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1/16/2010                                                                                       View Comments

They Don’t SPEAK for ME!

by Bruce Gerencser of Restless Wanderings

They all use the same Bible.

They all believe the same Bible.

They all worship the same God.

They all believe the same about Jesus.

They all believe the same about man’s need of redemption.

They all believe in heaven and hell.

Whether they call themselves Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or Baptist they believe the same.

Whether they are a part of a denomination or independent they believe the same. Whether they are liberal, charismatic, conservative, or fundamentalist they believe the same.

Regardless of the name over the door every Christian Church essentially believe the same.

The cardinal doctrines are settled. God is God. Jesus is Jesus.The Bible is truth.
 
Yes, they differ in matters of eschatology, worship styles, music. social rules, government and politics BUT these matters are peripheral to the central truth of the Christian Church, Jesus the Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

Yet, a funny thing happens when a noted Christian pastor/bishop/elder/priest/para-church leader says something controversial…

Well, they don’t speak for me!

They don’t represent me.

They don’t speak for all Christians.

As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.

But they are.

So it with the Christian Church.

Try as they might to distance themselves from the crazy uncles in their midst, the uncles are still part of the family.  It is called the family of God. The blood washed band.

So stop trying to pretend that Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Jack Van Impe, Al Mohler, John Piper, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Creflo Dollar, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Joyce Meyers, Paula White, Jack Hyles, Bob Gray, Ernest Angley, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Jim Wallis,  the Pope, etal are NOT a part of your family.

TBN, GOD TV, and the Church channel represent you.

When Pat Robertson gives his latest prophecy he speaks for you.

When the Pope condemns condom use in Africa he speaks for you.

When Rick Warren condemns homosexuality he speaks for you.

As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.

But they are.

So it with the Christian Church.
When Al Mohler, John Piper and every Calvinist let the world know that God is in the killing, maiming and destruction business they speak for you.

When hate-mongering Christian Michele Bachmann waxes eloquently about God she speaks for you.

When James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Doug Phillips, Gary Demar, Rousas Rushdoony speak they speak for you.

When the Southern Baptists pass resolutions about homosexuality and women in the ministry they speak for you

When a politician invokes the name of the Christian God they speak for you.

When a priest molests a boy his actions reflect on you.

When Ted Haggard smokes crack and has sex with homosexual prostitutes his actions reflect on you.

When your pastor steals, lies, and sleeps around his actions reflect on you.

When a Christian nation on behalf of a Christian God bombs the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and

Pakistan and kills tens of thousands of people they do it in your name.

They are YOUR family.

They worship the same God as you. They read from the same Bible as you. They believe in the same Jesus as you do.

Object all you will about my unfair judgment…

The NON-Christian world sees things just like I have represented them here.

The FORMER-Christian  sees things just like I have represented them here. They see the Bible as the problem. They know to abandon the Bible is to abandon Christianity. They see no other solution to this problem but rejecting the Bible. It is the Bible that is at that foundation of all the speaking that goes on in God’s name. God has spoken! Where? In the Bible.

Every wild, bizarre, vile pronouncement that Christians make are propped up by the Bible.  Book, chapter, and verse.

What is your response to this post? Do you want to beat me up, in Jesus name of course? Do you want to straighten me out? Do you want to expose my biases, my errors in judgment? Do you want to attack me and tell me I have an axe to grind or that I am jaded, cynical, and hateful? (all true BTW)

Anything but deal with the main premise of this post.

252 comments:

1 – 200 of 252   Newer›   Newest»
webmdave said...

What a pity that this piece can't be read from every pulpit in the whole damn WORLD on Sunday morning-word for word.

webmdave said...

Ah well, I'm a Democrat and believe in the basics of what that party stands for. But not every Democrat in power speaks for me. Rod Blagojevich, even though I voted for him, turned out to be a narcissistic nut case. He doesn't speak for me. I disagreed with the president on sending more troops to Afghanistan. That choice did not represent me. I think gays and lesbians deserve every right that heterosexuals have, but my party and my president say the country is not ready for that yet. This decision does not reflect my ideals.

How is Christianity and the differences of opinion within any different than this?

webmdave said...

What is your response to this post?

Personally, Bruce, I want to give you a high five, hug, kiss, a "right on, brother" and raise a toast to your profound rant!

I can hardly wait for all the True Christians™ to come stampeding in. Where have they all been lately? It has been awfully quiet. Not a one defending Pat Robertson....? Surely they won't be able to resist the challenge of this great post.

BP

webmdave said...

I do have something to add about being a Christian or being a Democrat. If your church or party does something despicable, and you do not speak out against it; if they fail to do something that needs to be done, and you don't call them on it, THEN they speak for you.

webmdave said...

It is not different.

They may not reflect on individuals ideals . . . Much like many of the xians listed do not reflect on individual xians. But all the people listed in your comment reflect on the democratic party as a whole.

Just like those listed in the post reflet on christianity.

webmdave said...

Xians know this. And it is easy to see how much they hate it.

Why else would they try so hard to dissociate themselves from pat robertson and his ilk.

Watch 'em squirm.

webmdave said...

they would just say that the same applies to atheists because of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot and since they think they have the authority to label atheism a religion they think that their actions reflect on us.

webmdave said...

I think they speak for xians until removed from their platform.

Blaojevich was impeached and removed from office. Now he no longer speaks for democrats.

Let see the same thing happen to pat robertson or benny hinn.

webmdave said...

I don't know if they all believe in the same god, given their different concepts of God. However, you are right that they don't speak for any of us and they do a lot of things in the name of their god concept, very few of these things are good.

webmdave said...

You know, what's interesting is that 99.9% of xtians do not even understand what it means to be an atheist. I encounter this over and over as I go through life encountering people from my old fundie life. When I tell them that I am an atheist they look at me as if I've killed children or something. It's actually funny to watch the look on their faces. They try to tell me that being an atheist takes more faith, blah, blah, etc.......
Well, if one starts from the position they are coming from that there is a god then the non-believer's position may be one of faith that their god assertion is not true. It really is a matter of how one approaches the topic I guess.

Anyway, I grow tired of having to discuss the issue when I come across old fundie friends. I may just start telling them that I worship satan on a regular basis and we sacrifice children every saturday night and invite them over for "satanaic fellowship". That may be easier for them to accept then my atheism. LOL!!!! ;-)

webmdave said...

Let me see if I can help answer that. Yesterday a friend of mine from Australia posted a link of the Pat Robertson remarks on my wall and asked me if his view is the general opinion of the rest of us in The US (yes he is being serious). Jorg has never paid much attention to US politics until the last presidential election and he is shocked and horrified at what he hears about us over here. Unfortunately, it is the negative, crazy stuff that makes it into their press, so he has nothing else to judge us on other than what he sees and hears on the news and on the internet.

I am but one lonely voice on FaceBook trying to defend the US from negative perceptions amongst my friends overseas, but what else is he supposed to think if all he hears is folks like Pat Robertson, Tea Baggers, Birthers, and racists getting through? I can't tell you how many times he has sent me a message or posted something on my wall with a link and asked me if that was really how we thought of and frankly he is horrified by it all. I can only reassure him that I am not like that, and that most people I know of aren't, and that it is a small percentage who are haters/crazy/racists/fundies/etc.

So, for the most part, they absolutely DO speak for the rest of us since that is what is being heard and is what is influencing world opinion of us here in the US.

Amiright?

webmdave said...

While some of us may disagree with this or that point that Bruce makes, Pretty nearly all of us will be on board with his main thrust:

"The FORMER-Christian sees ... the Bible as the problem. They know to abandon the Bible is to abandon Christianity. They see no other solution to this problem but rejecting the Bible. It is the Bible that is at that foundation of all the speaking that goes on in God’s name."

Right on, brother!

webmdave said...

My response is to swoon, followed by a quick round of speaking in tongues! Hallelujah!

webmdave said...

This is no different than the news we receive from any other country. We only hear about disasters, assassinations, rigged elections, suicide bombers, and dumb things their politicians and public people say.

Tell your friend to think of it that way. that's all the news any of us really get about other countries.

webmdave said...

Christians can't understand what is means to be an atheist because they aren't one. But Atheists (the majority of were Christians) understand what it means to be a Christian so we have the upper hand on them.

webmdave said...

Good Point.

webmdave said...

How silly. As an atheist ex-Christian I find this sort of thing embarrassing.

It is exactly the same thing to say that one specific biologist represents all scientists as it is to say that one specific Christian represents all Christians.

Yes, a non-scientist may think that the biologist they are speaking to agrees 100% with String theory, but the biologist will be quick to point out that he isn't a physicist and cannot be associated seriously with any theory of physics. If the non-scientist insists that the biologist must, by virtue of his being a scientist, support String theory, this only serves to highlight the non-scientist's ignorance of the complexity within the scientific world.

If this ignorance is on the part of an ex-scientist, well, that's just silly. Any scientist (and any Christian) will know that not all scientists (or Christians) agree about everything. Any ex-Christian will know this as well. Any never-Christian, if he listens to the conversation for any length of time, will also get this.

In short, you're wrong. Not all Christians are the same. It is silly to speak or act as if they are. you discredit us, not them, when you do so.

webmdave said...

