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5/30/2008                                                                                       View Comments

Some things never really sat right with me

By Heather H

This post is really mainly a rant, but it is also an actual question to all Christians out there.

The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place? An old one, perhaps, asked by many here, but over reading the Bible recently I’ve come to a conclusion, possibly a question a lot of people have come to... but I digress. It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.

I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk, (among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none). See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.

Yeah. That never really sat right with me.

But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex. (I give you that some Christians are persecuted… just not where you are if you live in any Western country).

The point is I’ve realised that even if Christianity was ‘the one true faith’ I could never join it. Not ever again. It would be impossible for me to do so.

No, I’m serious here folks. Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition? And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it? If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact? Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)

Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.

Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.

But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.

I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.

Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?

Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.

That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.

There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.

Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.

How can you expect me to respect such a person?

How can you respect such a person?

Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?

96 comments:

Onanite said...

Your post is so right on. Let's face it I could never believe in a god of love that would burn his children for eternity. I could not do it to my worst enemy.

Onanite

Hellbound Alleee said...

I can answer why a Christian would want to convert you. The answer is: their own self-interest. It's a Christian Duty to spread the world and collect the flock. Simple as that. When people resist, well, it's someone saying that you're wrong, I don't want to be like you, etc, and that pisses 'em off. It's not fun to have your values rejected to your face.

And we non-believers know a thing or two about that!

Steven Bently said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steven Bently said...

Religions are based upon being dishonest with yourself.

It's self deception. A lie, to cover up how the white man killed all the Native American Indians and it is used for justification to forgive every wrong done to another human being, the Bible is used to justify every war, every rape, murder, child molestion, bigamy, lie, cheat, and steal.

Religions are a mind set invented to take the focus away from the reality of humans' cruelty to other human beings.

Once confirmed in the Christians' mind, they are not willng to admit that they have been lied to by the people whom they thought were the must trust worthy people in their lives.

They cannot see, nor are they willing to admit that they have been lied to by parents, grandparents, teachers, preachers, doctors, lawyers, televangelists, political leaders, kinfolks, because we have all been lied to.

An xtain can find no fault in the Bible, to admit fault would also be admiting that they too were wrong and have been wrong in their thinking.

Nice rant btw.

DZsnakefoot said...

" I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person."

How absurd. Why would you value the life of a homocidal maniac more than your own? It seems you have issues of self-loathing that override common sense. What value to humanity is in preserving the life of a homocidal maniac?

somasight said...

Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan? Have you forgoton that Satan wants us all to burn and will do ANYTHING to make it so? You see, I am a Christian. I have been fro 20 years. I have read all these atheist websites and the only conclusion I can come up with is that Satan is real and is deceiving you!

How much more obvious can it be?

I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!

And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death? I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin! If Adam had not messed up and eaten that Apple we would never be in the situation we are in today! God ahs to follow rules to and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!

Listen I understand your search and all that but your post lacks ONE thing/

Faith.

You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?

FAITH IS THE BELIEF IF SOMETHING UNVERIFYABLE AND WITH LACK OF EVIDENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE.

I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.

Not because God wants you to, but because you made that choice! If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves now in this life how do you expect to go to Heaven?

I mean it is the easiest test in the world! There are mentally retarded people that can just bleiueve and are going to Heaven but there are geniuses like Einstein who failed the test snd npow will be goingto Hell.

Listen I live in the deep south and I have something to tell all you seekers out there.

I know a fancy pants lawyer named Stephen. He goes on all day how the Bible is contradictory and how he can show me 101 reasons why the Bible is bunk.

Then there is Carl. Carl works at the gas station with me on weekends and he is not very educated. In fact he is lucky to have gotton a job here at Value Gas cause he doesnt have a GED. But do you want to know something?

Carl believes!

Not because he has the "evidence" or the "proof" but because he trusts his moma and dada that they raised him right and were telling him the Truth about God and Jesus.

So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN. Do you see WHY that is so?

BECAUSE CARL HAS FAITH AND STEPHEN DOES NOT!

IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!

IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER

PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR STANCE ON JESUS AND PLEASE REMEBER THAT HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH THAT HE DIED FOR YOU AND CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU WONT BELIEVE IN HIM!

PLEASE!

Astreja said...

Oh, dear... (runs downstairs for a refill of Her single-malt Scotch)

Somasight: "Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan?"

Of course there's a Stan! He used to play Bass in My band. And there was the guy who used to play for the Chicago Blackhawks. (The Stan from Marvel Comics is pretty cool, too... 'Nuff said.)

"And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?"

That's one fucked-up problem-resolution system your imaginary friend has. May I suggest hiring a management consultant?

"I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!"

No, that's the result of superstitious bigots murdering people because some asshole priest told them it was "God's Will."

"...and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!"

Y'know, I think we should go kick the living crap out of that vicious bastard of a god instead. (Assuming that it actually exists, that is...) I'm free after supper tonight; want Me to do it? :D

"You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?"

Delusion.

"I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever."

Bring it on.

"If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves..."

We *are* giving Biblegod the respect it deserves.

None at all.

A deity that orders the murder of infants is not worthy of *any* respect.

How can you even think of worshipping such a hateful, immoral being? Are you so scared of Hell that you would lower yourself to kiss the ass of a torturer-god? Confront the fear, or it will haunt you to the end of your days on earth.

"So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN."

I have no doubt that you believe the above statement to be true. But can you actually prove it? Can you demonstrate (without resorting to the Bible or apologetics or your own faith) that your god and heaven and hell actually exist, somewhere in the universe?

Oh, and "faith" is one of the most useless and damaging concepts ever put forth by humanity.

- You can use it to pretend that invisible friends exist.

- You can use it as an excuse to not face reality.

- And you can use it to look down your nose at people who have seen through the smoke and mirrors and bullshit, people like us who have freed ourselves from the delusion of Christianity.

Wishing the very same for you, kid... Get well soon.

AtheistToothFairy said...

somasight wrote:
Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan?

Well sure Soma', I've actually met a "Stan" a few times in my life.
So yeah, I'd say Stan is just as 'real' as any other human I ever met.

> Have you forgoton that Satan wants us all to burn and will do ANYTHING to make it so? You see, I am a Christian. I have been fro 20 years. I have read all these atheist websites and the only conclusion I can come up with is that Satan is real and is deceiving you!
How much more obvious can it be?

Oh gosh, I never thought of like that before.
Imagine, there is a devil who's interfering with my thought processes for all these long years.

Does that mean Soma', that I have my own personal demon attending to my brain 24/7?
Just how many demons do you think there are on earth, that can baby-sit all us heathens 24/7?
Maybe the devil made a few million extra demons, as our population greatly increased through time?
He sure is one powerful devil....WOE. Just gotta respect that kind of power huh.


>I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!

You can't be serious, can you?
Nah, you have to be a troll that is toying with us, with lame comments like that..RIGHT?


>And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?

Well then, I got nothing to worry about, because when I die and am gone gone gone, my so called "sins" will be all paid up for. Thank goodness for small favors.

> I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!

Or it might be the result of some really mentally SICK story tellers of old.

>If Adam had not messed up and eaten that Apple we would never be in the situation we are in today! God ahs to follow rules to and the rules are that infants of sinners should die cause they will be raised to be worshipping another god anyways!

First off Soma', if you are going to preach at us, at least read your bible FIRST before you do. It doesn't say it was an "apple", but it does say it was a FRUIT.
Maybe it was a Banana, as that seems to be a xtian fundie favorite these days to talk about.

So if god fails to follow 'the rules', then who punishes god......another bigger badder god?

Yeah, I guess your reasoning about killing off the infants of the sinners makes great sense, especially when we look at how well it worked in your bible when god killed off everything on earth to erase the wicked.
Oh, you mean the wicked came back and god's plan FAILED.....say it isn't so please.

>Listen I understand your search and all that but your post lacks ONE thing/
Faith.

I have plenty of FAITH.....Faith, that you are severely deluded and we are not.


>You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?
FAITH IS THE BELIEF IF SOMETHING UNVERIFYABLE AND WITH LACK OF EVIDENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE.

Yes, your BLIND faith means you EASILY believe in ANYTHING that you so desire to believe in, whether it's real or not.
Catch any UFO's with little green men, in your backyard lately, hmmmm?
Just curious is all.

>I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.

What national news-show did you see this news flash on, because I must have missed it Soma.
Not to worry about the burning stuff, as I already packed up my marshmallows for the occasion. Well, that and my asbestos zuit-suit.
Hey Soma, don't forget, you have been elected to bring along the Jiffy Pop Popcorn, okay.

>Not because God wants you to, but because you made that choice! If you cannot even give him the respect He deserves now in this life how do you expect to go to Heaven?

How does one give respect to a thing that never existed?
Should I also give respect to Harry Potter and Spiderman, as well?

>I mean it is the easiest test in the world! There are mentally retarded people that can just bleiueve and are going to Heaven but there are geniuses like Einstein who failed the test snd npow will be goingto Hell.

Did it ever dawn on you that the reason they might believe in such delusions of the mind, is because they are "mentally retarded"?
No, I suppose such a thing would never dawn on YOU.

>Listen I live in the deep south and I have something to tell all you seekers out there.

REALLY?
The deep south, you say?
Gosh, you could have fooled me (or not).

>I know a fancy pants lawyer named Stephen. He goes on all day how the Bible is contradictory and how he can show me 101 reasons why the Bible is bunk.

Do me a favor and say HELLO to Stephen for us, as I have great RESPECT for him, far more than I have for your imaginary god being.

>Then there is Carl. Carl works at the gas station with me on weekends and he is not very educated. In fact he is lucky to have gotton a job here at Value Gas cause he doesnt have a GED. But do you want to know something?
Carl believes!

Please give my condolences to Carl. What a shame his mind is still stuck in your god bubble world.
Maybe if he got his GED he might have a chance of seeing reality.....Whatcha think Soma?

>Not because he has the "evidence" or the "proof" but because he trusts his moma and dada that they raised him right and were telling him the Truth about God and Jesus.

Oh, so you're saying his whole family suffers this delusion as well....poor things.

>So in a nutshell my buddy Stephen will be going to HELL forever and ever and my buddy Carl will be going to HEAVEN. Do you see WHY that is so?

No, but I see why YOUR thinking is all twisted up.
But it's never too late to go to school and get educated Soma......Hurry before it's too late as we don't live forever you know.

>IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!

So I take it you've seen and touched these "pearly gates", have you?

>IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER

I doubt Mister Einstein thinks he failed any test and in fact, right now he's not thinking much of anything, as he is quite dead, I'm SORRY to say.

>PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR STANCE ON JESUS AND PLEASE REMEBER THAT HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH THAT HE DIED FOR YOU AND CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU WONT BELIEVE IN HIM!
PLEASE!

How exactly does a figment of your imagination, "love me so much"?
I guess that is how it must feel to be loved by a star trek holodeck person, yes?

You can stop begging Soma, as any emotional appeal you will find totally useless here.
If you want to make an impression, try providing evidence of your god or jesus and then we'll discuss your claims.
Until then, crawl back into your safe god bubble and stay there please.


ATF (Who thinks Soma' named himself after the Muscle Relaxer "SOMA"; which might have 'relaxed' MORE than just some muscles)

exrelayman said...

Flash! Bridge for sale. Looking for investors that have FAITH in my prospectus (my prospectus says I have title to the bridge). People like Somasight and Carl need to act fast before it is too late.

Seriously folks, on this site that post must be one of us parodying a believer.

sconnor said...

This may be just me, but I think someone is pulling our Exchristian legs. There is no way Somasight can be for real. It's as if someone was writing a caricature of an ignorant christian, was pulling out all the stereotypes and was laying it on thick. All the retarded misspelled words, letting us know he was from the south, making asinine statements that not even some of our most delusional christians could make -- come on!

Somasight who are you? Come on, come clean.

--S.

Astreja said...

Sconnor and Exrelayman, I concur that Somasight could indeed be a spoof -- That last post was a veritable one-stop shop for silly apologetics at their ugly finest.

But then one must consider that, in order for a spoof to exist, it must have a referent in reality.

Or, to put it less kindly, there *are* people out there who actually think like that.

Scary stuff, boys and girls...

Brother Jeff said...

Have you guys forgot about the Truth and reality that there IS a Stan?

There are many Stans in the world, but no talking snakes.

Have you forgoton that Satan wants us all to burn and will do ANYTHING to make it so?

I think you meant "forgotten", and no, we have not forgotten your generally ridiculous yet at times heinously evil mythology.

I have read all these atheist websites and the only conclusion I can come up with is that Satan is real and is deceiving you!

How much more obvious can it be?


You mean encountering all of that truth, all of those facts, all of that reason, and all of that common sense really leads you to believe that we are deceived by a talking snake?

I mean our claendar is based on Christ and He is the nost well known figure in History!

I think you meant "calendar". Kryasst is the most well known MYTH in history!

And did you giuys forget that sin must be paid for with death?

I think you meant "guys". Sin is a mythological concept taken from an ancient Book of Myths. Nobody needs to Croak in the Spook for mythology or over a mythological concept.

I mean, you have 1 Sam 15:3 where God orders infants to be killed, this is the result of sin!

Your god is obviously a monster!

You need Faith to be a Christian. And what is Faith?

Yes, because there is NO evidence for the existence of God or for any major Christian claims. Faith is magical thinking and delusion.

I have got news for you. IOf you dont take that chance, the chance of believing in Jesus while here on earth while alove, you will burn forever and ever.

If you don't wake the fuck up and start thinking for yourself, you will waste the only life you have living in fear of ancient myths.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Astreja wrote:
Or, to put it less kindly, there *are* people out there who actually think like that

I very much considered this Somasight to be a spoof, but as sure as the sun will appear in the morning, there are indeed fundies who write and think this way.
If anyone has any doubts of such, please pay a visit to this site to see the fundie mind operating at it's 'best'.

http://www.fstdt.com/


ATF (Who wonders how such minds can even exist in this day and age)

WhateverLolaWants said...

I'm thinking Soma is faking it, but there are people who think that the infants of sinners must be killed. And to them I ask, why aren't you out there killing babies, then? Why bother evangelizing? Why campaign against abortion? Why help anyone who isn't your type of Christian?

That logic collides with basic tenets of human decency that even most FUNDIES practice. (Confronted with the tales of God killing babies in the OT, of course, they will find some justification, but that's beside the point.) For someone to come out and say it's okay to kill the babies of "sinners" (and I thought we were all sinners, so I'm going to assume Soma meant non-Christians) is pretty damn bold and out there.

Steven Bently said...

"FAITH IS THE BELIEF IF SOMETHING UNVERIFYABLE AND WITH LACK OF EVIDENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE."

This is 100% correct, it's called "BELIEF"

A Belief is not a "FACT"

A BELIEF is not an absolute FACT

A belief is an individual held position of "I think it is so, not because of any substantiated evidence, but because I want to believe it is the truth, mainly because my mommy and daddy said it is the truth and if I choose not to believe what my mommy and daddy say is true, then that would be like me calling my mommy and daddy liars and not to dishonor my mommy and daddy, I will believe what they say is the truth, because the Bible says not to dishonor my mommy and daddy, so that proves the Bible is true.

But it has never occured to me that they, mommy and daddy were just repeating what they too were told was true and out of respect for their parents they never questioned what their parents told them about the Bible being true.

(I'll refer you back to my original comment)


I've heard many preachers say, Satan believes in Jesus, if that being the case, John 3:16 states that Satan is a Christian.

Praise be to Satan and Jesus or is it, Praise be to Stan and Jebus?

Now I'm really confused, help me out there, somasight or is that obamasight?

Steven Bently said...

And just another damned thing!

If I was a god and I told someone not to eat my damned apple, I too would punish all people to an eternal hell, unless of course they kissed my son's ass, just like I asked them to.

webmdave said...

Soma has posted here before and the posts in the past appeared attempts at comedy.

He's a spoof.

Soma: please don't spoof this site.

