Don't think about it
By Stronger Now
It is often stated by Christians that something must have created the universe and that something is God. It seems they mean that because the universe is sooo vast and soo complex that it needed to be created by an even more complex thing. Never seems to occur to them to think that if complexity and largess require a creator then their god would also be subject to the same type of creating force that they claim the universe needs. So, why do they do this? Perhaps, it just seems unimportant to think about such things when people were going to burn in hell for not trusting the lord. That's the main thing, to trust the lord and not worry about it. "Don't worry about it" In other words: "Don't think about it". That's how I walked my walk in faith. I didn't think about things like that.
Don't think about who created God. God doesn't need a creator, he just is. And so it went. As if my brain was on a self inflicted leash. Never going too far away from the main thing, 'cause the devil was just beyond the reach of the leash. The leash kept me from doubting, which pulls me away from god. It was explained to me that if such things were really bugging me that I shouldn't worry about it because all these things will be explained in heaven. I could find all the answers I wanted, after I died.(fat lot of good that does me now) I just needed to let god lead my life. In other words : "Don't think about it".
I don't want to give the wrong impression to anyone that these types of things are what lead me to deconvert. It's just that these things were put into perspective so quickly after my deconversion that it seems silly that they didn't bother me much before. Who is gods god? Why aren't we to worship it? And who is god's god's god? As I read somewhere on the Richard Hawkins website: "It's gods all the way up and turtles all the way down."
What made god? It's a good question, a reasonable question, one that deserves a reasonable answer that doesn't lead to absurdity if we are expected to believe it and it's premise. I think that the question first leaped from my brain when I was five."If God made everything what made god?" "God always was" is the answer I received then. I didn't wonder as much about it after that. What for? I asked and received an answer. It was a failure of my five year old intellect to not grasp the trickery involved.(why no mention af Occam's razor?) So, perhaps that "leash" wasn't so self inflicted after all.
It is interesting to me that the Bible says that Christians are to be as little children and so they try to relate to a non-believer as if he/she thought as a child as well.
If well reasoned answers cannot be given by the one who claims to know THE TRUTH (tm), then they have no idea of how to determine what the truth really is. Much like a child's claim of a werewolf monster in the closet, it needs to be investigated, not frightfully believed for no other reason than a child's say so. The "monster" could just be a bad dream. Or, it may be a squirrel making a lot of noise. If the child cannot tell a dream from reality, then why should an adult who thinks as a child be trusted to have a firm grasp on what is objectively real? It may actually be a monster but not the one the child thought it was. It doesn't surprise me that most Christians think that if a god were proved that proves the Bible god. Much like a child may still believe that the monster in the closet really was a werewolf, instead of the mundane pedophile found hiding there.
I think this is the problem that a lot of the Christians that come to this site have. They never thought about the implications that their statements have. The logical problems their "answers" create, never occur to them. And why should it? Isn't it better for their faith that they behave in their thinking as they did when they were kids? Imaginary friends and absurd answers is all they seem to be able to concentrate on. I'm no mental giant myself, but I at least try to look at and understand the basic problems with a concept, even if I want to agree with that concept. I'm also not afraid to admit I could be wrong about my understanding of things. It seems that some Christians want to stop inquiry into subjects that question the tenets of their faith. As if the lack of inquiry would make what they believe to be true, actually true.
It is this type of "thinking" that the ID movement is striving for. It in essence is saying that we as humans will never understand how something could have developed, so we might as well give up and say goddidit! It undermines the future potential of human achievement. ID is just a grander version of "Don't think about it", and the proponents of it want to force it upon MY kids.
I want to think about it. I want my kids to think about it. I don't want to ever stop thinking about it. Even if I never find an answer to all of my questions, at least I'll know I did the best I could with what I have, and I didn't fool myself with childish imaginings.
"Don't worry about it", "Don't think about it" or is it just, "Don't think"?
It is often stated by Christians that something must have created the universe and that something is God. It seems they mean that because the universe is sooo vast and soo complex that it needed to be created by an even more complex thing. Never seems to occur to them to think that if complexity and largess require a creator then their god would also be subject to the same type of creating force that they claim the universe needs. So, why do they do this? Perhaps, it just seems unimportant to think about such things when people were going to burn in hell for not trusting the lord. That's the main thing, to trust the lord and not worry about it. "Don't worry about it" In other words: "Don't think about it". That's how I walked my walk in faith. I didn't think about things like that.