My take on the peice was that Christianity is based around the bible which is the speaking of God. If you are a Chrisitian you at least indirectly endorse the bible, the only speaking of the Christian god. The bible is the source of all the hateful and evil speaking of the fundamentalist Christians. Therefore it is disengenuous to distance yourself from people when they say crazy evil shit, why because you still give respect to the bible which, let's face it probably says things many times worse than Pat Robertson.

webmdave said...

Of course, the fact that Hitler was no atheist blows a hole in that argument. If they're going to judge us all by Stalin and Pol Pot, then what do we do with Hitler? No wonder they try so hard to deny that Hitler was an upstanding, Bible-believing Christian.

webmdave said...

Really?? I love how atheists dismiss the Bible on grounds that it is "primitive propaganda", and then use Hitler's propaganda to justify their claim that "Hitler was no atheist". In fact, the Mein Kampf, which is arguably Hitler's most honest work, clearly shows Hitler's disdain of all religious belief? So, Hitler an atheist? Think again.

webmdave said...

Be a little more humble. The most you people know is what Christians around you are like nowadays. Is that what it means to be a Christian? No. The sooner you guys realize these, the sooner the real Christians will want to talk with you.

webmdave said...

That's because you don't understand the Bible.

webmdave said...

Well, here is my response:-

"They speak for us, but they do not speak about us."

webmdave said...

You do realize that this is a site full of ex-christians, right? Several were once clergy. And just about all of us have friends and relatives still in the delusion. Pretty sure we have a grip on what christians are like.

webmdave said...

Yes, you have a grip on what modern Christians are like, at least a very small section. But that doesn't equate to knowing what being a Christian is, or what a Christian should be like.

webmdave said...

How do you figure? Since we all were actual christians. Obviously, firsthand experience DOES equate to "knowing what a christian is and what a christian should be like."

And now, if you are tempted to use the "You were never true christians" argument, please read some testimonies on this site before you try it.

webmdave said...

It aint the things I don't understand in the bible that bother me. It's the things I DO understand. Mark Twain

webmdave said...

Are you " a catholic " by chance ? We don't need anyone telling us what is in the bible.....we have all read it, many times. There are even pastors who are members on this site. If you are here to preach, then please go away. We here bought that bill-of-goods a long time ago.

webmdave said...

acatholic, I was a 'cradle catholic' fot the first 18 years of my life.Stick around & read the testimonials on this site. There may come a day when you too may decide to abandon the deity created by Emperor Constantine at Nicaea, 325CE. ( it was he who conferred divinity on the late JC.)

webmdave said...

Yes, I have read the testimonies on this site, and on many other atheist sites to boot. And what I see is a very shallow interpretation of what being a Christian is, mostly concerned with surface elements. Praying excessively, singing several hymns, reading the Bible from cover-to-cover, going to Confession (especially in the wrong manner) and so on do not make you a Christian if you have the wrong attitude towards all these. If you are familiar with the Bible as you claim, then you should know the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax-collector. Being a Pharisee is not equivalent to being a Christian.

webmdave said...

And apparently he didn't understand much of it.

webmdave said...

Yes, I am.

Yes, I know all of you have read the Bible countless times. But I doubt that any of you have actually understood it in proper context without subjecting it to a prejudiced modernist view, which seems to be the tendency of atheists.

And incidentally, "pastors" are Protestant, not Catholic, or Orthodox for that matter.

webmdave said...

Hitler himself composed the prayer that was read every day in every school in Germany. It's a 'take-off' of the lords prayer. I have the text of it somewhere in this 'boars nest' if you'd like to read it.

webmdave said...

acatholic= Who invited you here ? ? ? " Think again " ! ! ! Looking to have that chip knocked off your shoulder, are you ? There are lot of people here just willing to help you out on that.

In the meantime, digest this, you pompous twit :

" In a speech of 1933 in Berlin, Hitler said, ' We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.'

In 1941 he told his adjutant, General Gerhard Engel, ' I shall remain a Catholic for ever.'

In a speech in Munich in 1923, Hitler said, 'The first thing to do is to rescue Germany from the Jew who is ruining our country. We want to prevent our Germany from suffering, as Another did, the death upon the Cross.'

webmdave said...

Acatholic, you should read Mark Twain's last 2 books : The Mysterious Stranger, & Letters from Earth if you would care to expose yourself to Twains view of Xinsanity. They are very funny to anyone who is at all open-minded.

webmdave said...

I know former priests who became Atheists. Superstition in all Ages was written by a priest. He made three manuscript copies that went to trusted friends upon his demise.(The infamous Inquisition was still functioning at this time.) He continued pastoring to his parishioners until his death, but he had come to disbelieve in religions- all of them. It's a brilliant book that didn't get translated into English until the 20th century. It reads like it was written last year

webmdave said...

acatholic.......INCIDENTALLY I kind of knew that ! Where on earth did you EVER get that crushing know-it-all attitude ? Enlightened people don't have the need to be pompous and arrogant. ........go away.

webmdave said...

One major problem with your thesis: Christ was not invented by Emperor Constantine.

webmdave said...

Still ... it is propaganda, is it not?

webmdave said...

And these are not propaganda? Clearly, there is some bias operating here.

webmdave said...

ROFL! How many times have people here heard that one? acatholic, we may understand more than you realize and have studied a lot more than you know- starting with the barbaric crucifixion. Again, it is from paganism and previous mythology.

webmdave said...

Reading the bible is the best cure for Xianity. Mark Twain It cured me, about 65 years ago.

webmdave said...

Does that really matter if it is pastor or priest? I don't think so. They both have studied the same book and some of us who aren't ministers have studied it too- in college religion classes. I seriously doubt you have an actual understanding of it, much less its origins. So, um... since Episcopalians have priests and bishops are they Catholic or Protestant? IMO, your statement shows how much you do not know about Xianity.

webmdave said...

Yes. The Crucifixion was barbaric.

And no, it is not from paganism and previous mythology. Honestly, to a serious scholar, there are so many obvious differences between Chrsitianity and say, Mithraism if you look beneath the surface.

You act like you understand the Bible, but your comments plainly show that you haven't. If you did understand the Spirit of the Bible, it is extremely different from the paganisms.

webmdave said...

I thought they looked like humans, AKA a form of ape.

webmdave said...

Shallow? Apparently you didn't read very well if you thought that.

webmdave said...

Dear acatholic,

Perhaps you could enlighten me. I tried for 40 years to understand and make apologies for the Bible. I have a Master's Degree in the Bible (MBS - Master of Bible Subjects). After tens of thousands of hours studying and contemplating the Bible, I come to the conclusion that it is complete, man-made Bullshit!!!

Please enlighten me; enlighten all of us here. Help us understand the truth, Oh learn-ed One.

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

webmdave said...

Mriana,

Yes. it makes a difference. Protestants learn different Theology than priests.

And I classify Christians into : Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant. Episcopalian comes under Anglican.

webmdave said...

If you want propaganda, listen to that asshole who wears an ankle length dress & a beanie. He claims to speak for over a billion people. He MAY have a clue as to how MANY of us are FORMER catholics. But he counts all who were baptised catholic as still catholic. The church I went to as a kid merged with three other churches to form one church. That should tell you something. All those pedophile priests have had an effect on church attendence. One would think that the pope would allow priests to marry & live normal lives. The only reason it required (presumed) celibacy was 15 or so centuries ago, the married priests left their estates to their families, not the church.

webmdave said...

acatholic -

You are very astute! You have described your church perfectly (and the Papacy in particular)!

Pumping out propaganda with a clear bias!!! Exactly.

Methinks you protesteth too much. What are you really afraid of??

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

webmdave said...

Yes it is from previous mythology. It is the same motif as many others before it.

No, it is plain that you don't understand the Bible. Check out the Coffin Texts for starters among other Egyptian texts. It is ALL written mythology right down to the Old Testament. See some of Victor H. Matthews (a professor of religion, Episcopal Adult Sunday School teacher, and scholar) books on Amazon. The Bile is FULL of rewritten mythology adapted to a specific culture. Try taking some REAL religious courses, instead of the brainwash you have received. BTW, I made A's in the religious courses I took, as well as was a student of some of the people I have mentioned to you. Quite frankly, you don't know Jack.

webmdave said...

Score 1 for you! But only one. Yes, Episcopalians are Anglicans, but in some respects, they are a LOT like Catholics. However, you do not have a corner on religion, much less Xian doctrine, just because you are Catholic. If anything, you are part of the Vulgar and controlled by religious authority (in this case the Vatican), instead of thinking for yourself.

Have you ever noticed how much like Darth the newest pope looks? Not only that, he is a stupid man when it comes to Women's health and reproduction.

webmdave said...

Acatholic, you should familiarise yourself with the history of Constantine. He convened that council at Nicaea & dominated it. It was he who took the ancient british druid, Hesus, & a most powerful Roman god, Krishna, & combined them with the thought that would end the strife between the gods. When the council could not agree on the new gods divinity, (161 to 157) Emperor decided for them. Voila-Xmas & resurrection.

webmdave said...

Exactly, Godfree. Too bad some people only get censored and biased info, instead of learning the truth about their religion.

webmdave said...

acatholic -

Please tell me where priests come up with the Theology of fu(king little boys in the ass? When did it switch from a vice to a virtue? Or does the church sell indulgences for that now a days?? Hmmmmmm?

Tell us, were you an altar boy? Are you still involved with your father 'bun-pressor'.......uhhh......I mean, father 'con-fessor'?

Let me guess....you are young and a closet gay.....am I wright?

