Faith In Hearsay
By WizenedSage
Let me repeat my thesis; your faith is really in those men who wrote those ancient texts. This is a very important point which, I’ll wager, you have never seriously analyzed. As you well know, you learned about god and Jesus from another human who told you about them. God and Jesus did not just appear to you. Someone told you about them, and you may have learned more by reading about them in the Bible and other books. This is what our courts call hearsay evidence, which can be defined as “evidence based not on a witness' personal knowledge but on another's statement.” It’s all about what other people have said or written. There’s nothing out in the world that we can all see together or test with instruments and come to the same conclusions about (this is why there have been so many gods claimed to exist). It is vitally important that you recognize that all anyone today really “knows” about god or Jesus is based on what was written by primitive people that you never met and know almost nothing about.
Neither god nor Jesus has ever shown himself to you directly in an unambiguous way. You may have had feelings, but feelings are just emotions and the only thing emotions can prove is that you’re human. When the Muslim says he has felt the presence of Mohamed, are you convinced? Couldn’t it just be a shot of adrenaline in his brain that caused his skin to tingle and the hairs on his neck to rise? Couldn’t that explain your feelings just as well? Could the Muslim suicide bomber blow himself up if he didn’t have convincing feelings? Yet, you know for certain that the Muslim is wrong about Allah and Mohamed.
You may argue that you have a “relationship” with Jesus. But how does one have a relationship with a being who has never acknowledged your existence? Have you actually seen him? Has he talked to you or left you a phone message? Is that really a relationship? Isn’t that pretty much the same kind of “relationship” I had with Marilyn Monroe when I was a teenage boy?
All you have learned about god and Jesus comes directly or indirectly from the Bible. Now how do you know these Biblical authors were telling the truth? How could you? They wrote about things that supposedly happened thousands of years ago; things that left little or no archaeological evidence, no confirmation by unbiased contemporary historians, and there are no photos, film, or DNA. And don’t just read apologist literature to prove I’m wrong here, read the other side too. You must know that the apologists only see what they want to see and ignore the rest.
And what do you really know about these Bible writers and the quality of their testimony? Can you be sure that they weren’t just drunk or eating mushrooms, or schizophrenic, prone to epileptic visions, delusional, or simply con men seeking power and influence? Do you really know for sure? How could you?
Yes, I’ve heard the story that Jesus’ disciples were willing to die for him, so that proves he was the real thing. This is really a silly argument. Jim Jones’ followers in Guyana were so convinced he was a genuine prophet that they drank the Kool-Aid. Does this make him a prophet? History is full of examples of people willing to die for things that weren’t true.
You are perfectly aware that these authors wrote some incredibly unlikely stories about things that you wouldn’t believe if you read about them in any other book. You would not believe that knowledge of good and evil could reside in a piece of fruit if you read it in any other book. And if you think those stories weren’t meant to be taken literally, then how do you know that for sure? The Bible itself never provides a clue except on those few occasions when Jesus announces he’s going to discuss a parable. And if those other wild Bible stories are just metaphors, then how can you be sure that the Resurrection was not also meant metaphorically – or heaven and hell, for that matter? Was Jesus just a metaphor? And what about god?
Obviously, everybody will draw the fact-fiction lines in different places if the Bible is full of metaphor. How could a god actually teach the facts, the truth that way? Isn’t that why there are so many different Christian sects, because everyone makes his own determination of what’s real and what’s metaphor, and what’s important and what’s not? Why would a god leave so much up for interpretation about stuff that’s vitally important, even life and death important? Wouldn’t that be rather careless for a god? Doesn’t all this suggest pretty strongly that men wrote this stuff all on their own? Wouldn’t a real god have done a much better, much clearer job of it?
If you take the Bible stories literally, then how do you hold down the doubts? Those writers wrote about talking animals and magical fruit trees and food falling from the sky and dragons and unicorns and 900 year-old men. How can you read of such things and not have serious doubts about the accuracy of those authors? Why do we never see any of these amazing things today? Did the world used to be full of magic and now it’s not? If god used these awesome signs to convince people in those ancient times, then why does he expect us to just take these writers at their word for them? If god thought he needed to show those primitive people signs, then wouldn’t it be pretty unfair of him to expect us much better educated, more skeptical people to just believe without any signs?
