sound observations in your post......There must be many other scenarios which would pose problems about whether you get through the "Golden Gates" or not."

Thanks Aspentroll, and yes I agree, there have to be MANY scenarios one could come up with that would leave god with a huge dilemma on entry to his heaven by a certain human.
--

SEO wrote:
"But some of his victims were not homosexuals or unsaved. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves facing a serial killer. (Perhaps just bring god’s plan to fruition)? "

SEQ, one can NOT apply any logic to why certain good folks die early deaths, while the lowest scum of the human race keeps on living to a ripe old age, and then of course, we have the reverse case of this.
What possible god-standard could he be using to determine which of us must live out a full life; be that a good or evil person, and which get an early death; be that in heaven or hell.
It's all obviously RANDOM in nature as to who dies and who doesn't.

I use to hear the god-excuse that the 'good die young' because god needed them up in heaven and/or they were good enough to get an early reward of heaven etc..
If that were true, then statistics would show us easily, that good folks die far younger than non-good folks do. Putting aside the risk factors of an unhealthy lifestyle or living a risky life by one's chosen actions, then it all even's out and there is no supernatural lopsided data to show the good die young or the good die old etc.

Like it is with those who die from disease or conquer the disease, there is just nothing to show that some supernatural power is intervening in the course of human affairs.
Therefore, I see no reason to believe that god would take someone to heaven early as a reward for their belief in this Jesus chap.

---
Steve wrote:
"I wonder too about the nature of heaven. What do you do there? I mean if everything is perfect there as so many preach, then nothing could really happen there as any change in anything would mean that it wasn't perfect after all. I guess you could watch all of the billions burning in hell for entertainment, but even that would be more change than would be available to your average heaven dweller."

Steve, I often wondered the same darn thing. How would god keep us from being bored out of our minds if we live forever.
Perhaps we get promoted to god-status and he gives us a planet of our own to make lowly human life forms upon, and we then get to be their god.
Come to think of it Steve, maybe the xtian god is just one of MANY god's that the 'boss god' had already made from people already taken to heaven billions of years ago.
The god that xtians think to be the one and only god, might just be only some lesser god that once lived as a human.

Nah, but it was a fun idea to toy with...haha.

>"Also, do you get to remember your earthly life in heaven? I would suspect not. It would be hard to concentrate if you had to remember the time you kissed your sister or some other event. "

It would also be pretty hard to remember that someone(s) close to you are burning in hell while you're floating on your special fluffy cloud.
How could the average person be happy, knowing a loved one is writhing in flames, just because their brain couldn't believe the lame evidence this god presents to us.

>"So what is the point of going to heaven? If you can't remember who you were and the future holds nothing new, why bother?"

Sounds pretty darn boring, doesn't it, but I'm sure the xtians here can't comprehend that they'll be like a bunch of goldfish in a tank, who have short term memories and never seem to get bored by doing the same thing day after day.

>"Hell, on the other hand, it seems would require some memory. I mean what would be the point of cooking up all of those souls if they can't remember what they did that was so bad? If you don't get to remember your life, you would simply be burning for no particular reason. A suffering amorphous blob that has only ever known constant pain. "

I totally agree here.
One would have to recall one's earthly life and 'mistakes' if one is to understand why one is burning in agony.
I'm also sure the pain would become the norm, but then again, how does something not ever burn-up when exposed to high heat for trillions of years etc..
Perhaps every hundred years god puts you into a new spirit body and you start roasting all over again.

Sure doesn't make much sense to inflict pain upon someone that can't recall what they did, so wouldn't it be far better for all concerned, to just kill off the evil humans.
Far less perpetual maintenance that way for god, don't ya think.
---
Riley J. wrote:
"Heaven is one of the major frauds. The view has changed all the time. The xtian catholic got rid of purgatory this year.
The buybull says little about heaven, yet there are many books written about it adnausium."

Riley,
I had the biggest laugh when I heard the pope worked things out with his god to release all the souls in purgatory.

Now the catholics have the same problem as most other xtians, for the problem of what to do with folks not good enough to enter heaven, but not wicked enough to burn in hell.
No xtian has ever answered the question; that if our eternal fate is only a binary 1 or 0, then what does god do with the 'fractional' folks who don't fit that binary scheme...lol.

