Perhaps it's my age, or perhaps it's just my taste in music, but I've enjoyed the music of "Sting" for years now. I've followed him in his career with the Police and later as a soloist. I liked him better as a soloist. I own copies of nearly all his albums, so I suppose I am a pathetic fan and not able to think critically when it comes to the singing star. I mean, I've even acquired his jazz album for crying out loud. I even liked him when he debuted as an actor in "DUNE." (I love Frank Herbert's stuff)

Anyway, now he has written and released a book where he reveals his youth and development as a person. I received it as a, (shall I admit it?) Christmas present, and I have been enjoying it immensely.

OMG..... You have to read it. The spiritual aspect of this hero of modern music parallels so much of those who frequent this site. I highly recommend it.

You won't regret the read, and even though you will be adding to the fortune of this icon of entertainment, you will also be enriching your own life.
Sting - broken music
To order on line, click the book. Have a great read.

Seeing people burn will bring joy

Here are some quotes about hell from famous christians. What think ye?

(Christian author and leader from the 4th century)
They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints'. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.

(revered Christian leader from 200 A.D.)
What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.

(famous revivalist from the 18th century)
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

(composer of Amazing Grace and 600 other hymns)
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

Special thanks to nightbreeze for bringing my attention to these quotes. It still continues to amaze me how little modern Christians really know about the history and development of their religion. Christians from the past are easily brushed aside as irrelevant, unless of course whatever they said supports the latest modern interpretation of some doctrine or other. I suppose my favorite cliche' is when the Christian retorts with, "We don't follow men, we follow Jesus and the Bible," somehow implying that the Bible was not written by men and Jesus, if he existed at all, was not a man.

I know, these guys weren't real Christians! That's it!!!!

Any comments?

Hell's Expanding Borders

sent in by Hawman

I have heard more than one preacher make the statement that “ Hell’s borders are constantly having to be expanded because so many are dying in their sins!”

After reading the front-page article of my local newspaper and seeing its corresponding web page, I know it’s true. At least the expanding borders part. The headline trumps, Hawkins County Commission Set To Consider Resolution Recognizing God.

Just recently our state legislators wisely denied a state resolution, so now our wonderful local elected officials think they need to take up the cause. I wish that I could shortly report that they decided the state officials were right, but I fear that won’t be the result in this god-fearing little town! Just like terrorists, you get rid of one and three more pop up!

To me, this confirms the existence of hell. It’s right here on earth! The ever-expanding zealot fervor of the religiously insane has, is, and will always make life here on earth continual hell! From our poor excuse of a president, right down to local government, we must face that fact.

My dear rational, freethinking friends we are in a border expanding hell of blind shepards leading gullible sheep. Sadly, someday it might lead to the destruction of us all!

I end this little tirade on the happy note of knowing I for one am no longer a willing participant in such expansion projects. Unfortunately, I now must deal with the real hell it creates for those whose eyes are not clouded by the mists of myths & superstitions.

Here is the web page address if anyone cares to see the sad story:

Hawman is from Rogersville TN. He became a Christian at the age of 9 and left Christianity at the age of 41. Email Address:

What Would Jesus Drive?

This is not a joke, this is for real!

See a .mpg film clip by clicking here.

Traditionally, Evangelical Christianity is at odds with environmentalists and environmentalism claims. God is supposedly in control of the world and nothing can destroy the world before HE is ready to do it himself just prior to the final judgment.

In my opinion this is just one more symptom of attempts being made by the Meme of superstitious Christianity to remain relevant to an increasingly more educated population. This is but one more example of how thinking people realize that Christianity must change and adapt in order to survive into the future. Of course God never changes, so this presents a dilemma for the true Christian. If Christianity is changing and God never changes then there is a contradiction going on somewhere.

No matter how you interpret this WWJ Drive ad, it sure is funny.

Q: What would Jesus drive?

Public transit or private car? Stick shift or automatic? A sport-utility vehicle roomy enough for all 12 apostles or an economy model?

Perhaps Jesus would tool around in an old Plymouth because "the Bible says God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden in a Fury.''

In Psalm 83 the Almighty clearly owns a Pontiac and a Geo. The passage urges the Lord to "pursue your enemies with your Tempest and terrify them with your Storm."

Another scripture indicates that Yahweh favored Dodge pickup trucks. Moses' followers are warned not to go up a mountain until "the Ram's horn sounds a long blast."

Then it may be that Jesus would drive a Honda, although he wouldn't talk about it. In St. John's gospel Christ tells a crowd, "For I did not speak of my own Accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say.'"

And, following the Master's lead, the Apostles carpooled in a Honda: "The Apostles were in one Accord."

Bob's Journal

sent in by Bob

This is a very short diary of my thoughts from about the time I started to have doubts about the genuiness of my Christian faith, to the time of my deconversion.

I had been a Bible believer for about 6 years when I began writing down thoughts. Toward the end, as you will see, I was one miserable and confused SOB.

If anyone has any thoughts, let me here from you.

January 1985

A man is what he say’s he is, not what he appears to be, or what he claim’s to be, but what his conversation reveals him to be. The inner man is revealed by his words. The tongue and the heart are always in complete fellowship. Matthew 12:34-37.

Don’t try to explain bible doctrine to a lost person. The only thing they should be acquainted with is the gospel of the crucified Christ. They will be forever curious about things they disagree with. When their curiosity surfaces, share Christ crucified. Never get into an unnecessary conversation about doctrine with them, especially, if before hand, you believe they might disagree with you. Phillipians 2:14.

Complete surrender is necessary for salvation. If I am not willing to die for Christ, then he is not mine. Upon acceptance of Christ, one possesses all of Christ. Will He dwell in a temple that is not entirely His? Will He enter a heart that He cannot control? Will He save that soul that is not completely surrendered? Matthew 16:24-26.


I am troubled over this theology of “willingness”. I have often thought to my self and told God, “I am willing to go where ever, do what ever, and be who ever you want me to be”. I am beginning to wonder if God is pleased with willingness. Take the word “willing”, and write it next to the word “desire”. You see a difference. The definitions go from: “favorably inclined”, to, “an intense longing”. Willingness seams to be nothing more than indifference. Is God seeking those who have a “take it or leave it” attitude concerning His will, or those who will settle for nothing less than His will?

February 1986

Through lack of discipline, I have neglected these notes for a year. Many thoughts of great importance are gone, never to be recalled. What can be more important than the meditations of my mind? If they can’t be recalled, then whatever good may be in them can’t be applied. If they can’t be applied, then I waste a lot of time.

God has been faithful to me, as I have been studying some subjects these past few months. Subjects that there seems to be much disagreement over. I have based my beliefs on the teachings of man for so long that, when challenged, I have been without defense. I find there is no one I agree with and I find no one genuinely desiring the truth. My stand on these subjects is not dogmatic. I am open for spiritual persuasion.

Water baptism : Defended as necessary for salvation by some, as an outward sign of obedience by others. What is the mode? Sprinkling, pouring, immersion. Who's name do you speak during the ceremony? (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38) The arguments have been made for years. I wonder if water baptism, whatever its mode or purpose, might have ceased with the end of the apostolic age. (The completion of the New Testament.)

Holy Ghost baptism : Misunderstood by many, especially those in Pentecostal denominations. Upon acceptance of Christ, He comes to dwell in us and places us into his spiritual body. This “baptism”, or “placing into” is explained in the later part of 1 Cor. 12:13.

Tongues : Cults have sprung up around this spiritual gift stunting the spiritual growth of millions. I have never seen it done according to the scriptures. (1 Cor. 14) I believe it ceased with the apostolic age.

Tithing : I am amazed at how man finds it difficult to live under the grace of God and is therefore constantly placing himself under the law of God. A person should give of their money, (Which is Gods money upon salvation.) as moved by God. God is to be glorified, not paid back.

