3/30/2009                                                                                       View Comments

Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands

By DocMike

I don't understand how any modern woman can buy into the teachings of the . It's so obvious, the book was written by men; specifically men who believed that women were inferior. And I'm not even talking about the here. This one is from Ephesians:

5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Yeah, I know it goes on to say that men should love their wives even as Christ loved the church, but love is not equality. You can love your pet or your big screen TV, but you don't think of them as equals.

Here are a few more from the :
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

(See The Skeptic's Annotated Bible for more examples)

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24 comments:

webmdave said...

It is obvious that all of you only look for and at the verse that makes you feel better about what you WANT to believe. That's ok cause Jesus did say that they will hear and not understand, they will see and not believe. The truth is that when you truly understand what Jesus did at the cross then all the other things fall into place.

webmdave said...

It is obvious that you only look for and at the verse(s) that makes you feel better about what you WANT to believe. The truth is that when you understand that the things jesus supposedly did are mere legend and myth, other things will fall into place. Like your own hipocrisy. Truly.

webmdave said...

It is obvious that you, as a christian, are an expert on cherry-picking bible verses. That's why there are over 30,000 christian denominations. The truth is that when you understand christianity is based on ancient myths and legends and that the church was created as a political move, other things will fall into place. Dare you truly investigate without wearing your god-goggles? If so, you just might end up like us -- EXchristian.

webmdave said...

Ben Eberly: "The truth is that when you truly understand what Jesus did at the cross then all the other things fall into place."

Funny thing, Ben: That's one of the things that made Me into an EX-Christian. I realized that the cruciFiction simply makes no sense even as mythology, and that accepting that alleged long-weekend sacrifice is immoral and dishonourable.

webmdave said...

Dear Ben,

Please eloborate on what you mean by "ALL the other things fall into place."

Because many (if not most) of us here at Ex-Christian.Net understand very clearly and completely "what Jesus did at the cross..."
I grew up hearing it. I preached it. I accepted it whole heartedly. I believed it. I faithed it. I received it. I lived it.

In the end, it meant nothing. It fell flat! Because it never really happened. It's not real!

So please tell us about ALL of those things that have fallen in place in your life, since you believed in the fairy tale of the cross of calvary. Has it made you a better person? Have you sold ALL that you possess (everything!) and given it to the poor? Have you taken up 'your cross' and followed in Jesus' footsteps? Are you willing to die for your faith?

I feel the leading of the Holy Spirit that you should go to Iraq and preach Christ and him crucified to the poor lost souls of Islam. Go now......GO NOW!! GO AND GIVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOUR CRUCIFIED LORD! YOUR REWARD WILL BE GREAT!................if you are correct.

What if they are correct and Muhammad is the true prophet of the most hight God? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? What then?

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

webmdave said...

What is funny is that Christians hear nothing and understand, see nothing and yet believe. Faith is believing in the imaginary god despite all the evidence that god simply isn't there. It is obvious that you wouldn't know truth if it bit you in the behind.

webmdave said...

Oh Ben.....Ben.......Where are you Ben?

We're waiting for your reply.........................................

Oh well, I guess Ben was a hit-n-run trolling!

XPD

webmdave said...

Paul does not encourage slavery

Except for slaves?

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. - Colossians 3:22

webmdave said...

When I was doing my research that lead to my deconversion I found an interesting fact. In Eph 5:33 it says, "...the wife see that she reverence her husband." The greek verb for reverence is actually the greek verb "to fear." This is the only time in the entire KJV that this word is translated as reverence. The word is used to mean actual fear and to mean fearing god. So xtians are actually supposed to be "afraid" of god and wives are supposed to show their husbands the same "fear" they show god. I think I found this because of some apologist BS about different connotations of the word fear. It include some statement to the effect of, "we know we're not supposed to actually be 'afraid' of god." Well, that's not what the book actually says... So xtian wives, make sure your afraid of your husbands.

My wife and I use this as a joke now. When she beats me in an argument, I'll occasionally tell her to fear me; she will then follow with a "you can't use that anymore."

webmdave said...

