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3/15/2009                                                                                       View Comments

The apple of God's eye?

You're the Apple of God's Eye.Image by bradjward via Flickr

By David S

As many of you are aware, a Christian pastor in Illinois was killed on Sunday March 8, in his church, no less. Certainly, a terrible tragedy and I feel horrible for his surviving family. Nonetheless, this tragedy illustrates a common theme I have found among Christians: God had a special plan for this man, and that no way, interferes with His plan for me! In other words, they never consider that maybe God's plan was cut short by this child of God being executed, and that their own lives could fall pray to the enemy as God sits idly by, doing nothing!

Someone very important to me goes to a Bible study twice a week and watches numerous television episodes of Joyce Meyer, many in which Joyce proclaims that God has a special plan for all Christians. Of course, this special plan is never divulged, but you can believe, if its from God, its special! Anyway, this friend of mine feels that God has that "special plan" for their life, even though over the last six months, this person, despite praying every single day for a financial miracle (sometimes twice a day), has only made $4K!, which is below the poverty level! How much more evidence do you need? How can God ignore the heartfelt requests of the apple of his eye, I ask?

I asked this person today how they could put their trust and faith in a God that had just allowed (without raising his supernatural finger to prevent it, which would have been beyond easy) this pastor who is actively spreading His Word (which should get you some special favors in my opinion) to be slaughtered. How could you feel that God has got any special plans for you when you can plainly see other Christians just like yourself, who are being killed and that there is in fact, no "heavenly multitudes (as my former pastor recently put it) protecting you!
Christians die just like non-Christians. This person knows that I am an atheist, and I told this person, "Had God supernaturally stopped that bullet in mid-air and allowed no harm to come to his pastor," then that is the type of evidence I would consider to be from God. Alas, no such luck.

I am appalled by the arrogance of these Christians who sincerely think they are the "Apple of God's eye" and just cannot see reality in the face; they are special and surely the harm that befalls other Christians could not touch them, because their God will protect them!

Seriously, how can a Christian with this mindset ignore the killings of the Christian students at Columbine, Virginia Tech, the occasional missionary who is either killed or imprisoned, and feel that God is watching over them? Wouldn't God have more use for these wonderful Bible spreading people here on Earth than in Heaven?

Wake up people!





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68 comments:

webmdave said...

How does God answer:

Allowing a struggle inside our cocoon so we can become a butterfly.
Causing enough pressure on us to make us like a diamond.
Irritating us enough to make us into a pearl.
The eye is sensitive to touch and reflects what we see.
Am I sensitive to God and do I reflect what He shows me.

Jesus loves you and so do I.

webmdave said...

Ywapbuffalo, does your god also like pulling the wings off those pretty butterflies and tossing them into hell when they refuse to say the Sinner's Prayer?

As for your assertion 'Jesus loves you and so do I,' I doubt that very much. You wouldn't know Me if I passed you on the street, and if Jesus ever lived he's nearly 2000 years dead now.

Don't spread your love so thin that it becomes meaningless both to you and the recipient -- Use it to effect genuine change in your own community, rather than preaching mythology to people who are happy living their lives without it.

webmdave said...

I get this sort of non-stop "Jesus insanity" from my blood relatives. The fact that an anonymous f-wit pinches a loaf on a site clearly marked Exchristian.net, really makes my blood boil.

You've irriated me enough to toast you with the baptism of the Gideon Bible. Enjoy!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49556906@N04/5019173346/

webmdave said...

A pretty little poem.

I remain unconvinced that I should build the philosophy of my life around either a pretty poem or a mythology manufactured by the Romans for political control.

Jesus loves nobody, because he is dead. The jesus you speak of never lived.

You do not love me, for, if you loved me, you would seek to enhance my life rather than attempt to drag me into slavery and servitude to a god which does not exist. If your god, as described in your holy book existed, it would not be a thing worthy of worship.

Even a potter who has decided to remould his clay does not blame the clay for his mistake, consigning it to an eternal kiln as punishment.

webmdave said...

"Allowing a struggle inside our cocoon so we can become a butterfly."

Or allowing a baby to struggle inside the womb to the point that the umbilical cord chokes it to death. Thanks "God"!

"Causing enough pressure on us to make us like a diamond."

Or causing enough pressure that we are driven to suicide. Thanks "God"!

"Irritating us enough to make us into a pearl."

Or irritating us enough that we develop cancer. Thanks "God"!

"The eye is sensitive to touch and reflects what we see."

The eye reflects what we see until around age 40, then it gradually stops working. Thanks "God"!

"Am I sensitive to God and do I reflect what He shows me.

My bullsh*t meter is sensitive to bullsh*t, and it is pegged right now.

webmdave said...

The eye is sensitive to touch and reflects what we see.

So why does god keep poking us in the eye? Hey, that hurts. Knock it off god.

Wait, god is imaginary and we are poking our own selves in the eye. So I says to myself "Self, knock it off." Problem solved.

I don't know you and have no idea if I love you.

webmdave said...

