NO TRUE CHRISTIANS!
There is no doubt in my mind that there is not one true Christian on the planet, and I can prove it. There are several signs of a true believer that are very plain in the Bible. Unlike many of the passages of the Bible, these particular verses are very plain and nearly impossible to misinterpret or take out of context.
Let's consider these statements supposedly written by the Apostle John, otherwise known as the disciple whom Jesus loved, as he quoted his master and his God:
1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2) John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
3) John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
This seems pretty plain to me. If you love the Lord, you keep his commandments. Simple!
John the Apostle emphasized this particular aspect of authentic Christianity here:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I cannot imagine a single Christian anywhere in the world denying the plain words of these particular statements which are echoed elsewhere throughout scripture. So what is my point?
This is my point:
I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
I do not expect to receive even one donation, even though $10.00 in US currency is almost nothing. Even though my motives can easily be interpreted as selfish, or blasphemous, or even evil, the plain teaching of these passages is that Christians should not resist evil, and should go ahead and give to anyone who asks, not regarding the motives of whoever is asking. God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian.
It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM.
As I said, I don't expect a single dime from this scriptural request, for the simple reason that I do not believe anyone really believes the Bible, and there are no real Christians. Christianity, like every other religion, is only popular to the point where it gives something to the adherents. When it asks something that seems unreasonable, like giving an obvious apostate exchristian website some money, well, then common survival sense kicks in and the cash stays in the wallet regardless of clear instructions.
The Lord commands Christians to give to everyone who asks, even evil people. Of this there is no doubt, but I will receive nothing for my honest and open request - why?
June 27, 2002
It seems I have to make a slight correction here! There is ONE true Christian out there. I received one contribution in the mail today of $10.00. Of course the fact that she is my natural sister should have nothing to do with disallowing the contribution, as she is a Christian.
SO, I stand corrected, there is ONE real Christian.
Sept 2002 finds another generous soul out in cyberspace
I was challenged by a visitor to the site who "dared me" saying he would donate to my site the $10.00 I was asking for if I would dontate to a mutually agreed upon charity. The deal he suggested was that I would donate a sum of money and he would match that sum and add the ten dollars. I suggested MDA as a place to put our money where our mouths, or typing fingers, were and he agreed. I received his check in the mail, forwarded it on to MDA with my own donation of one hundred dollars and had a thank you note sent to him with a receipt of his donation.
I am not sure what point he was trying to make with this wager, or if any point at all was being made, but MDA benefited from the exercise to the tune of two hundred dollars, so something good did come of all the rhetoric this time.
In fact, it was kind of fun!
Perhaps we will do it again!
Let's consider these statements supposedly written by the Apostle John, otherwise known as the disciple whom Jesus loved, as he quoted his master and his God:
1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2) John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
3) John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
This seems pretty plain to me. If you love the Lord, you keep his commandments. Simple!
John the Apostle emphasized this particular aspect of authentic Christianity here:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I cannot imagine a single Christian anywhere in the world denying the plain words of these particular statements which are echoed elsewhere throughout scripture. So what is my point?
This is my point:
I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
I do not expect to receive even one donation, even though $10.00 in US currency is almost nothing. Even though my motives can easily be interpreted as selfish, or blasphemous, or even evil, the plain teaching of these passages is that Christians should not resist evil, and should go ahead and give to anyone who asks, not regarding the motives of whoever is asking. God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian.
It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM.
As I said, I don't expect a single dime from this scriptural request, for the simple reason that I do not believe anyone really believes the Bible, and there are no real Christians. Christianity, like every other religion, is only popular to the point where it gives something to the adherents. When it asks something that seems unreasonable, like giving an obvious apostate exchristian website some money, well, then common survival sense kicks in and the cash stays in the wallet regardless of clear instructions.
The Lord commands Christians to give to everyone who asks, even evil people. Of this there is no doubt, but I will receive nothing for my honest and open request - why?
June 27, 2002
It seems I have to make a slight correction here! There is ONE true Christian out there. I received one contribution in the mail today of $10.00. Of course the fact that she is my natural sister should have nothing to do with disallowing the contribution, as she is a Christian.
SO, I stand corrected, there is ONE real Christian.
Sept 2002 finds another generous soul out in cyberspace
I was challenged by a visitor to the site who "dared me" saying he would donate to my site the $10.00 I was asking for if I would dontate to a mutually agreed upon charity. The deal he suggested was that I would donate a sum of money and he would match that sum and add the ten dollars. I suggested MDA as a place to put our money where our mouths, or typing fingers, were and he agreed. I received his check in the mail, forwarded it on to MDA with my own donation of one hundred dollars and had a thank you note sent to him with a receipt of his donation.
I am not sure what point he was trying to make with this wager, or if any point at all was being made, but MDA benefited from the exercise to the tune of two hundred dollars, so something good did come of all the rhetoric this time.
In fact, it was kind of fun!
Perhaps we will do it again!
Comments
However, since you chose anonymous, I'll address you as anonynony.
Anonynony - please quote the Bible verse that says you should never spend your money on vile things.
That's number one.
Now explain what you are calling vile. Is it me? Is it this website? Is it anything or anyone who doesn't believe in your god?
That's number two.
Finally, please quote the Bible verse that supports not obeying your GOD when you don't like it.
That's about it.
Waiting to read your answer anonynony...
For Starters I would like to make it clear that I will not be donating anything to your cause and yes that still means I am a true Christian. I guess that by not making a donation of $10 upon request my actions make me a sinner and by your definition no sinners can truly be Christians but as a true Christian I can tell you this misguided ideal is not factual. As I’m sure your aware, or should be, Romans 3:23 points out that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” that means that there is no hope of me ever getting into heaven by trying obeying all the rules and as we know by your philosophies it is only “true” Christians that can get into heaven. I am very thankful that the blood of Christ was shed for the remission of my sins (matt 26:28) and that it is only by the blood of Christ that any one person can truly be called a “Christian”. I’ve posted Romans 3:24 - 27 at the bottom of this note, please read it. It states that it is only through Christs grace that people on earth can be redeemed. Though contrary to your beliefs it is only redemption that truly makes any one person a Christian, it is grace not actions! The disciple John wrote “But to as many as receive Him (Jesus), to them he gave the power to become children of God (Christians), even to those who believe on His name: (Jesus)” (John 1:12). Thank God I only have to confess with my mouth and believe with my heart that Christ died and rose again to be called a Christian because I would hate to have to go tell for not supporting this web site.
Romans 3:24 - 27 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
P.S. Personally if I were anonymous I would be referring to you and your website as vile. I hope this has cleared up a few things for you, its pretty basic!
Now, if you tell me I must repent and believe the gospel, then you are telling me that there is some action I must preform to receive that grace, which means it's not really grace, but a quid-pro-quo arrangement.
Regardless of all that - your flying undead GODMAN has ordered you to give to all who ask, and you are disobeying - willfully! And, you are just a bit rude too. Perhaps you are right - perhaps you are a true Christian.
I can’t believe anyone who has known Jesus Christ at one point in their life could give up their relationship for any impotent argument. Your missing the point! and your not even defending your position with any valid arguments, I saw more a challenge from my first year philosophy classes in college.
Your right when you ask, albeit facetiously, if you have nothing to worry about while you suffer through the “vileness” of your actions on this web site. But your actions are no worse than mine I guess and I’m glad for the both of us that this unmerited grace does cover a multitude of sins. It just takes one action and believe you already know what that action is.
Joel, lets go to the advanced philosophy course... What is it to "Know" Jesus... That requires you to define epistemological foundations for knowledge... looking forward to your response... if you find it hard to formulate a coherent response, then you have beliefs without knowing the fundamental requirements for validating information... While you're at it, I'd like to know what you your version for an ontological argument...
Jesus said (at least it is attributed to Jesus anyway) that those who loved him would keep his commandments. He also commanded his followers to give to EVERYONE who asked.
I am asking and you are refusing to obey. It's really quite simple, there isn't much philosophy to be bandied about it.
Finally, if I have to do ANY action to receive "grace," then it is no longer grace - it is payment for an action performed. If I do this, then god will do that. An exchange of sorts - a contract - a deal.
Grace is unmerited. If I perform an act, even a small act, to receive the grace, then in a small way, the grace was earned.
Now, may I please have ten dollars?
To Dave8, I will give your efforts to quiet my faith in Jesus Christ an A for you effort, however I would wager a bet that when you were pressed with this position from your professor in college there were no Christians around to defend their position, and it is because of this fact that I believe you’ve missed the basic precepts that have become the philosophic basis for Christianity, if that is what you want to call it. It took me a while but I managed to dig up an old article that I once read on this subject, to date this has been one of the best answers I’ve heard to question you’ve posed. I have posted a link to this article at the bottom, read it if you whish.
I would like to start by saying that there is as much epistemological evidence in the world today to support a belief in Christ as there is to dismiss this belief, but I am thankful that the scripture clears up this problem up for those troubled few who are in your position. James A. Fowler, the author of the article I’ve cited, does quit an excellent job of citing scripture so I will refrain from using any reference. It is a simple fact that the design of Christianity is not to have an epistemologically sound knowledge of every mystery but is however to come to the realization of the love of God which passes mortal understanding. Not in the epistemological sense of the word “know” as you desire but in the ontological meaning of the word know as it refers to a relational or experiential reasoning for the basis of knowledge. fowler writes in his article that “ Epistemological understanding is inadequate to comprehend the divine reality that is the essence of Christianity. The objective of the Christian message is not to encourage people to receive and accumulate and assent to information, but rather to receive the very Being of God into themselves (John 1:12) and allow Jesus Christ to be their life (Col. 3:4). . . The knowledge being considered is not just the knowledge of impersonal factual data and information, but the personal knowing of personal beings in personal relationship”.
If you would like a more in depth reasoning please see http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotepis.html, if you just want empirical evidence please check out a few of these titles.
The Twilight Labyrinth - Georg Otis Jr. (great use of quantum mechanics to explain the spiritual realm)
A Case for Christ - Lee Strobal
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
More Than a Carpenter - Josh McDowell
When you get done with these I’ve got more so please don’t hesitate to ask.
Thanks for all your time, but Dave8 I had a little trouble with the reasoning on your second question, if you could clear what it was you were trying to ask I will do my best to answer. And for the record I didn’t find it that hard to formulate this coherent response, thanks though.
Joel may the bright and morning star be your guide.You seem to have the same personality type.As per your -If I were you I would do my best to track down this Dave8 fellow because he is the only one I’ve met on this web site that has asked a fair question that is deserving of a fair answer.These questions require a fair answer
Joel Is infinte punishment a fair reward for finite sin.?
Do you have more compassion than god.?Would you torment someone Forever and ever.?
Matt. 10:28. "Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ is telling us that the body will be in hell, not just the soul. How do you explain this, if the body turns to dust after death?
Matt. 19:12. "There be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake." Why would Christ honor such a deed? A eunuch, of course, is a man who has been castrated. He tells us that some men have castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Why?
