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2/03/2008                                                                                       View Comments

Why I Became an Atheist

Former evangelical minister John W. Loftus would like to announce that his latest book — "Why I Became an Atheist" — will soon be released by Prometheus Books.

For about two decades John W. Loftus was a devout evangelical Christian, an ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and an ardent apologist for Christianity. With three degrees--in philosophy, theology, and philosophy of religion--he was adept at using rational argumentation to defend the faith. But over the years, as he ministered to various congregations and taught at Christian colleges, doubts about the credibility of key Christian tenets began to creep into his thinking. By the late 1990s he experienced a full-blown crisis of faith, brought on by emotional upheavals in his personal life as well as the gathering weight of the doubts he had long entertained.

In this honest appraisal of his journey from believer to atheist, Loftus carefully explains the experiences and the reasoning process that led him to reject religious belief. The bulk of the book is his "cumulative case" against Christianity. Here he lays out the philosophical, scientific, and historical reasons that can be raised against Christian belief. From the implications of religious diversity, the authority of faith vs. reason, and the problem of evil, to the contradictions between the Bible and the scientific worldview, the conflicts between traditional dogma and historical evidence, and much more, Loftus covers a great deal of intellectual terrain. For every issue he succinctly summarizes the various points of view and provides references for further reading. In conclusion, he describes the implications of life without belief in God, some liberating, some sobering.

This frank critique of Christian belief from a former insider will interest freethinkers as well as anyone with doubts about the claims of religion.

John W. Loftus (Angola, IN) earned M.A. and M.Div. degrees in theology and philosophy from Lincoln Christian Seminary under the guidance of Dr. James D. Strauss. He then attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, where he studied under Dr. William Lane Craig and received a Th.M. degree in philosophy of religion. Before leaving the church, he had ministries in Michigan, Illinois, and Indiana, and taught at several Christian colleges.

"Why I Became an Atheist" is an extensive revision of Loftus' previous works entitled "From Minister to Honest Doubter" and "Why I Rejected Christianity."

Recommendations of this book:

Both Daniel C. Dennett and Christopher Hitchens recommend it.

David Mills, author of the bestselling Atheist Universe: "From everything I've heard and read about this forthcoming book, it's going to be one of the top atheist books ever published. John Loftus has such a unique background and wit in his writings that I'm literally counting the days until it reaches my home via Amazon. Thank you, John, for your meticulous efforts to educate the rest of us about the many failures of theology."

Dr. James F. Sennett, Christian philosopher and author of Modality, Probability, and Rationality: A Critical Examination of Alvin Plantinga's Philosophy, and This Much I Know: A Post-Modern Apologetic (unpublished book): "For years I have been saying that Christian apologetics is answering questions no one is asking. Scholarly unbelief is far more sophisticated, far more defensible than any of us would like to believe. John W. Loftus is a scholar and a former Christian who was overwhelmed by that sophistication and damaged irreparably by the inadequate apologetics he had at his disposal. His story is a wake up call to the church: it's time for us to start living in, and speaking to, the real world."

Dr. Norman L. Geisler, Christian apologist and author of The Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics: "First [John's book] is an honest and open account of how a Christian became an atheist. Seldom are unbelievers so candid and open. Second, every Christian--let alone Christian apologist--can learn some valuable lessons from it on how to treat wayward believers. Third, it is a thoughtful and intellectually challenging work, presenting arguments that every honest theist and Christian should face. Indeed, some of his criticisms are valid.

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Edward Tabash, Attorney at Law, Chair, First Amendment Task Force, Council for Secular Humanism: "Among the general books refuting the claims of Christianity, John has produced one of the best presentations I have read. I recommend his book to all those who seek to study a comprehensive argument against Christian claims."

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Dan Barker, author of Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist: "As a former fundamentalist minister who has followed a similar path from apostle to apostate, I empathize completely with the deep struggle Loftus had to make in order to shed his former cherished beliefs. I respect his scholarship, but more than that, I admire his courage. There are many treasures in this book, as well as provocative and controversial arguments, all presented with a crystal-clear and brutal honesty that is rare in religious scholarship. Loftus is a true freethinker, willing to follow the facts wherever they happen to lead."

