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5/26/2002                                                                                       View Comments

Proof that there is no god

Some people falsely believe that it is impossible to prove the unexistence of anything, but they are wrong. It can, for example, be proved that there is no even prime number greater than two. Other people use to say that there is no way to prove if there is a god or not, or even that we cannot get any knowledge of god (agnosticism). My opinion as a strong atheist, is that we can in fact prove that god does not exist in the physical world. This document is my attempt to do so.

Definition of the word "god"
To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being. This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Some people (Einstein for instance) believe in a god who is not a personal god, but a Spinozan kind of god. I claim that this god is not a god! To say that god is universe - by getting knowledge of the universe we get knowledge of god - is to redefine the meaning of the word god. This has nothing to do with the word god as it was defined by the "primitive" cultures which preceded our present civilization. He can be excluded with Occam's razor, and most important: Such a god does not hear prayers.

If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Many people justify their faith with god as an explanation. What is the meaning of life? Where does time and space come from? Who created the physical constants? et cetera. Because we lack knowledge of these things - and maybe never will, since they are questions like "what is the color of a second?" or "how does sound taste?" - god is there as an explanation.

Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.

The qualities of an omnipotent god
If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.

He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?


The theodicé problem
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

The ontological evidence against gods
Neccesary in a god is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a god.

Not any of the existing religions can provide such a god. How do we know if there are no undiscovered beings worthy our submission? Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against god holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.

There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against god, that you can do to try the existence of god. Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no god.

The meaning of the word existence
What do we mean by existence? The very definition for existence is that a thing is said to exist if it relates in some way to some other thing. That is, things exist in relation to each other. For us, that means that something is part of our system ('The known world'). God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than god because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than god then either god cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or god is the known world, in which case, by definition, god is not a god.

Occam's razor
Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in english: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labour which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent god. A god which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in it self has it's own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning. Most theists agree that god has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created god's nature? If we just accept that god has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?

God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.

Some things are impossible to do:
There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If god were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.

Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.

Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes
Another way to disprove the almighty god is that omnipotence leads to paradoxes. Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

The void creator
If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

We would never notice god
This is not an evidence against god, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a god who stands above time.

If god stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see god in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This god is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor

If somebody would pray to god and god would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides god would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of god.

Even worse: For every prayer said, god has not acted, or else the prayer had been undone. This means that the more people have prayed, the more bad things in the world have persisted. Therefore, the more you pray, the more evil persist (provided god exists and stands above time).

A much better way to change the world is to do it yourself. Then you would know that it was you who made the world better. The effect of prayers are not scientific provable, whilst the effect of actions are. Instead of praying you should set to work at improving your situation. This is what humanism is about.

Nobody really believes in god
Schopenhauer once said something like:

"Man can do anything he wants, but he can not want whatever he wants."

My thesis is that people who claim to believe in god do not really do so. They just wish to believe in god. They somehow feel that their lives are meaningless without god, so they choose to close their eyes to evidence against the existence of god. The christian view is well expressed by Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Religious liberty can not justify freedom for divergence. This freedom does not aim at any freedom relative truth, but concerns the free descicion for a person to, according to his moral inclinations accept the truth." (The times, June 27 1990, p9)

It's as clear as it can be! For a christian you accept the "truth" according to your moral, and then have to be strong in your faith to keep your believes. You decide a priori what to believe and then try to convince yourself and others that it is true. But theists don't really believe, because to believe something is to take it for true, and just like in Nazareth's song Sold my soul there is no sign of god in the world. When you have the evidence for and against something your sub-conscious works on it and makes a conclusion. The process can't be affected by your will, only delayed or suppressed, which will lead to psychoses, and those are far more common among (catholic) priests than any other group..

I have personal experience of this believing what you want to believe. When I was a child I believed in a lot of crazy things. I thought my stuffed animals were intelligent. I believed in Santa Claus. I thought there were monsters under my bed at night. I even believed in god after I heard some of the tales from the old testament. Then I became older and realized that these things weren't true. When I look back I don't understand how I could believe in them, it must have been that I wanted to do so. (Except for the monsters, which had to do with fear of the dark)

When many religious people are confronted with criticism of their religion they convert to atheism or agnosticism. Examples of people who became critical to the dogmas of christianity are Charles Darwin (Darwin, 1958), Dan Barker (Barker, 19??), Ernest Renan plus many former "Catholic modernists" in the 19th century such as Alfred Loisy and Antonio Fogazzaro (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). The Catholic modernism evolved in the late 19th century and was banned in 1907 by the Vatican (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). These people are to me clear evidence that an enlightened person will after considering the facts, reject christianity and other religions that contain deities.

Note: This is not the "Plead to authority" fallacy. I'm talking people here, who were trying to prove the existence of god and turned atheists. They did not want to do this, but had to after reading a lot of books and doing a lot of thinking on the subject.

Epilogue
I have tried to define the only god that can be philosophically justified and show some examples why this god cannot exist. After reading this document you may object and say that god is beyond human understanding and can't be defined in scientific terms. This is the view of agnosticism.

If god is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of god? (or the bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of god, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?

If there is no way to know this but to trust people who claim they have had "divine experiences" there is no way to tell true from false prophets. One has to give up his free mind and follow the authority of a dictator. Remember also that it is the person making a positive claim who has to prove it.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." -- Bertrand Russell

"We shall not believe anything unless there is reasonable cause to believe that it is true" -- Ingemar Hedenius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References

Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception (1991)

Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith - From preacher to atheist (19??)

Charles Darwin, The Autobiography of Charles Darwin 1809-1882. With original
omissions restored. Edited with appendix and notes by his grand-daughter Nora Barlow. The only complete edition.
(1958)


Paul Davies, God and the new physics (1983)

The following was posted to the Message Board in response to this article. I thought the writer made some good points so added it here

I really want to think more about this and learn from everyone's comments (as my own thoughts are developing on this). I'd appreciate everyone's comments and am sure I will learn a lot from them.

> Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time?

Is creation necessarily an event in time ? I realize that it seems ludicrous to suggest otherwise, but the statement in itself implies that without time and space there can be no existence or perception. Being creatures that are aware of only this existence in a dimension where time and space are integral to every thought and concept we have, it would be very hard to believe there is a reality where the rules of time and space are not so rigid (or exist at all).

Example: Prior to space and time, God decided to create space and time (and everything in it ; the universe). Even our language is designed in a way which makes it difficult to even discuss a reality that is not based on space and time. To say the word 'prior' in the first sentence implies there was a prior - a prior to the creation of space and time. How can we talk about before and after without time ?? The whole thing is paradoxical.

So does that mean that in a reality where time and space don't exist, all events happen at once ? What does 'at once' even mean without time ? And what does the word 'all' mean without space ? Usually, when we say all we are summing a group of things the things are separated by space.

Very frustrating. So it seems to show that there is no world without time and space.

Then we have quantum physics. I don't profess to be an expert about the subject, but it is interesting. If you happen to believe that the physicists of this world are knowledgeable (I do) then you might have a difficult time reconciling common sense with the world of quantum physics where the building blocks or our universe can exist in various states. Things at the subatomic level can exist in several places at once. Things can have multiple outcomes (electron can be detected at point B or point A depending on who looks at it and how). Experiments have been performed that seem to indicate that something you do right this instant can affect (at the subatomic level) something in the past. Light has recently been 'frozen' inside a structure and then released to become light again (much later).

Since we're all made of subatomic particles, our bodies - the whole universe is based on things that have no concrete location (space) and can exist in multiple places at once (space and time). Couple this with the experiment where things in the past can be affected with things you do today (time) and I'm back to being frustrated again. My perception in daily life seems to indicate a world of absolutely nothing but one based on time and space yet the physicists are demonstrating that the rules of time and space are not so absolute.

A part of me likes your (Dave) argument because it just makes sense. But in light of all the rules of quantum physics, it doesn't seem as cut and dry anymore. Maybe we'll discover that it is possible to create time and space without having to exist in time and space. That there's a reality outside of that. ??? That time and space is more of a perception or a side effect of simply existing in the universe in which we inhabit ???

I'm sure this post seems confused (as I usually am) and contrived but these are real suspicions that I have. But as a non-believer in God, If I had to pin myself down to a religion or belief it would have to be one of science. I know it's not a God based religion (more of the Einstein type of religion) but I use it to try to help me decide where I might go after I die and why I'm here - and that seems to be a major part of organized religion.

So when I hear about the implausibility of a God out of time and space creating time and space, I have to take issue with it. It makes just as much sense as a purely scientific theory of everything just existing because it just exists. Or everything being created (including time - including the law of thermodynamics ?) due to the big bang (essentially something being created from nothing). Even scientific answers just seem to answer one question with a different one.

So, I don't think it's too surprising that people turn to religion to get answers/comfort, but I hope they consider there's a fascinating reality right here that they can see, hear, touch and feel.

ERG

255 comments:

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Anonymous said...

This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general.

Anonymous said...

To the person who said this:

"This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general. "

Buddhism is NOT the ONLY religion that doesn't coflict with Darwin's theory of evolution. Catholicism doesn't either. You don't have to take the Bible LITERALLY when it says that God created Adam and Eve as the first people. I am a Catholic and the Bible is not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Many of the stories of the Old Testament are just stories to teach lessons.

Anonymous said...

And to everyone who doesn't believe in God...where is your proof that he doesn't exist? Just because you can't see something does not mean that it isn't there. You can't see feelings such as love, but you definitely know that it is there. And talking about time and stuff like that...it can't just keep going back and back and back infinitely. Something or someone had to start it all. If you want you could check out Thomas Aquinas's five proofs that God exists.

Anonymous said...

"We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?"

God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to.

Jim Arvo said...

(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

.:webmaster:. said...

"God wanted a perfect world..."

So even a god can't get what he wants. And when he doesn't get it, he gets pissed.

HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL...

You get the point.

Dave8 said...

Anonymous 3/13/2006 10:23 PM: "God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to."

I'll say it again, seems like many people want to "stuff" words in a gods proverbial mouth, thus, elevating themselves to a "god" status. Makes one wonder, if the person speaking on a god(s), behalf somehow has personal visits as well, in order to discuss matters left out of the bible.

Anonymous, you obviously haven't read the bible and pondered on free will that much, or you'd realize, that no one has free will, if they are born into "sin". Simply put, according to tradition, we were born into a pre-destined situation of sin, where an omniscient god knows whether of not we will choose to follow them or not, hence, no free will. Oh, sure, we may "think" we are making a choice in life, but... not really, according to original sin... according to much of religion, we are just living out our lives, exactly as an omniscient god knows we will. What a person thinks in novel, is a done deal in a gods' mind, thus, as humans we may theoretically think we are experiencing free will, but... to an omniscient god, the book of life has already been written, hence, why worry about what a person can't control. Many religionists are so spun up trying to control events outside of this universe, in their own mind, while letting their current real day-to-day life wither away.

Acts 13:48 - "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Rom.8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

2 Th.2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

2 Tim.1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Eph.1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Jude 4 - "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

By the way, if all mankind is predestined, then obviously all the suicide, murder, mass genocide, natural disasters, etc., are already known events, and god knowingly allows them to occur. Obviously, he/she/it feels there is some benefit in allowing pain and suffering to occur in this life, without our free will to make a change.

God's Plan, well, according to the bible...

Rom.9:11-22 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

God "created" some to honor, and yet others to dishonor him/her/it. Then, of course, the finale, where those who were created to dishonor, were created for no less than examples to be set for others, as "god" fits them for destruction, to show his/her/its godly powers. Seems like god, uses coercion, manipulation, and outright deceit to keep those who will honor, in line.

Based on the christian view of a "god", I'd have to say I'm an Atheist, but, hey, I just don't believe in the christian concept of a god. The old codger just seems to be too self-centered and concerned with his/her/its ego, I'd go as far as the christian version of a god being narcissistic, but, that's just my opinion.

Regarding, god and satan, if we as humans were given free will, and satan was also, then... whose to say, satan didn't inspire the KJV bible. Obviously, tradition shows that satan was around long before the bible was written. It would at least explain all of the contradictions, atrocities, etc.

Onanite said...

Xtian god has all sorts of limits... MD, oh he can't heal that ... MS oh he can't heal that....limbs gone, oh he can't heal that.

From what I have seen of Pat Roberts "healings" on the 700 club, god can get rid of headaches, that's about it.

(snicker) So can I.

Onanite

.:webmaster:. said...

God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.

Anonymous said...

If you are so certain god doesn't exist, and think everyone should open their eyes to "reality", then what makes you so certain I believe in your "scientific evidence", there just theories, just because you cant see God, doesnt mean he doesnt exist, it's called faith. Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life

Dano said...

Anonymous wrote:

"............Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too?........"

Anonymous! "perfect organs?" Are you a guy or a girl?

IF concave, please post your e-mail address. If your organs are perfect, I want to hear more!

Dan (Just curious!)

boomSLANG said...

Young anony takes a break from X-box to say: "...just because you cant see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, it's called faith."

Let's see....you can't "see" unicorns, the Great Pumpkin, the Easter Bunny, elves, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, imps, the Boogieman, Osiris, and/or a bazillion other "gods", either. I suppose you have "faith" in those, too?

BTW, science doesn't deal in absolutes--it's "only" a "theory" that you are breathing oxygen.(obviously, not enough) lol

Bentley said...

We happen to live on a planet in this corner of the Milky way Galaxie, we have no way of knowing if there are other planets inhabited in this galaxie.

Now the Milky Way Galaxie is just one of an estimated over 125 Billion other galaxies that exist in outer space, so to think that we are the only living beings in the Universe is just based totally on ignorance.

That's the reason that the Bible writers invented a God, because they could not comphrend that there were even other planets in outer space.

What amazes me is that anyone could still believe what some stupid jackasses wrote over 2000 years ago, not having practically any knowledge about any one thing.

Pull Your Head Out Nony said...

Anony: "And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life"

Ah, another weenie who believes we were made of perfect mud, with a potters wheel in the middle of a perfect garden. Obivously, nony, seems to have overlooked the obvious extra organs we have, that aren't really serving functions, except to get us through a critical point during our evolutionary challenges, with our environment.

Santa says, people really don't exist, they're just magical creatures with perfect organs.

south2003 said...

.:webmaster:. said...
God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.

I went back to the pancake thread and found this posting -- absolutely hilarious!!!

hmmmm.... maybe he should stick an apple in Falwells big mouth and have bacon to go with em. If he keeps eaten this crap he'll never get off the ground when rapture comes .... Here i am Jesus ! ... bounce ...bounce...Help me Lord !....pull
tarotpoker, 11.20.2003, 12:45 am #

Anonymous said...

Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late?
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?
I am sorry you do not believe in the Lord your God. I will pray for you. I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour and It did put a stop to all my doubts. Thanks to God!

J. C. Samuelson said...

"Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late?
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?"


We did believe, and ultimately rejected Pascal's Wager.

"I will pray for you."

Don't bother. I know you probably think this is a nice thing to say, but really if you think about it, it's not. You're saying there's something wrong with the person you're offering to pray for.

If someone said, "I will sacrifice a chicken for you, that you might believe," would that make you feel loved and cared for?

"I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour..."

Did you lose a limb and have it magically replaced overnight, or something equivalent? If not, I rather suspect there is a natural reason for your recovery.

Anonymous said...

I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God. He was all I had left, and He was still there. He did pick me right up and I was healed spiritually and physically! So was my aunt. I will keep my sickness a secret for now, since you are so defensive about my faith in the Lord our God.

I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord.
I can tell you this, I really learned the hard way. It is the way you will learn as well, because of your attitude. You should know I felt similar to you for many years.

Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy.

The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult.
I never knew there was a webiste like this in cyberspace. I have to say, I am shocked. I sent this link it to all my friends who love the Lord, to see what they think about this site.

Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be safe by faith, then later to find out God exsists because you finally have come face to face with Him. Most of us relise that if we wait that long, it will be to late.
What will you have lost by believing in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

Love will conquer all. Have a great Labor day to all!

Bentley said...

Please keep in mind you're trying to have faith in invisible beings and souls which no one has ever seen, how can humans describe something that has never been seen?

I know you will say the wind exists, and it is invisible, but there are not volumes and volumes describing the wind,ok?

