2/12/2008                                                                                       View Comments

Once a Baby-Killer...

For some reason, think their is against and baby-killing. I don't get it! There are lots of examples to the contrary in the . I mean, who has killed more babies than the ? Have you read these passages?

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt..."

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Isaiah 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

I ask you... How can Christians carry that book around and swear by it's contents, but have absolutely no fucking idea what it says? Amazing!!!

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67 comments:

Anonymous said...

Abortion is still wrong!

Anonymous said...

lulz.

Christianity= epic phail.

Anonymous said...

ye must be circumsized or enter into the hell fire

Anonymous said...

"Abortion is still wrong!"

Prove it, newfag. Your God supports killing babies - not simple abortion, but brutally murdering already-born BABIES and CHILDREN. Ripping them from their mothers' arms and crushing their skulls. Driving swords through their little bodies. Throwing them from cliffs to the jagged rocks below. Eviscerating pregnant women and dismembering the still-living fetii within them.

KILLING BABIES GLORIFIES YOUR GOD. Your "holy book" says so itself.

(Of course, then it makes sense why you would think that abortion is wrong. If there aren't any BABIES - living, squirming, crying, sensate infants - to kill, how would your "God" get his glory?

And you people have the nerve to accuse pagans of child sacrifice, when YOUR OWN GOD revels in it!)

Anonymous said...

Stormwarden here, and the hypocracy of the fundies is unbelievable, given the blood-stained history of Gawd. I read the Bible in its entirety, and that is why I quit.

I am glad I did.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree that abortion is wrong. If you've ever seen a woman having an abortion... it's just disturbing. It will turn your stomach. The fetus will literally try to avoid the instruments used to kill it until it is ripped to pieces. There's nothing okay about abortion, and unfortunately religious organizations seem to think it is the righteous or "Godly" thing to do when they rally against abortion. It's not about God or religion, it's about appreciating the value of human life.

1st Anonymous Poster said...

1st Anonymous Post:
"Abortion is still wrong!"

2nd Anonymous Post:
"Prove it, newfag. Your God supports killing babies - not simple abortion, but brutally murdering already-born BABIES and CHILDREN."

6th Anonymous Post:
"It's not about God or religion, it's about appreciating the value of human life."

Thank you for clarifying that 6th Anonymous poster.

As for the comments from the 4th Anonymous Poster who called me "Newfag" my comment was not based on some stupid God or religion, it was based on the fact that killing a baby is still wrong regardless.

It hasn't got a goddamn thing to do with religion. Not all of us Non-Christians are for abortion just so you know.

And as far as your comment: "KILLING BABIES GLORIFIES YOUR GOD."

He's not my fucking God. I could care less about what some spiritual asshole bully wants.

.:webmaster:. said...

To all the anonymous posters: If you would choose a "nickname" and type that nickname in the "Name/URL" block (click the radio button with "Name/URL" beside it when posting a comment), this conversation would be greatly facilitated.

That's just one option. There are quite a few others. If you have an ID on Google, LiveJournal, Wordpress, AIM, TypePad, or OpenID, you can choose to log in under those IDs.

DocMike said...

The comic is not about supporting abortion (although I personally respect a woman's right to choose and I'm happy to live in a country that still allows that freedom.)

It's about how ignorant most christians are when they claim their "pro-life" stance is supported by biblical scripture.

Truth is, their baby-killer god is definitely pro-choice (his own)!

Spirula said...

If you've ever seen a woman having an abortion... it's just disturbing. It will turn your stomach.

Ever been to a slaughter house? Ever heard the squeals and screams of the animals? Most of them know it is coming as there are few requirements to isolate those being slaughtered from those about to be.

If revulsion of a act is the criteria, which I have no problem with, then a consistent "value of life" standard should be the norm.

Regardless of religious reasons (or lack thereof), I don't see it in the anti-abortion crowd. I have found the vast majority of these people are also strong advocates for many of the US military campaigns fought in the last century. Virtually all of these campaigns involved bombing and targeting civilians. And history reveals there were/are really horrific numbers of victims.

The conservative religious crowd has been absolutely silent about that.

Let's face it, the god they worship is fixated on the suffering and death of living things. I don't believe such a being exists, but the claim it "holy" and "righteous" to worship such a construct is truely appalling.

Most of us here realized that at some point in our life. When I deconverted, this was one of the principle reasons why. I realized how this vicious and spiteful deity was excused as "good", in an somewhat Orwellian way, by theologians and Christians in general.

Peta (people eating tasty animals) said...

Spirula's Comment:
"Ever been to a slaughter house? Ever heard the squeals and screams of the animals? Most of them know it is coming as there are few requirements to isolate those being slaughtered from those about to be."

First of all, don't compare the life of an animal to the life of a human. Your statement is absurd.

I assume you are a "Animal Rights" advocate.

However, I do support PETA which stands for:

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

I support Peta also said...

These Animal Rights people are a bunch of pussies.

Just last night I some dead angus cow meat along with some dead shrimp.

It all tasted really damn good!

Yule Goat 2 Hell said...

Anonymous idiot claims: "If you've ever seen a woman having an abortion... it's just disturbing. It will turn your stomach. The fetus will literally try to avoid the instruments used to kill it until it is ripped to pieces.

Bull. Shit.

Whether you're lying for Jesus or just lying to promote some right-wing torture-porn fantasy, you're still a liar.