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Valerie Tarico, author of The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth: "What is unusual about Loftus is his breadth and depth of research in defense of the Christian faith before finally rejecting his faith. Loftus applies himself in this book with the same intellectual rigor he had applied to defending the faith, and effectively dissects those very same arguments. I found myself marveling at the impressively contorted reasoning used by apologists through the ages in defense their received traditions. Arguments on behalf of the "self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit" and the incarnation are extraordinary in this regard. These arguments are testimony to the power of the human mind when we are determined to make the evidence fit a preconceived story line---or when we are determined to hold an appealing belief despite being backed into an evidentiary corner. They are worth reading from the standpoint of cognitive psychology alone. It is thoroughly referenced, and quotes extensively from scholars on many sides. His encyclopedic knowledge speaks for itself."

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David Van Allen, webmaster of www.exchristian.net: "This book is an absolute 'must have' for anyone who has left the Christian faith or is having serious intellectual doubts about the Christian religion. While the book starts out explaining some of his experiential reasons for leaving Christianity, the volume goes far beyond a mere personal testimony and dives deeply into the elemental contradictions of Christianity. The plethora of scholarly works referenced in this publication places it amongst the better resources for the honest student. To do the volume justice one must be willing to follow the research that has been carefully documented by Loftus. For those without the time or interest to explore the mountain of references, this book will, none-the-less, provide a significant store for future study when time or necessity dictates. Loftus deals evenly with the issues, carefully explaining the strengths and weaknesses of each argument. Loftus' coverage of the problems inherent in the claims of Christianity is comprehensive. Much of what he wrote sounds like an echo of many of my own introspections except expressed through the well oiled mind of an academia. Loftus does not come away from Christianity with the deep bitterness that affects many in de-conversion, but rather retains admiration for the good influence Christianity had on his own youth. If you are an honest seeker, or an honest doubter; if you truly believe, or truly doubt; I highly recommend you add this book to your collection. "

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Richard Carrier, author of Sense and Goodness Without God, said this about The Outsider Test for Faith chapter: "that's an excellent chapter. The logic of it is insurmountable, in my opinion, even by a so-called reformed or 'holy spirit' epistemologist."

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Matthew J. Green: "It's not everyday that I get to befriend a fellow apostate and freethinker who left the Christian faith but also one who has a sharp theological mind such as John W. Loftus. A divinity school graduate with three master's degrees, a former student of William Lane Craig, and an academic star in his school days, Loftus has a formidable resume. That's why I was eager to purchase and read Loftus' book Why I Rejected Christianity. This book is one of the best introductory texts on the philosophical problems with Christianity."

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Christopher Hallquist, president of Atheists, Humanists, and Agnostics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and blog owner of http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com: "Where I'm not familiar with the material, I have found Loftus' book quite helpful. I also have no trouble saying the section on the problem of evil was top-notch. Loftus' extensive use and citation of existing material makes this an excellent guide to the literature for anyone who wants to do further reading."

"There are also a few real gems originality thrown in there. The best section, though, is at the beginning, in a section called The Outsider Test: "Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating." Here, Loftus solidifies an idea that has floated around in much skeptical rhetoric for some time. He opens up the possibility of consistently applying an idea that has so far only been applied haphazardly. When this is done, the effect is utterly devastating to religious belief. The Outsider Test should earn Loftus a permanent place in the history of critiques of religion."

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Joe E. Holman, founder of www.ministerturnsatheist.org, and author of Project Bible Truth: What Your Church Doesn't Want You To Know (Forthcoming):

"With excellent scholarship and thorough detail, Loftus powerfully and systematically dismantles the Christian religion, refuting long held arguments of apologists, laying to waste sacred and traditional beliefs of the faith."

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Chris Knight-Griffin:

"If you have questions about your faith, read this book. Those nagging questions are addressed and exposed. Every skeptic should have this concise reference book on the desk, dog-eared, tagged, and highlighted. I've read Sam Harris' book, The End of Faith, and Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion. I've read numerous books on the subject but John's book was what I was looking for. The other books hit the target but John's book hits the bulls-eye. I doubt anyone with faith could walk away from this book with that faith intact."