So you're taking the word of people that lived over 2000 years ago that they wrote about that are invisible and have never been proven and never been seen, atleast the wind can be proved to be real, whereas the things you're pretending to believe in, cannot be proved and never will be proved. All you have is a belief, nothing more, it's not much, it's something you wish for, thats all.

We're though with wishing and hoping and living in an fantasy mind delusion, but you're not.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"...when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."

Everyone needs to be propped up from time to time, and some of us chose religion. But that is what it is - a prop. I used it, and ultimately discarded it.

There is a psychological benefit to be had from religion for those who need it. It's even been known to make some people behave better (my grandfather wouldn't know how to act otherwise - or says he wouldn't). However, not everyone needs it, and there are those who prefer living without it.

When religion turns people into evangelists, witnessing to all and sundry because they believe they've found the Absolute Truth™ it becomes a problem. When they visit ex-Christian websites and lecture former believers, it's a problem. When they ignore the fact that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, it's a problem. You get the idea.

As for Pascal's Wager (did you follow the link?), it is a pathetic reason to believe in something. By that logic, I should believe in each and every god just in case I might be wrong about one of them. Even you can see how ridiculous that would be, can't you?

"The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult."

I understood your intent, but wanted to point out that it is also condescending. To illustrate (again):

"You shouldn't believe in the Christian god. You should follow the Great Pumpkin. I will circle the patch thrice 'round clockwise and sacrifice a canteloupe, spilling its nectar over the ground. It's widely known that doing such a thing releases great power."

Since you're not a Great Pumpkin follower, I'm doing something on your behalf because you are in some way deficient. Does this make sense to you?

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous fundamentalist said:

"I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."

Correction--you cried out to YOUR "God". Remember, you are not in church giving your testimonial to the congregation, so please--- don't start rattling off a bunch of presuppositional biblio-babble, because it means jack here. Right to the chase: You have zero evidence that your personal experience involves anything outside of your head. None. We are not "angry at God" anymore than you are angry at Shazam. We are, however, concerned that grown adults believe in talking snakes, a flat earth, ghosts, monsters, bloody rivers, unicorns, winged "body-guards", talking vegetation, sky domes, flaming chariots, swimming hammers, people made out of dust, and finally.... that they will live eternally in a blissful retirement center in the clouds.

"I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord."

Okaaaay, prayer is useless..."use"--"LESS"..i.e..."ineffective". It is ancient superstition, nothing more. And again, we are not "against the Lord", because there IS no "Lord". If you still feel convinced that "prayer" works, then please----pray that we are all saved and this website is closed down by high-noon tomorrow. Good "luck".

Fundy: "Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy."

Really?..there is "hope" for us? Why thank you, you brainwashed condescending prick. Again, your Gawd is non-existant, and we don't need you and your ilk's petty patronizing pitty. Unless you have evidence for your biblegawd, I suggest you don't come back.

Fundy: "Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be saf......blah, blah, blah, BLAH, BLAHHH!"

Boy-0-boy, how original.. Pascal's Wager... or, believe "just in case". That shows just how little confidence you have in your mythological conviction, which is surprising for all the ministering you've been doing.

Anonymous said...

What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man. I expect that from someone who says that there is no God...that there is no creator of the universe etc....

However it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God, from those who are convinced there is no Eternal Father, the Lord God.

And it will continue till the end of times. And it will get worse until then.

So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it.

As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it.

AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?

I will work on this. Take care. And by the way I do hope this site stays up..because it is easier to find you all. LOL!

boomSLANG said...

Fundonymous said: "What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."

What I see here is person who has become all shocked and indignant because an EX-Christian website has people who don't believe in Christ.(WTF?) Go grab a twelvepack of beer and head down to your local AA affiliate and see if you are received with a warm welcome. Tell them that they are "misinterpreting" the warning label, and the reason that they've lost their jobs, family, houses, and everything else, is because they haven't been drinking "Godweiser"---the only "true" alcoholic beverage.

Fundymouse said: "So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it."

Please provide evidence for this absurd notion.

Fundonymous said: "As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it."

Yes, you are "convinced" and "feel strongly", just like any Sunni Muslim is convinced and feels strongly about Muhammad. Now convince us, with empirical evidence, that he's wrong and you are right.

Fundymouse said: "AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"

A "sign"? Hell no, I want him to appear, IN THE FLESH---like he appeared to "hundreds" of people 2000 years ago---then, being the "miracle working all-loving God" Jesus is, I want him to go to St. Jude's Children's hospital and put it out of business, completely healing every child in there, so they can all go home with their parents where they belong. I won't hold my breath, though.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"What I see here...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."

Heaping ridicule on an idea is not the same as personal animosity. I have no animosity toward you personally. You might be the nicest person in the world. Your faith is your choice, and I have no problem with that either.

You came to a site which is filled with former believers, who have already heard or spoken the same words you have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of times. Combined with the continual barrage of nonsense provided courtesy of T.V. evangelists, family members and friends, the Internet, and of course the endless stream of Christian posters on this website, it gets pretty tiresome. Strong reactions are highly likely. Reading more of the threads could've told you this, and perhaps informed you of a better approach, or warned you not to approach at all.

"...it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God..."

You are not being persecuted.

persecute(v)
1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) Merriam-Webster

No one here harassed you. No one here is punishing you in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict you. If you are suffering because we've disagreed, then I'd suggest growing a thicker skin.

When your ideas are being criticized, it is not persecution. When you are censored, restricted, and/or physically harmed in order to inhibit your practice of your faith or because of it, that's persecution.

"The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"


Signs, signs, everywhere a sign...

Well, to hear Evangelicals tell it, all any of us has to do is wait about 50 years or so. Then Jesus Christ will make a miraculous appearance in the clouds, coming down to Rapture His church away - or kick off the Tribulation, I forget. All this with no prayers required!

Anonymous said...

By that time it will be too late. I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes.

Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)

When you speak of the one and only God, with such lack and reverence thereof... others, like I, hold so dear to our hearts, because of the Love we have for the Lord. It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces.

I know this is a long shot...BUT..
Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?
I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world.

And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world? You know typically most people cry out to the Lord at that point. Because they know that is all they can do.

Just curious.
By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord.

I know alot of people who don't believe in God..I just never saw it put like this is all.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous,

This is a private website with a clearly stated purpose. Have you read the site disclaimer?

Regardless, what you've done here is barge in the door and begin to aggressively preach. You've basically crashed a private party that is being held in a public park. Then, after setting up your pulpit in that party, one of the people who was invited to the party rebuked your rudeness.

Now, how in the world is being rebuked for rudeness persecution? I guess if I were to crash your church on Sunday morning, and start disrupting the service, and as a result was thrown out of the building, then I could claim persecution too.

Seriously, don't play the persecution card unless you're actually being persecuted for your religion. There are people in the world suffering persecution for their religion, but there is no such thing as persecution in America. There are chruches on every corner, preachers on every television channel and religious books overflowing every bookstore. Don't mistake rejection of your religion by someone, or even loathing of your religion by someone, as persecution, because it is NOT persecution.

However, if you'd like to be persecuted, please go to a country where religion dominates the government, like in the Middle East, and start preaching. I'm sure that there you'll find the persecution you're looking for.

Anonymous said...

So thanks for the breakdown on persecution.
As far as barging in, I was surfing the net when I came across your site.
I found it interesting is all.
I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?
I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical.
photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo.
Clearly it is down out of hatred.

Jeff was giving me feedback is all.
I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good.

.:webmaster:. said...

"I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."

The same reason they leave any false cult for good.

Dave8 said...

Anony: "I found it interesting is all. I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"

Do you believe in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? More notably, the portion that prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that...

1-Establish a state religion or prefer certain religion (the "Establishment Clause");

2-Prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause");

3-Infringe the freedom of speech;

4-Infringe the freedom of the press;

5-Limit the right to assemble peaceably;

Now, obviously, if religionists use their guaranteed first amendment, specifically, the number two freedom above, to attack the entire U.S. citizenry's right to first amendment freedoms, then don't you think that it is at a minimum - hypocritical. A religionist using their freedom of speech to deny everyone elses'. The really diabolical insight, is seeing the unrestrained search for power by entire religious organizations, in order to control others.

Anony: "I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical."

Well... flesh peeling off of a pregnant woman being burned on a stake/pole as a "witch", using the Old Testament for support, in order for christian leaders to cleanse them of their diabolical demon that just has to be there, would be more sickening... Even more sickening, is hearing someone use the OT to show their support of such atrocities.

Anony: "photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo."

Immorality? That's what the majority vote discerns. What may be considered "moral", might well, not be "right".

For instance, its against the law to give medication prescribed by a doctor to another person who has the same medical needs, even if the other person doesn't have the money/means to acquire the exact same medication.

Its "moral" to follow the law, is it not? Is it "right", to watch a little child die in agonizing pain, in order to be moral? What is considered "morally" right, by a majority of people, or by a legislature, doesn't make it "right". One would hope, that the two would meet somewhere, e.g., the law, and what is right. Perhaps, courts were created to find a middle ground.

Anony: "I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."

I'd like to know, why you don't believe in Santa Clause as a real figure who involves themselves in your life, on a yearly basis.

Anonymous said...

I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here.
St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when.
So most children have fun with that idea. I did. The fake Santa is just a festive fun thing. Then you get older and your parents tell you it was a child thing. So what?

God is much different. There is no comparrison. That is rediculous to even insinuate.

Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus.
Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society.

Many peope don't get out of cults. They are so weak minded that they are trapped in their own mind.
I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that.
Free will is the gift.

The bottom line is you and I are by free will excersing our gift.
But in the end only one will win.

So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?

boomSLANG said...

Fundonymous said: "St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint."

Um, evidently, you don't grasp the "Santa" analogy, do you?. I know twenty Mexicans named "Jesus", so-the-f%ck what?.....people named "Jesus" are "real" people...SO?...that doesn't mean that the biblical Jesus did miracle, one, let alone that he is a "God". So your little "history of Santa" is totally irrelevant.

Fundonymous: "Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."

Listen up, Einstein---currently, your President is a Christ-sucker just like you, as well as the Senate and House being mostly right-wing conservatives(And I don't mean ISLAMIC conservative). Anyway, please tell me---how is THAT "communist"?

Fundonymous: "Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."

Anon---just the fact that you lump Atheists in with devil worship shows that you have zero clue what Atheism even means. People who worship a man with horns and a pitchfork are wasting just as much time as people who worship a man nailed to a stick. It's ALL mythology---legendary "thinking". And your assertion that Atheists make, um...a "more sicker society"? I don't see any evidence of that, but I certainly see evidence that religious people make a "more stupider" society ;)

J. C. Samuelson said...

"I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes."

I think I've posted this elsewhere, but essentially God Himself would have to appear in such a way that the appearance could be independently verified by a very large and diverse number of people, including scientific and governmental organizations.

However, that would not eliminate questions. The God described in the Bible exhibits behavior that could easily be described as petty and tyrannical. Perhaps if Oprah could interview God?

"Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)"

Where is this implied? If you're talking about the mildly hostile reception you received, that in no way implies you will be prohibited from posting. At least, not that I know of.

"It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces."

It may be easy to say, but that doesn't make it true. It's easy for me to say that Christianity
teaches hatred, but that doesn't make it true.

This is not an anti-God or anti-Christ site. That all-or-nothing or 'if-you-aren't-for-us' attitude fails to take into account that many here simply lack belief, and/or feel that religion is a pastime of limited use, or worse. In other words, if this site is anti- anything, it's anti-Christianity.

And what examples can you provide that a lack of belief in God breeds 'diabolical forces.'?

"Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?"

No. Such myths have no basis or application in the real world.

"I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world."

Evil forces might include those that commit acts of mass murder, such as genocide, for any reason. Other evil forces might include those that seek to take away or restrict basic human freedoms, such as the freedom of religion or of speech. That includes religions or speech that we don't agree with (within reason).

Incidentally, I think it's safe to say that no one here would advocate legislating your right to believe or speak as you wish away from you. Again, within reason.

"And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world?"

Well, assuming I'm capable of rational thought, I'll be thinking about my life, hoping that I've been able to leave a positive legacy for my daughter and others to follow. I don't fear death itself or what, if anything, might come after.

"...typically most people cry out to the Lord..."

That's a very sweeping statement, and of dubious merit. Most Christians or those raised in a Christian culture may do that, or perhaps think about doing so. Those raised in societies in with other majority beliefs probably don't. This is a significant number of people (between 4 and 5 billion, I think).

By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord."

Yes you did, and I think we understand that. However, if you were hoping that it would be in some way persuasive in leading us back to your faith or lend greater credulity to your arguments, you were mistaken.

"I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"

If you're referring to the influence of the devil or demons, I'd say no because outside the Bible there's no indication such things exist. If you are implying something else, please be clear.

As for devil worshippers, I don't know if any have posted here or not. Chances are at some point one or more of the visitors to the site have been or still are devil worshippers. All the same, if they started posting about the reality of the devil they would likely be treated to the same level of skepticism as any Christian.

To believe in the devil is to give credulity to the Christian Bible (and some other religious texts), which is something most here probably wouldn't do.

"Clearly it is down out of hatred."

To which items are you referring? Have you considered the possibility that some of the items were done simply in order to poke fun?

"I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here."

Which points? In any case, everyone will have a different answer for why they don't believe or left the faith. In other words, it's subjective. So, if you were hoping for one catch-all answer for everyone, your hope was in vain.

St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when."

Many - not all - myths have some basis in real events and/or people. That doesn't diminish the fact that they are myths, though. Santa Clause is a myth, plain and simple.

"God is much different. There is no comparrison."

I would agree. There is even less basis for a belief in God, because there is no evidence such an entity has ever existed to by mythologized in the same manner as St. Nicholas. The only 'evidence' that every Christian can point to with agreement is the Bible, which is a book written, handled, transmitted, and translated by human hands, and full of mythological imagery.

Any individual witnesses to God's reality based on personal experience is at best anecdotal. Since such things are highly subjective (because they are so personal), none of it can ever be independently verified.

We may be able to measure brain activity that correlates to certain religious practices (such as prayer), but since this brain activity occurs whether one is a Christian or a Hindu this isn't evidence for God. All it proves is that religious practice in some way influences, or is influenced by, physical responses in the brain.

"Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."

Governments are corrupt because money and power corrupts, not because of a particular ideology. Our government is corrupt and most of the top officials profess Christianity as their faith.

By the way, which decade are you living in? Communist influence? C'mon...

"Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."


They do? Ever been to Sweden? How about Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, South Korea, France or Germany, Britain, Canada, or Israel? Each of these societies is in the Top 20 places in the world in which people claim/admit to atheism or agnosticism. See here.

Admittedly, there are some countries in the list that suffer from poverty or are governed by morally corrupt governments. However, this isn't necessarily a reflection on the people who live there. Vietnam, for example, suffers from poverty brought on by Socialism, and is ruled with more or less an iron fist. However, my father has visited several times and speaks mostly about the friendliness and strong family-oriented psychology of the people themselves.

Also see Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies for some interesting reading. Of course, correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's still eye-opening.

"I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that."

Religious adherents are willing participants in their own entrapment, whether it is within a cult or what is considered a mainstream religion. They are free to leave any time they wish, but usually don't wish to. That's the beauty of brainwashing.

"But in the end only one will win."

Life is a competition for survival perhaps, not about who is right.

"So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?"

Not in the least. I admit I would prefer to die in my sleep rather than by violent means, but I don't fear death itself.

Shannon said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

This was good info, thanks JC. And I appreciate you putting it kindly.
That is kind of Christian of you to say the least. (no offense)
Or just good of you to say the most.

What have you to say of Voodoo?
My finance is from Hati, and he has witnessed many forms of diobolical forces....such as seeing men turn into animals and the walking dead.
Have you been to countries like this that practice Voodoo?
Isn't this demonic forces / dark forces prevailing on earth?

The photos I have found here are more then just poking fun of Jesus Christ though...I think... it is more like gross to me.

Re: death
One day I passed out, but did not loose total conciousness. It was the most strangest thing I ever felt. My body was not able to move, my eyes were shut and I could not open them either...I became extremely panicked...I relised that I had no control over my life..I surrendered..then I relised a tremendous peace came over me...I couldn't help but think of God..I equate this to the body is seperate from the soul.
What you to say about this type of expereince? Ever hear of it?