Eternal Salvation : Will God take this gift of salvation back when a person sins? This is another doctrine that strengthens denominational barriers. I have yet to find substantial scriptural evidence for ether belief, but I find it hard to grasp the idea of God snatching so precious a gift out of the heart of a Christian because of the sinful nature once again regaining control of the individual. It seems contrary to His nature to give us this “pearl of great price”, out of love and divine grace, as unworthy as we are, to then tear it from within us the moment we perform unworthily.

Pastoral Duty : In my Christian experience, the Pastor of the church has stood in front of the congregation three times a week and preached a sermon at them. Surely this is not New Testament worship. I see nothing in this practice but following the traditions of men. During the average church service, there is little room for the Lord to move people’s hearts. Everything is so predictable. Seldom have I attended church expecting to meet with God. The question then is,” Why go to church?”, or if we do go, ”What will we do if we don’t here a sermon?” The only answer can be - “surely God will show us.”

The Holy Trinity : I never considered this doctrine as questionable. I couldn’t understand it, but neither could anyone else. It seems that the scriptures do show a plurality in the Godhead, but I don’t believe this plurality is a separation of persons, but a distinction of attitudes, or modes of operation that God uses in dealing with man.


A true test of humility doesn’t occur very often, but when it does occur, Christians often fail. To admit you’re wrong after a minor remark, is no great feat of the humble attributes. Consider this test :

1) A doctrinal belief you have had for years has never been challenged until now.

2) All you can do to meet this challenge is to quote other people, not scripture.

3) Substantial biblical and historical evidence is given to prove your belief wrong.

4) The person presenting this evidence is physically, emotionally, and spiritually younger than you, and he is also from a different denomination.

5) If you are wrong, then so is everybody you have believed in for so long.
But remember; truth in one area does not prove infallibility, and error in one area does not prove carnality.

This past week I have been experiencing thoughts and feelings I haven’t felt before. After many months of studying books on the tongues movement, water baptism, the book of Acts, and discussing these subjects with a member of a different denomination, I am wondering if I know anybody who is experiencing genuine biblical salvation. I know of nobody who is living in the manner that is spoke of in the scriptures, especially myself. In considering Matthew chapter 5, 6, and 7, the attitudes spoken of by Jesus the Christ are nonexistent in the lives of professing Christians that I have encountered. All I have met are foolish men. (Matt. 7:26) I have lived the life of a foolish man. There has been little audible, and much less visible evidence to support my profession of faith. Why talk about it if I’m not living it?


I have reached a point in my life, which I guess could be called a valley. A spiritual Death Valley. It seams as though I have abandoned all that I once believed. Faith in the claims of the scriptures seems to be so weak, almost undetectable. I can’t honestly say that I have experienced anything during my walk as a Christian that would confirm what I claim to believe. I can offer no testimony of answered prayer, no victory over sinful tendencies, no boldness in sharing the bible with others. Maybe I have not been, as the Bible says, “born again”. Could it be that I have mistaken an intellectual curiosity, for scriptural faith? I wonder if the gospel seed that was sown many years ago, in my heart, found only rocky places where the soil was shallow. (Matt. 13) I want so badly to accept the spiritual claims of the Bible, but I find no evidence to support those claims. The evidence I am looking for is in the lives of those who call themselves Christians. I have read of people who could be called meek, merciful, pure in heart, and persecuted. (Matt. 5) People such as David Brainard, Reese Howels, and Richard Warmbrand, but I have never been acquainted with even one such person in the flesh. Where are all the “Christians”? Is the spiritual aspect of the Bible all fairy tales? Where are the over comers (1John 5:4,5), where are the lovers (1John 3:14-18), where are the righteous (1John 3:4-10), where are the holy (1Peter 1:13-16), where are the wise (James 4:17,18), where are the good (Titus 3:1-8)? Does anybody posses these God-given qualities? Does anyone really care more about his brother than he does for himself? I want to be one of those people, but for right now, I would settle for just meeting one.


It has been six months sense my last entry. As I can see, nothing has changed. My mind is very cold toward God, yet my relationship with my wife and boys has seemingly not been affected by my turmoil and complacency about religious matters. Emotionally, I’m fine. I don’t break down and weep, I don’t lose my temper, and I don’t fall into deep states of depression. My job performance is unaffected. So, how has my abandonment of all religious exercise affected my life? I don’t go to church, pray, witness, tithe, study the scriptures, etc., yet I’m still a productive member of this society. The only reason that I am not a very happy person seems to be that I miss being “religious”. I miss the routine, the theological arguments, the holy feelings, the confidence that I wasn’t going to spend eternity in hell with the heathens, yet I don’t seem to miss God. The only reason I can see, that I don’t miss God, is that I have never known Him personally, intimately. I’ve known Him only from what I have heard and read. Is that how you get to know the creator of the universe . . . talk about Him, read about Him? I think I really want to know the true God. I want to leave all ideas that I have about him, in the past. Even those that were truth, because I have no way of knowing truth from a lie at this point in my life. I just can’t trust my judgment in these matters. I must be taught by God Himself. I want God to teach me what a real servant of His must live like, inwardly and outwardly. I want to belong to Him, as a servant.

May 1987

Since my last entry, in my judgment, there has been no spiritual improvement. There seems to be definite signs of worldliness in my attitudes and actions. Two years ago I would have been in agony over my thoughts and my choice of words at certain moments. I am obsessed with photography. I spend a lot of time thinking about equipment and techniques. I feel guilty about this, but I’m unsure why . . .it is my job.

December 1989

Over the past two months I have had a renewed interest in God. The desires of wanting to trust Him, obey Him, rest in Him, and really get to know Him, have started to stir in me. The confidence that I once had, that God was real, has been revived. I have prayed for the first time in over a year. I have talked to Josh about the Lord for the first time in over two years. He still remembers and is still sensitive. I asked Caleb who God is, and he didn’t know . . .had no idea. This hit me very hard.
I spent the 19th of last month with Don. This was beneficial and, I believe, instrumental in my renewed desire for the Lord. My heart was dealt with as Don spoke. This is what I have prayed for recently. Thank you Lord.

September 1990

Since my last entry, I have had very little thought of God. Occasionally a twinge inside, maybe a little desire left, trying to surface. Maybe the Spirit of God? I don’t know. I don’t think like a child of God.
I don’t talk like a child of God.
I don’t react like a child of God.
I don’t live like a child of God.
Am I a child of God??? I refuse to be a “sham” Christian. I will be real, or nothing. Terry and Ray visited last weekend. Since then I have had renewed interest in the truth. But I believe I want the truth simply to prove others wrong. Can I seek after the Lord as much as I seek after the truth? Is finding the answers as important as finding the Lord? Where do I stand with God? Am I a Christian or an infidel? Have I been born again or deceived? Is Christ my savior or my judge? I honestly don’t know. Do I want to know???

October 1991

Since September 1990, I have not talked to any Christians except The Smiths in June of this year. Where are they? Do you have to go to church to find Christians? Well, I’ve tried that before . . . they’re not there.
My spiritual condition is unchanged. I dislike most people. Their attitudes ether anger me or bore me. My faith in God is dwindling daily. I love my wife and boys dearly though . . . why can’t I love God?

May 1995

My spiritual and emotional condition is disastrous. I see myself as a complete failure in every area of my life. I feel I am as close to being a ship lost at sea in a hurricane as a man can be. I don’t know which direction to try to steer toward, therefore, I drift, a victim of my circumstances. I am inconsistent, indecisive, temperamental, lazy, thoughtless, uncaring, vulgar. I hate my job and the people I work for. All this affects my family adversely. My boys aren't given or shown discipline. My wife worries about me. I am rapidly approaching 40 and my future is bleak. I don’t look fondly at my past because of where it has led me, financially, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. Where can I find relief? How can this downward spiral be halted? I need to find rest somewhere, somehow, or I am going to sink!