And surely you know that some of the things they wrote have been proven to be scientifically wrong or impossible. For example, they wrote that the world is flat (Daniel 4:10-11), but we now have pictures that prove it’s a sphere. They wrote that the earth is fixed, didn’t move (1 Chronicles 16:30), but we now know the earth moves very fast as it orbits the sun. The Bible authors wrote that all those tiny points of light called stars would someday fall to the earth, but they’re billions of objects which are all vastly bigger than the earth. They wrote that disease is caused by demons. We have since proven that disease is caused by microorganisms, congenital defects, or toxic chemicals. They wrote, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree (22 Matthew 13:31-32).” We now know many other plant’s seeds, such as orchids, are smaller, and shrubs do not grow into trees. They also wrote about 4-legged fowl (there never were any) and rusting gold and silver (they don’t rust – never have).
These writers were obviously very ignorant about how the world really works. Isn’t it likely that they made stuff up to fill the gaps in their knowledge? In fact, haven’t we just proven that they did so, given their theories of the flat, immovable earth, tiny stars, 4-legged birds, etc.?
Of course, the Bible says you just have to have faith. But, if someone says to you, “Just take my word for it,” aren’t you suspicious? Shouldn’t you be? Doesn’t that suggest pretty strongly that he can’t make a very good case for whatever he’s selling? Don’t you suspect that he might be hiding something? This is the same tactic used to fill the mosques and Hindu places of worship, you know; people are told, “You just have to have faith.” Does it really make sense to you that a god created human intelligence and curiosity, but wants you to just shut it off when it comes to religion?
Everything that has been said or written about god or Jesus in the past 2,000 years and more is based on the writings of these ancient, unknown primitives. EVERYTHING! You see, your faith ultimately depends on these writers, one-hundred percent. Your faith is not really in god and Jesus, your faith is in these anonymous scribes and the hope that they were telling you the facts, the real truth about things. If they were wrong, then so are you. How can you have so much faith in people you never knew, people who may have been utterly whacko or devious, people who have, in fact, been proven to be wrong about so much? That is a faith with a pretty shaky foundation, isn’t it? What did those writers do to deserve such trust from you? Shouldn’t you think about this some more?
Let me repeat my thesis; your faith is really in those men who wrote those ancient texts. This is a very important point which, I’ll wager, you have never seriously analyzed. As you well know, you learned about god and Jesus from another human who told you about them. God and Jesus did not just appear to you. Someone told you about them, and you may have learned more by reading about them in the Bible and other books. This is what our courts call hearsay evidence, which can be defined as “evidence based not on a witness' personal knowledge but on another's statement.” It’s all about what other people have said or written. There’s nothing out in the world that we can all see together or test with instruments and come to the same conclusions about (this is why there have been so many gods claimed to exist). It is vitally important that you recognize that all anyone today really “knows” about god or Jesus is based on what was written by primitive people that you never met and know almost nothing about.
Neither god nor Jesus has ever shown himself to you directly in an unambiguous way. You may have had feelings, but feelings are just emotions and the only thing emotions can prove is that you’re human. When the Muslim says he has felt the presence of Mohamed, are you convinced? Couldn’t it just be a shot of adrenaline in his brain that caused his skin to tingle and the hairs on his neck to rise? Couldn’t that explain your feelings just as well? Could the Muslim suicide bomber blow himself up if he didn’t have convincing feelings? Yet, you know for certain that the Muslim is wrong about Allah and Mohamed.
You may argue that you have a “relationship” with Jesus. But how does one have a relationship with a being who has never acknowledged your existence? Have you actually seen him? Has he talked to you or left you a phone message? Is that really a relationship? Isn’t that pretty much the same kind of “relationship” I had with Marilyn Monroe when I was a teenage boy?
All you have learned about god and Jesus comes directly or indirectly from the Bible. Now how do you know these Biblical authors were telling the truth? How could you? They wrote about things that supposedly happened thousands of years ago; things that left little or no archaeological evidence, no confirmation by unbiased contemporary historians, and there are no photos, film, or DNA. And don’t just read apologist literature to prove I’m wrong here, read the other side too. You must know that the apologists only see what they want to see and ignore the rest.