What a bunch of lost, unfortunate morons. To be a Christian, does not mean that all are led by the spirit of God. In this case, they would be equal to non-believers (like yourselves), totally and utterly in darkness! And we all know who rules the darkness, don't we? Being a born again Christian simply implies that we have redemption, because we have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That being said, one can be a Christian, and yet be, "spiritually dead!" And have no real communication with God the Father. And there is therefore no growth in the natural realm (financially, socially, health wise, or otherwise). Furthermore, they are totally oblivious to what the enemy is doing (satan). Whom of course is the sole cause of such tragedies as in the case of the man and his family in Illinois. From deep dark souls, comes deep dark things out of their hearts, and ultimately, their mouths. Hence, the dreadfully carnal man, feels somehow strengthened by imitations of himself! By the way, I beg to differ David S.....on the contrary; God definitely has a plan for all those that dare appose Him, as you and your fellow agents of lucifer have done here. May the Lord thy God have mercy on your souls.

webmdave said...

By the way David. Christians don't die the same death as you and other non-believers. Your spirit will take a completely different route upon leaving this earth. You do understand that you are a spirit, cloth in a body, don't you? Read your bible sometimes just to humor yourself. Because you obviously don't have a clue!

webmdave said...

And you are spreading this hatred that you feel on this panel for what purpose Astreja. Well, atleast our God is merciful enough to make us aware where the dark side resides. Just because you are obviously depressed, should we all be? Is that the concept? And by the way I would personally know you if I passed you on the streets, because you all look the same! Feeling that God has let you down because you chose to live your entire life based on your own desires. And how convenient for yourself, David S., and all of the others here to not believe in, not only God Almighty! But, that hell is a real place too. Now, we just live as sinful, and as shameful as we please, because we don't answer to no one. When your spirit departs that earthsuit that's occupying it right now, your'e going to go somewhere...perhaps you'll just go and hang out in London, or Paris ha? lol....what a rude awakening your'e all in for. I will pray that God has mercy upon your souls!

webmdave said...

Makes your blood boil! lol...talk about an appropriate analogy. Amazing. But, in a way, I do agree that, in this case, "the blind" should truly be allowed to lead the blind in this particular case!

webmdave said...

That's the "old testament" you are referring too. Why in the world do you people speak of something you obviously have no clue about. By the way, if I were you I wouldn't feel any type of kindship to this panel. Even non-believers knows that Jesus was a real person (good grief partner). And that Holy book that you are referring to; God doesn't punish you for doing wrong! He did however, do so in the old testament; under the old law. But, this was because of the sin of Adam, whom separated man from God. Which leads to the Lord Jesus Christ who was the new covenant. The redeemer. He bore our sins. Your sins. So that we don't have to. Just hit me up here when you require more accuracy. And don't believe everything you hear from non-belivers. That's kind of like taking marital advise from someone who doesn't believe in marriage, nor have they ever been. Thank you for your time sir.

webmdave said...

"Loving" Xian guest chirps...

"By the way David. Christians don't die the same death as you and other non-believers"

*Unsubstantiated assertion. Either prove it, or STFU.

"Your spirit will take a completely different route upon leaving this earth."

See here*, above. Stick it in your memory bank.

"You do understand that you are a spirit, cloth in a body, don't you?

You do understand what I mean when I say "unsubstantiated assertion", don't you?

See here*, above.

"Read your bible sometimes just to humor yourself."

Finally, some good advice! Taking snakes, talking donkeys, and talking shrubs, right? Right up there with HR Puff-n-Stuff and Jungle Book! Hilarious!

webmdave said...

Oh, how nice. I'm just in time for another non-believer's "pity party!" Another, "whoa is me celebration." Ah, and by the way Bnbalenda, you mentioned that God speaks in the mind of saddists...well, He's not speakin in you is He? Because those that don't believe in God are exactly that, "saddists!" I'm not kidding. Grab a dictionary and look it up. That's you!

webmdave said...

Amen JER. America has completely taken God out of everything, or just placed Him on the "back-burner," hold panels such as this one.....and the people even on this panel that blasphemes the Lord, have the audacity to ask why doesn't He do something. They should be at His feet right now thanking Him that, so far, He has done nothing to this ungrateful nation. These people are spiritually bankrupt! And I'm very sad to say, that just because many Christians are saved, they are'nt all regenerated. And they are not all "spirit led." And in the minds of these people, the only reason that some psycho hasn't push that button yet and blown this nation to smithereens yet, is because of our great national security! America is slowly becoming a modern day "Sodom & Gomorrah. So please, don't keep asking Him, "why don't you do something?" Otherwise, He just might! Be careful what you ask for....

webmdave said...

Uh, Thackerie...the concept of man being inherently evil; is the old testament you moron! Yea, for, oh, say, more than for thousand years now, there has been in establishment anew testament. Where have you been Thack! Quit believing everything someone else tells you. I assume that you are a grown-up, right? So, make your own choices based on your own research. Obviously here, you and the rest ofthis panel are far beyond your league. No one....and I mean, not one single person have written anything scriptural. Everybody just quoting something that they heard from some other non-believer. This is nothing but a pleasent little gathering place for a "pity party." Nothing more than that. I mean, let's just be frank about it. You all are just typical human beings (soulical)....you wanted what you wanted RIGHT NOW! And when you didn't get it, you turned on Him. You call Him names, and place all of the problems of the world on Him, to excuse your master! Satan! There are only 2 forces operating in the world Thack! One is good. The other, evil. I pray that even non-believers are smart enough to know that. So, since you're not led by the spirit of God! get who leads you? Exactly. The same one who has your same nature......blame it on God! Hate God and everything He stands for....sound familiar? Just wanted to be certain, that whether you all want to openly admit it or not, if you don't operate under the spirit of God, you are of the anti-christ. So, dont be confused thinking that you're just exercising your freedom of speech here. You're actually ambassadors of satan. With a little "s" nonetheless!

webmdave said...