The Bible.
I have noticed that man has made the same mistakes over and over again in the history of the Bible applied to today and throughout history since we have had the Bible.
This includes trying to have a society that excludes God or doesn't beleive in the exsistence in a divine God.the consequences always end up with us being destroyed or chastised.
Do you find this just a coincidence?
Many have taken the Bible as a guideline to life and it has seemd to be helpful in how to live a better life. Like the book of Proverbs for instance.

Where does a ex Christian learn from to live a positive life and what does that life consist of?
And what is that life like?

Thanks for all your input again.

Dennis said...

I have really enjoyed these posts.
I can answer the last question. I dont believe in any god, im 53 years old, and as I was growing up, my parents, experiences, and my ongoing vision of life have taught me what is right, wrong, good, bad, and so on. I firmly believe, that you don't have to believe in god to be a good person. Just as some are mechanically inclined, some are inclined to be good to themselves and others, without having to constantly refer to a manual. One's comon sense should be sufficient by the time they reach adulthood.

Anonymous said...

But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse?
Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets? And then it would be to late?
What harm does it bring to you to believe?

Shannon said...

Which god? There are almost 5,000 historical gods and just in the United States, alone, there are around 600 different Christian denominations. If we are going to do this ‘just in case’ and put all our soul into one basket – which god should we choose? Do we pander to the god who has the worst hell or would it be better to pucker up to the god who has the best heaven? Or maybe we should pick the god that has a work release program – where we can work off lesser sins in purgatory yet eventually work our way into heaven. That way we could have some fudging room in this life for personal sin – whore, drink, smoke. You know, those kinds of things.

Never mind.

boomSLANG said...

Anony asked: "But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse?"

......::yawn::......

Okay, firstly, there is zero evidence for the existance of ANY deity, let alone the X-ian biblegod. If you have said evidence, let's hear it.(hopefully you won't be an amateur and put forth the bible as "evidence".) Secondly, yes, going through life believing a lie can make your life "worse". If on your "death bed" your signifigant other tells you that they never really loved you, and in fact, loved someone else, it would be bad---especially when you saw the "signs"(evidence) early on, but chose to ignore it ; ) So again, going through life believing a lie can make life "worse".

Anony then asked: "Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets?"

Yes, yes, we know---believe "just in case", right? Okay, so then shouldn't YOU believe in EVERY God?....just in case you have "faith" in the wrong one?

You're welcomed to try and make it make logical sense if you'd like. Let's hear it.

Anonymous said...

WEll all I can say is I hope you will get the sign that you need to prove to you the only God of The Bible exsists.
That is what I wish for you to have. And I believe in prayer because of my personal experiences and miracles, In my own way, I will continue to pray for you get one too.

Have a great winter season.

boomSLANG said...

Anony---A schizophrenic might "believe" the CIA implanted a chip in their head, as to keep tabs on their whereabouts at all times. This is their "personal experience". Like the schizo, you are entitled to your personal belief, yet, it says nothing about reality. Prayer is usless. You are wasting your time, hence your life, performing such rituals.

Have a great winter, spring, summer, autumn delusion.

Bentley said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bentley said...

Proof there is no God, Part II

If God was around before you where born, how come you never talked to God until after you were born?

Do you think your father or mother had Jesus and your eternal salvation on their minds at the exact moment of insemination (your fathers orgasm) into your mother?

The only place a God or Jesus exists is in your mind, you're just repeating things you've heard other monkeys repeat, and by repetition and indoctrination.

Now, I can prove to you that God and Jesus only exists in the conscious living brain, this also all manmade envisioned entities.

1. God and Jesus disappear when you are asleep, (where do they go?)

2. God and Jesus disappear when you are unconscious, (where do they go?)

3. God and Jesus disappear when you're under anesthesia during surgery, (where do they go?)

4. All Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is unconscious.

5. Therefore, all Gods and saviors and manmade entities disappear, when the mind is dead.

6. All the things that you've been told to believe, will disappear when you are dead.

You might as well learn it now, so get over with talking to yourself, and calling it from a God, its just your mind repeating just what it wants yourself to hear.

Shannon said...

Anony 9/22/2006 2:59 PM

I don’t generally express myself with out and out potty language but sometimes… You are speaking of an all-powerful being and all we can expect is a fucking sign? I don’t want a fucking sign, man; I want a tangible-fleshy-in-person greeting. At any time your god feels frisky enough, I’ve got a functioning doorbell.

Although I don’t think I’d like him to come visit anyway; he’s not a ‘person’ I’d really like know. Plain and simple, your god is asshole. Re: If there is someone who can step in (at no risk of his/hers own person) and help someone else who is being raped, murdered, or injured but doesn’t he/she is an asshole.

All your god does is watch.

He watches children starve.

He watches children die of cancer.

He watches children being molested.

He watches children being murdered.

He watches the innocent being used, abused and neglected.

He just watches.

It’s like he’s not there.

It’s like he doesn’t existed at all.

The concept of a loving, benevolent god is not just intellectually bankrupt but it is a full-body insult.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Shannon!!

Anonymous said...

God doesn't need to show himself to anybody, our world and universe has left fingerprints.

It's automatic, if you don't believe in God, then you must believe we all evolved from something ( how you people argue how something came from nothing, i'll never understand ). But open your eyes, look around.. It's like people are trying to proof a tornado flew through a junkyard, and formed an airport, planes and stores inside. That's how foolish you people are.

Just research the human eye, or heart. They did not come from random process.

I just pray you will not stop searching for God, even if you don't believe.. God wants you to believe in Him, but first you must search.

Anonymous said...

Evolution: Random processes create life. The universe has existed for 30 billion years, during which time all life evolved by random processes.

Creation: Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years. The simplest protein that can be termed "living" has 400 components.
________________________________

Evolution: Sexual reproduction came about by evolution

Creation: Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems. If one system wasn't complete or compatible, the species would become extinct.
_________________________________

Evolution: Species evolve from other species

Creation: There are no fossils of transitional life forms. Organisms have never been found to cross the boundaries between species

_________________________________
evolution is science fiction, it's man's view on how life started, yet overwhelming evidence points to a creator.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous, you copied and pasted that tripe from here: http://www.nwcreation.net/articles/howlifebegin.html.

Other than that Christianeze blather, do you have anything do support your position?

Besides, you've still failed to address the mystery of life, you've only retreated into "we can never understand."

If there is a multi-faceted, incomprehensibly complex "GOD" who made everything, then you're admitting that something extraordinarily complex can simply exist for no presently explainable reason.

I wonder why it is easier to believe there is some unexplainable invisible deity than to simply admit that it is hard to understand nature?

Religious belief is odd.

boomSLANG said...

Evolution: Both theory AND fact.

___________________________

Creationism("magic"): NEITHER.

Next time?... at least vomit scientific fact, instead of apologetic rhetoric . Thanks.

Jim Arvo said...

According to Anonymous, Creationists believe that...

1) Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion ... billion years...

2) Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems...

3) There are no fossils of transitional life forms...

If that's the case, then they're a sorry lot. What this illustrates with stunning clarity is how deathly afraid of asking questions they are. If I were in your shoes, Anonymous, I'd want to know where that number of "3 billion billion..." came from. I'd want to know whether scientists really posit that sexual reproduction came about by male and female evolving independently. I want to know whether scientists have identified any transitional forms. Have you seriously asked any of those questions, Anonymous? Truly, I'd like to know. If so, who did you ask? Where did you look for answers?

It seems to me that creationism consists of nothing more than clinging to dogmatic assertions while refusing to learn anything at all about the most fantastically successful enterprise ever undertaken by man: science.

I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer to my questions. If you do come back, I'll be happy to disabuse you of your pervasive misconceptions.

Have a really great weekend.

Patrick said...

So if God exists... then that means Greek Gods, gods of many african, indian, south american tribes, etc., etc. must not exist? So anon, you basically disprove the existance of any of this. So what makes yours right if any? (not promoting devil worship) Wouldn't it make more sense to believe in a satan or devil? There are more sins then good deeds in the world. If you say all of foreign and ancient religions are true along with an almighty god, that wouldn't be very logical (Even though God is illogical enough).

So people of different cultures create their "Gods" and they fight over whos "God" is real. This happens everyday. People die over religion every day. For something they don't even know exists. You can't keep saying that "it's safer to believe than it's not to believe" for an excuse and not giving a good reason or explanation for your God.

Olivia said...

proof??????????

all that is is a bunch of crappy theories from OTHER PEOPLE!!!

as humans we are imperfect, so why are we trusting ourselves to know the meaning of life?

and that argument that everyone keeps saying "Well you can't see the easter bunny either"

DUH!!! the easter bunny is a bunny what means he's made up of MATTER.

if you actually READ the bible [not take random verses out of it that you think proves your little theory] you'll realize that God is a spirit. we can't see spirits; we can see demons and angels though. we are spirits, have souls, and live in a body, whereas God is just a spirit, plain and simple.

the simple truth is this: you either believe or you don't.

if you believe you have hope and know you are going to heaven to live with God forever.

if you don't believe, your life must suck. never knowing what's gonna happen when you die. gosh that would suck. and having all these pleasures in life, but never true bliss. no real hope.

and i see most of you 'nonbelievers' are arguing against the Christian God. how bout you argue against all a million of them. lol.

Bottom line: all of your 'evidence' is so unconvincing. all it is is theories and stereotyping and you keep pulling random verses out of the bible and talk about the tooth fairy, like THAT explains it all.

I WILL BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU FIND ACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!

it's been like over 2000 years and people still haven't come up w/ FACTUAL evidence. haaaa it's true. it would be all over the news if there was proof, BUT THERE'S NOT!!!

boomSLANG said...

DUH!!! the easter bunny is a bunny what means he's made up of MATTER.

'Nuff said. ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Jim Arvo said...

Olivia, please provide some proof that Zeus does not exist. Once you see how ridiculous that request is, you might start to appreciate how ridiculous you sound to us.

Bye now.

Randalynn said...

I am new here and have just tonight read through the posts in this section. I would like to respond to several differnet posts by Anon.

First I want to ask you if you believe that it is impossible to lead a moral life without guidance from the Bible?

Do you believe that Athiests are more disposed to wrong doings?

I for one am an Athiest and was raised to be very moral without having to look to a bible. Instead I look to my heart and my mind.

Also you mentioned an experience where you had passed out but were conscious and unable to move your body. You asked if anyone else had experienced this.
I have and many times to. It probably happens to me about once a year.
Its called Sleep paralysis and it happens to me when I have been dreaming and wake up. I try to move but cannot. I can't lift my arm or move my head. It actually freaks me out a little. But a minute later it passes and I can move again.
Here is a definition from Wikipedia:

Sleep paralysis is a condition characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up or, less often, shortly before falling asleep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis


Next you had brought up many times that you think it would be better to just believe in God than not b/c you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
My question is not whether it is better but IS IT REALLY A CHOICE?

I don't ever really recall choosing not to believe in God. I just realized one day that I didn't. (I think I was around thirteen.) To me it didn't make sense not like it did to my friends and family.
And when I asked questions to try and make sense of it I only got non explanatory answers.

I can't just close my eyes and say that when I open them I am going to choose to believe in God.

Do you believe that you can choose NOT to believe in God right now and then in the next second you won't?

You believe in God because when you think about God he makes sense and feels true to you on a personal level this is the same reason that I don't belive in God.

This is merely what this entire posting is about. Athiests don't feel that God makes sense. It feels fake and untrue to us.
Its not about hating Christians or wanting to spread "diabolical forces".

If God made me than he made me a person who cannot believe in him.

Randalynn

Randalynn said...

The Reason Faith Feels Untrue to Athiests

No one believes in God that there is a God.

Now let me explain this statement.
If God came to me personally than I could say that I believe he is real, because he is real.

I could say this because I have experienced him in a way that was real to me.

However there are only a few people in history who claim that they have interacted with him and therefore can believe in him out of firsthand experience.

They believe in God b/c he told/showed them that he was there.

Everyone else has to have "FAITH".

And this is where the above statement comes into play.

No one has faith in God that there is a God.

They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real.

You can believe in the Bible that there is a God.
Or a preacher, or your parents that there is a God.

But all of these sources are not divine they are falliable.

So Athiests have mereley asked the question:
"Why would I put blind faith in a falliable source?"

This is why so many of us state that if there is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, then he should present himself in a way that would actually result in us believing in him.

This to Christians is an arrogant thing to say. Why should God have to prove himself, that would eliminate the need for faith.

I say no it wouldn't, it would just get that one huge roadblock out of the way.
If I knew he was real I would still have to have faith in his "Grand Plan" and that all the suffering in the world has a reason. That he either created evil or allowed it and that for some reason it was needed.

(And for all the Free Will people out there on evil and the devil:

I have a son, I want him to be independent and have Free Will but that does not mean that I would allow him to go about the world doing evil things. If he was torturing, killing and commiting other people to suffer than I would feel morally obligated to stop him.

And if I was omnipotent and could see beforehand that he would cause great suffering than I would choose not to have him.

Sorry got sidetracked. LOL.

I hope this helps to show Christians what Athiests mean when they say that Faith and God doesn't work for them.

And why we feel the need for proof.

Randalynn

Bentley said...

Randalynn I enjoyed your post very much.

This is a key point,
"They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real."

Chrustians think, surely this person or the Bible would not mislead them in any way? Their faith and trust lies in other humans, in hopes that they have some kmowledge unbenounced to them,

Yet they are/were misled, and yes by their trusted religious official(s).

Very insightful, keep it coming! Thanks!

Anonymous said...

To the atheists of the world I pose one question plus some additional ones, lol - with regards to the existence of God. Why debate it? If there is no God, why debate it, if there is a God why debate that too. From what I can see you choose to look within and use you’re a meticulous minds to clearly and concisely deliver your answers. In which I have no doubt your minds have evolved and ever so changed and be shaped by what you have learnt since you where born. Have you been exposed to all information out there in the world? Have you processed every last piece of it, from the dawn of man. Can you say this to your self “that I know everything and there is nothing else to be learnt”? How do you know you have seen everything or how do you know that you haven’t seen the proof right before your very own eyes day in and day out and choose simply to ignorant becomes it did not fit into your predetermined notions. Can you trust your judgement if you only believed in what you wanted to see and saw nothing? What kind of world would you like to see? Think about it…. Is seeing - believing, but can we truly trust what we see? Your mind is limited to the confine of the information that fills that space which you call a brain how can you know without a doubt that there is no God? Because someone else said so, has science prove it(not yet, and it never will), because your mind believes there is no God. Think about it for a second if you are basing everything you believe in, solely on the basis on the overwhelming flood of stuff you have heard, read, seen or be told about; pretty much all information that you have collected in your life time. What good is that, if you only flood your mind with stuff that leads you to believe in your own predetermined notions of reality, which where possibly set for you by someone else? Did I hit a nerve yet… keep reading. Great, how about the information that you are not aware of? Lets for the moment say there is proof that God does exist but you to this date have not been exposed to that information. Because you haven’t been exposed to it, does it make it any less real? I know what you are about to say “but there is no proof”. Well you think so, but I want you to think about this really HARD -if there was and you didn’t know about it, does it make it any less real? Another thing to think about as you are starting to be truthful with yourself – WHY SOMETHING and NOT NOTHING? So you can only be a true atheist if you have accumulated all the information and knowledge out there know to man and unknown to man and then come up with the logical conclusion that there is no God. It takes more faith to be an atheist then to believe in God. Since that is impossible for you to do, what are you basing your opinions on? Can they be trusted? In the future do you really what to find out about the existence of God as you stand before him after you die? Because then it’s a little too late. Regardless if you want to believe now or later everyone in this world will come to know and believe in God. But that real choice is where you want to spend the second half of your life with him forever or to be cut off from him. The choice is clearly yours to make. Try this exercise what would you say to a thought in your owned mind, in which this “thought”, tells you, whom thought the it up “that you don’t exist” Ridiculous, so why ask God whom created you to prove to you that he exists. What does that prove? If you truly wanted to see God, he’ll make him self know to you. All you have to do is earnestly ask in Jesus name. Please don’t continue missing the proof set before eyes. Truly seek him and the evidence will be presented to you. Make Jesus the Lord of your life and the truth which you seek will reign in your heart and truly effective you positively forever and ever.