"This book is a reference tool with sources documented well beyond most books in this field. Literally hundreds of sources are quoted throughout and it is amazing that someone could sift through that much material into a succinct, scholarly and easy to read work. Awesome book!!!! It is honestly everything I've been looking for so far in my 'quest' for knowledge. Thank you!"

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Greg Meeuwsen: "I have read numerous publications on this topic, but I don't believe I've ever seen as many great reasons to reject religion in one place. John's arguments are numerous and rock-solid. The book reads without even a hint of condescending tone towards his former faith. It is obvious that the man is simply sincere, and he resorts to no personal attacks on any level. This is more than can be said of most current atheist authors. The level of research and brutal logic applied to the Bible is absolutely stunning, as is the sheer number of examples given. There is "no stone unturned", as Loftus takes on nearly every apologist angle ever conceived. This book will give more insight into scholarly unbelief than you ever thought possible."

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Paul Harrison: "If you read Christian apologetics, you owe it to yourself to have this anthology of the best arguments against Christian apologetics in your library."

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Andrew Atkinson: "I have read hundreds of Christian Apologetics books. I have read all of Lewis, all of Schaeffer, all of Peter Kreeft, all of Dr. Geislers including his encyclopedia A-Z twice and his systematic Theology twice, I have read Plantinga, McDowell, Craig, Ravi, Moreland, Swinburne, N.T right, Paul Copan Etc. I was until recently enrolled at Dr. Geislers school to study apologetics and philosophy. This year I decided in order to be fair and honest to read all the top skeptical books on religion. Your book was one of the first I read. Your book was the first skeptic book I read that made me seriously realize that I could be dead wrong! I think you have written by far the best overall refutation of Christianity in print. This is the best book to give to a believer. Your book has changed my life, and for that I cannot thank you enough.

I think your book is superior for multiple reasons:

1. Its scope and coverage is more exhaustive on issues crucial to Christianity then other books.

2. you anticipate objections from Christian philosophers and Theologians that most skeptics do not, due to there lack of familiarity with the other side.

3. The books packs so much in such a little space, it has amazing brevity and at the same time brilliantly dismantles many core Christian beliefs and deals with many central issues that are left out of other works.

4.Your familiarity with Christian Theology and philosophy makes you much better at drawing fine and important distinctions that other skeptics miss, due to their lack of expertise in the other side.

5. The personal Deconversion narrative woven through out the book gives it an informal and personal touch that makes it more fascinating to read then other skeptic books. Plus you are the only skeptical Author that I know of that was a highly competent Christian Apologist and Philosophers, this of course is another unique feature.

6. Your non-abrasive style sets your book apart from many other skeptic books. You wrote the book in such a way, as not to polarize the believer. The average believer would much more likely to read this book then other similar books due to your respectful manner."

16 comments:

John W. Loftus said...

Thanks so much David, for posting this. With the favorable reviews listed and several forthcoming ones, I'm pretty excited.

AtheistToothFairy said...

To John Loftus:

Hi John,

I've seen you post here once in awhile, so I would have to assume that you read some of what is posted here, now and then to?

If you do spend any amount of time reading here, then I'm curious if any of the 'arguments' your new book presents, might have had their beginning roots from some 'idea' that someone spawned in an article or comment here?

If so, can you cite any example(s) of such for the members here?


Thanks
ATF (Who has been most curious about your 'cowboy hat trademark' to)

John W. Loftus said...

ATF, I do read some of the stuff here. As a contributing member to Ex-Christian.net I sometimes write for this site.

But I cannot think of any argument in specific that had its beginnings here.

My hat is indeed my trademark hat. I'm the evil atheist bad boy! ;-)

Ziggy Blacktail said...

Good thing I came across this post today because I keep forgetting to add this book to the reading pile. For right now, I know Loftus's book as the book old Stretchy won't touch (I'm referring to a certain Catholic apologist here).

Dawkinswatch said...

How come am I not suprised that he went to a seminary and lost his faith?

The way seminaries are organised can lose you faith because they are closer to Deism than the gospel preached by Jesus and the first apostles.

Had he been healing the sick Iwould be shocked. I will get to read his book.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Dawkinswatch wrote:
How come am I not suprised that he went to a seminary and lost his faith?
---
Hey everyone,

Before anyone comments on Dawkinswatches comment here on loss-of-faith (which I know someone will), be sure to look at his website, where we can once again discover that evolution is wrong cause god-did-it.

http://dawkinswatch.wordpress.com/

ATF (Who doesn't have time, but hopes someone else does)

AtheistToothFairy said...