No Wad! Both you and thackerie are simply continuing to illustrate JER'S point. 2 out of the last 2 comments written, which JER very appropriately responded to, were of an evil nature.....2 out of 2! So, would that suggest to you that people are basically good? Because if it does (and not to mention your comments about God), you just continue to bing to light the obvious; that there is something sadly wrong with you people! Who are you protecting by the way.......oh yea, evil comments....whum.....clearly not having much light in your spirit (and I realize that, that is a gross understatement), your spirits are dead indeed. And whether you like it or not, I pray for your eternal souls!

webmdave said...

No thackerie. JER'S previous statement is something that a realist would say. Now, of course the truth is painful. But, the truth is, if you turn away from God, your spiritis that of the anti-christ! You mean to tell me that you haven't wandered why you have so much hatred in your heart? Why your thoughts are filled with darkness? Where do you think this generates from?

webmdave said...

How old are you thackerie? You come off as an angry 12 year old..."I'll curse when I want to, and nobody's gonna......lol...

webmdave said...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

—Isaiah 45:7

Yep, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy...NOT.

webmdave said...

M-kay....how do you do? Actually, sometimes God's evidence, or His message to you are sent through an earthly being. That is, if that being is "spirit led." Because God is spirit, He communicates directly to a "spirit-filled believer's" spirit. Now, that being said, all so-called-Christians are not spirit-led. And that's why many of them that have been Christians for so long, are still carnally minded. A believer who's not regenerated, who's spirit is quickened by the help of the Holy Spirit; is no different than a non-believer. They are totally void of any real communication with the Father. This is why He created man three-fold (spirit, soul, body or fleshly). He gave us a flesh, so that we things inside of the Earth would be tangible to us....a soul, which is our emotions, our intellect, and our will (which includes our five senses), to comprehend what we feel, and put into perspective. Lastly, He gave made us a spirit, in order to, "keep in touch with us," so-to-speak. Now, allow me to digress, and inject some parenthetical thoughts here for a moment. Notice I stated that He gave us a body and a soul, but He made us spirit man. Meaning, we are not human beings with a spirit installed. We are spirit man, housed in a physical body (or earthly suit). Satan's job (and yes, this guy does exist as well); his job is to do everything within his power to keep us separated from the Father. But, getting back to your point about evidence that God does exist; you receive this proof daily sconnor.....intuition (that little something inside of you that alerts you to certain things within your spirit, that's the Holy Spirit)! The concept of man's ability to actually communicate directly with God the Father, and receive council, and direction, is not something that will ever make since to man's intellect. Because you can't find God, and the deep things of God, with your mind. God is SPIRIT! o your spirit man is the only one of your three components can reach Him. How do you do that, His word! It is the mind of God. Many people here on this panel have claimed to have once been a Christian, and now they are recovering from that experience. I'm sorry, but if they were not edified by that experience, it's not His fault. It's because they didn't walk according to spirit (or that intuiative voice inside of them that God assigned to guide them. Now there is scripture (which truthfully, is just ink on paper). But then there is, if you care to search deeper (the Word of God), or in the Greek is "Logos." But like prayer, the word requires us to even study in the spirit, because this is where the Lord is found. I would love to share more with you, and I have some really good references for you to help you out tremendously with awakening your spirit man. lol...is'nt it ironic...an ExChristian site, is exactly where God sent you to to find His power; and His very existance. Amazing. Take care Sconnor. I truly pray that I will here from you again. God bless.

webmdave said...

Isn't it interesting that God decides even before you were born if you would be "saved" or not? It doesn't matter what you say, believe, or do since the decision has already been made. I also find it interesting that God repented of wanting to do evil things to us.

You will most likely argue that it means "changing his mind" but at the end of the day, he thought of doing evil and wicked things to all of mankind, and according to Paul, thinking something is the same as doing something.

So, it looks to me that Biblegod is either bi-polar, or an evil tyrant who thrives on manipulation and coercion.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-6 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Romans 9: 17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

So, please tell me why such a deity would be worthy of praise, worship, and adoration? I bet it's "just in case" and not genuine, free love. I've asked before if coercion is the same as love, and if God wanted fear rather than love. I've come to the conclusion that if Biblegod exists then he is pure evil, narcissistic, and no better than a man who abuses his wife and forces her to say she loves him while she is backed into the corner and trying to shield herself from his fists.

Thanks, but no thanks.

webmdave said...

Sometimes you just gotta say it like it is.

That is the biggest pile of cowpatties I have ever seen. Babe the Blue Ox wouldn't put out cow chips this big.

I'm with Boom. STFU

webmdave said...