Thanks.

boomSLANG said...

Webmdave...Soma has posted here before and the posts in the past appeared attempts at comedy.

He's a spoof.


Yes, I seem to recall the name, as well as the bizarre posts. The problem with spoofers is that it's often hard to tell the difference between the contrived stupidity of the spoofer, and the stupidity that is seemingly innate in the religious.

esther said...

Hi.
I hope not to speak out of a place of hate or anything like that...

Some of these questions I've thought about as well.

If you look at Christianity, it's a little crazy. It actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not. It's not about morality, but about humility...saying that we can't save ourselves. There's this strange idea of human imperfection that I think all of us implicitly recognize. But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody. He does not want to limit it to a few, for like you said, we are considered his children and he loves us. He doesn't say, only the smart ones, or beautiful ones, can be saved. He wants everyone to be saved: "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son" [john 3.16].
But for those who go to hell, someone once said it like this: God allows people to have what they want, though he desires so much for us to have what is better. Some people do not want to be near God, and so God allows them to choose what they want.

Where do our ideas of justice come from? We have this sense that when someone does something wrong, he must pay a penalty. In the same way, God is both loving and just. He loves us, but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it. Because he is holy, he cannot bear sin; there is a price for sin, and because God is just, he must stick to His word: that there is punishment for sin. If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect. But He's both things combined. This was an illustration that someone shared. It is like a king who orders that people shouldn't throw trash on the court[or whatever else], or will receive 100 lashings. His mother, however, proceeds to do so. What can the king do? Being just, he will not just change the rule or make one little exception for his mom. Rather, he orders that his mother be whipped. But at the last moment, he takes off his robe and his crown, and he covers the mom with his own body, and takes the 100 lashings. That is the kind of God Christians believe in- just, but also loving and merciful.

I understand what you mean about having trouble respecting a God who seems to be on a power trip, as seen in the Old Testament. But if you examine it more closely, it is not about a power trip. God is powerful, and that is undeniable. But most, God desires to save people, if they will turn to him, and wants to have relationship with them. He gives numerous chances to people and even sends people like Job to preach to places like Ninervah so that people will be saved. Additionally, even when the Israelites "cheat" on him by serving other gods, even after He has shown love and favor and himself to them, He continues to love them and be faithful to them. You might think that it's unfair, God only shows himself to the Israelites, but he actually chooses the Israelites so that they can bless other nations (the rest of the world) and so that they can know of his salvation. That becomes most clear through Jesus Christ, who is sent to save everyone who believes on him.

Something I have also come to realize, about the "power trip" God, is that God is deserving of glory. Think about how many human beings we worship today- rock stars, movie stars, etc., and how willingly we do so. But God is far more worthy of worship than them; he is perfect, and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship. As human beings, we rebel against this and don't want to hear it, because we want to worship ourselves. But if we truly came before something pure and perfect, if our hearts were humble, I think we would worship, and want others to worship as well. It's also God's realization of what is best for our hearts- when I really worship God, I am caught up in something bigger and far better than myself. I can stop being consumed by my own worries and doubts and self-interest. I don't know if you've ever felt that...just being sick and tired of being consumed by selfishness or self centeredness. But yeah, I would say perhaps look at the Old Testament again..."Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice." [Isaiah 30:18]. He WANTS to be gracious, he even gets up to show us compassion. There are undeniably accounts of warfare in the OT, but look carefully at the God that is depicted.

Why I would say Christians speak of their faith to you is because they do believe it is truth. But also because they see how much Christ has changed their lives. People are imperfect, and will always be so, but Christ is perfect, and is trying to make us more like him- more loving, gracious, serving. ...I can say that he has changed my life, and that things are not always perfect, but I always know he is the rock that I can stand on. And that his love for me is greater than I can ever know. I am enjoying trying to learn more about it now.

I can say many more things...about many religions being true: truth necessarily means there are things which are false. It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths, but that we love them and try to show them truth. Sometimes I think other religions for me capture some of the goodness and truth of God; it is not that they are entirely false, but that their hope is not what it should be [Christ], or it is not ultimately in what can save them. Yeah...and I often doubted, thought that religion was for the foolish and the stupid, etc. But looking back I see the ways in which I refused to see God when he was there, and how bitter my mind and my heart became, trying to hold that fort down of human independence against him. Cause like I said, we're imperfect, and so, the fort I'm trying to support by is always crumbling.

That is all...I'm sorry, I hope you don't mind this long post. And please let me know if you have any questions. There are always answers out there, if you are seeking.

boomSLANG said...

Esther...If you look at Christianity, it's a little crazy.

That's like saying that swimming in a tank full of tiger sharks with a ribeye attached to your foot, is a "little crazy".

Esther...It[Christianity] actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not.

Wow. Astonishing. A Christian who seemingly admits that "Commandments" and "Divine Laws" mean nothing; the only real "sin" is non-belief. True. Yet, I take it a step further, and say that non-belief in the non-evident cannot be a "sin". Therefore, there is no "sin", until you provide convincing evidence for the non-evident. Furthermore, if "Jesus" is allegedly alive---that is, if "He lives!"---then there is no/was no "sacrifice", as well.

So then---no "sacrifice"; no "sin"; no "salvation" = no "Christianity".

Esther...It's not about morality, but about humility

No, you had it right the first time--it's about belief in "Yahweh", the "God" of the Christian bible. Nothing else.

Esther......[Christianity is about]saying that we can't save ourselves.

Pardon me, but save ourselves? From whAT?

Esther...There's this strange idea of human imperfection that I think all of us implicitly recognize.

Honestly, what is so "strange" about it? Being imperfect is part of our very nature--it's part of our human nature. If we were perfect, we'd possess all the attributes/characteristics of "gods". And if memory serves me, biblegod is adamantly against all other Gods; He is a "jealous god", thus, what better way to see to it that no one surpasses his excellency, than to "create" beings inferior to itself. While were on the subject, I simply don't buy the christian concept that we were "created in God's image", because if that were the case, we'd lack the propensity to make imperfect decisions, as our great, great, great, great, etc., Grandparents did, in the alleged "Garden". Do you see the inconsistency there?

Esther...But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody.

I have to wonder what you mean by "open"? Do you mean, we are "open" to not accept "salvation" on "Faith"? Or is it, we MUST accept "salvation" on "Faith", that is, if we don't won't to be incinerated. Is not the latter senario what you really mean?

Esther...He does not want to limit it to a few, for like you said, we are considered his children and he loves us. He doesn't say, only the smart ones, or beautiful ones, can be saved.

No, not only the "smart ones", and "beautiful ones", etc..but only those who believe, as you were kind enough to point out to us from the onset. Thanks for that, BTW.

Esther...He wants everyone to be saved: "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son" [john 3.16].

You gave the PG13 version. The adult, R-rated version, is thus:

"He wants everyone to be saved: 'For God so loved the WORLD that He sent himself to be executed, so he could then manipulate his creation into loving him, to appease His own vanity'."

Esther...But for those who go to hell, someone once said it like this: God allows people to have what they want, though he desires so much for us to have what is better. Some people do not want to be near God, and so God allows them to choose what they want.

Forgive me, but the apologetic you just attempted amounts to equivocation, and weasle-wording.

If our "free will" is so important, there are myriad other ways for "God" to have its desires met, that wouldn't require "hell" as an alternative. For instance, he could just let us expire into oblivion if we so choose, and that wouldn't hamper our "free will". And any way, if "God" is really so "great" and a joy to be around, he's got nothing to worry about, right?(rhetorical)

webmdave said...

Esther wrote, "It's not about morality..."

Nope, it's not about morality. It's about having the correct ideas and attitudes about "right" religion. If you profess to possess the "right" religion, then your bad actions are quickly forgiven, forgotten and unimportant. If you profess to possess the "wrong" religion, or worse yet, no religion, then your good actions are worthless.

With Christianity, actions and behaviors are irrelevant. All that matters is that you "believe" the correct stuff.

Silly.

Raul said...

The point is I’ve realised that even if Christianity was ‘the one true faith’ I could never join it. Not ever again. It would be impossible for me to do so.
I fully agree. Another reason for this is the fact,that if we accept the concept of jewdo-christian God,then we have to accept that this omnipotent all-loving deity is the accomplice of every crime,that ever happened. For example,he could've stopped Hiroshima or Chikatilo,but he just sat back and watched.
Now to our trolls.
IT IS SO EASY TO GET IN THE PEARLY GATES!
Is this an euphemism for vagina?
IT IS SO SIMPLE THAT EVEN EINSTEIN FAILED THE TEST AND WILL ROAST AND TOAST FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER
Anyone who writes stuff like that MUST be a troll. )))
It actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are
That's another stupid thing about xtianity.
He wants everyone to be saved
EPIC FAIL!
Just kidding,even Bible says,that he doesn't:
re-read Mark 4:10-34, Luke 8:10 .
We have this sense that when someone does something wrong, he must pay a penalty.
HE,but not someone else. I mean,according to your logic we should've said to Chikatilo "3 inocent men died for your sins" and let him go,right?
He loves us, but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it.<...> If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect.
Oh really? Do you obey 613 commandments containted in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses? Especially,545-549?
he is perfect, and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship.
Would someone perfect and loving DEMAND worship?
if we truly came before something pure and perfect
Guess what? We didn't.
And that his love for me is greater than I can ever know.
I think,that you should try falling in love with someone more imperfect and less mythical.
It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths
Actually,you do.
"Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." (Exodus 22:19)

Raul said...

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Astreja said...

Esther: "[Christianity} actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not."

Which makes it completely useless as a way of life. In My opinion, people who willingly let someone else take the fall for something they didn't even do are cowards and moral eunuchs, and are in no position to inform civil society about what is "right" or "wrong".

AtheistToothFairy said...

esther wrote:
....but he is also not a God who just changes the rules whenever he feels like it.

So did god tell you that he will never change his "rules"?
Was this information given to you Esther, directly by god, or are you using 2000+ year old information from your bible book instead?

In either case, what evidence can you provide to us (or yourself) that your god put himself into a 'corner', where he will never allow himself to change any of these rules going forward?

Think about this....If god is real and all-powerful and decided to change the rules for you xtians, what will you and your ilk do about it, hmmm?

Take god to court?
Appeal to a higher god?
Wage war against god?

Why anyone would put such grand trust in some invisible, non-provable and non-active god, just shows me how gullible some folks can be.
It's okay Esther, you go right ahead and put all your 'money' on this god-gamble but please don't expect the rest of us to place our bets on your so called, 'sure-thing' .

> Because he is holy, he cannot bear sin;

So you're saying that god can't 'bear' sin, which means god must have feelings then, yes?
Isn't a god who has feelings, also a god who has weaknesses then to, hmm?
Think about that Esther.

>there is a price for sin, and because God is just, he must stick to His word:

Once again, what force in the universe is 'making' god "stick" to his word?

> If he were a God who simply arbitrarily made up the rules, or changed them, like you said, He would not be a God that I could respect.

Now you're catching on, almost.
Funny thing is that your god did in fact change himself over the eons, yet you xtians ignore that he did so. Why?

Oddly enough, even if your god were real, I would never respect the god that your bible portrays him to be !!

> His mother, however, proceeds to do so. What can the king do? Being just, he will not just change the rule or make one little exception for his mom. Rather, he orders that his mother be whipped. But at the last moment, he takes off his robe and his crown, and he covers the mom with his own body, and takes the 100 lashings. That is the kind of God Christians believe in- just, but also loving and merciful.

This is wonderful evidence that shows just how deep the xtian brainwashing can screw with a human mind.
If you could only see the illogic in your so called son-of-man having to sacrifice himself so his Daddy would look more kindly towards his human pets.
If that were the basic lame plot of a modern movie, the script would be burned in a heartbeat.


> God only shows himself to the Israelites, but he actually chooses the Israelites so that they can bless other nations (the rest of the world) and so that they can know of his salvation.

So you're trying to say that god just happen to have picked the Israelites, over any other nation, making them his "chosen people"?
So it's only coincidence that the Jews tell a story about THEIR god, and how their god protected them from all other tribes. Tribes that the Jewish god had no problem torturing and killing, right?

It couldn't possibly be that this Jewish god was just a mere fable the Jews made up.
Why is it that only the Jews knew of this particular god, until they told others about their god?
Why didn't god introduce himself to all the other tribes on earth, IN PERSON, like he did with the Jews?

Nice fable you got there Esther....what a shame you buy it so easily.



>Something I have also come to realize, about the "power trip" God, is that God is deserving of glory.

I don't think anyone here would say your god is deserving of "GLORY".
So I guess it's just your fellow xtians that assert this, yes?
While you're at it, please tell me what this word 'GLORY' is suppose to mean, hmm?


>Think about how many human beings we worship today- rock stars, movie stars, etc., and how willingly we do so.

Sorry, but I don't worship ANY of these, not a one.
I may like some of them, enjoy their acting or music, but they are not something to worship by any means.
Then again, neither is your make believe god for that matter.


>But God is far more worthy of worship than them; he is perfect

Who deemed this god "perfect"....YOU?
If he wasn't perfect, how would you know it?

> and he is loving, and that is why he demands worship.

No, he demands worship, because the folks who made him up long ago, decided that any god should be worshipped by mankind.
Folks like you don't bother to question that creed, so you just comply, see?


> As human beings, we rebel against this and don't want to hear it, because we want to worship ourselves.

Once again, I don't worship anything, not even myself, so you are out in left field once again Esther.
I will say however, that I will rebel against the god of your bible, as that god is a WACKO.


> But if we truly came before something pure and perfect, if our hearts were humble, I think we would worship, and want others to worship as well.

I would never want anyone to worship the god of your bible book !!
I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.


> It's also God's realization of what is best for our hearts- when I really worship God, I am caught up in something bigger and far better than myself.

Yes, and that bigger/better thing has a name to....It's called DELUSION Esther.

> I don't know if you've ever felt that...just being sick and tired of being consumed by selfishness or self centeredness.

Nope, can't say that applies to me...Sorry about that.

> There are undeniably accounts of warfare in the OT, but look carefully at the God that is depicted.

Doesn't it bother you that your OT god had to use humans to do all his fighting?
With such power, he could just remove the life force from any enemy troops, but instead, he actually lost a war because his enemy had "chariots of iron"....Go Figure Huh?


>Why I would say Christians speak of their faith to you is because they do believe it is truth.

Yes, and the Bigfoot folks and Alien/UFO believers, also speak of their beliefs because they believe them to be true to.
Belief in something doesn't make it real.....You might want to keep that in mind going forward in your life.


> But also because they see how much Christ has changed their lives.

No god changed their lives. They did it all themselves, or perhaps with some help from other humans, but for sure no god changed a single human at any time.
If god did so, please provide evidence of such...thanks.

> People are imperfect, and will always be so, but Christ is perfect, and is trying to make us more like him- more loving, gracious, serving.

Once again, how do you know your jebus is perfect?
Define 'perfect' for us please....thanks.


> ...I can say that he has changed my life, and that things are not always perfect, but I always know he is the rock that I can stand on.

Let's hope when your rock crumbles, that you don't fall TOO far or TOO hard.


>I can say many more things...about many religions being true: truth necessarily means there are things which are false. It doesn't mean that we condemn people from different faiths, but that we love them and try to show them truth.

No, what you and your kind do, is to try and brainwash everyone else into your delusional world. If you didn't feel so compelled to do so, and to influence our lives, then we wouldn't care what you think or believe when it comes to your god myth.


> Sometimes I think other religions for me capture some of the goodness and truth of God; it is not that they are entirely false, but that their hope is not what it should be [Christ],

I'm sure they would say the same about YOU and you kind to.
That you worship a false god and their god is the right one.
You ALL tell the same story to us, yet not everyone can be right, can they Esther?

>Yeah...and I often doubted, thought that religion was for the foolish and the stupid, etc.

You mean you once knew reality and somehow lost touch with it.....What a PITY.

> But looking back I see the ways in which I refused to see God when he was there...