Matt. 19:17. "Why callest thou me good...?" Christ tells us that he himself is not "good." Only God is. (Meanwhile, God and Jesus are one and the same, according to the church.)
Matt. 23:13. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: For ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." How could the scribes and Pharisees, according to Christ himself, "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men?" He then goes on to describe heaven in the present tense, saying "...For ye neither go in yourselves..." Why?
It appears to me, from reading these passages and others, that there was some way to "heaven" or "hell" that was understood in those days and honored by Christ himself. It was not "Jesus saves." That doctrine (salvation by grace), again, is born in the NT times, after Christs departure.
I left christianity after reading the bible, because it appeared to me that the doctrine of salvation by grace is not what Christ taught at all. That doctrine appears, again, after Christ. For that reason, among many others, I left.
What do you make of the teachings of Christ? Notice how he describes the "Kingdom of heaven." Throughout the gospels, he does so in parables and mysteries. His descriptions defy the common understanding that heaven is a perfect place where anyone who has "accepted Jesus" will reside forever in perfect joy and harmony with others. Why?
It's getting late. Goodnight, all. I'll be back.
Now, about your arrogance.
Oh nevermind, I've wasted enough time playing with you.
Joel, my efforts aren't to decrease your "faith" in your belief... "faith" is allegiance or loyalty to a cause, person or idealogy... Besides the words of a secondary, person, there is no logical or empirical test for "faith"... However, I can empirically and logically show, "how" you received your "faith", and what your foundations reside upon... For instance, you learned of a "god" from another person, and have accepted the words of "another" person verbally, and even the words of those who lived thousands of years ago...
Now, what makes your confidence in the person who told you about "god" greater than someones' who tells you there isn't a god... What makes you believe the words in "one" cannonized book, when there were many more writings of the early christian era that provide a different account for the nature of Jesus, i.e., as a mortal (Rabbinical Jews), a projective image only (Gnostics), an adoptive son (Ebionites), or those who just didn't accept him as a real person at all...
The easy answer is, the person who told you about "god", is someone you trust, and you also trust those of the First Council of Nicaea who voted on the Nature of Jesus over three hundred years after the life of a Jesus, and later the NT was formed as it stands today... Even with no evidence, you still "trust" what someone else told you regarding "god"...
Regarding religion, that's an entirely different matter, if you "chose" to believe in that which can't be proven through logic or reason, or were "taught" to believe in a certain manner, then you believe according to "one" person and their perspective...
"True" religions teach that there is only "one" perspective to be had, and that is the one based on "creed" and "doctrine", its the "truth" of the credo or doctrine that "define" the religion itself...
For those who pick and choose what to accept, and what to throw out of religious doctrine, etc., I don't see as religious, I see them as seeking truth, there's a big difference... The professors that provided my tuteladge in college, were not in the least concerned with "faith", that was a personal choice, they taught on the historicity of the bible, and knew full well the logical failings, and inconsistencies, yet still, they had "faith"...
They "desired" to believe in that which could not be logically or reasonably founded, and to them, that was enough... in short, it was a tradition of "hope" for them... The difference between the professors and educated (few as there were) religionists and the local community, was, that they knew full well the reasons why Other people didn't believe in the biblical versions of "god", and all of the other oral tradition thrown in over the years, i.e., trinity, original sin, etc., as these don't appear in the bible...
In short, they knew their "faith" was totally based on hope, and therefore, this excluded them most times from being "intolerant" of other views... Intolerance is supported by the fact that some person believes they have the "True" answer, a Universal Absolute Truth that others don't have..., or intolerance is nothing but a "defense" mechanism, where one persons' desire to have their "beliefs" justified, shows through their attempt to "reduce" other options, i.e., religious, logical, empirical, etc...
As an example; a distraught child who was protected and cared for by a parent(s) who suffered through misery in their life, may "feel" guilty, i.e., survivors guilt, etc... and therefore, to balance themselves psychologically, "hope" that their parent(s), etc., will be "justly" rewarded for their deeds, and be at "peace"... there are many reasons, why people choose to maintain "hope", in something greater for others... "justice" and a sense of "fairness" is one of the reasons...
Personally, I don' find a problem with the greater part of people "hoping" for the best..., however, when "hoping" detaches people from this natural reality, where logic and reason are neglected, it not only hurts them, many times, it hurts humanity, as the lact of logic and reason suport "intolerance"... There are many side affects to, assuming a belief not founded in logic and reason, self-abuse being one of the many... perhaps, the message of "hope" has been twisted and used like a tool, by many religious leaders of the past few thousand years, using a persons' pain, sorrow, etc., as a means to move the "flock" in the desired direction of the religious leader(s), and supporting their validity by attributing all that is good, and the good things in life, to the "origin" of their "hope"... god...
I no longer attribute, good things in my life to an external concept of "hope", I have learned I can do better than to "create" hope, I can actually "make" people comfortable in this life, by myself, and without the need to rely on some external origin of "hope"...
Joel Dave: "It took me a while but I managed to dig up an old article that I once read on this subject, to date this has been one of the best answers I’ve heard to question you’ve posed. I have posted a link to this article at the bottom, read it if you whish."
Joel, per the article you provided:
"Epistemology" is a philosophical term etymologically derived from three Greek words: (1) epi meaning "upon" or "on." (2) histemi meaning "to stand." (3) logos meaning "word," and indicating "logical consideration of or study of." The Greek word epistamai referred to the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding, as well as the significance of such information. Epistemology refers to the considerations of what we stand upon for our understanding. How do we know what we know? Why do we believe what we believe? Where do we take our stand concerning the opinions which we claim to believe and to know? These are the considerations of epistemology."
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotepis.html
The article hits ontology and the presence of being, as the foci for having a "true" christian belief, and states that epistemology in many cases causes christians to adhere to an epistemological heresy, seeking god through foundations logical or empirical...
I would agree in that respect, however, there then becomes the onus for this article to provide "information" (based on epistemological foundations), to support an ontological view of "being" and "nature/essence" of being, christianized as "soul"... In short, if epistemology is ignored as the foundation of faith (of which I can agree), but it then used to "support" ontological argument, then we must look at the epistemological support for the ontological argument... and what was provided on this web site, was "biblical verses" as the support...
Therefore, the foundation for truth, even for the ongological argument for religion, is based on what "other" people have said, a second hand revelation... The strongest "information" according to my philosophy, is "first hand" information, based on experience and logic...
Joel Dave: "I would like to start by saying that there is as much epistemological evidence in the world today to support a belief in Christ as there is to dismiss this belief, but I am thankful that the scripture clears up this problem up for those troubled few who are in your position."
The epistomological foundations for assigning the limits of "knowledge" and what is truly sound and what is purely hope, or speculation determines if that statement has merit... If a person believes that "experience" and empirical evidence are the strongest of "evidence" for knowledge, then there isn't as "much" epistomological evidence for, as well as against Christ... its quite apparent that a person with "experience" as the strongest validation for information, requires the "Sense" experience of a Christ in order to validate the claim of a Christ, and... that isn't happening, unless Christ pops up on my desk right now... waiting... "nope", stil not here... therefore, there is "far more" evidence, according to my "epistemoloigcal" limits and levels of strength I assign "information", against Christ... I have zero days in my life "experienceing" with my "senses", Christ, therefore, every day my confidence grows stronger on the non-existence of Christ...
Joel Dave: "James A. Fowler, the author of the article I’ve cited, does quit an excellent job of citing scripture so I will refrain from using any reference."
This author cites scripture, because this author like many have their epistemological limits loose enough to assign enough strength in second hand information, as to accept the information as "gospel"... I don't agree with the epistemological limit, of second hand information, as it would "over-ride" my first hand experiences and knowledge... This author has obviously discounted their "own" first hand experience, in order to accept a "second hand" revelation from someone else based on "faith", in that person, they have never met, known, seen, observed, senses, etc... So many books, all boiling down to the exact same philosophical premises...
Joel Dave: "It is a simple fact that the design of Christianity is not to have an epistemologically sound knowledge of every mystery but is however to come to the realization of the love of God which passes mortal understanding."
Then "why" would one place "faith" in the person that told them of god, when they were a child, or when they read about god somewhere... Historically, the design of Christianity grew over time according to rumors, etc... eventually being accepted and legalized by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in order to bring order into the empire, as there were "many" differing views of Jesus' nature, and if he had even lived... The statement you made, was, we can't ever really "know" god, but we must "know" of the love of god... That is an illogical statement, if one can't "know" god, then of course, the "attributes" of god can not be known either, to include, gods' intent, love, looks, etc., etc...
Joel Dave: "Not in the epistemological sense of the word “know” as you desire but in the ontological meaning of the word know as it refers to a relational or experiential reasoning for the basis of knowledge."
If "god" can't be known, then there can't be "relational" or "experiential" knowledge... As a matter of fact, Christianity in general believes "god" is transcendent beyond the bounds of this universe, in a metaphysically objective reality, where pure/true metaphysical objects reside, for example; heaven, hell, god, devil, etc... By definition, if god is transcendent, god does not reside in this natural universe, and therefore, can't be experienced, with reason, or relationally... Thus, the whole point of the early Roman Church fathers, saying that the writings in the bible were directly pulled from individuals who were "visited" by a divine spirit or divinely "guided", by gods' hand... still, it makes no sense by definition, notwithstanding, the huge gap, where the writings are supposed to have covered over a 2,000 year period, that'a a bunch of hand holding from a god, who wanted to get a message to people on earth...
Joel Dave: "...fowler writes in his article that “ Epistemological understanding is inadequate to comprehend the divine reality that is the essence of Christianity."
Right, divine reality presiding in a "metaphsyically objective" reality, separate and transcending the Natural Universe...
Joel Dave: "The objective of the Christian message is not to encourage people to receive and accumulate and assent to information, but rather to receive the very Being of God into themselves (John 1:12) and allow Jesus Christ to be their life (Col. 3:4). . ."
In short, you can never know "god" based on experience, and logical reasoning, hwoever, one can still "know" what a "being of god" is, and further, ask that "being" to enter into their life... If one doesn't have "knowleddge" of something, how does one ask for it, moreover, how does one "know" when they receive it, as there is no "epistemological" or empirical foundations required... Satan might just as well have entered someones' body, if they believe in a transcendent metaphysical objective reality wher all metpahysical objects reside...
Joel Dave: "The knowledge being considered is not just the knowledge of impersonal factual data and information, but the personal knowing of personal beings in personal relationship”.
Right, someone must be compelled to have a "need" for a personal relationship, and it doesn't matter if the "being" can be proven to "exist" or not... if the need is great enough, then one may be compelled to forego natural epistemological limits, and accept the "unknowable" as truth... some call this using creative thinking... This in and of itself isnt' terrible when one person has a personal belief, however, if one doesn't "know" god, then they shouldn't be condemning anyone else for their beliefs, especially if "their" beliefs are based on "first hand" experience... I haven't experienced the god described by christianity, and as far as the historical record, and even the author you provided, religions are looking to support evidence... to them, its more about the "message", based on "hope", once a person "desires" to believe...