Re-posting this, because it didn't seem to make it into new-comments section
----
AtheistToothFairy wrote:

Dawkinswatch wrote:
How come am I not suprised that he went to a seminary and lost his faith?
---
Hey everyone,

Before anyone comments on Dawkinswatches comment here on loss-of-faith (which I know someone will), be sure to look at his website, where we can once again discover that evolution is wrong cause god-did-it.

http://dawkinswatch.wordpress.com/

ATF (Who doesn't have time, but hopes someone else does)

dawkinswatch said...

Well I do not know your experiences of christianity but it sonds like you were deprived.

I have plenty of fun because at the right hand of god are pleasure forever more.

stronger now said...

"I have plenty of fun because at the right hand of god are pleasure forever more."

Sounds like you're calling yourself god while you pleasure yourself with your right hand.

Were you trying to make some kind of point?

(Too easy)

Anonymous said...

What's on the lelt hand of gawd? jus wondering.

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now replied to dawkinswatch:
"Sounds like you're calling yourself god while you pleasure yourself with your right hand."
---
Hi stronger now,

I'm sure your correct about the pleasure factor, of one hand vs the other...haha


Dawkinswatch believes that seminaries can cause one to lose their faith.

While most of us ex-xtians do maintain that one only needs to actually read the silly bible book to lose one's faith, I never thought I'd see a fundie make a similar claim about a fellow xtian organization.

It sure seems that more and more, we see a trend here. A trend, that seems to say the 'secret' truths of the bible god can only be known by some very special chosen *individuals*, like this fundie here.
How many fundies come marching in here, claiming that they alone have been given the key to unlocking god's knowledge from the cryptic holy book and rejecting at the same time that any well known church also has that key.

How many have tried to lay the blame on our loss of faith, on this church or that church, all while ignoring the fact that it was god's very own storybook claims, that brought down this mythical house-of-god for us.

Dawkinswatch website seems to ignore the problems of an historical jesus.
I didn't see anything on this site that tries to make a case for such a jesus.
On the other hand, this website plays the usual fundie cherry-picking, fact-twisting, game of trying to disprove evolution and other known accepted facts of science and history.

It also spews the usual urban legends of miracles, such as one of "heart cavity being healed"
Sorry folks, I didn't see any miracles about arms and legs being restored, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we see news headlines where the xtian god is performing REAL miracles like this to.
In the meantime, I guess the faithful will have to settle for the usual subjective healings that last about the same length of time, as the emotional overload the victim feels when being prayed-over.

It truly amazes me how vehemently some fundies will fight and lie and twist facts, in order to maintain the reality of their god delusion.
Funny how the ticket to this god's powers, is always about blind faith and never anything from reality.

Now remember folks, it was the devil who planted all those fossils and bones in the earth, that continue to fool even present day scientists.

Noah surely had plenty of room on the ark for those house-sized dinosaurs, but god decided it had become a growing safety-issue for all the god-children to keep them as pets, so they stayed behind, just like the poor unicorns.

I don't know, surely those 'giants' of the old testament would have had giant children that could have kept the dino's safely as pets, no?
I think it was a bit unfair for god to kill off all the dino's he once created.
Perhaps, when he created them, his ability to foresee the future was on-the-fritz that day, hmm.

So how long does everyone think it will be before we read about this new fundie on the Darwin Awards website?


ATF (Who wonders if god still has the recipe for stegosaurs bone soup?)

SEO said...

I don’t know ‘bout ya’ll but I’m having a difficult time trying to wrap my poor, human brain around how heavenly pleasures could possibly beat some of the wickedly and delicious earthly pleasures. And if I had to give the earthly pleasures up for the heavenly pleasures, I don’t think I could. Starting with Nestle Toll House chocolate chip cookies or my grandma’s oatmeal cake, or Pillsbury orange cinnamon rolls. Or that feeling when you hold in your hand the newest book from one of your favorite author like J. K. Rowling. Or when on a Saturday morning after breakfast, you and a lover are snuggling on the couch and then suddenly it becomes a free-for-all and clothes go everywhere and things get all sweating and sticky.