Don't think about who created God. God doesn't need a creator, he just is. And so it went. As if my brain was on a self inflicted leash. Never going too far away from the main thing, 'cause the devil was just beyond the reach of the leash. The leash kept me from doubting, which pulls me away from god. It was explained to me that if such things were really bugging me that I shouldn't worry about it because all these things will be explained in heaven. I could find all the answers I wanted, after I died.(fat lot of good that does me now) I just needed to let god lead my life. In other words : "Don't think about it".
I don't want to give the wrong impression to anyone that these types of things are what lead me to deconvert. It's just that these things were put into perspective so quickly after my deconversion that it seems silly that they didn't bother me much before. Who is gods god? Why aren't we to worship it? And who is god's god's god? As I read somewhere on the Richard Hawkins website: "It's gods all the way up and turtles all the way down."
What made god? It's a good question, a reasonable question, one that deserves a reasonable answer that doesn't lead to absurdity if we are expected to believe it and it's premise. I think that the question first leaped from my brain when I was five."If God made everything what made god?" "God always was" is the answer I received then. I didn't wonder as much about it after that. What for? I asked and received an answer. It was a failure of my five year old intellect to not grasp the trickery involved.(why no mention af Occam's razor?) So, perhaps that "leash" wasn't so self inflicted after all.
It is interesting to me that the Bible says that Christians are to be as little children and so they try to relate to a non-believer as if he/she thought as a child as well.
If well reasoned answers cannot be given by the one who claims to know THE TRUTH (tm), then they have no idea of how to determine what the truth really is. Much like a child's claim of a werewolf monster in the closet, it needs to be investigated, not frightfully believed for no other reason than a child's say so. The "monster" could just be a bad dream. Or, it may be a squirrel making a lot of noise. If the child cannot tell a dream from reality, then why should an adult who thinks as a child be trusted to have a firm grasp on what is objectively real? It may actually be a monster but not the one the child thought it was. It doesn't surprise me that most Christians think that if a god were proved that proves the Bible god. Much like a child may still believe that the monster in the closet really was a werewolf, instead of the mundane pedophile found hiding there.
I think this is the problem that a lot of the Christians that come to this site have. They never thought about the implications that their statements have. The logical problems their "answers" create, never occur to them. And why should it? Isn't it better for their faith that they behave in their thinking as they did when they were kids? Imaginary friends and absurd answers is all they seem to be able to concentrate on. I'm no mental giant myself, but I at least try to look at and understand the basic problems with a concept, even if I want to agree with that concept. I'm also not afraid to admit I could be wrong about my understanding of things. It seems that some Christians want to stop inquiry into subjects that question the tenets of their faith. As if the lack of inquiry would make what they believe to be true, actually true.
It is this type of "thinking" that the ID movement is striving for. It in essence is saying that we as humans will never understand how something could have developed, so we might as well give up and say goddidit! It undermines the future potential of human achievement. ID is just a grander version of "Don't think about it", and the proponents of it want to force it upon MY kids.
I want to think about it. I want my kids to think about it. I don't want to ever stop thinking about it. Even if I never find an answer to all of my questions, at least I'll know I did the best I could with what I have, and I didn't fool myself with childish imaginings.
"Don't worry about it", "Don't think about it" or is it just, "Don't think"?
Comments
One of my questions for the Christians (even when I was one) has always been, "If their god could create "man" out of dirt, then why did he need to use a virgin to create his son?"
I also love to ask them, "Why is it so awful to have the same ancestors as monkeys, and so wonderful to have come from dirt?
Gia***<3
The questions go even beyond that, awlheart. eg.: If god willed the creation of the entire universe, including the earth and all the non-human animals that inhabit it, out of nothing, why did he have to use something else (dirt and a rib) to create humans?
When I was a Christian child, I remember never really actually thinking about the deeper concept of god/s; I was too caught up in the never-ending challenges in life.
What I find pretty interesting, is that those who "don't think", are the ones used by religious leaders to promote charitable works. Instead of relying on thinking people to do what is beneficial in society, religions typically rely on the ignorance of their followers to just do what is asked of them; like cattle.
It's almost like saying, that a thinking person can't really be beneficial in society, and we know that to be a patently false accusation.
Thanks for the great read :-)
Thanks awlheart.
Max
It was explained to me that if such things were really bugging me that I shouldn't worry about it because all these things will be explained in heaven. I could find all the answers I wanted, after I died....