Perhaps, one should ask, why some people "desire" to believe in a christian definition of god, and others don't... I don't have a need for a god in my life, I was given a brain, and ability to think, I don't admire those who choose to live their lives as innocent of worldly knowledge as a child... for they are the ones expoited by the religious leaders... In closing, if one really wants to "believe", why does it require "religious" affiliation... perhaps there's a social benefit, when one claims to be part of a group...
Please explan.As per your _I was given a brian and etc ?Who gave you the brain.?And where did they get it from.?
Brain "given" by Nature, and Nature is not a "They"... if implied, how long has Nature existed... I say, at a minimum, and with great confidence, Nature existed "before" I became conscious.... it continues to exist as I live... and it has existed long after people have left the earth throughout history, therefore, I can presume with some confidence that Nature will continue to exist, even after I pass...
I believe Nature has always existed, as there is no evidence to show otherwise... therefore, what I have, can only have come from Nature, and not Natures'parents... take care...
Premise:
"We don't exist"
There, now that seems to be concise... well, nihilism has its merits, even if to show, that some variables just can't be discounted for convenience sake... ;-)
Good news Dave8 I have just found out that Australian english differs from american english.So my research has led me to believe that I am now only 3/4 as stupid as I had seemed to be before.
Never before have so many done so little for so much.
I personally cringe at the label "Christian" as most Churches and Christians I have encountered do not try to live by the standard of love that Christ demonstrated and taught about. I struggle with what my spirit says about a loving, forgiving God and what is being taught and demonstrated by the Orthodox Christian community.
My long winded point is, yes I try to follow the message and example of Christ so I believe that makes me a "true" Christian and I wanted to encourage you to allow your intellect to rest and be open to the love of God that I know you feel in your soul and spirit. Please don't let difficulties of the mind stray you from what really is a loving, but misunderstood message of Christ.
I have struggled myself and was even an atheist for a few years before the love of God brought me back. If you are willing, I would love to communicate with you about your thoughts as I feel it would only be beneficial for both of us. I hope you don't think this email is preachy, I pray it's not, but I just wanted to reach out to a struggling brother as I am one, too.
27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
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Letter of Barnabas 19:8-9
(8) "Share all things with your neighbor and do not say that anything is your own. For if you are partners in what is imperishable, how much more in what is perishable? Do not be garrulous, for the mouth is a deadly trap. In so far as you are able, be pure within. (9) Do not be one who reaches out your hands to receive but draws them back from giving. Love like the apple of your eye everyone who speaks the word of the Lord to you."
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I gave $10 because you asked....and as you have received....I have given you $10 more.
May peace and love find you in all hope of salvation in the blessed name of Jesus the Christ.
neoapostle.com
The doctrine of salvation by grace is a fraud.
The doctrine of salvation by grace is a fraud.
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (The Coptic Gospel of Thomas)
My brother, I'm glad to see you enlightened by teachings that for the most part do reflect peace and love. My God Jehovah is grace and love and His Son is the living example of that grace and love. Grace is “undeserved kindness”, and by example Christ has shown us that living a life of grace and love comes by choice. I wouldn't classify grace as a fraud, but rather a choice. Those who claim to live a life of grace and then do not strive for it would be the example of the fraud. When someone wrongs us in some way we are faced with only one choice. Naturally we all desire vengeance, but it takes a mind that is truly enlightened with the accurate knowledge of the truth to choose the path of love and grace. Salvation by Grace is not a doctrine it is the essence of hope. Ironically, if your belief is that salvation by grace is a fraud then by your own standards Buddhism would be classified as a fraud as well. From what I understand about Buddhism it is filled with teachings of anti-hatred and love as well as undeserved kindness (grace). I admit I'm not an expert in Buddhism, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, don't get me wrong I'm not judging or even condemning your beliefs, nor do I think it is your intention to contradict Buddhist teachings(as I understand them) so that wasn't designed as an attack. It is simply an observation of your comment and more or less a request of clarification.
The bottom line is, choosing "grace and love" is a choice that must be made by each of us every moment of every day. Choosing to show another human "undeserved kindness" in the face of "injustice" is the path to eternal life. Jesus is the path this is why he was called "the way" because he showed this to us through example. Buddhism seems to have elements of this path. You call it a "karmic wheel of death and rebirth." If rebirth means to be reborn in the spirit of "peace and love" I totally agree. If "death" is the result of living our natural desire toward hatred and vengeance this too I'm in total agreement. The only difference I suppose would be I put my hope in God Jehovah to give me accountability so that I may be perfected in love and grace. In my opinion without accountability peace and love cannot be achieved.
I believe Christ revealed this, but in addition all of God’s creation reveals it as well. It is testimony to the love of God when someone shows even the slightest bit of “undeserved kindness” no matter what label they prefer to use. The truth is I do not want to live in “poverty” and my hope rest in God Jehovah that “darkness” will be lifted and the more will come to understand themselves and to know God. Can you imagine a world that would live by the standards of love and grace? It would be nirvana or heaven or whatever you want to call it. It simply would be a world that would be glorious and it is attainable because it starts with you and me making the choice of love and grace rather than hate and vengeance.
Once again I pray that peace and love finds all of you in all hope of salvation in the blessed name of Jesus the Christ.
The christian doctrine of "salvation by grace" is this:
Humanity is in a "fallen" state, being the descendants of the first man and the first woman, who committed "original sin." "Sin" is any action or word that displeases God. Because Adam and Eve committed sin, they were cursed by God and ejected from the garden of eden and into the wilderness around them with the garden of eden being closed and guarded. They went on to produce the human race and we, being desendants of Adam and Eve, are born "sinners," cursed by God. We then go through our entire lives committing "sin." Because we are "sinners," God hates us and will cast us into eternal burning fiery torment (worse than anything on earth) when we die (or come "judgement day" as some denominations of christianity teach.) At some point, God devises a plan of "salvation" from said torment, and sends "His only begotten Son," Jesus Christ, to earth to die the most excruciating death known to humankind in those times, so that, if anyone will "accept" Jesus, he or she will then be taken to "heaven," an eternal paradise, when they die instead. To "accept Jesus" is to accept Christ as ones "Lord and savior." One is "saved" for having done this. Whether or not one "repents of sin," or walks with Jesus," or "obeys the commandments," is irrelevant. One is "saved" from eternal torment for having performed the ritual of "accepting Jesus." This is what is known as the "doctrine of salvation by grace." "Accept Jesus, and you're 'saved.'" It is exclusive to christianity. It is also the only way into heaven, according to the christian church, and there is no other way. Buddha would have to be considered to be a "false teacher" to a "true christian."
The whole thing is absurd.
As a true Christian I found this site very interesting, as I'm attempting to teach my children about God and His truth. I don't want to brainwash them, and I definitely don't want to give them religion. I've told them that they need to work it out for themselves and find out the truth, and not just to believe something because I've said it.
I think many of you ex-Christians are probably plain sick to death of hypocrisy and double standards in the church.How about your relationship with your parents? Did you feel a lack of sincere love?
I guess I'm trying to figure out why you believe what you do. Disappointment, anger, dissatisfaction? My initial response would be that you are probably fed up wih the church (which is a poor advert for God) and had enough of Christians (sadly also a poor advert for God, me included), and definitely religion.
Religion is constraining, life with Jesus is freeing.
Religion is unsatisfying and flawed, Jesus is flawless and fulfilling.
Religion offers liitle hope for the future, Jesus offers hope and peace in all the confusion.
Sorry, am I preaching here?
Please give Jesus a second chance - not religion. He loves you, and remains faithful even if you are unfaithful. Nothing compares to God's love. I don't want to live without it. Yes, I'm a weak mortal. Theres's so much rubbish in this life, that the truth of God's love and his amazing interest in little me is beyond anything else.
And by the way, yes God could stop all the nonsense in the world, but that would be the end of free will, as he'd have to force each individual to do nothing wrong or bad.
Anyway, give me donate link or paypal link and I'll happily send $10 if it will in any way help you know that God's still there and that he loves you. I love to think outside the box and will hopefully never settle for second best in my faith by getting comfortable with the church and all the Christian blurb and nonsense out there (much of Christian TV seems atrocious, for instance, as well as all the Christian bling. God must be appalled at all that goes on in His name.
Anyway, enough of my rant,
I love you guys, I'm sorry religion messed you up. God won't mess you up - just people.
See ya,
Annie
Annie you're a brainless religious snothead. just go away.
The worst thing is, that even after leaving Christianity, the little buggers follow you. This is evident from personal experience and this website. These answers to "No True Christians" are a good example. Not only will they disobey their bible verses but they will try to convert the heathen back to the safety of the 'saved'. Joel Dave's comments are a perfect example of this. It's best not to encourage their blather.
The best Christian is a mute Christian.
Oh, and I liked Annie's little rant about how those that de-converted were somehow abused etc. and this is why they left the church. Not because we actually have minds or anything. Another typical fundie comment.
Give to anyone who asks, he says, and I'm asking for ten dollars - that's all.
Waiting...
WM, I think Danny boy wants to have a reason to look some up for you..hehehe
God have mercy on you (and those t.v. evangelists!) Context, context CONTEXT friend. I know what you have quoted and I believe it and seek to obey it but you must always back up scripture with scripture to get the CONTEXT.
The Bible says "servants, obey your masters." However, if my boss told me to shoot someone, would I do it? No, I would be violating another command, namely murder.
If someone told me that they were going to shoot themselves but had no money for the bullets and then asked me for the money to buy them, would I give it to them? No, for then I would be participating in this persons attempt at suicide/murder.
Likewise you ask for money to consume it upon your lusts. God HATES what you are doing (yes, HATES) so why should I help you in something my Lord and Saviour hates? Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate...an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief..."
So you see, why should any believer contribute to your sin if God HATES it? I would not buy an alcoholic more alcohol, but I would buy him food and clothing and help him whatever honest ways I can. I would help a thief, but I would not help him in his deeds of stealing. And I could go on.
I WAS an athiest, but praise God I've found true satisfaction in the Lord Jesus Christ. May you come to know him too.
http://www.biblicalwitness.co.uk
You have a problem enabling people engage in acts contrary to your values? Really, lets see.
Would you have the same problem, giving an instruction manual to someone that presented a case for killing witches, murdering those who didn't believe exactly as the instruction guide demanded, unnecessarily torturing people, shedding the blood of innocent babies until you were ankle deep in blood, etc, etc? If you would have a problem, then you wouldn't let someone get a hold of the bible.
Its easy, if you believe in the bible, give $10, and you get to continue living according to the bible which is full of hate speech. If you don't give the $10, then obviously, you really don't believe the bible and in its exactitude, and don't have any room to speak of its truth as the inerrant word of a god.
So, in short, its simple. Put up, or shut up. Sorry to be so blunt, but, that appears to be dilemna you are in as a person practicing religion.
biblicalwitness: "I WAS an athiest, but praise God I've found true satisfaction in the Lord Jesus Christ. May you come to know him too."