AtheistToothFairy said...

SEO wrote:
Or when on a Saturday morning after breakfast, you and a lover are snuggling on the couch and then suddenly it becomes a free-for-all...
---
Hi SEQ,

Well, our taste buds aren't really the same, but I sure can appreciate the 'free-for-all' you speak about here [g]
Your thought about 'sex' is one I OFTEN wondered myself back in my xtian days, especially when I was a young adult.

When I would ask about if there was sex in heaven to those-in-the-know, the answer I pretty much received (across the board) was that "marriage ends at our deaths" (REF: The death-till-you-part in a typical marriage vow).

Of course, the underlying message here to my former younger mind, was that one had to be married in order to indulge in sex, so if there was no marriage in heaven, well, then there couldn't be any sex going on either.
While I knew I could easily give up things like eating, I wasn't so sure about having to give up having sex for all eternity. I wondered if when god turned us all into spirits, if our sex drives would somehow magically vanish in that transition.

Of course, demons were former angels and as I came to find out later on, there were stories of demons having sex with humans (even making women pregnant), so that must mean that angels/demons have a sex drive to.
I therefore concluded that it was possible we would continue to have a sex drive, but one still has to wonder exactly how two spirits have sex with each other.
Are there male and female spirits, with the appropriate 'hardware' to boot...LOL.
If they lack said hardware but still FEEL that old sex drive, then how cruel would that be, to feel the urge throughout all eternity but not be able to do a gosh darn thing about it.

The above was my way of trying to reconcile the sex drive in my younger xtian days that I knew I couldn't give up.
Now as an atheist, I no longer have to worry about such matters, as there is no heaven, no god and no endless orgies in heaven either.

Oh wait a minute, perhaps I'll reconsider joining the god bandwagon, if some xtian can offer proof that we can still have sex for eternity in the afterlife.

Okay xtians, whatcha-got to show me?


ATF (Who hopes two million year old males and females, don't LOOK that age in a sexual heaven)

stronger now said...

ATF:"While most of us ex-xtians do maintain that one only needs to actually read the silly bible book to lose one's faith, I never thought I'd see a fundie make a similar claim about a fellow xtian organization."

Funny how christians can claim to know THE TRUTH™ and be so afraid of it at the same time.

At the local atheist meeting I attended we got a visit from a christian who said that the reason he applied the biblical teachings to his life is because they work.

To which I explained my background and that the reason I don't apply biblical teachings to MY life is because they DON'T work.

It made everyone uncomfortable to hear my story, but I figured that if I was uncomfortable around people anyway, why not inflict discomfort on everyone else.(just kidding, but it did work out like this)

It's interesting to me that if someone finds that his/her application of biblical principles are not providing that "inner peace" and such, that another christian is quick to point out that it's false interpretations that are to blame. Which would make that person wonder how one can know the correct interpretations. So then they study the bible to find the answer and, often enough, they end up loseing their faith in it.

I can't claim that it's the same with everyone. It was a little different in my case because I put little stock into anyone else's interpretations and still managed to keep my faith in jeebus, untill it became impossible for me.

It's funny to see a christian that can claim to understand exactly what and where I went wrong in my faith and yet have little understanding of the fluctuating nature of a persons faith. It's as if they try to set up a concrete idea of faith that doesn't and shouldn't ever go through any changes. And yet I see a lot of christians now claim that atheists have a "childish" and "immature" interpretation of their bible. But if they use such a snapshot image of our former faith to judge our understanding, they are the ones with a childish and immature understanding of our former faith.

They don't look into how we ex-christians grew into, then out of our faith. They only see a set point of the proccess that led to deconversion, and then claim to have a complete understanding of our journey.

I suppose it's partly my fault I can't give someone else a complete picture of what I went through. In my testamonial I didn't put in how, for a while, I thought that there was a god but he just didn't care for me(predestination/christianity), then onto deism(post christianity but still a non-careing god), agnosticism and then atheism.