And what do you really know about these Bible writers and the quality of their testimony? Can you be sure that they weren’t just drunk or eating mushrooms, or schizophrenic, prone to epileptic visions, delusional, or simply con men seeking power and influence? Do you really know for sure? How could you?
Yes, I’ve heard the story that Jesus’ disciples were willing to die for him, so that proves he was the real thing. This is really a silly argument. Jim Jones’ followers in Guyana were so convinced he was a genuine prophet that they drank the Kool-Aid. Does this make him a prophet? History is full of examples of people willing to die for things that weren’t true.
You are perfectly aware that these authors wrote some incredibly unlikely stories about things that you wouldn’t believe if you read about them in any other book. You would not believe that knowledge of good and evil could reside in a piece of fruit if you read it in any other book. And if you think those stories weren’t meant to be taken literally, then how do you know that for sure? The Bible itself never provides a clue except on those few occasions when Jesus announces he’s going to discuss a parable. And if those other wild Bible stories are just metaphors, then how can you be sure that the Resurrection was not also meant metaphorically – or heaven and hell, for that matter? Was Jesus just a metaphor? And what about god?
Obviously, everybody will draw the fact-fiction lines in different places if the Bible is full of metaphor. How could a god actually teach the facts, the truth that way? Isn’t that why there are so many different Christian sects, because everyone makes his own determination of what’s real and what’s metaphor, and what’s important and what’s not? Why would a god leave so much up for interpretation about stuff that’s vitally important, even life and death important? Wouldn’t that be rather careless for a god? Doesn’t all this suggest pretty strongly that men wrote this stuff all on their own? Wouldn’t a real god have done a much better, much clearer job of it?
If you take the Bible stories literally, then how do you hold down the doubts? Those writers wrote about talking animals and magical fruit trees and food falling from the sky and dragons and unicorns and 900 year-old men. How can you read of such things and not have serious doubts about the accuracy of those authors? Why do we never see any of these amazing things today? Did the world used to be full of magic and now it’s not? If god used these awesome signs to convince people in those ancient times, then why does he expect us to just take these writers at their word for them? If god thought he needed to show those primitive people signs, then wouldn’t it be pretty unfair of him to expect us much better educated, more skeptical people to just believe without any signs?
And surely you know that some of the things they wrote have been proven to be scientifically wrong or impossible. For example, they wrote that the world is flat (Daniel 4:10-11), but we now have pictures that prove it’s a sphere. They wrote that the earth is fixed, didn’t move (1 Chronicles 16:30), but we now know the earth moves very fast as it orbits the sun. The Bible authors wrote that all those tiny points of light called stars would someday fall to the earth, but they’re billions of objects which are all vastly bigger than the earth. They wrote that disease is caused by demons. We have since proven that disease is caused by microorganisms, congenital defects, or toxic chemicals. They wrote, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree (22 Matthew 13:31-32).” We now know many other plant’s seeds, such as orchids, are smaller, and shrubs do not grow into trees. They also wrote about 4-legged fowl (there never were any) and rusting gold and silver (they don’t rust – never have).
These writers were obviously very ignorant about how the world really works. Isn’t it likely that they made stuff up to fill the gaps in their knowledge? In fact, haven’t we just proven that they did so, given their theories of the flat, immovable earth, tiny stars, 4-legged birds, etc.?
Of course, the Bible says you just have to have faith. But, if someone says to you, “Just take my word for it,” aren’t you suspicious? Shouldn’t you be? Doesn’t that suggest pretty strongly that he can’t make a very good case for whatever he’s selling? Don’t you suspect that he might be hiding something? This is the same tactic used to fill the mosques and Hindu places of worship, you know; people are told, “You just have to have faith.” Does it really make sense to you that a god created human intelligence and curiosity, but wants you to just shut it off when it comes to religion?