Anonymous said...

maybe there is something to this god,i don't want to....but maybe "god" is conscience.....that might be worth worshipping.....i shall read more about your "god" more than i did the first time......i hope i believe

Astreja said...

To the Anonymous of 11/07/2006, 3:32 p.m.:

Why debate the existence of gods? Quite simply, to encourage individuals to question the many ridiculous and harmful mythologies that still plague humanity. A skeptical mind has survival value. A complacent, overly accepting mind is easily controlled and easily destroyed.

Why should I take the time to examine "all information out there in the world"? Most of the world does not, and will not, touch upon my life. I am not interested in learning "the absolute truth" about anything, because relative truth works just fine. I can build an excellent wall with a measuring tape accurate only to 1/16 of an inch. I can bake a cake with inexact amounts of baking powder, and tie my shoelaces differently every single time. Why should I waste my life with the myth of perfection when I can be out there gleefully doing lots of fun things "imperfectly" till the day that I just don't wake up in the morning?

And why should I ask anything in the name of a long-dead and possibly never-existing man?

Dave8 said...

Anonymous: "Have you been exposed to all information out there in the world?"

No, but what information out there would be worth listening to? Moreover, how would you choose to validate information presented to you by another person? If you can't answer the question, then you can't validate the information "you" personally, hold, and thus, your entire post becomes speculative to say the least.

Anonymous: "Have you processed every last piece of it, from the dawn of man."

Determine whether or not the elements that make up information are finite/infinite. Define information based on form. Let me know when you're done, and lets see if you can argue that mankind doesn't in "fact" process all form types of data elements that make up information.

Superficial questions, created to stir doubt in others, is the hallmark of ignorance. Anonymous, please, by all means, prove to me, that I haven't processed all informational data types/forms. Prove to me that all form elements have/don't have a common origin.

Your ignorance, doesn't substantiate a reason for me to doubt my knowledge. Prove to me, why my knowledge, has been erroneously developed/clustered based on faulty processing. Care to define the "right" neurological process?

By the way, while you are at it, humanity mentally models reality, it's how we "build" a conscience. And, we are not much different in that aspect than other animalia.

"First Evidence to Show Elephants, Like Humans, Apes And Dolphins, Recognize Themselves in the Mirror
By Yerkes National Primate Research Center, Emory University, and the Wildlife Conservation Society"
http://healthnewsdigest.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=12&num=4700

Do you know what a mirror is? Can you explain how an ape recognizes themselves in the mirror? What is a conscience? What does it mean to be conscious? Do animals have personalities? How do you know?

If you are capable of answering a number of these questions, please, by all means, come back. If you can't... the knowledge you hold doesn't even allow you to ask the more poignant questions corrctly.

I think it's "almost" humorous that you postulate a question on universal information, without holding universal information... lets see how you do with just plain old information you hold in your memory banks. What makes "your" information, more tenable/valid than anyone elses'?

Randalynn said...

Why debate the existence of God?
Well...its kinda fun. I have always liked to debate, I enjoy learning about different view points and accumulating knowledge.

Its the reason people debate anything. You gather as much information as you can, find the answer that you believe is true and then you stand by that answer and defend it.

This is what civilization is built on: the gathering of information so that it can be used to advance society. There will always be people who believe that their way is better than anothers and they will debate passionately for their way to be accepted.

Now as for anonymous' post I always find it cute when someone preaches in a post and then assumes in the end that they have "hit a nerve yet?" and as for "wanting us to think about it really hard," I think that has always been the difference between believers and non believers.

We HAVE thought about it and sorry, it didn't add up. If you want to make a list of Christian beliefs that make sense and ones that don't well ONE side would be really long...

Also as for it taking more faith to be an Athiest than to be a Christian. I don't really get it. Why does it take more faith to believe in a Big Bang than the Big Guy in the Sky?
And if you want to know how could the Big Bang start.
Well how could God start?

Right now neither science nor faith can answer these questions but at least science gives us the hope of one day knowing.

And besides it encourages people to find answers for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Well to you science fans out there. I love science as well, I stll belive in a God. You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God. Its impossible. Have fun, learning the truth, as the truth will set you free. Dont hide form it, welcome it. He's always there with you; all you have to do is to ask and he'll make himself known. It's that easy, or our you afraid if you did and found out then you would have to give something up to believe. My friend the only thing you'll be giving up is your shackles to the lie of sin. Its hard to explain, but it is real. Dont wait to find out, there is not much time left. I dont want to fight with you man out there in world. We are all the childern of God. God does not love me anymore then any of you. We cant buy his love, we can do things to make him loves us more. The love is real, God is real and his son whom he sent to save the world is real. For God Loves you more then you think. You dont have to believe there is a God, but God wants you to know this.... HE LOVES YOU.

Anonymous said...

Sorry A little typo there I want to make sure I said this right. The post abouve where I said

"We cant buy his love, we can do things to make him loves us more"

It should have read Can't do things to make him loves us more"

See i'm just a reguarly guy like yourself, making mistakes just living my life the best I can, just like you. But I know I sin and I sin on a daily basis. God cant live with sin that is why you can never be good enough by yourself. You need a Redeemer to be your advocate. I dont hate any of you for having your views, I dont know you. If I found a 10 pound piece of Gold wouldn't you want me to tell where I found it. So please dont get upset when you read the stuff I have to say. Its not put out there to offend but it is a gift that I accepted and believe in. You should have the chance to know and to recive for yourself for it is free and waiting for you.

Anonymous said...

With God all things are possible!!! Except saving souls, he turned that chore over to a demi-god!

Limey said...

Yeah you've come on the internet looking for souls to be saved.
Guess what? We've already found your gold and it turned out otbe worthless a lie a total fabrication and a bucket of shit!!!

Prove to us you're a Christian.

Mark 16:17 Drink poison and handle snakes, then come back and tell us what a great True Christian you really are!!!

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous Fundy posted at 11:02 and 11:10 AM 11-14-06 “You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.”

Okay, I won’t ask science to, I’ll ask YOU to. Without any reference to your bible, show us evidence of the Christian god. Any time in the next few minutes would be fine.

The shackles you refer to are the ones you keep on your brain to prevent rational thinking. Again, without referencing your bible, because that is the ONLY place it exists, what “sin” are you talking about?

No problem not believing in the Christian god. I don’t.

You aren’t a regular guy like us. First, there are several ladies who regularly post here as well, but most importantly, you’re a narrow-minded fundamentalist who thinks he has the BIG answer to bring all of us poor lost souls back to his Christian god…just believe. Just believe the whole Christian fairy tale is real, and it will become real.

Tell you what Tinkerbelle, to keep from saying something really obscene to you, I’ll just say…HAR-HAR-HARDY-HAR-HAR!!!

.:webmaster:. said...

I think one of the strangest by-products of belief in a god is the conviction on the part of believers that they actually speak for a god.

Would we expect gods to have generally bad syntax?

"I'm not arrogant, I'm humble! Oh, and God wants me to tell you..."

Alan said...

Anonymous wrote:

You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.

Anonymous, you absolutely can ask science to prove the existence of God. The studies that have been done, like the Harvard prayer study, have not produced any evidence whatsoever of God's existence. Most religious people think God is an active force that causes or influences events here on Earth, if that is true then we can examine these effects in a scientific way, just like any other phenomena. Unless of course you think science doesn't really describe reality, in which case you are free to read the Bible instead of seeking medical care next time you are sick, or you think everything around us is an illusion, in which case you are free to step in front of a bus and see what happens.

Jim Arvo said...

Have you ever noticed that the folks who implore us to "Think REALLY HARD" are nearly always the ones who exhibit very little capacity for thinking themselves?

Anonymous, your entire essay is testimony to the fact that you know almost nothing about which you speak. You make completely ridiculous assertions about what an atheist must believe, apparently because you've never bothered to ask an atheist what they believe. So, let's get a few things straight, shall we?

I am an atheist. Does that mean I have examined every corner of the universe looking for god? No. What I have done is to examine the claims that humans have made regarding this hypothetical being, and I've done so earnestly and methodically for decades. In absolutely EVERY case that I have examined, the reasoning is fallacious and the data is unreliable; in fact, in the VAST MAJORITY of the cases, the fallacies are both numerous and blatant, and the data is virtually nonexistent. Therefore, I reject the extraordinary claims that religionists make.

But wait, there's more. YOU TOO do this very same thing (albeit less methodically, I'll wager). You have rejected Zeus, presumably because there is nothing to support the idea of his existence. You probably harbor no belief in Mithra, Osiris, Isis, or Attis, despite the legions of people who have earnestly worshiped them and built temples to them, and I'll bet you haven't even tried to examine the evidence for their existence. Don't forget, simply being IGNORANT of the evidence doesn't make it go away, right? There might be "proof" of one or more of these deities, you just haven't found it yet. I guess that means you had better believe in them all, just in case, right? Or will you continue to be an atheist, like us, with respect to those deities?

Now, if the foolishness of your position is not yet starkly evident, come on back and we can walk you through it step by step. Be prepared to defend your LACK of belief in Zeus, Mithra, Osiris, etc., because you need to answer to every single argument that YOU have raised thus far in defense of your chosen deity.

Good day.

Anonymous said...

Hello Man and women. I see that you are getting very upset. Why. If you are so secure in the knowledge that I’m so wrong why would you get so upset and get so angry. I tell what is really happening within you. If you truly want to know why you are getting very angry and enraged to what I say it is because the Holy Spirit of God is convicting you to the truth. There is my proof. You can say all you want that I'm wrong about what I just said about you on this post. But when you lye there by yourself thinking to yourself you really know what has been happening to you. I don’t need to drink poison or handle snakes to prove I'm Christian. I can prove it by simply saying this. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, He died and arouse again on the third day. Without him, I’m nothing. Like I said before I don’t want to offend and I don’t want to cause you to be angry but examine where that anger is coming from and truly seek him. He'll make himself known. If you want. GOD wants you to know, no matter what you think or say HE LOVES YOU. Feel his spirit, its TRUE, dont push away, accept it. Can you feel it at the core. You can, you can feel it, that why you are geeting so upset. Cause as you write I pray for you. Casue I love you as childern of the most high. Please see that feeling for what it really is. Open your heart eyes to the truth. Till the next post God bless you

Jim Arvo said...

Anonymous, I can sense the anger and frustration that you must be feeling. It's very telling, as it's a sign that you are struggling mightily to defend a weak position. It's troubling to be surrounded by people who were brave enough to look at the emperor and observe that he is without a stitch of clothing. You no doubt sense that we are right, and you would be posting your own testimony of deconversion here were it not for the emotional baggage that binds you to your beliefs. That's okay. It takes time. But first try to come to grips with the anger and the bitterness that are clouding your judgment. Once you can face the facts squarely, it becomes much easier. Best of luck on your deconversion.

(This psychoanalysis session has been provided free of charge.)

Anonymous said...

Hi, I can’t say it in words. But I'm truly not upset or moved in anyway to what you have to say to me. For me to say I don't have my moments of doubts would be a lie. But I'll tell you this at these moments of doubts that I have they are brought on not by any disbelief that there is no God, but in my own weakness as a human being. I’m a person that is not humbled, I get angry, and some times I’m mean person when I shouldn’t be. But I’m a person, a person that needs my God to save me. I know what you are all thinking; what a whimp what a weakling, he needs to believe in something that isn’t there for him to get himself through his day. To which I say YES you are right, but it’s not in something that is not there, it’s to a God who loves me and is more real to me then you and people around me. I’m a sinner, I’m a weak person, and I’ll never be good enough to dwell with my God. But I’m not worry about this at all and that’s why he is so amazing. In my weakness he still cared enough to send someone to rescue me and care for me. I tell you the truth, my life has became a lot harder since I became a Christian. I have lost a lot for this Truth, but nothing and I say nothing that I have lost is worth one second to the reality of being cut off from God for entirety because I said No Thanks to a free gift. I’ll never deny the fact and it is a Fact that Jesus came to save all. Guys, I already know I’m not greatest of all speakers or my Grammar is not that great and I know I can’t spell. But it doesn’t change the fact to what you are all feeling.

.:webmaster:. said...

Question: Why. If you are so secure in the knowledge that I’m so wrong why would you get so upset and get so angry.

Answer: Click here.

Statement: Without him, I'm nothing.

Conclusion: Then you are nothing, because He doesn't exist.

Manic raving: no matter what you think or say HE LOVES YOU.

Sarcastic response: And if I don't love HIM back, HE's going to fry my ass in the most sadistic torture chamber imaginable. HE'll never let me die or escape. I will be cruelly and mercilessly tormented forever!

Reminds me of my first wife.

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous,

Here, here is your blankey, and here, put the thumb back into your mouth. There!

*suck*suck*suck*

That's all better now isn't it? Just think of it as your "Jesus" thumb. Cram it in your mouth and everything will be alright.

*suck*suck*suck****

Anonymous said...

Web master - What is this link you want to send me on. Below is the link that you posted "Answer Clik here"

"http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/07/not-ready-to-be-nice.html"

You dont want to be nice and fry my computer cause I say things you can't handle. Come on play nicely now. We are just talking. I think you are a very smart man. You are a better speaker then I. I just want to tlak and have the same right you all love as much as I do.

Jim Arvo said...

Okay, Anonymous. We'll look for your deconversion story here in a few months. Let us know if we can be of any help.

Bye now.

Anonymous said...

Well I see the web master found it fit to remove 2 of my post. Well if you want to take away my right to speak frelly so be it. I guess I'll post else where. Have a good day, May God coutinue to bless you and I hope for the best for everyone that has written in these posts

boomSLANG said...

Fundonymous: I’m a sinner, I’m a weak person, and I’ll never be good enough to dwell with my God.

"Weak" and "a sinner"....and yet, you were "made in the image of God". Hmmmmm... 'sounds like a love-connection to me. Best wishes to the both of you.

Limey said...

With God, all things are possible!!

Except God cannot save souls, he needs a demi-god to do that for him!

Anonymous said...

the problem the other of this piece has and all of the people writing here is that they are mainly using a distorted christian view of god i am personally agnostic at this point and never was or will be christian the author does not understand the nature of a thheoretical god
god would be a being without any physical attributes all descriptions of god are not real just metaphors for certain actions god "did" how can you ask how can god allow evil your defining evil in your own terms in order to disproove god maybe what you percieve as bad is part of pefection of the universe the going with the simpler answer is used but is not a proof god not being able to create a rock he cannot pick up is also ridiculis since god is not physical and therefore there are no imposibilities you can phathom that god cant do ancient religions that saw god as a woman since she creates life is not better than making god a man they are both ridiculis for a non physical being I suggest reading guide to the perplexed by maimonides you do not no god by what he does since you cannot no him but rather by negative knowledege you can say what he is not for instanse god is not big

Anonymous said...

a problem the author has with his proofs are that he took what people said as neccesity for a proof in god and assumes without good analysis that these questions actually show paradoxes

eistein was saying since god created the universe in aperfect and complex manner understanding the universe helped him see the greatness of god and brought him to an apreciation of a creator

Anonymous said...

you people make dumb assumptions that earth being habitable is such a small possibility what you dont realize is that according to the theory of evolution if earth were 2000 degrees and full of methan its very possible an orgism with the ability to survive would crop up earth is the only inhabitable planet for people because they evolved into being able to live in the conditions of earth not some coincidince that earth needed to be this exact temp with this amount of oxygen this is what we evolved into being able to live in

Anonymous said...

Hi & good day from a Muslim,

Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel 17.85)

Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!

Anonymous said...

Hi & good day from a Muslim,

Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)

Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!

Wes said...

>>
Hi & good day from a Muslim,

Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)

Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
>>

You've got to be joking. So, you really think we're going to dump one bogus religion and then join another?? Har har! Barking up the wrong tree, my friend! -Wes.

john the disbeliever said...