I suppose it has a lot to do with a fear of change. I mean, If they can accept that someone changes(grows) in their faith then why can't they accept that those small changes can lead to someone outgrowing their faith? It's similar way they look at evolution. They accept the small changes(micro) and suggest that those same small changes will not lead to a larger change(macro). So perhaps it's not fear of change exactly, it's more of a fear of the acceptance of change. They see their god change from the OT butcher to the NT burner. They just cannot seem to accept it.

I realize I have been speaking in generalizing tones, but I also know some christians who seem well defined by my characterization here.

Well, that's enough rambling for now. What do you think ATF?

--Stronger Now--(Who thinks two million year olds will define the term "boneing" in sexual heaven)

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now wrote:
At the local atheist meeting I attended we got a visit from a christian who said that the reason he applied the biblical teachings to his life is because they work
To which I explained my background and that the reason I don't apply biblical teachings to MY life is because they DON'T work.

----
Hi there Stronger',

First off, I think your "ramblings" (as you call them) have come a long long ways, in the time I've been reading them !!
I don't know how you've done it, but I for one, am quite impressed by many things you've posted in the past few months.

While it's obvious to you and I that the bible teachings are powerless to 'work' in our lives, you would be hard pressed to convince a blind xtain of this.
Sure, you can dig up a few gold nuggets from it's philosophy that would be useful in my opinion, but those nuggets aren't unique to the bible alone.
If you ask me, most of these gold nuggets are just common-sense principals, that surely would still exist today, even if the bible had never been written.

>It's interesting to me that if someone finds that his/her application of biblical principles are not providing that "inner peace" and such, that another christian is quick to point out that it's false interpretations that are to blame. Which would make that person wonder how one can know the correct interpretations. So then they study the bible to find the answer and, often enough, they end up loseing their faith in it.

It was those very interpretation problems that sparked the quest in my early years to discover who had it right, only to discover in the end, that no one did; nor could have.
As you point out, once you look too closely at the inner workings of the bible engine, you discover all the 'gears are stripped' in it's ability to transmit clear truths to the reader.

This is why I very much enjoy reading testimonies from ex-pastors on our site, because instead of ignoring the bible on the whole, as most xtians tend to do, they had to basically know it from cover to cover and yet they found they could maintain their faith for many years despite all the 'problems' inside it's pages.


>It's funny to see a christian that can claim to understand exactly what and where I went wrong in my faith and yet have little understanding of the fluctuating nature of a persons faith. It's as if they try to set up a concrete idea of faith that doesn't and shouldn't ever go through any changes. And yet I see a lot of christians now claim that atheists have a "childish" and "immature" interpretation of their bible. But if they use such a snapshot image of our former faith to judge our understanding, they are the ones with a childish and immature understanding of our former faith.

From what I've seen, most xtians do indeed have a concrete ideology of what they believe the bible is telling them.
I can't say that I ever fell into that concrete trap, because I had always questioned how one could be sure it was translated correctly and how some concepts that were obviously formed outside the bible pages, were known to be correct.
e.g. purgatory and limbo for instance.

While I may have favored one type of dogma over another for a time period, I was always willing to look at any new counter-proofs any sect had to offer.

Your idea of 'childish' interpretations also fits quite well, but this is not limited to just interpretations but the whole concept of buying into a creed that is as mythical as Santa becomes to growing child.
This is the very reason that this jesus is claimed to have said that one must be as a child.
i.e. just as gullable and trusting of supposed authority figures.


>They don't look into how we ex-christians grew into, then out of our faith. They only see a set point of the proccess that led to deconversion, and then claim to have a complete understanding of our journey.

From what I've seen here on our site, most xtians tend to believe we lost our faith soley because of an experience with members of some church that weren't 'true' xtians.
It is beyond their comprehension to realize that once one loses the ability to self-delude one's own mind, the faith goes down the tubes with it.
Once this so called faith goes bye-bye, a belief in the xtian god now requires real proof and of course, no xtian on the face of this planet has such proof to show us.

I think it's a bit humorous that most xtians (including my wife) will insist their faith is not "blind". They really hate it when we say they have blind-faith in their god.
I don't know what else one would call this type of faith they have, as it offers nothing from reality that would even merit the label of circumstantial evidence.