You are wracked with guilt aren't you? No one fights this hard to convince others unless they are desparately trying to convince themselves.

I'll bet you are losing the argument with yourself, aren't you?

XPD

webmdave said...

"Be a little more humble. The most you people know is what Christians around you are like nowadays. Is that what it means to be a Christian? No. The sooner you guys realize these, the sooner the real Christians will want to talk with you."

1. It is your lack of humility that attracted me to respond.
2. I was a Catholic from birth until my late 20's, and I'm now 67.
Religious background: Altar boy from 1950-60 at Guadalupe Church. Lead altar boy, 1958-60.
School: St. Joseph's Academy for boys run by the Marist Brothers, from 1950-60. Member, Sodality of Mary.
College: St. Edward's University (Holy Cross Brothers & Priests, Theology and Philosophy taught by Dominican Priests. Major: English, Minor: Theology/Philosophy.
Cursillo de Cristiandad Rollista: 1962-1965.
Confraternity of Christian Doctrine teacher (high school level) 1964-66. Sponsored three high school boys for the first holy communion.
Concurrently with my intense and all-enveloping Catholic instruction I wrote religious poetry from the age of 15 until 20.
So, the most I know is what? You arrogant, stupid jerk!
Did you ever have to write a paper on the Arian heresy conflicts? How many philosophy classes did you take where you reviewed all the Aristotelian/Thomistic premises for an unmoved mover?
Did you ever have to meditate and then write a rigorous theme on the question whether Christ's suffering on the cross was felt by a human being or was it not human pain because he was also god?
How much of St. Augustine have you had to study? Or St. John of the Cross? Thomas Merton? The Cloud of Unknowing? Markings (Dag's)...
Where the F do you get off assuming we have a shallow, narrow or unstudied understanding of your stupid beliefs?
How many nights have you spent in meditation, kneeling on pebbles and in the sanctuary of the chapel?
Have you ever walked the living rosary with pebbles in your shoes for special indulgence and to heal oneself from physical attractions that are considered sinful?
How many retreats have you spent all night counseling the men who are trying to stop being drunks, or wife-beaters or irresponsible fathers to their children?
How much anguish have you had over the incongruities and inconsistencies of the old and new testament...when your reason and logic keeps bringing up important questions and you keep batting them down because it is 'sacrilegeous' to question holy writ?

You don't know what you are talking about...you typical, arrogant, misinformed and deeply damaged CATHOLIC, living member of the one, holy, apostolic church.

Go sit on your blood cross and rotate.

webmdave said...

Oh that felt good. Most of the fundies that come to pester this site don't seem to be RCs...so when one does come to spread that very special goo, I really get energized.
I've just begun to tell those Papist off!

webmdave said...

I loved "The Mysterious Stranger" and "Letters to Earth". I read them the first time in high school. Maybe Twain was instrumental in my leaving the religion?

webmdave said...

acatholic....And I classify Christians into: Deluded, Deluded, Deluded and Deluded. Deluded comes under Deluded.

webmdave said...

My prejudiced modern view was nurtured under Pius XII, by Oblate Priests, Marist Brothers, Dominican Priests, Holy Cross Brothers & Priests. By the time Vatican Council happened it was a little too late...the damage had been done. I was convinced of the error of my ways, my mind took over and the rest is history.
Every thing that has happened within the institution since then has only reinforced the sanity of my decisions.
Bye bye burdens, guilt, murky mysteries, institutionalized arrogance, hate and elitism, insane/inane repetitions of weird formulae, novenas, prayers, indulgence rich phrases, Marian retreats, living and dead rosaries... and especially the inhuman and debilitating guilt! Gone, gone and not missed.
I now love and am loved freely. I do good because it is in my human nature, without any attribution to any bronze age deity nor to any complex, unnecessary triune formula.
I'm glad you came on board. I really needed to write down all these things because they've been clear to me for several decades but I had not had the opportunity to actually record them.
I've got much more to say, but this is a good start.
Keep your stupid comments coming: they are doing me a world of good. My responses are totally and beneficially cathartic.

I can see clearly now, the sun has risen.

webmdave said...

Is it just me or does acatholic's name look, at a glance, like alcoholic? I don't know about others, but when I first glanced at it, it looked like that and I had to look at it again. However, I still can't keep myself from thinking alcoholic. S/he is obviously on opiates though- if you catch my drift.

webmdave said...

Wow, aureliom!

I am sitting here breathless. Evidently, I held my breath while reading that entire post.

Truly magnificent.

So glad you are on our side now.

webmdave said...

acatholic....Tell me, is that " Spirit of the Bible ", as you so lovingly phrase it, the thousands of men, women, children, babies & babies in the womb who were slaughtered with the say so from your Loving
" God " ? ? ? Don't you just Looooove the part where babies are killed at spear point and torn from their Mother's wombs ? ? ? Yes, " The Spirit of The Bible " !

webmdave said...

El Monte, Wow! That was some good sh*t! I was jumping up and down shouting, "Amen, Brother!"

It does feel good, doesn't it?

XPD

webmdave said...

acatheter:

He undertood much more than you do.

Mark Twain was brilliant, and could see so much more than you can. And, his prose is infinitely more readable than your bible. His wit, logic and powerful reasoning is much greater evidence of human intelligence and wit than all your holy books put together.

I don't even agree with those who consider the KJV of the bible to be great literature and poetry, not when compared to Shakespeare, Marlowe or Donne.

webmdave said...

aureliom

Or e. e. cummings.

webmdave said...

Go sit on your blood cross and rotate.

Ow! Sounds like one of those torture devises from the Inquisitions.

That was great even so, aureliom. :)

webmdave said...

A catatonic-colic,
Let me speak about you:
You are exactly the smug, elitist, un-original, cliche-ridden, mistaken and misguided kind of Catholic that reminds me of how important and rational it was for me to leave your One, Holy & Apostolic bunch. With the current Rottweiler of the Lord in the Vatican, Opus Dei running the show for the curriculum of all the seminaries and convents, and the Curia stacked with Fascist-pre-VATII-Reactionaries, you can bet that even believers who are moderate in their faith and progressive politically will be distancing themselves from your fold.
I will speak about you:
You are homophobic, anti-women, anti-progressive governments who support workers and the poor. You prefer personal charity to socially structured benefits. You consider non-christians heathens, pagans and possibly in the devil's camp. You belief in the devil.
You believe in a whole gaggle of imaginary beings. You believe that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct and those who differ are wrong, satan-inspired and going to hell, a place that you believe actually exists.
You believe that those flat little wafers and the wine in the chasuble, upon consecration through the miracle of substantiation become the actual body and blood of christ.
Those are just a few reasons why I will speak about you.
You are an embarrassment to evolved, compassionate adults that are working steadily to make this a better world through concrete actions. Your time spent in what you call prayer is an escape from the world that very much needs all of us here and doing something to make it a better world.

webmdave said...

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

webmdave said...

I don't understand how you can so smugly say any one of us doesn't understand the Bible. You, because you gloss over incongruities, because you cherry pick your quotes, because you consider one part the completion of the other, because you ignore the linguistic, semantic and political history of the documents contained within the two covers of that strange stitched-together document not really agreed upon until 300 years after the events recorded, because you have not read it, word-for-word, digging for meaning, trying to make sense of a jealous, capricious, vindictive, egotistical, bellicose, sadistic, virgin raper, son killer of a deity, because of these reasons I can conclude that you have a limited, blinded and quite narrow understanding of that book.
Whether it's Genesis, Leviticus or Pauls epistles...no part holds well by itself, and altogether it's the messiest, most incongruous and scary multi-authored collection of ancient writings anyone could scrounge up.

That's because you don't understand the Bible...a-cat-holic.

webmdave said...

Mriana, did you ever see the movie "The Devils" based on the "Devils of Loudon" a series of events that actually happened in France? Amazingly graphic!!!

webmdave said...

aCASPERolic thinks someone else other than Constantine invented Jeebus? Well that might be true, but without the emperor's good romankeeping seal of approval we probably would be following some other myth these days. Nicea seems to be accepted by most mainstream Xian churches as the first council, and where the first 'creed' was officially adopted and which all those who were to be considered Xians officially were to memorize and swear by. But I guess that's not inventing, it's codifying and mandating.
You say stupid and I say stupido. Let's call the whole charade off.

webmdave said...

I do agree with Bruce's conclusions about this, and I believe a person like that can have a profound effect on their followers and those looking for guidance from a strong leader. If this person does not speak for you, then they should be made a pariah. What that man said was vile and I wrote to the CBN to tell them I was disgusted at how they attempted to smooth things over for him, they are disgusting cowards. As anyone who would dare to stand up for anyone making any remark like that.
My point is, if they don't speak for you and they do something wrong, as a community you should stand up in condemnation, not cower in the shadows of someone else's hatred.

webmdave said...

acatamite: "Be a little more humble."

*KAPOW*

(puts Her Clue-By-Four™ back under the desk and takes a long draught of beer) Ah, that felt good.

You, sir or madam, are apparently convinced that *you* are a prime example of that rarest of birds, the True Christian.

Accordingly, based on your behaviour here, I think it is reasonable to conclude that a True Christian™ is both deluded *and* rude.

