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1/02/2010                                                                                       View Comments

Orignal Sin on Trial

by Gray

Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553): Adam and ...Image via Wikipedia

I am a former Christian and a lawyer. Soon after becoming a Christian, I struggled with the concept of original sin and its moral implications. According to Christian theology, man is born into this world with the stain of original sin – the sin committed by Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God’s direct command and ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The consequences of original sin are two-fold. First, man is doomed to spend the rest of eternity in Hell, unless he accepts Jesus as his savior. Second, man is a slave to a sinful nature that he cannot escape during his lifetime, although accepting Jesus is supposed to curb the "lusts of the flesh".

Here is my question: Would the charge of original sin and the imposition of the sentence of death on all people born after Adam and Eve stand up in an American Court? I think this question is a pivotal one, because the foundation for the need of a savior in Christian theology is based on original sin. I have explored this question with many Christians and I have never gotten a satisfactory response. Most Christians say that God is God and He can do what He wants with us because we are His creation. But, is that an acceptable answer? Others will say to me, “Well, God’s ways are not ours, so we have to believe that He is just and moral in charging us with original sin.” Still, others will say, “Well, no matter who was in Adam and Eve’s shoes, they would have disobeyed God, so we all are guilty.”

I will address each of those popular responses later, but first I want to explore the concept of original sin within the context of our criminal justice system. When a person commits a crime, the prosecutors will usually submit their evidence of the crime to a Grand Jury, who will weigh the evidence, including testimony from witnesses and investigators and then either hand down and indictment against the suspect, or refuse an indictment. If an indictment is handed down, the accused is formally charged with the crime and then arraigned in court. There, he can plead “guilty” and go straight to sentencing or plead “not guilty” and demand a trial. If he is convicted and there are no accomplices, then he and he alone bears the full burden of guilt. He is sentenced to a punishment, whether it be jail time or death and no one else shares the punishment.

If you apply the facts of God’s case against mankind in the doctrine of original sin to our criminal justice system, you can immediately see that it does not fit. According to the doctrine of original sin, God holds everyone born after Adam and Eve wholly responsible for Adam and Eve's sin. He punished Adam and Eve and He also punished all of their progeny. Is that just? Imagine if we held the children of a murderer responsible for his crime and punished his children the same way we punished him. What would we say about a system of justice like that? First of all, from a legal standpoint, the prosecutor in our American criminal justice system would never get the indictment against the children of a murderer, unless they were involved in the murder in some way. Secondly, from a moral standpoint, it would be considered barbaric and inhumane to punish the children of a murderer, if they had nothing to do with the crime itself.

But Christians refuse to look at the doctrine of original sin through the lens of justice and fairness. Why is that? Why can’t they see the glaring moral implications of holding everyone responsible for the sins of two people? As I said above, the most popular answer that I get in response to my objection to original sin is, “God is God and He can do what He wants to us, since we are His creation.” This is exactly what the Apostle Paul said to similar criticism of the concept of Predestination in Romans, chapter 9. When Paul's controversial doctrine of Predestination was challenged, Paul replied, "Does the clay pot ask the potter, 'Why did you make me this way?'" I have always wanted to respond to Paul, "If the clay pot could talkm you better bet it would ask, why".

Back to my point about the "God is God" response: Is God above acting moral? Can He circumvent the very moral laws that He imposes on us? I have a huge problem with that. It is one thing if you create an inanimate object, like a clay pot and then decide to destroy it because you do not like it. It is another thing if you create an independent being, with a conscience and emotions and then decide to destroy it because you do not like it. It seems very hypocritical that God would be able to treat us differently than He commands us to treat one another. I doubt if executing the children of a murderer for the crime committed by their father would be considered just under any circumstances. After all, isn't our system of justice is derived from the concepts taught in the Bible?

The next response I always get to my objection to original sin follows the one I just talked about above. Christians will say, “Well God’s ways are not our ways and we just have to believe that He is just and moral in charging us with original sin.” And I have to hand it to them, there are specific verses in the Bible that support their response to my objection. However, do you really believe that there is some hidden moral justification for original sin that only God knows about? And even if there is, why would He withhold that from us? I challenge anyone reading this to come up with a valid, moral justification for holding the children of a murderer responsible for their father’s crime. You cannot do it. Trust me, I have tried.

Another response I get from Christians to my objection to original sin is this: “Well, no matter who was in Adam and Eve’s shoes, they would have done the same thing, so we all are guilty.” Think about that response for a minute. If no one could have resisted the fruit, then that means we lack free will, which raises even more questions of fairness and morality. If no one could have said to the serpent, “No, I think I will just eat something else”, then that means God predestined the fall of man. How could God hold us responsible for doing something that we are unable to resist doing? Believe it or not, the Apostle Paul addressed this very question in the same chapter 9 in the Book of Romans.

Paul was asked by someone listening to his Predestination sermon, “Who can resist God’s will?” In other words, the person was asking how is God just in punishing us for doing what He willed us to do. And do you know that all Paul could muster in response to that very thoughtful and compelling question was, “Who are you, O’ man to question the motives of God?” That was it. I call that the “Wizard of Oz” response to the moral objection to Predestination. “Who are you to question the great and mighty Oz”, said the Oz to Dorothy and her companions. Paul’s response is no response, in my opinion. Of course it is wrong for God to hold someone responsible for something that He willed them to do.