Most abortions occur in the first semester long before the embryo has formed a nervous system sufficient to allow it to feel anything, let alone skirm away from the suction tube used to extract it, and witnessing the procedure itself is no more disturbing than seeing a normal d&c.

Of course, abortions that occur later are more problematic. Too bad that anti-choice zealots have been able to get so many clinics closed that some poor women delay the procedure until the second trimester, when they have skrimped and saved enough to travel out-of-state to a distant provider.

Atheist against abortion said...

"Bull. Shit."

No it's not. Have you ever seen this procedure done in person before?

It's easy for someone to say "Bullshit" if they have never witnessed it in person.

And once again I will remind everyone that "NOT EVERYONE WHO IS AN ATHEIST SUPPORTS ABORTION".

So stop shoving that Jesus bullshit down our throats.

Geeez.......Are all atheists supposed to support abortion?

Thackerie said...

It’s not surprising the fundies don’t like to think about the many verses that depict their god as a baby killer. You’ll also never hear them talk about those verses which show the ancient Israelites did not impose the same penalty for killing a fetus and killing a person. Heck, they didn’t even count newborns as people until the infant was at least a month old.

And here’s something very interesting

“Numbers 5:12-28: First we must cite the one passage in the Bible that the anti-choice extremists will never tell you about. While the Bible never forbids abortion, nor does it really encourage it either, there is one passage from the Law of Moses that explicitly authorizes abortion in the case of a married woman who becomes impregnated by a man other than her husband. This passage says that if a man suspects his wife to be pregnant by someone else, he can take her to the priest who will prescribe the "bitter water" (the known abortifacient produced by combining pennyroyal with black cohosh) to terminate the unwanted pregnancy. Please note, this is part of the LAW OF MOSES. This is not a specific instance to a particular individual or couple. This was a general prescription of practice for God's "Chosen People" -- the Jews, from whom the promised Messiah was supposed to appear.”

Lots more here:

http://www.wordwiz72.com/chscript.html

Yule Goat 2 Hell said...

“Have you ever seen this procedure done in person before?”

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. A few hundred times.

I don’t like to cite credentials because I don’t want a lot of personal information about myself floating around on the Internet, but I can tell you that as a registered nurse who has worked with a Planned Parenthood clinic in a large East Coast city off and on since 1981, I have witnessed hundreds of first trimester abortions, and they are not at all like you describe.

Perhaps you are thinking of a third trimester abortion performed to save the woman’s life. (Or maybe you’ve just been hoodwinked by anti-choice propaganda.)

”And once again I will remind everyone that "NOT EVERYONE WHO IS AN ATHEIST SUPPORTS ABORTION".

So stop shoving that Jesus bullshit down our throats.

Geeez.......Are all atheists supposed to support abortion?”


Well, geeez right back at you. Who, other than you, ever said that atheists have anything in common other than not believing in god? I think you may be confused on the concept, as well.

Spirula said...

First of all, don't compare the life of an animal to the life of a human. Your statement is absurd.

Oh really? So what is your criteria for a "value" of a life? Want to bet it is (surprise, surprise!) anthrocentric?

Aside from the fact that you competely missed the point of my post, I advocate humane treatment of animals, but have no problem with eating meat. I work in research. I use animals. I have to euthanize animals in my work, but I support reasonable and thoughtful animal use. That type of work includes committe reviews of protocols and treatments to ensure that animals are treated with compassion and care, and with veterinary oversight and override. We have all types of security measures in place to keep the animal rights activists from gaining access and destroying valuable, time consuming and expensive research. (How are your assumptions looking now?)

My point about slaugherhouses is that most slaughterhouses have evaded those concerns as they became insulated from oversight and regulation, thanks to a complicit federal gov't. They are nasty, inhumane, meat factories that give no consideration to the animals they kill.

But, hey, if it's such a great thing, take your family there on a field trip. I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time.

Peta (People Eating Tasty Animals) said...

Spirula's Comment:
"I work in research. I use animals. I have to euthanize animals in my work"

Hey! Sounds like we have something in common then.

I do Animal Research also. I do research to see how good dead cows taste at the local steak houses in my city.

Prakster said...

1) google 'abortion is unbiblical'
2) god enjoys killing in the womb and outside of the womb.
3) Remember the verse where god says if any man is jealous or suspicious or even just wants to be sure of his wife's loyalty, to take her to the altar and make her drink something and if she is evil, she will have a miscarriage, or if she was faithful, live happy and prosper?
4)Taking verses out of contexts that was for a prophet.
5)god enjoys smiting unto the seventh generation.

Phant said...

PETA Said:
"I do Animal Research also. I do research to see how good dead cows taste at the local steak houses in my city"

After the recent troll invasion, it now appears that we have a goddamn comedian on here.

What's next?

Anonymous said...

"No it's not. Have you ever seen this procedure done in person before?

It's easy for someone to say "Bullshit" if they have never witnessed it in person."

I don't know. How about if they had it done in person? I've had 2 d&c's done between 6-8 weeks for various reasons that are nobody's business and it was nothing like you described. Not much different than a internal exam or pap. I don't know what YOU have seen but if it was as horrible as you say it wouldn't be done so often.

Aspentroll said...

Since god is supposed to be in charge of all things that happen everywhere, god has chosen to allow the abortions to happen. Then he must be secretly telling the abortion doctor to do these acts. Come on christians either god is in charge or he's not, get your shit together.
God's in charge of everything isn't he?
Oh, excuse me, the devil, is in charge of abortions, which makes me wonder about god again.