So if we ever decide we want to emulate you, I'm sure we can find much more delightful delusions and far more creative ways of being rude. Catholicism just isn't worth the bother.

webmdave said...

acatholic:"I love how atheists dismiss the Bible on grounds that it is "primitive propaganda"

Let's see, it was written no later than 2000 years ago, in primitive times, by primitive men.

Yeah, I'd say that most certainly qualifies it as being "primitive propaganda" alright.

Actually it's more like a sadistic comic book, but without the pictures, IMHO

webmdave said...

acatholic: "One major problem with your thesis: Christ was not invented by Emperor Constantine."

Proof please. Assertion is not sufficient.

webmdave said...

acatholic: "That's because you don't understand the Bible."

And you, of course, do.

Please apply your superior understanding and explain to us why:

1. killing a fig tree because it does not bear fruit out of season is virtuous behaviour;

2. killing children who laugh at a man's baldness is virtuous behaviour;

3. the genocide of the Amalekites, other than the virgin women, kept for pleasure, is virtuous behaviour;

4. the condemnation of the human race for an action taken by a men (Adam) before he knew right from wrong is virtuous behaviour.

There are so many evil deeds performed both by your god and his followers in the Boys' Own Book of Bronze Age Myth that I do believe I understand the bible.

I eagerly await your explanation of your god's deviant morality.

Peace,

David

webmdave said...

"Spirit of the bible" - this IS something you have seen, purchased or otherwise acquired and can produce documentary evidence for?

webmdave said...

"And incidentally, "pastors" are Protestant, not Catholic, or Orthodox for that matter."

Does this explain their unusual take on the "Pastoral Care" of young boys?

webmdave said...

"And apparently he didn't understand much of it."

A phrase which you appear to use as though it were semantically equivalent to: "His conclusions are not the same as my opinions and therefore he can be dismissed."

Never having been a "catholic" I would be grateful to hear from the ex-catholics here: is it a requirement of the religion that your frontal lobes are cauterized before they allow you to learn to use the internet?

You, my proud and arrogant friend, seem determined never to engage in rational thinking. lest it rob you of your mythical salvation. A shame then, that you refuse to use that which you believe god has provided you with.

webmdave said...

Your seriously talking about how if we knew the "true christians(tm)" we would be set straight, while simultaneously affiliating yourself with an organization responsible for covering up child sex abuse while simultaneously keeping said abuser in a position where they can abuse again.

Oh but maybe we should put all that shit in context, obviously a the catholic church systematically protecting those who rape 10 year olds isn't horrific in context, much like the systematic slaughter of an entire people down to the last man, woman, and child, is truly a wondrous tale designed to fill us with true love for our fellow man in context.

webmdave said...

Unfortunately, these people have made us a planetary laughing stock. The only way to deal with it is to marginalize them, which won't be done, because they've become too rich and powerful. America is finished, and deserves to be. Unfortunately, as we continue to go down, we'll be taking the rest of the world down with us.

webmdave said...

But I doubt that any of you have actually understood it in proper context without subjecting it to a prejudiced modernist view

Right - in other words, without filtering it through the lens provided you by the Holy roman Emperor.

webmdave said...

Yep.....the Bible is a pretty big part of why I left Christianity. Just too much smiting, killing, plague and contradiction for me. I simply can't follow that form of "morality". For the record, until the Christian community lets their voice be heard that they disagree with people like Robertson, they are pretty much allowing perception that he speaks from them...even if it may not be reality. FREDDY

webmdave said...

godfree, a small point - Krishna is an Indian deity. He might have been imported by the Romans (many deities were), but if so, I haven't heard of it. Although, it is analogous - although Krishna has been presented for centuries as an incarnation of God, in its earliest form according to this Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna#Early_traditions), Krishna worship apparently saw him as the son of the creator, and it did take place two to four centuries before Christ.

(Yeah, I know it isn't always the most reliable source, but it's so damned convenient!)

webmdave said...

No one fights this hard to convince others unless they are desparately trying to convince themselves.

And we have a winner!

webmdave said...

Other than being a giant hypocrite, Ted Haggard is definitely my kind of Xtian. Anybody who is into sex, drugs and rock and roll (unconfirmed) can't be all bad!!

The thing that really bothers me about Xtians is not all the crap they pull. Many of us who are truthful will admit that we've done some of those things or at least are close to someone who has. The thing that gets me is that they condemn everyone else for doing it when they're as guilty as anyone!

BTW, Glebealyth, although i've never been a true Xtian, i know the Xtian answer to your question without even consulting the bible OR a Xtian. "God works in mysterious ways." As if that's really an answer for anything! Just try that line on a cop when you get pulled over for a traffic violation and he asks for an explanation!

webmdave said...

And incidentally, "pastors" are Protestant, not Catholic, or Orthodox for that matter.

As others have said, you are telling us nothing new -- well, except for your erroneous statement that 'pastors' are not catholic. If you can't even get that little tidbit of info correct, why should anyone listen to anything you have to say. True Catholic™, yeah right.

You are here preaching, which makes you in violation of the TOS of this website. Take your smug attitude and leave.

webmdave said...

godfree,

Thanks for the tip on that book. I can't wait to get my hands on it!

webmdave said...

"Be a little more humble."

Heed your own advice, you arrogant, smug, self-righteous, egotistical, deluded, little twerp.

webmdave said...

a-cat-holic

That's an insult to cats! Don't associate my cats with this person. Besides, she doesn't worship Bast, anyway and my cats would not claim her/him as a Bast worshiper.

Anyway, aureliom, you know Catholics are spoon-fed their information. S/he probably hasn't read of a word of the Bible and is going by what they have been told.

webmdave said...

"Oh that felt good...."

As an ex-catholic myself, it sure felt good reading it! Thank You!

webmdave said...

response to aureliom

Mriana, did you ever see the movie "The Devils" based on the "Devils of Loudon" a series of events that actually happened in France? Amazingly graphic!!!

I never even heard of that movie. I haven't even heard of "the Devils of Loudon".

webmdave said...

El Monte -

You are on a roll brother! Let it out, let it all out!

I'm enjoying every word of you cogent, ex-catholic diatribe!

Keep it coming; I'm learning and laughing at the same time!

XPD

webmdave said...

I agree wholeheartedly, Patricia.

webmdave said...

David,

I'm sure that acatholic is off to Mess.....urrr...I mean Mass. He hasn't replied for several hours now. We have probably seen the last of him.......hit and run catholic lunatic!

XPD

webmdave said...

Par for the course, I suppose. An allusion that will certainly not be lost on you, my friend.

I much prefer the "bottle in front of me" to the "frontal lobotomy" that acatholic seems to have undergone.

webmdave said...

Good observation, though I still remain unconvinced that our friend possesses the anatomical areas normally subject to the effects of alcohol.

webmdave said...

I agree with what you said Lisa. I was about to compose a response such as this, but you said it very well.

webmdave said...

Never having been a "catholic" I would be grateful to hear from the ex-catholics here: is it a requirement of the religion that your frontal lobes are cauterized before they allow you to learn to use the internet?

Well, David, even though I am an ex-catholic myself, I can't honestly asnwer your question. You see, I'm so freakin' old, that I became ex-catholic LONG before the intrawebs were a glimmer in Al Gore's eyes.... lol

webmdave said...

"bottle in front of me" to the "frontal lobotomy"

LOL....love that!

webmdave said...

Here, here!!!

webmdave said...

Ken Russell is one of my all time out-of-the-box film directors.
The Devils is a 1971 horror film directed by Ken Russell. It stars Oliver Reed and Vanessa Redgrave. It is based partially on the 1952 book The Devils of Loudun by Aldous Huxley, and partially on the 1960 play The Devils by John Whiting, also based on Huxley's book. Derek Jarman was responsible for the film's production design. The film is a dramatised historical account of the rise and fall of Urbain Grandier, a 17th century French priest executed for witchcraft.

webmdave said...

Jesus loves you acatholic, everyone else thinks you're an asshole.

webmdave said...

Do the undead actually have glimmers in their eyes?

webmdave said...

aureliom : Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes ! ! !

webmdave said...

Let's not forget the Inquisitions, the Crusades, forced indoctrinations, torture of heretics, pagans, etc, mass slaughter of those not Xian (before the Reformation), more violence, etc etc. The Church has not been humane at all through the centuries and now they just love to do harm to women and LBGTs. The Church degrades and dehumanizes, even "demonizes", both groups.

webmdave said...

Then you haven't read "Genesis", illustrated by R. Crumb. I hope he continues through the bible. The illustrations make the ignorance and violence really pop.

webmdave said...

Yes. I said basically the same thing using the Democratic party as my example. Not every Democratic leader speaks for me, though I am a Democrat.

webmdave said...

psychman,

Very compassionate insights. I would love to know you.

webmdave said...

I loved this article and loved the intellectual smack down a catholic has recieved.

Has anyone ever noticed how christians cannot stand up to legit questions and debate about statements they themselves make about thier religion and god.

But what I find even more puzzling is why they(christians) support and defend a god that wont even inspire them to stay on the intellectual battlefield and defend that very god.

Its funny how that works out, isnt it.

webmdave said...

ACatholic: "One major problem with your thesis: Christ was not invented by Emperor Constantine."

Just like Charlie Brown wasn't invented by Charles Schulz.

webmdave said...

I know why you are saying it, psychman, and I heartily agree with you. Thank you for your comments.

Enjoy the playtime. ;o)

webmdave said...