Really, lets see. So, define what your philosophy used to be as an Atheist If you have no clue, then you had a title, not a philosophy you understood. What you have done, is crucify personal logic, in order to receive some social salvation. Problem is, your loss of logic is the beginning of you living an illogical life, which may create social dysfunction, unless you find other enablers to support your habit. Seeing your first comment, I'd say you have already lost some ability to use logic, but, perhaps you feel socially popular and accepted by others who share in the same illogical belief.
The context is asking for material things like coats, cloaks, etc.
I'm asking for ten dollars.
Are you saying asking for ten dollars is the same as asking you to murder? Do you really think that compares?
Please give me ten dollars - please.
Or, disobey your God bt refusing.
So, since you've labeled me as unthankful and evil, or whatever, please OBEY YOUR GOD and grant my tiny request. You have quite a mouth, so put your money where your mouth is.
Waiting...
People have to learn religion - we all start out as atheists.
Yes I believe in governmental justice against the wicked. You can call it murder or whatever but God is a JUST God. And I didn't label you evil, I just quoted the scriptures and I'll do so again because even though I agree that God loves, he hates your sin and will punish you if you don't repent and believe in Christ. Psalm 7:11 "God is angry with the wicked every day".
Oh and I apologise for saying I was an athiest, there is no such thing, just agnostics which is what I assume you are. There is no athiest because no one can say "there is no God" because to be able to say that you need to have absolute knowledge of the universe and because no one even has 0.01% of ALL knowledge then no one can say there is no God. All you can say is that you don't believe there is a God. However, this will not change anything. Whether you believe in God or not, you'll still stand before him and give account of yourself, your sin and your rejection of Christ.
Oh and to comment again on your money making scam, you're acting just like the moneychangers and those who were buying and selling in the temple. They were rogue traders and Christ went in with a whip and scourged them and overthrew the tables.
Please friend, consider your ways!
Your right, we cannot say with 100% that there is no deity just as you cannot say with 100% that there is a deity! Your odds go through the floor in trying to say that your god is the right god, probably less than 1%!
true to a certain extent, but after having weighed both sides (is there or isn't there a God?) i have concluded beyond shadow of doubt that God MUST exist and that this God has created the universe. I mean to say that all genetic information of ALL life comes from a single celled organism, and that that organism came from some sort of 'soup' and that the earth came from a rock wherein lay all the matter of the whole universe and that this rock just exploded giving what we have today...it's ludicrous!
No, by choosing the verses I am giving you the mind of God, not my mind. I can't see where I have been rude but whatever.
I shall cast no more pearls other than one, "let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him RETURN unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
I find no evidence to believe in a god or gods, so I don't. For much the same reason - no evidence - I don't believe in UFOs, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, the mysteries of Bermuda Triangle, the lost continent of Atlantis or that ancient astronauts visited our ancestors.
By your definition of atheism, you should be believing in UFOs, the Invisible Flying Pink Unicorn, Allah, Zeus, and every other god or goddess ever invented.
Why?
Because you cannot possible traverse the entire universe to PROVE those things don't exist.
That is so stupid!
You are every bit as much an atheist as I am. The ONLY difference between you and me is that you believe in one more god than I do.
Oh, there is one other difference. You're extremely rude. You see, this is OUR website, and you are an uninvited guest. You are in our house - yet you have no problem being aggressive and nasty.
Ah, I love "TRUE" Christians like you. "I did not call you evil, I just quoted the Scriptures," you say. Yes, but you chose the verses to quote, now didn't you? You picked them with your mind. You decided to type them with your fingers. Your intention was to label me as evil. You did that, and you enjoyed it, didn't you? How about this: "I am only quoting the Koran and doing the will of Allah!" Does that convince you of the truth of Islam? If not, why not? When you understand why the rantings of an Islamic fanatic mean nothing to you, you'll realize why your rantings mean nothing to us.
However, go ahead, quote away. You disobey the command of your GOD to give to everyone who asks, and you hold fast to the verses that condemn people. You don't want to give away your money to wicked strangers, so you ignore those verses, but you have no problem condemning others, so those verses are "right on" - apparently.
Frankly, quote all you like. Islamics do the same thing, and not one of their verses, or your verses, have the slightest impact on me. From what I understand, Allah's hell is a lot hotter than Yahweh's - perhaps we should both convert to Islam!
Seriously, please study some Christian history - the Bible keeps has been re-interpreted so many times, you'd might be surprised to realize that your brand of fundamentalism, and many of your doctrines, are relatively new.
How do I know this? I studied. Nearly all the doctrines floating around today are relatively new on the scene. That knowledge helped free my mind after 3 decades of slavery to the Christian Meme.
Sadly, in my Christian hey-days, I used to sound just a little to much like you.
It's embarrassing.
A little middle-aged man wearing a self-righteous smirk, his hands plastered against his ears, shouting at the top of his lungs: "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA."
Please, please, please, please obey your GOD! I'm only asking for $10. If you refuse to do what's right, especially you, since God is your buddy, then you risk all for a meager ten-spot.
I guess a pharasitical condemnatory approach to religion is cheaper and easier than the obedience route.
Is calling someone a swine a compliment?
So it's GOD who is rude bastard!
That makes sense.
So, in that case, when the Nazi's acted out the words written in Mein Kampf, it was only Hitler's mind that was being touted, and the SS were guiltless.
BW, the Bible was written by men - bronze age men - ignorant men - men. You are quoting the words of MEN!
You should have left it at middle-aged. At 23, you really have a lot to learn.
Another broken promise.
Perhaps you should admit you are agnostic towards Allah, for you cannot possibly explore the entire universe to be sure Allah doesn't exist!
I'm still waiting for my $10. I don't think you believe in your Jesus either - you certainly don't find ignoring his commands a problem.
Nice religion.
And you computed that number, how?
MEN WROTE THE BIBLE - MEN WROTE THE BIBLE - MEN WROTE THE BIBLE.
Okay, say it with me, MEN WROTE THE BIBLE.
I hope someday you learn to think with your own mind instead of just being a parrot.
G'bye.
God HATES what you are doing (yes, HATES) so why should I help you in something my Lord and Saviour hates? Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate...
So you see, why should any believer contribute to your sin if God HATES it?
HATE?????????
How can an all loving God produce Hatred?????
Unless this god is Satan also, so thats the KEY isn't it?
God and Satan are one, like a Twoheaded Beast.
Yes we have it..God and Satan is one enitity, a GODLY TWOHEADED Beast Creature Thing.
One side of this godly beast is always loving, kind, caring, blessing, sympathetic, forgiving, sharing, etc.
But the other side of this godly beast is always a cruel, hating, damnning, punishing, deceiving, killing, tortureing, judging, etc.
According to the babble there is only one God, then this means that only one God can be worshipped, thusly then no one can worship Satan, without worshipping God also.
This being that God and Satan are one God together and cannot be seperated, there can only be one God, the one that controls all things that are Good and Evil.
This is the reason that no one has ever been allowed to see this God in person and he does not make himself visible to physical beings, because this God is a dual enitity, while the good God is handsome and pleasing to the eyes, then Satan is purely wretched and discusting, no human could view this creature, without wanting to die upon the instant of casting their eyes on this creature.
The mystery solved right here folks!!!
God the creator of all things, including good and evil is in all reality a dual creator enitity creature, that cannot be fully described by the human mind, but none the less is bi-polar in nature and is one with all things consisting of good and evil, it cannot be created nor destroyed, thereby everything that it does or commands, this God creature is totally to blame and responsible.
It is called, I AM, A jealous God, I Hate, I create, I destroy, I control the Universe.
I God, know all things that exist, because I God, created everything that there is.
There is no other God or Gods, I am the God, the God of all Good and Evil, the God of all things.
I God, you cannot worship me, you cannot pray to me, I already know all there is to know, all worshipping and praying will be in vain and futile.
I God, there is nothing a human can do to win my favor, by having creating you and your source of DNA Blocks, this alone is my favor to you, but you humans hold the key to your own demise.
I God, by supplying you humans a planet that you can call your own and I gave you humans freewill to think clearly, you humans control how you all behave, depending on how you use your ability to think clearly and to live in peace and harmony together will also seal you and your planet's your own fate.
There is no need for any religion or Godly worship of any kind, there is no need for hatred or anamosity between any humans, all humans have the ability to rise above seperation between races, you can all live comfortably and peacefully together, but only if you give up your differences and your false religions, otherwise you will become as vipers to one another, trying to impress and impose on to someone that your God is better than someone elses, when there can only be one God, the one God that no one is allowed to see, for now.
I God, created the Universe and gave you humans a gift of life to share on the floating sphere that you call Earth, and what do you do? You have distroyed, defaced, and are near annihilation and extermination of most of my precious creations.
Why? Because you humans insist in worshipping an invisible enitity that to you for some reason think that something that you can possibly do to would be pleasing to me. I God, have no reason and no disire to be pleased or worshipped by anything or anyone, so stop this nonsense now, before I God, send a Tsunami over the face of the Earth.
I God, put you humans on this planet to grow in mind and peace with one another, but what have you done? you've divided yourselves with religion and religious philosophies and have used wealth and greed to seperate yourselves when there is not one human better than another human anywhere on the planet, not one.
Is this the thanks that I get, for giving you humans a chance to grow and prosper and to love one another, to be kind and helpful and thoughtful to everyone?
You humans make a mockery of me God, with your daunting religions and your self-serving philosophies and your man made churches and your religious false idols and icons.
You were all made equal, and my love for you all is equal, there will be no judgement after your death, I cannot hold judgement on something that I alone created.
All humans and all animals that have ever lived will be with me in the my kingdom of peace for ever. I do not find fault with any being that I have created or that has ever lived.
Live for peace and brotherhood do not live for what your mind can imagine, I God cannot be imagined, your brain does not have the capability to imagine a creator such as I, I God, with held that function for my own reasons.
Humans heed to this message, you need to be saved from your own insanity.
Obviously, you don't know much about your own philosophy, as suspected.
BW: "There is no athiest because no one can say "there is no God" because to be able to say that you need to have absolute knowledge of the universe and because no one even has 0.01% of ALL knowledge then no one can say there is no God."
This gets better every time I have to see it, however, lets play the game. BW, you make a great point. We create our beliefs based on knowledge, even our wishes and desires. Its part of all that universal knowledge, that we just don't have.
You, started out with no knowledge in this life, and have only received knowledge of this physical reality. There is "zero" information, you hold, that can be considered obtained from a supernatural source, i.e., a god, who resides in some transcendental reality outside of this universe. Therefore, I know for a 100% fact that; 1) You learned the word "god" from a physical person, 2)You learned the "concept" of that god, by modeling in your mind how the god given to you would appear if you were to "imagine" it; and 3) You have no information, either experiential or physical that can be used uniquely to prove a claim of something residing in a transcendent reality where a god per christianity is supposed to exist.
So, lets just say this; I know for a 100% fact, that "you" have Zero knowledge of the god you say exists, because you can't have that knowledge if your god resides in a transcendent reality. I know for a 100% fact, that if you can't have knowledge (explicit sensory information detailing the god), or experience a transcendent god, then you can not possibly "Claim" that a god exists.