May 1996

No change. One year and no change. My entry from last year could be written again, word for word.

April 2000

In a matter of a few hours, the answer to my suffering for the past twenty five years has appeared. I now see with telescopic vision what has been hidden from view by superstition. It’s as if I have been released from leg chains in the hold of an 18th century slave ship and transported to a world of such natural beauty that I can’t find a point to begin observing it for fear that I will miss something in another location. The truth has broken through the thick shroud of old bible leather that has covered my eyes for so long.

There is no god!
Christianity is the biggest fraud that mankind has ever exposed himself to!
The bible is the work of men. It is a mixture of one part fact, to five parts fiction.
Science, not religion, is the source of truth in the world.

The guilt, self doubt, and worry that plagued nearly every waking moment of my life for the past twenty five years, has been replaced with a new wonder, a sense of adventure, and a freedom that can only be had when one is no longer shackled to a belief system that threatens to punish you for every human thought, word, or deed. There is no heaven, no hell, only birth, and death, and what ever you can learn, enjoy, and contribute in between.


There is so much to observe, absorb, ingest. I feel like a child. Like a vacuum, sucking up everything I see and hear. My god’s are: life, love, knowledge, truth, and pleasure. I believe this journal is complete.

The Necessity of Atheism

If he is infinitely good, what reason should we have to fear him? If he is infinitely wise, why should we have doubts concerning our future? If he knows all, why warn him of our needs and fatigue him with our prayers? If he is everywhere, why erect temples to him? If he is just, why fear that he will punish the creatures that he has filled with weaknesses? If grace does everything for them, what reason would he have for recompensing them? If he is all-powerful, how offend him, how resist him? If he is reasonable, how can he be angry at the blind, to whom he has given the liberty of being unreasonable? If he is immovable, by what right do we pretend to make him change his decrees? If he is inconceivable, why occupy ourselves with him? IF HE HAS SPOKEN, WHY IS THE UNIVERSE NOT CONVINCED? If the knowledge of a God is the most necessary, why is it not the most evident and the clearest.Percy Bysshe Shelley

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or he can, but does not want to; Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?

Ingersoll's Vow:

When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts -- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses -- free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself -- free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the "called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged monsters of the night -- free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no following another's steps -- no need to bow, to cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds.
And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain -- for the freedom of labor and thought -- to those who fell on the fierce fields of war, to those who died in dungeons bound with chains -- to those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs -- to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn -- to those by fire consumed -- to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still.

Robert G. Ingersoll

The Cross in Space

The bizzare nature of modern Christianity just keeps getting more and more irrational. As a few of the recent posters have noted, in order to believe in Jesus and the message of the cross, you have to put your reasoning abilities on the shelf.

Nothing in Christianity makes sense to a normal thinking human being. In order for it all to be acceptable to your mind, you have to deny reality and just believe.

I suppose with those sort of superstitious ideas in rumbling around in someone's head, having a cross in orbit makes complete sense.

Click here to see the site: The Cross in Space

What do you think?

Man, 91, dies waiting for will of God

from LarkNews®

TUPELO — Walter Houston, described by family members as a devoted Christian, died Monday after waiting 70 years for God to give him clear direction about what to do with his life.

"He hung around the house and prayed a lot, but just never got that confirmation," his wife Ruby said. "Sometimes he thought he heard God's voice, but then he wouldn't be sure, and he'd start the process all over again."

Houston, she says, never really figured out what his life was about, but felt content to pray continuously about what he might do for the Lord. Whenever he was about to take action, he would pull back "because he didn't want to disappoint God or go against him in any way," Ruby says. "He was very sensitive to always remain in God's will. That was primary to him."

Friends say they liked Walter though he seemed not to capitalize on his talents.

"Walter had a number of skills he never got around to using," says longtime friend Timothy Burns. "He worked very well with wood and had a storyteller side to him, too. I always told him, 'Take a risk. Try something new if you're not happy,' but he was too afraid of letting the Lord down."

To his credit, they say, Houston, who worked mostly as a handyman, was able to pay off the mortgage on the couple's modest home. •

Church promotes Haunted House as good family fun... but...

article found at Morons.Org

Abundant Living Ministries is dedicated to saving people from their evil, heathen ways, and from the eternity in Hell that they believe comes with such sinfulness. What better way to attract the pagan, devil worshiping public, than with a haunted house on Halloween? After all, as the pastor says, "Halloween is the high holy day for Satanism."

The house, called "Scream House", is promoted as an ordinary haunted house, appropriate for children as young as 10, and featuring, in addition to the house itself, food, a climbing wall, a dunk tank, etc. Good family fun!

Once parents plunk down the $5.00 per person admission fee, they and their children are treated to scenes, not of ghosts and goblins, but of teens overdosing on drugs, spousal abuse, murder and a woman killing herself with a gun. The scenes are apparently very realistic, the last scene included visitors being splattered with fake blood.

The church is completely unapologetic about the deception involved, including lying regarding the age appropriateness of the activity.

Stupid, Scary and Ignorant quotes

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that *tolerates* homosexuals."

--Jerry Falwell, 1993

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example."

--R. Furman, Baptist, of South Carolina

"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith."

--Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei

The Earth is degenerating these days. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.

- Assyrian Stone Tablet, c.2800BC

God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany."

--Hermann Goering, from Louis L. Snyder, "Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen", Berkley Books, 1990

"It is a just retribution for improper sexual misconduct"

--Mother Teresa, on AIDS

"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."

--Jimmy Swaggart

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -

--Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, during the trial of Galileo

[Planned Parenthood] is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism -- everything that the Bible condemns.

-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, April 9, 1991

The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.

-- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history.

-- Pat Robertson, interview with Molly Ivins, 1993.

Better a pink bottom than a black soul.

-- Rev. Lester Roloff, defending his punitive child-control techniques. Roloff was jailed in 1973 and again in 1975 for child abuse.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

--George Herbert Walker Bush, Former U. S. President, 1988.

Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free.

--Pat Buchanan

"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."

--James Watt, Secretary of the Interior during the Regan years.

"When you know the LORD you have no need for masturbation."

--Brice Wellington

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."

--Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech given 8/31/93 at Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."

--Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."

--Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan addressing the anti-gay rally in Des Moines, 2-11-96

''We are completely void of anything to do with God. Teachers can't touch a child - even to hug a crying child. Young boys are on Ritalin and a lot of the problem is because we have a female-dominated educational system which tries to make little boys act like little girls.''

--William "Bill" Murray, addressing the "God and Country II" rally, speaking about the need for prayer & Bible recitations in school

"The public school system is damned. Let me tell you how radical I am. Christian students should be in Christian schools. If you have to sell your car, live in a smaller house, or work a night job, put your child in Christian schools. If you can't afford it, homeschool."

--Jerry Falwell, "Trends in Christian Higher Education," Regent University, 9/22/93

Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism."

--Pat Buchanan (11/22/83)

"It's very healthy for a young girl to be deterred from promiscuity by fear of contracting a painful, incurable disease, or cervical cancer, or sterility, or the likelihood of giving birth to a dead, blind or brain-damaged baby (even ten years later when she may be happily married)."

--Phyllis Schlafly, founder and leader of the Eagle Forum

"When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell "Stop!" to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind. Then recite a portion of the Bible or sing a hymn."

--Mormon Guide to Self-Control

"I know one man who was impotent who gave AIDS to his wife and the only thing they did was kiss."