No, the new testament is'nt a comfort box. And some of us can actually make the claim, "I know that He's real!" How, because God is, and always has been proven in one's spirit! God is spirit, so you can prove Him with scientific proof (although, just know you know, science more proves, than disproves an existence of God. They just call Him, some higher being)! Now, what I'm going to suggest next is elementary; because there is "creation," there has to be a "Creator!" Now, you can call it what you want. But, all the different species of animal and insects, planets, the galaxies...etc...are all a part of the Father's creation!

webmdave said...

I'm confused; so, you don't assert 100% that He doesn't exist, but you don't believe He does? And when you say we, has everyone here agreed to allow you to deny the Lord on their behalf. Let me enlighten you on something, once being a Christian, and even current Christians, doesn't denote that you were, or that they are spirit led! And we are not required to prove anything to you! Who are you anyway? You don't even have a real name as your title.....There are Christians that have still not matured to "solid foods" yet. After years of being a Christian, and that's because they don't walk in the spirit! This is prodominantly the reason you find yourselves in the state of darkness that you are currently in. Because you witnessed, and were influenced by the wrong "so-called" Christians. By the way, satan does spend much time in the church. It's located here on earth (in the earthly realm, his playground). I read a story of a guy that was once an accult member before giving his life to Christ. He spoke about how lucifer would strategically position his agents (other cult members & himself) in the church to destroy the faith of the believer. You may be surprised to know, that some of them even held offices in the church (Pastor, Evangelist, Bishop...etc). And, it doesn't mean that your'e an evil person because you became weary. That's the enemy's job! You just weren't spiritually equiped to deal with the warfare that was going on in your life at the time. But, the Lord will send you someone to bring you home...this I know. I'm willing to bet ya that, even now, as well as then, you experienced a lot of "sleep deprivation" didn't you? Fealt like something was weighing down on you while you slept? New what was going on around you, but couldn't wake up! What scientist calls deprivation, is nothing more than demonic attacks! And you wrote previously 1 year ago on this panel. And perhaps they have slowed somewhat. And that's because satan feels as though he already has your soul now. And in retrospect, he did cause you to turn away from your God. And that's his complete reason for his continued existance. I want you to think back to when you were still in the church. Still trusting and believe in God. At some point during your walk with God, all hell broke loose. You called and called on the Lord, and it seemed that He just was'nt there. When these things begin to hppen, it's a clear sign that you are having a spiritual breakthrough. And satan understood that better than you yourself did. And he stepped-in. But you're right to a degree....you weren't at the place where God had placed you at (the church where He placed you at). Because if you were, you would have been taught by the spirit, not by your preacher (some carnal man). Only the spirit, can teach you God's true word! But, most pastors in the "circular" church haven't been taught the true things of the spirit, so they just don't know! And that's truly unfortunate, because you can't speak to a man's spirit penetrate a man's spirit, unless you speak to him the things given to you by the holy spirit. No matter how well spoken you are, or how educated you may be, it's useless, save given by the spirit. Even now, save the Holy Spirit gives me the words, I wouldn't have even been able to apprehend, and begin to awaken your spirit man right now. it's the breath of life. Or as the Greeks call it.......come on you know this one, "Zoe!" I know it's been a long time. But, whether you know it or not, He has kept you from many many dangers..and you turn your back on Him. Now turn around in your spirit and face Him like a man! See if He answers you. And then write me back, if I can be of any furthe assistance.

webmdave said...

Feeling that god let us down? You know full well that the supernatural doesn't exist. If you really believed in it, you wouldn't be here insulting us and pushing us further away from your religion just to make yourself feel high and mighty. You'd be on your knees praying for our salvation. And stop projecting your idea of "desires" onto us. Just because living life according to your desires might mean a non-stop cocaine-and-hookers fest, that doesn't make it the same for us. Tch.

webmdave said...

"Spirit" is subjective. Science cannot prove "a higher being" as existing. You "know" he's real in your imagination....

webmdave said...

Hate to burst your bubble, but the NT is *not* a replacement for the OT. The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and Jesus said he came not to change the law - not one jot or tittle. The OT is popped out when convenient i.e. throwing out sins from Leviticus, but those self-same people still eat shrimp and lobster, and wear mixed fibers, no?

The bible is not meant to be a cafeteria where you pick and choose the parts you like. One last thing: we are not "ambassadors of satan" as you call us. We can't be ambassadors of something that doesn't exist, no more than we are rebelling against Thor or Zeus because we don't believe in them.

The bible says there comes a time to put away childish things, and that is what we have done. Religion was created by MAN to explain where lightening came from, how the earth came to be, and as a crutch because people in general fear death and want to desperately cling to some belief that there is something after death. No matter how hard people wish or how many want to buy into it, that doesn't make it true.

There are more Muslims than there are Christians, so why don't you read the Qu'ran and pray to Allah? The Qu'ran also preaches hellfire and damnation if you are a "Person of the Book" i.e. other Abramaic religions, and I don't see you groveling in fear of Allah. Why not? Muslims "feel convicted in their heart" just as much as you do, so how do you know THAT isn't the truth?

There is no way you can possibly know. Neither do I. There may be a creator somewhere, I can't say for sure if there is or there isn't, but I do know one thing: the deity in the bible isn't he/she and is not worthy of worship.

webmdave said...