In the future, when you finally leave this planet, after death, I will further know for a 100% fact, that if you "do" experience something novel, and in a transcendent reality, it will "Not" be something you previous knowledge of. Therefore, you can't claim it to be the "god" you pictured in your mind, as that would make your god, a natural god.
If you don't have previous knowledge of it, it in fact does not exist. You 'hope' that something will exist beyond this life for you, but all you have is hope.
Therefore, from an Atheist point of view, your "god" does not exist in a universal sense, and that's a 100% fact. The god in your mind is much different than any other persons' concept of god on this planet, because you model your god in your own mind based on your experiences in life. So, great point, we have only so much knowledge of this universe. But, you are obviously lacking in the logic department. Knowledge of the Universe will never render you knowledge of your god.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but... even if you had 100% full knowledge of this universe, you still couldn't prove your god exists... Why? Because the knowledge of this universe is natural knowledge, not "SuperNatural" knowledge. Your god is supposed to be of SuperNatural origin and make-up. See how that works, its impossible to say your god exists, but its easy for an Atheist to say... Your god in your 'naturaul' Mind, does not exist in a transcendent reality, end of story. Because all you have is natural knowledge floating around in your mind.
Agnostic: "Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth values of certain claims, particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods or deities, are either unknown or inherently unknowable."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic
I know this is abstract, and I get pinged for it every now and then, but let me just say I see Agnosticism and Atheism as kin. An Atheist is more convinced of the Agnositics argument than the Agnostic, that's all.
Atheism = Knowledge must build Existence. Without "knowledge", no existence.
Agnosticism = Existence doesn't necessarily have to be based on Knowledge. There is the potential for existence beyond ones' knowledge. However, this would mean, that a god may exist, but can never be "known".
Now, BW, define your god, and I'll tell you which of the two make more sense. If you define your god, as the typical mainstream christian, then obviously, Atheism is a viable belief. If you define your god, as something as general as "the greater something of this universe", then Agnosticism makes a better argument.
Here's the bottom line, the further you move from this physical reality to validate your god, the more Attrative Atheism becomes as a belief system. If you move closer to natural terms, basing your view of god more in line with this universe and physical reality, then Agnosticism becomes an Attractive belief system.
The more "specific" your description of a god, the more unlikely the existence, and hence, better support for Atheism. The more "general" your description of a god, the more likely you will be able to bring people from Atheism to Agnosticism, in a logical argument.
However, logically speaking, the best you can hope to do is to argue someone into an Agnostic position, based on your concept of god. Atheism is the rebuttal to bible breathing inerrant bible with extremely defined specific god. Agnosticism is the rebuttal to the liberal christian who believes "something" exists, but they just can't put their finger on it.
So, why don't you describe your god for us, and lets see which positions we take up. I'd love to hear your detailed description, of a just and loving god, with all the anthropomorphic detail, as I am sure you know where I am going to fall back to for rebuttal - or perhaps not. I am not sure, you even got what I just said.
A) "The bible says...(insert arbitrary/biased passage from the bible)"
B) 'Twas the Night Before Christmas "says" that a fat dude in a red suit climbs down chimneys and delivers presents to all the girls and boys on the planet.
Religio-bot challenge: Silently---please go through the normal thought process of determining that the latter situation, "B", is false.
...::tick-tock, tick-tock::...
'Done yet? Okay, good job... now take the EXACT same reasoning/deduction skills that you just got done using to determine that "B" is false, and apply them to the former situation, "A"....EXCEPT, pretend for a second that you don't get rewarded eternal life for believing in "A".
Viola! Now wasn't that easy? Welcome to reality! lol!
PS: Also, if you would, please get it through your skulls that everyone came into this world an "Atheist"(i.e...without belief in gods).
Voltaire.
via Dave.
But we don't believe in your god, so YOUR statement is meaningless. I could just as well warn you that Allah or Krishna has left you "with your own devices". Does that statement carry any significance for you? Probably not. Do you see the parallel?
Anonymous: "Just remember, in the end what you believe or don't believe doesn't matter. Only one person's opinion counts...you know who that is."
No, I don't know who that is. Which "person" are you referring to?
Anonymous: "All the language here blaspheming my God. I'd be shaking in my boots."
Be sure to put on some music when you're shaking those boots. :-)
Anonymous: "No sense in quoting scripture to you, because you turn it all around to make it say what you want."
Another possibility is that we insist on reading its plain and obvious meaning, and NOT spinning it so as to avoid all the difficulties. In my experience it's the Christians who bend word meanings and ignore context to a much greater extent than the non-believers.
Anonymous: "Not believing in God, Heaven and Hell won't make it go away."
Believing in them does not make them real. Do you agree with that or not?
Bye.
Great, apparently the "device", I've been given, is my Mind and therefore, your god obviously intended me to use that device, knowing omnisciently well, that he couldn't be logically accepted.
Oh, and while you are shaking in your boots, it appears that you are suggesting that your omnipotent god is a "person", or is your device not working properly. I can envision you now, shaking like a bobblehead doll in a mosh pit with your eyes closed due to fear. Enjoy your delusional life...
You say that your god and your beliefs are real, yet you insist in useing the word (if), if you are right, if we are wrong, yet you cannot say for 100% certainty that you are right, why not? What gives you the right to come on here or anywhere else and spout your silly beliefs without 100% certainty?
Keep believing guys.
Dave
And then went on to say:
"Matthew says not to throw your pearls to swine...dust off your feet and leave...(not word for word)...I'll leave you in own your little corner. One thing, if I'm wrong and you're right, I really don't have anything to lose; but if I'm right and YOU'RE wrong, you have a whole lot to lose."
Well as we can see, the only way these little twits (Christians) “think” they can get you to believe and accept their religion is through meaningless threats.
I am more afraid of an abusive spouse who will most definitely, without a doubt, no ifs ands or butts kick my ass if I don't do what he says. - but a mythical god paaaaleaseeee.
The Abusive Spouse Syndrome is exactly the kind of mentality these (once again) twits are trying to push. You Christians need some serious help and any competent psychiatrist will tell you to run quickly from such a relationship.
There are some philosophical renderings which must be taken on philosophically. However, I can't think of one dichotomy, when dealing with metaphysics. For instance, you suggest two possibilities, an Atheist point of view, where you have nothing to lose, and your own personal flavor of god, heaven and hell where everyone who doesn't think like you pays.
However, what about the billions of other people who have religions or philosophies which are nothing like yours or what you perceive the people on this site to believe. There are billions of possibilities, one for every person and their personal belief, based on their unique perspective.
So, probability just shot you into a category, where your religious proposition is one in billions, and you have no logical evidence for your belief. I suppose you should be shaking in your boots, you're playing the religious market, but you haven't diversified. Perhaps, you should pick up a few more religions, just in case yours isn't the right one.
Just take up some of the more polytheistic religions, like Daoism (Taoism), they are more universal and accept many gods, and for a bonus their religious foundations date back 3/4 Century BCE.
Um, you need to check your facts. I'm not sure where you heard that, but five seconds with Google will turn up much to the contrary. Here is one such link. Please do check out the claims through other sources; I don't expect you to take my word for it. You'll find that Mithra, Osiris, and Krishna predate Jesus, and were also archetypal hero figures, just like Jesus.
Oh, and by the way, you forgot a cliché: "He sent his only son to die for us".
Be good now.
"God is a jealous"
Is it jealous of the other gods?
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Who is the US and who is the OUR in Let us make man to our image?
Did your god need help from the other 5000+gods?
Well I realize I'm talking to a 14 year old boy scout here.
You have christ!!! What the crap does that mean? It means that you've been brainwashed to believe in a mythological being.
"He was here long before your other man made gods." Are you really that daft?
What makes you think that you are a christian? You and only you.
You have to tell people that you are a christian, why? can't they tell without you telling them?
So if you were a Muslim, you would want bomb people that do not believe like you, but yet you think you have a right to pass judgement on people that do not believe the same as you, then you're no different than a Muslim, you're a self-righteous bigot who thinks that by having a belief makes you superior over others that do not have a belief as yours,
that is the intention, and M.O. behind all religions, to make one think that they are superior just because they have a belief in an ancient myth.
I know this is way over your head, it will be years before you come to your senses, if ever!!!
It's probably now time to catch your school bus, run along you little snot-nosed punk.
If you think Christianity is so superior to Islam in regards to killing those who disagree, try thinking beyond your personal history and culture and just think about how Christianity treated its detractors in the past.
For well over a thousand years non-Christians were marginalized, tortured, or murdered for not being "true" Christians. You really need to read some history.
As far as being persecuted for being a Christian, what torture have you endured? People rolling their eyes? People laughing? People slowly inching away from the conversation?
Well, stroke that horrible persecution complex of yours and obey your God's commands: may I have ten dollars please?
Guilty of what? Not believing in him? Not cowtowing? Not fearing and trembling?
What?
For beating off I'm going to be burning in horrific conscious agony for all eternity?
For telling my wife that white lie I'm going to cook like a hamburger on an eternal barbecue pit?
Tell me something "WILL NOT CLEAR THE GUILTY," what sin or sins have you committed in your short little life that deserve everlasting punishment in God's sadistic torture chamber? What kind of justice demands an eternity of burning tortured agony, without any chance of release, as the recompense for supposed temporal offenses?
Anyway, can I have ten dollars?
$10 for a stranger who led me to Christ when i wandered away from my grandparents at a woodworking craft show they took me to when i was a child.
$10 for my ex-atheistic sister who sought the Lord on her face and welcomed Him into her life last year.