Moderate Atheist said...

"I don't know what YOU have seen but if it was as horrible as you say it wouldn't be done so often."

Ok, with reasoning like that it is only a matter of time before it becomes ok to start killing kids after they are born.

Pretty soon it will be ok to murder 5 year olds, and murdering animals will be considered 1st degree murder. Human life seems to have less value these days, and when people start putting equal value on animal life well that just shows how stupid people in this modern day age have gotten.

There seems to be a lack of "Common Sense" when it comes to most people who live in this modern day age.

I may be an atheist, however I sure as hell don't agree with most of my fellow atheists when it comes to some of their views.

Ziggy Blacktail said...

Psalm 139. That's all I'll say here.

Anonymous said...

Cat Soup tastes pretty good too.

Yum! Yum!

leotracks said...

it should be pointed out also that most pro-lifers are men. Men, who couldn't care less about babies, since they will refuse to pay for or take care of these babies they insist be born, but want nothing more than to tell women what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. It is about dominance and control, not life.

Charles Thaddeus Beowulf said...

Someone who claims to be a “moderate” atheist: “Pretty soon it will be ok to murder 5 year olds, and murdering animals will be considered 1st degree murder. … I may be an atheist, however I sure as hell don't agree with most of my fellow atheists when it comes to some of their views.

Fine, have your views. No one here is saying you can’t. There are atheists of every persuasion and political stripe. The only trait shared by real atheists is a lack of belief in deities.

But, if you want your views to be taken seriously, back them with something more than senseless hyperbole, strawman arguments, and hysterical rants about embryos and fetuses playing dodgeball with surgical instruments. Otherwise, people are going to think you’re a right-wing nutcase who argues strictly from emotionalism.

Oh yeah, and try to stay on topic. We all have views on all sorts of subjects, but this blog is about the hypocrisy of Christians who try to use their bible to protest reproductive choice. Got anything to say about that? Or do you plan to just tell us YET AGAIN that you are an atheist who opposes abortion and doesn’t care about animals?

Spirula said...

It is also interesting to note how this "abstinence only/Christian values" approach actually increases the likely-hood of teenage pregnancy and abortion when compared to more secular and sexually open European countries.

Moderate Atheist said...

Charles Thaddeus Beowulf's comment:

But, if you want your views to be taken seriously, back them with something more than senseless hyperbole, strawman arguments, and hysterical rants about embryos and fetuses playing dodgeball with surgical instruments. Otherwise, people are going to think you’re a right-wing nutcase who argues strictly from emotionalism.

First of all I really don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks nor do I give a flying fuck about what you say. If people want to think that I am a "Right Winged Nutcase" I don't really care. I don't allow the opinions of others run my life for me.

When anyone says that "Animal Life" is just as valuable as "Human Life" they have absolutely no goddamn common sense whatsoever. I cannot believe the stupidity of some of people. The two don't even fucking compare! What kind of idiots are you people? I don't know anyone who thinks like that. Not at least within my circle of friends.

Of course, I really wouldn't expect someone like you to take me seriously considering that you seem to lack any common sense.

Charles Thaddeus Beowulf's comment:
"Oh yeah, and try to stay on topic."

BITE ME! I'll talk about whatever I want to, so get over it. I've seen people get off topic on here several times.



Charles Thaddeus Beowulf's comment:
"Got anything to say about that? Or do you plan to just tell us YET AGAIN that you are an atheist who opposes abortion and doesn’t care about animals?"

First of all, I didn't say "That I did not care anything about animals". So don't be putting words in my mouth ass wipe. I said that animals do not come before "Human Life". If you still disagree then you are dumber than what I thought.

Way More Moderate Than You said...

Ha Ha! Stupid troll took the bait. It's fun to watch them work themselves into a tizzy. This one might just explode. (But, seriously man, calm down before you work yourself into a stroke.)

Anonymous said...

I live in a low income neighbor hood and know of several families that the mother has run off. One split in the middle of the night. How would life be different if these women had easier access to birth control. The children suffer from the loss of the parent.

And the fundies would gladly not allow any control over an individulals fertility. And the contradiction from the bible to what the christian belives is laughable. As leotracks said it isn't about a childs life its about conrolling the women. Why do you think the fundies encourage women to have large families. If you are busy chasing after an army of little ones your to busy to question the dogma.

I appologize for getting a bit off topic

Sandra

Renee said...

I support abortion only when these rules apply:

1) A woman was raped
2) Incest
3) There is a major (Life or death) health risk to the mother.

I think abortion is abused, and too many people use it to avoid responsibility for their own "Irresponsible Sex". I don't believe that abortion should be allowed just because "Having a baby is inconvenient" for some people. People should think about that before they hop in the sack with each other.

We've got too many people out there
who think that it's ok to have an abortion all because of their own irresponsible sex.

Here is an example of the kind of reasoning that seems to be very common among a lot of people:

A GUY & A GIRL GETTING READY TO HAVE SEX SAYS:
"I'm horny right now, so let's have sex, and if you get pregnant (or if I get pregnant) then we'll just get an abortion".

That is wrong. In cases like that abortions should not be allowed because two people don't want the inconvenience of a baby.

We talk about the rights of a mother, how about the rights of a child? Don't they have any rights? I think in a lot of cases (Which does not include women who were raped or who are facing a major health risk due to a pregnancy) that abortion is a very selfish act just because someone does not want the baby.