Nothing can be known with 100% certainty, therefore to claim certainty for anything is merely an assertion without factual basis. However, that does not stop someone from reaching a conclusion based on the evidence available to them.

"So called" Christians are so called because they believe that Jesus is the messiah Christ, which is the only qualifying characteristic of the label.

Numinous experiences are not limited to professors of the Christian faith, and having undergone such an experience is not proof of anything. Even theologically, there is nothing to show that the experiences of one religion are true given that this would also mean indistinguishable experiences of other religions would be false.

Furthermore, experience of the "holy spirit" does not significantly differ from the effects of known material agents including, but not limited to, certain drugs, temporary neurochemical imbalances and some mental illnesses.

So, given the multitude of possible explanations both natural and supernatural for any "spiritual" evidence, yes you will have to provide evidence that your particular interpretation should be considered any more valid than any other, otherwise it won't be.

webmdave said...

There are also over 38,000 denominations that identify as Christian, and I would wager 30,000 or so think they are the only ones who are going to heaven.

webmdave said...

Says the guy with the imaginary friend! :-/

webmdave said...

Who are we???? Seriously??? We are ex-Christians, and if you bothered to read the disclaimer, it says exactly that.

Who the hell are you???

webmdave said...

As far as "I can prove he exists because I feel him" you can trick yourself into feeling almost anything you wish. I used to believe in Santa too, and could "feel" him watching me to see if I was good or not.

webmdave said...

Jesus also had blue eyes and blonde hair, just like me! I know it's true, because I've seen pictures ;)

webmdave said...

"Just hit me up here when you require more accuracy."

You, sir, are not allowed to be in charge of accuracy as proven by your completely inaccurrate statements in your paragraph above. Not to mention the inaccuracies in your paragraphs below.

webmdave said...

boomSLANG wins with best post!

webmdave said...

We have read the bible. Many times over. Actually reading and studying the bible is why we no longer believe.

webmdave said...

Jesus fucking Christ Billw

You are scary STUPID!


Ex-Pastor Dan

webmdave said...

Who on earth are you to dare say that these people's spirits are dead? How many times have you, out of hatred or anger, swore at someone/something, or thought bad thoughts about someone? I can guarantee it has happened on more than a few occasions, so under the same criteria, I could say the same thing about you.

If you need the Bible to tell you what is right and just and what is wrong and unjust, then please, keep reading it and keep believing. We who are intelligent enough to think for ourselves and reason with facts decisively, know what is morally right and wrong, and it did not come from bronze-age book.

webmdave said...

Hahahaha, all I can do is read this and laugh. Are you serious? Are you from the Westboro Baptist Church or something?

Honestly, I don't know how someone can think things like this are true yet walk down the street with the rest of us like a normal human being.

You truly need to be admitted to an asylum somewhere and be studied. You know, I usually try and be patient and kind to those with "beliefs" but when someone brings up the 'ole "modern day Sodom & Gomorrah" I can't help but instantly put you down on the lowest possible tier of intelligence.

You have no right to come here and tell us that we should be "on our knees" thanking the lord for not blowing us up yet, not to mention playing God for yourself by telling us that it is our souls that are damned and dark. Who are you to make that judgement? Who gave you the right? If your God does exist (which he most certainly does not) then it is up to him to judge, no? Therefore you are no better than those you say are damned. You truly are a self-righteous piece of trash. There is no nice way to put it.

webmdave said...

Billw -

You are scary STUPID! Do you realize you are commenting to a lot of posts that are over a year old?

What a fucking moron!

XPD

webmdave said...

If God showed himself to be real and tangible, that wouldn't make us all worshiping robots. It would just be God saying, "Hey guys, check it out, I'm real! You can believe now!" And then we would have the choice to believe based on evidence. It doesn't just suddenly make us robotic followers. It would give people real, true reason to believe in something higher than us..

But of course, God would rather play games with us silly little beings. We're just his big ant farm, right? Like you said yourself,

"If everyone believed in God because He made them believe and worship him, then what satisfaction would God have from a bunch of robots who didn't choose to follow him, but were forced to?"

Good question... are you implying that we are here to give God satisfaction? You also mention him being delighted... what kind of God could get satisfaction and delight when he is omnipotent? He knows what is going to happen already, which makes those emotions useless. Yet another example of humans modeling God after themselves. And yet another example of why, if God were real, I would most likely choose not to follow him. I am not his plaything with which he gets delight from.

webmdave said...

You are a walking contradiction. You said "From deep dark souls, comes deep dark things out of their hearts, and ultimately, their mouths"....but earlier stated "What a bunch of lost, unfortunate morons."

You also said "To be a Christian, does not mean that all are led by the spirit of God" and also "Being a born again Christian simply implies that we have redemption, because we have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

YOU ARE NOT BORN AGAIN.
For proof of your claim give us the details of how you came to be born again?
Also proof of real communication with God the Father and the power of divinity, I'm sure the Heavenly has shown you if you are truely an adopted child, a BORN AGAIN.

You talk underneath these people, and say you are a REPRESENTATIVE from Heaven, a born again is utterly spiritually deprived.

webmdave said...

"Your isolation of this incident as cause for proof (or lack thereof) that there is no God only reveals your self-serving bias."