$10 for me - and i hope it DOES help this site grow and flourish. i am certain other christians will peruse this page and be heartbroken, moved, touched, and motivated as i have been.
chances are i'll not be back here, so reply comments might be in vain. i'll tell you, however, to keep thinking - and praying if you're the praying type - about the reality of God and the love, grace, and mercy He offers. i, too, am sick to death of religion, church, and christians. we're not perfect (though some of us would argue about that...) but we're being transformed into the One who is.
be blessed and be a blessing.
quoting from the bible, it can be very confusing i know, truth is it has a lot of metaphors and all that. so in order to get the truth u hve to dig deep. whnever i encounter something fishy in the bible, i stop and pray to God about it. Usually he leads me into understanding them thru many ways, e.g. reading helpful books, listening to spirit-filled pastors, etc. wen u think abt it, God talks in many ways! some of u may hve turned from the faith maybe because u literally didnt hear from God, but actually God talks in many ways (not exactly literally His voice from heaven, though some people do!=D) reading the Bible is one way He speaks to us! His Spirit enables us to stop and take notice!
im a christian, and what i'd like to say is that Christ lives in me. His Holy Spirit dwells in me. that's all that matters. u say that uve asked God to come into your life many times but never really 'felt' it. the question is, have u really encountered God? if u ask me why i believe in God i can just say, I just do. I because I encountered Him, His Holy Spirit is one on the myriad of proof to me that He is real (sorry for my bad english btw). ive recently been to a youth camp with a very anointed preacher. the altar calls were amazing! no doubt God's spirit was moving in the place. i remember just standing with other youths and praying to God with hands lifted up, I could feel the Holy Spirit fall on me as I began to speak in tongues then whoosh! i fall backwards with other youths. the irony is that its my body's gone limp and that's how i fell backwards. i was also shaking and still speaking in tongues. i have to say my mind was still conscious then, and it was like im in my body and my mind can still think and i was thinking to myself, "wow, i'm speaking in tongues!" after all that i sat up. i was still shaking and praying. then i got up and walked over to my friend; i had the longest hug ever and we cried. we cried because of our encounter with God. He was very real.
ive noticed that wen people are really in conviction, their souls are crying out and they're thinking, "is there more to life? (btw its like the song 'more to life' by stacie orico. shes a christian singer too) ive tried this and that (such as drugs) but all is left inside of me is emptiness." so wen they cry out to God... "God, if you are real, show me. Heal my wounds. I'm dissatisfied in this world...." thats wen God comes. He's compassionate to those who humble themselves and shake off worldy vices, admitting that there's really nothing in the world. and the rest? it's history. they hve encountered God.
dont be surprised if i said that i'll pray for conviction to come upon u guys. its one thing for u to open ur eyes and realize. where u can just say "I GIVE UP! GOD HELP ME!! I CANT DO THIS!"
sometimes its sad to think that people try to fill that special God-shaped vacuum in their hearts with substitues such as ..looking for happiness by seeking pleasure. or by gaining prestige and power or by acquiring possessions. they are not eternal; u cannot find genuine, longlasting happiness in them.
if im getting really confusing here, im sorry. i'd love to point to u everything. the bottom line is, that we first shrug off these arguments, and determine God first. ask these two crucial questions:
1)who are You, Lord?
2)Lord, what do u want me to do?
what can i say about the other christians here who try to explain to you all and try to answer ur questions? they just want to help. i see some of the comments here and it can really be exhausting just reading them. i cud just give up and spit out, "go to hell! then u'll know!" but wat i am trying to say is that we're doing this out of love. we 're spending all this time to try to pull u in God's love and experience all the goodness. at the moment there r alot of hatred and sin this world, the devil is trying his very best to try to lead people away from God, deceive them into believing he does not exist, etc A LOT! the devil is afraid that christians will have many converted so he works double harder to try to convince others not to, offering a myriad of questions, skepticism, philosophies, etc. we as christians r also trying our best.
so bottom line is:
"Not by might nor power, but by the Spirit of the Lord," -Zechariah 4:6
b4 i go id like to clear stuff abt why i wudnt wanna leave my site address, etc...well truth is im still in my early teens and of course i wud wanna keep myself safe.
oh yeah and in reply to freeman's question:
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Who is the US and who is the OUR in Let us make man to our image?
Did your god need help from the other 5000+gods?
"Let Us make man to Our image.."
The "Us" and "Our" in the sentence is...well God the father was talking to His son of course! [God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit] are ONE, in Trinity. Jesus was with Him. and if ur wondering, "wat do u mean? Jesus only appeared many years later on!" actually, no, see... the Trinity. God literally shook off His glory and came to earth as a humble human (Jesus) so He could experience EVERYTHING human beings go through. so yeah that's wat it is. it's not other 5000+ gods. They are One.
so u see, dont easily jump into conclusions.
and if u have any doubts abt the trinity id be glad to help.
i might get scowled at or criticized abt all this, but i do hope that i have shed some light in on this.
ok later! =)
p.s. lurves_it@yahoo.com
No shit?....early teens? Who wudve guessed? LOL
Ignited, listen up---This is an EX-christian site, understand? We've seen a B-A-Z-I-L-L-I-O-N testimonies just like yours from X-ians who stumble in here thinking that they have some kind of unique perspective on "Truth". Understand, your post means ZERO to any rational/free thinker. You use words like "spirit" and "Trinity", yet, those words have no referent in reality. NONE. Like others, you're argument for your God amounts to nothing but your own delusional subjective experience. And believe me, we've heard them ALL.
BTW, you haven't
"answered" anyone's question(s) here. Hell no---all you've done is regurgitate a bunch of "pop" X-ian superstitious sound bites---the same biblio-crap that was handed to the very person(s) who handed it to you.
And please, before you bumble your way back in here and tell us we're all going to "hell".... please, brush up on the meanings AND the differences of the words "subjective", and "objective". Thanks.
Does this mean you will be obeying your God and sending me $10.00?
webmaster,
eh? me? i dont hve credit card or wtv to pay u. but even if i did, i wudnt pay. thts it. end of discussion.
Do your parents know you're on this site? Shall I notify them?
It's not your English---it's your grammer, spelling, and punctuation that give you away. And before anyone get's hot under the collar--- no one's saying that ALL Christians are uneducated, it's just that most uneducated people are religious.
nearlyfooled
What you are saying is you refuse to obey your God if it means feeding pigs.
You are being disobedient to a clear command that appears inconvenient, and hiding behind a verse that keeps your money and self-righteousness safely protected.
BTW, in context, those pearls refer to pearls of wisdom, not ten lousy dollars.
My conscience is clear... how's yours?
Sincerely,
Matthew L. Bergen
Stella, MO
"I just answered your challenge as a true Christian. However, my donation was $20 since Matthew 5:41 says: "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain (two)."
My conscience is clear... how's yours?
Sincerely,
Matthew L. Bergen
Stella, MO"
NOW Matthew!
Look in your bible and find a verse about not hiding your light under a bushel or not being afraid to profess your faith in Jesus. (I'm sure you can find one to cover this)
Pack up you clothes and get on an airplane and fly to a Muslim country, stand on the street corner and yell at the top of you voice: "Mohammed was a perverted pedophile, crazy as a loon" over and over, and give up your head also. Their religious book tells them to kill you if you profane their prophet or denounce their God, Allah.
Dan (agnostic bacon loving realist)
Hey wait, if I give ten dollars does that make me a "true" christian. Oh wait, I'm not a christian, LOL!
I assure you, I am doing all I can in the place I currently live to "let my light shine" as you so forthrightly admonished me. I actually have been in prayer about if I am to do that in another nation, even a Muslim nation.
I will continue to pray for you.
In Christ's Love,
Matthew L. Bergen
Dave W/M, deserves credit for keeping this site up. I know it must be a full time job. Anyone who sends him money deserves to be thanked by those of us who spend time reading and posting here.
I do know that this website has been an education for me. I guess I am just to dumb to know where to look but I would like to see a P/O Box or something where I could have "Bill Pay" send a check. That is the only way I pay bills or send money to anyone.
Dan (Who never really did take Christianity seriously, and now that I know how silly it is, never could)
Please know that I do not mean this in a rude or spiteful way. I am glad to give money (if I have it to give) to any individual who truly has a need.
Yours,
Matthew L. Bergen
Catagorize me whatever way you like, but it seems to me that a Christian who fleeces Christians is most accurately comparable to an ex-Christian who fleeces ex-Christians. I am an ex-Christian and I haven't asked a dime of any ex-Christian yet.
Christian televangelists use guilt and vague promises of blessings from God to cajole Christians into handing over their hard-earned cash.
Unlike those crooked Christian televangelists, I don't ask ex-Christians for anything, and I don't make stupid promises. In all sincerity this entire article is nothing more than illustrative of how asinine is the command to "give to all who ask." How about: Resist not evil? Do you follow that? Do you think it was wrong for the Patriots to resist England in during the American Revolution? Are those who fight for freedom anywhere around the world committing sin by resisting evil?
Resist not evil! Give to all who ask!
Think about it!
Now, if I asked you for many more dollars than ten, would you meekly cough them up? If not, why not?
Thanks!
How about a hundred?
I feel sorry for your child.
"atheistmommy, I feel sorry for your child."
Why feel sorry for child who will undoubtedly be taught to think and reason for themselves? If anything, it should be commended. So why don't you spare us, and her, your bullshit apologetic pity. Thanks.
Since assuming you are a True Christian™, may I please have $10.00?
Hehehehehe, there were "zero" christians before CE, according to the bible as well, as there was no "Christ". So, it appears that there really wasn't a "necessity" for all of those previous thousands of years. Also, during the theoretical "christ's" lifetime, there were multiple sects of religion that had entirely different views of the "nature" of Jesus, hence, still "no true christians".
What necessitated christianity, was Constantine I's laws that were passed to establish "one" true religion, not out of "truth", but totally out of his own strategy to unite his empire, and it never happened, all the religious sects continued to wage war and battle with each other. To this day, the offshoots of the early eclectic christian movement still disagree vehemently with eachother.
For christianity to be the true religion, there has to be "one" objectively guided christian, and Phil, we know there is no such thing as a totally "objective" anyone, right. Thus, there is "no" true christian, who can point their finger at all of the other christian denominations/sects/orders/wards, etc., and state with total sincerity that there is "one" true christian belief. If you find that person there Phil, lets call that totally "objective" person "god", as that is the definition of god, no? A totally perfect, and objective entity.
The day we get a "true" christian, is the day we no longer have to worry about christians being bigotted, amazing how that works out, isn't it.
But regarding the $10... I'm supposed to just give you whatever you ask? What if you asked for something that was bad for you? Hey, you know, isn't money the root of all evil? Yeah... I bet you have a nasty drug habit don't you? Hmmm... can I sent food stamps? :-) Just jokes.
Sure you might be able to say something about revealing the 'truth' or something. But is that it? Or are you upset that you haven't had a good 'christian experience' and want to wreck it for everyone else. I just want to see why you don't just let people continue being 'ignorant' to what they believe?
(please don't mock me if thats a silly question, this thread contains a lot of harsh comments which just proves how passionate everyone is about the subject...i just wanna know why)
Again, you really need to read your bible. Those who sacrificed as "god" commanded, did so to "El", the god of the Old Testament. Pre-CE, there was no "Christi", nor is the "one" word in the "entire" Old Testament that is labelled "Christ". There were "no" christians CE, Phil, but there were Jews, who worshipped their god "El".
Paul enters the story in the New Testament, stating that a Christ was born, and that the Jews no longer had to follow their Old Testament laws for the most part. The Jews, and anyone else who believed in Paul's words, became Pauline Christians, not just "Christians". Thus, there is "no" one true christian, if you want to delve into Paul's life based on biblical account, you're going to find him to be far less than the perfectly objective person that could create the "one" true religion.
According to tradition, he murdered those who followed a christ in his later years. He was jailed in Rome, for committing unlawful acts, and then he couldn't keep Jewish law, because it was too ascetic for him.
There was no Christ's ultimate sacrifice of himself, either. Depending on your belief, God and Jesus are one in the same, at least by "some" christians, not all. This means, Jesus sacrificed himself to "himself", so that he could save humanity, from the punishment that "he" imposes on humanity. If Jesus is "god", why the need to self-sacrifice, he could have just changed the universe to make it "right", instead, humanity is still "sin" ridden according to many different christian denominations, thus, sinful humanity is "exactly" what Jesus/god wanted, and hell still exists. So, god/jesus obviously knew that their plan to save humanity, wouldn't work, even though they are "gods". These gods seem to be two stooges, I suppose you could throw El, and satan in there and call them the three stooges; Satan, El, YHWH/Jesus.