Yes, and I refused to see Lord Zeus once upon a time and now well, oh heck, I still can't see him, but I know he is as real as your xtian god is.
How many gods do you now refuse to see Esther, hmmm?
I bet you turn your back on all of them, but the one you chose to get a big bear hug from, yes?

>That is all...I'm sorry, I hope you don't mind this long post. And please let me know if you have any questions. There are always answers out there, if you are seeking.

Yes, I have questions for you Esther.
You believe that jesus was real and was the son of god who walked the earth, yes?

Please tell me how you know this to be true?
Where is your historical evidence that such a jesus existed and did all those special magic tricks and then took a three day nap and then floated up to heaven to be with his Daddy?
Oddly enough, there is no record outside your cherished bible of such an event, yet you are positive that it happened.....WHY??????


ATF (Who wonders how many xtians this warped god-bubble can hold, and not bust open from the strain)

Lorena said...

If you look at Christianity, it's a little crazy. It actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not.


Ah, great! So if Josef Fritzl repents, he'll go to heaven. But other decent fathers who never even thought of touching their daughters indecently will definitely go to hell. Because, well, they didn't accept the sacrifice of Jesus.

Can't you see the non-sense of that? Frankly, if God wants me to believe in him, he will have to be more logical and just and MUCH smarter.

But yes, in that way, God leaves salvation open for everybody. He does not want to limit it to a few,

Yes, the Cristian god wants to limit it to a few: to the scum of the earth. There is plenty of room in heaven for all the criminals. Maybe I should become one!

esther said...

It[Christianity] actually does not judge you based on how good or bad you are, but rather, on whether you choose to accept God's sacrifice [Jesus] or not.

sorry, i just wanted to clarify this.
the sin is already presupposed. this is looking at the world around us- it is not as it should be, i think we can all feel that. there are good things, but there is also much bad, hate mixed into it.
by not making salvation a matter of getting the best grade in terms of "being good" [something that we probably could not do], God allows salvation to be given to all. on faith, yes, but if there is a willingness to see God where he is, that faith will be given and be had. the point is not that good people can't get into heaven if they don't believe; it's rather that all of us can't get into heaven, because none of us are perfectly good. so grace- a second chance, regardless of where you've been or what you've done- is given.
and having believed, actually being a christian is to push on to be a better person, to love others, to serve others, to forgive, to be just. and i hope that everyone does this, whether they are christian or not.

there actually also is historical corrobration for the existence of jesus outside of the bible, from historians josephus and tacitus.

that is all <3
for anyone with a desire for real truth, it is out there.

snez_4eva said...

the point you made about FEAR of God:

one dictionary definition of fear is: reverential awe, esp. toward God.

it actually has nothing to do with being afraid or frightened. everyone gets this mixed up. this type of fear actually means honour and respect - which is why people get confused. it is not saying to be afraid of God and respect Him at the same time. It is simply saying to respect Him. We get confused because we aren't used to that use of the word fear.

I understand that you have many other complaints against christianity and God, and I understand that. I just wanted to clear that one thing up for you.

Hope it helps!

psychman said...

Hi Esther,

I would like to ask you a couple of question. Do you accept the possibility that your position may be wrong? Would that not be a position of intellectual humility on your part? Do you take the position that your beliefs are the superior ones that others, such as ourselves (atheists) should take on if we are to be part of god's family?

On what basis do you accept the idea that god as revealed in the bible is the one true god? Is it because the bible says so? Have you thoroughly read what other religions say about their version of god?

Would you not agree with me that if all people simply lived by the golden rule then getting along on planet earth would be much easier?

And if you do believe that the god of the bible is the one true god why did he wait for thousands of years before intervening in human affairs?

Why is belief in a "middle eastern" god more plausible than belief in the god of the Aztecs or babylonians or any other people group throughout history?

I have many more questions but if you can address these then perhaps we can all begin to see who we are dealing with here.

Thanks,

Astreja said...

Esther (who, unbeknownst to her, is in waaaay over her head) said:

"sorry, i just wanted to clarify this.
the sin is already presupposed. this is looking at the world around us- it is not as it should be, i think we can all feel that."

Bad behaviours, natural disasters, and nature red in tooth and claw are real.

"Sin" is none of those things. It is a religious construct with no anchor in reality, because the god who has supposedly been violated has not been proven to exist.

"...it's rather that all of us can't get into heaven, because none of us are perfectly good."

No, the reason we can't get into "heaven" is that the very existence of the place is unproven and highly improbable.

"...actually being a christian is to push on to be a better person, to love others, to serve others, to forgive, to be just."

Christianity has no monopoly on the idea of being a good person. None.

It does, however, taint the human mind with the idea of hereditary evil.

Then it offers as a "cure" the obligatory worship of a zombie rabbi who was sacrificed to appease a bloodthirsty and genocidal god. I'll give that particular remedy a miss, thanks.

"for anyone with a desire for real truth, it is out there."

Possibly. But it almost certainly isn't in the Bible, nor is it in Christianity.

Oh, and don't waste your time with Josephus. The original text has been tampered with, the reference to Jesus having been added several centuries after the original writing. For instance, Kenneth Olson of the University of Maryland makes a rather good case for the Testimonium Flavianum being the work of Eusebius.

As for Tacitus... At the alleged time of the Gospel events, he hadn't even been born. Definitely not an eye witness to anything meaningful.

psychman said...

Oh, one other thing.

I was thinking that most of the christians that post on this site are perhaps not true christians. What I mean by this is that perhaps what most people mean when they say that they are christians is that they simply desire to live a good and ethical life.

By saying this I am not giving the religion a pass but rather that most of the "rank and file" that fill up church pews are really not aware of the "fine print" that is a part of their adopted world view (christianty).

I think that most of the rank and file christians are simply people who want to somehow "change" their lives through something, anything; even if that is religion. Look, there is no end to the trail of TV preachers that constantly promise their viewers that god is "about to do something great" in their lives. Preachers who make such promises holds tremendous appeal to individuals who have never had to deal with the existential questions that most of us atheists have already dealt with.

The fact that someone else is promising to "take them into the promised land" is appealing to the intellectually unsophisticated.

Anyway, these are some ideas that I've been thinking about when it comes dealing with christians in everyday life. I know that there are fanatics out there that are truly deluded and make things difficult for others. It is annoying to hear and read other christians posts because we've come out of that religious thinking.

Well thanks for reading.

esther said...

i agree that that is the intellectually humble position. but i think that position needs to be adopted by each side. i have adopted the other side- and i have gone, if not to atheism, to agnosticism and back.
i believe, not simply because of the Bible, but because of what i see morally, historically, experientially.
and i don't view this, couch this in terms of superiority or not...that is not what i believe christianity is about. yes, i believe it as true, and then people can interpret that as my saying my beliefs are superior, but what motivates me to even write on this wall is if i believe that if there is real love, true love in God, and his message, i would desire it for all those i care about, and humanity. i can't force anyone to be a part of God's family, and i won't, but i can try to say what i believe, just as you can. this is good so that lots of people can dialogue. and i see that there are a lot of presuppositions that go into that, because of different views of the desirability of being in God's family or even what that family is like. but yeah. i don't think i am superior because i have experienced faith, nor am i deserving of the faith i have, but i am blessed.

on christians, people do desire change, but i believe that desire comes from somewhere. and people desire all the things that -maybe material wealth or success or fame- but i am not in it for the prosperity gospel. i know the fine print, and i am trying to learn more about this God because i believe knowing him is "eternal life". not because i simply want to gain a free pass to heaven, because i have found nothing on this earth that satisfies, but have found it in the glimpses i have of God. i have struggled with existential questions- "everything is meaningless"- and that is what has led me to christianity.

Would you not agree with me that if all people simply lived by the golden rule then getting along on planet earth would be much easier?
i agree. so much. i think many people would. but i do not think it is possible, at least from what i have seen in myself and in others. and i think the world as it is now shows this. human nature is a certain way, and i think that christianity explains why it is so. there are definitely other explanations, but i think christianity as a whole worldview most broadly encompasses and explains what i see.
but i think that is the greatest question- i desire to live by the golden rule, i desire for a world in which everyone lives by the golden rule. and i sincerely believe its not possible on my own strength. christianity certainly does not have the monopoly on who is good or not. that is clear, for there are many atheists, people of different religions who are far better than i am or any other christian. but i believe people who sincerely believe in christianity are those struggling to become better people, because of the example they have in christ. and i believe in that, the heart is changed, which can provide the most lasting change of all, not just external actions or resolutions that may often peter out, as well as a real reason and hope to keep trying. im sorry if all you see are hypocritical christians around you.
but yeah...i dont believe in self hatred, castigation. i believe in a changed life that strives to do good in this world and love others and God.

forgive me if i created more problems or more questions. that again, as a christian, i believe- i am human, and imperfect. that's why its not that i desire for others to believe in myself, but in christ.

i probably won't post again, but these are some sites that talk more to apologetics and say much more than i would be able to.

1. www.carm.org
2. www.equip.org
3. www.reasonablefaith.org
4. www.bethinking.org
5. www.probe.org
6. www.apologeticsindex.org
7. www.watchman.org

<3.

Astreja said...

Esther: "i agree [about the Golden Rule] so much. i think many people would. but i do not think it is possible... i desire for a world in which everyone lives by the golden rule. and i sincerely believe its not possible on my own strength."

I think that it is possible. Difficult, yes, but not totally beyond our reach. The important thing is to just keep trying.

webmdave said...

The Golden Rule isn't all that a bag of chips.

Think about it: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am an introvert, love being alone and prefer that other people leave me alone. I do not enjoy getting public recognition at work. I like things quiet. If I were to treat everyone they way I want to be treated, I'd speak rarely, only privately recognize employees, and appear to virtually ignore nearly everyone around me so as not to bother them. I would be treating others the way I want to be treated.

I also have no expectations or desires to have anyone help me with my finances, my health care, etc. I prefer taking care of my own problems in my own way without help or interference from the government, a church, or anyone else. If I were to treat everyone the way I want to be treated in this area, I would stand against all social programs of any kind. I want no handouts from social programs, so treating others the way I want to be treated would be to do what I could to abolish all social programs.

I am aware, however, that not everyone is like me, nor would treating them the way I want to be treated be something everyone would appreciate.

The Golden Rule is imperfect. It is not divine revelation.

A better rule might be what is known as the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

The Golden Rule is all about self "Surely everyone would want to be treated just like I want to be treated, right?" The Platinum Rule is all about others. "I am learning how to treat others they way they want to be treated.

Platinum Rule

I'd think a real god-man could come up with something a little less imperfect than the Golden Rule.

boomSLANG said...

Esther is back, with... i have adopted the other side- and i have gone, if not to atheism, to agnosticism and back.

Irrelevant conclusion. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, specifically, lack of knowledge; it does not deal with belief, or lack thereof.

Religious "faith" is essentially a type "agnosticism", for if you knew your beliefs were true, you would not need "Faith"---and additionally, we could expect you to have some verifiable, testible/falsifiable evidence to substantiate your supposed "knowledge". To my understanding, you have no such evidence. In fact, we see an admission of the extent of what you wish to qualify as "evidence", in your very next statement....

Esther...i believe, not simply because of the Bible, but because of what i see morally, historically, experientially.[bold added]

Giving benefit of the doubt, the question that would immediately arise in my mind, is why "faith" in the first place? Are you not entering the above extra-biblical references, in an attempt to affirm your beliefs to us, and/or, yourself?

On the other hand, if we remove the benefit of doubt and challenge your "evidence", then what you "see morally" is, AGAIN, simply human beings acting in accordance with their very nature..i.e..HUMAN nature. We've established that human beings behave/act less than ethically at times. I'm sorry, but this is NOT evidence for anything "supernatural", nor is calling unethical behavior a "sin", evidence for anything. In fact, calling unethical behavior a "sin", as in the suggestion that it is something "wrong", would be totally redundant from the Christian perspective. This is because "sin" is presumably something that we are innately predisposed to in the first place; we cannot avoid it. From the Christian perspective, you can only be "forgiven" for being a "sinner"; you cannot avoid being a "sinner".

Esther...and i don't view this, couch this in terms of superiority or not...that is not what i believe christianity is about.

Yes, yes, of course!...that's not what you believe Christianity is "about". Nothing astonishing about that. The problem is, whose interpretation is "right", and whose is "wrong", and how is it determined, objectively? 'Listening.

Esther...yes, i believe it as true..

You state the obvious. The problem, is that the evidence that presumably supports what you "believe", is not obvious. Hence, "Faith"?

Esther...and then people can interpret that as my saying my beliefs are superior, but what motivates me to even write on this wall is if i believe that if there is real love, true love in God, and his message, i would desire it for all those i care about, and humanity.

Firstly, "true love" doesn't have strings attached.

Secondly, the "message", in a nutshell, is that we are to love "Jesus", accept his "free gift", or be roasted in Hell for eternity.

Esther...i can't force anyone to be a part of God's family, and i won't, but i can try to say what i believe, just as you can.

You said what you "believe", and frankly, it's severely lacking, IMO. Until you provide better evidence for your beliefs, there is no "God's family"; there is only the human race, and everything else that occurs in nature.

Esther...this is good so that lots of people can dialogue. and i see that there are a lot of presuppositions that go into that..

My 'presupposition' is that it's a good idea to believe in things that have a referent in reality. I'm biased in that regard, yes.

Esther... i don't think i am superior because i have experienced faith, nor am i deserving of the faith i have, but i am blessed.

Forgive me, but I see the above as pure double-talk. You've said nothing.

Esther...... people do desire change, but i believe that desire comes from somewhere.

Yes, it comes from the will to actually live, as opposed to merely existing. Some people are perfectly content "going through the motions".

Esther......i know the fine print, and i am trying to learn more about this God because i believe knowing him is "eternal life".

By "fine print", I take it you mean the most widely accepted source for "knowing him" in existence, that being, the Christian bible. Well, if that's the case, then you should know that no document can be its own source. Extra-biblical sources hinting at a "historical Jesus", are not evidence for a "Divine, Supernatural, Miracle-working, Creator of the Universe".

Esther...... i have struggled with existential questions- "everything is meaningless"- and that is what has led me to christianity.

Yes, we're all too familiar with this apologetic:

1) Without God, life is meaningless

2) therefore I believe in God

3) therefore God exists

4) therefore Jesus is Lord

Esther...human nature is a certain way, and i think that christianity explains why it is so.

Yes. Let's review the Christian explanation:

A flying, self-existing, disembodied ghost made two Caucasian prototypes out of dirt, put them in a garden, where unbeknownst to them, there was a talking snake who sought to get them to do what the Ghost told them not to do. The talking snake succeeded, and now all of humanity is cursed with the characteristic of imperfection.

'That about sum it up?

Esther....... these are some sites that talk more to apologetics and say much more than i would be able to.

1. www.carm.org
2. www.equip.org
3. www.reasonablefaith.org
4. www.bethinking.org
5. www.probe.org
6. www.apologeticsindex.org
7. www.watchman.org


Been there; got the T-shirt. 'Ever try reading anything critical of Christian "apologetics"????

kataklysmkevin said...

The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place?

Obviously you make sweeping generalizations about christians, placing them in the "they" category. There are various reasons, but the main is so that you may seek Truth.

It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.

No one can make you believe anything, it's a choice. Again you are making assumptions, every person has a different perception of who God is. But He remains the same, Love is eternal.

I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk,

I also believe the concept of fundementalist creationism is silly. But that doesn't discredit the creation itself. Science for me complies with God's creation, everything in the universe is an elaborate system of life.

(among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none).

See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.

It doesn't make sense does it? That is why we as humans find it morally repugnant, such a black and white judgement can't be made with us. Nobody knows whether you go to hell or heaven, it is between you and God. Don't assume that people are going to hell and you will find it's much easier to live your life. You don't know someone else's fate, simple as that.

But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex.

No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part. There are also countless stories of God's love and mercy as well.

Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition?