Original sin makes a mockery of our concept of justice and fairness and would never pass muster with us, if it was a rule that we enforced in our criminal justice system. But for some reason, God gets a pass and Christians just accept that God can do what He wants, even if it means doing something that violates His own concept of morality. Christians approach original sin from a biased point of view – God gets the benefit of the doubt. But at some point, you have to draw a line and begin to question foundational issues like original sin. I understand that there is room to argue over things like the Immaculate Conception, women in the pulpit, faith versus works, and other issues that do not implicate basic moral principles. But when the very foundation upon which a faith like Christianity is based –original sin – implicates those principles, you cannot just ignore it and give the Maker of the faith a pass. For if you do, then the faith itself becomes meaningless.



117 comments:

webmdave said...

I'm wondering if Dave should show you to the door.

webmdave said...

As a thinking and independent adult, I can firmly say that my loving and yes, blood-stained savior is someday going to stand on this earth that He created again and even ex-christians will worship him on that day.

Now why the hell would I want to worship someone who is stained with blood? I would get them medical attention if it was their blood or call the police if it was not. What a morbid god/Christ concept, but go ahead and dream on, because it will never happen. I really don't call such concepts loving at all, but YOUR fantasy.

if you are offended then it's because the conscience that God lovingly created in you is warning you of the danger that lies ahead. Take heed!!

Bullsh** Such a silly and morbid concept came purely from the human mind, not some badly written fictional crap. Maybe aureliom is right, you need to get out of here, regardless if you think you have the right to be here. Such ignorance of the human is ridiculous. Try learning some science and other religions before spouting total stupidity and lies.

webmdave said...

Summerbreeze, I think his service drove him to insanity. It is a shame our gov. doesn't care for its soldiers better than that.

webmdave said...

Only as long as our patience holds...

webmdave said...

Again, you make absolutely no sense. I don't know how boomSlang was able to reply to you.

webmdave said...

Fossil records of Noah's Ark?

Now that's comical!

webmdave said...

There is NO fossil record of any freaking Ark. I don't know where you get your knowledge, but what you say is ridiculously WRONG.

webmdave said...

I agree, Dave. So um... When are you going to show this nutter the door?

webmdave said...

I served my country for 20 years! And, for most of that time I was a sold-out, evangelical, Bible-believing, witnessing fool for Christ.

Things change.

Being male and full grown with children is no guarantee of escaping magical, mythological or silly thinking.

webmdave said...

Sean,

Do you really believe that nothing died prior to this Adam and Eve eating that fruit? Really? Nothing died? Not even plants?

Nothing?

Think about it.

webmdave said...

These dubious "facts" of yours. Did any of them originate from reputable scientists? Or, did all of these "facts" originate from Christian apologists?

Would you accept the words of scientists as authoritative in a discussion about theology? If not, then why would you go to theological apologists to validate the findings of scientists?

webmdave said...

I have a question for you, my young padawan. Do you have any testable evidence that proves the existence of not just any god, but specifically your god?

webmdave said...

Since you admit, Sean, that you have no idea "HOW" anything was created, then your belief that "GOD DID IT" is the same as "I DON'T KNOW."

I don't know is an honest admission that encourages us to search for answers. GOD DID IT is religious dogmatism which shuts down all inquiry, because "No one can ever understand god."

If humankind was still confined to religious dogmatism, there would be no medicine, no science, no understanding of simple thunder and lightning. In fact, if we were to rely on religious dogmatism for our answers in life, we'd still be living in the Dark Ages.

Think about it.

webmdave said...

I wouldn't disrespect the messenger, but the concept itself of believing that all humans are born "sinners" and can only escape the fires of hell by paying homage to an invisible being who probably doesn't exist is absolutely ridiculous and I'm amazed that any intelligent, freethinking adult can begin to consider that it's more than a fairy story.

God sends his one and only son down to Earth from heaven into the womb of a young woman who gives birth to a baby who grows up and is crucified because Adam and Eve did what is an entirely natural act to maintain the species, then the son(who is actually the father anyway, some think the mother, also)after he is dead, comes back to life and zooms back up to heaven saying, "I'll be back!" but 2000 years on it still hasn't happened.

It's an old story, used by the Egyptians, Persians and others(research Mithra). It's just a story, nothing more.

So what about the 4.6 billion people on the planet who've never heard of the Christian god? Wouldn't an all-loving god have wanted the whole World, all of his children to know about it or is he happy for 4.6 billion people to go to hell without getting a chance to redeem themselves?

Does any of it make any sense whatsoever to you? It doesn't to me!

webmdave said...

The fossil record I'm referring to are the millions of sea creatures found in the mountains of every country on the planet. Or do you also dispute that? These fossils were not carried up there by hand so how do you suppose they got there? This should be interesting...

webmdave said...

The rise of the earths crust due to tectonic activity over millions of years perhaps?

webmdave said...

Thank you Juan Marco. You beat me to it.

webmdave said...

Why not let him hold his breath? I doubt it would damage him anymore than he is.

webmdave said...

Really, some basic science books would be a good place for you to start your research.

webmdave said...

Yes, I do, Sean, because you don't quite have any of the scientific facts straight. In fact, I haven't seen any evidence of actual facts. Be that as it may, all those fossils does not point to an ark. All it points to are various animals that lived and died millions of years ago, but not Noah's Ark. Thus, you don't know a damn thing about science if you try to throw in a fictional ark.

webmdave said...

Balderdash Sean, unmitigated balderdash, and you know it.