I am so irraitated with all the changes to the churhes and the wars of religion in which there is no proof, only faith. What is going on? Who cares if there is a god anymore, i just dont want to be killed by somebody thinking its God's will. That is a more "to the minute problem"... Everyone should believe what makes them happy. Whatever, i just can't take all the B.S. about religion and god, people trying to recruit my kids to relgion by offering free bike give aways, come on. I think that the world need to step back and look at the distruction in the name of religion and figure out, "hey. WTF?" I offer no answers or theories but i do know i dont beileve in this crap, and i beilieve when i do die, i will rot and that will be it, there will be no answers revealed to me, so why waste my time. Other than the fact that everyone is into religion and it puts damoers on my life and how i thinki should live it. what I think is wrong or right. Not what Moses says. give me a break, thanks for reading

Anonymous said...

ok people if you say there is a god then who created him? He didn't just appear out of nowhere. Religion is some thing for people to believe in so that they don't feel alone in the universe,and so they can have rules about how life should be. oh ya and the world isn't going to end you idots until our sun dies, or we kill each other by our own doing. just think if there wasn't religion there would be no war.

Royal Snow said...

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" Law of conservation of mass. Did you see that its a LAW. That means its a fact. Thats all the proof you need. I'm 15 and I just disproved that there is a god. Easy as 1 2 3... Its a hard fact to face and It takes some time but face it. There are no Gods. There is only us. Live for today not the "afterlife"

sertyopklopklop@aim.com

Anonymous said...

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

for those of you who want to wait till He returns to believe, go ahead. i'm a firm believer in God and in the redemptive work Christ did on the cross. we the church have not lived as we ought before God and so we have brought insult to His name. some of you left the Faith because of that, some of you saw the hypocrisy and so on and left. did any of you try to live in a manner more pleasing to God/in the way you thought Christians ought to live or did you simply leave the Faith?

it is one thing to note hypocrisy but to then do nothing about it makes you no better, in fact, you are just as guilty.

Warnepiece said...

Oh, of course!!! No one ever thought of THAT before, Anonymous….

Just quote a bible verse and we’ll all realize the error of our ways!

And the icing on the christian cake is, point out how we’re not living our lives like christians!

…All those past foolish christians who came here prior to this latest anonymous. Tsk, tsk!

How could all the other fundamentalists and bible-thumping busybodies have missed it?

Anonymous said...

Arguments in response to your thesis from a servant of Christ:

--->The theodicé problem

Indeed, God cannot be almighty if He is limited by any characteristic or trait. God is indeed greater than all things. Christ said, "All things are possible with God." This means God has no limitations. He is not even limited by good or evil.

However, God is good. So how can we say both? Quite obviously, because God chose to be good. He chose to limit Himself. The way God did this is by giving birth to a Son. In God's son is the embodiment of all that God is. In Hebrews 1:3, it says that the son is "the exact representation of His nature." Though all things are possible for God, He chose His Son to be the representation of His nature.

The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else. It was the very first event. The bible says "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth."

--->The ontological evidence against gods

There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer, and why this reasoning fails. 1) A person prays to the wrong God. 2) The person is not in a right relationship with God. They have sinned against God. If a person has wronged God, why should He answer?

If a person approaches the throne of God and has not been reconciled of sin, God would have no choice but to execute justice. When God does not answer a prayer, it is out of mercy.

--->The meaning of the word existence

God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM." However, everything else changes. Everything else is variable. Because God never changes and is always the same, everything else can have a basis for existence. Otherwise, based upon the definition of existence, nothing really exists. There is nothing of which we can relate that does not change.

God has given of Himself to provide existence to all things. We exist because God exists. If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?

--->Occam's razor

God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason. Many people in the field of science say that God is not a viable explanation. However, what many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.

The entire basis of science is math, logic, and experimentation. A scientist studies the universe looking for explanations of how it works. What a scientist discovers is natural principles at work governing the universe. This natural order is measured in the language of mathematics. The entire universe follows this language.

Within the universe is a certain rational. The scientist goes about studying on this basis: that everything has a logical explanation. We can say everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).

If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random. A person may ask, "why does an apple fall off a tree?" In a random universe, the answer would be: "because it is random." However, science does not accept such a proposition. Science says, "There must be a reason. The reason is gravity."

And so, science needs God as the basis for all reason in the universe, or else science is obsolete. Without God, all things merely occur randomly. And so, if there is no God, there is no rational explanation for anything.

--->Some things are impossible to do:

God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things. His Word bears wisdom. It has a particular logic that governs all things. We can easily see through science that all things follow a particular logic. This has been established by God's Word.

Indeed, there are things impossible to do. This is because God has established His Word as the supreme authority over all things. God's Word is absolute and does not change.

However, God is greater than His Word. He will always be greater than His Word. He is in control of His Word. This means that if God wants to walk on water, He can do so freely without upsetting anything. He is the one in control. There is no contradiction here.

--->Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes

Free will is not free choice. God has given free will to men. However, God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?

Many people confuse free will with free action. We do not have free choice. We have free will. We have the freedom to believe whatever we want. We can believe in Santa Claus. We can believe in anything. We can even believe there is no God, when there is really is a God. The fact that you can sit and say "there is no God" is because God gave you that freedom.

In addition, our beliefs are based upon things we have learned. For instance, we believe in Santa Clause because it originated from a person that actually lived. However, the concept of God is not based upon anything we could have imagined. God is beyond anything we know. Thus, the only way we could ever conceive of God is if we actually had interacted with Him at one point in the past. If God had never existed, we would never know. We would not be arguing over God because we could not have imagined Him.

--->We would never notice god

Again, the problem here is that the author does not know about God's Son. God is above and beyond all things. He is greater space and time. Being this is true, how then can we know God? He is beyond us. If God does interact with the world, like he says, then God would change all things, not one thing.

God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God. Through this Son, we may know God and interact with God.

As far as prayer is concerned, the author doesn't know the purpose of prayer. We do not pray to God in order to influence God. God does not change and if He changed according to our desire, the world would be evil just as we are evil. Rather, prayer is about being united with God as one. When we pray, we are to pray "in the name" of Christ. When we pray, we are sharing in the person of God. We are sharing in all that God is. We are asking God for things He has already planned on giving us. The purpose of prayer is not to get. This is a selfish point of view. It is to give. True prayer is the acknowledgment of God. It is saying, "I love you God."

The author says, "Do it yourself." However, this is an ignorant statement. The author is telling people to act in ignorance. God knows all things. We only know what we see through our narrow vision. We cannot possibly know all the ramifications of our actions. However, if we pray to God and allow God to work in us, then God can control us. This means our actions will be based upon God who is supremely good and knows all things. However, if we act independently of God, then we will most likely cause harm. Hence, why the earth is suffering from things like global warming. The earth is dying because humans have acted independently relying on themselves rather than God.

--->Nobody really believes in god

Faith that is blind is no faith at all. When we are a child, we might believe in Santa Claus waiting all night for him to come. When he doesn't show, we realize our faith was false. As such, we never had faith to begin with.

My faith is not dependent on me. In many religions, people believe in God because they believe. Their faith is dependent on them. Just like the child who believed in Santa Claus. All faith needs to have evidence. Even the writer of Hebrews said in verse 11:1, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." True faith is not blind. True faith has evidence.

The Christian faith is based upon a God who saves His people from their sins. The work of Christ in the lives of sinners is the evidence for faith. When we call out to Jesus to save us from our sins, and He does save us, then our faith is proven.

My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me. I no longer do any of those things because Jesus saved me. I now have an abundant life.

God is an active part of my life. He is with me. If you could live with me for a time, you would see this is true. You would see Jesus working in my life.

--->Epilogue

There is reasonable cause to believe in God. For anyone to say there is no God is only foolishness. A person says there is no God because they want to be in control of themselves. They want to be their own God. They don't want to believe in God because if they did believe in God, they would have to give an account to God for all the wrong they have committed.

If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior. We are hopeless. We need a God who can redeem us and make us new.

Only the fool says, "We don't need any help. We can do it ourselves." All I can say in response to this is: keep trying. Let me know how it goes.

However, for anyone who is spiritually sick and needs a doctor, Jesus Christ is alive.

by Blake Kidney

Astreja said...

To Blake:

The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else.

Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)

There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer...

You forgot #3: The god doessn't actually exist and is therefore not capable of answering prayers.

God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM."

Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)

If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?

Hey, I'm right here. Obviously I do have a basis for my existence. It isn't necessarily the god that you worship, though.

God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason... What many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.

This "necessary being" business always struck me as a bit silly. Even if you can prove a necessary "first cause", you're nowhere near proving that the "necessary" is a sentient being, let alone the god of the Bible. Prove the necessity before you go any further here.

...Everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).

Are you positive that absolutely everything *must* have a logical explanation? If so, please use logic to explain where your alleged god came from.

If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random.

The universe is not "random." It is based on physical laws which are, in turn, based on the properties of physical elements such as electrons, photons and other minuscule particles. Things that are alike enough to be classified as such will share various properties and exhibit phenomenae that we later classify as forms of energy. For example, if enough electron-type particles move thisaway or thataway, an electric charge manifests. No deities are required.

You're also running afoul of the anthropic principle here: Life appears non-random to us *only* because we happen to reside in a life-supporting region of a massive and disorganized universe. I don't know if "life" exists in more chaotic areas. Perhaps it does; and perhaps we would not even recognize it as life because of perceptual biases.

God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things.

Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)

God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God.

Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)

My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me.

Many people have done these things without the help of your god. I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.

If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior.

Like the one who's supposedly coming back to destroy the world? No, thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Of all the things Blake copied and pasted here, I like this one regarding unanswered prayer the best: 2) The person is not in a right relationship with God. They have sinned against God. If a person has wronged God, why should He answer?

Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.

That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children.

Blake, you are an ass.

Anonymous said...

Dear Astreja,

Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists. As such, there is no point in arguing with you.

However, I would like to point out one thing. You said, "The universe is not 'random.'"

I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.

So, do you believe God exists or not? How can you say the universe is not random, and then say there is no God?

Lastly...

I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.

Proof please?

Thanks,
Blake

Anonymous said...

Quote: "They don't want to believe in God because if they did believe in God, they would have to give an account to God for all the wrong they have committed."

Quote: "Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.

That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children."


Thank you for proving my point. The problem is not an intellectual one, it is a moral one. Who is greater, you or God?

If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?

God created the human body. He certainly can raise it and repair it. He has that control. However, God has given up His right to control a person's heart. He cannot force you to believe anything.

In the grand scale of things, God allows evil and suffering to exist in order to help people see the need for God. He has done this in order to help them believe.

In the garden of Eden, life was all happiness and flowers. That didn't satisfy Adam and Eve. They still wanted more.

A good father never spoils a child. If a father gave his daughter everything she wanted, she would become extremely selfish. However, if a father allowed her to suffer some, she would learn and grow. A good father disciplines his children.

In my life I have suffered many things and God has allowed it. I do not enjoy suffering, but I would never trade in my sufferings. In each, I learned valuable things that helped shape me and mold me.

God values suffering. In a world without God, life is meaningless. Suffering is meaningless. However, God is Holy and full of meaning. He values all suffering. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross in immense agony. He did this willingly. It was His choice. Why would He do such a thing?

God is good. We cannot understand all His ways, but He is good. The problem is with us. A person who truly trusted in God would have faith in Him. They would believe that even though they suffer it is for a greater good they cannot understand. However, a person with no faith would approach God in anger, "Why would you let my child die?!!"

One day, those questions will be answered. Each person will be rewarded their fair portion. The question you must ask yourself is where will you be when that happens?

Of course, it is easier to believe God doesn't exist. Then you don't have to be accountable.

Blake

Warnepiece said...

Reading Blake’s posts confirms everything that is wrong with Christianity. Fundamentalists like Blake have a One-Size-Fits-All answer to everything, no thinking required.

Blake wrote “If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?”

See, no explanation is needed - God allows it and it serves his purpose, so who are we to judge? By using Blake’s logic, I don’t see why we even need hospitals; everything that happens is just God’s will, so nothing we mortals do will make any difference. May as well just send these kids home to die with the comforting knowledge that they are serving God’s purpose by suffering so terribly. I don’t know what lesson Blake thinks anyone will learn but Blake alludes to a One-Size-Fits-All-Answer – “It’s the mystery of God”.

In one of Blake’s earlier posts he made this claim: “God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?

I don’t know about where you like Blake but I can go over to my neighborhood airport, climb into a Cessna 172R and take off. I have the skills and the freedom to do it, so yes, I can fly.

But maybe you are actually suggesting that if we weren’t born with the physical capability, then god didn’t mean for us to do it. (I guess having the intelligence to accomplish it by other means doesn’t count.) Since our bodies were not born with the capacity to travel in space, we should abandon the space program. After all, God didn’t give us the ability to exist outside of the thin shell that protects us on this planet. Nor do we have the physical capabilities to dive very deep in the ocean. Using Blake’s clear, God-inspired logic, those submariners are acting against the will of god.

This is probably just a waste of time pointing these things out to Blake, because there is another One-Size-Fits-All excuse Blake will most likely fall back on for why I fail to understand, “Satan has blinded me”.

.:webmaster:. said...

Blake wrote: "If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?"

And that's what religious absolute thinking brings. A child's death is good! Everything is good!

Who needs medicine? If the Lard wants the child dead, well then who are we to argue.

Pathetic. Thank reason that the Blakes of the world are somewhat marginalized in the public domain. We don't need another ignorant Dark Ages under the absolute tyrant of Christianity.

Blake wrote: "In a world without God, life is meaningless."

How is a world where the only purpose is to be a god's play toy more meaningful than a world without a god? My life has meaning because a deity wants my worship? Your life is worthless unless you have a god to worship?

Who makes this nonsense up? Why would any swallow this lunacy?

I don't care if there is a god or a dog, my life is quite meaningful to me. I'm sorry you have to find an invisible friend to make your life worth living.

Wow.

Blake, you rambled on and on about the value of suffering, and then you throw out that people don't believe in your God so they don't have to be accountable?

WTF? I am accountable to my boss at work, my wife, my kids, my parents, the government, my neighbors, my creditors... I am so damned accountable that I need an accountant to keep track of it all.

I don't believe in your mythological, torture-loving, invisible despot in the sky, because the whole idea of an all-good, omni-powerful being that thinks inflicting pain and suffering is GOOD is hideously perverse.

There is no God. I challenge you to contact this ridiculous God of yours and have him strike me dead tonight! Is that too hard for HIM? Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!

It won't happen, Blake, because your god doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination.

Astreja said...

Dear Astreja,
Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists.


Probably not. In my nearly fifty years on this planet, I have seen no credible evidence for the Biblical god.

I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.

No, not necessarily. Structure does not require intelligence or sentience. It merely requires a consistent aggregation of smaller structures. Put ten pennies on a table and arrange them into a triangle, and you will see what I mean. Or, alternatively, mix a lot of salt or sugar in a jar of water and dangle a piece of string in the liquid. Crystals will form all by themselves. They do this because the molecules just happen to fit together in nice patterns.

So, do you believe God exists or not?

No, I do not believe in a creator-god of any sort. I believe that god-like beings are possible, but with relatively limited and localized powers. And I have yet to prove the existence of any such beings, even the ones that I personally would like to exist. They inhabit my own imagination, and manifest through my own actions or not at all.

I definitely do not believe in the all-powerful deity described in the Bible. In my opinion, that god exhibits primarily alpha-human traits and was probably imagined up by the priests of some Mesopotamian ruling elite. It simply does not conform to what my intuition tells me a god would be like.

"I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself." Proof please?

Purely subjective and anecdotal on my part, hence my disclaimer "I am of the opinion that..." I myself, and other people that I know, have improved our lives without calling for religious intervention. If we could do it, it just makes sense that you could have done as we did.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, Blake...

I'm still here.

Anonymous said...

" I challenge you to contact this ridiculous God of yours and have him strike me dead tonight!

Why would I spend so much of my time debating with you if I wanted you dead? Only a fool would waste their time. I only write these things because I care. I would dare not pray such a thing. You are alive this very day because God wants you alive.

"Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!"

As for your website, I will pray. I will pray that the Lord will shut down your website for a time. However, it will be brought back and you will be the one to say "My God reigns."

In the name of Jesus Christ,
Blake

.:webmaster:. said...

In the name of Allah, the Easter Bunny, and the Flying Spagetti Monster, may all your dreams come true.

Anonymous said...