Exalting God above your self ego

And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it?

Because not everyone agrees on everything, just like the million-and-one factions of any other religion

If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact?

Simply believing in not acting does not do anything. In Matthew 6 Jesus speaks clearly about these people.

Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)

Conviction in your life is required. You simply can't follow God and yourself. We can't serve two masters.

Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.

Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.

Fearing God is the beginning of knowledge. It's in psalms. You fear God so that you may have no fear of anything else, whether it be death, rejection, or hopelessness. Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.

But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.

He that gives us life out of the darkness? He that loves us more than we can love ourselves? He that has shown his mercy in all our lives over and over again? If that doesn't deserve respect, I don't know what does.

I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.


Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?

Your loading your question with logical fallacies that aren't God. God is not a person, it's God. Your analogy is somewhat dry, and doesn't represent the true nature of God.

Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.

That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.

There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.

Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.

How can you expect me to respect such a person?

How can you respect such a person?

Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?

My life's conviction and path to God can't be simply fear of Him. That is just the begining of knowledge, after this, He continues to give us wisdom and instruction to live a fulfilling life that doesn't concentrate on self. Your judgement shall be held between you and the Lord, for me it does all matter at the end. Because I want to be proud of every good deed I can do and look back and see the triumphs of overcoming sin in my life.

kataklysmkevin said...

The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place?

Obviously you make sweeping generalizations about christians, placing them in the "they" category. There are various reasons, but the main is so that you may seek Truth.

It’s really doing my nut though and makes me wonder why on earth people would even try to make me believe in their version of a god.

No one can make you believe anything, it's a choice. Again you are making assumptions, every person has a different perception of who God is. But He remains the same, Love is eternal.

I first stopped really believing in that religion mainly due to scientific proof showing the creation story to be absolute bunk,

I also believe the concept of fundementalist creationism is silly. But that doesn't discredit the creation itself. Science for me complies with God's creation, everything in the universe is an elaborate system of life.

(among other stories); as well as making a few friends of other faiths in university (or none).

See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet.

It doesn't make sense does it? That is why we as humans find it morally repugnant, such a black and white judgement can't be made with us. Nobody knows whether you go to hell or heaven, it is between you and God. Don't assume that people are going to hell and you will find it's much easier to live your life. You don't know someone else's fate, simple as that.

But I’ve come to a rather larger stumbling block that would never let me go back to that faith ever. It really boils down to the old testament. Another old reason flung around here, but bear with me. The god in that collection of stories is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex.

No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part. There are also countless stories of God's love and mercy as well.

Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition?

Exalting God above your self ego

And why has no-one told the million-and-one factions about it?

Because not everyone agrees on everything, just like the million-and-one factions of any other religion

If it is simply believing- does that mean everyone would automatically be one once it was proven to be fact?

Simply believing in not acting does not do anything. In Matthew 6 Jesus speaks clearly about these people.

Would I become one all the same after my ‘eyes were opened’? Or is something else required? But I digress. I’m getting off track here.)

Conviction in your life is required. You simply can't follow God and yourself. We can't serve two masters.

Christianity tells us to fear ‘God’ and if God came down on high and told me to ‘turn or burn’ quite certainly, I’d be scared, exceedingly so too. I probably wouldn’t be able to speak or even move. Probably not even to run or scream. I’d be terrified and rightfully so.

Would I fear him? Certainly. Of course I would. I’d be a fool not to.

Fearing God is the beginning of knowledge. It's in psalms. You fear God so that you may have no fear of anything else, whether it be death, rejection, or hopelessness. Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.

But would I respect him? That would have to be a no.

He that gives us life out of the darkness? He that loves us more than we can love ourselves? He that has shown his mercy in all our lives over and over again? If that doesn't deserve respect, I don't know what does.

I’d only fear such a god as I would if I was locked in a room alone with a homicidal maniac with a large array of weapons. I’d be scared in such a situation- I might do my best to avoid getting killed in any way possible (up to a certain point- I wouldn’t kill anyone/let him kill someone in exchange for my own sodding life for instance), but I wouldn’t- scratch that- couldn’t respect such a person.


Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?

Your loading your question with logical fallacies that aren't God. God is not a person, it's God. Your analogy is somewhat dry, and doesn't represent the true nature of God.

Such a person stirs within me: anger, fear, maybe even a drop of pity mixed in at such an obviously warped individual. But never respect.

That’s right, if your god was true, I would also even slightly pity him, as much as I would dislike him. After all he certainly has a strange version of what ‘love’ and ‘justice’ really is, which even some of the youngest children have some concept of.

There is a big difference between fear and respect. You can have both at the same time, but it is not a requirement, you can have one without the other in any case. Yet a lot of people can’t seem to differentiate the two. Evidently many Christians would fear AND respect him. But I couldn’t do the same.

Your god would only ever stir up fear for me, but not respect. I couldn’t respect him. It would be impossible.

How can you expect me to respect such a person?

How can you respect such a person?

Do you simply fear him then? If so, are we really that different after all in the end? Apart from the fact that you believe in him, and I don’t- are our opinions on him really that different after all in the end?

My life's conviction and path to God can't be simply fear of Him. That is just the begining of knowledge, after this, He continues to give us wisdom and instruction to live a fulfilling life that doesn't concentrate on self. Your judgement shall be held between you and the Lord, for me it does all matter at the end. Because I want to be proud of every good deed I can do and look back and see the triumphs of overcoming sin in my life.

Franciscan Monkey said...

kataklysmkevin wrote:

Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.

Sorry, but the fear of "God" often does the opposite, it turns people's actions into evil deeds. Many people throughout history have committed atrocities for no other reason than the fact that they feared God and thought that what they were doing was pleasing to God. The story of Abraham intending to sacrifice his son Isaac, although fictional, shows the mentality so often diplayed in the Bible that if God tells us to do something, well, we better do it, no matter how immoral of an act it might be.

You continued:

No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part.

And ignoring the atrocities committed and/or commanded by this alleged God in the OT is stubborness on your part. When God commands ethnic cleansing, the killing of entire groups of people, including infants, and the rape of young virgin girls who were spoils of war, he shows himself to be a monster on the same level as Adolph Hitler. In fact, much worse than Hitler, since supposedly God is all-knowing and all-powerful. You can try to make all the excuses in the world for him, but God in the OT is an evil being. He doesn't get that much better in the NT, either. In Matthew 7:13-14 we read, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." So we see that few will be obtaining eternal life, and the majority will be punished in hell. Anyone who sends the majority of people in this world to hell is an evil being. Even if the NT God were all about peace, love, and happiness, that does not excuse him from his previous atrocities. When society catches a murderer who has been on the lam for years or decades, they don't just forgive him because he's done some good things since then.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

boomSLANG said...

snez'...one dictionary definition of fear is: reverential awe, esp. toward God.

it actually has nothing to do with being afraid or frightened. everyone gets this mixed up.


Yes, mixed up. So, corrected, what you seem to be saying is that human beings shouldn't be "fearful", as in the sense "frightened", that the Creator of the Universe will banish them to a "lake of fire" for noncompliance, but instead, be in "awe" of it. Is that a fair assessment?

kataklysmkevin said...

Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.

Sorry, but the fear of "God" often does the opposite, it turns people's actions into evil deeds.

Those are just people with intentions of being evil in the first place. Personally, it turned me from evil deeds. Wanting to pursue good deeds, and helping others where I can. Such acts of selflessness never occured to me beforehand.

Many people throughout history have committed atrocities for no other reason than the fact that they feared God and thought that what they were doing was pleasing to God.

Pleasing God does not come in committing atrocities. It comes in being Christ-like, and self-sacrifice. Forgiveness of others. Some people just want to justify their actions.

The story of Abraham intending to sacrifice his son Isaac, although fictional, shows the mentality so often diplayed in the Bible that if God tells us to do something, well, we better do it, no matter how immoral of an act it might be.

He Feared God, so He did what he was told. God didn't make him kill his son though. He saw that Abraham loved God above all, because what the Lord can giveth, he can taketh away. Now you have me to question, what is morality by your standards?

You continued:

No it doesn't boil down to the old testament. It boils down to the big picture about God. If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude the New Testament that is ignorance on your part.

And ignoring the atrocities committed and/or commanded by this alleged God in the OT is stubborness on your part.

I accept these parts of the bible, I didn't deny that. That all depends if you think the Bible is completely literal. In this day and age, I don't see God commanding or committing these things, I only see humans doing the killing here. All I see is His presence in my life changing the way I see things and creating a force within me to do good unto others.

When God commands ethnic cleansing, the killing of entire groups of people, including infants, and the rape of young virgin girls who were spoils of war, he shows himself to be a monster on the same level as Adolph Hitler.

He who creates all things, I believe has authority to destroy.

In fact, much worse than Hitler, since supposedly God is all-knowing and all-powerful. You can try to make all the excuses in the world for him, but God in the OT is an evil being.

How can God be evil, and good at the same time? He can't. God's nature does not change, God is Love. I can't account for things God has supposedly done in the past, regardless of this I can't make excuses to not believe in Him. He has given me life from darkness.

He doesn't get that much better in the NT, either. In Matthew 7:13-14 we read, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." So we see that few will be obtaining eternal life, and the majority will be punished in hell.

It's as clear as day to me, it's not an easy path. But you added words of your own from your interpretation on what it means. I clearly do not see where He says the majority will be punished in hell. It says wide is the road that lead to destruction, doesn't say "hell". If you read it more deeply, it's inspiritation to get out of self-destructive lifestyles.

Anyone who sends the majority of people in this world to hell is an evil being.

That is because you already assume someone's destiny to be in hell. We don't know someone else's judgement, the only accountable one for our personal actions are us. God judges fairly and righteously.

Even if the NT God were all about peace, love, and happiness, that does not excuse him from his previous atrocities. When society catches a murderer who has been on the lam for years or decades, they don't just forgive him because he's done some good things since then.

So you just hold a grudge against God for murders that you never witnessed? Is it fair for you to judge God upon human standards of morality?

Don't take me the wrong way here, I don't wish to sound aggressive or attack (because much is lost through internet texts), just explaining my views of your concerns.


Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

boomSLANG said...

From the original article: "The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place?"

kataklysmkevin responds..Obviously you make sweeping generalizations about christians, placing them in the "they" category.

Generalizing that all Christians seek to convert people, is, yes, an inaccurate generalization. However, refering to all people within a specific category as "they", is a perfectly reasonable application...e.g.."they are believers", with "believers" being the established "category".

kataklysmkevin...There are various reasons[that some Christians seek to convert people], but the main[reason] is so that you may seek Truth.

This makes the rather pompous assumption that those who have examined Christianity and found it lacking in any way, and/or, not true, are people who have not found "Truth", and therefore, they are people who are not "seeking Truth". Again, pompous, arrogant, self-righteous...these are just some of the adjectives that immediately come to mind.

kataklysmkevin...No one can make you believe anything, it's a choice

In an absolute sense, true, no adult can "make" another adult believe something. But in an indirect sense, you can make someone believe something using such tactics as manipulation and coersion. For instance, a mugger can "make someone believe" that it's in their best interest to give up their wallet, or purse. In other words, while the victim still has "free will", they cannot use it freely; it now has a cost...i.e..their life. The concept of threatening "Hell" for noncompliance, is no different.

kataklysmkevin...Again you are making assumptions, every person has a different perception of who God is.

Guess what? Some people don't have any perception at all, because they don't believe "God" has a referent in reality.

kataklysmkevin...But He["God"] remains the same, Love is eternal.

Non-sequitur/fallacy of bare assertion. 'Look it up.

kataklysmkevin....I also believe the concept of fundementalist creationism is silly. But that doesn't discredit the creation itself...

So, the way fundamentalists posit that we came into existence is "silly", but that doesn't discredit what exists. Irrelevant conclusion. Existence exists; that is established.

kataklysmkevin..... Science for me complies with God's creation..

Everything that exists has an identity, which complies with the Law of Identity. You have not shown that what exists was created by a "God", thus, you are merely offering your unfounded opinion on the matter.

kataklysmkevin.....everything in the universe is an elaborate system of life.

And once more, this is irrelevant to your premise...i.e that everything "elaborate" is therefore the result of a "Creator". 'Too many "loose ends".

From the original article..."See, I was not entirely comfortable with the fact that these perfectly nice people would roast while I’d be dancing it up with Jesus without a care in the world as if it wasn’t happening right below my feet."

kataklysmkevin responds...It doesn't make sense does it?

No. So, should we interpret it at its face-value, and regard it as nonsensical?? Or should we experiment, and keep hypothesizing over and over and over, until it makes "sense"? In other words, should we rationalize it?

kataklysmkevin...Nobody knows whether you go to hell or heaven..

No, we don't know---not in an absolute sense. However, if "hell" exists, then we know, absolutely, that biblegod is not omnipresent, nor omnibenevolent, nor omniscient, nor omnipotent. If you'd like to me to elaborate, I will.

kataklysmkevin......it is between you and God.

What "God"?

kataklysmkevin...Don't assume that people are going to hell and you will find it's much easier to live your life.

I don't believe in "hell", so it would be silly for me to assume any such thing.

kataklysmkevin...You don't know someone else's fate, simple as that.

You don't know your worldview has a referent in reality, simple as that.

kataklysmkevin...If you choose to confine your definition of God that is the Old Testament and not conclude[include?] the New Testament that is ignorance on your part. There are also countless stories of God's love and mercy as well.

As one poster pointed out, heinous crimes such as dashing children against rocks, and slaughtering entire ethnic groups, don't have a statute of limitation. This, of course, is assuming such a being actually exists, for sake of argument.

From the original article..."Unless, of course the definition of a Christian is something I’m confused about. (What IS the blunt straightforward definition?)"

kataklysmkevin responds...Exalting God above your self ego

Please note that Muslims and Hindus "exalt God" above their own egos. Obviously, they aren't "Christians". You should probably revist your definition of "Christian", and get back to us.

kataklysmkevin...Fearing God is the beginning of knowledge. It's in psalms. You fear God so that you may have no fear of anything else, whether it be death, rejection, or hopelessness. Fearing only God and his righteous judgement dramatically changes our actions into good works.

Honestly, what is the point in having to be driven by "fear" to do "good works"? Good grief!

From the original article..."But would I respect him["God"]? That would have to be a no."

kataklysmkevin responds...He that gives us life out of the darkness?

But who or what "created" darkness?

kataklysmkevin continues...He that loves us more than we can love ourselves?

Speak for yourself.

kataklysmkevin continues...He that has shown his mercy in all our lives over and over again?

Tell that to the parent who's buried their own child.

kataklysmkevin...If that doesn't deserve respect, I don't know what does.

I wouldn't respect any such being even if it existed, much less, want to spend an eternity with it.

From the original article..."Would you respect such a person? I somehow doubt it. Would anyone with any amount of sanity do so?"

kataklysmkevin responds...[You're] loading your question with logical fallacies that aren't God.

Logical fallacies? Lol. Please. The poster is simply making an analogy to illustrate a point. Many times this is necessary when reasoning, alone, will not budge an opponent.

kataklysmkevin...God is not a person, it's God.

Now that is a logical fallacy....specifically, existential fallacy. Look it up. Hint: Cap'n Crunch will make you walk the plank if he catches you eating Fruit Loops!

kataklysmkevin...Your analogy is somewhat dry, and doesn't represent the true nature of God.

Yes, yes... you know the "True nature of God", and those who disagree with you, do not. How convenient.

boomSLANG said...

Note..

Dear kataklysmkevin,

If you should continue to give point-by-point rebuttals, I ask that you please use proper quotation/referencing, including the person's name to whom you are addressing/quoting. It makes debating much easier. Thanks.

Franciscan Monkey said...

kataklysmkevin:

Those are just people with intentions of being evil in the first place.