To sin requires a knowledge of good and evil, a knowledge which neither Adam not Eve had before eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge thereof.

The fact still is that the first sin recorded after creation was committed by god, who still will not own up to it.

Peace,

David

webmdave said...

lol It does sound like a horror movie sequel. Good one, boomSlang. :)

webmdave said...

Texas does it. What a very xtian state.

webmdave said...

Wikipedia is from the minds of man... just like the bible. Therefore, it is not always accurate, unlike the bible, which never is. oh excuse me, I suppose sometimes it is. Thou shalt not kill. Good thing we have a book to let us know it is wrong to take another's life. Of course, for the purpose of the bible, Thou shalt not kill meant thou shalt not kill other Hebrew males. Your children or women or slaves, being your property, were fair game, as were enemies of the Hebrews.

webmdave said...

I love that last line... thats how i feel and xtians fail to realize, even if their god DOES exist, it would be amoral to worship him.

webmdave said...

Ha Ha... good one, and oh so true.

webmdave said...

Wow. I suppose all of this was written down on gilded pages in english before any of those events occurred. And of course none of the later translators would have any vested interest in changing some of the facts so as to appear to fit prophesy... like Jesus, who said he was from Nazareth, being said to born in Bethlehem, because the old testament said a savior would be born there.

webmdave said...

Mriana is correct - you may as well be speaking gibberish.

You know what, Sean? You don't get to use that argument. You don't get to pull out the translation card, because when these texts are read in their original languages, by scholars who understand them in their nuanced complexity, and who don't have a theological agenda - they don't come anywhere close to meaning what you think they mean.

This whole business of "purity" and of God being unable to stand the presence of sin has been promulgated from day one by damaged, fragmented personalities, and you've just bought right into it because your self-esteem is in the same place. It's as simple as that.

webmdave said...

seansqrl,

Your attempt to defend Noah's Ark through fossil evidence is beyond comical. John Woodmorappe (whoever he really is) is a nut.

According to Christian tradition, the story of Noah's Ark was believed to have taken place sometime within the last 4,000 or so years (approximate). It is obvious to any credible anthropologist that civilizations in the areas of present day Egypt, China, Mesoamerica and Mesopotamia existed longer ago than that. Funny, those civilizations were not wiped out and eliminated by a global flood.

The ICR is an absolute joke. Let them offer their evidence to the broad scientific community for peer review. Let's see how much credibility they have... and PLEASE don't tell us that Satan is blinding the minds of scientists who refute ICR claims.

You have zero credibility. I am amazed webmdave hasn't pulled the plug on you.

webmdave said...

webmdave,

Any chance you might pull the plug on this nut and clean his posts out? I appreciate all you do for this forum. This person is nuts.

webmdave said...

Thanks, BP. :)

webmdave said...

Sean the Squirrely Troll: "As a thinking and independent adult..."

Heeheeheeheehee! Já, riiight...

"...I can firmly say that my loving and yes, blood-stained savior is someday going to stand on this earth that He created again and even ex-christians will worship him on that day."

No, Sean. You will *never* see your alleged saviour. At the end of your life, you will simply die, forget everything you ever thought, and automatically become an ex-Christian.

There is no evidence for your god, no evidence for life after death, and no evidence for either heaven or hell.

Furthermore, if 'Jesus' ever existed he's no more than a bunch of broken bones in a mass grave outside Jerusalem... Which is where the Romans would have dumped the body after it had hung and rotted on the cross, and after the carrion birds had had their fill of his ordinary and almost certainly non-resurrecting flesh.

And you, Sean, are a superstitious, arrogant intruder who has forfeited all respect here. I, Myself, have neither need nor desire for your ridiculous and blood-drenched superstition.

May you lose your faith and never regain it, and may each and every one of your children, grandchildren and other descendants in perpetuity also escape Christianity in ample time to live long and prosperous lives of reason.

webmdave said...

All you said is true, but it is impossible to get through to a closed mind. Some are incapable of recognizing and acknowledging the truth when confronted with it

webmdave said...

I assume you believe the evolution theory. Is that a correct assumption? If so, I'd like to recommend some research for you. Check out www.icr.org.

seansqrl, the Institute for Creationist Research is a group that says the earth is 6000 years old in addition to claiming that evolution is not true. I was wondering if you could name just one prominent non-religious scientist or science organization that claims the same. I highly doubt you will be able to.

If there are other scientists that critically examine our world and then conclude it is just 6000 years old, and they also do not have any preconceived assumptions (ie. a religious worldview), it would give credence to the claims of ICR. Why? Because it would show that other scientists, regardless of their background, religion, place of birth, etc. have examined the data and evidence and have come to the same conclusions. One of the important characteristics of science is that it is based on empirical evidence: someone living on the other side of the world will come to the same conclusions as I do after performing the same test or experiment and examining the same data.

The "scientists" at ICR, in addition to any other young earth creationist group, are not interested in the search for scientific truth. They are only interested in data and arguments that support their already preconceived notions about the world. What these people do cannot classify as science.

webmdave said...

You have absolutely NO idea of what you're talking about. You know nothing about evolution other than the parodies you've heard from your pastor and the books of apologetics you've read, written by people as clueless as you are.

This troll has moved beyond tiresome to downright annoying. I second the motion to ban him - and kick him down the stairs when you show him the door. Perhaps he'll land on his head (although I suppose that wouldn't do him any real damage).

webmdave said...