Ephesians 5.22, when taken out of context, leads to misunderstanding such as evidenced in most of the comments made here. It's true that Paul lived and operated in a culture that held women to be underlings, but he does not sanctions abuse and mistreatment of women in this text. His goal (and as a divinely inspired writer, God's goal) is to provide the framework in which God's desires for his creation to engage in meaningful and happy marriages can be realized. Critical comments often proof-text, taking a verse out of context and fail to see the overall picture. Verse 21 begins the pericopae with "Submit to one another." The mutural submission enjoined here is what makes a beautiful marriage. Christ does not endorse and Paul does not encourage slavery, taskmastering, abuse (verbal or physical) or any degradation of any sex. Paul addressed this letter to believers in Ephesus. The template of faith must be in place in the home for these admonitions to produce their true benefit. In Christian homes, if husbands and wives understand and fulfill their roles the home is blessed. This is not about "you do what I say, I give the orders here, I'm the boss," or anything like that. This is about men being leaders in their homes, setting right examples, guiding the home in a godly direction. And contrary to modern misconceptions of leadership, leaders go first, in front. That means first to serve, first to sacrifice, first to yeild themselves to God, first to forgive, first to seek forgiveness. Leaders set the example and love "as Christ loved the church and GAVE himself for it" (emphasis mine).

webmdave said...

Ephesians 5.22, when taken out of context, leads to misunderstanding such as evidenced in most of the comments made here. It's true that Paul lived and operated in a culture that held women to be underlings, but he does not sanctions abuse and mistreatment of women in this text. His goal (and as a divinely inspired writer, God's goal) is to provide the framework in which God's desires for his creation to engage in meaningful and happy marriages can be realized. Critical comments often proof-text, taking a verse out of context and fail to see the overall picture. Verse 21 begins the pericopae with "Submit to one another." The mutural submission enjoined here is what makes a beautiful marriage. Christ does not endorse and Paul does not encourage slavery, taskmastering, abuse (verbal or physical) or any degradation of any sex. Paul addressed this letter to believers in Ephesus. The template of faith must be in place in the home for these admonitions to produce their true benefit. In Christian homes, if husbands and wives understand and fulfill their roles the home is blessed. This is not about "you do what I say, I give the orders here, I'm the boss," or anything like that. This is about men being leaders in their homes, setting right examples, guiding the home in a godly direction. And contrary to modern misconceptions of leadership, leaders go first, in front. That means first to serve, first to sacrifice, first to yeild themselves to God, first to forgive, first to seek forgiveness. Leaders set the example and love "as Christ loved the church and GAVE himself for it" (emphasis mine).

webmdave said...

This crazy Quiverful or whatever it's called is very degrading for women and I don't even understand how in the world, unless they are insecure or mentally ill, could fall for yet. However, I do believe this ideology has gone on long before the date that is given concerning it, because my mother has been wrapped up in it for years. She was so submissive, that if her ex-husband wanted even me, she would have had even more kids. It's insanity IMO.

webmdave said...

The ironic thing is that Xtians criticize Muslims for their treatment of women! Following the logic of these verses, if a Xtian husband wanted his wife to wear a veil and have a "female circumcision," she would have to comply. Even more reason why people should see that the NT is just as barbaric as the OT and regard the whole bible as an interesting ancient document with no relevance for today (if it was ever really relevant for any age)!

webmdave said...

Hey, I agree with all that, but men get a bum rap in the NT as well.

I realise that a few assumptions are being made (Jesus existed AND was executed BECAUSE he loved us), none of which I agree with, but on the basis of these, men are instructed to love their wives as jesus supposedly loved us, dying for us. LOVE YOUR WIFE ENOUGH THAT YOU WOULD DIE FOR HER.

That, I respectfully suggest, is somewhat harder to achieve than merely obeying orders.
The whole thing is a myht, but if we are going to complain about it, let us be complete in our complaints.

;o)))

David

webmdave said...