The baby (Fetus) is an innocent victim. Why should the fetus (Which is a form of life no matter what anyone else says or thinks) be terminated all because of someone else's irresponsible sexual acts?

If people do not want a child then they should simply consider these options:

1) Wear a condom or use other birth control methods.

2) Give the baby up for adoption to a family who does want a baby. That includes women who do not want the baby who's man has decided to abandon them

3) Or simply do not have sex. (Which is usually not practical in a lot of cases).

And before I start getting flamed, I am not a christian, but at the same time I also do not subscribe to the beliefs of a lot of atheists either. I am agnostic.

If some of you want to say that I am also a "Right Winged" fanatic, that is your right. However it's not possible for me to be a "Right Winged Fanatic" since I support Gay Marriage and I also happen to be an advocate for the rights of the GLBT Community.

At the same time I will be the first to admit that I do have a conservative side, which I do not apologize for either which supports the 2nd Amendment.

I too have my own set of beliefs, and I am not one who worries about if others approve of them or not. I am who "I Choose to be", and I believe, "What I Choose to believe".

For those who want an argument or decide to say nasty things back to me, just so you know, I will not be replying to any of the posts on here. I just wanted to point out a few things to those who think that it's ok to get an abortion because of irresponsible sexual acts between two people who were more than willing to romp around in the bed with each other.

Take care.

Renee

Good ol' fashion common sense said...

Anyone who thinks that the life of an animal has just as much value of a human being doesn't have the sense of a jack ass.

For those who claim, "You Just don't like animals", No, I just don't believe their lives are as valuable as a human being's life is.

Any person who still disagrees with that point is not worth debating due to the fact that anyone who has such reasoning doesn't have enough common sense to debate, and is simply not worth my time.

Anonymous said...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life!
John 3:16

TRUST in the Lord with all of thine heart and yeild not to thine own understanding in ALL thy was ACKNOWLEDGE Him and He shall DIRECT thy path

And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more sorrow or crying for the former things are passed away...He that sat on the throne said behold I make all things new!

The bible says that in the last days even the very ELECT will be decieved that people will begin to doubt Him. But friends keep the faith even though you may doubt trust in God His promises are true... He said in Romans 8:23 ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE THAT FEAR AND TRUST GOD.

Astreja said...

Anonymouse, this site is called Ex-Christian.net.

Virtually all of the regulars have read the Bible. Some of us have read it cover to cover several times. None of us take it seriously, except as an example of the kind of crap that superstitious and primitive humans sometimes write.

And I, Myself, certainly have no intention of "trusting" a fictional being that would allegedly permit its own son to be executed.

John 3:16 is the unspeakably obscene lie at the very heart of the Christian mindfuck... Wishful thinking, drenched in blood. Are you really so naïve as to think that such a barbaric, bloodthirsty god would wipe tears from your eyes? Or that a truly compassionate deity would dabble in "sin" and human sacrifice in the first place?

If there actually *was* a "Mark of the Beast", in My opinion it would be (John 3:16 and the Sinner's Prayer). Both of them reduce humanity to helpless pawns and chattel in the thrall of a vengeful and murderous being.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Anonymous wrote:
"The bible says...."
--
My answer to Anon's pop quiz:

NOTHING

Well, unless you wish to believe fictional constructs are worthy of significant consideration.

ATF (Who wonders why these deluded fools think their bible words mean anything)

Thackerie said...

Since we appear to have gotten hopelessly off topic and are now entertaining individual viewpoints regarding abortion rather than the original blog …

There are some people who oppose ALL abortions, no matter the circumstances, and I can, sort of, understand where they’re coming from even though I thoroughly disagree with them. But I just can’t get my mind around the logic of people who say they oppose abortion but would make exceptions in the case of pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.

If the opposition stems from a belief that all human life most be respected and preserved, even if that life is in the embryonic or fetal stage, why is OK to jettison this belief when it comes to a life that had been seeded by a rapist or a too-close relative? After all, we don’t routinely round up and kill the children of convicted sex offenders.

Maybe I’m being overly charitable in taking so many anti-choicers at their word when they say that belief in the sanctity of human life is what motivates them. But, if they were truly “pro-life,” wouldn’t it be logical for them to oppose ALL abortions without regard to who contributed the sperm and allow an exception ONLY when another life (that of the pregnant woman) is clearly threatened? Otherwise, those who are “pro-life … except in three cases” must experience a lot of cognitive dissonance.

It seems to me that supporting exceptions to an anti-abortion stance in the case of rape or incest is acknowledging that, at least in some cases, the circumstances of a pregnant girl or woman – i.e., a person – take priority over a cluster of cells even if those cells would eventually become a person were they to continue to develop. The difference with pro-choice proponents is that we openly acknowledge that an embryo or early-term fetus is NOT yet a person and therefore does not have more value than a person and that abortion is most certainly NOT murder.

Now I know that most people, even those who label themselves “pro-life,” would be horrified at the idea of forcing a woman to carry to term a pregnancy resulting from rape. So am I. But who am I to judge whether a woman who became pregnant because of a failure or lack of birth control faces any less trauma and disruption of her life? Just as I cannot make that determination, neither should I or anyone else, dictate another person’s reproductive choices.

.:webmaster:. said...