I'll add to that, if I may (because I'm a mean-spirited bastard and I've just had Christians up to here, as of late) -

Sean, may you live to see your children reject everything you hold most dear.

webmdave said...

John Woodmorappe: http://www.rae.org/johnw.htm

webmdave said...

In Isaiah 44 and 45 God speaks about Cyrus(by name!) who would be used by Him to destroy Babylon and command that Jerusalem be rebuilt; this very detailed prophesy was made 150 years before Cyrus, the leader of the Medo/Persian empire, was even born--180 years before any of the acts were performed--and 80 years before Israel were taken into exile. Are you really a thinker? Think about that. It's historically documented more than our own existence.

No, it isn't. To the contrary - legitimate Biblical scholars, who, unlike your evangelical hacks, don't spend their lives attempting to shore up all the holes in the Bible, agree that those "predictions" were written after the fact. It's easy to get it right when you're writing it after the event has happened!

For FSM's sake, are you capable of expressing any thought, any idea that your pastor hasn't pulled out of his ass?

Can we PLEASE lose this cretin?

webmdave said...

Here's your answer, moron: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC364.html

webmdave said...

Religion will tend to do that to a person.

webmdave said...

cipher,

Thanks for the post. I am familiar with the writings of "John Woodmorappe" and his attempts to defend Creationism and the story of Noah's Ark etc. The reason I added the following comment is that "John Woodmorappe" is not his real name. "John Woodmorappe" is a pen name for someone. I don't know who that someone really is. Whoever "John Woodmorappe" is, he's a nut.


"John Woodmorappe (whoever he really is) is a nut".

webmdave said...

Thanks!

webmdave said...

I'm sorry sir, but you are a fu(king moron!!!

Read an evolutionary geology book. Hey, guess what else....the Sahara Desert was a lush tropical place on earth for a few million years. The fossil record confirms it!

Now if your Creationist 'scientists' ever produce the remains of the Ark and it matches up with the origianl dimensions (the Ark being twice as wide as it is long and not near large enough to carry even a minute portion of the land dwelling animals [especially the dinosaurs that creationists say lived along side of man]) and carbon dates to about 5 thousand years ago, etc., etc.......then you can claim they have some concrete evidence.

You are very simple minded....and I don't mean that in a good way, e.a. like the scripture...."except ye become as a little child ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." I mean that you are very dull in your mental faculties and your ability to think and reason are pathetically immature and stunted.

You can't even read and understand the disclaimer. You truly do not belong here.

Take a hike, Fu(tard!

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

webmdave said...

"disclaimer checked...twice now. Yes, I have every right to be here."

Hmmmphf....speaks volumes about your reading comprehension skills.

First and foremost:

"The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind."

Perhaps we ExC members should storm your church's pulpit next Sunday giving OUR testimonies. You have intruded here long enough. Go away.

BP

webmdave said...

I thought a candidate must be senile prior to being selected as pope.

webmdave said...

Sean ,you are the results of 6000yrs of creational evolution ,you are the supreme example of religious dogma. Please do not procreate!!!

webmdave said...

Noah's Ark is real eh? A boat 300 cubits (450 ft) long, 50 cubits (75ft) wide, and 30 cubits (45 ft) tall managed to fit two of every animal on the planet? hmmm.... you do realize that there are millions of terrestrial animal species in the world, correct? The idea that any intelligent person over the age of 9 would actually believe this Ark baloney is scary. If your alleged "god" gave you a brain, why do you refuse to use it? All these years I thought they served wine or grape juice at communion, but apparently its just kool aid. When you decide to stop drinking it, you might want to research Occam's razor and think about it.

webmdave said...

How do you suppose Hawaii came to exist? gawd musta put it right where it is as it is...... oh wait. Read a farking book dude!

webmdave said...

That is a pretty sad ship! It's smaller than most ships made today. It would be a midget compared to the Titanic.

webmdave said...

great point Ayhwh. the xtians seem to overlook the TWO creation stories right there in Genesis.... also overlooked is the Nod problem. These robotic believers believe Adam and Eve were really the the first two people.... perhaps they should read their own sacred bibles more closely... There is Adam, then Eve, then they have two sons, one of those sons kills the other and is banished to walk the Earth. He asks God to mark him so he will not be murdered. BY WHOM!!!??? He goes off to the land of Nod and marries a woman. WHERE IS NOD? WHERE DID THIS WOMAN AND HER PEOPLE COME FROM!?? If you are going to waste your life believing B.S. at least understand the B.S.

webmdave said...

Exactly. And i hardly think the Titanic could've held even one of every animal on Earth. and its curious that there are many animals that are only found in certain places (say Australia), yet they all supposedly restarted in the middle east a few thousand years ago.

webmdave said...

No, the Titanic could have held one of each. If I remember correctly, when it went down, it was book solid with humans and maybe some pets.

webmdave said...

That's "could NOT" have held. I left out not. :(

webmdave said...

Hey, I read "The Book of Genesis" illustrated by R. Crumb, and, even though I had read it several times before, the illustrations helped to hold my interest and help me keep things straight. I also wondered where Cain got a wife. Nobody could explain this to me when I was a kid, either.

This book has some wonderful insights in the back. I only had it for a two-week period, but I am either going to have to buy it or check it out again (hate to buy religious material, even if it is R. Crumb-illustrated.) I would recommend all christians read it, including the author's notes at the end.

webmdave said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Woodmorappe

webmdave said...