I appreciate the fact that some authors are writing more about women caught in authoritarian marriages. Evan Stark writes about coercive control and shows how otherwise intelligent women are brainwashed in some way to endure these neanderthal conditions.

The abused women I know are now lawyers and administrators, some of them, so it isn't lack of intelligence. I wish I knew. But it is a terrible cruelty that Christian men are condemning women to. I wish there was a society for the prevention of cruelty to wives.

I look back now and wish that a helicopter with US marines on it had just swooped down and kdinapped me. And I am not even American! :-)

I fantacize that I was rescued but ultimately I just snuck out one night with a few books and clothes, while my ex hubby was out. I will never be able to explain it and I can't bear to think that Christians justify this. I wish such teaching was made illegal.

But it is wrong to make women who have been caught up in this feel any more stupid than others who have swallowed other nonsense from the pulpit.

webmdave said...

First of all I had to laugh at the comic strip, that was so funny. But it shows the other side like glebelyth said. Men are suppose to love their wives enough to die for them like in chivalrous days. That way the idea that women submit or more the idea of respect and yield to their man would be balanced out by the fact that he would yield to her because of love. Men need respect and women need to feel like she is priority to her man, she needs to feel loved. That is the way the sexes were created. But is rarely practiced in our society or faith.

God managed to get in the scriptures also that if a man abused his wife his prayers would not be answered, but unfortunately the scriptures were written in a society that were run by men, and after the fall when God put enmity between the devil and the women, guess what, hatred for women started manifesting in any man's flesh that didn't love God more than himself,
if a man loves God, he has a tender heart and treats women with respect and tenderness, and the women will naturally yield to him because she feels emotionally safe, this does not mean she has no brain either. Its more the attitude towards the other, not a law. The law kills people as the scriptures say. But unfortunately this is rare, most of the christian men I know are secretly women haters.

In all fairness, I will comment on the scriptures about the silence of women in the church, I was outraged when I first learned this, I mean outraged, but it did help when I found out in history that the Corinthians's were a Goddess culture, in other words the gods they served were female and the women or priestess ruled so when the Christan salvation message entered in their society, there was still a battle in the church, in that day the women sat in the back and couldn't hear the preaching and would talk through the service and the men sat in the front, so that is what Paul is talking about when he says if they hear and learn anything at all (sitting way in the back) rather then talk through the service let them ask when they get home.
I know, why were the women in the back in the first place, ya, that's not God heart- that's mans.

webmdave said...

"ya, that's not God heart- that's mans."

Eve, how do you know what God's heart is? Isn't the Bible supposed to be God's Word? The original poster clearly illustrated what God's Word says: women are to be second class citizens. Why didn't God say, "discuss important decisions in a civil manner with your spouse and come to a mutual agreement" or "educate your daughters in the same manner as your sons" or "husbands and wives should respect eachother equally"? This is because either a) as you admit the Bible was written by a patriarchal society and divine inspiration had nothing to do with it ot b) God wants women to be uneducated baby machines who rely soley on men to run their lives.

webmdave said...

I know this teaching is warped and disgusting. But, unless you were raised in an environment of systemic brainwashing, you can never understand how someone can fall for such nonsense. If you are born into it, you don't know any different. If you are raised to not think for yourself and to feel inferior, then you will be vulnerable to such degrading teaching. It's a scarey thing to think for one self after a lifetime of "indentured" servitude. For me, I realized just last year (I'm 45) that I have not been treated like an adult. That is common in conservative christian circles. I started asserting myself, and thinking for myslef. And, like Dave said, the guys have a rather tough act to follow, as well!

webmdave said...

Yeah, this stuff is sickening. And I have only just now seen how twisted it is because my whole life I saw my mom living and preaching the submissive wife role. She even submits to her husband despite the fact that she is well aware that he is psychologically unhealthy to an extreme. She lets him drag them down crazy, ridiculous roads b/c she is trusting God's will to come through even through a crazy man. She does talk to him respectfully, quietly and in private when she believes him to be in the wrong but then she turns it over to him and to God. She takes comfort and joy in thinking she is doing the right thing. She then turns around and teaches the 100's of women that come into her church's women's ministry to do the same.
Wow, really, really unhealthy, twisted thinking and living.

webmdave said...