I often wondered throughout my life why the bible is so silent on our wonderful reward.
If this god really wanted us to convert to his ways and easily threatens us with his hellfire, then why not entice us with many details of this heavenly life we'd get in return to our devotion to him. The answer is that the writers back then weren't smart enough to figure out how to make-up a legit looking heaven in their bible writings.
They had a hard enough time communicating earthly things and those lame miracles they made up (or stole from other god beliefs), let alone describing what things would be like in a magical heavenly abode.


>"I hear from xtians that our soul somehow carries all those memories"

If we really had souls that contained all our memories, then when the person's brain suffers a disease and their memories are lost forever, does that disease also take away memories from the soul to?
If the soul remains untouched and still holds all those memories intact, then why doesn't this soul transfer those lost physical memories to another part of the brain to fill in the memory blanks.
If the patient can't recall what happened yesterday, or an hour ago, does the soul retain those memories anyway and if not, then are those memories lost forever.

The problems of having a soul are many, and memories are just the tip of the iceberg here.
---
Anonymous wrote:
"Interesting post... I've got another question for the god-shouters: How long does it take to get to heaven? How long do you have to be dead in order to start the trip, never mind finishing it..."

Anonymous,
I'm quite familiar with NDE stories, as it was once a favorite topic of mine.
I have already made some comments on another post about your question, but let me answer you here as well.

The problem, as I see it, is that anyone who experienced something 'strange' during one of these NDE's was in fact, NOT DEAD.

Just because the heart stops (and your brain is starving for oxygen), doesn't define 'death' as it once did long ago. It takes time for the brain to die and once it's truly dead, you won't be making a come-back, or if you did, you'd be a veggie.

So while you were in the process of dying, you were far from dead or you wouldn't be hear telling us your story.

Some claim during an operation where one is suppose to be out-cold, to hear the surgeon and nurses talking. What does that mean really.
Either they weren't as out-cold as the doctors thought, or they formed false memories of what they thought was going on during their surgery.

How do we explain children who come close to drowning in ice cold water, but survive after being under water for extended periods of time; that normally would kill a person.
Surely they stopped breathing all that time, and again, while we used to think a person was dead who wasn't breathing, we now know this isn't always true.

As I've said before, many experiments have been done in operating rooms, where a few claimed to have NDE's and thought they were floating far above their bodies, but they never saw what had been placed high up in the room that surely would have grabbed their attention if they really had been floating up there, as they were sure they had been.

If there is a soul within us, why would this soul abandon it's physical home before that home was completely dead.
Some would suggest that if this all important soul part of us were to jump-ship, that it would actually cause the person's body to die, as they would seem to be very connected to each other in this life.

If a soul can move outside the body so easily instead, then one would think it would happen all the time and then one has to wonder what would trigger the soul to leave when your heart stops but your brain isn't dead yet.
Does it have some fear that if you die and it didn't get-out, that it would perish to?

The whole soul concept just doesn't wash.
NDE's are clearly an effect of a brain starting to die and the things one see's are very much part of what one is expecting to see; or has been brainwashed to expect.
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Optimalist thinker wrote:
"This is an interesting post, but one that most Christians will refuse to understand, even if it becomes obvious"

Well Optimalist, it seems you were quite right and that NOT ONE CHRISTIAN had the nerve to try and explain this heaven and who gets that reward. Funny how they feel-the-need to chime-in on just about every other subject we present here.

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Wayne S. wrote:
"Yeah we're the Christian Nation that went over to Japan and dropped a nice little care package and killed over 100k innocent people in about .075 of a second."

Wayne,
I was going to answer you right away, but a certain anon poster beat me to it.
However, I've heard this argument of yours all my life, and while dropping such a terrible bomb had horrible consequences to the victims it affected, anon is correct in that japan at that time wasn't about to surrender unless something drastic happened that would allow them to 'save their honor' while surrendering.
Without changing history by some supernatural means, we can never know for sure how many would have died in-excess of those who died from this A-bomb, but most historians and tacticians would agree that the total of human life was actually saved by the acute ending of this prolonged war.
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stronger now wrote:
"It really doesn't do any good trying to apply logic to understand the biblegods plans or intentions. If it exists,which there is no evidence that it does, then it is insane.
If it exists and is insane, we're all fucked."