[Pat Robertson]

"Many of those people involved in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many were homosexuals -- the two things seem to go together"

[Pat Robertson, ADL report on Religious Right, page 131]

There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communist, atheists, New age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers and homosexuals are on top."

[Pat Robertson]

"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest."

[Jimmy Swaggart]

"The only way we can determine the true age of the earth is for God to tell us what it is. And since He has told us, very plainly, in the Holy Scriptures that it is several thousand years in age, and no more, that ought to settle all basic questions of terrestrial chronology."

[Henry Morris, ICR President, 1974]

"...this monkey mythology of Darwin is the cause of permissiveness, promiscuity, prophylactics, perversions, pregnancies, abortions, pornotherapy, pollution, poisoning and proliferation of crimes of all types."

[Judge Braswell Dean, in Time Magazine, March 1981]

Compassionate Indifference.

By webmdave

Christianity advertises itself as espousing the epitome of love. Ist John 4:16, We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Then we are taught that although people can experience love outside the framework of a Christian understanding, the love people have is inferior to the love of God. Romantic, or brotherly love is within the experience of the average person, but Agape love, the highest form of love, can only be experienced by those who have a close personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

When I was a Christian, I accepted this message. I believed that the Love of God was far superior to "base" human love. Human love was characterized as self-serving, looking for selfish advantage for the individual accompanied with little real care for any other person. In contrast, God’s love is giving and selfless, always looking for the best for others.

Is this really what plays out in the real life experience of the individual Christian?

No one in my family was a real Christian. I stood alone in a family of unbelievers for years. In love I witnessed to them. In love, I prayed for them. In love, I agonized over the ultimate destiny of their eternal souls. I was disappointed time and again by their rejection of my loving offers of salvation in Christ. As time went on and their refusal to repent seemed impervious to my loving solicitations, I had to accept the reality that my family would be spending eternity in eternal torment while I would be amongst the Lord’s chosen enjoying eternal bliss. I found comfort in the words of Jesus telling my to shake the dust off of my feet. I found encouragement when I read that anyone who loved parents or wife, etc. more than HIM was not worthy to be HIS disciple. In the face of unanswered prayers for my relatives, I lovingly hardened my heart against them. My brother lived a Christ-less life, and I continued to diligently pray for him. Then one day I received a call from my mother. My brother had been in a fatal one-car accident. He never did say the sinner’s prayer, take an alpha course on Christianity or make any gesture toward accepting Christ at all. In my mind there was no escaping the probability that my brother’s voice was now joining the screams of the damned in hell.

My faith in a Sovereign God was such that I had a great peace at the time. I was sad, of course, but did not go through the mind numbing grief I saw my sisters and parents go through. At the time I attributed my strength to the Peace of God which passes all understanding.

Feeling the love of God coursing through my veins, I took the initiative a few days after the funeral to witness to my parents and encourage them to accept Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. My words fell on deaf ears, and my intended compassion was received as callous to the horrific grief they were going through. My brother was 29 when he died just a few days short of his 30th birthday. My parents had just lost their son, and now their oldest son was telling them in so many words that one of their sons was in hell. Of course I didn’t intend my message that way. I only wanted to be assured that they would spend eternity in heaven with the God of Love.

What I was taught as a Christian to think of as compassion, played out in reality as indifference to the feelings of others.

This event eventually helped motivate me to aggressively examine the inconsistencies in Christianity, to see if the stock apologetics would stand up under harsh scrutiny. Resolving the dichotomy between believing in an all-loving deity who was brutally torturing my brother forever was an obstacle I began to struggle with. I also came to realize just how cold and callous I had become to the feelings of others in my quest to win them for the kingdom. I told myself that I was only doing the will of my heavenly father by warning my relatives of the wrath to come. I was risking their rejection of me, I thought, and was really going the extra mile to try and woo them into the kingdom. What I now realize is that I totally lacked empathy for the terrible grief they were suffering. Instead of offering them my love, I alienated myself from them, virtually depriving them of another son. I was an ass.

What is the point of this story?

Christianity claims to soften the sinner’s heart, filling them with the love of God. In reality the Christian’s heart is hardened to the plight of anyone outside the faith. John the Apostle tells his readers not to even bid unbelievers Godspeed. Paul says he wishes anyone who believes a different gospel to be accursed. Jesus tells a man who wishes to bury his father to let the dead bury their dead.

How could I ever enjoy the pleasures of heaven, praising the same God who is hurting my parents and siblings? How could I ever do it unless I had been fully inoculated against human love and filled with the compassionate indifference of Agape love. God’s love is certainly different from human love, but it is definitely not superior. The point is, far from giving me a more loving and giving outlook on life, I instead became quite insensitive.

What do you think?


Thanks to

It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward. In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity. Now that is AMAZING GRACE!

Babe and Hunk of the Moment – WHY?

Controversy is nothing new to this site. Much of what appears on ExChristian.Net creates an emotional response in the visitors. This is to be expected when one considers the nature of the content and the mindset of those who would be inclined to stay more than a few moments. I’ve stated on more than one occasion that I started this site initially as a place to post my testimony documenting my exit from Christianity. It began as a personal place to rant and sort out my own thoughts. In the two years since its inception, the site has grown to include articles written by myself and many others about specific points of interest to persons questioning their faith. Later, I added interactivity including the forums. The interactive portions of the site have grown in popularity and participation. I never really viewed the site as evangelical in nature, or as an attempt to undermine the faith of others. I think anyone who honestly reads the Bible, the development of theological thought, and the history of Christianity, will have all the material they need to undermine their own faith. However, with the apparent explosion of interest in the site, it has at times taken on evangelistic overtones. Some of those with Christian friends or acquaintances suggest this site to their associates as a resource to be referenced. Some parents want to use articles posted here to help their children understand why they are not Christians anymore. As such, certain aspects and portions of the site have come under closer scrutiny than I would have anticipated, even by those in basic agreement with the site's foundational premise.

Having said all that in introduction, I will come to the point of this article. Why does this site have a Babe and Hunk of the moment feature? Is it really necessary? Does it have any contextual relevance?

Frankly, nothing on the site is necessary at all, but there is a point to having the feature besides prurient interest. Christianity taught me all my life the sinfulness of nudity. The “world” appears to have little problems with nudity thus confirming to the Chrisitan that Satan is ruling everything. The Christian is fighting against the evil all around, attempting to hold back or attack the gates of hell – or however you want to express it. As Christians we were encouraged to view the differences in views on nudity, as well as nearly everything else, as a heavenly war between the forces of good and the forces of evil. Most Christians would consider any display of nudity or even partial nudity, as a tool of the devil to be resisted, and if possible, destroyed.

Is the Christian cultural view the best or most healthy view? Why do I think what I do about nudity, or partial nudity? Why am I so uncomfortable seeing scantily clad men or women? Since I am not a Christian anymore, is nudity that big a deal or not? Is it wrong, and if so why? Is it actually good and right, and if so why?

Jack Chick was a favorite of mine as a young Christian in the ‘70s. He had just started his tract ministry then, and I thought they were great. I was 11 years old and comic books were cool, especially when they had the message I believed. Obviously I think differently now, but I still find his tracts useful. They vividly and accurately display the inconsistencies in modern Christian thought. Take for example the one linked HERE. What I find interesting about his interpretation of the fall of humankind into sin is that even after all the dirt and filth are cleaned off the repent characters, they still keep their clothes on. Instead of being restored to their original created state of purity, they enter heaven just as ashamed of their nakedness as ever.

This topic of whether human nudity is really sinful or not is of concern to those with both feet firmly planted in Evangelical Christianity and is well covered by THIS ARTICLE. Here, in what is subtitled as "A study of social nudity from a Biblical and secular perspective," the writer of the article has done extensive research into historic perspectives on nudity. He carefully expounds on his subject and concludes quite accurately that cultural norms and biases have much more influence in our thought processes and prejudices when it comes to determining the definition of lewd behavior, than does anything else. We don’t decide for ourselves what is unacceptable as much as we 'feel' what is unacceptable based on our upbringing.