Very true, XPDan. I do hope s/he returns so I can also run down all the saints and their previous pagan god/goddess names. Even my older son knows these things- from Mother Mary's former identity as a pagan goddess, to St. Francis former identity, the patron saint of traveler's former identity as a pagan god, etc etc. acatholic IS a polytheist and doesn't even realize it.

webmdave said...

I don't know. How often do they take communion and how much alcohol do they suck down in that "sip" of wine, if they take the wine? They might not be affected by the alcohol depending on those factors.

webmdave said...

your comments were great and I completely agree with you. I learn so much from the people on this site and am astounded by the knowledge. I still fail to understand why people resort to name-calling and insults and what exactly people think that accomplishes...but also understand more than ever that people have to travel their own path.

webmdave said...

Because there is nothing intellectual about their god.

webmdave said...

ACatholic: "And I classify Christians into: Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant. Episcopalian comes under Anglican."

I classify xtians as hypocrites or immoral criminals; if you're not devoted to carry on the tradition of murdering witches, you're the former.

Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

webmdave said...

Exactly. But my point is, if their perfect god (who smarter than Yoda btw) is so smart and loving and has their back soooooooooooooo strongly.

One would think at the very least Yahweh would inspire Christians to defend what they claim is real.

I think the truth is they cant defend what they believe and when they try most if not all of their arguments fall apart very quickly.

webmdave said...

I don't think that is a factor. By the time they get to "sip" it, is it not blood?

webmdave said...

They can't defend what falls apart, yet they still believe it as being the truth.

webmdave said...

Dagnarus,your response to acatholic was spot on.He thinks simply stating something makes his statement an incrovertible fact. Yours are not. Constantine DID confer apotheosis on JC. I give Catholicism 3 to 5 centuries, all the while with diminishing 'clout' by the clown in the white dress who is lost in a long gone century.

webmdave said...

We must give the Roman church credit for not participating in the ridiculous 'speaking in tongues' which pervades some fundamentalist groups And they don't all go in for waving their arms as though expecting the rapture momentarily. That said, the Catholic church is a living but dying institution. 50 % of the vatican hierararchy funded by Uncle Sam.

webmdave said...

psychman86, well said, and I understand everything that you've said.
While I don't live in the Babble Belt, I still am surrounded by fundys, and as you said : " reading all your posts and responses on a nightly basis is like a breath of fresh air to my weary brain..."
you also said " I am proud to be on this forum with all of you. "
I'm sure that I speak for everyone, in that we are proud that you are here too !

webmdave said...

Are you saying you are a scholar then? Do you know the origins of the Bible? Studied them? You know the concept of Quelle or Q as it's called? How the Bible's history was based on word of mouth of modified stories derived from many different locations that have been effected by the cultures and religions of their area. That there have been committees that went through and ripped out or added stories etc.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2569440864215926514&q=hector+avalos&ei=lFRpSLreH4-UjgKr4_mUCQ#

Don't let the MN atheist intro scare you, I was too lazy to search for Dr. Avalos from other areas. Most people have gone to the point of entirely dismissing tired and old comments because looking for the information to present is time consuming and often goes IGNORED! If you really were serious, then you wouldn't dismiss our arguments so easily. If you want to be taken seriously, then you will listen to our arguments so you have a base to build your knowledge upon and so that you can make the best judgment. Also I recommend getting a parallel bible. Some will even give you the most literal translation of the original language. You will also see how the language is modified from New Kings James to The International to etc. etc. You will see that there are references of unicorns, dragons and other mythological creatures.

I don't think you understand that many of us have had multiple backgrounds looking at different religions or have looked deeply into the issues with the Bible. Many other religions in the world will tell you you're wrong and that YOU don't understand the Spirit of THEIR Bible. It's kind of like, Same old crap, different day scenarios for us.

Also I recommend watching PBS, Nova, The Discovery Channel, The History Channel and watch their programs covering archeology and the bible. Then I recommend reading a lot of Greek, Egyptian and Hebrew mythology.

webmdave said...

i think that is what the author is trying to say. you accept the good and the bad of your party, but when a nut case in the Dem. party does go off the deep end, you admit it. I think this frustration is coming from someone who recignizes that not all christians fess up that Xtianity is good sometimes and B-A-D mostly.

webmdave said...

Real Christians™

¬_¬

webmdave said...

To acatholic... let you be anathema!

You are not welcome to peddle your BS here. You are not a valiant defender of the faith. You are mindless drone defending dogma of which there is no proof. You have nothing but "oral tradition" and "faith" and "hope" and "mysticism" and "ancient texts" that do not stand up to higher criticism or textual criticism. You have not said one thing that many of us have not considered many times.

I hereby declare you anathema.

So decrees Pious_Ted... Saint of the Skeptics... ruling from the Chair of Pious_Ted... fallible in the areas of faith and morals... but still more reasonable than you.

Go away.

webmdave said...

All lobotomies do not heal properly!! (Norm Liebman, writer and/or director and/or producer of the Munsters)

webmdave said...

Sorry. I just now read your "I much prefer the "bottle in front of me" to the "frontal lobotomy" that acatholic seems to have undergone." after posting the below. If it belongs at all, maybe it belongs here instead:

All lobotomies do not heal properly!! (Norm Liebman, writer and/or director and/or producer of the Munsters)

webmdave said...

Hmm, that is because that is a mistranslation.

webmdave said...

S/he back! I had thought s/he had left.

webmdave said...

Hahahahaha ... so very funny. On one hand, I feel mad at you for derogating me, and implicitly assuming that I am American. On the other hand, I feel sad that you are unwilling to drop your emotional baggage and come to to look at the Bible more objectively. You atheists think that you are high and mighty and objective, when you are really no more so than the fundy living next door to you.

webmdave said...

psychman,

I understand that you are being diplomatic. Do you think acatholic was being diplomatic by coming here and arguing with members of this forum? Despite acatholic's appearance of sincerity in his beliefs, this site is not for Christian apolgists. I thought acatholic was being rather smug and rude. If one of us went to a Catholic Christian website and started arguing and talking down to them and claiming they were unreasonable with a sarcastic *sigh*, how do you think we would be received? How has the Catholic Church treated determined unbelievers throughout much of its sorry history? In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that long ago that they dealt with people like us in brutal fashion. Without modern society and political restraint, they may be brutal now. I have zero regard for the Catholic Church. I think it is the worst institution in the history of mankind.

You are diplomatic. acatholic was not. Thanks for your many contributions.

webmdave said...

That's funny. You should bone up on your church history. Pope Benedict XVI does not consider ANY Protestant Church to be a true Christian "church" at all. He is quite clear on this point. He consider Protestant Churches to be nothing more than "ecclesial communities". He does not believe Christ is present in the Eucharist that Protestants observe. There is no need for you to appear to be diplomatic on this issue. Pope Benedict XVI is quite clear.

webmdave said...

XPDan,

The typical atheists stereotypes; you really think I am not familiar with them?

(1) It's not theology. It's bad behaviour. But let's not veer off the topic. I am not defending the behaviour of any Church leader; I am merely defending the Doctrine and the Scripture.

(2) No, I was not an altar boy; and don't press your American problems onto the rest of the world. Really, how many times do I need to tell you guys that I am not American????

(3) No, I am not.

(4) I am not wracked with guilt. If I am wracked with anything, it is sorrow that there are still humans who want to keep the world apart, divided into camps. And yes, Fundamentalists and paedophile priests and terrorists have their role to play in perpetuating this divide, and should be summarily held to task for it. But also, you atheists and "freethinkers" cannot deny your own responsibility in perpetuating the divide.

It takes two hands to clap.

The more raging and insensitive your comments are on your websites and in public (on American streets and media, which tend to get broadcast internationally), the more you drive Christians behind the likes of Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps, and the more incentive you give for the next Conclave to elect an even more Conservative Pope than Benedict XVI. In short, the more you alienate Christians, the more you build up your own hell on earth.

(5) No, I am not, because I have contemplated and realized the deepest meaning of the Bible, which would surprise you if you knew. I could tell you, but I am certain 100% you would reject it, because of all your prejudices towards the Bible.

webmdave said...

Would you stop being so arrogant, acatholic? This is one of many Xian attitudes that cause me to stop listening, because you don't know it all. You only know a VERY small piece of the puzzle.

As for stereotyping, I think you have done plenty of that concerning atheists.

webmdave said...

Mriana,

(1) In some respects, and in some churches only. The Episcopalian Communion is the American version of the Anglican Communion, and so exhibits the same variety as its counterparts across the channel.

It might surprise you, but I was a die-hard liberal - pro-American type - for the last 8 years, but then I read some books by a variety of Catholic and Protestant Theologians, and read through again, and realized the sense behind some of the Church's more controversial teachings (meaning teachings that do not satisfy the American-dominated world).

I love the stereotype of the papacy you atheists love to paint. But being a Catholic, I know that the "control" the Vatican - or even my Parish priest - has on me is minimal. As far as I am concerned, my country's Government ranks higher on the scale of danger than my Archbishop.

In fact, if you really read history carefully, the Vatican's raw political power was never as strong as any secular state's, not even while the Pope was ruling the Papal States. The atrocities during the Crusades and the Inquisitions are of a greater degree due to lack of centralization of control rather than over-centralization of control.

(2) No, I haven't. You must possess some kind of inner vision that I lack. And qualify the second statement.