You know, there's one thing I do not understand: why don't you want to believe in God? Why do you want to find true evidence to his non-existence? What is your problem with this all faith stuff? Is your life better or easier without faith?
Do you want to know what I think? You fear. In the depths of your heart you fear that there may be a god and you'll be punished for your sins. You try to find an evidence (and all the bullshit in the article is NOT evidence) to ease your fear. I have no problem in my life due to my faith. I follow the Christian teachings and I have no problem. If you have problems following the Christian teachings you surely have done very hard sins in your life. That's why you HOPE there's no God above...
And OK, let's say you are absolutely pure and others, just don't want to believe in God... let me say something:
There are 4 possibilities:
1: God doesn't exist and you do not believe. Then there's no problem at all.
2:God doesn't exist but you believe he does. Then you live a good life without sins then die. Is it a problem?
3: God exists and you believe. Congrats, Heaven awaits!
4:God exists but you do NOT belive. You suck..............

Then, which is the best option? Undoubtly the way of faith. You have nothing to lose.

Oh, and one thing. The author of the article missed something: God is not about understanding. You're (we're) too stupid to understand. He's about faith. Of course I'm curious too about everything he wrote. You know what? I'll ask God after I died.

Jeff said...

No one was born with a knowledge of ghosts, Gods, spirits, Jesus, Allah Santa, your language, etc, etc.

All beliefs and your language come through mimicking what is taught by other humans only.

Now to prove to you or anyone, that neither a God nor a Jesus exists, all beliefs taught to you, disappear when you go to sleep, they disappear when you are unconscious, they disappear when you are under anesthesics, they disappear when you are dead, so this proves 100% that all things learned while your brain is conscious, suddenly disappears when your brain is either dead or unconscious.

Imagine all people removed from the Earth, God and Jesus and all Gods and myths suddenly disappear, Where do they go? They do not exist, they exist only in the conscious mind. Gods and myths are only from the fabrication of the human mind.


I challenge anyone to prove my statement in Bold above, to be wrong or untrue!

Anonymous said...

science is right there is no "god".and if there were a "god" witch one would you belive in there is plenty "Zeus","buddha" and much much more! think about it!

Anonymous said...

If "god" created every thing because every must have been created then "god" must have been created if "god" was created he is not "god" if he was not not created everything must not have a creator therefore why should life have one!

Anonymous said...

True statement i am no longer a christian! and i am proud of it now i can have some fun!

Anonymous said...

science is right there is no "god" just like there is no "Zeus" or "Buddha"!

Anonymous said...

Not that I did believe in a god (And if I were to, I would also believe that there is not a hell and that you merely learn from your mistakes when you enter 'heaven', but that's another story), but I tested your theory stating that if you pray that god reveal himself in a week.

Now let me state that I really let myself go on this one and let myself believe that there actually is a god while I was praying.

I used a 3 minute approach because it's all the same anyway. Well I relieved that I am still here, no evidence, and still know that religion is bunk. I just can't believe that I allowed myself to believe for all of 3 minutes... what a waste.

Good refresher though!

Anonymous said...

If god loves everyone and will forgive you for your sins, then when you die you will be forgiven. So I must disagree with the 4 premises. Hence here is the TRUE premises

1) God does not exist + You do not believe = nothing happens
2) God does not exist + You believe = given you don't pester people about their personal beliefs, no harm done
3) God DOES exist + you do believe = you go to heaven
4) God DOES exist + you DON'T believe = you STILL go to heaven

hence, why waste your time?

Anonymous said...

God is VERY REAL...I'm not gonna come on here and try to sugarcoat it either....
what have u got to lose if u belive in God?? If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!! You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING?? WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!! THERE'S NO1 LIKE THAT, NO MATTER WHAT U THINK/SAY!!
I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)

Astreja said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said...

Today's "Anonymous" said...

God is VERY REAL...

Prove it. You can start by asking your god to heal a few thousand amputees. Should be a cakewalk for an all-powerful being, right?

what have u got to lose if u belive in God??

My self-respect and countless hours of time that would be better spent elsewhere.

If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!!

Explain the contradiction in the above statement, please. Also explain why we should be afraid of *your* god but not worry about other religions and their gods and their version of hell. I understand that the Islamic hell is even nastier than the Christian version.

You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING??

Um... the "Submissive Jesus" thread is here, luv.

WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!!

I have eight cats. :-) And, unlike your god, they don't threaten to burn me for all eternity. (They do, however, keep my feet warm on cold winter nights.)

I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)

Yes. You forgot this:

"Remember! Order before midnight tonight and we'll throw in TEN, count 'em, ten plagues (only available in Egypt); a worldwide flood; four genuine Apocalyptic horsemen; and a dead fig tree."

Seriously: With gods like that, who needs devils?

Anonymous said...

I have an interesting question.

If the existence of God cannot be proved, how did the idea of God become known to the human race in the first place?

If it comes down to trusting that a human had divine intervention with God, then surely the argument must not be about the existence of God, but about truth behind the words of a human being.

If someone told you he knows that tooth fairies really do take teeth from under children's pillows at night; and another person said that this was something his imagination made up, which statement would you - honestly, in your heart - believe?

We live in a world where everything must be proven. Courts of law are one of the bedrocks of so called civilised society. Everything has to be proven in a court of law. Why then must we believe the words of a another human being that he had a divine intervention with God.

I have an interesting exercise. Spend some time creating in your imagination some almighty force - an all seeing hippopotamus, or your own God, perhaps; and, beginning with the most weak minded gullible person you can find, tell them of your divine intervention. Convince them of your belief; tell them to have faith. Then when you have convinced them, work on another, and another. Soon you will have a following, and power comes from numbers. Maybe your group can collect enough money to build a house of worship.

I am being cynical here; but the idea of God really comes down to believeing the words of persons who lived thousands of years ago.

The closest thing to the idea of God is our imaginations. We use our imagination to create anything we want. Look at some of the most famous stories of our times - Star Wars, The Lord of The Rings. The imagination has no limits. Maybe someone's imagination is where the ultimate of all fables came from.

Anonymous said...

People believe in God for one reason and one reason only: the basis of all human emotions - fear. We say to ourselves, what if there really is a God, and I don't believe in him? Then I will spend an eternity burning in hell. Wow, that sounds very scary; I think I better go against what i believe in and submit to the belief of someone else. Now if that doesn't sound like the work of the devil, tell me what is.

If God exists, and he loves us all, then why are he and the devil playing the sickest game of all?

Gabmling is a sin, is it not.

If so, then we are all taking the ultimate gamble with our souls. 1: We can believe in God and go to heaven, or 2: we can believe in God and go to hell. Just as there is the possibility that that God might exist, there is also the possibility that the devil might be tricking all believers in God to going to hell.

Which is the right decision? No one knows or will ever know. We are born, we suffer, we die, they are the only things in our lives we are certain of. After that, who knows...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Fundy posted at 11:02 and 11:10 AM 11-14-06 “You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.”

I was really hoping someone would bring up Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem here...

Great website!

Austin said...

This uncited essay's conclusions are simply drawn from other known philosophies which have been around for centuries. I see nothing novel in your approach to the topic of the spiritual or material existence of God. I really have to laugh at this article's attempt to make any valid point regarding this subject.

No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.

It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.

Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.

Sincerely, Austin, Texas

Austin said...

This uncited essay's conclusions are simply drawn from other known philosophies which have been around for centuries. I see nothing novel in your approach to the topic of the spiritual or material existence of God. I really have to laugh at this article's attempt to make any valid point regarding this subject.

No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.

It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.

Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.

Sincerely, Austin, Texas

Jamie said...

Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.


Agreed. What gets bothersome about for me is that in my fundamentalist upbringing I had to endure most of the peole I knew insisting that they did INDEED know the Will of this very God (whose reality we know is impossible to prove as you say).

Ay, there's the rub. We can't prove his reality or lack thereof, but we can still tell you exactly how to live your life based on His Will that we believe we DO know.

It doesn't even make sense.

Caleb Estes said...

This essay is rubbish. Now, please listen so I can tell you why:

God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us.

He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.

God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?

He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good.

You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend.

.:webmaster:. said...

Caleb,

You made some interestingly dogmatic statements.

You said, "God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us."

Really? And you know all this because... why? Why do you think that what you just said is a reflection of reality? Please don't tell me you read it in an ancient holy book. We have way to many of those floating about these days.

You also said, "He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.

Again, how do you know that any of what you just parroted is grounded in reality? Nice myth, but reality? Please present some evidence that any of this is anything but religious indoctrination.

You continued, "God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?

Same thing: HOW DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THIS IS TRUE? Are you a religious drone? Or did you come up with this nonsense on your own? Who taught you this stuff?

"He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good."

And you know this because...?

"You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend."

You seem really, really sure of all this. Again, why should anyone accept anything you just spouted? And since when is everlasting (eternal, never ending, horrific, retributive) punishment in any way just for temporal disbelief? Can you honestly say you believe that because you beat off, or stole a candy bar, or lusted after your classmate that you deserve eternal torture?

Is torture, even temporary torture, the right way to treat people?

eel_shepherd said...

Caleb Estes asks:
"...Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom,..."

But wait; isn't this the scenario (i.e. heaven) to which all Xtians aspire, democrats and monarchists alike?

Anonymous said...

heres the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god cause your dumb ass really doesnt no the answer cause noone does. life here will only be another 70 years or so but burnin in hell with be eternity make your choice now my friend. peace

.:webmaster:. said...

To anonymous:

Except, Buddy, Allah might be the one true god. Then what?

fjell said...

webmaster,

What slander is this?

You know Osiris is the one and only.

Damn.

fjell

stronger now said...

How DARE you all ignore the one true god of all!

FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god.

May he have mercy on your immortal shells.

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now said:
"FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god"
---
Ohhh-Now stronger (oops, stronger now),

Fred the turtle can't be god, but you're close.
The turtle god is made up of the four teenage mutant ninja turtles.
It's like the xtian Trinity +1 spare, just in case the devil gets a 'win' over this 4-part godhead.

So feel free to pick one of the four proper names from this godhead, but I assure you that Fred isn't one of them.

ATF (who always knew that the true gods lived in the sewer realm of earth)

stronger now said...

ATF,

In another thred Jim Arvo responding to a fundie said:

"If my pet turtle, Fred, created the universe, then he has provided ample evidence that he is god.

Agree? If so, then we can get straight to the interesting part: What evidence exists that god/Zeus/Fred created the universe? For the sake of pushing this discussion along, I'll start by positing that there is as much evidence for Fred creating the universe as there is for Yahweh creating the universe; in fact, probably a bit more, as Fred clearly exists."

Then I chimed in with:

"It reminds me of a story about a turtle who "on his shell holds the earth". To quote stephen king.

So I suspect fred is more than he seems.

All bow to fred! "


And so was born another deity to rule mankinds lives with fierce jealousy and tranquil repose.

The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Stronger said to ATF:
"The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter"
---
Okay Stronger, I'll concede that god Fred wins this one.

So let's see, what you're saying then is that my 4 turtles are really more a ummm "Splinter Organization" of this Fred turtle God? [g]


Here's a Turtle earth-creation story that's just as believable as the story from Genesis.
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6375/

ATF (who didn't mind being in error about the turtle gods)

.:webmaster:. said...

ATF:

The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity.

Got it?

fjell said...

No, Dave, ATF's turtles are simply a second manifestation (in what could be a long line of manifestations) of the divinity of the quadrune turtlehead.

Some of us spent years in spiritual torment agonizing over this very issue, so we'd appreciate if you would be so kind as to treat this with the spiritual equivalent of surgical gloves.

fjell

AtheistToothFairy said...

webmaster said:
"ATF: The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity"
--
Mister Webmaster,
Oh please, perish the thought that they might be demonic in nature.
God Fred would never allow such evil beings to roam the earth...Unlike that other xtian god does with compassionate ease.

I have FAITH that the Turtlianity 'stream' my turtles came from was a Holy righteous one.
Of course this 'stream' they were born from is getting a bit cramped now with their increasing size.

In fact I got a holy memo from them just the other day, saying they were moving onto larger pastures where they could find more suckers, errrr, open-hearted believers.

They were sure that by moving-up from their small stream to a much larger ancient river, that fewer disbelievers would find a reason to be in de-NILE of their sacred Turtlianity doctrine.


ATF

stronger now said...

Thanks for directing me to that ATF.

And just so you and the webmaster know, a "Shredder group" would be considered demonic.

Anyway, thanks for showing me that creation story. Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something.

boomSLANG said...

Annoyin'us popped in with:

[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.

So, let me get this straight---belief in "God" is the "answer to life", yet, you finish by saying "noone" knows the answer, including our "dumb asses".

Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further?

AtheistToothFairy said...

stronger now wrote:
"Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something"
----
Stronger,

If you have a few hours of spare time on your hands, this site is quite extensive on the subject of "Creation and Flood Myths and Legends"

http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04legends.html

I don't know how any thinking person could read thru all these many legends and still believe the xtian legend is the more logical one to believe.
Well, assuming a person has a need to believe in ONE of them that is.

Me, I'll stick with the big-bang idea as the most likely one so far.


ATF

AtheistToothFairy said...

boomSLANG wrote to anon fundie:
>[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.<

"Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further? "
------
Boom,
What we have here is a wonderful sample of the fundies we are trying so hard to educate.

I take it that their all-knowing god forbids them to know anything about the very evil, devil-generated, SPELLING and GRAMMER talents that we heathens tend to learn about?

Doesn't it make you wonder sometimes, who exactly they find to boot-up their computers and get them onto our website?
Perhaps the only letters this fundie knows how to put into google is GAWD and google then ask if he meant "GOD" instead..... and that is how he does all his google searching.


Hey anon fundie........
We know your god does all your thinking FOR YOU, but does he also spoon feed you all your meals as well?
No wonder your faith is so strong and your IQ so weak.

Perhaps you can still convince us heathens by performing a few magic tricks for us instead.
How about the water-into-wine one....always a favorite of mine.


ATF

Anonymous said...

This is the basis of my belief re: existence of God. I considered myself an atheist for awhile then agnostic. I personally feel there is no " divine intervention" by God on eart, we have free will to make mistakes and learn. A god that was merciful would just put you in a room and show you the national geographic version of the correct way to live and attain spiritual enlightenment IF HE/ SHE thought that woudl impart knowledge and wisdom. So obviuosly, if there is a god he/ she has devised a synd to say one is 100 percent sure stem whereby spiritual wisdom is somehting learned. BUT THE CRUX OF MY POINT REGARDING GOD AND ATHEISTS IS THIS: IF MAN IS UNABLE TO COMPREHEND THAT SOMETHING WAS MADE FROM NOTHING OR THAT SOMEHTING BEGAN FROM NOTHING THEN ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Its the basis of Socratic ignorance.

Webster said...

God too is bound by the logic. Logic is in his own creation. Any artist/creator always keeps his standards and maintains his own protocols. And its not right to say YET that omnipotence cannot be achieved under physical laws. That should suffice to prove that this proof is incomplete.

chimerafilm said...

You are as imaginative in your justifications for your beliefs as the Christians you seem to criticize. In many cases, more imaginative than many Christians because you read all these ideas in different places rather than getting them from a singular source. Many of them you even thought up yourself. But make no mistake, you are as much a prisoner of a faulty belief system as those you criticize, and are as completely blind to the truth as them. We are all blind to the truth, but we do not all have to feign knowing it as you and many religious fanatics do.

I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.

1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...

Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?

Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.

Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.

Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.

As it best said on another Atheism website:
It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.

First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.

Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:

* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge.
* The person in charge is Steve.
* Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.

Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.

This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.

From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html

2) Worship and Ontological evidence against gods

Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.

Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.

3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy.
God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.

4) Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.

Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.

Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.

To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.

chimerafilm said...

You are as imaginative in your justifications for your beliefs as the Christians you seem to criticize. In many cases, more imaginative than many Christians because you read all these ideas in different places rather than getting them from a singular source. Many of them you even thought up yourself. But make no mistake, you are as much a prisoner of a faulty belief system as those you criticize, and are as completely blind to the truth as them. We are all blind to the truth, but we do not all have to feign knowing it as you and many religious fanatics do.

I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.

1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...

Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?

Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.

Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.

Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.

As it best said on another Atheism website:
It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.

First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.

Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:

* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge.
* The person in charge is Steve.
* Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.

Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.

This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.

From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html

2) Worship and Ontological evidence against gods

Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.

Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.

3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy.
God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.

4) Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.

Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.

Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.

To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.

stronger now said...

Hmm? A couple of things.

"you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job."

Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?

"If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have?"

We would have the free will to decide whether or not a god is worthy of our worship. As you pointed out before, worship and existence are seperate issues.

"When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good."

If a gods existence is proven, then we would still have the free will to decide what is and is not good, and the ability to determine for ourselves if this god wants us to be good, and the ability to decide if this god fits our individual standards for what is good.

You're assuming that if a deity exists it must be good, or at least desires us to be good, and that a heaven exists. Why?

"He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."

As I have just explained, this statement is untrue.

"We are god."

You must be joking.

"Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist."

Occam's razor isn't meant to "prove" wheher or not a god exists, but to show that not all claims are equally plausible.

"It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god."

If that were the case then one could use any explanation for anything.

For example:

Q: Why did the apple fall from the tree?

A: Because the invisible pixies wanted to feed off of it near the ground.

A2: Gravity.

Occam's razor doesn't "prove" that pixies don't exist, but when used, effectivly eliminates the pixie explanation as the most plausible answer.

Just a start. I may be wrong.

boomSLANG said...

Chimerafilm...If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you.

What's this? One minute you're saying "I would have been with you" if the article was worded to your liking---as in, "Atheism: Why I think God does not exist".

Yet, you finish with this...

I only pray you can see.

You pray that we can see whAT?...that God does not exist? That requires no prayer, begging, nor pleading. Biblegod is just as implausible as square circles.

chimerafilm said...

I think you both missed my entire point.

I am not trying to say that God exists. I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.

My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know". And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.

I know what I believe. And I know what the poster of this article believes, and that's all well and good. But at least I have the self awareness to know the difference between beliefs and knowledge.

Beliefs are something we all have. Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.

What the author fails to see is that he is twisting his BELIEFS and calling it "KNOWLEDGE". He is doing the exact same thing as all all the leaders of every religous war in history.

KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God.
I don't object to his beliefs.

In answer to the question, what I'm I praying for...I'm praying that the author can see the irony and hypocrisy. I think I said that pretty clearly.

Also, in response to..."We are God." "You must be joking."

You just completely missed my point if you thought I was trying to convince you of that. It is an old spiritual belief. I believe it's Khabbalistic. And in my head it actually makes sense. But then again, I have a very good imagination.

At this point it's getting exhausting that all the responses to my post completely missed my point anyway, so...I think I'll just stop.

chimerafilm said...

One final note I guess.

Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil.

That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will.

The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe.

If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law. Otherwise it is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist.

But since I think we are both speaking in the hypothetical sense as if God, Good and Evil exist, I will continue.

You can choose to be one or the other in essence, but you cannot choose to change the dynamics of the law. You cannot define through free will what is and isn't good.

For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do. You will have to hide it, or you will go to jail. You cannot change that through free will. It's what is.

Free will only gives you the choice to act and believe within the laws of the world you are put in, those laws will react accordingly to your actions. Believe what you believe, but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up.

If there is no truth...then who cares. Beliefs are all anyone's got either way.

stronger now said...

"...at least I have the balls to admit 'I don't know'."

At least i have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."

"And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."

Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:

"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"

I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

"Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."

Umm? Yeah it does.

"That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."

If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.

Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.

"The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."

True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?

Oh yeah.

"If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."

Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.

"Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."

You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.

You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.

"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."

What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.

"...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."

So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.

stronger now said...

"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."

What if this innocent person was in such pain from cancer, a cancer that would eventually take her life, that she begged you to take her life by an overdose of pain medication, and even wanted to pay you to do it.

Would it be good to let her suffer longer?

boomSLANG said...

Chimera'....I think you both missed my entire point. I am not trying to say that God exists.

I assume you are talking to me, and if so, I ask you---why are you then "praying" for people? It seems to me that that at least implicitly suggests you're saying a "god" exists.

Chimera'...I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.

Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of "God", I'd be interested to know how "clueless" you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for "Creation":

- Marduk

- Ptah

- Brahma

- Kamui

?

Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e.."don't know"? Which one best represents your position? Be honest.

Chimera'...My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know".

Again I ask, how big do one's testicles need to be to deny the existence of the above-referenced "Gods"? This is what I'm trying to figure out from those who seemingly push the agnostic position.

Chimera'...And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.

Feel free to explain how using logic limits or "traps" an individual's thought-process.

Chimera'...Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.

Let me illustrate a point by analogy: Do you "know" square circles don't exist? Whether you do know, or do not know...do you "believe" square circles don't exist? The point I'm making is that if one presumably "knows" something to be true, it's fair to say they "believe" it to be true. On the other hand, if someone "believes" something, it doesn't necessarily mean they "know" its truth.

In think the author is more or less trying to say that the attributes that are commonly assigned to "God" by human beings, in the long run, are mutually incompatable; they create philosophical contradictions. Using logic, we can say with certainty that such proposed beings are conceptually impossible, and thus, their reality is impossible.

Now, if you want to go outside the laws of logic, then sure..of course, anything is "possible"! The Universe is your imagination's playground. Lots of luck with that.

AtheistToothFairy said...

chimerafilm said:
KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God

One can't actually 'know' that there is no god, however, one can sure know that we have zero credible evidence to support the existence of a god who intervenes in human affairs.
Lacking such evidence, it's not really sticking one's neck out very far to assume one need not worry about such a god, being in judgement of their lives.

How much do you stick out your neck to dismiss that the god Neptune affects our daily lives?
Do you know with total certainty that the god Neptune doesn't exists?

Well, I think it's a safe bet that the bible god resides in the same world of chance, as the god Neptune does.
Until some xtian can show me evidence that their bible god not only exists, but has the ability and willingness to affect the course of my life, then I'll have to take the default position of a no-god scenario in my life.


ATF (Who still thinks Neptune makes a far cooler god than the bible god ever did)

chimerafilm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chimerafilm said...

Italics didn't work on my last post. So I guess best of luck reading it.

I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.

I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.

If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.

Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.

chimerafilm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
webmdave said...

I would like to ask however…if there is no such thing as truth, what the hell are we all fighting about?

There are plenty of things that are true. Boiling water is hot. Freezing water is cold. Apples fall to the ground.

What is being discussed here is not is whether or not there are supernatural invisible, immaterial, super-dimensional beings entities flying around somewhere who demand that humans worship them. That is the real discussion.

So, if you claim that there are such living beings that exist beyond human comprehension, what is your evidence for the existence of those beings?

Oh, and by they way, I also doubt the existence of Big Foot, leprechauns and visitors to Earth from Alpha Centauri.

chimerafilm said...

FINAL ATTEMPT TO POST THIS RIGHT. IS THERE NO WAY TO DELETE POSTS WITH MISTAKES?

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"...at least I have the balls to admit 'I don't know'."

At least I have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."

REPLY:
Stronger now… I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. It is the author I have a problem with. Not you. The author does NOT seem to have said balls.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."

Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:

"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"

I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

REPLY:
Again I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. You did not seem so blindly sure of yourself. But since you seem insistent that I answer your question, I will try.

Logic can not help you to know anything other than the best answers to logical questions. Such as square circle cannot exist simply because of the defintion of a square and a circle. God is not a logic problem as much as the author would argue he/she is. Logically you can only deduce the probability that there is no god. You cannot deduct its certainty.

What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation. Logic is absolutely not any one of these. It is used in conjunction with them, but logic cannot on its own render the findings that any of these other tools can. They must all be used together. Logic has its limitations like any other tool.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."

Umm? Yeah it does.

REPLY:
I have to disagree. But I think you misunderstand. You can choose what YOU believe is good and evil. But if there is such a thing as truth, then you be right or wrong in what you believe. I

If there is NOT such a thing as truth, like a said, good and evil does not exist, and good boils down then to a human moral construct and better fits the way I think you see good and evil.

I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth. You define good as a question of morality. Morality is simply the way one interprets what is good or evil. If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.” Your intuition will tell you quicker than logic weather you believe something is good or bad, is this based on your moral beliefs, or a sense o the truth. I can’t say.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."

If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.

REPLY:
I disagree. I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action. This is true weather or not there is a god.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.

REPLY:
Then yes we could decide to believe that God was bad. That is within our free will. If we decide that God is sadistic and orchestrating everything on earth and most of the Earth is pain, then we might logically deduce god is bad. It’s an old argument and the most common among atheists. Athiests I think believe if there is god, he must have a hand in human affairs. Therefore either god does not exist, or god is evil. Fine, if that’s what you believe.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."

True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?

REPLY:
I think I tried to state this. If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.

I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes.

Well, I just think that is kind of a hard argument to sell. It is far more likely that there is no God than there is an evil God. It is much harder for me to imagine a supreme intelligence that decided to be evil. Simply because I believe evil to be a result of a lack of true wisdom. Evil as far as I can tell derives from false, twisted thinking. But that is simply my belief, so therefore it is hard for someone like me to imagine something with near perfect intelligence having false or twisted thinking. I find it much more plausible that there is either a ‘good’ god, or no god at all.

I don’t understand how your argument addressess mine really. Mine is that the author cannot know what he says he knows.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."

Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.

REPLY:
I already made my point on this one. I just disagree with you completely. If we truly choose what is good and what is evil, then there is no such thing as good and evil.

I am not talking about morals. Morals exist either way.

I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’. Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."

You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.

REPLY:
Again, I’ve already addressed this. But I did not say the human concept is worthless. I just said that good and evil therefore do not exist. Meaning they are then of course like you say, not laws in the universe. All totally possible. Again, off track. My point is that you cannot know for certain. You seem to be supporting me in this.

I would like to ask however…if there is no such thing as truth, what the hell are we all fighting about? That my belief is better than your belief. Who cares, aren’t we all trying to find out the truth?

My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me. This is of coarse a tangent again. My point still being that no one knows. I loathe it when people claim that they do. That’s what this author did.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.

"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."

What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.

REPLY
What is your point here? You have simply illustrated mine. That you can’t be sure. I don’t know the answer to these questions. They are all good ones. And everyone will answer differently. Again, my argument is that the author can not know God does not exist.

In answer to your question about why god must be good. As I said earlier, that is just my belief, for reasons that I stated. An evil god is far more unlikely to me that no god at all.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
"...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."

So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.

REPLY:
I have now answered it as best I think I can. Sorry, I had not been responding to this question in my earlier post.

chimerafilm said...

WEBMDAVE

I never said God existed. If you had read my posts you would know that. I am not trying to prove the existance of God. How many times do I have to say this?

chimerafilm said...

Italics didn't work on my last post. So I guess best of luck reading it.

I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.

I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.

If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.

Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.

webmdave said...

Italics don't work

Unless you mark up your text correctly. CLICK HERE

Did you happen to notice the little garbage can at the end of your posts on the comment post page? Clicking the garbage can will delete your comment.

webmdave said...

Then what is your point? Hmm?

boomSLANG said...

Since nothing from my second-to-the-last post was addressed, I'll now focus on this one statement:

Chimera' ....I am here [to]discuss his[God's existence].

Okay, me too. The questions I previously asked, I feel, are quite pertinent to this topic, that is, where "knowledge" of "God" is concerned, and where definitions of "God" are concerned. Here, again, is my comment, in relation to your previous remarks:

Chimera'..."I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God."

Me: "Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of 'God', I'd be interested to know how 'clueless' you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for 'Creation':

- Marduk

- Ptah

- Brahma

- Kamui

Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e..'don't know'? Which one best represents your position?"
[Italics added]

Also, you said you're not really here to talk about "God", yet, your latest remarks state that you want to talk about the "existence" of "God". Is there a distiction you'd like to make?

As for an "Absolute Morality", there is none. That doesn't mean there is no "Truth".

AtheistToothFairy said...

I sense a Quasi-Buddhist here.

Boom', don't the following statements from Chimera, remind you of a certain Buddhist we once entertained here?

---------------
I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth

I'm not "trapped" by logic

If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.”

If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.

I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action

I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’
Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.

My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me

Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is

----------------------

Chimera,

If, as you say, it can't be determined whether a god of some kind truly exists, then what makes you so sure that upon dying that this "truth" you speak about, will be discovered by each person?
Obviously, if no god exists and if there is no afterlife, one who dies will never find out this universal truth you speak of.

Of course, your last statement I quoted here, implies that we would discover this universal truth upon dying, which means you must have some reason to believe that we live-on after death, yes?
Care to provide us with some reasons why you think this afterlife scenario is a universal 'truth'?
Best as I can tell, there is no more evidence for an afterlife, than there is for a bible god.


ATF (Who thinks someone is trying to see if we ex-xtians would swallow a religion that is based on Buddhist philosophies)

victoria said...
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chimerafilm said...

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that there is an afterlife.

My definition of truth is meant to encompass the possibility that there is simply nothing after you die.

The simple truth could be that there is no afterlife.

My point being, only the dead know. The author of this blog does not.

I guess you could say if there is no after life, then when you die, you don't know, but then your missing my point and we are just mincing words again.

Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.

chimerafilm said...

Boomslang,

I did not answer your comments before because I do not understand you line of questioning. I will answer I guess.

I have only heard of two of the four dieties you describe. Marduk and Bramha.

If you really want to get into my beliefs we can. But I am trying not to bore people TOO much with what I believe. I also feel like you want to know them just so you can attack them. And ignore the point about the author I am trying to make. But I guess no one seems to be listening or agreeing with me anyway. So...

Experiences in my life have pushed my thinking toward this...I think most religions try hard to interpret something that people feel exists, but have a hard time grasping. Weather these dieties exist or not I cannot say. But what I can say is that they probably do not exist in the way the religion that portrays them says they exist. If there is a super-natural world, I think most of it is misinterpreted.

Perhaps they are all attempts to describe the same thing, perhaps one is describiing parts of a whole another understands better.

Do you have something further to add? I don't understand. As to weather I am clueless or I do not know. I guess "I do not know" better describes how I feel. Why?

Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god. Or do describe Athiesm that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?

I am all for being an Athiest if that is what you choose to believe. But athiesm is a belief system. I have a real problem with Athiests or anyone who thinks of themselves as enlightened.

I would think this is an argurment most Athiests would actually side with me on.

boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...

Chimera', do you know what I find ironic and slightly annoying? Well, it's that you unceasingly accuse others of "missing" your "point(s)", yet, you don't f%cking seem to "get" anyone elses points.

I'll capitalize on just a few statements for now:

You: Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.[bold added]

Let's review: We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are "married bachelors" and "square circles", respectively.

Do you follow so far?

The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if "God" is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such "God" can exist. 'Get it?

Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?

In other words, you can stand by your point all you want---in the end, said "point" amounts to non-sequitur.

You: Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god.

Again, the question is meaningless----you would first have to define which "god" you are refering to.

You: Or do describe [Atheism] that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?

The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.

stronger now said...

chimerafilm said:
"What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation."

Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense. I agree with you that they need to be used in conjunction with logic, but I disagree that any of them are better alone than logic is. Since I think I understand you on this, I'll move on.

"If there is absolute truth, there is 'actual good'."

Why? Why must there be actual good if there is truth? As far as I understand it, facts are facts, and they depend on humans to determine their "goodness". If humans no longer existed, what remains is neither good nor evil, it's just what is.

"I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence."

You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists. I have the free will to drive my car off a cliff. This doesn't mean I won't get hurt. It just means I have the ability.

Let me remind you that this part got started when you said that a god couldn't reveal his existence without destroying our free will. I disagree because I was thinking about the free will we would have in regards to whether or not we would have to worship him. Not about our free will whether or not we could believe in his existence. I think humans have an amazing ability(read free will) to believe what they want to, IN SPITE OF any evidence. Therefore I don't see a god revealing his existence as hindering free will.

"I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes."

No. This isn't my point. My point was that if a god exists it didn't create all things. Absolute truth is one of those things that must exist independently from a god.

Unless, of course, you think that god somehow created himself or existed before an absolute truth existed. And if absolute truth and absolute good didn't exist untill god created them, that would mean that a god existed without the ability to determine good and bad. Or you could go with the "god is everything" concept which would make god both good and evil, right and wrong. So which is it?
(Hint: Just use occam's razor here and you too won't have to worry over such things)

boomSLANG said...