Another article which spends quite some time effectively documenting nudity in ancient to modern cultures, provides more for those who may want more information on the subject.

Obviously most of the frequent visitors to this site are from English speaking countries. The US is the most represented here, and as such share a common background and understanding in what is right and wrong about being nude outside the confines of the bedroom, the bathroom or the doctor’s office. The US citizen, well versed in Conservative Christianity, is often shocked to find out that other modern countries do not hold the same views on the shameful sinfulness of the human body. Here is what one young traveler had to say about a visit his family made to Hungary:
“Native people of Hungary have different norms concerning public discretion about nudity in public areas. Women prance around partially or totally nude in public swimming areas. This was greatly shocking to my girlfriend and I! We could not get over how many women just " bare it all" in swimming areas. Women that do not go naked are looked at like "Oh they must be tourists!!" We could feel the stares as we walked around these numerous public swimming places.

Nudity personally does not offend me-unless the woman is FAT- but this nudity may be detrimental to the normal and healthy development of a young child. Young children should not be exposed to this vast amount of nudity. They are just too young."
The complete article can be accessed HERE. This young person fails to see that his opinion concerning the normal and healthy development of a young child, not to mention his peripheral prejudice against fat people, is quite obviously not shared by everyone. I wonder if he even knows why he has the convictions he has.

In 1981, Pope John Paul II (then Cardinal Wojtyla) wrote: "Sexual modesty cannot then in any simple way be identified with the use of clothing, nor shamelessness with the absence of clothing.... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person.... The human body is not in itself shameful.... Shamelessness is a function of the interior of a person." (REF)

His Holiness apparently would consider it quite plausible that a naked person is "properly attired" for swimming or sunbathing.

Is nudity a sin in the Bible?

Adam and Eve:
Genesis says God created man and woman in His own image, Genesis 1:26-18 and again in Genesis 5:1-1. Adam begot Seth, in his own likeness and image, Genesis 5:3. To say that a part of God's image is indecent is no less than heresy. God saw that His creation was good, Genesis 1:31. Who are we to say otherwise?

Adam and Eve were naked and had no shame, Genesis 2:25. After eating the forbidden fruit, they discovered they were naked, Genesis 3:7, and made loincloths. However, I read an interpretation that claims a better translation is that they made belts.

When Adam hid from God because he was naked, God was not concerned with nudity. He was concerned with how Adam knew, Genesis 3:10-12. True He clothed them in skins, but he did not command them to wear these tunics, Genesis 3:21. This was to give them minimal insulation against the harsh world they would soon inhabit.

Noah and Ham:
Noah slept naked in a drunken sprawl. Ham saw him and told his brothers, Genesis 9:21-27. His brothers cover Noah without looking. I have found a source that claims the sin of Ham is failing to respect his father, ridiculing his father's moment of drunken weakness and gossiping. Another source claims there's more to the translation and implies that perhaps Ham looked on Noah with lust. Whether any of this is true is beside the point. God did not curse anybody here, Noah did, Genesis 9:24-27. God was apparently not concerned with drunkenness, nudity, disrespect, or gossip.

Leviticus 18 has been translated wrong in many versions of the bible as a ban on being naked with family. Apparently there are many versions of the bible that are afraid to make God's commandment clear. The New English Bible clearly show Leviticus 18 to be a list of people and things with whom and with which you should not have intercourse with. It is also a ban on sacrificing children.

Deuteronomy 28:48 includes nakedness as a punishment that will be suffered at the hands of enemies for failing to obey. Don't mistake this as a punishment for nakedness. Forced nakedness is still used as a punishment.

In I Samuel 19:18-24 Saul sent company after company to take David. Each of these and finally Saul himself stripped naked and fell into prophetic rapture all that day and night. That sounds like a sacrament.

II Samuel 6:12-23 describes a celebration in which David danced and blessed before his subjects wearing only a vest. He was criticized by Michal for exposing his person in the sight of his servants. David hardly defended his actions because he didn't have to. It is left to the reader to figure out why Michal had no children.

Job seems content to die naked in Job 1:20-21. Job 24:7-11 seems to express concern for the naked poor. It's hardly a condemnation of nudity. The concern is for being naked and bare. You might just as well say vulnerable to the cold night and rough roads.

God ordered Isaiah to strip and had him go naked for three years, Isaiah 20. This was to be a sign to Sargon that his army would be defeated and stripped. Parading naked captives was, and still is, a means of crushing their spirit.

Mathew, 5:25-34, tells not to be concerned with food or clothes. God will provided all you need. Food and clothes will arrive when needed. do you need food in your mouth and clothes on your back every minute?

Jesus himself had something to say about people making commandments out of traditions, Matthew 15. This is being done with nudity. There were past leaders within the Church who condemned nudity. That condemnation has been adopted as dogma.

Jesus points out that field workers must not turn back for their coats when the end comes, Matthew 24:18. Jesus knew, and had no objections about people working naked in the fields.

Luke's description of a possessed man who didn't wear clothes, Luke 8:27, is hardly enough to vilify nudity

Modest Dress:
Women are ordered to dress modestly, I Timothy 2:9. This is not a command to wear clothes at all times, rather it is a command against elaborate clothes, jewelry and hair. This is a command which many women violate.

A collection of secular & religious source quotes on the topic is available HERE.

In conclusion I would like to quote an excerpt from a letter to the New York Tribune, from Mark Twain in 1873 where he describes his trip to Hawaii:
"About the Natives:

These people used to go naked, but the missionaries broke that up; in the towns the men wear clothing now; or if they have company they put on a shirt collar and a vest. Nothing but religion and education could have wrought these admirable changes. The women wear a single loose calico gown (mu'umu'u – A loose gown, so called because in their haste to get the ladies covered up, the missionaries designed them without a yoke so they could be made faster - so many beautiful bodies to cover, so little time - that falls without a break from neck to heels.)

In the old times, to speak plainly, there was absolutely no bar to the commerce of the sexes. To refuse the solicitations of a stranger was regarded as a contemptible thing for a girl or a woman to do; but the missionaries have so bitterly fought this thing that they have succeeded at least in driving it out of sight -- and now it exists only in reality, not in name.

These natives are the simplest, the kindest-hearted, the most unselfish creatures that bear the image of the Maker. Where white influence has not changed them, they will make any chance stranger welcome, and divide their all with him -- a trait which has never existed among any other people, perhaps. They live only for today; tomorrow is a thing which does not enter into their calculations."
I am not a nudist myself, nor am I advocating a nudist lifestyle in publishing this article. What I am suggesting is the benefits of doing a little introspection to determine what we deconverting Christians think and why we think it.

What do you think?

The Suffering Savior?

Why did Jesus suffer? We are told that he suffered and died for our sins, but I find the whole concept confusing.

First of all, what is so efficacious about suffering? Is there some secret ingredient to being in agony or privation that is somehow superior to feeling good? Is there a secret power that tends to make physical suffering moral while warning us that physical pleasure is immoral? Perhaps pleasure makes the soul weak while pain makes it strong? I fail to understand how discomfort in another person has any impact on me whatsoever, other than eliciting pity from me towards the unfortunate victim. To imagine that someone else’s pain, such as that supposedly experienced while Jesus was being whipped and gruesomely murdered, benefits me in some way is a bizarre concept.