Everything that has been said or written about god or Jesus in the past 2,000 years and more is based on the writings of these ancient, unknown primitives. EVERYTHING! You see, your faith ultimately depends on these writers, one-hundred percent. Your faith is not really in god and Jesus, your faith is in these anonymous scribes and the hope that they were telling you the facts, the real truth about things. If they were wrong, then so are you. How can you have so much faith in people you never knew, people who may have been utterly whacko or devious, people who have, in fact, been proven to be wrong about so much? That is a faith with a pretty shaky foundation, isn’t it? What did those writers do to deserve such trust from you? Shouldn’t you think about this some more?
Comments
Blessing
You mean, hateful and spiteful crap like "Admit that you're a worthless sinner and let Mini-Me Jeebus die in your place, or I'll torture you for eternity", Jeremy?
Troof. Yr doin it rong.
Jeremy, not only does your invisible friend's "Kingdom" only exist in the minds of believers, but your membership therein will automatically expire at the moment of your death. You, too, are fated to become an Ex-Christian.
(Calling XPD. Calling XPD. Where you?)
Do you really want me to make nice with a 'doo-doo head' like this Jeremy Paterson.....uuuhhhh.....person?
Really? You mean you are not tempted to let some expletives fly after that moronic......errr.....I mean un-intelligent diatribe?
Really?
XPD
denunciations of people who had the intelligence and analytical
skills to leave the fantasy land of Xianity. It is the arrogance
and smugness of people like you who drove many from the
church to begin with. Please keep up the good work!
And if you can convince your lazy mind to actually do some
research, start by reading all the testimonies here of people
who, believe it or not, were not only saved and dedicated
Christians, but many were also ministers.
In other words, do something useful with YOUR time. Besides
being a stooge for your local church.
You came in with hateful, and you got hateful right back for your troubles.
Now if you and your brethren ever get the control over others you so desperately lust for, I fully expect you all to start executing doctors, then homosexuals, then blasphemers, and so on, all with the utmost piety. I say this in all seriousness.
Friend, since you are here and appear to still be ensnared by a belief in a "Kingdom of God", can I be of any assistance in your deconversion?
I'm in Australia and recently some local people have been researching our local cemetery. I, and the researchers, were amazed to find that 100 years ago, our local indigenous people(who weren't of any Western faith, but had(and still have) their own spirits(gods?) were actually buried OUTSIDE of the cemetery, actually on the roadside! They weren't allowed INSIDE the cemetery boundaries!
Jews were buried away from Anglicans or Catholics, each in their own area. Incredible! As if we are not all humans together on this planet.
I like your question and am sorry that I can't answer it in more detail.
You came in with hateful, and you got hateful right back for your troubles.
Now if you and your brethren ever get the control over others you so desperately lust for, I fully expect you all to start executing doctors, then homosexuals, then blasphemers, and so on, all with the utmost piety. I say this in all seriousness.
Friend, since you are here and appear to still be ensnared by a belief in a "Kingdom of God", can I be of any assistance in your deconversion?
You mean, hateful and spiteful crap like "Admit that you're a worthless sinner and let Mini-Me Jeebus die in your place, or I'll torture you for eternity", Jeremy?
Troof. Yr doin it rong.
Jeremy, not only does your invisible friend's "Kingdom" only exist in the minds of believers, but your membership therein will automatically expire at the moment of your death. You, too, are fated to become an Ex-Christian.
denunciations of people who had the intelligence and analytical
skills to leave the fantasy land of Xianity. It is the arrogance
and smugness of people like you who drove many from the
church to begin with. Please keep up the good work!
And if you can convince your lazy mind to actually do some
research, start by reading all the testimonies here of people
who, believe it or not, were not only saved and dedicated
Christians, but many were also ministers.
In other words, do something useful with YOUR time. Besides
being a stooge for your local church.
Do you really want me to make nice with a 'doo-doo head' like this Jeremy Paterson.....uuuhhhh.....person?
Really? You mean you are not tempted to let some expletives fly after that moronic......errr.....I mean un-intelligent diatribe?
Really?
XPD
(Calling XPD. Calling XPD. Where you?)
Blessing
No, I truly believe it is within us to do these things for ourselves. We just have to find what works for us. The human mind can be a very powerful thing, with the right tools and knowledge that is.
You just need to pray about your habit. Jesus will set you free!!!
HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA
Sorry, I couln't resist.