" the act of eating the forbidden fruit which they knew was forbidden--was sin. The very act of eating it was sin...this is when sin entered in and not after."

ERGO..

They did not know it was sine before they ate the fruit but afterwards!

If they do not know it is sin, and you must remember they were innocent children, then it may not be counted as sin against them.

Did you punish your children when they did not know what they were doing was wrong? Of course you did not but then, as a human being, you have a sense of justice which your god lacks.

Reason's Greetings,

David

webmdave said...

People, there is absolutely no getting through to someone like Sean; he has all of his defense mechanisms firmly in place. I suggest that a lot of it has to do with the mindset and background of people whom the military is recruiting these days, and the coercion and "brainwashing" that goes on within its ranks.

I suggest walking away (I also reiterate my support of the motion to ban, but that's Dave's decision). Nothing is to be accomplished here.

webmdave said...

Yes there is fossilization of sea life on the tops of mountains, but you are ignorant of the reason why it is there.

The reason why we find sea life fossils on the tops of mountains is because the ground that is making up the mountains used to be the sea floor. When the mountains were formed by two plates smashing into each other all the fossils lifted to the mountain top as well.

http://external.oneonta.edu/hessf77/students/sc...

"Folded Mountains are the most common type of mountain. They are created by tectonic plates pushing against each other. This creates intense pressure. Therefore, the only direction for these mountains to move is up. When two plates move away from each other, they create a rift valley in between them. Sometimes, if plates collide, one will force the other under itself. This is another way that folded mountains occur."

webmdave said...

See my earlier comment. We already know how they got to the tops of mountains.

webmdave said...

He's definitely not a scientist. Seems to me, he's a fundie who's trying to prove that unicorns exist.

webmdave said...

The very act of eating it was sin

Then don't eat. That way you won't be sinning. Of course, there is a problem with this... You will die of starvation. That too is a sin. So you now have a catch-22 on your hands.

webmdave said...

It seems like there is the road that we went down which leads to cracking of the defensive walls. Brought about by constant doubting and thinking of the walls.

Others seem to keep adding layers to the defense mechanisms. So much so, that even the tiniest fact cannot get through to them.

webmdave said...

Sean,

There was no moral rule to violate at the moment the fruit was eaten, for morality presupposes knowing what is right and what is wrong - the knowledge of good and evil - which, until they had eaten the fruit of the three of the knowledge of good and evil, neither Adam nor Eve possessed.

Note to sefl: stop banging you head on this wall David. You know you will only have to live with the echo in your cranium for a week or so.

webmdave said...

I agree.

His brain is unlikely to notice or display any effects of oxygen deprivation.

webmdave said...

Seansqrl: "From my understanding, God is Holy and pure and dwells in unapproachable light according to scripture... So, man must have been sin-free and able to be in the presence of a holy and perfect God, obviously otherwise he couldn't have walked with Him as Adam did."

Therefore

(and I will shout here in the vain hope that some of it will register with Sean and his ilk)

ADAM WAS NOT ABLE TO HAVE COMMITTED A SIN BY EATING THE FRUIT. IF HE WAS WITHOUT SIN, EATING THE FRUIT WAS NO SIN AND THE STORY IS EXPOSED NOT ONLY AS A MYTH BUT AS A PILE OF LOGICAL REJECTA ON THE DEBATING FLOOR!

Reason's Greetings,

David

webmdave said...

OK,

So you have written down the noises you made when speaking in tongues and posted them here. Could you please arrange for someone with the gift of interpretation to translate them into rational-speak?

webmdave said...

Precisely.

webmdave said...

Ayhwh -

Remember, FACTS don't matter, only FAITH matters! LOL (:D

That is why I contend that Faith is a four-letter word. I think it is the absolute worst concept ever created by human kind.

FAITH = The root of all evil

Just my opinion,

XPD

webmdave said...

Yes, Sean, the Noah's ark story is indeed absurd. Do you really believe all the animal species on earth lived within walking distance of Noah's house? And after the flood subsided, how do you suppose Noah and family got the polar bears back to the polar region, the kangaroos back to Australia, the penquins back to Antarctica, etc. Those animal species are found nowhere else on earth. Have you ever actually thought about this?

webmdave said...

Thanks for the note. I have been aware of Woodmorappe for some time. His real identity was obscured for some time. I have read a bit of his defense of Noah's Ark. I think the guy is delusional to an alarming degree.

The ICR is a joke. I believe they wanted to be able to confer actual degrees on "scientists". They are proponents of "Intelligent Design" which is hokum disguised as "science".

Those are scary people. They want to ignore overwhelming scientific data in defense of dogma.

webmdave said...

He is not allowed to think. If he thinks, the dabil (i.e. the Devil) might cloud his mind. He must do what mother church tells him to do. Don't think. Pray. Give money. Give more money. Increase your personal reward in Heaven by giving more money.

webmdave said...

How is it FREE will when the use of it costs you your life?

webmdave said...

Jackson,

You will be there with us, for the sin of not having used the brain god gave you for anything more productive than cooling your blood!

webmdave said...

Tell me it's not so!

I was so sure that we could find it, somewhere under the earth, and tap it to solve the world's energy shortage.

Now, that would be a worthwhile goal to use the energies of the creation "scientists" more productively.

webmdave said...