Incidentally, have you realized how much Christopher Hitchens looks like the Cheshire Cat?

webmdave said...

sidvicious,

I get your point. And I agree that those of us who are "attacked" by believers should expect an ardent reply from us. That is always in order and perfectly reasonable.

I guess what I was trying to address was the fact that many times the discussions seem to breakdown and end up being vicious. I know I have been guilty of it because its frustrating to deal with someone who doesn't even consider the possibility that THEY might be wrong. I have always asserted that on any number of things I might be wrong and am open to change if the evidence compels me.

And yes, many xtian "apologists" come here and they hope to do some batting practice with us "evil non-believers" (their characterization) in order to feel good about themselves and carve some notches on their crucifixes. LOL!!! Maybe that's what is really bugging me here. How they start all their conversations with us non-believers with the inner assumption that they are on the higher ground. That presumptuousness is annoying and I just wish that they would concede that they might be wrong.

Your right that Acatholic was not being diplomatic and raised the ire of many of us by making pontificating a priori assertions. An ass kicking was in order and it was rightfully given.

Look, I don't really care about Acatholic particularly but for some reason the back and forth that was going on got me thinking about how we have these types of discussions with those who are where we have been.

You are correct that the religious establishment has persecuted those who do not conform and in "trying to save souls" has perpetrated many abuses that are extremely inhumane and, in many cases, antisocial. I agree that we should stand up to that and hold our ground and not give an inch to their manipulations and I am committed to this with every fiber of my being.

Thanks for your reply.

Look, I hate religion with a passion and am committed to helping others escape the mindfuck that it is. I just don't want to be guilty of becoming what I used to be except on this

webmdave said...

I have never asserted that you were any particular nationality.

I do not have baggage. You, acatholic, have baggage.

This site is not for Christian apologists. I would not be so bold as to visit a Catholic website and pick a fight. You came here uninvited. Respect our right to have our own forum and kindly go away.

webmdave said...

Acatholic, you suggest that we 'look at the bible more objectively'.Studying that dreadful book played a HUGE part in our leaving the fold.Not reading that work of fiction plays a large part in keeping people catholic. For many centuries the pope kept the laity ignorant of what was in that book. it was only a few centuries ago that the cat got out of the bag, & contributed mightily to the reformation. Well, that & the corruption in the church at all levels.Come to think of it , there seems to have been much corruption in recent history. So far, it has cost mother church about two Billion dollars to pay off some of the victims. NOT ALL, I have personal knowledge of one who has not been compensated for the mental anguish he has endured for many tears. If there WAS a god, a lot of highly respected people would be in that hell created by our ignorant ancestors

webmdave said...

acatholic.....well now that you're back....just curious here, what country do you live in and have you ever read anything other than catholic dogma ? As we all have mentioned, we have read the bible.
What have YOU read to counter-balance what your church dictates to you ?

webmdave said...

"But being a Catholic, I know that the "control" the Vatican - or even my Parish priest - has on me is minimal."

Then you're doing it wrong. They are supposed to have a say in who you can marry, how you raise your children, the kind of birth control you use (rhythm only), how much money you give to them, who you vote for. . .in short, they want to control every aspect of your life.

And you are not letting them? Why not?

webmdave said...

#4. The US is 80% christian. They are building the hell.

#5. Do tell.

webmdave said...

Ok, so why acatholic, are you assuming that everyone here is an atheist? This site is named exchristian.net, not atheist world. I'm an exChristian, but by no means consider myself an atheist. I think everyone here has does have in common that at some time they were a Christian, and now they are not, and they are pretty disillusioned by the whole illogical charade.

And, it would appear to me that everything you're saying here is not out of any generosity of heart or true care for anyone on this site. You don't strike me as one of those sincere Christians who really is here out of worry or fear that any of us is going to hell.

So why are you here on this site? It appears you're likely here to feed your own ego and on a power trip by trying to stir things up. It's likely you're projecting your own deep seeded fear and guilt on others so you don't have to face it. And if that's the case, it doesn't appear your faith is helping much to give you relief from your own inner turmoil. That may be telling.

Anyways, why don't you tell everyone the intent behind all your posts? Are you here because you care about any of us? (Honestly...no bullshitting here), or is it because you get a charge out of being obnoxious? At least call a spade a spade.

webmdave said...

We left our baggage behind with our religion in it. And good riddance to it.

webmdave said...

I guess you have forgotten the Inquisition- brought on by the Church, which at the time was under Roman rule, thus the RC. I guess you have forgotten the Crusades- also brought on by RC. The king was appointed by the Church in Rome. The list of travesties of the Church goes on and on, but I guess you conveniently forget those things in history.

The Church has controlled the thoughts of the Vulgar for centuries, even started the Dark Ages, as a means to control the masses. "The Church fired it's furnaces hotter than anybody else." ~ John Shelby Spong

Here is a video I love to show others, which applies to this topic, due to the control factor, even though it talks about hell too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc (Enjoy!)

I love cats, so if he does, it doesn't phase me at all, but your Pope looks like pure evil.

webmdave said...

I, for one, vote for not feeding the troll.

WebMaster Dave didn't create and maintain this site for Christian apologists. acatholic has shown zero respect to WebMaster Dave and the rules of this forum. I haven't heard one thing from acatholic that I have not heard ad nauseum, ad infinitum, etc. etc. so forth and so on, yada, yada and yada. It is a waste of time debating this troll.

I look forward to the next thread.

webmdave said...

Acatholic, what exactly do you get out of coming in here and spouting off? Is it pleasure? Is it brownie points?

You know, you come in here with an arrogant attitude and your going to get that in return. Which then will simply confirm to you your a priori assumption that atheists are arrogant. You get what you put out!!!

Let me clue you in on what might have worked and gotten you a warmer welcome. How about asking us to have some sort of discussion about OUR experience(s) with religion first and not dismissing us as simply not having a "real" understanding of what xtianity/catholicism is all about. Look, many of us really did believe and dedicated many years of our lives to some sort of faith commitment. But, eventually, our questioning nature helped us move past it all and conclude that everything religion promises (virtue, ethics, morality, hope) can all be had without resorting to belief in supernatural beings. So then we simply left and are much happier for it.

Look, many of us have been where you are and in some cases were even members of the clergy and led congregations and did the dirty work that is pastoral care so don't come in here and dismiss our experiences out of hand. If your looking for some batting practice then you should get out or stick around and I guarantee you, many will be willing to lob some balls in your direction.

But since you are a catholic it doesn't surprise me that you are glutton for punishment. So, if an ass beating is what you want, then an ass beating is what you'll find here my friend.

But really, why are you here? What do you want?
We already know who you are and what you think with respect to our view of things. So, tell us what you hope to accomplish by being here.

webmdave said...

Yes, I am ready to move onto the next thread. This troll has nothing new to say and is under total mind control.

webmdave said...

I second that. Acatholic is close-minded. S/he is in violation of the clearly stated purpose of this website. Good riddance.

webmdave said...

I loved that video. I have a Spong book 'A New Christianity for a new world" my husband bought me that I haven't gotten around to reading because I've been so busy exploring the extreme opposite of what I've always believed. I need to pick it up though as I've heard (read) you mention his name several times in a highly regarded fashion.

webmdave said...

It's a good book. I learned a lot from it and his other books. Of course, it helped to lead me out of religion too, but regardless, it is a good read.

webmdave said...

I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE BIBLE FROM COVER-TO-COVER TEN TIMES, YOU ATHEIST HYPOCRITE!!!!

I really did not want to vent, but you have stretched my patience beyond the limit. In fact, Moderator, if you are really as objective as you claim to be, kindly ban Mriana, Sarah, XPDan, markbley and SummerBreeze from this thread. They are adding absolutely nothing to the discussion!!

webmdave said...

ACatholic: “Hmm, that is because that is a mistranslation.”

Which part is infallible is a foul/erroneous? Is it the word murder or witch?

Leviticus 20:14 – “If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.”

Capital punishment for fornication/double-dipping, by bonfire.

webmdave said...

9.

I sifted and separated god from everything. And when I looked, god had gone with it.

Common mistake among christians that god has to be replaced with some sort of substitute. Not so. There is no gaping hole to be filled. There is only freedom.

webmdave said...

acatholic

The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge for Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs.

You have worn out any semblance of a welcome you thought you had in coming here.

WebMaster Dave, would you please send this troll packing?

webmdave said...

Sigh ... I have told you already ... I have read the Bible cover-to-cover ten times, and the Catechism cover-to-cover as many times as that.

Your comments about the Reformation show that you hardly understand what it is.

And as for hell, you create your own hell. Not God, not Jesus, not your Ancestors, but yourself.

webmdave said...

You have the Bible 10 times. Good for you.

Here is a verse I am sure you are familiar with.

Mark 6:11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."

Please do as Mark says. Wipe the dust from your feet and go away. You are not welcome here. You really are a pill.

webmdave said...

Really? I didn't know I was adding nothing to the discussion? And who are you calling a hypocrite?

I've read the Bible cover to cover many times over- had to for the classes I took and I even read it at least twice cover to cover before taking any classes in Christianity. Would you like to see my high school transcript where I took Literature of the Bible? I had to read the whole damn book then. Would you like to see my college transcript where I took more classes in religion than you ever have- Christianity (several in this area), Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, and many more. I have studied Gnosticism and even mythology and philosophy.