I'm curious to know the answer to something. If every sperm has the potential of becoming a human being, is male masturbation mass murder?

I also wonder why is it that only a fertilized ovum is considered "human." It would seem to me that the separate reproductive cells from either a female or male would still be at least half a human, right? So wouldn't jettisoning an egg once a month or emitting a few billion sperm every month be a sin?

Ah ha! It just so happens, it is a sin! Sex and Eroticism according to ancient Theologians | Is masturbation wrong? | Conservative Christian beliefs about masturbation | The Big "O"

WhateverLolaWants said...

Renee: I support abortion only when these rules apply:

1) A woman was raped
2) Incest
3) There is a major (Life or death) health risk to the mother.


This could never be enforced. The complications are ridiculous. Here are some examples:
1) Would the woman have to prove she was raped? If so, how would she do that? Perhaps she would use the court system, you say. Ignoring the fact that pressing rape charges may not be something she wishes to do (perhaps she is too fearful of the rapist, she can't face the stress of a trial, or she doesn't want anyone to know what happened- those might not be convincing enough reasons for you, but they are for many rape victims, and I don't think we should judge rape victims too much), let's think about the implications. First, the court system is generally overloaded and slow. By the time a woman's rape trial came up, it could very well be too late for her to get an abortion; she might have already had the resulting child, in fact!

And what if the rapist is acquitted- then she is barred from an abortion? Guilty people get acquittals all the time, for a variety of reasons; perhaps the prosecution was incompetent, for example, or the accused was a prominent member of society while the victim was a "nobody."

Also, if rape was one of the three requirements for abortions, people would almost certainly start filing false rape charges, wasting the time and resources of law enforcement.

2) Incest. Pretty much the same story as rape.

3) The life or health of the mother. This gets incredibly complicated. First of all, define "health"- is mental health included? There are a lot of women who would feel a lot better if they could get an abortion rather than keep the child or give it up for adoption. (And that whole "you WILL regret it" threat doesn't hold up, as there are many women who don't regret it. Just do some web searches and you'll find some of their stories. Many might regret getting pregnant in the first place, but not necessarily the decision to abort.)

Secondly, insisting that the danger be "life or death" is extremely unfair. There are plenty of things that can result from pregnancy that won't always kill a woman, but will damage her health and make her life suck. Read about "pathology of pregancy". Also, many diseases put the woman and/or child at great risk. Keep in mind, many women are warned by their doctor not to get pregnant in the first place- if something goes wrong and they do, must they carry the pregnancy to term? Must we condemn these women to poor health (and all the resulting suffering, which would likely be transferred into the child's life) rather than permitting a simple abortion?

Let's talk about the logistics of this, too. Who gets to decide all of this? The "abortion board" or something? I abhor the idea of a bureaucracy getting to decide about my health, about the direction of my life and the potential life of another. And doctors argue about the danger attached to various complications- how can we account for the inconsistencies that would arise there, when some women would be "allowed" an abortion based on a doctor's testimony, while others with the same condition might not be allowed one?

There's so much more I could say, but the gist of it is, not only are those three exceptions unfair (and would cause many ill effects that are worth a whole other long-winded post), but they have many problems in and of themselves and are not feasible at all in the real world.

WhateverLolaWants said...

One note- I wrote that you allowed for the health or life of the mother, but actually I should have been more clear- you only allowed for the life. Just wanted to clear up any confusion about that part of our arguments.

Mental_blank said...

I know I am late to this party, but...

Renee's conditions included that there is a life/death complication for the mother. But what about the child?
Ultrasound can detect severe genetic abnormalities in-utero. Abnormalities that may cause the baby to die at birth or shortly after, after say, 3 weeks of agonizing life.
Having worked as a healthcare professional, there is nothing that is more haunting than the face of a mother whose genetically inviable child has struggled and died in infancy. And I cannot tell you how many times I have heard them say, through tears, that they wish they had terminated, and spared the baby the pain.
Renee, you mentioned the child's rights? Is this one of them?

Ricky said...

Most people are hypocrites. Nothing more. I agree with Spirula completely. By the way, there are no differences between animals and unborn babies, except for the fact that animals have a good grasp of the world (my dog remembered me after my 2-year absence), are smarter (no embryo can follow commands), and have more nerve cells. Not that I'm for needless abortion, mind you. But then again, aren't Christians against condom use, too? What if we made condoms more readily available? But that would make women into sinners, huh, so a dead baby is better than a condom handed out to facilitate sin. At the end of the day, late term abortion is illegal in most cases, so instead of a twisting baby, it's more like scraping some cells off a uterus. It seems that pro-lifers only have the image of a fully-formed baby being killed, and don't think of the probable majority that haven't even developed limbs. Although I don't generally favor abortion, I must say that I'm pro-choice. Just think about it...you think of all babies as innocent beings, but you have to realize that Peta was once a baby, too. What a world it would be if his mom had done the right thing!

Riley J said...

50% of fetuses are self-aborted in the first trimester. Most of them in the first month. That is natural and if there is a god, it would be the greatest abortionist ever.

xtians ingnore these facts. If xtians are made in god's image and suppose to be like jebus, then abortion is part of the deal.

Abortion should be a personal choice in opinion.

David said...

To riley j,

Where do you draw the line then? At what point does abortion stop being a choice and become murder?

Riley J. said...

David,

Good question. I know xtians have no business saying what is wrong. I do think the current law is great. Its a personal choice and no self-righteous xtian biggot has any say in it for others.