I love that you sent him to a factual site created by a young man who looks to be about 12 or 13. Sean, even children know how the fossils got to be on the tops of mountains! This kid made a simple, easy-to-understand site for other kids. I suggest you begin your studies there.

webmdave said...

...and sue you for the mental and emotional abuse you have committed on them as they grew up!

webmdave said...

Lisa,

You know the "god helps those who help themselves" BS the believers pull on you when they realise god has, yet again, failed to keep his promises?

As you know, it doesn't exist in the wholly babble. It is, in fact, the last line of one os Aesop's fables. Can't remember which one though.

As you say, the fables make some sense.

webmdave said...

"Hercules and the Waggoner:

A man was driving a heavy cart that got bogged down in the mud, so he prayed to Hercules to get him out of the mud. Hercules came down and told him to stop praying and put his shoulder to the wheel. "The gods help those who help themselves."

So, christians are quoting "pagans" and proclaiming it to be biblical. typical.

webmdave said...

I'll agree with you there. What else but religion requires that we believe unconditionally no matter what? Not even love, because we know when someone loves us and when we love him/her (I'm talking actual, real people here). And we can tell if that love changes.

Not so with god.

webmdave said...

WizenedSage & Pious Ted, very good points.

Another thing that cracks me up about the ark is the mere thought of EVERY dinosaur species aboard also ! Recently there was a new dinosaur species discovered in Patagonia called " Argentinosaurus " which was 110 feet long and over 100 tons.
Two of those aboard must have created a lot of mischief, huh?

webmdave said...

Just because someone believes something, doesn't make it true.

The answer to all of this is; it's made up.

The bible god shoots himself in the foot constantly if he really is the inspiration behind that book. He knows it all, but has to have Jesus come to save everyone, even AFTER he tells people how to get saved.

Pure rubbish. I'd rather believe in Santa. At least he gives you a new shot each year. Freddy

webmdave said...

Thanks Lisa. I guessed you would know.

;o))

webmdave said...

Up yours, troll.

webmdave said...

2 of every dinosaur...could you imagine the big pile of poop? ROFL.

webmdave said...

Renee,

Reminds me of an old Bill Cosby routine called "Noah". If you haven't heard it, it is the LORD speaking to Noah and telling him to build an ark and load two of every animal, etc. and Noah's reaction to these orders. Pretty funny. Pretty blasphemous at the time, I would think.

webmdave said...

Religion is, by its very character, immoral and unjust, because it provides its adherents with ideological tools that function as near-impervious barriers to critical inquiry. Thus shielded, the minds of religionists have the ideal environment for the maintenance of their dogma, and with impunity proceed to make the mental twists and turns necessary to continue believing their actions are moral, when they all too often are not.

webmdave said...

Let us hope and work (not pray, mind you) so that people like Sean not acquire even more political power in our republic. The historical process can regress as well as progress. America can do without its version of Europe's religious wars of the Reformation.

webmdave said...

Recently there was a new dinosaur species discovered in Patagonia called " Argentinosaurus " which was 110 feet long and over 100 tons. Two of those aboard must have created a lot of mischief, huh?

I think they're divided on this matter. Some think they were killed in the flood (which invalidates the Bible's assertion that Noah included two of every unclean and seven of every clean species - although how he distinguished between them before the dietary laws were given at Sinai, I have no idea), and some think at least some of them were saved and were killed off later by humans, hence the tales of "dragons".

There are fundies who've done mathematical gymnastics and arrived at "proof" that Noah could have fit one of every "kind" (their fictitious precursor to species) on the ark, as long as they didn't move around too much. I imagine God gave them some sort of magical Valium.

In that vein, I even came across a reference to one who (as a lot of them do, apparently) believes that hell is in the center of the earth, and did the requisite math to demonstrate that it's actually physically possible to fit all of the billions of souls who have ever lived in there, if each is confined to a space of a few cubic feet. Basically, he thinks God stacks them up, lights them on fire and walks away.

One woman whose website I stumbled upon handles it a different way - she says the molten core of the Earth grows to accommodate all of the millions of souls who are rushing in there daily, and is only a few miles beneath the surface, now - and that scientists are aware of it. They despise science, yet they're always ready to tell you that there's "scientific proof" of whatever batshit insane thing they believe.

These people are clinically insane. How anyone can defend their right to vote or hold public office is beyond me.

webmdave said...

Since exiting xtianity, I've been collecting "inspirational" quotes that I find encouraging. These are my favorites regarding Adam and Eve and the whole Original Sin mythos:

"What I cannot help wishing is that Adam and Eve had been postponed, and Martin Luther and Joan of Arc put in their place -- that splendid pair equipped with temperaments not made of butter, but of asbestos. By neither sugary persuasions nor by hell fire could the serpent have beguiled them to eat the apple."
- Mark Twain

"The mistake was in forbidding the serpent [as food]; then Adam and Eve would have eaten the serpent."
- Mark Twain

"Can we return to the Garden of Eden? Well, if we returned completely, if we entered again into the complete state of innocence, we would no longer have the knowledge to prevent us from eating the apple again. And so again we would fall out of grace. It seems, therefore, that to regard the Garden of Eden, the state of innocence, as the perfect state is simply a mistake. It has the obvious imperfection of being internally unstable and self-annihilating."
- Raymond Smullyan, "The Fruit of Knowledge," This Book Needs No Title

webmdave said...

Ah! So I am not the only one.

I have a Word Doc called "Useless Sayings and Aphorisms" which grows regularly, particularly after visiting here and reading through the daily dose of wisdom to which we are always treated.