This whole idea about the benefits of suffering is vaguely reminiscent of childhood confrontations with foul tasting medicine that was said to be good for me while mouth watering sweets were castigated as bad for me. It appears to me that the religious psyche is encumbered with a masochistic tendency in its pursuit to promote pain while at the same time denigrating pleasure. Of course this may help explain why sex is surrounded with such negative connotations in the Christian mind. Since sex feels good, then it must be potentially destructive to a person – right?

I find no redeeming qualities to pain for pains sake if I suffer it personally and even less if someone else suffers it. It might be argued that some types of pain are actually good for you, such as when a person exercises rigorously. Pain can also keep a person from harm, or from greater harm. For instance, the person who accidentally touches the hot burner on a stove will react from the initial pain by removing his or her hand immediately. Without the warning pain, the person may lose their hand. Pain has its uses, but how can anyone think that an invisible spiritual benefit could be gleaned from receiving forty lashes at the end of a whip? Better still, how the human race can benefit when one poor carpenter from Judea is being abused at the end of a cruel whip. I don’t see how that would contribute to the betterment of either the victim or those who hear about it.

Aside from the convoluted thinking that champions pain, let me ask another question: what did Jesus actually suffer?

He was born poor. Excuse me, but there have been untold millions of people who have been born to poor circumstances. Being poor is certainly not something to be envied, but is it all that uncommon in the world? What makes Jesus so special by being poor? If you want to say he is divine and left all his glory to be poor, well so what. If he is deity, then he has the ability to make everyone prosperous and has chosen instead to keep millions poor. They will never be rich, but after a short little camping trip on Earth, this Jesus went back to his glory. It sounds like the king who puts on pauper clothes so he can muck about with the regular folk unnoticed. When he gets bored of the exercise, he goes back to his palace and takes a bath. Besides, the bible really doesn’t have much nice to say about rich people. Rich people are always vilified while the poor are set on a pedestal. A rich god would be a bad thing. Being poor was not part of any significant suffering as far as I can tell.

He was mocked, spit on, whipped, and crucified. How many people throughout history have been treated in a similar fashion? Is there anything really unique about the way Jesus supposedly suffered as compared to so many all over the planet? Jesus was tortured for a day or two and died a day later. How many in POW camps were tortured for weeks and months before they died a horrifically slow demise. How many thousands have rotted away in prison for years as political prisoners, innocent of any crime? How many have died slow torturous deaths by ruthless and unforgiving disease? How many have helplessly watched loved ones waste away racked with pain as cancer or some other mindless disease slowly sucked their bodies of life? Suffering for a day or two is bad, suffering for years on end is measurably worse.

Someone might mention that Jesus bore all the sins of the world and suffered the full weight of the wrath of his Father. How long did he suffer this full weight of wrath, whatever that means? Was it an hour, three hours or three days that he had to suck it up? Either way, it is still nothing. According to most Christians who post on this site, every non-believer will spend eternity in hell suffering the full wrath of God. Eternity is much longer than a few days, so I think my threatened suffering in hell would have to be much worse to anything Jesus ever suffered.

I was taught that part of the reason for Jesus suffering was so he could identify with us. He would understand what it is like to be a human and we would know that he was willing to come down to our level to relate with us. Well bully for Him! How quaint that He who designed and implemented the whole creation including the inevitable death, decay and sadness, who also has the power to change it, who could have made it so it excluded all the terror and tragedy, chose to humble himself for a couple of short years and see how the peasants live. Jesus lived an ordinary peaceful life until he was about 30 and then did the traveling miracle man / story teller routine for at the most 3 years. Finally at the end he endured a really horrific weekend. WOW! SOME SACRAFICE THAT WAS!

I’m sorry, I just don’t see how anything that the mythological god-man went through can be thought to be anything even close to what uncountable men and women have been, and still are, subjected to all across our world and our history. It is time we humans stop blubbering for an ancient non-existent, or overrated, deluded martyr, and start devoting our energy toward those alive today that we can actually help.

Myths are for history class and children.

Adults know better…..

What do you think?

Super Pope

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Unconditional Love...

I have heard it so many times that it is indelibly etched into the very fabric of my subconscious. Usually the rhetoric goes something like this:

"God's love is not like human love. There are conditions placed on the fragile affections between people, but God's love is greater than that. He loves us just as we are and accepts us unconditionally."

Is Bible-God's love really unconditional? There is at least one Christian who understands that God's Love is not in any way, shape or form "unconditional".

Let me quote a small part of this Christian author's perspective on the issue:
"A Critical Review of a Pop Religious Truism
Scripture clearly teaches that God's love (phileo, agape, aheb, ahabah, etc.) is unfailing, undeserved, and unilateral (completely one-sided in initiation). But is God's love without condition--I.E.: UN-conditional?

On this we should consider three things.

1) Where did this idea come from?

2) Is it consistent with Scripture? and

3) Is it false prophecy?

On 1), you will not have to look back very far, as this is uniquely an American, 'modern' doctrine. It is never once mentioned in Scripture, nor do any of the church fathers use the phrase."
The rest of the article can be found HERE

The main premise of this Christian's disertation is that without real repentance followed by willing obedience to the commands of the Triune-God of the Bible, no love is granted. The writer makes a very good case for his position, fully supported by solid passages in THE BOOK. This very concept is one of the realizations I came to while still a Christian and one of the issues that helped me understand what an unloving tyrannical parent that "our Father which art in heaven" really is.

Unless a person becomes a Universalist, there is no alternative for the Christian but to believe and accept that untold millions/billions of people are being relegated to an unloving, unforgiving, eternity, in the flames of of the Lake of Fire. Hell is not corrective discipline; hell is eternal punishment. Hell is not a merciful punishment of separating miscreant spirits from the rest of the harmless heavenly universe; hell is mind-boggling torture and pain for all eternity. Hell is the full measure of an offended angry Parent poured out unceasingly on all those who for one reason or another either never heard the gospel or found it to be simply unbelievable.

Is there any love in hell? Absolutely not.

Since God is love, hell is the absence of God. Hell is supposedly the total and complete separation of mankind from God and therefore a complete separation from love. The descriptions of hell picture it as a sadistic place of insanity, violence, and unfulfilled lust. It may have been created for the devil and his angels as the good book says, but the loving Father in heaven imagined it, created it, and commands those who don't accept Jesus in their hearts to "Depart from me ye cursed into..."

Imagine, if you will, a family who follows the example of this loving father. The Father of the family would require the children to turn from their own ways and endeavor to follow his commands without question. Stumbling but repentant children would be forgiven and accepted, but rebellious children who refused to tow the line, after a limited number of opportunities to get with the program, would be tortured unmercifully in the basement for the rest of their lives. Children, rather than being loved unconditionally, would have at least a few rules that they must adhere to in order to reap the rewards of Dad's favor. If they refused to adhere to the Dad's arbitrary, even if minimal, requirements, then the Dad would he justified at some point to pour out the full measure of his wrath until his sadistic offended heart was satisfied.

Obviously such a father would be prosecuted and placed under a doctor's care for mental instability. Such a parent might be justifiably called a monster. It is simply unnatural for a parent to stop loving their own children. Parents are often disappointed, angry, fed up, and emotionally hurt by their children, but no parent wants to see their children dead or in horrific painful torture. This is even evident of parents of the criminal or criminally insane. The parents often realize that their children must be locked up for society's and their own good, but the parent who wants their child to suffer painfully forever is pretty rare, if such a parent even exists at all.

Bible God's personality and view of justice is rooted in a primitive patriarchal time that was often cruel and inhuman by today's standards. Modern Christianity understands this at some level, so attempts in many ways to give their chosen deity a better more palatable image. God is made in our image so Christians today demand a nicer, gentler god that they can love and respect. That is not the God of the Bible. He is cruel, demanding, and jealous. He will not stand for disobedience and dominates his insect-like creations by HIs ever present threat of eternal retribution for failing to get on board with His “loving” program.