How can I not add anything when I've studied more religion than you ever have. You haven't even studied Humanism to even have a clue as to what it is. PLEASE! Don't insult my intelligence with your superstitious drivel. You have been arrogant since the moment you came to this site and I have hardly shown any arrogance, although I could have.

I am sorry my education insults you, but truth be known, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! The truth is, you worship the sun and many other gods through saints, with no clue as to what it is all about or how it evolved into what it is today.

As for banning... I have been here a WHOLE LOT longer than you have and have contributed a WHOLE LOT more to this site than you have in the last two days of being here. I wouldn't go demanding anything out of our webmaster/moderator if I were you.

So, just sit down, shut up, and listen for a change.

webmdave said...

"And as for hell, you create your own hell"

OH BOY, my very own customized hell.

I think I'll invite all my Ex-Xtian buds for this sure-to-be, fun eternal BBQ party.

Heck, maybe we can make it a costume party.

Okay, so who wants to dress up as what?

ATF

webmdave said...

acatholic,

I have no leftover "emotional baggage" from when I was a xtian, so I'm fairly sure that I look at the bible objectively, as I do any other supernatural or extraordinary claim that someone makes.

It's very clear that you have a complete lack of objective evidence for your god, or for the accuracy of wild-ass claims that are made within the pages of your holy book.

The bible fails to support itself in so many ways, that surely one has to ignore all the many problems, in order to maintain one's blind faith in it.

It fails most science.
It fails most finds of recent archeology.
It fails basic ethics on how humanity should be treated.
It fails to present a god that isn't self-contradictory in attributes.

In other words, it just FAILS to satisfy anyone with a discerning brain.

Take your man-made product for "group-control", to a website where it's appreciated.

ATF (Who wonders where a certain other former catholic troll vanished to, but isn't missing him either)

webmdave said...

WebMaster Dave, would you please send this troll packing?

I second that! S/he has even tested the limits of my patience.

webmdave said...

ONCE AGAIN, FOR THE READING COMPREHENSION-CHALLENGED:

The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge for Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs.

You really are a trip, acath. You've got me ROTFLMAO asking for those for whom this website was created to be banned. You are the intruder.

I'd like to thank those you listed for stretching your patience beyond your limit. Job well done, folks!

Also, thanks for giving me the opportunity to post this link. It's been a long time...... but you are worthy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=6PaHcZUHI00
---------------------------------------------------
Okay, webmasterdave, please show this troll the door. But leave the posts up. They're good for the entertainment value AND for reminding us WHY we are EXchristians..... Thanks

webmdave said...

You had to read the catechism 10 times to understand it !? While that is appalling, it explains why you are still a catholic. And why you are still here on this ExChristian site. An old navy expression comes to mind : There's always some s,o.b. who didn't 'get the word'.

webmdave said...

psychman86,

(1) I am sorry that you have such a negative impression about me, but I believe that I already answered your question in another post.

(2) I apologize for sounding arrogant; in fact, I tried my best not to sound that way. Those people whom I did sound arrogant to are those who sounded arrogant to me first.

(3) because I didn't come in here as a complete newbie. I have read your posts on other threads on this website, and know roughly what your experiences are, since you guys are not so unwilling to share them in public.

But yes, I still hold that you have a misunderstanding, perhaps one which was intentionally or unwittingly transmitted to you by your elders, but a misunderstanding nonetheless. And my first clue? The claim that God is "a super-natural being". God is not a super-natural being; God is a trans-natural being. God exists both within and without nature, not solely without nature, as "supernatural" implies.

(4) I don't dismiss anyone's experiences out of hand; but everyone else seems to be dismissing my experiences out of hand, and I find that quite unfair, and quite puzzling for people who claim that they are "open-minded".

(5) That is a rather insulting way of putting it. I am not a "glutton for punishment", but I will stick around until I am certain that at least one person on this thread understands my full point of view regarding religion. Dismissing me just because I am a Catholic doesn't augur well for your American democratic values.

(6) Do you, really? If you are so confident, give me a ten-point summary lf what you think I think with respect to your view of things or with regards to religion and Christianity, and I will gladly show you where you are short.

All I hope to accomplish is to get across my understanding of doctrine to you people, and hopefully cause at least one person to drop at least one prejudice with regards to Christian Doctrine or the Bible or the History of the Church.

But since people here like stereotyping me so much, I haven't at all got to achieve the first step. I am not at all a citizen or resident of the United States of America, so I deeply resent being compared, let alone equated, with your Fundamentalist Churches in your Bible Belt.

webmdave said...

ROFLMAO! Thank you, BP, for the wonderful and delightful video! I'll have to remember that one. I might need it myself.

webmdave said...

Oh and thanks for the compliment, BP. :) However, with that last, s/he got my "Lwaxana Troi" attitude going.

webmdave said...

I 'graduated' from Tom Sawyer at age 10. You should read Mark Twain's last two books: The Mysterious Stranger & his Letters from Earth. Both deal with Heaven. Both are funny to an adult, thinking person. Tear yourself away from those christian apologetic tomes. I could give you a list of 100s of books that effectively contravene them, but I feel sure you would not read them. BTW, have you ever applied to opus dei for membership ? You certainly sound like one of those brain-dead Jesus freaks

webmdave said...

You read all that... yet you STILL do not seem to comprehend the rules of this website.

You are not welcome.

webmdave said...

You are in violation of the rules of the website.

You are not welcome.

WebMaster Dave, please send this troll packing.

webmdave said...

psychman86,

Please ignore this lunatic. People like this will ruin this website as long as we indulge them with an audience. You have nothing to prove to this person. Please let it go.

webmdave said...

I am not a "glutton for punishment", but I will stick around until I am certain that at least one person on this thread understands my full point of view regarding religion.

Understands it or accepts it? Let me ask you something... Have you ever understood Wesleyan? Would you accept it? I don't think my grandfather, no I KNOW he would not accept or even try to understand Catholicism, because in his opinion, Catholicism was not Christian. I have read you say the same of other Xians too. So what makes you religious POV much different when you state others are not Xian? What makes you POV different about non-theists, esp when you have grouped us all together? I seriously doubt you have read many stories around here and as far as I can see, you don't have a clue.

webmdave said...

Amen! If people will ignore the troll, the troll will go away.

This troll is completely delusional.

webmdave said...

David,

although you say "peace", you obviously do not mean it. But nevertheless,

(1) I am too tired to remember which verse this is, but you are mistaking allegory for fact.

(2) And laughing at anyone is virtuous behaviour? And anyway, the word "children" is an interpretation of "young people", which is the original text.

(3) The term "genocide" is only applicable to innocents. And innocents can only be clearly identified in our culture where absolute division-of-labour is practiced. You like calling the Israelites "primitive"; what about the Amalekites? Which do you think is more progressive, the Israelite civilization that forbade murder, restricted slavery and had animal sacrifices instead of human sacrifices; or the Amalekite civilization, which practiced sacrificing of children, full slavery and ritual murder?

Incidentally, if you believe so strongly that the Bible is a work of fiction, why do you bother so much about the welfare of the Amalekites, who by logic are only imagined characters?

(4) They are evil by your standards and in our modern-day context, but not so in the historical and cultural context of the Bible. And also be humble enough to admit that our study of the ancient world is a constant work-in-progress.

webmdave said...

Mriana,

You have misunderstood me then. I do not say that they are not Christian, merely that they are not practicing the Christian lifestyle. That's why I tell all of you not to make assumptions about what I think with regards to Christianity, and Catholicism in particular.

Some Wesleyans will accept that Catholicism is Christianity; others will reject it. No Protestant denomination is uniform, since in each denomination each church is independent from each other except on wide strokes of doctrine.

webmdave said...

You are being a troll here. In fact, everyone who is calling me a troll should look in the mirror, because they are the trolls. I looked at the "Purpose Disclaimer" and it says,

"""
all people are welcome to join the discussions and post their ideas, thoughts,
"""

It also says,

"""
Occasionally members can also get into a trolling action, acting similar to a troll, but their motivation is not to just stir up emotions, but rather they just are just responding with anger or irritation against an opposing poster. This type of exchange doesn't really count as trolling per se, but is just an outburst by an upset member.
"""

I think that I qualify for that. So sorry, your stance against me is disproved by the very rules you are trying to use against me.

webmdave said...

CliffNotes......

;-)

webmdave said...

I have a general question. I've subscribed to this site because I consider myself an exChristian. However, I still am a very spiritual person. Is this site really just for atheists? Is it about only those convening who have totally left behind any form of spirituality? And, are you defining religion different than spirituality? Anyone clarity on the purpose on this site would be appreciated. :) Where I'm at is that I still consider myself a seeker, am not affiliated with any religion, and I like to differentiate between religion (what I consider organized insanity) and spirituality (which mostly is about love and connectedness, for me). I profess and boldly exclaim my ignorance of atheism/agnosticism, that side of the fence. And, I have no charge around it (LOL, unless you're trying to convert me to it in an evangelistic manner ;), like my more fundamentalist friends and family). I hope you know I'm joking there. I'm going with my believe the best and think this is about sharing your experience and pointing out the illogical tendencies that took you away from organized insanity, as I see it. Oh well, I guess I was just wondering a bit more if there are people who frequent this site can relate to the tossing out the crap, but are still interested in some sort of spiritual pursuit that MAKES SENSE and doesn't contradict itself. Thanks all!

webmdave said...

acatholic......I must say, when do you find the time to breathe ?
In my opinion, you are quite light on the non-believing material. May I suggest = " GOD, The Failed Hypothesis " by Victor J. Stenger.....I think that this will answer many of your questions. Also, did you read ALL of
" The God Delusion " ? It is necessary to read it all, and not skim thru it, otherwise you miss information and " the flow " of the book.