And you know their intentions how? Were the accusers in the Salem Witch Trials intending on being evil? I daresay that they thought they were doing God's will. When Paul Hill killed Dr. Bayard Britton and abortion rights supporter Jim Barrett, I am pretty sure he thought he was doing God's will. Perhaps, though, he did have "intentions of being evil in the first place," and just used his religious stance on the issue of abortion as an excuse to kill people.

kataklysmkevin continued:

Personally, it turned me from evil deeds. Wanting to pursue good deeds, and helping others where I can. Such acts of selflessness never occured to me beforehand.

Well, I am sorry that such acts of selflessness never occurred to you beforehand. That's a sad commentary. If true, then perhaps your belief in God is good for you and has made you a better person. There are many people who don't need that crutch, however, and I suspect that you don't really, either. When I was still a very dedicated Christian, my wife worked for a woman who, along with her husband, were atheists. They were (and still are) the nicest and most selfless people I have ever personally met.

kataklysmkevin:

Pleasing God does not come in committing atrocities.

God seemed pleased when the Isrealites killed all their enemies, and displeased when they spared some of their enemies.

kataklysmkevin wrote, in reference to Abraham sacrificing Isaac:

He Feared God, so He did what he was told.

Exactly! That's the problem! He feared God, so he did what he was told, even though it was an evil, immoral, repugnant act. I, for one, would never sacrifice one of my daughters just because I thought God was telling me to do so. Would you?

kataklysmkevin:

How can God be evil, and good at the same time? He can't.

Precisely. There is no God.

kataklysmkevin said:

I can't account for things God has supposedly done in the past.

Sorry, but leaders need to be held accountable. Blindly following someone and excusing what they do is very dangerous. God is supposed to be your leader, right, kataklysmkevin? Make sure he is doing the right thing. If not, you shouldn't follow him.

kataklysmkevin wrote:

Now you have me to question, what is morality by your standards?"

Basically, if at all possible, don't harm others.

kataklysmkevin, in reference to Matthew 7:13-14, wrote:

It's as clear as day to me, it's not an easy path. But you added words of your own from your interpretation on what it means. I clearly do not see where He says the majority will be punished in hell. It says wide is the road that lead to destruction, doesn't say "hell". If you read it more deeply, it's inspiritation to get out of self-destructive lifestyles.

I think it's apparent that he is talking about eternal life, however, Matthew 22:14 is definitely talking about the "kingdom of heaven" when it has Jesus say, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

kataklysmkevin:

That all depends if you think the Bible is completely literal.

I have a question for you, then. Do you think that the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites as portrayed in the Bible was a literal event? Did the Israelites not kill all the inhabitants of Jericho except for Rahab? Did the Israelites not kill all the inhabitants of Ai? Or of Makkedah? Libnah? Lachish? Eglon? Hebron? Debir? Did God not command the Israelites to exterminate the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites? I, of course, don't believe these things actually happened, thankfully, but it seems to me that the Bible is trying to portray them as historical events. What's your take on it?

kataklysmkevin wrote:

He who creates all things, I believe has authority to destroy.

Yikes. By that logic, I guess it's OK for me to kill my children?

kataklysmkevin:

So you just hold a grudge against God for murders that you never witnessed?

No, there is no God to hold a grudge against. However, the God portrayed in the Bible is evil, yes.

kataklysmkevin continued:

Is it fair for you to judge God upon human standards of morality?

No, if there was a God I would hold him to higher standards. I would expect wild animals like hyenas or such to behave, well, like animals. God, in the OT particularly, behaved like an wild animal. Many humans in this day and age have much higher moral standards than God. God's standards are more in line with Bronze Age men: sexist, violent, racist, and superstitious. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, since God was made in the image of Bronze Age men.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

sconnor said...

Kataklysmkevin said about fearing god, Personally, it turned me from evil deeds.

Really? Before you realized you were being watched by an invisible deity in the sky and before he put the fear of god into your head; you would have robbed and murdered and you would have raped little children?

So do you agree that in the absence of god you would be a repulsive malcontent, doing what I mentioned above, revealing that you are an immoral person?

--S.

Tyler Dawn said...

hey there :)

Just kinda happened onto this and figured I'd answer your question as best I can, which probably isn't very well at all.

First of all, I'm sorry you have had to deal with all of the crap that religion shoves onto the "unsaved." You heathen you ;) (yes, I am a smart ass)

I follow Jesus, but I hate religion. Haven't darkened the door in 4 years. I used to try and convert people because I was scared not to, big guilt trip that religion lays on you. Religion is man made garbage, have to do this and that, have to be this and that. Well, I couldn't be this or that on the outside unless I was this or that on the inside so I never fit in well. I am the kind of person who doesn't hide my emotions, my pain, my questions or my general mood well so the whole church thing is NOT a good place for me.

I hated doing the whole convert thing because it wasn't real. I didn't really care about these people, they were just notches on my belt (and since I couldn't sell water to a dehydrated billionaire if my life depended on it). They weren't even real to me, it was just a religious performance. And I hated it with a passion.

But now, being free of the whole religious expectation thing, I can just be with anyone and everyone. I don't preach the gospel, all I try to do is just love the person in front of me. I can tell you that before God started changing me I never loved anyone. And religion never helped me love anyone it just plastered a fake smile on my face. And it is slow going, but now I can see people as people and not as potential converts. I know that God will get you when He wants you. He knows you, I don't, and so how can I even judge you? I know squat about your heart, all I can see are appearances and those are deceiving so I never trust them. My whole purpose in life is to love people in my own limited way, that's it. And I like it so it's not a bad gig.

As for the whole burn in hell thingie, I don't know what I believe on that. Much of the translations are from a very western viewpoint, so I dunno. Hell doesn't inspire me one way or the other. A book I recommend that deals with the whole hell thing is He Loves Me by Wayne Jacobsen. Former pastor who started having too many questions and got kicked out of his church.

Anyway, I couldn't read through somaslight. I just can't deal with that religious talk anymore, smells like death to me. He means well and is just doing what he has been taught, I'm sure, but it's not real. I can't make Jesus real to you, won't try. People did that to me for 29 years and I hated it. Maybe if they had had the freedom to just love me free from the "requirements" we could have really had a relationship. maybe if I hadn't felt like a disappointment to them (and try following Jesus without being at a clubhouse on sunday morning, I am a walking talking source of confusion and disappointment now, but it's cool. lol)

Anyway, I'd rather spend Sunday in a bar than in church, and I don't even drink, unless it's a cherry coke, a real one not that fake garbage. I just enjoy people. Jesus enjoyed people a lot. The religious people hated him for it.

Hey, now I am rambling rofl that's what I get for not sleeping :) I hate moving and the van is on it's way. Bye and nice meeting ya. If you live in Austin TX I'd love to meet you.

Tyler Dawn said...

Oh and this to Steven Bently, I have lots of problems with the Bible. First of all, most of the "NT" is made up of private letters that were never written as scripture and then people make up rules and laws based on them when we are supposed to be free of all that. Jesus came to fulfill the law so we could love and be free of it but people want religion so they made up a bunch of new laws based upon Paul's personal correspondence, when we are only hearing one side of the conversation. I have a big problem with that. But people do that because they are afraid of God because they have been taught to be. If they really paid attention to what Jesus said about Him, they wouldn't need the manmade rulebook to protect themselves from God. They think they can please Him by following an ornate set of rules, like He is so easily manipulated or something.

And there isn't one verse in the Bible that says that what is written there is authoratative. People say that.

kataklysmkevin said...

Sconnor says: Really? Before you realized you were being watched by an invisible deity in the sky and before he put the fear of god into your head; you would have robbed and murdered and you would have raped little children?

I am a sinner. Simply put, No human is above another. We all fall short of the glory of God. I have stolen, I have done a multitude of sins as do you.

So do you agree that in the absence of god you would be a repulsive malcontent, doing what I mentioned above, revealing that you are an immoral person?

We are all immoral people. We are all flawed. I don't understand what you are trying to get here.

--S.

kataklysmkevin said...

Franciscan Monkey said:

And you know their intentions how?

If you kill people and you know it says thou shall not kill, what other intention do you have?

Were the accusers in the Salem Witch Trials intending on being evil?

Thou shall not kill. If your not following the commandment you can't be following God.

I daresay that they thought they were doing God's will. When Paul Hill killed Dr. Bayard Britton and abortion rights supporter Jim Barrett, I am pretty sure he thought he was doing God's will.

Thou shall not kill. People want to justify their actions, just like you and me.

Perhaps, though, he did have "intentions of being evil in the first place," and just used his religious stance on the issue of abortion as an excuse to kill people.

For me, that's what it looks like.

Well, I am sorry that such acts of selflessness never occurred to you beforehand. That's a sad commentary.

I wasn't completely devoid of it, I just never went out of my way.

If true, then perhaps your belief in God is good for you and has made you a better person.

So if it made me a better person, I don't understand how God can be evil.

There are many people who don't need that crutch, however, and I suspect that you don't really, either. When I was still a very dedicated Christian, my wife worked for a woman who, along with her husband, were atheists. They were (and still are) the nicest and most selfless people I have ever personally met.

It doesn't matter who you are, there are good hearted people everywhere. I do not deny this.

Exactly! That's the problem! He feared God, so he did what he was told, even though it was an evil, immoral, repugnant act. I, for one, would never sacrifice one of my daughters just because I thought God was telling me to do so. Would you?

It's by the Lord's grace that He gave me a daughter and I fear God, so I think you know the answer to this one. But I don't believe God would make me kill my own son or daughter. He did not make Abraham do such things.

Precisely. There is no God.

You cannot say this with absolute certainty, unless of course you have absolute truth.

What's your take on it?

The bible is what it is. I get great knowledge from reading it; about myself, human nature, and it soothes my soul.

Do you think that the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites as portrayed in the Bible was a literal event?

I cannot say, I did not witness it.

Yikes. By that logic, I guess it's OK for me to kill my children?

Thou shall not kill. I said the creator of all things has authority.

I can't tell you there's a God, and you just start believing obviously. It is a personal path to reach, but if you really wish to find God you have to search with all your heart and soul.

I think if we meet at Love, we can work it out in the end. Because in the end that's what I am all about, being the change I want in this world and doing what I can on the way to help.

Franciscan Monkey said...

I originally wrote:

Were the accusers in the Salem Witch Trials intending on being evil?

To which kataklysmkevin responded:

Thou shall not kill. If your not following the commandment you can't be following God.

Your answer could just as well have been, "Exodus 22:18 says, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' If you are not following the commandment you are not following God."

What parts of the Bible do you discard, kataklysmkevin? And how do you know that you are discarding the right parts?

I will respond to more of your post when I get back to my computer in a few hours.

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

webmdave said...

kataklysmkevin said, "I am a sinner. [...] I have done a multitude of sins as do you."

This is one of the central themes in Christianity that makes me want to throw up in my mouth: "I am a sinner, AND SO ARE YOU!"

It's OK to denigrate yourself. It's OK to change your lifestyle and attempt to become a person who is humble, self-effacing, meek, submissive, modest, etc. That’s entirely OK. But it is not OK to project your values and life choices on others and then expect others to follow you! When you do that, you become the opposite of what you think you are trying to become.

To continue, “I am a sinner, AND SO ARE YOU!” is not indicative of a lowly attitude. Rather, that comment suggests proud arrogance along the lines of, “I had a screwed up life and I have found a way to straighten out my life. Therefore, you need to be just like me.”

You are like the recovered alcoholic who thinks all people who ever have a beer are alcoholics. Or better yet, you are like a reformed obese person who thinks anyone who enjoys ice cream and potato chips is obese.

Christians today don’t get it. The Jesus character was preaching a personal, compassionate piety. He wasn’t preaching with finger-pointing condemnation against anyone but the devotedly self-righteous. You kat, are self-righteous. It makes no difference if you say “But I am a sinner too!” You are pointing your finger, calling everyone bad, and then implying self-congratulation by suggesting that you, the great and wonderful kat, has single-handedly found the answer to the world’s woes. Not content with waving that flag, you have to insist and aggressively bang a drum, proclaiming YOUR TRUTH and dogmatically asserting that ALL MEN should bow to your message.

Don’t say it’s not your message. It is your message. Jesus never suggested once that his minions should hammer away HIS message on others. So, you are preaching your own gospel. By your own words you are preaching "WHAT YOU WANT."

kataklysmkevin said...

boomslang said:

This makes the rather pompous assumption that those who have examined Christianity and found it lacking in any way, and/or, not true, are people who have not found "Truth", and therefore, they are people who are not "seeking Truth". Again, pompous, arrogant, self-righteous...these are just some of the adjectives that immediately come to mind.

I wished not to sound such a way. I did not say The Truth, I simply said seeking Truth. I can't say anything is absolute, because I have not been given absolute knowledge.

In an absolute sense, true, no adult can "make" another adult believe something. But in an indirect sense, you can make someone believe something using such tactics as manipulation and coersion.

A choice made from fear is not a sincere choice though. Only anger stems from fear. I have not come to my choices from fear, but from a sincere desire to change my ways.

The concept of threatening "Hell" for noncompliance, is no different.

Only you can make a choice on where you go. Hell is very "heated" debate amongst many christian sects. Personally, I believe we make the choice.

Guess what? Some people don't have any perception at all, because they don't believe "God" has a referent in reality.

I understand this. But I know that one cannot with absolute certainty say there is no God.

Existence exists; that is established.

Agreed. And I believe existence came from a creator. Life cannot form from non-life.

You have not shown that what exists was created by a "God", thus, you are merely offering your unfounded opinion on the matter.

If the bible is an unfounded opinion, then I guess that's all it will be to you. I cannot change the way you see things.

In other words, should we rationalize it?

It is what it is. All I can do is be the best person I can be and not dwelling on the subject of Hell. I do not know who goes where.

kataklysmkevin...But He["God"] remains the same, Love is eternal.


Non-sequitur/fallacy of bare assertion. 'Look it up

Don't you know? Haven't you heard? The LORD is the eternal God, Creator of the earth. He never gets weary or tired; His wisdom cannot be measured. (Isaiah 40:28) Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. John 4:8 - I think this explains my reasoning why God does not change, and that he is Love.

No, we don't know---not in an absolute sense.

I agree to these terms.

Please note that Muslims and Hindus "exalt God" above their own egos. Obviously, they aren't "Christians". You should probably revist your definition of "Christian", and get back to us.

I know there are spiritual people everywhere, and they exalt God. He simply asked for a definition of a christian, and I did so. Notice he did not ask for definitions of hindus or muslims.

Honestly, what is the point in having to be driven by "fear" to do "good works"? Good grief!

I am not driven by fear. I am driven by a sincere choice to do good unto others.

But who or what "created" darkness?

I believe it's the absence of God. Can good exist without evil?

Tell that to the parent who's buried their own child.

We are all mortal, we all die. Death is a part of life.

Now that is a logical fallacy....specifically, existential fallacy. Look it up.

I claim God is not a man, he is God. Here is my verse to back my "fallacy":

God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change His mind. God always keeps His promises. (Numbers 23:19)


Yes, yes... you know the "True nature of God", and those who disagree with you, do not. How convenient.

I am not some absolutist. I do not claim to know everything about God, but there is a true nature about Him. And you can find it within yourself.

I am not a close-minded fool, for I was once questioning the world as you do. I am here to try to bridge the gap between us. God wants you to pursue knowledge, instruction and wisdom. Most of the time though, we don't want to face change if it doesn't correlate with our lifestyles. We usually take easy paths with little resistance.

kataklysmkevin said...

Don’t say it’s not your message. It is your message. Jesus never suggested once that his minions should hammer away HIS message on others. So, you are preaching your own gospel. By your own words you are preaching "WHAT YOU WANT."

Ok so whatever you say my message is, your right. Is this correct?

I hope not to be hammering a certain message. I am just sharing my views.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I am not assuming that someone is a bad person, but that we all sin and should come to repentance.

Tyler Dawn said...