I do think there is a balance currently. I like the current "line that is drawn". I would never call abortion murder. Personally, I think there should be test for those wanting children.

What is the difference between man and nature aborting? Are we not our own governor as nature is? There is no god, therefore we must come together and reason out what is logical. Again, there should be no moral monopoly on abortion. The line is relative as it has been since the beginning of time. Just as murder has been defined relatively.

Xtians look down on their own for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Abortion becomes their escape.

Xtians can't even decide on how to punish those who do have abortions.

Overall, I don't see any reason to draw a new line. Murder is against law. Abortion if legal. I follow the law. Again, there is no god, therefore no need to define morally relativity as an absolute.

Personally, I would not abort my child. What others do is there business.

Since xtians consider my unborn child a person, why can't I claim my "person" on my taxes for last year?

David said...

riley j,

Thanks for responding, but I don't think you answered my question. And I asked it not to draw you out and start an argument but only to hopefully further my own understanding. My own opinion on abortion is not driven by my belief in God at all. I do not know where to draw the moral line myself. Since I can't draw a line I choose to be conservative and call it human right from conception.

I do not see the harm in telling what your personal line is though. I don't think it will have any effect on the current laws in place or change policy in any way.

Peace

Anonymous said...

I am a single low income mother. I have one child. And luckly I live in a community where birth controll is avalable to all income levels. I try as best I can to be responsable in my sex life. I consider myself lucky to have the resorces I do. I consider myself lucky for only haveing to consider abortion once in my life. I have had two friends (also low income) who have had abortions. One I belive it really was in the best intrest of the not-yet-born for the abortion. She was in a very abusive relationship. The other friend was I feel being irresponsable. She did not use any protection (her choise) and cheated on her boyfriend. I don't know of anyone else who had abortions, but a lot of women around here don't talk about it. I am just trying to show some of the circumstances. I do apoligize for any misspelled.

Sandra

Anonymous said...

This is PRAISE83:
Abortion is wrong in all ways. Once a female is pregnant her body is then not her own and she can't do what ever she pleases.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 (God Called Jeremiah to be a prophet even before his conception.)
Genesis 1:26-28/2:7 (Man kind is created by God in His image, even carrying His eternal breath of life.)
Proverbs 14:12 (Some ways seem right to men end in death) opposite of the Lords way of life
We do not think like God or understand his will For that's why he is the A and the Z.
Isaiah 44:2 He who made you, who formed you in the womb & who help you.)
God is a good God and
Psalm 31:15 a persons time life span is in God's hands)
If God takes a persons life it's under His will. You can't do it for your own selfishness. You taking a life is totally different from God taking a life.
Psalm 24:1 (The earth & all who dwell in it are the Lords.)

Astreja said...

Praise83, we don't care *what* the Bible says. To us, it's a book of mythology. To us, your god is imaginary. When someone comes here and quotes scripture at us, our usual reactions are to sigh, snicker, swear, roll our eyes and/or completely tune out anything else you might have to say.

Although I consider abortion to be an intrusive medical procedure that should be avoided if possible, I stand 100% behind the right of each and every female on this planet to have an abortion. Her body is always her own. It belongs to her, not some invisible imaginary psychopath.

Brother John said...

From Astreja........"I stand 100% behind the right of each and every female on this planet to have an abortion."

How about the rights of the baby? Doesn't he/she have any rights? How about protecting the rights of someone who doesn't have any say so in the matter?

From Astreja......"Her body is always her own. It belongs to her, not some invisible imaginary psychopath."

That still does not excuse the right to murder an innocent victim who has no say so in the matter.

If someone does not want a baby then they can place it up for adoption.

Outside of health risks, there is no excuse for Abortion. Especially when there is adoption.

People need to be more responsible for their own acts of sex.

.:webmaster:. said...

John boy,

Your Jesus didn't start his little religion so assholes like you could use that religion as a bludgeon on others. He said things like "turn the other cheek" and "Resist not evil" and "Love your enemies" and lots of other pietistic niceties.

However, militant religionists like you think it is your right to stick your finger in the face of others. Besides, as the OP clearly states, GOD HIMSELF ORDERED THE DEATH OF BABIES.

How can you condemn abortion when your God at times commands death to babies?

And, what about spilling your sperm? I mean, isn't sperm a half of a human being? How can you ejaculate without guilt? You are killing millions of children every time you stroke that thing and every time you use birth control.

You should never ejaculate unless you impregnate a woman. All sperm is human life.

Oh, and have a really great night!

Brother John said...

Dear Webmaster,

I have never engaged such an angry person as yourself. You really have a huge chip on your shoulder it would seem.

You also seem to think that you know quiet a bit about my own personal sex life. I have no reason to masturbate since that I have been happily married to a wonderful woman for 14 years now.

Say what you want, however abortion is still wrong. It has nothing to do with religion, or the bible.

The facts are that you and everyone else are looking for reasons to do what you want to do. Even if Jesus appeared right now, I have no doubt in my mind that most people like yourself would still spit in his face, and reject him.

I'm sorry that you seem to carry around such bitterness and anger Webmaster. I have nothing but love for you regardless of how you may feel about me.

Brother John :-)

.:webmaster:. said...

I'm neither angry nor bitter.

I just think your religion is bullshit. You believe in a myth and you use your own particular version of that myth to verbally berate others, throw around your self-aggrandizing moral superiority, and bludgeon others with your particular flavor of self-deluded, self righteousness.