And you people all do this every single day on a day-to-day basis. You ignore evidence. You call everything you cannot explain "Gods will", or "Gods plan". Grow some fucking balls and ask yourself some questions. It is so disheartening to see people so goddamn brainwashed!

Do you know why the tangible proof we seek will never be met? It is NOT because we seek an unrealistic proof. It is because what you believe in does not exist, plain and simple. It is a deluded fantasy that weak-hearted and simple-minded sheep cling to to give them the answers that they themselves are scared of admitting that they do not know. A God that has the power to create a universe in six days surely has enough power to give the planet a sign that there is something worth believing in. But if all your God wants to do is play games with us and toy with our minds, then he can kiss my ass. Children dying of cancer, people starving, genocide, pedophilia, rape, murder, torture... yet you Christians attend your nice little church ceremonies on Sunday, with your nice collared shirt, and your pressed pants and nice shoes, and talk about how great things are with God, and how great it is that God gave you that new car. There is so much time and money spent on religion while we let real solvable issues fall to the wayside... hell, why worry about this stupid 'ole planet when this is just a pit stop on the way to heaven.

webmdave said...

Billw: "And you are spreading this hatred that you feel on this panel for what purpose Astreja."

To free humanity from your unconscionable, inhuman and worse-than-useless death cult.

You are a sick man, Bill. You are ill with a belief that leads you to believe that it's a *good* thing to allow an innocent man to die in your place. Your life is propped up with the unstable and demented idea that a "loving" god could and would create a place of eternal punishment.

"Just because you are obviously depressed, should we all be?"

I, sir, quite enjoy My life. I enjoy it precisely because it *is* finite, and that My destiny is to be recycled into other forms of matter, for as long as the universe endures.

"And by the way I would personally know you if I passed you on the streets, because you all look the same! Feeling that God has let you down because you chose to live your entire life based on your own desires."

*KAPOW*

For that slander, Billw, may your dreams be haunted by the sight of your "loving" god casting each and every one of your real-life loved ones into the hell that you believe in. May you awaken in a cold sweat, screaming for mercy.

Until that morning when you will awaken and realize with surprise and relief that your faith is simply gone. And on that day, may you know what real peace of mind feels like, and enjoy many happy years thereafter with friends and family.

webmdave said...

*BONK* Shaddup, Bill. Your fate is to become an Ex-Christian, whether you like it or not.

webmdave said...

Bill, there is no evidence for "spirits." As much as you might like to think that you will live on after your death, there is absolutely no credible evidence for this. None. Not a sausage.

webmdave said...

The only darkness that occasionally enters my thoughts has to do with chocolate. Loves me some of that Devil's Food!

So as a mind reader you are a miserable failure.

In fact, I suspect you fail as any kind of reader. Otherwise, you might have noticed that you were responding to a post that's A YEAR OLD! Did it really take you that long to think of a response? Really, you needn't have bothered.

webmdave said...

"...if Biblegod exists then he is pure evil, narcissistic, and no better than a man who abuses his wife and forces her to say she loves him while she is backed into the corner and trying to shield herself from his fists."

I am a recent defector of the Christian faith and whole heartedly agree with this statement.

There is no better description of the fictional god of Genises through Revelation than that of an abusive husband, and no better description of a Christian than that of a terrified and dependent wife who must constantly make excuses and lie for her abuser.

I am almost through reading the bible for the third time and it almost seems like a deliberate theme!

webmdave said...

Perhaps god only protects the "real true righteous christians" he he he

webmdave said...

I have many times asked myself this same question. Why? The Bible is full of stories of god either killing the unbeliever, or letting the unbeliever kill the believer. Believers seem to have just as much luck in life as the unbeliever. Jesus allegedly went to the cross, not because he did anything wrong, but because the 'believers' wanted him dead. From my vantage point, christians have just as much trouble in life as everyone else. With or without being the apple of gods eye.

webmdave said...

If it is never divulged even to the person, then how can there be a "special plan"? If they don't know what the plan is, then how can they go the right way to make it happen? How can a person help make it happen if they aren't let in on the plan? Joyce Meyer makes no sense.

webmdave said...

If it is never divulged even to the person, then how can there be a "special plan"? If they don't know what the plan is, then how can they go the right way to make it happen? How can a person help make it happen if they aren't let in on the plan? Joyce Meyer makes no sense.

webmdave said...

Actually God is a failure because if he really had a plan for man, why can't he convert everyone to his religion himself? Why aren't many people successful ? What kind of a religious arrogance is that, when there so many people who dying of hunger, genocide, there are children women, men are abused daily, there are discriminations on different kind of minorties, also those who are in the same-sex relaitionship. There's corruption in churches who demand 10% from its followers because God is broke and poor that he can't help the church grow. It's all about power and it's all about clergy. What has God done for the financial crisis ? Nothing! why? because he's a failure who does not exist ! He speaks in minds of men who fear freedom and konowledge, he speaks in the minds of paedophiles, abusers, saddists and other imbeciles. God is a puppet who speaks behind extreme right wing people around the world, where it's political or religious. So Christians don't come here and start telling us that it's all our fault. I don't buy this scenario.

webmdave said...