If God made everything what made god?" "God always was" is the answer I received then....
It was a failure of my five year old intellect to not grasp the trickery involved.....
ID is just a grander version of "Don't think about it", and the proponents of it want to force it upon MY kids.
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Hi Stronger now,
Firstly, I'm thinking your writing skills have really grown in the past few months!!
Did you perhaps take some night-school writing course or something [smile]?
Anyway, I was always a very inquisitive kid, which probably drove the adults crazy when
I would ask questions like you cite here.
Like the responses you got back from the adults, I also was told things like 'god always was', and when no answer was possible, I was merely told I would find out when I got "UP" to heaven.
Why is heaven always 'UP', and not 'Down' or just 'Out-There'?
If one lives in the "land down under", would heaven still be considered UP?
Seems to me all the souls leaving the earth for heaven (or hell) would all be going in different directions and never meet up, given we live NOT on a flat earth but a globe.
To this day I still hear xtians give me these same answers. I still am told "god always was" and the answers to my 'MILLIONS' of questions will be answered gladly by god when I finally get to meet him.
Some things just never change as we move from childhood to adulthood...LOL
The 'trick' answer to the question of "Where did god come from", never really fooled me as a child. Meaning, I took that answer just to mean that even the grown-up's didn't really know either.
Alas, that left me wanting to know that answer even more, as it seem to be some huge secret that this god wasn't sharing, even with older adults; such as my grandparents.
You are quite correct with your thoughts on Intelligent Design.
There is nothing 'intelligent' about it and it's obvious that if everything was 'designed', then that 'being' should be FIRED from their day-job, as he/she/it did a terrible job of designing things, including the human body.
Teaching this fallacy to young children will surely result in dumbing-down our children and stop them from seeking the real answers to where we came from.
Until one can actually ASK GOD real questions about the universe and get real answers back, then we might as well ask a rock for our answers.
Funny isn't it, that xtians are so sure their god is communicating with them, yet not a single xtian ever seems to ask god a question in regards to science and get a verifiable answer in return.
The one's who claim god is talking to them get back the same fuzzy answers that those who claim to talk to the dead, tend to get back about the afterlife.
Isn't obvious that this god has NO desire to share any information about the universe with his human pets. If there is a god, then we sure must be nothing more than lab-rats to him, as he remains too silent for a god that is suppose to care and love us.
Here's another hard question I wondered about as a teenager, but never got a good answer for.
I had a catholic friend who believed in purgatory and even though I was familiar with this bit of dogma, I had never seen this term in my bible.
So like one would ask those questions about where god came from, I wanted an answer and thought that surely a priest would know the answer and could point this term out for me in my bible.
So we went to visit the local priest one day, towing our bibles in hand.
I will admit that this priest was not only nice enough to interrupt his day for some inquisitive teen boys, but actually took the time and made a sincere effort to TRY and explain purgatory to both of us.
I was fully expecting this priest to open his catholic bible and point out some versus where it spoke of this mysterious purgatory realm.
He never even reached for his bible but instead sat us down and tried hard to 'reason' the concept of purgatory to us instead.
He posed questions to us about what should be done with someone not bad enough to be condemned to hell, but not good enough to enter heaven.
It was obvious to our young minds that it wasn't fair to toss someone in hell's fire just because they were a 'little bad', but that still wasn't proof from the "god's word", which is what I wanted to see with my own two eyes.
This priest made it clear that the bible didn't directly support this purgatory concept, but that this conclusion had come from human reasoning on the subject instead.
I think this was the point in my life when I realized that even a man-of-god didn't have all the answers to my god questions. It was one thing for the adults in my life not to know the answers to my hard questions, but I surely thought at the time that a priest would have to know them. After all, in my mind this priest was connected to the pope himself and the pope was like god's right hand man on earth.....or so I thought back then.
This disappointment that day, of seeing that some answers about god were nothing more than mere human speculation, was the beginning of my long journey to discover what the bible really did say, and did not say as well.
From that point forward I was just not going to be satisfied with not getting answers, nor would I be satisfied with answers that the bible didn't directly support in its text.
I wasn't about to STOP THINKING just because I was expected to swallow the answers I was being fed, by whomever.
I wanted to know with some certainty what us humans really did know about this god, and what was nothing more than human opinion.
