Do You Believe in Magic? (And I Hope You Don't)
By Bret P
Because of my past associations with various churches and living in the bible belt for ten years, a good majority of my Facebook friends are believers. There is quite a range in the levels of rationality and amicability among them, but given my fundamentalist background, it's understandable that I would have a few that are extreme on the right (some of those who are extreme are attempting to understand, so I don't want to lump them into one solid mass).
Needless to say I really can't go a day (yes I'm a Facebook addict) without seeing some kind of "praise the lord" or other wishful thinking in my news feed. This isn't really a problem in and of itself, and far be it for me to curb anyone's freedom of expression.
I'm relatively new in my committed stance on the improbability of a deity. I'm coming out of the closet so to speak, and just feel the need to break the assumption that I agree with my former associated theists.
Once in awhile I'll post something on my wall that might be a little agitating to believers, but since it's on my own page, I feel I'm within my right to express my thoughts and feelings. For me it's more about initiating discussion and raising awareness, not just to be controversial. Well I posted a status update over the weekend that got some unexpected attention:
"I wonder what our national debt would look like if churches weren't exempt from paying taxes. Hmm. We probably wouldn't have a national debt."
Now I would hope it's somewhat obvious that I intended it to be a more tongue in cheek comment about the separation of church and state, rather than a solution for our enormous national debt. Of course not everyone knows me well enough to get my humor style, but boy did I get a couple of interesting responses.
One of my very conservative friends made a joke about the government taking the money and doing nothing with it, which I thought was clever and funny. I agreed and elaborated a bit on why I made the comment in the first place. No issues there.
My thread caught the eye of the daughter of one my former pastors, and without engaging in the discussion at all, she posted "Answer not a FOOL!" in the comment thread. I felt the need to address this, as I thought it very rude and immature, but she had de-friended me. Talk about a hit and run comment. No tears shed for this loss. I think it's actually quite funny (and also sad).
What I wasn't prepared for was a rather fiery reply from a former college classmate. The details aren't all that important, but she obviously didn't understand my intent. I called her out on some of her points, to which I got an even more fiery, condescending, and very defensive reply.
What stood out was her outrage that I made a claim that the church promotes scientific illiteracy, and ranted about how she had two science degrees (bachelor's in nursing, currently working on her master's) and still believes in creationism.
I think this is pretty easy to detangle. Just because someone understands how the body works, doesn't mean that they understand (or need to believe) the documented evidence of how it evolved in the first place. Do I really need to list the evidence for evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang?
This person may be scientifically literate in the function of the human body, but failed on a fundamental level to apply scientific methods and principles to her own belief system. Since she is a self proclaimed believer in creationism, it's safe to assume that she believes in magic.
God magically created humans. God magically concocted the Genesis flood (by all scientific accounts, the whole story is absolutely absurd). Snakes and donkeys talk, bodies of water part into walls, a virgin was impregnated by a spirit, a man comes back from the dead, and an invisible spirit dwells and manifests itself in humans. The list goes on and on (which I'm sure most anyone who reads this is more than familiar).
Of course it's very likely that I may be de-friended when this gets published. I won't deny that there is commendable charity work being done by religious institutions, and for that specific work I believe that tax exemption is valid.
What I have a problem with is that these institutions have no reasonable evidence for their claims and beliefs, yet they use tax free money to proselytize, advertise, and exert influence on politics. This is a HUGE violation of the establishment clause in the first amendment of the constitution.
I'd absolutely love it if I could put on a concert and rant my ideals to a willing audience, and take up donations tax free. I understand why there was such fiery backlash as the Christian right gets quite defensive when their tax exempt status is threatened (and I'm severely skeptical that my Facebook comment has the power to do this).
Christians seem to be all for free speech, until someone criticizes their claims and status. I shouldn't be surprised how my rather benign observation created such a fired up response, but I am.
Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and I fully support that right. I also exercise the right to criticize claims of magic (even if it's disguised as miraculous events caused by almighty god). I find it far more inspiring to explore and try to understand the wonders of the universe than to be awed by anecdotes of magic. Even in disagreement may we continue to discuss, debate, and express our opinions in a civil and intellectually honest manner.
Image by garethjmsaunders via Flickr
I'll freely admit that I've become somewhat cantankerous lately. It's not that I'm an angry person, in fact I'm far from it. I laugh at life's follies, and thoroughly enjoy my existence. I am frustrated however.Because of my past associations with various churches and living in the bible belt for ten years, a good majority of my Facebook friends are believers. There is quite a range in the levels of rationality and amicability among them, but given my fundamentalist background, it's understandable that I would have a few that are extreme on the right (some of those who are extreme are attempting to understand, so I don't want to lump them into one solid mass).