I believe more and more that economics is the basis for everything. How people get rich and never have to actually do any real "work' or die in any wars. You make other people do the real work and other do the real fighting and real dying plus suffer the realinjuries. At least for the most part. Religion is part and parcel how you control the masses and those new rich in each generation can usethe religion taught them to justify why they got rich! It was the will of "God!" God wanted me to be rich is a common claim. For the religious monks, nuns,priests, ministers ,at least from the poor churches, they too are doing "God's "will! Do any of you notice how working people can be overpaid and the media and politicians will lead an assault to roll back the wages of those who have good paying jobs while the sky is the limit and it is also a secret what their income actually is while working people wages are public knowledge. Who can afford to run for most public offices. You do not see many from the working class! The ones who make up most of "the people" that the country is supposedly based on. No they do the work and do the dying. Actually most of the harder work is done by the low paid or and the most unhealthy and unsafe work is done by the low paid. Right now the military soldiers have been recruited from the poorest elements which is fine for most of the "middle class". Better them than us is what I suspect most think privately. Class rules! email at thnk4yurself@yahoo.com

webmdave said...

"Why can't he convert everyone to his religion himself?"
This is not what God wants. He wants each individual to come to Him on their own doing. We are givien free will to make decisions. You say God does not exist because he does not solve the world's problems. But lets say for the sake of discussion, that when you woke up tomorrow all the world's problems were cured. Would you then believe?

"What has God done for the financial crisis?"

Why should God have to do anything for the financial crisis? Do we deserve His blessings? We are a greedy and morally depraved nation who continues to push God out of our lives. The human race is evil in nature. Your argument seems to assume that man is generally good in nature, hence your distorted perception of this world. Since man in evil in nature there will always be wars, famines, disease, genocide, abuse and financial struggle. These are the consequences of man's sin.

webmdave said...

Do dissenting viewpoints get published on here? I haven't seen my other two comments posted in the time that several other comments have come through...why the delay?

Do dissenting viewpoints get published on here? I haven't seen my other two comments posted in the time that several other comments have come through...why the delay?


Yes.

Yes.

Whacked-out, warped and illogical blatherings -- steeped in obsessive compulsiveness are also published, as evidenced by your posts.

--S.

webmdave said...

Congratulations on all your reading. How about some reasoning? We are Ex-Christians. That means that, once upon a time, we were Christians. We read the Bible, believed, preached, witnessed, evangelized, etc. You do not need to lecture us about things we already know.

Atheism does not assert 100% that God does not exist; based on the lack of evidence for his existence, atheists do not believe in the existence of God. Atheists do not claim to know for certain. The burden of proof is on the believer, i.e. you. The onus is not on the unbeliever to prove non-existence.

webmdave said...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

webmdave said...

How can God ignore the heartfelt requests of the apple of his eye, I ask?

God has a plan for each and every one of us, but it is not revealed all at once. In fact, most people deviate from that plan because we are given the free will choose our path in life. All men sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, we are all open to the consequences of sin which include things like death and financial woes. God is not some big cosmic teddy bears who winks at sin and then gives us whatever we (believer and non-believers) ask for. Just because someone is a believer doesn't mean they are going to coast through life without facing any adversity. This is preposterous.

I agree to your point that some Christians appear arrogant when they say that God has a 'special' plan for them, as if it is only His followers He is concerned about. We are all His creation and therefore He loves us all the same. Unfortunately, many people of the faith have felt this sense of entitlement because they are a believer in God. This prideful attitude is not and will not be rewarded by God. It is pride, in fact, that disrupts man's relationship and worship with God.

"Had God supernaturally stopped that bullet in mid-air and allowed no harm to come to his pastor," then that is the type of evidence I would consider to be from God. Alas, no such luck.

If it were only that easy then everyone would be a believer wouldn't they? If you are familiar with Christianity, then you know that there is a strong element of faith to it. People are always seeking concrete proof before they choose to believe in God. If everyone believed in God because He made them believe and worship him, then what satisfaction would God have from a bunch of robots who didn't choose to follow him, but were forced to? That's why we are given the choice to accept or reject Him. God delights in those who choose to follow and worship Him on their own doing, not because someone told them to do it or because of some existing, tangible proof that convinced them. However, this requires that we swallow our pride, something which all people struggle with regardless of our religious convictions.

The conversion experience is between you and God and he reveals Himself to people in different ways. Just because God didn't 'supernaturally' reveal himself in this particular incident is no reason to doubt his existence. Your isolation of this incident as cause for proof (or lack thereof) that there is no God only reveals your self-serving bias. The tangible proof you seek to support a belief in God will never be met because your expectations are unrealistic to begin with. Your expectations are shaped by a worldview which tells you that there is no God, therefore, you will look for any 'evidence' that continues to support this.

webmdave said...

Classic ad hominem attack. It only devalues your already childish and convoluted point of view that much more. The ill-nature of your last sentence seeks only to serve my point; that is unless you don't consider yourself to be one of those people that is "basically good" or "basically benign." Is that something that a good-natured person would say?

The bad is all around us. I don't suppose you pay much attention to the news? Wars, murder, rape and greed are just a few of the themes that dominate the headlines. Certainly in established first world countries, we don't feel the effects from many of these bad things to the same extent that a third world country might. While I agree that there are people in this world with the best of intentions, we all have the capability of doing and saying things that are inherently evil. It is naive of you to think otherwise.

webmdave said...