You have asked so many questions, in both threads. I certainly am not an expert in any way about the human condition, religious-wise.
Let me just say, that many of us here have been hurt by religion, by belief, in many ways. There are many ex-pastors here who preached the word of the bible for decades, and believed it themselves wholeheartedly. With knowledge, experiences in life, witnessing life around us, and just plain " gut " feelings comes the realization ( for most ) that something is just not "right", something is rotten in the state of Denmark, that surely a loving god could not exist given the countless horrors in the world, past and present.

It's true that there are many loving and good parts of the bible, BUT the greatest percentage of it are lies, distortions, totally conflicting accounts, bloodshed, senseless gore, dictates to humans that make no sense whats-so-ever, ......I could go on and on.
And in regard to something you said before, non-believers are some of the best, caring, good, upright and moral people that there are, because wanting to be good, to do good, and to love your fellow human beings is an inborn trait that we all share. Non-believers are benevolent, and upright because they WANT to be that way, not because they fear going to hell ( which doesn't exist ). I'm not saying that all non-believers are perfect, any more than I would say that all people who are religious are perfect.

One final thing I want to say : The vast majority of non-believers on this planet are scared to death about our planet's future.
( earth/ man-kind/ and animals ) The christian right are wearing blinders to the fact that we need to conserve & protect our little ball in space. Why? Because they all feel deep in their hearts
( wrongfully so ) that they, and other believers will SOON be raptured away, so why bother because if they DID bother, it would only mean that they were making things more " pleasant " for the heathens left behind. This is the sickest form of delusion possible.

Well, I am very very tired, it's way past my bedtime, so I hope that this information has been of help. Please read the book I recommended- you won't be sorry.

webmdave said...

You do not know David. You ASSERT that he does not wish for peace. I ASSERT that you are a smug jerk.

(3) David never said he believes the entire Bible is a work of fiction. You ASSERT that he believes that. David realizes the Bible does record some accurate historical events.

It is amazing how you claim to know precisely what original text of the Bible has to say. No original manuscripts (OT or NT) are known to exist on this earth. You should know that.

webmdave said...

You conveniently forgot to post all the text of these two paragraphs. You only posted what you believe will serve your purpose.

--------------------
This blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion (Christianity) behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs.

Having said that, all people are welcome to join the discussions and post their ideas, thoughts, or even well thought out arguments. Discussions are permitted even if they become heated.
--------------------


You have used the term "Protestant Churches" on this site. You must know Pope Benedict XVI does not recognize any such term. He has explicitly stated that they are nothing more than "ecclesial communities". He does not recognize them as churches at all.

Get your facts straight, Papist.

webmdave said...

Interesting how you think I am a troll when I have not done anything contrary to the disclaimer. All are welcome, but the Xians are not to preach, punch, proselytize, pester, or alike. Also, I fit the description of this site far better than a Xian does. So who's the troll? I don't think it is me.

webmdave said...

Welcome, JustMe.

Our common denominator is that we are ex-christians. Based on my observations, I'd say that while we are mostly atheists, we run the spectrum -- young, old, never-to-deeply infected by religion, atheist, agnostic, pagan, 'just spiritual'. I think there are some liberal xtians around too -- the Universalist/Unitarian type. Many of us started out here as questioning christians. Many are ex-clergy. Lots of us have christian family/friends/co-workers (who may drive us nuts from time to time!). Some of us are ex-catholic but most are from a protestant-fundy/evangelical background.

I was raised catholic but figured out it was just regurgitated myth when I was still in high school. I clung to a general 'good-god' concept for a while, but eventually even that stopped making sense to me. Oh, and my husband became a fundy about 12 years and two kids into our marriage. We're still together with 2 grown kids and 3.5 grandkids.

The other major common denominator I see here is that we are thinkers and we call BS when we see it. ;-)

Looking forward to getting to know you.

BP

P.S. I'm just a regular ol' member here, so my opinion is just that -- my opinion.

webmdave said...

To show how idiotic this whole premise is, one only has to turn it around and say that everything bad or stupid done by an Atheist speaks for all Atheists. After all, you all believe the same thing, that there is no God. So by your rationale, Stalin and Pol Pot speak for you. See how this works?

webmdave said...

Hey Lisa,

Thanks for the kind words. Drop me a line at psychman2050@yahoo.com.

webmdave said...

Your welcome glebealyth. And I had a great playtime today ;-)

webmdave said...

And how do you define "the Christian lifestyle"? I assume it is not Xian perfection as Wesley taught? Where Xians have to be perfect?

webmdave said...

Thanks maestra, and you are correct about people traveling their own path. We are all doing that here. I'm glad I'm here with likeminded folks to make the journey.

webmdave said...

I'll come as a California Raisin--simply because I made a California Raisin outfit to be in a skit with my kids when they were little and have had no place to wear it since.

And I'll bring the ribs.

webmdave said...

Thank You summerbreeze. ;-)

webmdave said...

Xian guest, brays...so I deeply resent[whatever]

If you "so deeply resent" anything here on this website, a website designated for EX-christians, then the simplist solution is to "click off". No one came and found you; you found us. You are not under any obligation to be here. If part, if not all of your mission statement is that you want this site's members to believe that your "experiences" with an invisible, conscious, "trans-natural" being are "real", then I, for one, believe that you believe that said experiences are real. 'Better? 'Hope so, because that's the best you're going to get until/unless you can proffer some objective confirmation that you are in a relationship with an invisible, conscious, "trans-natural" being, aka "Jesus"(or "Allah" for Muslims)

One question before you go(or get banned)...

Do you believe that those who are followers of opposing religions, and even those in denominations of Christianity that oppose Catholicism, believe just as fervently, passionately, and faithfully as you do that they are "right"???? Yes, or no?

webmdave said...

Exactly.

webmdave said...

Welcome Just Me. Hang around awhile and read the next threads. This one has gotten out of hand.

webmdave said...

You put that very well, Psychman.

webmdave said...

Aww dude, did you have to mention Freud. No one in psychology really takes him seriously anymore. The whole ego, id, superego thing has been supplanted by more recent scholarship. Yea, Freud was a big thinker that got some things going but dropping his name like that was just bad form.

Look, if you want to believe in some new agey god concept, go ahead. I don't need it or want it.

I will concede one thing. You are correct that when I left xtianity the social vacuum was difficult to deal with but it was necessary if I was going to be true to myself and find my own path. Look, there are no gods in the universe and even if there are I don't think they really give a shit about us. Plus, why create a vast universe and only create life on a backwater little planet in a sparse area in the milky way?

What you describe is merely the existential vacuum created by rejecting all those imaginary gods. That's a given and yes, all of us had to resolve those conflicts within ourselves but we did and have managed to get through and lo and behold we did not become raving, socially destructive people that the religion warns us will happen when we reject god. I am glad I had the balls to cast off the childish idea of "god". I am who I am. I am my own prime mover!!!

incidently, I do think that godless society would be much better society. We now have societies that have gods and what do we have? Retardation of a scientific understanding of the universe and the natural world. Legislation that seeks to impose other's morality on others. People wanting to blow others up because other's do not conform to their religious views. Yea, a godless society sounds much more palatable. When was the last time an atheist strapped a bomb to themselves to make a point. yea, Not likely to happen

Anyway, Look it sounds like you have a new agey god concept. You have no proof that that entity actually exists and it seems that you are the one with the psychological hocus pocus. You are the one that has to reconcile the natural world with this new agey god and it seems like its more work then its worth.

Tell me what do you get out of believing in this trans-natural god you describe? What are its characteristics? Where the hell has it been while all of humanity wallowed in ignorance and disease. You know, introducing germ theory a long time ago might have helped humanity along. We could have avoided the plagues, etc. But perhaps this trans-natural god has "prime directive" that it cannot interfere. Well, then who needs a god like that? I say just ignore it and let it observe and every once in a while give it the finger just for the hell of it. LOL!!!!

Okay, I grow tired of all this. Good Night.

webmdave said...

Ah, it's all part of our imaginative interpretation of reality. I suppose while I interpret suffering, I can further interpret the non-existence of an xtian god.

webmdave said...

I know sidvicious but I had a few things I wanted to get in before I signed off. LOL!!!

Thanks for your response.

webmdave said...

I haven't read all of the comments, so sorry if this ends up being redundant.

I have to disagree with your point on there being a parallel between Christianity and atheism.

Christianity is very diverse in its denominations, but all of Christendom is united by a core doctrine of original sin, and redemption through Jesus Christ as necessary in order to avoid hell in the afterlife. The details may vary among believers, but it's essentially the same message.

Atheists do not have a uniting doctrine or core belief system. We all have different reasons for coming to the conclusion that gods and the supernatural don't exist (usually through science and logic).

We simply don't believe in god(s), just as we don't believe in Santa Clause or other fictional characters because there is no evidence to support such a claim of existence. It's not a belief system. It's a lack of belief. Without a uniting core doctrine, one atheist cannot very well speak for all other atheists.

webmdave said...

acatholic, why don't you go bcatholic and enjoy your imagination elsewhere.

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