XPD
That's very close to meditation, so I'm sure that you are deriving great benefits from that ! : )
P.S. ....sometimes I have a really hard time getting myself to rid myself of "monkey mind", guess it just depends on how crazy a day I'd had. but I believe that the calmer we can get our mind & body, the better it is for our health !
Yes, my son is a Buddhist and does meditate.
I do visual imagery while listening to soothing music while lying down.
Be that as it may, my son has tried to get me to meditate. I cannot relax under such conditions. Hypnosis hasn't even worked on me either- that is, I cannot be hypnotized because I cannot relax while someone else is in the room. I have to be by myself in the room or nothing helps.
Still, such techniques, even while by myself, have not worked to help me quit smoking either. I do not associate the two together. Go ahead and say it if you want. I really don't care.
For me, relaxation is a matter of quieting my mind and trust me, there is a lot going on in there. I could not begin to tell you. lol
A therapist I had in the past stated I am hyper-vigilant due to my childhood experiences. She too tried relaxation techniques while I was in her office. I just could not do it. Another truly believed she could hypnotize me. She FAILED.
Thanks for the tip. Yes, I know what you mean. I had some Talisker that went down a mite too easy over the holidays. I did sleep well that night...
Scotch is an acquired taste. I winced the first time I tried it. Now, life seems much more tolerable knowing there is a dram of good Scotch in the larder.
Cheers!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100206165423AAktdM4
Hope it works. Would like to hear your reaction to the responses you get to your article.
Then " The Good Lard " rewards her for taking care of Chris for over 10 years, and she always remained true to him. She was a good person with a helpful heart, then BAM ! so so undeserved. Reason #1,000,000,000 that I don't believe in a loving & fair "God"......feels good to vent.
I SERIOUSLY do not recommend Chantix, but not everyone has a bad reaction to it.
My Dad--a non-smoker--died of lung cancer, quite possibly from working with a chain smoker in a small space for over 30 years. (The chain smoker died a long, agonizing death from emphysema.)
I have tracheal malacia and a grandbaby who has life-threatening bouts of asthma. I am just glad that Illinois finally got its act together and made smoking illegal in public places. Other people's smoke very much affected my freedom of movement in the community. I can even go out to eat now.
I do hope all you smokers can get free of it. Your children would probably like to have you around for awhile longer. I know I would give just about anything to have had my dad around longer. And I couldn't even tell the chain smoker what I thought about him killing my Dad because his smoking had killed him years before.
It's true that we all have our own self-induced poisons......mine is drinking just too damn much
Coca-Cola...I'm keeping that company in the black I think.
I have tried the 10-year Talisker Scotch. The 12-year is even harder to get and more expensive.
I've always thought that the Religious Fiction Section at Barnes & Noble was redundant labeling.
You have managed to encapsulate the direction of argument that ought to lead any honest, fearless person to the conclusion that god(s) is (are) fictional constructions of the human imagination or that we simply haven't enough evidence to make a definitive factual statement about the "god meme".
Unfortunately, for our species, honesty and fearlessness in matters of religion are rare qualities.
When people, of any culture, believe in so-called "holy scriptures" they are following the ideas and practices of their culture's mental habits. Just as the Jews mutilate their newborn sons' sex organ and the Muslims do the same to their sons and daughters, religious people believe and practice weird shit because they are too afraid to question the rationale, the purpose and the benefit of such actions.
As the late George Carlin said, "We just made it up!".
It make sense that in a time of widespread ignorance, superstition and illiteracy, more of the population could be persuaded to believe tall tales. Fast forward to the U.S. today, the 21st century, where radio waves heat our food, aircraft carry passengers across our continent in mere hours, information comes and leaves our homes at light-speed, and much of the population has an education that exceeds the scholars of old. Belief in biblical tall tales, in this age of scientific and historical knowledge, requires a suspension of reason, willful ignorance, good old fashioned denial, or some combination thereof.