RL jer, since you asked, I'll answer. you said = " that when you woke up tomorrow all the worlds' problems were cured. Would you then believe? " The answer is NO. And the reason it's no, is because unlike you fundies, I love to read, and search, and go outside of ( what for you, would be your comfort box ). Have you EVER read anything outside of what your church preaches, or outside of what your christian book store recommends ?? Do you believe in science ?? Obviously not. And, no, the human race is not evil in nature. Although I have to say, that after reading your bible, I certainly find the majority of the writers to be placed in the evil category. The human race is HUMAN, that I like to think has mostly good intentions. You are obsessed with sin. There is no such thing as sin, only very human failings. Again, as with you who continue to pop in to berate us with your deluded logic, I challenge you to read just one book ( I've read your book, it's only fair that you read my book, so that maybe you can UNDERSTAND ) The book is " The God Delusion " by Richard Dawkins, a brilliant and highly respected scientist. Are you up to the challenge ? Do you have the courage to look out side of your " comfort box ? "

webmdave said...

First off, let's be clear: That example was only used as an illustration to make my point that any kind of proof will never be enough proof for those people seeking to find tangible evidence for God's existence.

I suppose that according to your idea of "looking outside of my comfort box" by coming onto this website and engaging in a discussion with you I would be stepping outside of my comfort box (and this isn't my first time, so don't feel too special). It is disingenuous of you to make such a bold and unfounded assertion regarding whether or not I believe in science. To be fair, however, science is not my guiding light, as it may be for you, but I do welcome scientific discovery in areas such as modern medicine and technology.

Who or what says there is no such thing as sin? Have you, in your finite human wisdom, come to this conclusion based on sound facts? The fact of the matter is that your worldview is shaped by a belief that there is no God, so anything that opposes that view is considered to be fatuous. Just as you say my point of view is delusional I can say the same about yours. The problem with your point of view is that you have created fictitious evidence in order to support your idea that there is no God. On the contrary, I have not created any evidence. The writing is on the wall, so to speak. You have made the choice to reject the Bible and its truth and you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. Are you 100% certain that God does not exist? Even Richard Dawkins is not 100% certain (see his interview with Ben Stein).

I have read books by Carl Sagan and many of the writings of Stephen J. Gould, but have not read "The God Delusion." But why do I need to? Is your viewpoint and the viewpoints of most atheists not a reflection of the writings and thoughts of those like Richard Dawkins? Why read a book when I can interact with the supporters of those viewpoints firsthand? In reading Sagan and Gould, I realized almost instantly that these men were profoundly intelligent. But it was also this acute thinking that lead them to question things beyond their intellectual capacity (i.e the meaning of life, proof for the existence of God). However, in their pursuit for answers their thinking became misguided. Because the evidence for God couldn't be tested by science, they assumed that there must be another explanation. Ergo, they began to search for other evidence, testable evidence...evidence that could only be explained by human reasoning and scientific logic. They assume, as you do, that there is only one right answer regarding the existence of God. This conclusion is faulty though because it consists of evidence and logic that man created in order to support his theory so that it might be seen as the truth. Man does not, and never will, have all the answers.

Time for me to crawl back into my comfort box now.

webmdave said...

Do dissenting viewpoints get published on here? I haven't seen my other two comments posted in the time that several other comments have come through...why the delay?

webmdave said...

Do dissenting viewpoints get published on here? I haven't seen my other two comments posted in the time that several other comments have come through...why the delay?

webmdave said...

Do dissenting viewpoints get published on here? I haven't seen my other two comments posted in the time that several other comments have come through...why the delay?

webmdave said...

RLjer,

How do you know ANYTHING about god? I can understand you having BELIEFS about god, but they are subjective assumptions. It's best to say "I think", or "I believe" before your statements. Otherwise, your god ceases to be mysterious and has the same thoughts as you do.

What makes you more knowledgable than Sagan or Gould or Dawkins, pertaining to god? Don't tell me it's faith....that's an acceptance of the new testament's view of god regardless of any intelligent thoughts you might have. There is no evidence of the christian god apart from the new testament. To prove or disprove god is not possible. If it were, we would have known long ago. So is the new testament your comfort box?

webmdave said...

Actually, it's you who has unrealistic expectatiions. First of all there are 6 billion people on this planet and there are over 10,000 religions and what makes your religion a true one? Just because you believe in Yaweh? come on! First of this thing about free will and robots we've all heard it before and we don't buy this scenario. Your view of reality is very infantile and your god will soon evaporate like smoke some day. He has always been a failure and will always be one. He speaks behind ignorant men who abuse small children, mistreat other peoples etc. Your god is a jealous god because he is insecure and he has nothing to do because he is lazy.

webmdave said...

Actually, it's you who has unrealistic expectatiions. First of all there are 6 billion people on this planet and there are over 10,000 religions and what makes your religion a true one? Just because you believe in Yaweh? come on! First of this thing about free will and robots we've all heard it before and we don't buy this scenario. Your view of reality is very infantile and your god will soon evaporate like smoke some day. He has always been a failure and will always be one. He speaks behind ignorant men who abuse small children, mistreat other peoples etc. Your god is a jealous god because he is insecure and he has nothing to do because he is lazy.