Needless to say I really can't go a day (yes I'm a Facebook addict) without seeing some kind of "praise the lord" or other wishful thinking in my news feed. This isn't really a problem in and of itself, and far be it for me to curb anyone's freedom of expression.
I'm relatively new in my committed stance on the improbability of a deity. I'm coming out of the closet so to speak, and just feel the need to break the assumption that I agree with my former associated theists.
Once in awhile I'll post something on my wall that might be a little agitating to believers, but since it's on my own page, I feel I'm within my right to express my thoughts and feelings. For me it's more about initiating discussion and raising awareness, not just to be controversial. Well I posted a status update over the weekend that got some unexpected attention:
"I wonder what our national debt would look like if churches weren't exempt from paying taxes. Hmm. We probably wouldn't have a national debt."
Now I would hope it's somewhat obvious that I intended it to be a more tongue in cheek comment about the separation of church and state, rather than a solution for our enormous national debt. Of course not everyone knows me well enough to get my humor style, but boy did I get a couple of interesting responses.
One of my very conservative friends made a joke about the government taking the money and doing nothing with it, which I thought was clever and funny. I agreed and elaborated a bit on why I made the comment in the first place. No issues there.
My thread caught the eye of the daughter of one my former pastors, and without engaging in the discussion at all, she posted "Answer not a FOOL!" in the comment thread. I felt the need to address this, as I thought it very rude and immature, but she had de-friended me. Talk about a hit and run comment. No tears shed for this loss. I think it's actually quite funny (and also sad).
What I wasn't prepared for was a rather fiery reply from a former college classmate. The details aren't all that important, but she obviously didn't understand my intent. I called her out on some of her points, to which I got an even more fiery, condescending, and very defensive reply.
What stood out was her outrage that I made a claim that the church promotes scientific illiteracy, and ranted about how she had two science degrees (bachelor's in nursing, currently working on her master's) and still believes in creationism.
I think this is pretty easy to detangle. Just because someone understands how the body works, doesn't mean that they understand (or need to believe) the documented evidence of how it evolved in the first place. Do I really need to list the evidence for evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang?
This person may be scientifically literate in the function of the human body, but failed on a fundamental level to apply scientific methods and principles to her own belief system. Since she is a self proclaimed believer in creationism, it's safe to assume that she believes in magic.
God magically created humans. God magically concocted the Genesis flood (by all scientific accounts, the whole story is absolutely absurd). Snakes and donkeys talk, bodies of water part into walls, a virgin was impregnated by a spirit, a man comes back from the dead, and an invisible spirit dwells and manifests itself in humans. The list goes on and on (which I'm sure most anyone who reads this is more than familiar).
Of course it's very likely that I may be de-friended when this gets published. I won't deny that there is commendable charity work being done by religious institutions, and for that specific work I believe that tax exemption is valid.
What I have a problem with is that these institutions have no reasonable evidence for their claims and beliefs, yet they use tax free money to proselytize, advertise, and exert influence on politics. This is a HUGE violation of the establishment clause in the first amendment of the constitution.
I'd absolutely love it if I could put on a concert and rant my ideals to a willing audience, and take up donations tax free. I understand why there was such fiery backlash as the Christian right gets quite defensive when their tax exempt status is threatened (and I'm severely skeptical that my Facebook comment has the power to do this).
Christians seem to be all for free speech, until someone criticizes their claims and status. I shouldn't be surprised how my rather benign observation created such a fired up response, but I am.
Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and I fully support that right. I also exercise the right to criticize claims of magic (even if it's disguised as miraculous events caused by almighty god). I find it far more inspiring to explore and try to understand the wonders of the universe than to be awed by anecdotes of magic. Even in disagreement may we continue to discuss, debate, and express our opinions in a civil and intellectually honest manner.
Comments
Peter peddles his miracle manna and LeRoy sells his miracle water (from a well in the mid west - god told him where to drill). Richard Roberts is famed Oral Roberts' son. Paul and Jan Crouch founded the PTL Network television empire. You haven't lived if you have not seen Jan Crouch!! She has pink hair (not punker pink, old lady pink....she's in her 60's). She can't speak without crying (black streaks of eye liner running over her cheeks, a-la Tammy Fae); typical Pentecostal lunatic.
What can I say about Benny....maybe the richest and certainly the worst of the bunch; con-man extrordinaire! With all of his healing ministry he had to rely on getting hair plugs for his curse of baldness. His god wasn't even powerful enough to tickle his follicles into action. LOL (:D
XPD
I pretty fond of Peter Popoff and his path to wealth and happiness through Miacle Manna.
That'll come it quite handy.