Peace,

David

webmdave said...

Seansqrl,
You're making me cry.

webmdave said...

....and/or laugh.

(I am such a flipflopper when it comes to religious whackos -- wavering back and forth, back and forth -- amusement, pity, horror...)

LOL
BP

webmdave said...

Seansqrl,
And one more thing ... If you're waiting for Jesus to return, I'm afraid you missed it. According to Jesus himself, it already happened about 2000 years ago.

Matthew 16:28 - Jesus says to his disciples, "There are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 24:33-34 - After prophesying a wide assortment of events including the second coming, Jesus said to his disciples, " . . . when you shall see all these things, know that it (the 2nd coming) is near, even at the door. This generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled." He was obviously referring to the contemporary generation.

Matthew 26:64 - When brought before Caiaphas, the Chief Priest, Jesus said to him, "I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man . . . coming on the clouds of heaven." According to this the second coming was to happen during Caiaphas' lifetime.

Sorry Sean, you missed it.

webmdave said...

Sean,
I'm going to assume that you're serious for a moment.

There are seashells on mountain tops because those mountain tops used to be at the bottom of the ocean. The sea floor was pushed up over millions of years due to tectonic plate movement. The Himalayas were formed by the Indian plate colliding with the Asian plate.

Those seashells that you were talking about are burried in layers of hardened silt several meters thick. That process takes millions of years, not the forty days and forty nights that the Bible claims.

Here's an article on plate tectonics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics

And, yes, scientists do agree that flood geology is in error
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

Happy reading

webmdave said...

Sean,
You're just taking the piss out of us now. You can't be serious!

webmdave said...

Of course, you realize that Noah didn't take Polar bears on the ark?

He took brown bears, and all the other species of bear evolved from them after the ark landed.

;o))

webmdave said...

No No! EVIL lution! I am sticking my fingers in my ears. LA LA LA LA LA

webmdave said...

Well of course I knew that! Whatcha think, I'm igrent? I wuz jist askin him...jeez.

webmdave said...

So this means he took our cousins, the Bonobos with him. :D Wonder what Noah looked like? A furry caveman?

webmdave said...

Wouldn't this be aviolation of the no bills of attainder requirement of the Constitution?

webmdave said...

i really enjoyed reading this. I

i must disagree with you on your opening sentence.
here's no such thing as a christian lawyer.

webmdave said...

Sean ,you are the results of 6000yrs of creational evolution ,you are the supreme example of religious dogma. Please do not procreate!!!

webmdave said...

I wouldn't disrespect the messenger, but the concept itself of believing that all humans are born "sinners" and can only escape the fires of hell by paying homage to an invisible being who probably doesn't exist is absolutely ridiculous and I'm amazed that any intelligent, freethinking adult can begin to consider that it's more than a fairy story.

God sends his one and only son down to Earth from heaven into the womb of a young woman who gives birth to a baby who grows up and is crucified because Adam and Eve did what is an entirely natural act to maintain the species, then the son(who is actually the father anyway, some think the mother, also)after he is dead, comes back to life and zooms back up to heaven saying, "I'll be back!" but 2000 years on it still hasn't happened.

It's an old story, used by the Egyptians, Persians and others(research Mithra). It's just a story, nothing more.

So what about the 4.6 billion people on the planet who've never heard of the Christian god? Wouldn't an all-loving god have wanted the whole World, all of his children to know about it or is he happy for 4.6 billion people to go to hell without getting a chance to redeem themselves?

Does any of it make any sense whatsoever to you? It doesn't to me!

webmdave said...

I thought a candidate must be senile prior to being selected as pope.

webmdave said...

"disclaimer checked...twice now. Yes, I have every right to be here."

Hmmmphf....speaks volumes about your reading comprehension skills. No wonder you're still stuck in those juvenile fairytale beliefs.

First and foremost:

"The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind."

Perhaps we ExC members should storm your church's pulpit next Sunday giving OUR testimonies. You have intruded here long enough. Go away.

BP

webmdave said...

Recently there was a new dinosaur species discovered in Patagonia called " Argentinosaurus " which was 110 feet long and over 100 tons. Two of those aboard must have created a lot of mischief, huh?

I think they're divided on this matter. Some think they were killed in the flood (which invalidates the Bible's assertion that Noah included two of every unclean and seven of every clean species - although how he distinguished between them before the dietary laws were given at Sinai, I have no idea), and some think at least some of them were saved and were killed off later by humans, hence the tales of "dragons".

There are fundies who've done mathematical gymnastics and arrived at "proof" that Noah could have fit one of every "kind" (their fictitious precursor to species) on the ark, as long as they didn't move around too much. I imagine God gave them some sort of magical Valium.

In that vein, I even came across a reference to one who (as a lot of them do, apparently) believes that hell is in the center of the earth, and did the requisite math to demonstrate that it's actually physically possible to fit all of the billions of souls who have ever lived in there, if each is confined to a space of a few cubic feet. Basically, he thinks God stacks them up, lights them on fire and walks away.

One woman whose website I stumbled upon handles it a different way - she says the molten core of the Earth grows to accommodate all of the millions of souls who are rushing in there daily, and is only a few miles beneath the surface, now - and that scientists are aware of it. They despise science, yet they're always ready to tell you that there's "scientific proof" of whatever batshit insane thing they believe.