Remember, Johnny, you came here a preaching. No one came looking for you. What do you expect?

Now, do you use birth control? Because if you do, you are killing potential human beings. You should have at least 14 children by now. If you don't have 14 kids, then by your own judgment you are guilty of murder.

Do you think I'm way out? That is exactly what EVERY Christian believed for over 1,700 years. It's only been recently that non-Catholics have allowed themselves the benefit of recreational sex in marriage. Always, always, always, the sex act was confined by Christianity to procreation only!

Murderer!

.:webmaster:. said...

Johnny said, " Even if Jesus appeared right now, I have no doubt in my mind that most people like yourself would still spit in his face, and reject him."

Oh brother. I'll tell you what, Johnny. Show us your Jesus and see what happens. Until then, you're just attempting to marginalize and dismiss all people who think religion is delusion as evil. I bet you also have similar little sayings that allow you to marginalize various minorities that you don't like.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

Brother John: "How about the rights of the baby? Doesn't he/she have any rights?"

Not until such time as it is viable outside the womb. In other words... I find later-trimester abortion to be somewhat undesirable but do not consider a six-week-old fetus to be a "person" in need of legal protection.

BTW... Do you eat chicken or beef or pork, Brother John? I'd surmise that the average cow or pig or hen suffers a lot more than the "victims" of day-after pills and promptly-obtained first-trimester abortions.

"If someone does not want a baby then they can place it up for adoption."

I see no reason why anyone should be forced to endure nine months of discomfort and give birth to a child for the benefit of someone else. They may choose to do so, however, which is just fine by Me.

Common Sense said...

From Astreja.........."Not until such time as it is viable outside the womb. In other words... I find later-trimester abortion to be somewhat undesirable but do not consider a six-week-old fetus to be a "person" in need of legal protection."

I hate to inform you, but.......Does not matter what you think.

The facts are that it is a "Human Life" regardless of what you think no matter what stage it is in.

However, your next statement really puts the icing on the cake:

From Astreja......."BTW... Do you eat chicken or beef or pork, Brother John? I'd surmise that the average cow or pig or hen suffers a lot more than the "victims" of day-after pills and promptly-obtained first-trimester abortions."

You have got to be kidding me. What a stupid comparison.

First of all "Animal Life" and "Human Life" do not compare. Your statement is absurd. People have been eating animals for centuries. Next thing you will suggest that it is ok to eat people like the Cannibals in Africa do.

I really am going to have to copy and paste your statement Asteja, and send it to a few other people who I know. I'm sure my associates will agree just what a stupid comparison you just made. That has got to be the most stupid comment I have ever heard. Surely you are more intelligent than that. Get real....*Shakes head and rolls eyes*

From Astreja........"I see no reason why anyone should be forced to endure nine months of discomfort and give birth to a child for the benefit of someone else. They may choose to do so, however, which is just fine by Me."

What a self-centered statement. See that's the problem with people like you, and your thinking. Your statement only proves just how people like you refuse to accept your own personal responsibility in matters. It's ok to act irresponsible is what you are saying.

It's a good thing your mother didn't feel the same way that you feel when she was pregnant with you Astreja.

Same goes for anyone else who believes in Abortion, and I happen to be a "Non-Christian Moderate/Conservative" who is against Abortion.

Astreja said...

Common Nonsense: "I hate to inform you, but... Does not matter what you think."

Yes, it does. I'm a voter, and I will not support politicians who criminalize My views on abortion.

"The facts are that it is a "Human Life" regardless of what you think no matter what stage it is in..."

Doesn't mean I have to carry it around in My body, though.

"First of all "Animal Life" and "Human Life" do not compare. Your statement is absurd. People have been eating animals for centuries. Next thing you will suggest that it is ok to eat people like the Cannibals in Africa do."

Um... Life is life. Pain is pain. There is nothing whatsoever special about human beings aside from opposable thumbs and an advanced capacity for abstract thought.

"I really am going to have to copy and paste your statement Asteja, and send it to a few other people who I know."

Be My guest... I stand by My words. Be sure to reference this website as well, in accordance with the Creative Commons license, please.

"I'm sure my associates will agree just what a stupid comparison you just made."

Well, goody for you. Have yourselves a roaring good laugh.

"What a self-centered statement."

Yup. No apologies.

"Ιt's a good thing your mother didn't feel the same way that you feel when she was pregnant with you Astreja."

(shrugs) I'm not overly attached to this body, luv. No big deal with Me.

Oh, and have you got anything to say regarding the original post? You know, Biblegod the ultimate baby-killer?

Common Sense said...

Astreja's Comment......."Um... Life is life. Pain is pain. There is nothing whatsoever special about human beings aside from opposable thumbs and an advanced capacity for abstract thought."

You are so full of crap Astreja. If you could only hear all of the people who I showed your statement to earlier today literally laugh their asses off at your absurd statement. You must be mentally ill.

My Original Comment to Astreja....."What a self-centered statement."

Asterja's reply......"Yup. No apologies."

Well that explains that. At least I know where you stand.

Just remember this. What goes around comes around. Do you believe in Karma Asteja?

If you are self-centered towards others, then you will get the same treatment in return. It has nothing to do with a God or the Bible. That my dear lady, is a fact, and it is "Reality".

I had at one time considered becoming an atheist myself, however after exploring both sides of the issues I have arrived at this conclusion.