Unconditional? No way!

Spell Check?

Thinking about the demonstrated spelling abilities of some of the more emotional detractors who have posted lately, I wonder how long it took before anyone at this convention even noticed a problem?

It seems to me that someone who does not even make the effort to check their own spelling, probably does not make much effort with many things. That would especially come across if the person were trying to show why it is a good idea to be a Christian. If they gloss over simple English usage, they are quite likely guilty of glossing over a whole lot more.

The sign would be funny, if it weren't so sad.

What do you think about people who are too lazy to even attempt to spell things correctly?

The Greatest Story Ever Told...

Is about to get a little more interesting.

It's been two thousand years, and somehow things have gone from bad to worse...

Jesus Freakin - coming soon

God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserveth wrath for His enemies. Nahum 1:2

It's time for the Good Lord to do a bit of house cleaning.

Heaten Cam viewWith the Almighty Power of God, along with a 21st century arsenal, you - Jesus Christ - are sent back to earth to kick some ass and take names (resulting in a list that St. Peter would likely kill to get his hands on).

They've ignored Your warnings since the beginning of time. They've forsaken You, twisted Your message, rejected Your gifts and turned away from Your church at every opportunity.

No more chances.

No more excuses.

The End is at hand.

Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire. Isaiah 9:19

If this sounds like a joke, it's not. I emailed the contact for the website and he assures me that the site is for real and so is the game. Although it is not quite ready for release, it will be soon enough.

What do you think? Would you buy it? JesusFreakin.Com

Love the SInner - Hate the Sin

This is one of my favorite Christo-speakese phrases. It demonstrates yet another example of the ignorance Christians have about their own rule book, the Bible, as well as an attempt by modern believers to make their God nicer than he really is. A quick search on GOOGLE will reveal that this phrase, or a variation of it, is found in numerous online sermons. I know that I myself heard that quaint concept repeated uncountable times in the many churches I frequented during my long tenure as a true believer.

On the face if it, the phrase seems like a nice idea. Basically I take this to be an admonition to be nice to everyone, regardless of ideology, but lovingly stand against their non-Christian lifestyles, behaviors, etc. I would agree with the "be nice to everyone" attitude, and commend those who try to adopt the policy. To debate the value of this simple philosophy is not my issue here, but to demonstrate that although such thinking may be a nice fluffy Evangelical ideal, it is not in the vocabulary of Bible God and it is certainly not part of Christianity. In the style of how I approached things in the past as a Christian, I ask now, "What saith the Scriptures?"

1) God is angry with the wicked every day. Psalms 7:11

Notice He is not angry with the sin, while loving the sinner. He is angry with the wicked themselves, the person, the individual, the human being.

2) God distributeth sorrows (to sinners) in his anger. Job 21:17

3) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

Sounds like God's displeasure is with the person again, not with the sin as if it existed outside the person. He even says he made the wicked for a certain reason, the day of evil. Here it doesn't come close to sounding like HE loves them.

There are absolutely dozens and dozens of verses in the Old Testament that I could use to prove my point, but there are too many modern Dispensationally hampered Christians who retreat from the hard theology of the OT to hide their minds behind a shield of, "that was the old covenant, so it doesn't count anymore." "We are in the new and better covenant of love, mercy and forgiveness." So, rather than get on a rabbit trail and belabor the fallacy of dividing the hokey word (err, holy word), I will only use the NT from here on out.

3) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Luke 6:45

The sin and the sinner are tied together. They are absolutely one and the same in the mind of the Bible writers.

4) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Jude 1:12

Love the sinner and hate the sin? I don't see it here.

5) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2 Peter 2:12

Still no love for the sinner while hating the sin.

6) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (aka: CURSED). 1 Corinthians 16:22

Love the sinner but hate the sin? I think not.

7) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 John 1:10

Love him? Hell no...... Don't even invite him into your house!

8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

It is not the sin that is finally confined to the bowels of hell in God's loving plan, it is the people themselves.

It's sad, but the harsh, arrogant, condemning, angry Christians who try to rebut the articles on this site, and who send in the harsh judgmental letters, are actually closer to following the plain teachings of their deity than the more reasonable Christian commentators. Nowhere does the B-I-B-L-E teach that sin should be hated while sinners should be loved. A sinner is one who sins, pure and simple and the only way a sinner is ever given the possiblity of being loved is if he turns from his unbelief and sin. Up until then, there is no real offer of love. The love of GOD has huge strings attached, and the formula for getting in on that love has no alternatives. The sin that really puts that sinner in the Christian hell is rejection of Jesus as "personal savior." (Where in the bible the concept of "personal savior" comes from could be the topic of another rant, but for now I'll let that one alone.) If for any reason a person on the planet does not submit themselves to the requirements for receiving that "LOVE." then that person is totally rejected, condemned and eternally tortured without mercy.

It is commendable that many who have swallowed the blue pill of oblivion sending them into the fantasy world of Christianity are unwilling to adopt the horrific world view of Bible God. It is humanistically commendable, but it is not historic Christianity. One reason so much of Christian history is drenched in bloodshed, promulgated by "Christians" is because the religion does not teach tolerance of other lifestyle, or religious choices in any way shape or form. The only people that Christians are commanded to tolerate, are other believers. Those outside the fold are goats and chaff destined for the burning flames of hell, pure and simple. You can call your God love if you want, but the only ones he really loves are HIS own people. In the O.T. it was the Hebrews HE cares about and in the N.T. it is the Christians. Everyone else only exists as a tool to demonstrate HIS nefarious attributes of wrath, anger, ect.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

"All things" includes sinners and the hell they are condemned to inhabit for all eternity.

I present the plain words of these verses as a challenge to modern Christianity's idea that loving sinners while hating the sin is supported or taught by their mythical J.C., or his equally nonexistent Sky Daddy or any of their self appointed mouth pieces from their holey book.

Christianity is not about love, it is about closing your mind and doing what you are told.

Bible Teaching and Religious Practice

by Mark Twain
from Europe and Elsewhere & A Pen Warmed Up In Hell

Religion had its share in the changes of civilization and national character, of course. What share? The lion's. In the history of the human race this has always been the case, will always be the case, to the end of time, no doubt; or at least until man by the slow processes of evolution shall develop into something really fine and high -- some billions of years hence, say.

The Christian Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes. For eighteen hundred years these changes were slight -- scarcely noticeable. The practice was allopathic -- allopathic in its rudest and crudest form. The dull and ignorant physician day and night, and all the days and all the nights, drenched his patient with vast and hideous doses of the most repulsive drugs to be found in the store's stock; he bled him, cupped him, purged him, puked him, salivated him, never gave his system a chance to rally, nor nature a chance to help. He kept him religion sick for eighteen centuries, and allowed him not a well day during all that time. The stock in the store was made up of about equal portions of baleful and debilitating poisons, and healing and comforting medicines; but the practice of the time confined the physician to the use of the former; by consequence, he could only damage his patient, and that is what he did.

Not until far within our century was any considerable change in the practice introduced; and then mainly, or in effect only, in Great Britain and the United States. In the other countries to-day, the patient either still takes the ancient treatment or does not call the physician at all. In the English-speaking countries the changes observable in our century were forced by that very thing just referred to -- the revolt of the patient against the system; they were not projected by the physician. The patient fell to doctoring himself, and the physician's practice began to fall off. He modified his method to get back his trade. He did it gradually, reluctantly; and never yielded more at a time than the pressure compelled. At first he relinquished the daily dose of hell and damnation, and administered it every other day only; next he allowed another day to pass; then another and presently another; when he had restricted it at last to Sundays, and imagined that now there would surely be a truce, the homeopath arrived on the field and made him abandon hell and damnation altogether, and administered Christ's love, and comfort, and charity and compassion in its stead. These had been in the drug store all the time, gold labeled and conspicuous among the long shelfloads of repulsive purges and vomits and poisons, and so the practice was to blame that they had remained unused, not the pharmacy. To the ecclesiastical physician of fifty years ago, his predecessor for eighteen centuries was a quack; to the ecclesiastical physician of to-day, his predecessor of fifty years ago was a quack. To the every-man-his-own-ecclesiastical-doctor of -- when? -- what will the ecclesiastical physician of to-day be? Unless evolution, which has been a truth ever since the globes, suns, and planets of the solar system were but wandering films of meteor dust, shall reach a limit and become a lie, there is but one fate in store for him.