I just cannot understand it!!! If, in another situation, someone got defensive about criticism of their position on a NON-religious matter, the xtian would be suspicious of this person's position based simply on their defensive reaction to the criticism. Yet the xtian cannot see themselves as this defensive person in a religious context. This lack of consistent reasoning (or perhaps introspection) is what led me away from xtianity...or anything that behaves in the same/similar manner. Can anyone please explain this to me?
I can ignore these little trinkets. I couldn't ignore my sister's post of "Letter From Hell" that she and others of her church were sending to children, especially her response to me when I told her I thought it was frightening and a bad thing to send out to kids. So, I actually un-friended my sister. (If you haven't seen this, look it up on You Tube. Disgusting.)
But, I keep my FB account in order to view photos of my grandbaby and keep up with my kids and a couple of old friends. Since most of my family are christians (except my kids), I don't post any atheist thoughts, but I do post intelligent thoughts by Twain, Jefferson, and others. I doubt that they will make my relatives think any more than their christian posts will make me a christian.
Like you I was addicted to Facebook too. I made the decision over two weeks ago to deactivate my account. It was tough at first and I've had withdrawals but I don't have to read those Christian comments which made me angry and frustrated. I finally get that you can't argue with a Christian. I know because I used to be one of them so I try to remember how I used to be. I would not have believed an atheist and would have put them in an evil box and "pray for them". Those days are over! If I do decide to go back to FB, I will pick the "friends" I want and put the ones I don't on block.
but you cannot make him drink
you can send a fool to college
but you cannot make him think
At least with the government, all of us have a chance of getting something back from them but try going to a church and asking for help and see what happens. Make sure you wipe your feet.... you don't want to soil the new carpet.
Jesus rose from his grave. People share communion where they eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood so they can be like Jesus.
O.o
I find that totally ridiculous! This is the 21st century!
I also find it ridiculous that churches don't have to pay taxes when they just keep on accumulating wealth and realty.
At last count the RC Church owned over 1 billion dollars of real estate in the USA alone! That's just 1 church.
Christians are the most superstitious people I know.
SOME of them know very well.
I get these little sayings from my nieces every day.
Vanderbilt may be conservative, but they're still a top private university. Their science education programs are top notch.
One needs to only understand the function of the body to treat it, but one must understand evolution in order to make advances in medicine. It amazes me that she fails to see this.
And I work for the government. :)
You are right, but I think Bret was being more sarcastic than truly questioning in his rant.
I think it is a point that is well taken; it would be grand if we could live like Benny Hinn, Paul & Jan Crouch, LeRoy Jenkins, Richard Roberts, et al. (enter the name of your favorite millionare evangelist) under the guise of needing to be a Tax Free organization, because we are delivering goods and services to the poor and needy (which is why the tax-free status was first enacted).
As for the Nurse that still believes......I know all about that line of resoning. My daughter in law is studying to be a nurse. She is very intelligent (gets staight A's) but when it comes to the myth of religion, OH BOY! I have been forbidden from bringing up anything that goes against God or Catholicism in her home! My poor grand kids get drug to Mass every Sunday.
The medical field is full of believers, doctors and nurses - I'm not sure why that is the case? Good topic for Dr. Valerie Tarico.......what do you think Dr. Val?
XPD
I have no idea how the silly idea got started that non-believers were allowed to post things that expressed their disbelief. Facebook is for praising the Lord and joining groups like "10 ka-zillion-billion Strong for Jesus and Sarah Palin".
Shame on you.
And she's proud of it. This is why we're a planetary laughing stock.
Keep that in mind when dealing with those who believe in magic.
Were you ever tempted to poke her with a stick? I always do that with the oddities I find laying about the beach or the woods.
The second half of this Free Thought Radio show has an interview with Michael Gordon an IRS tax attorney who addresses the abuses of clergy housing tax exemption. It covers some of the history behind the tax relationship with churches. Did Jesus have a multi-million dollar home like some of the televangelists and mega church pastors? I thought we were supposed to wait for that in heaven? Oh wait, that is for those in the pew. Here is the link:
http://cdn2.libsyn.com/ffrf/FTradio_193_010210.mp3?nvb=20100203103043&nva=20100204104043&t=030d8e9bc877216154762
I too have several believers as family and friends, and I have also noticed the way Christianity is injected into these everyday, eye roll inducing "status" updates, and however many of their friends "like" this or that. Just yesterday my own sister had posted some kind of "Message from God" type application which is a sort of "daily bread" tidbit that condescends to know just what God wants you to know today! I left a very sarcastic response to it, but it hasn't seemed to ruffle any feathers...yet. Either they don't know how to respond to it or just simply wish to ignore the flipside of the token like the good Christians they are.
Like the girl who "de-friended" you...ooooohhh, how devastating. Scriptures which include the passage "Have nothing to do with them" probably echoed off all four walls of her holier- than- thou little brain.
They post this mindless shit all over the place. Too many people live in fantasyland.
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