Asteja's question for me......."Oh, and have you got anything to say regarding the original post? You know, Biblegod the ultimate baby-killer?"

No, not really. Who knows? Maybe a lot of those stories were made up.

I cannot buy into the Christian God story. It is also too absurd, however at the same time I do not believe it is possible for nothing to become something without some divine creator or some advanced form of life.

Unlike most atheists who seem to be just as close minded as many christians are, I have chosen to remain open to the idea that there is a creator out there.

Plus when I see the arrogance of most atheists (Especially on this website) it reminds me of why I am glad that I am not one of you.

ATHEISM = HUMAN ARROGANCE

Which will one day be the complete downfall of the human race eventually regardless if there is a God or not.

I'm sure man will do a good enough job destroying himself with all of this modern day greed and corruption. The rising Gas prices in the United States is only the beginning. Man's greed will be what destroys him along with all of the development of farms in rural America.

Ah yes...One day mankind will look back and ask himself, "How could we have allowed such greed to destroy this beautiful land with all of this development amongst other things"?

Self-Centeredness along with Greed will be the two things that destroy the human race. Not God.

boomSLANG said...

Phant?

Astreja said...

Common Sense: "If you could only hear all of the people who I showed your statement to earlier today literally laugh their asses off at your absurd statement."

Glad I could liven up their day.

"Just remember this. What goes around comes around. Do you believe in Karma Asteja?"

I used to believe in karma, many years ago. However, I can identify no consistent mechanism whereby it could actually function independent of social interaction.

Currently, I see "karma" as an accumulation of habitual behaviours that create probable reactions to new situations. Hence, a person who indulges in criminal activities will tend to frequent environments conducive to the commission of those activities... And will eventually run into more than he or she can handle, be it a rival criminal or the long arm of the law.

Contrary to what you may have assumed about Me from My postings on this blog, I do tend to treat people in a civil and helpful fashion most of the time. It is also true that I do not suffer fools gladly and have no qualms about retaliating if someone wrongs Me or My family or friends.

"Asteja's question for me.......'Oh, and have you got anything to say regarding the original post? You know, Biblegod the ultimate baby-killer?' No, not really. Who knows? Maybe a lot of those stories were made up."

They may have been made up inasomuch as they were presented as divine marching orders, but I think there's a very good chance they may point to very real genocides perpetrated by the Old Testament peoples.

"Self-Centeredness along with Greed will be the two things that destroy the human race. Not God."

I wouldn't give up on humanity just yet, but fully agree with the "Greed" and "not God" parts of this statement. I do feel, however, that self-centeredness has been unjustly vilified. In My opinion, it is essential to retain a modicum of self-centeredness in order to pursue one's own life goals. Altruism is good... In moderation... But I wouldn't want a steady diet of it.

fiftymillionalreadyaborted said...

It's funny how you animal right's nuts take the Bible out of context and blame God for everything when your own wickedness is to blame. You people have obviously never seen an abortion or you would turn against this murderous practice done to our unborn HUMANS. Stop with your "scientific" b.s. and open a Bible and read it the right way, not the way you liberal couks want to read it and blame God for everything. A person becomes a person at the moment of conception. You can lie to yourselves all you want, but you anti-lifers are just good at rhetoric. You're darn right I'm anti-choice, because I choose to let my children live and not sucumb them to the knife of your couky abortion doctors. Get a clue, 99 percent of abortions are done for "financial" reasons and 1 percent is done because the mother is raped or the UNBORN HUMAN will kill her. You can cry "potential life" all you want. If you guys think aboriton is so great, go have a doctor cut you into tiny pieces and tell me how it was. Oh wait, you'd be DEAD, since you were MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD!

fiftymillionalreadyaborted said...

It's funny how you animal right's nuts take the Bible out of context and blame God for everything when your own wickedness is to blame. You people have obviously never seen an abortion or you would turn against this murderous practice done to our unborn HUMANS. Stop with your "scientific" b.s. and open a Bible and read it the right way, not the way you liberal couks want to read it and blame God for everything. A person becomes a person at the moment of conception. You can lie to yourselves all you want, but you anti-lifers are just good at rhetoric. You're darn right I'm anti-choice, because I choose to let my children live and not sucumb them to the knife of your couky abortion doctors. Get a clue, 99 percent of abortions are done for "financial" reasons and 1 percent is done because the mother is raped or the UNBORN HUMAN will kill her. You can cry "potential life" all you want. If you guys think aboriton is so great, go have a doctor cut you into tiny pieces and tell me how it was. Oh wait, you'd be DEAD, since you were MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD!

DocMike said...

Hey fitty-cent, you totally ignored the main theme of the post. How do you explain all of the unborn children your bible-god killed?

stronger now said...

"Stop with your "scientific" b.s. and open a Bible and read it the right way, not the way you liberal couks want to read it and blame God for everything."

I nominate this for submission to FSTDT.

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

FiftyMillion: "99 percent of abortions are done for 'financial' reasons..."

I see no problem with this. If one cannot afford to raise a child, I think it's an extremely bad idea to have one.

But I'm sure you're one of those *cough* compassionate believers who regularly donates time, money, food, clothing and/or furniture to your local charities.

Someone who lobbies for accessible, affordable daycare, a decent living wage, and salary parity for men and women.

Someone who supports sex education and contraception to minimize the chance of an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

Right?

*crickets*