My friend Kim actually read all the way through and pointed this to me from webmdave as being enormously spot on and she was right. (She may come by later but was just in a car wreck a few weeks back and is hurting, and I linked you to my blog so you can hear some more from people who despise religion but love Jesus)

"Christians today don’t get it. The Jesus character was preaching a personal, compassionate piety. He wasn’t preaching with finger-pointing condemnation against anyone but the devotedly self-righteous."

This is why so many who desperately love Jesus and desire to live by His (and not the church's) teachings have left the church system. Jesus never, ever is recorded as ever having rebuked anyone who was hurting or humble. I guess that means he rebukes me because I am a prideful little whelp. :D

And Jesus never said to go to church either.....

Jesus was all about teaching people about the real loving, passionately patient and caring God they had lost in the midst of religiosity. I know this God as the One who pulled me out of all the destructive things I was doing to hurt other people. He did it because He loves me AND He loves everyone I was hurting. But the religious never see it because they want the old angry god back, the one who loves what they love and who hates what they hate, but that is just self-worship.

Tyler Dawn said...

oops let me change that, I made a link on my blog to your blog so my readers could come here. You ask the same questions that drove us out of church, we just ended up in a slightly different destination :)

webmdave said...

Kat wrote, "I understand this. But I know that one cannot with absolute certainty say there is no God."

What you probably actually mean is that you cannot say with certainty that YOUR god doesn't exist. I'm guessing here, but I'd bet that you have no problem quickly dismissing the assertions of every other person throughout history who promoted belief in some other god.

Kat further ruminated, "I believe existence came from a creator. Life cannot form from non-life."

Is your god alive? If so, who or what is her creator? Surely such a complex lifeform as the one you worship doesn't just EXIST, does she? We all know that life just can't EXIST! It has to be created!

No exceptions, now. If you have exceptions in your dogma, it will all break down.

The real answer here about the existence of any gods or how life began is "I don't know." You don't know and neither do I. You have a belief or two, but you don't know. And, your belief tells you nothing about HOW life was formed or HOW your god happens to exist. Your answers of "God and She did it!" are non-answers which reveal nothing. It's worse than admitting you don't know something. It's saying that the answers to these questions are unatainable, hidden in the unserachable mystery of a god.

"God did it! Class dismissed!"

Kat rambled, "Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Well, how about that! Even Jesus admits that not all are sinners. He didn't come to call the righteous! That means there are righteous, right?

"I am not assuming that someone is a bad person, but that we all sin and should come to repentance. "

WHA? You are ASSuming that YOU have THE TRUTH and that YOU are to be followed, believed and OBEYED.

As far as the message here: It's our soapbox. It's our place. We aren't coming to you, you came to us. You are the one banging a drum. No one is required to come to this blog. But since this is our blog, we are now subjected to your sanctimonious blather.

Get it? If I came to your house to preach atheism, you would probably find that a bit offensive. This is our virtual house.

You assume entirely too much. It may be, Kat, that you have been cruely decieved by your relgion. That is at least one possiblity to consider. Just because it makes you feel good doesn't mean that it is good, right, or true.

boomSLANG said...

Let's see, kataklysmkevin previously stated...There are various reasons[that some Christians seek to convert people], but the main[reason] is so that you may seek Truth.

To which I previously responded..."This makes the rather pompous assumption that those who have examined Christianity and found it lacking in any way, and/or, not true, are people who have not found 'Truth', and therefore, they are people who are not 'seeking Truth'. Again, pompous, arrogant, self-righteous...these are just some of the adjectives that immediately come to mind."

Kataklysmkevin's latest response, is...I wished not to sound such a way. I did not say The Truth, I simply said seeking Truth.

REPEAT: In regards to why "some" Christians seek to convert, you originally said, "..so that you may seek Truth", and again, the implicit, if not explicit implication, is clear:

You, and other Christians, assume that because people have examined Christianity and found it false, that these people HAVE NOT already sought "Truth".

Now, I seriously don't know of another way to get my point to penetrate your, evidently, very dense cranium.

Kataklysmkevin continues...I can't say anything is absolute, because I have not been given absolute knowledge.

FYI, the Christian bible claims a monopoly on the absolute, unchanging, Universal "Truth".

Previously, I said..."In an absolute sense, true, no adult can 'make' another adult believe something. But in an indirect sense, you can make someone believe something using such tactics as manipulation and coersion."

Kataklysmkevin's latest response, is...A choice made from fear is not a sincere choice though.

Precisely.

Kataklysmkevin continues...Only anger stems from fear.

That is false. Anger is a symptom of fear; yes. But many things happen as the result of fear, including manipulation and coersion.

Kataklysmkevin continues...I have not come to my choices from fear, but from a sincere desire to change my ways.

If you insist your choosing to lead a better life wasn't fear motivated, then marvelous, but that has nothing to do with you calling "heaven and hell" a free "choice". Please refer to my mugger analogy, if you must.

Previously, I said..."Some people don't have any perception[of 'God'] at all, because they don't believe 'God' has a referent in reality."

Kataklysmkevin's latest response, is...I understand this. But I know that one cannot with absolute certainty say there is no God.

Is this an admission that "Oden" might exist, then? How about Mithra? Amon Ra? If you can say, with absolute certainty, that those "gods" - deities, who incidently, were once extolled as real beings - are figments of people's imaginations, then I can say with the same certainty that "Yahweh", his alleged son, and their ghost twice removed, are figments of your imagination. In other words, you create a blantant double-standard when you attempt such "logic".

Previously, I said..."Existence exists; that is established."

Kataklysmkevin responds...Agreed. And I believe existence came from a creator. Life cannot form from non-life.

Let me ask you a question: Is the biblical creator-god, "Yahweh" alive? If so, then by your reasoning, "He" was "created". Who then, created "God"? 'Listening.

Kataklysmkevin said...All I can do is be the best person I can be and not dwelling on the subject of Hell. I do not know who goes where.

More honestly stated, you "do not know" that anyone goes any-"where". There is not one scrap of objective evidence that supports a post-mortem "life".

In response to suggesting that KK look up non-sequitur/fallacy of bare assertion, he said...

Don't you know? Haven't you heard? The LORD is the eternal God, Creator of the earth. He never gets weary or tired; His wisdom cannot be measured. (Isaiah 40:28) Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. John 4:8 - I think this explains my reasoning why God does not change, and that he is Love.

Don't you know? Haven't you heard? Lucky the Leprechaun wants you to boycott all other breakfast cereals except Lucky Charms!

Does that sound silly to you, KK? Well, whether it did, or didn't, your biblical passages sound silly to me.

Previously, when kataklysmkevin was asked to define "Christian", he provided the following...Exalting God above your self ego.

To which I responded...

"Please note that Muslims and Hindus 'exalt God' above their own egos. Obviously, they aren't 'Christians'. You should probably revist your definition of 'Christian', and get back to us."

Kataklysmkevin's latest response, is...I know there are spiritual people everywhere, and they exalt God. He simply asked for a definition of a christian, and I did so. Notice he did not ask for definitions of hindus or muslims.

Dear kataklysmkevin,

I can only conclude that you are either intentionally circumventing the point I was trying to make, or you are simply not very bright of an individual.

In any event, the point is/was, that other "spiritual people" also "exalt God above their ego(s)", and thus, that is not unique to Christianity. In other words, I believe the inquiry was to gain some insight as to what separates "Christians" from other religionists. If that was the case, then your "definition" was vague, broad, and over-all, inconcise. 'Shocker.

Kataklysmkevin said...I am not driven by fear. I am driven by a sincere choice to do good unto others.

Outstanding! Of course, one needn't "seek" any external or metaphysical "Truths" to follow that example.

I asked..."But who or what 'created' darkness?

Kataklysmkevin responds...I believe it's the absence of God. Can good exist without evil?

Yes, yes,..of course! We are fully aware of this pop' apologetic, in fact, we are shredding the argument to infinity in another thread. Perhaps you'd like to pop over and offer your thoughts?

Regarding "God's mercy", I said...."Tell that to the parent who's buried their own child.

Kataklysmkevin responds..We are all mortal, we all die. Death is a part of life.

Once again, the point evidently parts your hair down the middle. Okay, while what you say is true, the point is, not "all" of us bury our own children. Where is the "mercy" in a young child suffering a gruesome, horrendous death due to illness? 'Listening.

Kataklysmkevin says...I claim God is not a man, he is God. Here is my verse to back my "fallacy":

"God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change His mind. God always keeps His promises. (Numbers 23:19)

Not to be picky, but the provided verse, even if it had a referent in realty, does not say that "God" isn't human at all; it says that he is more than "mere" human.

Notwithstanding, you know the bible is true, because...?...?...?...?

Kataklysmkevin goes on....I am not some absolutist. I do not claim to know everything about God, but there is a true nature about Him. And you can find it within yourself.

I am not a close-minded fool, for I was once questioning the world as you do. I am here to try to bridge the gap between us. God wants you to pursue knowledge, instruction and wisdom. Most of the time though, we don't want to face change if it doesn't correlate with our lifestyles. We usually take easy paths with little resistance.


You not only don't know "everything about God", you evidently don't even know what you *think* you know. The bible admonishes us to not seek wisdom, that the "wisdom of man is foolishness". Learn your bible; learn what logical fallacies are, and then come back and see us, 'kay?

kataklysmkevin said...

webmdave wrote:

What you probably actually mean is that you cannot say with certainty that YOUR god doesn't exist. I'm guessing here, but I'd bet that you have no problem quickly dismissing the assertions of every other person throughout history who promoted belief in some other god.

No, I simply said what I said. I don't quickly dismiss assertions of others, because everyone has their own path.

Is your god alive? If so, who or what is her creator? Surely such a complex lifeform as the one you worship doesn't just EXIST, does she? We all know that life just can't EXIST! It has to be created!

Alpha and Omega means God is eternal. Eternal can't be created.

No exceptions, now. If you have exceptions in your dogma, it will all break down.

The real answer here about the existence of any gods or how life began is "I don't know." You don't know and neither do I. You have a belief or two, but you don't know.

And, your belief tells you nothing about HOW life was formed or HOW your god happens to exist. Your answers of "God and She did it!" are non-answers which reveal nothing. It's worse than admitting you don't know something. It's saying that the answers to these questions are unatainable, hidden in the unserachable mystery of a god.

Non-answers if you don't believe in God.

"God did it! Class dismissed!"

And what is your explanation?

Well, how about that! Even Jesus admits that not all are sinners. He didn't come to call the righteous! That means there are righteous, right?

Of course there are. Righteous doesn't mean perfect though. To me it means a person who has changed their ways to follow God.

"I am not assuming that someone is a bad person, but that we all sin and should come to repentance. "

WHA? You are ASSuming that YOU have THE TRUTH and that YOU are to be followed, believed and OBEYED.

Where did I say that I have The Truth? Where did I say to obey me? I said we should come to repentance because we all sin. I would not ask of such things for me to be followed, believed, or obeyed. Those things are for the hypocrites.

As far as the message here: It's our soapbox. It's our place. We aren't coming to you, you came to us. You are the one banging a drum. No one is required to come to this blog. But since this is our blog, we are now subjected to your sanctimonious blather.

You can't learn about other perspectives if all you talk is with people who agree with you. If I am that much of a threat or burden to your disbelief system, then that shows only your insecurity. But I am not going to make that assumption about you.

Get it? If I came to your house to preach atheism, you would probably find that a bit offensive. This is our virtual house.

I would not be offended. I debate much with any whom seek to have an intelligent discussion. You can't really preach atheism anyway, because it's simply disbelief in God(s).

You assume entirely too much. It may be, Kat, that you have been cruely decieved by your relgion. That is at least one possiblity to consider. Just because it makes you feel good doesn't mean that it is good, right, or true.

Accepting people for who they are, forgiving people for doing awful things to me, loving people I normally hate, trying not to judge people, and living my life to do good unto others isn't good, right, or true?

sconnor said...

Kkevin said, We are all immoral people. We are all flawed. I don't understand what you are trying to get here.

Answer the question. If god did not exist, would you be immoral, would you rape little children, would you murder people and would you start robbing banks?

I await your excuses and non-answers...I mean answers.

--S.

lewis said...

Tyler-
I know this God as the One who pulled me out of all the destructive things I was doing to hurt other people. He did it because He loves me AND He loves everyone I was hurting.

Please dont use the word "know" unless you qualify it with "I think I" in front of it. If you "knew" any god, People may expect you to actually demonstrate your reason for "knowing".

I believe you think you know, it's just that resonable folks may say the same thing about the holy spaghetti monster, and you (among others) would find that a little odd. You would rightly want to know how they know other than a vauge "feeling", "belief", or "conviction".

Not going to a "church" dosent change the "belief" just the location. Kind of like being a mormon in India.

:-)

lewis said...

Tyler-
I know this God as the One who pulled me out of all the destructive things I was doing to hurt other people. He did it because He loves me AND He loves everyone I was hurting.

Please dont use the word "know" unless you qualify it with "I think I" in front of it. If you "knew" any god, People may expect you to actually demonstrate your reason for "knowing".

I believe you think you know, it's just that resonable folks may say the same thing about the holy spaghetti monster, and you (among others) would find that a little odd. You would rightly want to know how they know other than a vauge "feeling", "belief", or "conviction".

Not going to a "church" dosent change the "belief" just the location. Kind of like being a mormon in India.

:-)

webmdave said...

Kat resonded, "No, I simply said what I said. I don't quickly dismiss assertions of others, because everyone has their own path."

Really? So you are willing to acknoweldge the existence of Allah? You are willing to suggest that maybe Allah is the one true god?

Really?

Kat yammered, "Eternal can't be created."

Like I said, Kat, no exceptions. IS YOUR GOD ALIVE OR NOT? If there is even one single life form out there that is self-existent, then you are opening Pandora's Box. Besides, Allah is not the Alpha and Omega, but he just may be the one true God. Your Yahweh might be a poser.

Kat puked out, "And what is your explanation?"

My answer is "I DON'T KNOW!" Didn't you bother reading my comment. I don't know is the ONLY answer. Just because you don't LIKE that answer, it's still the only real answer. Primitive people don't like "I DON'T KNOW" so they make up gods to fill the gaps in their knoweldge. God throws thunderbolts. God sends plague. God sends rain. God does this and god does that. God, god, god, god, god. Now we know that tornadoes, earthquakes and all manner of natural forces have nothing to do with some deity potting about. We are, however, still ignorant on many things, and it is in those gaps of ignorance where your god finds a home.

Kat, you SHOULD really do some honest inquiry into viewpoints that are critical of Christianity. It is obvious that you are incapable of thinking beyond a certain point or from any other perspective than that of a mind-numbed religio-bot. If you cannot see how offensive and stubborn and self-righteous your verbiage comes across, then you are either extremely stupid or a bold-faced liar. Either way you're loosing your entertainment value.

I'll tell you what. I've read the Bible cover to cover dozens of times. I've studied various systematic theologies and devotedly been a Christian for 30 years. I know your side of the story. List one single book you've written that is critical of Christianity and we'll continue.

If you can't even list one single volume that you've honestly read, then this discussion has become dull. This isn't debate, it's you preaching.

Let me rephrase my senario up above. If I barged into your house UNINVITED and blashpemed your god and your religion unceasingly, I'm sure that at the very least I would eventually wear out my welcome.

Guess what -- you're there.

webmdave said...

Oh, and to your last ridiculous rant, I would like you to understand that Christianity does not have the corner market on good behavior.

It is the supreme arrogance to even suggest that things like accepting people for who they are, forgiving people for doing awful things to me, loving people I normally hate, trying not to judge people, and living my life to do good unto others are singularly Christian qualities. These are HUMAN qualities that we all possess. There is nothing unique or original about being nice to each other!

Sheesh!

Seriously, if you stopped believing in your god, do you honestly believe you would immeditaely become a nasty, thieving, murderous, peice of shit?

Don't answer, I'm sick of wasting my time with you.

boomSLANG said...

Kataklysmkevin enlightens...Alpha and Omega means God is eternal. Eternal can't be created.

Not unshockingly, incorrect. "Alpha/Omega" is the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet, respectively. Sometimes it means "beginning/end".