One persons' ignorance is fine, if they can keep it to themselves. However, only a dunce would believe that a person can live their life, without "ever" influencing others around them. An ignorant person, who can't logically control their mind, is prone to do things that negatively effect others in society. The majority of serial killers, accross the "world", have had religious backgrounds, the percentage last time I researched it had religiously influenced serial killers greater than 99%.
Personally, I don't feel the need to nurture that type behavior. Now, I suppose you could say that these serial killers did not follow their religious beliefs, and they were hypocrites, but, then, so are the majority of religious people. Well, they contend they aren't hypocrites, because they were already born to make mistakes, they just can't help themselves, and should be forgiven, right.
@ one true christian - Regarding God changing the universe to make everything peachy without any bloody sacrifice: God is just -- meaning he always acts in accordance with what is right that he is himself the final standard of what is right. To do as you say and 'make everything right' would be to go against himself.
were you talking to me? if not it doesnt matter because yes my brain does hurt...
Sure, I see what you're saying. Satan is the god YHWH and all names are truly meaningless in a supernatural sense because no one can assign attributes to any "One" god, or supernatural entity. Thanks for clearing that up, perhaps, you should talk to some Roman Catholic priests in the Levant area, who are in the habit of killing people during their exorcisms, because they can't tell which "supernatural" entity is dwelling in a persons' body at any given moment.
And, if you don't like the results of your mind experiment, then perhaps, then perhaps you are going to suggest there "is" a way to discern between two supernatural entities. When you get that answer, by all means, use it to distinguish between the god El, and Yahweh. I mean, by basic reading, I see that entirely different attributes were projected onto these two gods, and they were "made" or "created" by mankind to explain specific events in ones' life, and to establish a "supreme" god, who loved only "one" tribe of people, etc. The northern tribe gets weak, and the southern tribe takes over, makes sense to me.
Lastly, there is the "faith" aspect to the whole supernatural realm. You, "trusted" another person, when they told you that the supernatural realm exists, even though, a person can never really know the attributes of the supernatural realm, while living in this natural existence. After accepting this persons'/groups testimony, you began to feel "confident" about your "faith" (belief in a supernatural entity). I don't know currently, the level of "confidence" you ascribe to your belief in the supernatural, but its enough for you to suggest a "god" does exist. Your confidence is based on another persons' testimony. All religion follows this premise, at least, from "all" the religious research I have ever done.
Even if a person were to have a moment they had never experienced, if they sought an answer from many religious people, they of course, would chalk the experience up to a "god", their "god" to be precise.
No, trust builds confidence, and confidence builds belief. When you suggest that everyone has some level of "faith", you mean to suggest that everyone has "trust" in something. True, however, I trust "myself" first, and I have yet to see any supernatural attributes. You, trusted someone else, and accepted their supernatural explanations. However, if you go back to who told that person, and who told that person, all the way back to the beginning of Constantine I's reign.
"The First Council of Nicaea in 325 debated the terms homoousios and homoiousios. The word homoousios means "same substance", whereas the word homoiousios means "similar substance". The council affirmed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Godhead) are of the homoousious (same substance). This is the source of the English idiom "differ not by one iota." Note that the words homoousios and homoiousios differ only by one 'i' (or the Greek letter iota). Thus, to say two things differ not one iota, is to say that they are the same substance.
The Chalcedonian Creed of 451 stated God is one ousia yet three hypostases.
Saint Gregory Palamas was an Eastern Orthodox saint and teacher of the uncreated energies and their relationship to the essence or ousia of the godhead. What is important is that the energies lay outside of the godhead. Gregory Palamas had also a very different history in his teachings which state that the uncreated energies is actually energies like Truth, Love, Justice. This is incontrast to the Neoplatonism of the source or uncreated energy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousia
So, Phil, your trust is unfounded from my perspective. There was no one at the point of origin, during these debates that held enough information to build my confidence, so that I may have believed. Again, Constantine I, forced a deliberation on the issue through his promotion of the Nicene Creed vote.
"The Nicene Creed, which is a classic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity, uses "homoousios" (Greek: of the same essence) of the relation of the Son's relationship with the Father. This word differs from that used by non-trinitarians of the time, "homoiousios" (Greek: of similar essence), by a single Greek letter, "one iota", a fact proverbially used to speak of deep divisions, especially in theology, expressed by seemingly small verbal differences."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
You can suggest "what's in a name", but its a little deeper than that, isn't it. Do you believe all gods are of the same substance (albeit, there is "no way" to test that theory, hence all the voting), or do you believe gods have different substance?
It appears, that there is "more" than just a name. Gods were created based on human "need", and the human condition of that era. Not everyone had the same needs or purpose, there Phil. Thus, your god is different because its purpose is to fill "your" need. In order for you to suggest another persons' god is the same, is for you to suggest, that "everyone" should have the exact same "need(s)", and your view of a god, would remain with the same purpose.
There are over 4,932 gods the last time I looked at my book on mythology, each of them filling specific needs; fertility gods, farming gods, rain gods, fire gods, supreme gods, creator gods, etc., etc. The only thing common there Phil, is the human condition, and the fact that people have "needs", no matter what the name. But each persons' god, is truly different, as it would be pompous and ignorant to suggest that everyones' needs are or should be "exactly" the same.
So, what have we learned. Supernatuarl gods, can not be described using material attributes such as "substance", as no one lives in a supernatural realm, and... its arrogant to suggest that the ideal of a god should be the exact same for everyone, as that implies everyone should have the exact same needful purposes. Hence, the "different" names used, to describe different "needs". Phil, you would have to bring everyone together under the same exact belief system, and tell everyone, they have the exact same needs, kinda' like Constantine I did.
Many religions do assert that their "god" is the one and only true god, that's not me Phil, that's religion. I understand the social needs of humanity, to a great extent, and although I know its absurd to even discuss "supernatural" gods, while standing in this "natural" universe, as if we are in two places at the same time (perhaps superposited), I am willing to concede a personal "god" ideal, as a symbol for a persons' needs/desires.
My needs and desires are not the same as yours Phil, and yours are not the same as anyone elses. To end, your needs change, and your level of knowledge changes, and over time, the personality of your "personal" god changes as well. I suppose what I suggest, is that there are "gods" Phil, but they are personally subjective and based on "Natural" needs. There is no such thing as a supernatural god, its absurd to talk about it, or speculate on how one supernatural entity, is the same, or different. Enjoy your god, it fills your need, whatever your need, but is subjectively known by you, and no one else. Forcing a god onto an entire Empire didn't work, learn from history - the human condition prevents one "god" from being thrown up as a fix-all, we are subjectively laden creatures.
The object I rely on to fill my needs Phil, is "me". I don't assign god labels to Natural phenomenon either - if something is unknown, that's fine, it doesn't make me feel any better putting a personality onto the unknown, so that I can feel more comfortable - its still "unknown". I have a choice, I can continue to search for Natural answers, or... assign supernatural cause, and never hope to find an answer, such is what religious leaders do, in order to keep people in a state of "fear" - fear the unknown. I don't fear the unknown, I intellectually embrace the unknown - it provides challenge, mystery, and even beauty, some would even call elegant.
Oh, before I go, can you explain why in the bible, El was described as a bull-calf, and Yahweh had "no" description, and is symbolized by an alter with an "empty" seat/chair. Hmmmmm... I wonder if "El" was the same golden calf (bull-calf), being worshipped when Moses returned from Mt. Sinai with the ten commandments, uh, yeah, and he called it idolotry. Thus, "NOT" the same god as YHWH. ciao
If I'm the one true christian, then what I say is gospel, right. And, you need to get a urinalysis test, did you read what you wrote?
Phil: "To do as you say and 'make everything right' would be to go against himself."
So; you suggest in order for your god not to contradict himself, he needed to make sure everything wasn't peachy. Got it, so your god created the universe deliberately to be a miserable state of affair, and according to the bible, the majority of people are headed for hell, and there is nothing we can do about that either.
Not unless you were the person who said "I feel sorry for your kids."
What? Are you serious?? You're not using your brain here - apply that same logic to any other "holy Book', and what do you have? The same defence for ANY religion or world view. Sorry - that's a pretty stupid reason to believe anything at all. Ask yourself 'What if I'M wrong?' What then? Who's hell are you going to roast in now???
>>If I'm wrong then I missed out on "the fun stuff" as the world would call it because I was doing my human best to keep God's commandments.
You wouldn't know God's supposed commandments if they bit you on your arse. List them for me please...
As for missing out in the fun things in life, gimme a friggin' break. Are you so ignorant and self absorbed that you think that those on this side of the fence are the only 'having fun' because we're partaking in what you might consider 'sinful' living?? You can't be for real. Again, please demonstrate that. If 'having fun' means 'living life the best we can', then hey - I'm PROUD to be a 'sinner'! Haha!
>>If you're wrong..... that's an eternity I wouldn't want to take a chance with.
Fine - then there's us, who would never go back to being the brainwashed ignoramusses we used to be. Take your bible and your stupid assinine reasoning and eat them.
I think I'll burn a bible tonight. Again...
-Wez.
To the people who do not believe the Bible to be absolute truth... What if you're wrong? If I'm wrong then I missed out on "the fun stuff" as the world would call it because I was doing my human best to keep God's commandments. If you're wrong..... that's an eternity I wouldn't want to take a chance with.
Once again, I see another reference to the "Pascal Wager," which, for those NOT familiar, states: If you believe in god:
1. If god(1) exists, you go to heaven (2) after you die;
2. If god doesn't exist, you lived a good life(3) and lose nothing(4) upon death.
If you don't believe in god:
1. If god exists, you go to hell(2) after you die;
2. If god doesn't exist, you lose nothing upon death.
Problems:
1. The asumption in (1) is that the undefined "god" is the christian god, and this therefore translates to: if the xian god exists or doesn't exist, then [...the rest of the wager]. This is a classic FALSE dichotomy, since there are multiple gods and religions from which to choose and there are infinite "possible" or hypothetical gods. Add to this the infinite atheistic possibilities. Therefore, the assumption that belief in the xian god and not others is rational is unjustified.
2. The assumption in (2) is related to (3) in that it's referring only to the xian mythology and its version of an afterlife. As with (1), there are multiple, established, different religions and infinite "possible" or hypothetical afterlives with just as much evidential weight as the xian one. Therefore, the assumption of the xian life ONLY is unjustified. This includes an afterlife in which the rules are opposite; where the unbelieving go to an eternity of bliss while the xians burn in an eternal hell!:-)
3. I disagree with (3) because being a xian does NOT equal a happy nor a moral life, necessarily.
4. I disagree with (4) because I CERTAINLY would lose things by converting "just in case" there's a nasty afterlife waiting for me. As to WHAT I would lose, it would include: self-respect, free time, wealth and various other things denied by adherence to dogma which I won't go into. There could be multiple losses for other people, too. For instance, if I rebuked evolution and instead of learning evolutionary biology I were to join a monastery, the cure for cancer that I may have discovered would either NOT be discovered altogether or be delayed.