Stronger' said...Let me remind you[Chimera'] that this part got started when you said that a god couldn't reveal his existence without destroying our free will.

If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it. Nonetheless, the notion is nonsensical, not that that is entirely shocking at this point. If "God" - pick a god; any god will do - "revealed" himself/herself/itself, we still have the "free will" to reject him/her/it. Moreover, I find it really insteresting that "God" is continually defined by what he/she/it will not do. 'Very revealing.

As for the christian biblegod, shit, he was allegedly making appearances all over the place just a few thousand years ago. Specifically, to "the Twelve", and to the over five hundred on-lookers. Note, this did not harm their "free will" or their "faith" one iota. Chimera's premise fails.

Shalom!

chimerafilm said...

Stronger Now...

Stronger Now Said:
The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.

REPLY:
RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:

Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.

Believe: (DEFS 3-5) 3) To have confidence or faith in the truth of. 4) To have confidence in the assertions of 5) to hold as an opnion; suppose; think.

You are simply wrong Stronger Now. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know. Please don't get so heavy handed with remarks like "fallacious thinking" when you haven't done your research.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense.

REPLY:
Exactley my point. But you seem to think logic is somehow different thatn the rest of these tools. As if it can stand alone. Logic cannot produce results alone, it can only produce deductions. Logic can also produce faulty results and seemingly good conclusions that actually dont apply to the real world. The real danger of logic is that when it is 100% wrong, it still seems to make sense.

Por Ejemplo: Logic will tell us: If I go faster I will get there quicker. Wrong. Thus far science tells us that if you go too fast, you will warp the flow of time enough to actually slow you down. While this of coarse needs to be tested and logic may still prevail in this case, you can at least get my point.

Since light-speed travel and balck holes and god all bend the rules of what we know about science and the universe, it is easy to assume that logical reasoning will lead us easily into false conclusions in reagards to things we dont' understand. Simply because we are making assumptions in our own reasoning that we feel are safe assumptions. The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world.

This same seemingly self-evident reasoning is what I am refuting about yours and the authors claims. Logic can get us into trouble.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists.

REPLY:
Sorry, I did not mean to misrepresent you. I guess I misunderstood. However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence. While yes, there is the possibility that "actual good' does not exist within absolute truth, I was simply speaking under the hypothetical that it does. When I am making assumptions in my arguments, I am trying to do it to make a point. I usually try to state when I am making assumptions.

It is my 'belief' that if there is a god, there is 'actual good', for some reasons that I've stated. But you needn't believe this. Nor am I trying to convince you of this.

STRONGER NOW SAID:
Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?

REPLY:
Yes I do. And Thank you. I am glad that we can finally agree on what I've been trying to get across. You cannot disprove God, nor can you Prove he exists. Therefore as you say, he remains unproven, but not disproven. My point exactly.

chimerafilm said...

I would like to add stronger now that my point is that the author of this column disagrees with you. He is saying that Can prove that God does not exist.

You seem to disagree with him. Is this true?

chimerafilm said...
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boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...

Chimera' misquotes Stronger Now, as it was I who stated the following:

Me..." 'Atheism' is not a 'belief'; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think 'Atheism' means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is 'a belief' is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning."

Chimera' responds:

RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:

Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.


Fine....

Atheist: noun 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[bold added]

(ref: Americian Heritage)

Dear Chimera',

"Theism" is the belief in God, yes? I hope you'll agree to that much. Putting the prefix "A" on "theism", is the same as putting the prefix "A" on other words, like "sexual", or "moral". So, a-sexual, or asexual, means NO sex. Likewise, putting the prefix "A" on "moral" means not having morals. Welp, the same holds true for A-theism, or Atheism...i.e..NO theism, or more concisely, NO BELIEF in "God"/gods. If you obstinately want to argue the point, then perhaps we can solve it with this simple test:

If I ask you if you belief in the Great Pumpkin, and loosely assuming you don't, which of the following answers best represents how you might answer:

a) "No, boom', I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin." ?

or.....

b) "Why YES, boom'!!..I DO believe that the Great Pumpkin doesn't exist!" ?

Suggestions: Be honest, and answer with "a", or "b".

You continue....You [are] not even addressing my issue.

Bullshit. You've given an executive summary of your "issue" more than once, and I've addressed it directly each and every time. Let's review:

Previously, you said:

Quote: **"Anyway, [I] stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god."[emphasis added]

And again, here is my response to this in its entirety:

"We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are 'married bachelors' and 'square circles', respectively.

Do you follow so far?

The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if 'God' is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such 'God' can exist. 'Get it?"


I can only conclude that you do NOT "get it". If I'm wrong, then please feel free to pick out which part you take issue with(of the above quoted), and explain in logical terms why you take issue with it.

You continue....As for the 'premise' of mine that you refer to. That is actually a 'hypothetcal argument', just like most of the authors and yours. Something you use to support a premise but if taken in the wrong circumstance or light, obvisouly you canpoke holes in it. I am not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to make points.[emphasis added]

Yes!!...quote, "points". See your statement here**, above.

Chimera'...It is not my 'premise'. My premise thus far has only been addressed by stronger now. Everyone else is circumventing it when they can.

So then your "premise" is, in fact, NOT your "point"? That seems a bit odd.

Chimera'...My premise is still and has only ever been: 'you cannot disprove god.'

Well, I guess that answers that. But 'funny how that "premise" is a mere rewording of your "point", above.

Again, review your "point/premise" if you must, and likewise, then review my refutation(s). Here is a synopsis for your quick review, as I don't trust that you will go back and re-read them, let alone, try to entertain them:

1) IF "god" is defined with, and/or, assigned attributes that contradict logic. We can logically disprove that "god".

2) If, in someone's imagination, an invisible, conscious being exists that contradicts logic, then fine. They are entitled to believe as such.

3) If an invisible, conscious being that is not self-refuting exists in reality, then no, we cannot "disprove" it. However, no one, including the author, is saying that such an incomprehensible being is disproven.

4) If a "god" as described in "3" cannot be disproven, it doesn't mean that such a being exists by default. That premise is a non-sequitur argument...i.e..if you cannot disprove "X", then "X" is true.

Let me know what I've "circumvented", and how. Thanks.

chimerafilm said...

Boom,

As I obviously missed the line that divided Stronger Now's and your comment. I am withdrawing my last statement directed toward you since you obviously HAVE attempeted to address my issue, and I hope Stronger Now can see from your post that I obvioulsy should have been referring to you in some of my responses rather than him.

I guess sorry for the confusion.

So no you haven't circumvented.

stronger now said...

O.k. I'm going to bail after this I think.

"The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world."

and:

"Logic can get us into trouble."

In a reply to Boom' you said:

"You are simply wrong [Boomslang]. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know."

In this little exchange you have made the assumtion that led you to an incorrect answer. Do you see what it was. It was when you thought that RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY is somehow infallible. Look up the definition of atheism in several different dictionaries and you'll get different definitions. But first play along with Boomslang and answer the great pumpkin question please.

"However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence."

True. But I was thinking about a punishment as the cosequence. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

Boom' concerning the free will thing:"If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it.

What chimerafilm actually said was:

"Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."

But by now this is beating a dead horse. Unless chimerafilm still believes this.

boomSLANG said...

Okay, Stronger'..thanks for referencing the original [Chimerafilm]statement in question. It essentially seeks to make the same claim as your paraphrazing of it, and thus, it is still equally fallacious.

chimerafilm said...

To be honest. From reading all of your statements, I think we actually agree on the big points here and are still managing to pick apart each others arguments for one reason or another.

You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?

As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.

Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...

chimerafilm said...

To be honest. From reading all of your statements, I think we actually agree on the big points here and are still managing to pick apart each others arguments for one reason or another.

You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?

As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.

Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...

webmdave said...

Truthfully going over all of it... GOD must be a female. What do you think?
And then all of the flack......hmmm, but what about it? Should it be such a hard thing to understand? GOD, as a WOMAN?

webmdave said...

Time is a dimension, just like height, width, and length. Dimensions exist regardless of "being."

webmdave said...

But (philosophically), does mass exist if there is no matter to have such a property? Similarly, does time exist if there is nothing to experience it? Before you answer yes, consider this third question. Does the colour "glaub" exist even though nothing of that colour exists?

Roger Penrose's more recent work treats such philosophical conundrums a bit more mathematically, but he's of much the same opinion as Heidegger. If we imagine a universe gone cold and dark from expansion, when nothing but photons remain, then it is essentially timeless. Only mass can experience time since all massless particles necessarily move at the speed of light, where (from relativity) time does not pass. Penrose then does a bit of mathematical jiggery-pokery (to use the technical term) that I don't pretend to understand to show this is an identical state to the 'pre-big-bang' universe, hence inevitably leads to a renewed big bang.

The idea that philosphers have some deeper insight into "ultimate questions" is laughable though. Most of the time they just build their castles upon air and hope nobody looks down.

webmdave said...

If God were a woman all the tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions would occur at the same time every month.

(Ooh, I'm going to catch hell for this...)

webmdave said...

"Thanks for reading."

Read that? Lol! You wish. Nah, I skipped right to the end. 'Ever hear of a paragraph break? Sheesh!

webmdave said...

First of all, Gdunn...

*BONK*

That's a special Samhain treat from your friendly neighbourhood Goddess of Punctuation, to Whom walls o' text are anathema. Now, let's see what manner of detritus lurks within...

"The existence of God can be proven, I think. Like someone has written already, if you seek him, he may be found..."

...In the human imagination. When you want to believe something bad enough, and are prepared to sacrifice critical thinking upon the altar of emotion, your brain can be quite obliging indeed.

"For me, one of the greatest 'proofs' that God exist, and that it is particularly the Judeo-Christian God , is the history of his chosen nation, Israel."

That isn't evidence for gods, Gdunn. That's evidence for humans going to extraordinary lengths to make "prophesies" happen.

"...the Savior Jesus Christ."

Almost certainly fictional and/or as dead as the parrot in the fabled Monty Python skit. Dead men are incapable of saving even themselves, and dead men do *not* come back to life except in works of fiction.

"Now, the fact that the nation Israel has survived is extremely miraculous. 2 days after declaring independence, no nation, save America {emphasis Mine}, had recognized them as a nation yet..."

Is that so? Then why did the United Nations have such a huge role in the process? Again, this is the work of humans... Not gods.

Oh, and the USSR recognized Israel in principle on May 17, 1948 -- Interesting that you emphasized "two days after independence" and omitted this tidbit of information from just one day later.

Sheesh. Mr. or Ms. Dunn, if you can't even get modern history right, why should we believe anything you say regarding invisible, intangible and undetectable gods?

webmdave said...

First of all, Gdunn...

*BONK*

That's a special Samhain treat from your friendly neighbourhood Goddess of Punctuation, to Whom walls o' text are anathema. Now, let's see what manner of detritus lurks within...

"The existence of God can be proven, I think. Like someone has written already, if you seek him, he may be found..."

...In the human imagination. When you want to believe something bad enough, and are prepared to sacrifice critical thinking upon the altar of emotion, your brain can be quite obliging indeed.

"For me, one of the greatest 'proofs' that God exist, and that it is particularly the Judeo-Christian God , is the history of his chosen nation, Israel."

That isn't evidence for gods, Gdunn. That's evidence for humans going to extraordinary lengths to make "prophesies" happen.

"...the Savior Jesus Christ."

Almost certainly fictional and/or as dead as the parrot in the fabled Monty Python skit. Dead men are incapable of saving even themselves, and dead men do not come back to life.

"Now, the fact that the nation Israel has survived is extremely miraculous. 2 days after declaring independence, no nation, save America {emphasis Mine}, had recognized them as a nation yet..."

Is that so? Then why did the United Nations have such a huge role in the process? Again, this is the work of humans... Not gods.

'Sheesh' indeed, boomSLANG. Mr. or Ms. Dunn, if you can't even get modern history right, why should we believe anything else you say?

webmdave said...

"When you want to believe something bad enough, and are prepared to sacrifice critical thinking upon the altar of emotion, your brain can be quite obliging indeed." ~ Astreja

Good one. I'm borrowing that.

webmdave said...

No, the fact that Israel exists is NOT a miracle.

I can't reply to any of the rest of whatever delusional nonsense you dumped here because there ain't no way I'm going to strain my eyes on this dense wall of dense text. Go back to 2nd grade and learn what a paragraph is.

webmdave said...

I've read through this whole thing and keeping my mind open and free, anyone trying to prove their is a 'god' really ran out of argument very quickly. It's funny how the religionists' have to revert back to faith and ending most of their opinions with preaching and 'god bless you'. Atheists certainly proved their points AND gave an answer to every contradiction that was thrown.


There really isn't a debate, the answer is pretty clear IMO

webmdave said...

"Today’s scientists are like religious gurus of earlier times. Whatever they say are accepted as divine truths by lay public as well as the philosophers."

This is the precise point your post lost all credibility.

webmdave said...

You have twisted yourself into a mental pretzel with this crapola. Did you have a real point to make or have you just been up all night smoking something?

webmdave said...

...Whatever they say IS accepted as divine truths...

In English, the verb agrees with the subject.

webmdave said...

Yet again, a fundie has dumped an un-readable dense wall of dense crap, with not one paragraph break, on our website in response to a very old post. (Eight and a half years old in this case!) I wonder what the science "gurus" would make of this weird phenomena.

webmdave said...

WTF are you trying to assert here?

Oh and next time how about you save my eyeballs from your wall of poo?

webmdave said...

I have to be honest. This is the most stupid thing I have ever read! You say, " Nobody believes in God ". How can you know what people truely believe? You just said in your ( article ) that all knowing is impossible, but you claim to know that NOBODY believes in God. The main problem with atheist is this....You have no Faith. You may not believe in God, but I KNOW FOR A FACT THERE IS A GOD! HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST!!!! You can say what you wish, but that doesn't make your OPINION FACT =) ...

webmdave said...

"I KNOW FOR A FACT THERE IS A GOD! [...] You can say what you wish, but that doesn't make your OPINION FACT"

Really? So why does you saying what you (literally) wish make your opinion any more a fact?

And if that were not hypocrisy enough you also included the following statement.

"How can you know what people truely believe? [...] You have no Faith."

How would you know if I have no faith?

webmdave said...

BraileyCharles,

"....The main problem with atheist is this....You have no Faith..."

BraileyCharles
It's your "FAITH", believing in a pile of mystical shit, that has no rational explanation or makes no logical sense, that has turned you into such an air headed nincompoop!

Welcome to the cult. There is an edifice, on practically every street corner in America, turning out your ilk.

You're welcome!
Dano

webmdave said...

In the words of Christopher Hitchens, "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be discarded without evidence."
Howsabout you come back when you actually have some evidence for your God; preferably some that hasn't been refuted a thousand times over. It's no more compelling the thousandth time shot down than it is the first.
(Don't forget, the burden of proof lies with those proposing the impossible [i.e., Gods], unless you'd be willing to grant the existence of celestial teapots.)

webmdave said...

I know for a fact that people such as yourself who KNOW FOR A FACT THERE IS A GOD AND HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST are deluded. Be a good lad and go away.

webmdave said...

I KNOW FOR A FACT THERE IS A GOD! HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST

Fine, then you surely won't mind providing your objective evidence for this god and/or this jesus christ character, right True Xtian?

I'm willing to be that your only evidence for your god is your own FEELINGS and little else.
Care to take that bet?

Hell, you can't even prove that jesus existed on earth, let alone in heaven as some god.

Come back when you have something worthwhile to present, okay?

ATF(Who wonders why so many theists are afraid of life, that they cling to a big sky daddy)

webmdave said...

BraileyCharles, whose Caps Lock key needs servicing: "I KNOW FOR A FACT THERE IS A GOD!"

Check your dictionary again, young one. The word you're looking for is 'believe,' not 'know.'

webmdave said...

By your reckoning evidence must be objective. Fine then. You won't mind supplying evidence that supports evolution- since I have 100 million pieces of fossil evidence and one almighty Cambrian Explosion that shut down that little tea party.

webmdave said...

Put downs are a childish response used by those who have nothing else better to add. Are we supposed to be won over by your amazing magnanimity and highly evolved manner?

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