We don't need to actually 'see' this xtian god to believe.
Heck, I would settle for verifiable healings that only occurred when one prayed to the xtian god but failed when another god was 'summoned' for the same type healing.
Of course xtians are sure these healings go on all the time, but fail to take into account how subjective such things are, as we know full well that god doesn't perform undeniable type miracles, such as regrowing missing limbs.
I can't understand why these xtians aren't bothered by the fact that such miracles are suspiciously missing from their healing prayers.

As far as most xtians are concerned, we all had some trouble in our lives that made us angry at their god and at that moment the big bad devil whispered in our ears and took charge of our minds.
To them, that is the journey we went through and anything we say to the contrary is just the devil talking through us etc..


>I suppose it's partly my fault I can't give someone else a complete picture of what I went through. In my testamonial I didn't put in how, for a while, I thought that there was a god but he just didn't care for me(predestination/christianity), then onto deism(post christianity but still a non-careing god), agnosticism and then atheism.

This is the very path I also went down Stronger.
The only difference between us, was probably the effort I put into debunking the supernatural elements that many had claimed existed, with or without a god being involved.
Before I gave up on things supernatural, I still felt that there was some kind of god out there, even one vaguely tied to some version of the bible verses.
Once I realized all the supposed evidence for anything supernatural was made from lies, hoaxes, and non-critical wishful thinking, that made it clear to me that if some god is out there, he's not the type to give a hoot about this tiny planet and it's life forms.


>I suppose it has a lot to do with a fear of change. I mean, If they can accept that someone changes(grows) in their faith then why can't they accept that those small changes can lead to someone outgrowing their faith?

I guess the answer might be because xtians believe they were on a journey to find this god and once they found 'him', he can't just vanish.
It would be to them, like being lost in a forest for a long time and finally discovering civilization, along with the needed food and water etc..
Once you find that civilization, it would be hard to make an assertion that it never existed.
To them, finding their god (at whatever age they were) is almost as real as finding anything else that's part of our reality on earth.
Once you accept this premise of god being real, your mind adjust itself accordingly.
You then use your god-filter to view the entire world and whatever doesn't fit right, gets dismissed from the equation.

Until they themselves get smacked in the face with their first doubt and then chose not to ignore it but to pursue it out, they can never see the world from outside their god-bubble viewpoint.
However, until that first doubt hits home in them, they have no vantage point from which to understand how we all came to realize it's all been a cruel hoax or mind game, all along.

>It's similar way they look at evolution. They accept the small changes(micro) and suggest that those same small changes will not lead to a larger change(macro). So perhaps it's not fear of change exactly, it's more of a fear of the acceptance of change. They see their god change from the OT butcher to the NT burner. They just cannot seem to accept it.

Well, they really have no way to ignore the small changes of evolution, as it's something one can see happening in one own's lifetime, or far less.

Xtians are very use to thinking in terms of short spans of time for things to occur.
Heck, a god miracle happens in the blink of an eye, right.
Then, the whole darn universe was created in 6 days, to most of them.
If this is how you think, then the idea of something taking millions of years to happen, is something they have no ability to fathom in their short-term way of thinking.

Sometimes I think xtians are made up of people who are greatly impatient for things to happen, much as children tend to be.
One can be born-again without spending any real time reaching that goal.
See, one doesn't have to study for years to reach that goal, as one only need to ask jesus for it and wham-bam, you got it.
Talk about your instant gratification rewards huh.

>--Stronger Now--(Who thinks two million year olds will define the term "boneing" in sexual heaven)

Oh gosh Stronger, are you sure about this ?
It reminds me of a scene from some old horror-spoof movie, where two skeletons were having a heck of a time making love to each other...haha.
I guess sex will have a new sound for those bony xtians who live to be two million years of age....Clickity Clack, Clickity Clack.


ATF (Who thinks those of us being sent to hell, will still have our fleshly bodies for sex, just so we have something to feel god's divine flames licking at our ummm, parts.)

stronger now said...

"First off, I think your "ramblings" (as you call them) have come a long long ways, in the time I've been reading them !!
I don't know how you've done it, but I for one, am quite impressed by many things you've posted in the past few months."

Aw shucks! And thanks.

"ATF (Who thinks those of us being sent to hell, will still have our fleshly bodies for sex, just so we have something to feel god's divine flames licking at our ummm, parts.)"

LOL!