Yeah, this stuff is sickening. And I have only just now seen how twisted it is because my whole life I saw my mom living and preaching the submissive wife role. She even submits to her husband despite the fact that she is well aware that he is psychologically unhealthy to an extreme. She lets him drag them down crazy, ridiculous roads b/c she is trusting God's will to come through even through a crazy man. She does talk to him respectfully, quietly and in private when she believes him to be in the wrong but then she turns it over to him and to God. She takes comfort and joy in thinking she is doing the right thing. She then turns around and teaches the 100's of women that come into her church's women's ministry to do the same.
Wow, really, really unhealthy, twisted thinking and living.

webmdave said...

Pineapple,

You took the words right out of my mouth :)

The way I see it, if there is a god and he's in-control of his pet humans, and the bible is his book to us, then it's a 1 or 0 choice.

Cherry picking the bible can't be what the bible god had in mind when he had his robot-sheep write it.

Of course, xtians like Eve will never understand this huge problem

ATF

webmdave said...

After re-reading Eve's post, i think you guys may have misjudged her, though i admit she was not completely clear. She didn't sound like a committed Xtian to me, though, and her explanation for why women were required to stay and the back and be quiet in Corinthians made sense without sounding like she condoned the practice. I got the feeling she was either a recent Xtian and still hanging on to some old rationalizations or on the fence and just needing a little push to come to her senses.

Where are you Eve? Don't you want to come back, defend yourself and make your views clear?

webmdave said...

After re-reading Eve's post, i think you guys may have misjudged her, though i admit she was not completely clear. She didn't sound like a committed Xtian to me, though, and her explanation for why women were required to stay and the back and be quiet in Corinthians made sense without sounding like she condoned the practice. I got the feeling she was either a recent Xtian and still hanging on to some old rationalizations or on the fence and just needing a little push to come to her senses.

Where are you Eve? Don't you want to come back, defend yourself and make your views clear?

webmdave said...

PotteryChick, if all we get is garbage in just like our PCs we can only get garbage out. You are SO right about "If you are born into it, you don't know any different." Parents and the rest of the "tribe" do a great deal of programming for those new little "baby" computers.

Congratulations on taking ownership and doing a little new programming so you can function better and get better solutions.

Tumalo,if your dad were drunk would your mom submit to the way he drove the car and just "trust God" because he is the male in the home? I bet she would allow nature to override the Good Book with Good Sense at that point. Why not before he gets into the car if his behavior leads in stupid ways that will crash in other ways? Submission is for "subjects" the SUB-species that allows elites to LORD.

A bully can be found on every playground but no one bully can whip all the kids at once. Oh, that must be the reasoning behind that there second amendment. Force in the hands of one brings submission from the whole playground. "God's will" may back the strongest noble, man, or army every time but when a popular movement creates a larger force God changes his mind at that very minute for some strange reason. .

Political , military and police power will win the day in the short run every time but it is not the stable foundation of justice. Each individual and nation can recognize a greedy selfish bully and at the right moment that evil dude or that political system on the world scale is going down. The demise of the wicked ruler is always followed with a cheer and a party among the common people. The wicked witch (bastard) is dead! It can feel almost as good to just escape over a Berlin Wall or whatever and leave their horrible kingdom. What was that country song D-I-V-O-R-C-E?

No system of government in home, church or nation that leaves the common people in misery is moral no matter the theory or theology behind it . The facts expose that theory as a scam and its professors as shysters, crooks, and scam artists. No amount of crowns, titles, fancy robes and ceremonies can give legitimacy to a bully any place in civilization. The Bible, king, priest,president, chairman, elders and parents may endorse slavery but its horror is right before the individuals who will just use their eyes and the common sense "God gave a goose". Proper feminism is simply a just desire by women to be treated as equals but not as superiors of any other human being. That is nothing more than a desire for justice which every human being knows is just.