You sound like a connoisseur of stogies. I imagine you know more about them than I do. I have tried a wide variety of cigars, but I am most fond of the Por Larrañaga brand. Por Larrañaga is known for having a distinctly sweet taste.
http://www.cigarone.com/cuban-cigars/cigars-brand.php?idbrand=44
Single Malt Scotch whisky is my adult drink of choice. Talisker is my favorite. I have only tried the 12-year. It can be fairly hard to find, and it ain't cheap. I don't buy it often. It is hearty with a strong presence of peat. It is not for everyone... but I enjoy it. It'll put hair on your chest.
Stogies and Scotch are hard to beat. A good cigar is a smoke...
When that prediction didn't pan out, the author had the audacity to write a sequel -- The Final Shout: Rapture Report 1989 (which covered predictions thru 1993).
*rolling eyes*
I don't recall exactly what it was in the photo. My all time favorite is Hoyo de Monterey Churchills - heco en Habano 1992. They rated a 98 in Cigar Aficionado that year. Pure Cuban, boot-legged across the Canadian border by a good friend of mine. Of course they are long gone....sigh.....
I prefer Partagas #10 (Dominican & legal) when smoking a high quality stogie, but I've been known to enjoy a good ol' Garcia y Vega (Tubo) when I'm broke! (:P
If I'm not mistaken, I think webmdave is a stogie man.
XPD (P.S. what is your favorite adult beverage to go along with your P. L.?)
Truth is, I did consider the feelings of the workers before I began my prank several years ago. I figured the fundies deserved a little Old Testament Eye-For-An-Eye treatment. I also thought (or justified in my own mind) that the rare non-fundy who might have to clean up after me would probably get a chuckle. I know I would if I were in their shoes. But then, I've been accused more than once of having a wicked, devilish sense of humor.
Yes, indeed! I will also use Historical Fiction as another destination. Thanks for the idea.
I officially rescind my objections to your shenanigans. Carry on! (as if you needed my permission to do that. *grin*)
(May I also recommend the use of Historical Fiction as a destination?)
I like your idea also.
Two points if I may:
1. I have heard from the pulpit multiple times, “We can know by faith”. WHAT!!!? AM I MISSING SOMETHING? Aren't knowing and faith mutually exclusive concepts!!!? I know I’m not Mensa material but come on!!! The unilateral intellectual aggression that is xtianity nauseates me!!! Try some self-reflection and introspection and get back to me xtianity!!!
2. Re the seeds/fowl thing. ““The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree (22 Matthew 13:31-32).” We now know many other plant’s seeds, such as orchids, are smaller, and shrubs do not grow into trees. They also wrote about 4-legged fowl (there never were any)”
Will the religious mind use evolution on the doubter to explain the change from ancient times to current times? If so, how does one counter such a response from the religious mind without also arguing the religious mind must now accept all evolution means/implies because it is highly doubtful the religious mind will accept all of evolution (if that all makes sense…sorry in a hurry before my internet connectivity goes away)? Thanks.
Isn't it interesting how Christian Fiction has really taken off? And how gullible Christians are about it? Thirty years ago the rage was "prophecy," fiction dressed up in a religious skirt. When all those prophecies did not come true (we still live on the not-so-late-or-great planet earth) those prophets "came out" as fiction writers. Duh.
It is interesting I can recall several verses that actually apply:
"believing themselves to be wise they became fools...."
"Once I was a child talked like one but now I am not a child and I don't act like one (paraphrase)...."
"...know the truth and it will set you free...."
Even lines from the Great Fiction can reach up and bite people in the arse if they're not careful.
I have never posted here before so I hope I am doing it correctly.
With permission from WizenedSage, I posted his/her recent "Faith in Hearsay" article on Yahoo Religion & Spirituality in order to get responses from the xtian community.
I believe the link below should take you there. Interestingly, although not unexpectedly, the 1st response begins with "I didn't bother reading the whole thing because, from the outset, your thesis is wrong." Why am I not surprised?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgyhfV3VK9XdKKlwGS_LmwEazKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20100206103040AAmTP8G
I recommend the 10 year old Balvenie. Really tasty, but goes down just a mite too easy, if you know what I mean.
My wife bought me a bottle of 30 year old as couple of years ago, WONDERFUL.
The Jura is worth a try, as well.
It is MY pleasure. This site is a life line/saver for me.
I would be honored!!! I will begin to attempt posting it on Yahoo Religion & Spirituality now and post the link here.
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