Okay, firstly, "eternal" does NOT have an end("omega"). Duh? And secondly, if "God" has a beginning("Alpha"), then who or what initiated that "beginning"? I believe that was the original question, yes?

kataklysmkevin said...

Well didn't mean to upset you here bud, don't mean to get your panties in a bundle. You chose to respond :) I am just a religious fanatic with no brain of my own remember?

I hope the best in your future endeavors. Peace be with you

Tyler Dawn said...

Lewis thanks for acknowledging my existance, I was worried that I would be ignored forever. lol

Lewis, I can know. You may not like the term, but it your opinion that I cannot, and only your opinion. I can't prove to you that I am 38, white, married and the mother of two but I am. Any documents I present could be forged and witnesses I present could be lies, but the truth of who and what I am would remain.

It is your opinion that I can't know and I respect that, but for you to dictate my use of language when this post was presented by the OP as a real question to Christians seems a bit too religious to me. I won't begrudge your use of terms, regardless of my opinions, knowledge or whatever.

I am not here to fight or to argue and I won't. Heather asked some questions, some really great ones, and I thought she had the right to some answers from someone with a bit of a different perspective. If you guys don't really want the answers that's okay but she posted and I was answering her.

And if you think that location is the only difference between me and anyone else, well that is your opinion too. To be honest, sometimes it feels like I do live in India when I am talking to others.

And Webmdave, I thought posting a question to Christians (which is what Heather said she was doing and I have no reason to doubt her sincerity)was an invitation. No one barged in here, if there was no valid invitation given and if she didn't really mean it then it would be nice if she would say so. I took her to be honest in her inquiry since I have no reason to do otherwise.

kataklysmkevin said...

Okay, firstly, "eternal" does NOT have an end("omega"). Duh? And secondly, if "God" has a beginning("Alpha"), then who or what initiated that "beginning"? I believe that was the original question, yes?

Nothing I say to you will deter you from your belief. If God is beginning and end, then in between is eternal. That's just a dichotomy I have come to, you don't have to believe it.

kataklysmkevin said...

sconnor said:Answer the question. If god did not exist, would you be immoral, would you rape little children, would you murder people and would you start robbing banks?

I said previously no, I don't have these tendencies.

kataklysmkevin said...

boomslang said:

You, and other Christians, assume that because people have examined Christianity and found it false, that these people HAVE NOT already sought "Truth".

I do not assume anything about anybody. It's not my place to judge.


Now, I seriously don't know of another way to get my point to penetrate your, evidently, very dense cranium.

Thanks for your insult.

FYI, the Christian bible claims a monopoly on the absolute, unchanging, Universal "Truth".

The bible claims, I don’t claim.

That is false. Anger is a symptom of fear; yes. But many things happen as the result of fear, including manipulation and coersion.

True.

If you insist your choosing to lead a better life wasn't fear motivated, then marvelous, but that has nothing to do with you calling "heaven and hell" a free "choice". Please refer to my mugger analogy, if you must.

You choose to repent, or you choose to indulge in sin. That’s a choice to me.

Is this an admission that "Oden" might exist, then? How about Mithra? Amon Ra? If you can say, with absolute certainty, that those "gods" - deities, who incidently, were once extolled as real beings - are figments of people's imaginations, then I can say with the same certainty that "Yahweh", his alleged son, and their ghost twice removed, are figments of your imagination. In other words, you create a blantant double-standard when you attempt such "logic".

If Oden or Mithra changed my life in the way Christ has, it would make sense to follow…but they didn’t. Only God has done such things within me.

Let me ask you a question: Is the biblical creator-god, "Yahweh" alive? If so, then by your reasoning, "He" was "created". Who then, created "God"?

I don’t have all the answers brother. You will never find someone who can answer it. It says he is Alpha and Omega, eternal.

More honestly stated, you "do not know" that anyone goes any-"where". There is not one scrap of objective evidence that supports a post-mortem "life".

True, it’s faith.

Does that sound silly to you, KK? Well, whether it did, or didn't, your biblical passages sound silly to me.
That’s your choice to denote the passages. I simply gave them to show my point.

Previously, when kataklysmkevin was asked to define "Christian", he provided the following...Exalting God above your self ego.

Dear kataklysmkevin,

I can only conclude that you are either intentionally circumventing the point I was trying to make, or you are simply not very bright of an individual.

In any event, the point is/was, that other "spiritual people" also "exalt God above their ego(s)", and thus, that is not unique to Christianity. In other words, I believe the inquiry was to gain some insight as to what separates "Christians" from other religionists. If that was the case, then your "definition" was vague, broad, and over-all, inconcise. 'Shocker.

True, it isn’t unique to Christianity. The reason it’s broad is because there are no absolutes that can be said.

Yes, yes,..of course! We are fully aware of this pop' apologetic, in fact, we are shredding the argument to infinity in another thread. Perhaps you'd like to pop over and offer your thoughts?

Ok, point taken.

Once again, the point evidently parts your hair down the middle. Okay, while what you say is true, the point is, not "all" of us bury our own children. Where is the "mercy" in a young child suffering a gruesome, horrendous death due to illness? 'Listening.

So because people suffer proves that God doesn’t exist and isn’t merciful, correct?

Notwithstanding, you know the bible is true, because...?...?...?...?

There is truth within the bible, I can’t claim if it itself is true.

You not only don't know "everything about God", you evidently don't even know what you *think* you know. The bible admonishes us to not seek wisdom, that the "wisdom of man is foolishness". Learn your bible; learn what logical fallacies are, and then come back and see us, 'kay?

He wants us to seek godly wisdom, not wisdom of man. Proverbs 8:10 Receive my instruction in preference to [striving for] silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold,
For skillful and godly Wisdom is better than rubies or pearls, and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I know I will never “win” your debate. I just hope that you realize that not all “religious” people are here to try to manipulate and destroy the world. We are sincere people with faith trying to live our lives according to it and to love. You have great intelligence, and your questioning will only solidify whatever beliefs you have. Stay steadfast with your quest, hope all goes well.

webmdave said...

Now here's the fucking pot calling the kettle black!

"Nothing I say to you will deter you from your belief."

Exactly. You Kitty-boy, have never challenged your presuppositional position. You have never really examined your religious delusion from a critical perspective! You have filled your head with Christian-speak but have never considered the possiblity that you have been decieved. Muslims believe with a vengence and are absolutely sure they are correct in their positions. You are, as you admitted, a brain-dead automaton, and you have as much on the ball as a fanatical Muslim.

No brain, no gain.

Tyler, what exactly was the question Heather asked? Has ANYTHING that this kat-fantatic posted had ANYTHING to do with the question?

No. All this moron is doing is preaching and filling a personal agenda. Worse, he is too retarded and stubborn to just admit he is preaching. No, he is not preaching, he is "sharing" or some such bullshit.

webmdave said...

Oh, and since kitty-kat wants to quote from the book of Proverbs as if it has any authoritative weight, here's my favorite from that book: "Seldom set foot in your neighbor's house— too much of you, and he will hate you.-- Proverbs 25:17

webmdave said...

Arrgh, the more I read the more infuriating it becomes, Kat meowed, "You choose to repent, or you choose to indulge in sin. That’s a choice to me."

Black/White -- Up/Down -- Heaven/Hell -- Perversion/Christian.

That is sooo stupid! What you are saying is "Believe in Jesus, or go to hell!" And then you say things like "But I'm not saying go to hell, the BIG BOOK of BULL is saying it. I'm just repeating it ad-nauseum with a superior aire of sanctimoniousness."

Bleah! Christianity is sickening.

Just because I think your religion is mythology, you view me as someone who wants to indulge in sin? I thought you don't judge anyone? You are so dead to your own callousness that you actually think judging people is NOT judging people.

Pathetic.

Tyler Dawn said...

Dave, I have no idea if he/she whatever has answered the questions. I am not going to wade through it all because it has just turned plain nasty and it seems like a lot of baiting is going on. If I wanted to read insults and stuff I'd go to Fred Phelps site.

I am reading a lot of talk about how we should word things and how we should believe and phrase things. Dude this isn't meant as a slam but that's one of the many reasons I left church and never went back. I am tired of being told what to think and how to talk, and as a result my beliefs are very different from most Christians. I can't even remember why I ever believed half the stuff I was taught -- when I was an atheist or a Christ-follower. I guess as I get older I am boiling it all down to what I can know experientially and what is proven to be false and those things I am still clueless about.

Jesus is about love, he preached it and lived it, and I look around at a lot of non-Christians who have an excellent handle on it. Look at Angelina Jolie and tell me she doesn't have the heart of Jesus for kids. That woman has love pouring through her veins for the kids of the world. There are a lot of nonChristians out there who are incredibly loving people, more so than many Christians. My cousin Dixon and his partner are two of the most profoundly loving people I have ever met, and I trust them with my children's lives, and we have awesome discussions about everything, including God because they are both so incredibly intelligent.

Christianity can't make anyone better on the inside. But then Christianity is a religion, which is why I rarely use the term. Jesus was a jew anyway, right? lol

Anyway, now I have roamed off topic (sorry)I came here hoping for a cool discussion and I have been pretty bummed out because no one is really discussing anything, it's like everyone has these scripts and are talking around and over and through each other but not with each other. Guess it's my just desserts because I used to throw the same arguments at people as I am seeing on both sides. Sorry if I am off in my perception. I try not to be judgmental but dang if only I hadn't been born a human....

So if anyone wants to talk, I'd love to. Discussion is great, although this truly is the worst medium in the world for it. Too anonymous. You can't see the look on someone's face to know whther they are frowning or smiling, serious or joking and we are left assuming and that sucks.

Okay, back to packing up boxes. I hate moving, but I hate living in this town even worse....

kataklysmkevin said...

webmdave says: Exactly. You Kitty-boy, have never challenged your presuppositional position. You have never really examined your religious delusion from a critical perspective!

You have filled your head with Christian-speak but have never considered the possiblity that you have been decieved. Muslims believe with a vengence and are absolutely sure they are correct in their positions. You are, as you admitted, a brain-dead automaton, and you have as much on the ball as a fanatical Muslim.

No brain, no gain.

Tyler, what exactly was the question Heather asked? Has ANYTHING that this kat-fantatic posted had ANYTHING to do with the question?

No. All this moron is doing is preaching and filling a personal agenda. Worse, he is too retarded and stubborn to just admit he is preaching. No, he is not preaching, he is "sharing" or some such bullshit.

I was atheist for 21 years, so don't assume such things. :) I hope nothing but the best for you webmdave, you have great passion for your beliefs. But am I really worth your anger?

kataklysmkevin said...

webmdave: Just because I think your religion is mythology, you view me as someone who wants to indulge in sin? I thought you don't judge anyone?

I don't view you as anything more or less than what I am, human. I don't assume anything about your character. I am not judging anyone besides myself.

boomSLANG said...

Kataklysmkevin, to webmdave... You chose to respond :)

The same way any normal, inquisitive person would respond to someone attempting to peddle their subjective blatherings as "Universal Truth", with not one drop of evidence to support it = )

Kataklysmkevin continues...I am just a religious fanatic with no brain of my own remember?

'Very well could be. It would certainly coincide with your previous answers, as well as your most recent answers, which I intend to refute right now...

Kataklysmkevin said...I do not assume anything about anybody. It's not my place to judge.

This is equivocation.

ONCE AGAIN, I challenged your implicit implication that the reason that "some" Christians attempt to convert people to Christianity is because they "want us to seek truth". And AGAIN, that assumes that we haven't already found it. Regarding your obstinate stance on this issue, I previously said...

"Now, I seriously don't know of another way to get my point to penetrate your, evidently, very dense cranium."

Kataklysmkevin responds...Thanks for your insult.

Truth be known--sometimes I find sarcasm, and/or, ad hominem assaults, as useful tools when an opponent unceasingly denies reality, facts, and/or, if they should attempt to circumvent a point because they don't have a sound argument. In those cases, they are either "playing dumb", or they really are dumb. In either case, it's not appreciated around here.

Me: "FYI, the Christian bible claims a monopoly on the absolute, unchanging, Universal 'Truth'."

Kataklysmkevin...The bible claims, I don’t claim.

Good grief. 'Not disingenuous, are we? Um, you BELIEVE the bible, thus, by association, you claim its claims are "Truth". Perhaps you'd like to weasle-word your way of this, too?

Kataklysmkevin....You choose to repent, or you choose to indulge in sin. That’s a choice to me.

Listen closely: According to your worldview, I am a "sinner" whether I "choose" to "indulge" in "sin", or not. Thus, it boils down to being forgiven for something I have no control over ANYWAY. Thus, I don't have a "choice" to not be a "sinner", anymore than a fish has a choice to not be "wet". 'Get it?

Kataklysmkevin...If [Odin] or Mithra changed my life in the way Christ has, it would make sense to follow…but they didn’t. Only God has done such things within me.

Um, did you seek those gods out just as passionately as you did "God"..i.e.."Yahweh"? I'll wager you did not. And thus, if you didn't, then you don't know for sure that those gods could've produced the same "effects" in your life, and thus, then you don't know that "God"(Jesus) is the Ultimate Truth, "Lord of Lords", as your bible, AND you, claim.

Kataklysmkevin...I don’t have all the answers brother. You will never find someone who can answer it. It says he is Alpha and Omega, eternal.

It[the bible] also "says" that snakes, donkeys, and fauna can speak the human language. Do you believe everything you read? If so, stay away from the grocery store tabloids.

Kataklysmkevin...So because people suffer proves that God doesn’t exist and isn’t merciful, correct?

It illustrates, convincingly, that if said biblegod exists, he is not "merciful" at worst, and at best, not always "merciful". In either case, it is inconsistant with a "Perfect" being.

Kataklysmkevin....There is truth within the bible, I can’t claim if it itself is true.

Whaaa? Feel free to clarify that. Until you do, it's double-talk, as far as I'm concerned.

Kataklysmkevin...I know I will never “win” your debate. I just hope that you realize that not all “religious” people are here to try to manipulate and destroy the world.

That is a strawman; no one ever suggested any such thing. We are discussing what you believe, and why. And as you've deduced, I find it seriously lacking. But then again, with "faith", ANYTHING is possible, which is why it can be seriously dangerous.

boomSLANG said...

Tyler...Jesus was a jew anyway, right? lol

Right, so you're an extremely liberal Jew, then? lol

webmdave said...

You were an atheist for 21 years! Whoo hoo! And what materials did you read in that 21 years that was critical of Christianity?

Huh?

Anything?

What you mean is that you weren't converted to Christianity yet and you really had no stance on anything.

I don't know this, of course, but I'm sure you'll defend your position.

Are you worth my anger?

Kitty-boy, if you would stop equivocating on nearly every point, you'd have a more reasoned response from me.

You are judging people when you dogmatically assert that people must either repent (believe in Jesus) or continue to indulge in sin. Your either/or, left/right, alive/dead mentality allows nothing but judgment.

And now Tyler is whining because the discussion is toned not to her liking. Oh well! Life's tough -- get a helmet.

As usual with these discussions, the Christians offers no real answers except faith, which can reasonably be defined as ...?

What exactly is "faith" anyway? Can you touch, see, smell, hear or taste faith? Is it an idea? Is it an emotion?

What is "faith" to a Christian? And where does it come from? Can I suddenly decide to "have faith?" Can I "build my faith" by denying my reason and intellect? Or is faith more mysterious, being doled out by a soverign deity?

Christians talk like faith is some solid object that can be examined and scrutinized, but faith has a different meaning depending on the religionist that is talking.

Relationships with invisible, immaterial, deified humans, is a religion, regardless of whether you worship this thing with others or all by yourself. The attempt to hate religion, but love Jesus is just a ruse. All worship of invisible deities is religion, regardless of any lack of rituals.

Christians were invited to address Heather's questions. So far, no Christians have addressed Heather's questions. Christians have posted, but they have posted with singular intention of practicing evangelism on the apostates.