These people are clinically insane. How anyone can defend their right to vote or hold public office is beyond me.

webmdave said...

Let us hope and work (not pray, mind you) so that people like Sean not acquire even more political power in our republic. The historical process can regress as well as progress. America can do without its version of Europe's religious wars of the Reformation.

webmdave said...

Religion is, by its very character, immoral and unjust, because it provides its adherents with ideological tools that function as near-impervious barriers to critical inquiry. Thus shielded, the minds of religionists have the ideal environment for the maintenance of their dogma, and with impunity proceed to make the mental twists and turns necessary to continue believing their actions are moral, when they all too often are not.

webmdave said...

I'm sorry sir, but you are a fu(king moron!!!

Read an evolutionary geology book. Hey, guess what else....the Sahara Desert was a lush tropical place on earth for a few million years. The fossil record confirms it!

Now if your Creationist 'scientists' ever produce the remains of the Ark and it matches up with the origianl dimensions (the Ark being twice as wide as it is long and not near large enough to carry even a minute portion of the land dwelling animals [especially the dinosaurs that creationists say lived along side of man]) and carbon dates to about 5 thousand years ago, etc., etc.......then you can claim they have some concrete evidence.

You are very simple minded....and I don't mean that in a good way, e.a. like the scripture...."except ye become as a little child ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." I mean that you are very dull in your mental faculties and your ability to think and reason are pathetically immature and stunted.

You can't even read and understand the disclaimer. You truly do not belong here.

Take a hike, Fu(tard!

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

webmdave said...

Seansqrl: "From my understanding, God is Holy and pure and dwells in unapproachable light according to scripture... So, man must have been sin-free and able to be in the presence of a holy and perfect God, obviously otherwise he couldn't have walked with Him as Adam did."

I find it simply incredible that you actually believe the above, Sean. It's all very well and fine to put stuff like that into a work of fiction, but to think that it's true boggles My imagination.

"...a spiritual stain... passed on to all of their offspring..."

Even more ludicrous. Suffice it to say that science has yet to discover a 'sin' allele in human DNA. (Disclaimer: My brother is a geneticist; and I, Myself work in the medical field and have a pretty darned good idea of how genetic inheritance actually works.)

"The only thing that is able to wash away sin is a perfect sacrifice. The blood of the perfect, unspotted Lamb of God. Ĵesus."

And this is the worst of the lot -- Pure fancy on the part of apologists and an absolutely ghastly way for a god to run a planet. Sorry, Sean; we don't do blood sacrifices around here.

webmdave said...

The fall of the angels always confused me.

I had been told that the reason that humans were "created" with free will was so that we could choose to worship and love god. I had been told that the angels worshiped god, but did not have the free will that humans were given, that is one of the reasons why we are more special, etc.

So how did Lucifer and the other demons fall from heaven if they did not have a free will, huh?

It is all a bunch of mumbo jumbo, of course. This is just another theological hole in Christian dogma that does not make sense to me.

Surprisingly the bible has hardly any specific details about angels and demons throughout it’s pages in light of some of the things that have been dreamt up about them. Like this kind of crap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

webmdave said...

Sean the Squirrely Troll: "As a thinking and independent adult..."

Heeheeheeheehee! Já, riiight...

"...I can firmly say that my loving and yes, blood-stained savior is someday going to stand on this earth that He created again and even ex-christians will worship him on that day."

No, Sean. You will *never* see your alleged saviour. At the end of your life, you will simply die, forget everything you ever thought, and automatically become an ex-Christian.

There is no evidence for your god, no evidence for life after death, and no evidence for either heaven or hell.

Furthermore, if 'Jesus' ever existed he's no more than a bunch of broken bones in a mass grave outside Jerusalem... Which is where the Romans would have dumped the body after it had hung and rotted on the cross, and after the carrion birds had had their fill of his ordinary and almost certainly non-resurrecting flesh.

And you, Sean, are a superstitious, arrogant intruder who has forfeited all respect here. I, Myself, have neither need nor desire for your ridiculous and blood-drenched superstition.

May you lose your faith and never regain it, and may each and every one of your children, grandchildren and other descendants in perpetuity also escape Christianity in ample time to live long and prosperous lives of reason.

webmdave said...

Thanks!

webmdave said...

Religion will tend to do that to a person.

webmdave said...

Here's your answer, moron: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC364.html

webmdave said...

In Isaiah 44 and 45 God speaks about Cyrus(by name!) who would be used by Him to destroy Babylon and command that Jerusalem be rebuilt; this very detailed prophesy was made 150 years before Cyrus, the leader of the Medo/Persian empire, was even born--180 years before any of the acts were performed--and 80 years before Israel were taken into exile. Are you really a thinker? Think about that. It's historically documented more than our own existence.

No, it isn't. To the contrary - legitimate Biblical scholars, who, unlike your evangelical hacks, don't spend their lives attempting to shore up all the holes in the Bible, agree that those "predictions" were written after the fact. It's easy to get it right when you're writing it after the event has happened!

For FSM's sake, are you capable of expressing any thought, any idea that your pastor hasn't pulled out of his ass?

Can we PLEASE lose this cretin?

webmdave said...

Renee,

Reminds me of an old Bill Cosby routine called "Noah". If you haven't heard it, it is the LORD speaking to Noah and telling him to build an ark and load two of every animal, etc. and Noah's reaction to these orders. Pretty funny. Pretty blasphemous at the time, I would think.