It was a long road to finally realize that the answers about god were held by no human, for the simple reason that one can't discover answers about a thing that DOES NOT EXISTS!!
ATF (who figured out there was no Santa in about the same manner...by asking too many hard to answer questions)
Did you perhaps take some night-school writing course or something [smile]?"
Well, thanks ATF! No, I haven't taken any classes, can't afford 'em. I have been useing an online dictionary to try and correct some of the spelling problems I have. Webmaster Dave may have also helped out a bit in that department.
I have also been trying to take more time and read, re-read, and re-re-read, my postings looking for the mistakes.
As far as the rest goes, I have been given the greatest advice from my wife, clair. She told me to stop calling the christians who comment here, morons.(although, I still do from time to time) It serves little purpose to do so and it is much better to explain to them why they are morons so they can see it themselves.
By reading the posts by you, Jim Arvo, Dave8, Boomslang, webmaster Dave, and a whole bunch of others, I pick up on phrases, concepts and techniques to write my thoughts more clearly. I also have a desire to understand some of what is still "over my head".
I'm going to have to thank Dave the webmaster for this site. I am learning so much in so many different ways. I hope to use what I learn here in cyber world, out in the "meat world". I don't get out much. But, I hope with my new vocabulary and clearheadedness I can change that.
Thanks again!
"This disappointment that day, of seeing that some answers about god were nothing more than mere human speculation."
Ain't that the statement of the millineum?
HUMAN FUCKING SPECULATION !!!!!!!
That is all anything and everything is about religion. It's just some humans do such a great job of acting as if "they" have the real truth thus duping the non thinking majority.
Great Letter Stronger Now. Well written.
xrayman
Yes, that's the kind of being 'as a little child' that I prefer to be. The kind that's always asking, "But why? But why?" :)
A "creator" outside of "creation" is a superfluous notion at best.
My agnostic side would agree with your statement. However, my more dominant atheist side would not, because Occam's razor applied to this notion neuters it.
A "creator' outside of "creation" that is not subject to the laws of it's own creation, could also have a creator not known to exist outside of it's existance as well. And also not subject to it's "laws" of existence.
One can postulate to infinity.
Much like a child may still believe that the monster in the closet really was a werewolf, instead of the mundane pedophile found hiding there.
Of course, that is one of the possibilities
[stronger now: "One can postulate to infinity."]
Of course, that is one of the possibilities
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Stronger,
I'm really liking this 'new-improved-you' I'm seeing in post lately !!
Billster,
Not so long ago I made a comment, where I wondered if the xtian god didn't do certain things with humanity, because he was subject to his own boss-god, who may not have agreed with his ideas about us humans etc..
No, I don't believe in that possibility myself, but it sure might explain a few things as to the xtian god's behavior in certain human affairs throughout history.
Obviousy all of us can speculate all we want, and never arrive at a conclusion about the existence of any god(s) out there, but as far as I'm concerned, there could be 666 super-gods out there in the vast universe, but if none of them are making DIRECT contact with the humans of earth, then their existence has no bearing on our lives, either now or in any normal future we might have.
Only if one of them happens to show up and start making demands and such of us, would I start worrying about if they exist out there or not.
As things stand now, the present day gods that some of humanity are claiming exist, not only have no bonified proof they really do exist, but also do not seem to intercede in the affairs of humankind, nor of the earth itself for that matter.
Regardless of whether they exist inside or outside of our known physical laws, there should be some physical or empirical evidence, that they are changing the natural course of events here on earth, and I have yet to see anything realistic that would indicate this is happening.
What good is any god who is remote to us humans, unless at some point that god starts to pay us visits and make 'himself' known beyond the shadow of any doubt.
My pet rock surely does as much as some remote god is presently doing for humanity, so I surely wouldn't be praying, kneeling or otherwise worshipping a hands-off god that might exist a billion light years from our earth.
Unless we could do so, and would wish to make contact with such a remote god, then I'm sure not going to worry about pleasing such a hands-off god being.
Oh yeah, and faith based on what some FEEL, sure means ZIPPO to someone who puts their cognitive brain ahead of their emotions in deciding such important matters.
ATF (who thinks any remote super-god wishing to make contact with others, should blink some huge stars out there in a Morse-code style message)
I am also having a hard time with my wife (she is JW). She agreed before marriage that our child would not go to church and now she is going back on that. She said we could give both sides, while I rather let my child decide for herself. Xtians tell me it will never work out.
Riley
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