Christians: Do any of you anticipate agreeing with our position no matter what evidence, arguments, or logic is used in the discussion? Or, are you absolutely set in your position, believing with all your heart, mind and soul that your faith is the one true expression of God to man?

If you can admit to yourself that there is no argument that will ever change your mind, then you are completely closed-minded. I understand being closed-minded. I was a closed-minded Christian for a long time. Then I risked something. I toyed with the idea that I just might have been decieved by ... dum, dum DUM! Me.

That's right, I decieved myself into believing that flying chariots, floating ax heads, a talking bushe, a jabbering snake, a flying-messiah-god-man, a fish's belly apartment, and a host of other sill stories had anything to do with reality. I decieved myself into believing that an incomprehensible god could be comprehended. I decieved myself into believing that all people who reject an invitation to become a Christian are doomed.

The human mind is a funny thing. It will believe the oddest things.

Christianity with all it's angels, demons, and a three-headed god is fantasy along the lines of Homer's Illiad. It's hard for me to fathom that I once believed it at all.

Franciscan Monkey said...

I wrote:

If true, then perhaps your belief in God is good for you and has made you a better person.

kataklysmkevin responded:

So if it made me a better person, I don't understand how God can be evil.

Your belief on God may have made you a better person, but others' belief in that same God has made them worse. Also, using your logic, atheism has made some people better, are you then conceding that a lack of belief in God can be a good thing and cannot be evil?

kataklysmkevin wrote:

It's by the Lord's grace that He gave me a daughter and I fear God, so I think you know the answer to this one. But I don't believe God would make me kill my own son or daughter. He did not make Abraham do such things.

I may think I know your answer, but I want to see you write it, just to be sure. Would you kill your own daughter if God told you to? Yes or no?

kataklysmkevin wrote:

I said the creator of all things has authority [to destroy his creation].

Authority? If there were a God, I would assume he would have the authority to kill his creation. That does not mean it would be moral to do so. The God of the Bible is an immoral, evil being for commanding the Israelites to kill other people, including innocent children, plain and simple.

I wrote:

Precisely. There is no God.

kataklysmkevin responded:

You cannot say this with absolute certainty, unless of course you have absolute truth.

I cannot say with absolute certainty that there is no god of any sort, although I don't see any evidence for one. I can say with absolute certainty, however, that there is no god who is all-loving and yet would do the despicable things that the God of the Bible does. That God is not all-loving, and is not logically consistent with itself, and therefore can't exist. Now, if you contend that God is a lying, deceitful being, it would be harder to disprove your point.

I wrote:

Do you think that the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites as portrayed in the Bible was a literal event?

kataklysmkevin responded:

I cannot say, I did not witness it.

OK. If it was a literal event, would you condemn it? Do you condemn the wholesale slaughter of children? If it was not a literal event, why is it being portrayed in the Bible as a literal event? Do you then discard portions of the Bible as being untrustworthy and evil? So you don't have to search for it, I'll repost my earlier response to you:

I originally wrote:

Were the accusers in the Salem Witch Trials intending on being evil?

To which kataklysmkevin responded:

Thou shall not kill. If your not following the commandment you can't be following God.

Your answer could just as well have been, "Exodus 22:18 says, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' If you are not following the commandment you are not following God."

What parts of the Bible do you discard, kataklysmkevin? And how do you know that you are discarding the right parts?

Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

boomSLANG said...

Tyler...So if anyone wants to talk, I'd love to.

Honestly, aside from us all being people who are bouncing around the internet, etc... if there is some "other" common ground that you feel can be reached, I'd be curious to know what exactly that is. Until you disclose such, I have to liken it to a social drinker attempting to discuss their social drinking habits with an AA member. In other words, the moniker is unequivocal: EXchristian dot net.

Aside from that, if you want to discuss something completely off-topic, like, say, bass guitars or herpetology?.... then speak right up.

Tyler Dawn said...

lol, not a jew, wouldn't fit in there either.

Dave, I actually did answer a lot of Heather's question. I admitted why I did what I did. For you to claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest and to me, proves that you are just trolling and as religious as the people you are criticizing.

As for whining, that is a judgement you cannot support since I never pleaded with you to stop or repeatedly harped on it. I merely expressed disappointment that I did answer questions and instead of anyone addressing my points I got nailed on my use of verbiage. You have a religious agenda and there is no point discussing this with you. Yes, surprise, atheism can be just as much of a religion as fundamentalist Christianity. Athiests can be just as blind, arrogant, closed minded and intolerant as Christians, so no one has the luxury of riding a high horse based upon their beliefs.

I'm done here.

Raul said...

He wasn’t preaching with finger-pointing condemnation against anyone but the devotedly self-righteous
Well,you can't call a condemnation of whole cities "finger-pointing",can you?
"God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change His mind. God always keeps His promises. (Numbers 23:19)
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6)
About telling lies:
Didn't Adonai sent spirits to deceive somewhere in the OT?
p.s.
He did.

webmdave said...

Heather asked, "The question is really why on earth they try to convert me in the first place?"

She also stated, "The god in that collection of stories (The OT) is to put it bluntly a completely genocidal whacko with self-esteem issues larger and wilder than the (western) Christian persecution complex."

Tyler, you made an emotional testimonial regarding your current position, but I could find nowhere where you directly addressed Heather's primary questions. You stated you hated religion, but that you are religious, just a redefined version of religious. After that you spend your time addressing commentators and expressing your emotional view on your redefined version of Christianity.

I was not disingenuous in stating that no Christian has addressed Heather's questions. You didn't even get close to addressing her issue.

Tyler wrote, "I merely expressed disappointment..."

Looks like whining to me. You are complaining -- that's a form of whining.

Tyler whined, "You have a religious agenda and there is no point discussing this with you."

Oh brother. I am passionate at times, but passion is not religion. To have a religion, one must have a god or adhere to some rituals. I have neither. If atheism is a religion, then baldness is a hair color.

Tyler, this is not your blog, it is ours. We cannot be accused of trolling our own site. In fact, it's impossible to troll one's own site. I'm sure you'd agree if you weren't so pissed off.

I was a Christian for 30 year and have been running this website for seven. I changed my mind. I left Christianity. I'm am far from closed minded, but the weak emotional appeals of Christianity are completely ineffective on me any more. If you have some real evidence that your god exists, then I would be more than open to examine that evidence. If all you have is emotion and feelings to back up your position, then you are right, there is no point in talking to me.

Toodles.

sconnor said...

sconnor said:Answer the question. If god did not exist, would you be immoral, would you rape little children, would you murder people and would you start robbing banks?

Kata said, I said previously no, I don't have these tendencies.

Great, then you admit that you can be a good person (moral), even when you aren't under the direct surveillance from the all-seeing investigator in the sky, which fatally undermines your claim, that god is necessary for us to be good.

--S.

boomSLANG said...

Tyler is "done", but I'm certain she'll be back to read the follow-up. So, without further adieu...

Tyler, from her opening post...Just kinda happened onto this and figured I'd answer your question as best I can, which probably isn't very well at all.

What I find interesting about these remarks should be obvious, but in case it's not, what I find interesting, is that Tyler, by her own admission, has some apprehensiveness/doubt that her answers/explanations, etc., will suffice. On the other hand, when people confirm her doubt, it then becomes a "nasty" discussion, and Atheists are "closeminded"..i.e.. standard, "tit-for-tat" argument.

Tyler...First of all, I'm sorry you have had to deal with all of the crap that religion shoves onto the "unsaved."

I can't remember if someone pointed it out on this thread, or another, but it's worth repeating, nonetheless...and that is that it's utterly pointless to apologize on someone elses behalf. If I apologize on the behalf of the KKK to all "niggers", I seriously doubt that'll "set them free".

You heathen you ;)

Unfortunately, that is what a good percentage of the Christian community believes. Also unfortunately, liberal/moderate "Christians" implicitly support the fundamentalists.

Tyler...(yes, I am a smart ass)

A follower of Christ who takes the Lord's name in vain.(I'm a smart-ass, too)

Tyler...I follow Jesus, but I hate religion.

And just where do you learn the proper protocol for "following" Jesus? Is it, by chance, from the Christian bible? If so, that is precisely where the "religious" get their info'. 'See the problem, now? BTW, I thought Jesus taught not to "hate".

Tyler...But now, being free of the whole religious expectation thing, I can just be with anyone and everyone.

Evidently, you cannot be with people who don't do cartwheels in agreement with your unique, customized interpretation of Christian doctrine. Of course, EXchristian.net just possibly might've raised a "red flag", thus, tipping you off.

Tyler...I don't preach the gospel, all I try to do is just love the person in front of me.

That's admirable, and a good example. Although, one not only need not preach the gospel, but they need not reference it in any way, shape or form, to simply show human compassion to the person in front of them. If you need to be instructed, or "nudged", to do such things, then perhaps you're on the right path, however.

Tyelr...I can tell you that before God started changing me I never loved anyone.

I say, you took a mental concept, internalized it, and made the actual changes yourself. In other words, there was no external "force" at work. I'm fully confident you'll disagree, however. But again, if you need to be instructed on how and when to care for people, etc., then the more power to you....oops, I mean, more power to "Jesus".

Tyler...I know that God will get you when He wants you.

You'd think, huh? And if "He" doesn't "get us", would you concede that "He" didn't "want" to "get us"?....or will you lay blame on the person? I'd be really interested in your perspective on that.

Tyler...He knows you, I don't, and so how can I even judge you?

How? I thought for sure you figured that part out when you suggested that "some" atheists are "close-minded". And I take it that that applies to all the atheists here, yes? If I'm wrong, name one who's not "close-minded".

Tyler...As for the whole burn in hell thingie, I don't know what I believe on that.

Um, it's not a "thingie"; it is supposedly as real as "Jesus loves you!" In other words, if you don't reciprocate that "love", you are kept alive and tortured for eternity in a lake of fire. It is layed out in just as plain language as "Jesus loves you" is, and from the same resource.

Tyler...I can't make Jesus real to you, won't try

That goes without saying----much like I can't make "Mothra" real to you.

Tyler...I just enjoy people. Jesus enjoyed people a lot.

Yes, He did. He enjoyed dashing them to pieces, rubbing shit on their faces, and killing their first-borns. But of course, that's the "Old" Jesus; "He" is a changed man now, and strangely, has been exonerated of those old charges because.....well, because he promises people they can live forever if they accept him "as is".

Raul said...

boomSLANG, I must disagree with you on the topic,that all christians consider Jesus the same person as YHWH.

Dave8 said...

Christians are typically of two varieties, Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian.

Trinitarian: Jesus is just one of the three personalities in a single god's head, e.g., A Divine Multiple Personality Disorder.

Non-Trinitarian: Jesus is just one of at least "two" individual gods, (YHWH & Jesus) in a "monotheistic" religion.

Hard to determine which of the two Christian positions deserves the ever so regarded “Piffle” award” ;-)

boomSLANG said...

Raul...boomSLANG, I must disagree with you on the topic,that all christians consider Jesus the same person as YHWH.

Well, okay. So, the argument only applies to those Christians who believe the "Father", "Son", and "Ghost", are One. Now, let's see if that distinction turns up some convincing arguments for the existence for any one of them.

boomSLANG said...

'Can't let this one go...

Tyler...lol, not a jew, wouldn't fit in there either.

Tyler, you evidently missed my off-color, dry humor. By "extremely liberal Jew", I simply meant that you are soooo liberal, that you are no longer a Jew, but actually, a "Christian"(of some sort). In other words, I was poking fun at liberal religionists, in general.(n'yuk, n'yuk)

Shalom!

kataklysmkevin said...

sconnor said: Great, then you admit that you can be a good person (moral), even when you aren't under the direct surveillance from the all-seeing investigator in the sky, which fatally undermines your claim, that god is necessary for us to be good.

Yes I do but it doesn't undermine my claim completely. That only proves that some people can be moral without God, but some others can't or choose not to. Are those agreeable terms? And if you could elaborate, what is a moral person? And how did you reach that standard?

webmdave: I think we just got off on a bad start and more than likely it was my fault I apologize. If I really am making you mad I don't want to be ruining your webpage or anything. Do you mind if I ask you some questions on your beliefs more simply so I can get a better understanding? If not it's cool.

-Kevin

webmdave said...

Kat,

Sure, NP.

First, though, I suggest you read my testimonial. That will answer most of your questions.

"A Sabbatical?" or "My Anti-Testimony"

webmdave said...

Here's a couple more links on how morality exists apart from a god:

Morality without God

No Morality without the Bible?

kataklysmkevin said...

Read the testimonial, nothing but respect from my end. You are whole-heartedly seeking answers, and for these people I have utmost respect. It's a funny thing though no matter how much we think we know, our search never "ends". We can only come to certain truths (If I put my hand in fire, it gets burned) relative to our lives and influences that surround us.

Is that agreeable?

And the morality w/o God article is good, I just disagree. No further discussion needed, I just was curious to see sconnors answer.

What is real and what defines it? Do you lean towards secular humanism?

-Kevin

boomSLANG said...

Kat'....(If I put my hand in fire, it gets burned)

Yes, indeed...and each and every time you stick your "hand in fire", you'll get burned. The natural chemical processes involved, are testible, falsifiable, repeatable, and we can make predictions on it. "Fire" exists; human appendages, such as "hands", exist. No "faith" required; nothing metaphysical going on. The fact that "fire" is "hot", is evident to most human beings, and if for some reason it's not, they can see for themselves. Our search to find out if fire "burns", is at an "end".

webmdave said...

Kat wrote, " What is real and what defines it? Do you lean towards secular humanism?"

What "ism" (if any) I lean toward or how I personally understand reality is irrelevant to whether or not Christianity is true or false.

No offense, but I generally don't enjoy being questioned in this way. One reason is because I've written or posted hundreds of articles on this site which reveal a considerable portion of my philosophical thought processes. Another reason is because more often than not when Christians question me in this way, it is with some ulterior evangelistic motive aimed at trying to make my less than infallible thought processes the center of a conversation.

I would prefer that you simply state your perspective or argument regarding the OP without materially sidetracking to unrelated issues.

Fair enough?

Kat also wrote, "Read the testimonial, nothing but respect from my end. You are whole-heartedly seeking answers, and for these people I have utmost respect."

I have the impression that you are attempting to be conciliatory. However, to me that comment reeks of condescension. Your comment subtly suggests that you regard your position as superior, for only from a superior can respect be of any significant value. Frankly, and at the risk of being offensive, any kind of analysis of my stated opinions by a Christian believer is not something I am either seeking or particularly interested in acquiring. Were I interested in that, I'd could find it an any number of Christian websites. The focus of this site is toward the de-converting or already de-converted.

webmdave said...

Kat wrote, " What is real and what defines it? Do you lean towards secular humanism?"

What "ism" (if any) I lean toward or how I personally understand reality is irrelevant to whether or not Christianity is true or false.

No offense intended, but I generally don't enjoy being questioned in this way. One reason is because I've written or posted hundreds of articles on this site which reveal a considerable portion of my philosophical thought processes. Another reason is because more often than not when Christians question me in this way, it is with some ulterior evangelistic motive aimed at trying to make my less than infallible thought processes the center of a conversation.

I would prefer that you simply state your perspective or argument regarding the OP without materially sidetracking to unrelated issues.

Fair enough?

Kat also wrote, "Read the testimonial, nothing but respect from my end. You are whole-heartedly seeking answers, and for these people I have utmost respect."

I have the impression that you are attempting to be conciliatory. However, to me that comment reeks of condescension. Your comment subtly suggests that you regard your position as superior, for only from a superior can respect be of any significant value. Frankly, and at the risk of being offensive, any kind of analysis of my stated opinions by a Christian believer is not something I am either seeking or particularly interested in acquiring. Were I interested in that, I could find that at any number of Christian websites. The focus of this site is toward the de-converting or already de-converted.

Dave8 said...

Kevin: "What is real and what defines it?"

What is real? I

What defines it? I