The methods of the priest and the parson have been very curious, their history is very entertaining. In all the ages the Roman Church has owned slaves, bought and sold slaves, authorized and encouraged her children to trade in them. Long after some Christian peoples had freed their slaves the Church still held on to hers. If any could know, to absolute certainty, that all this was right, and according to God's will and desire, surely it was she, since she was God's specially appointed representative in the earth and sole authorized and infallible expounder of his Bible. There were the texts; there was no mistaking their meaning; she was right, she was doing in this thing what the Bible had mapped out for her to do. So unassailable was her position that in all the centuries she had no word to say against human slavery. Yet now at last, in our immediate day, we hear a Pope saying slave trading is wrong, and we see him sending an expedition to Africa to stop it. The texts remain: it is the practice that has changed. Why? Because the world has corrected the Bible. The Church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession -- and take the credit of the correction. As she will presently do in this instance.

Christian England supported slavery and encouraged it for two hundred and fifty years, and her church's consecrated ministers looked on, sometimes taking an active hand, the rest of the time indifferent. England's interest in the business may be called a Christian interest, a Christian industry. She had her full share in its revival after a long period of inactivity, and his revival was a Christian monopoly; that is to say, it was in the hands of Christian countries exclusively. English parliaments aided the slave traffic and protected it; two English kings held stock in slave-catching companies. The first regular English slave hunter -- John Hawkins, of still revered memory -- made such successful havoc, on his second voyage, in the matter of surprising and burning villages, and maiming, slaughtering, capturing, and selling their unoffending inhabitants, that his delighted queen conferred the chivalric honor of knighthood on him -- a rank which had acquired its chief esteem and distinction in other and earlier fields of Christian effort. The new knight, with characteristic English frankness and brusque simplicity, chose as his device the figure of a negro slave, kneeling and in chains. Sir John's work was the invention of Christians, was to remain a bloody and awful monopoly in the hands of Christians for a quarter of a millennium, was to destroy homes, separate families, enslave friendless men and women, and break a myriad of human hearts, to the end that Christian nations might be prosperous and comfortable, Christian churches be built, and the gospel of the meek and merciful Redeemer be spread abroad in the earth; and so in the name of his ship, unsuspected but eloquent and clear, lay hidden prophecy. She was called The Jesus.

But at last in England, an illegitimate Christian rose against slavery. It is curious that when a Christian rises against a rooted wrong at all, he is usually an illegitimate Christian, member of some despised and bastard sect. There was a bitter struggle, but in the end the slave trade had to go -- and went. The Biblical authorization remained, but the practice changed.

Then -- the usual thing happened; the visiting English critic among us began straightway to hold up his pious hands in horror at our slavery. His distress was unappeasable, his words full of bitterness and contempt. It is true we had not so many as fifteen hundred thousand slaves for him to worry about, while his England still owned twelve millions, in her foreign possessions; but that fact did not modify his wail any, or stay his tears, or soften his censure. The fact that every time we had tried to get rid of our slavery in previous generations, but had always been obstructed, balked, and defeated by England, was a matter of no consequence to him; it was ancient history, and not worth the telling.

Our own conversion came at last. We began to stir against slavery. Hearts grew soft, here, there, and yonder. There was no place in the land where the seeker could not find some small budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land but one -- the pulpit. It yielded at last; it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn fight, and then did what it always does, joined the procession -- at the tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery text remained; the practice changed, that was all.

During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch -- the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. In Scotland the parson killed the witch after the magistrate had pronounced her innocent; and when the merciful legislature proposed to sweep the hideous laws against witches from the statute book, it was the parson who came imploring, with tears and imprecations, that they be suffered to stand.

There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.

It is not well worthy of note that of all the multitude of texts through which man has driven his annihilating pen he has never once made the mistake of obliterating a good and useful one? It does certainly seem to suggest that if man continues in the direction of enlightenment, his religious practice may, in the end, attain some semblance of human decency.

George Carlin on Religion

I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood. [George Carlin, from the album "A Place For My Stuff"]

We created god in our own image and likeness! [George Carlin]

I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, 'This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me.' [George Carlin, in the _New York Times_ 20 August 1995, pg. 17. He attended Cardinal Hayes High School in the Bronx, but left during his sophomore year in 1952 and never went back to school. Before that he attended a Catholic grammar school, Corpus Christi, which he called an experimental school.]

If churches want to play the game of politics, let them pay admission like everyone else [George Carlin, from the album "What Am I Doing In New Jersey?"]

This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen. [George Carlin, on Saturday Night Live]

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. [George Carlin]

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money! [George Carlin, fromalbum "You Are All Diseased" (it can also be found in the book "Napalm and Silly Putty".]

The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

A man came up to me on the street and said I used to be messed up out of my mind on drugs but now I'm messed up out of my mind on Jeeesus Chriiist. [George Carlin]

I have as much authority as the pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

Jesus was a cross dresser [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

I finally accepted Jesus. not as my personal savior, but as a man I intend to borrow money from. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

Instead of school busing and prayer in schools, which are both controversial, why not a joint solution? Prayer in buses. Just drive these kids around all day and let them pray their fuckn' empty little heads off. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

When it comes to BULLSHIT...BIG-TIME, MAJOR LEAGUE BULLSHIT... you have to stand IN AWE, IN AWE of the all time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an INVISIBLE MAN...LIVING IN THE SKY...who watches every thing you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten special things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time...but he loves you. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased"]

I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

Trillions and trillions of prayers every day asking and begging and pleading for favors. 'Do this' 'Gimme that' 'I want a new car' 'I want a better job'. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday. And I say fine, pray for anything you want. Pray for anything. But...what about the divine plan? Remember that? The divine plan. Long time ago god made a divine plan. Gave it a lot of thought. Decided it was a good plan. Put it into practice. And for billion and billions of years the divine plan has been doing just fine. Now you come along and pray for something. Well, suppose the thing you want isn't in god's divine plan. What do you want him to do? Change his plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a divine plan. What's the use of being god if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and fuck up your plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have; suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? 'Well it's god's will. God's will be done.' Fine, but if it gods will and he's going to do whatever he wants to anyway; why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me. Couldn't you just skip the praying part and get right to his will? [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Ok. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with. For years I asked god to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog. Joe Pesci straightened that cock-sucker out with one visit. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes. [George Carlin]

Here's another question I've been pondering- What is all this shit about Angels? Have you herd this? 3 out of 4 people belive in Angels. Are you FUCKING STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? You know what I think it is? I think it's a massive, collective, psychotic chemical flashback for all the drugs smoked, swallowed, shot, and obsorbed rectally by all Americans from 1960 to 1990. 30 years of street drugs will get you some fucking Angels my friend! [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

What about Goblins, huh? Doesn't anybody belive in Goblins? You never hear about this.. Except on Halloween and then it's all negative shit. And what about Zombies? You never hear from Zombies! That's the trouble with Zombies, they're unreliable! I say if you're going to go for the Angel bullshit you might as well go for the Zombie package as well.. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

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