Stronger,
If there is a heaven, it must be one mimicking some 'B' Horror Flick of old.

Science Fiction is quite imaginative at speculating what advances might be forthcoming in the distant future for us, but it would take far more than even their imagination to solve the MANY problems inherent with us both having an afterlife and living in some fantastic heaven to boot.

The concept of us having souls not only has zero proof (though many have tried to prove it), but how could such a non-material essence live on after our bodies died. What laws of the universe would such a soul follow. There are just too many 'technical' problems with the soul idea to convince me such a thing could actually exist in us.

If we don't have souls inside us but god and heaven still exists, then this god would have to reconstruct us in the future, and not just our bodies, but our minds as well; complete with all the memories we had of our lives on earth.
Does god have a sample of DNA for every human that existed throughout all time?
Do our souls continually transmit our memories into some super-duper god computer, so he can restore them into a new body?

What age would god make each person, if he could do all this.
What if you were an infant...would you be an infant for eternity then?
What if you were very very old...would you be that old looking in god's heaven to?

There just are far too many problems with the entire concept of us going to some heaven that god created, after we die.
So I wouldn't worry too much if heaven is insane, as it's a darn sure bet that it can't exists for us, as the concept itself is beyond insane.


Thanks again folks for adding your own thoughts to my own !!

ATF (who wonders why our latest taunting fundies, have ignored the heaven question I raised)

Jesus was a Con Artist said...

"ATF (who wonders why our latest taunting fundies, have ignored the heaven question I raised)"

Well as far as they are concerned, what God does is fair, because his name is "GOD".

So therefore because his name is spelled "G-O-D" that automatically gives him the right to do what he wants to no matter how unfair it may seem to us poor human beings.

After all he did tell us not to lean on our own understanding and that he was working all bad things together for a greater purpose.

Besides, He is "God" and he can do what he wants to do, and since he is "God" anything that he chooses to do is right no matter how unfair it is, because "God" goes by his own set of rules.

I'm sure that is the kind of logic most christians would come up with.

Jesus was a con artist said...

So if anyone commits a murder or other crime, just tell them that you are "God" and hopefully they will let you off the hook. Because being God excludes you from punishment.

However, one word of advice. Just make sure you are able to back up your claim in court by turning the judge and jury's water into wine or turn the baliff's weapon into a snake or something.

stronger now said...

"...since he is "God" anything that he chooses to do is right no matter how unfair it is, because "God" goes by his own set of rules."

When christians talk about how good their god is it remindes me of a Twilight Zone episode

Don said...

Well since my name is spelled, "D-O-N", and I have at least 2 of the same letters in my name that God does, do I get any special rights like God does for doing wrong?

Surely having 2 of the same letters in my name that God does, would give me some sort of privilege like being able to get off the hook for robbing a bank or something.

After all 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now wrote:
When christians talk about how good their god is it remindes me of a Twilight Zone episode
---
Stronger now,

I do recall that Twilight episode. It was one of the more memorable one's for sure.
It was almost like a take-off from the old story about the King being naked and only a child would admit it out-loud.

You hit the nail on the head with your comparison here.
No matter how awful this god behaves, xtians either fear the fires of hell, or so badly want eternal life in bliss, that they will overlook any and all imperfections in their god.

Clearly an example of this is when an innocent child dies a terrible death, the xtians make excuses for why their god would allow it; if even by god's own inaction to intervene.

Of course, xtians will give lip service to the problem and state that god needed that child to 'come home' to him.

That certainly begs the obvious question of; why did god bother to create this child if only to steal it back so early?
If god has some strange purpose for such children up in his abode, then I'm darn sure he could create "heavenly-children" that would fill that purpose. Meaning, children that never needed to live a human existence that is.

I really don't know how these xtians can overlook the vast amount of problems not only with the god-rules of their faith, but the tremendous plethora of other problems that their faith insist they ignore in order to 'serve' their naked-king god.


ATF (Who wonders what yummy popcorn, stronger is making for all his friends here today?)