5. There's no evidence atheists don't go on to "something better" after death, no more than theists, anyway. Atheists don't (usually) believe in afterlives, but this is just another part of the false dilemma outlined above. Buddhists, for example, may not believe in a god, and even less likely, the xian god and believe in reincarnation.
6. Fear of punishment/lust for rewards are NOT logically justified reasons to mentally accept a premise. It's merely a threat or a bribe. It would be like saying: "Join Al Qaeda so you and your family won't be killed by them and you get an eternally pleasant afterlife with 72 virgins! You have nothing to lose!"
7. The character of god, or ANY afterlife mechanism, is unknown. if there is a god, he/she/it will likely be able to tell who are true believers and who felt too threatened to "not take the chance of disbelieving."
To make a long post EVEN longer (LOL), Pascal's wager can be summed up thusly: If there was a lottery with a 1 in infinity chance of winning, would you bet your life savings on it?
I often hope that the use of pascal's wager, like the mythos of xianity, will go the way of zeus...just a li'l dream of mine...*sigh* ;-)
Some of these people are just frightening, and I have a difficult time believing that any of those who claim to have previously been an atheist, really were EVER atheists. Seekers. That's what they are. They must have SOME reason that they're here, and since this supposedly wonderful and loving god cares enough to kill his son, after having PUNISHED so many people, commanding his own people to KILL for him (all the while having that "Thou shalt not kill" law around)... it's all just absurd.
I actually stopped wasting my time replying to those religious fanatics. They won't get it because they choose to not use reason. Let them be stupid by choice. But only provided that their choices don't infringe upon my U.S.-given rights.
(Should we be scared?)
Conflicts with the final statement.
Mike then states, "This site does fall under spreading false doctrine, and to rightly divide the Word and to compare scripture with scripture, it seems to me that this site would be a wrong thing to give any help to."
Seems to be an internal conflict there Mike, care to untangle your own words?
"However, I do know the Bible and when I was 14 I did accept Jesus as my Messiah, and I also pastor a Non-Denominational Church."
So, then, we should expect that you are well versed in theology, right?
"However, love dictates that you protect the innocent, many times by killing the guilty."
Okay, define guilty?
Exodus 31:15 "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Guilty, would be anyone breaking the sabbath, at the time these laws were enacted by God.
Jesus deliberately violates the law.
John 5:17 "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
John 5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
Mike, it appears you condone the murder of Jesus according to the protect the innocent, I mean, that's all the Jews were trying to do, protect their religion and themselves from false prophets.
Jesus, the false prophet.
Deuteronomy 13:2-5 "If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke unto thee saying: 'Let us go after other gods [including other ways and beliefs] which thou hast not known, and let us serve them', thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. After the Lord your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave."
Jesus, declaring himself equal with God, was blasphemy, an act worthy of death, of course, to "protect" the innocent, right Mike. So, Jesus should have been killed according to the law that was "in place" at the time, that said "false prophets" just like Jesus would appear.
And that "law", was never to be changed.
Deuteronomy 13:1 "All this which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."
Hey Mike, ever wonder why millions of people have denied christianity? They deny christianity based on your own "protect" the innocent, who followed the original laws, by killing the guilty - Jesus. In your own words, you would support the murder of any modern day person claiming to be "God" or have direct knowledge of "God", if they were in fact trying to abolish the entire christian religion. Right.
"2 John makes it plain to not wish anyone bearing false doctrine Godspeed."
And John, speaking on behalf of Jesus, has no weight, as Jesus was a false prophet, and deserved death, "to protect the innocent".
"That means don't help that person in his spreading of false doctrine."
False doctrine? The entire New Testament which founds christianity, was established by a "false prophet". Those "false" words were used to "supersede" the laws, established by "God", and "not" to ever be changed, per Deut.
"That means don't help that person in his spreading of false doctrine."
Do you tell your followers to "not" give you money because you are spreading the words of a false prophet?
If you choose to testify only according to the Old Testament, you are Jewish. If you choose to tesify only according to the New Testament, then you invalidate the very foundations of the Old Testament which built christianity, namely, the coming of a messiah.
If you choose to accept both the Old and New equally, you become a literary hypocrite, as the two conflict and are irreconcilable, by anyone with a sixth grade education.
"Jesus was referring to people doing evil things and that we aren't supposed to be vengeful."
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Per John, Jesus calls all Jews, liars, to include their own doctrine. Yet, Jesus was the fulfillment of that same Jewish Old Testament doctrine. So, the Jews are liars, "except", when using their doctrine to support the New Testament.
New Testament:
Romans 1:32 "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
If Jesus' message was to not push people to engage in vengence, what does "worthy of death", mean. That is a physical description of death, not a spiritual. As, in the spiritual realm, it is already understood that god will have his vengence.
John 9:39 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world."
"You lend and don't expect to get back when someone has a need as a testimony and just as a testimony."
Lend, seems to connote savings bank. Who controls the money in this bank? Who determines priority and necessity of needs? Where should faith be placed when looking to invest into a good foundation?
A) The Old Testament is the only "correct" doctrine. A Jewish Rabbi.
B) The New Testament is the only "correct" doctrine. A Christian Preacher who either has less than a sixth grade education, or one who realizes the irreconcilable chasm between the old and new testaments, but is willing to push a lie, regardless.
C) Both testaments, are the correct doctrine. A messianic rabbi or christian preacher, who both have less than a sixth grade education, or both know the conflict between the two, and yet, are able to ignore the obvious.
If one requires someone who is "honest", "educated", and capable of having some "attention to detail", then, B, and C, are clearly loosers, hands down, for giving tithe or faith offerings to.
It appears "A", is the only clear choice. Unless those who give their money, are not educated enough to know how to invest wisely. So, Mike, are you a Jewish Rabbi? No, then, it would be hypocritical or contradictory for you to suggest that "you" should be able to receive a faith offering, and deny "all" others who ask for an offering based on the same scripture.
I suppose if a Jewish Rabbi comes online, they can at least make a denial based on integrity of the "Word". However, Rabinical Jews don't consider themselves Christians. Thus, "No True Christians", is the title for this thread, not "No True Jews".
Lets accept that you have a right to your belief, no matter how many see it as hypocritical at best or deliberately deceiving at most.
The Word states;
Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Romans 12:20 "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head."
Romans 12:21 "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Romans says, give the enemy what they require, in time of need.
And, in case you forgot to read the other passages provided by the WM, lets repost.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
"This site does fall under spreading false doctrine, and to rightly divide the Word and to compare scripture with scripture, it seems to me that this site would be a wrong thing to give any help to."
So, according to "your" personal belief, that is not "biblically" supported, you feel that "you" shouldn't give. You have elevated yourself above scripture, and made yourself "god".
So, if you are god, well, then, I suppose you get to choose how you guide people, and where to tell them to put their money, right.
If you are not god, then, follow scripture, and give to those in need, even if the enemy.
Further, if one chooses a path such as yours, "not biblically", to pick a wise investment, then, lets recap why no one should give to a christian leader, period.
A) Ignorance. Christian leaders who don't know their own scripture.
B) Dishonesty. Christian leaders who know the scripture, but deliberately choose to ignore and evade scriptural conflicts openly in sermon, especially the conflict of the unfulfilled Old Testament prophesies.
C) Fraud. Christian leaders who know the scripture, refuse to teach the truth of the conflict, yet, preach the parts of the bible that require people to "give" money, in order to be saved by works and deeds. Somehow, justifying in their mind, that they can do "better" with the money than those who provide that money.
Mike, why don't you build a case that supports the need to give money to church, or religious leaders. Uh, let us know what scripture you use, or if its just your opinion/creative interpretation of the Word, and why anyone should give to "your" cause/needs, and not anothers'.
By comparing scripture with scripture, we've now made Jesus say, "Love your CHRISTIAN neighbor as yourself, and to hell with everyone else."
The "comparing scripture with scripture" theory is a convenient way to use the vast amount of contradictory statements in the various books of the Bible to avoid obeying anything it says.
Please show me the verse that says, "When thou findest a command of mine, and that command maketh thee nervous, remember to find words in another book of the Bible, written by another man, at another time and place, for another situation. And if thou findest something in that other book of the Bible that could be used to modifeth or cancel my command, then thou shalt avoid my command altogether. He that does this thing shall be guiltless."
Besides, you do know that the books of the New Testament were put together between one binding hundreds of years after Jesus was dust, don't you? Up till then, no one had a New Testament! I wonder what the poor people who actually listened to Jesus' sermon, and heard him say "give to everyone who asks," would have thought about the neat way you, a preacher, are disobeying that simple command and teaching others to do so by appealing to a work that many scholars consider spurious, written by some anonymous author, at least 60 years after Jesus preached his sermon? Do you really think the context of why 2 John exists has anything to do with giving to everyone who asks?
Final analysis: Don't bid me Godspeed and do curse me. Since neither blessing nor cursing absolves you from the obligation to obey Jesus' simple command to give to everyone who asks, may I please have $10.00?
Thanks
Goldie has discovered a Greek slang word, and it has become absolutely ecstatic over using it.
Malaka-man, I agree with you.
Anony scholar, riddle me this: From which list of ten commandments did the writer of Mark copy: Do not defraud? Please give me the reference to that commandment in either Exodus or Deut.
Is this error the writer's error, or was it Jesus that didn't know the commandments?
Thanks.
BWHAHA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAA!!!!
Sorry, Strolbel is ill judged apologetic for believers only...
Hmm....
I don't think so.
Neither did the writer of Luke who decided to re-write that section in her own "Gospel": Luke 18:20. She omitted the "Do not defraud" in her list.
Interesting, no?
Jesus was supposedly quoting the Ten Commandments. "Do not defraud" is not one of the Ten Commandments, that's all. Apparently either Jesus, or the author of Mark, was a bit fuzzy on the Ten Commandments.
No one knows who wrote any of the Gospels. The authors of those books are like you, anonymous. Mark was written first, a generation after Jesus was dead. Matthew and Luke are revisions of Mark. Nearly every verse of Mark is repeated in Matthew and Luke, even down to the exact same sentences in some cases. In other cases where, Mark was deficient, the writers of the new and improved gospels added to or deleted from Mark.
For a fascinating study on the subject, go to the library and check out: Who Wrote the Gospels?. For short article on this topic: click here.
You said: "the Bible instructs us to avoid those whom enjoy arguing and nitpicking and to not partake in these events as well."
Well, that's one way to shut down any discussion and a great way to tightly close the eyes of reason when confronted with evidence contradicting your presupposition.
And you fail to cite the numerous differences in all of the gospels which would prove that they in fact are not copies of one another. And did we not just discuss how the gospels vary in differences? Are you changing your mind now? And I will not argue for the sake of argument, I will debate and discuss to help myself learn as much more as I can as well as to help you learn much more than you can.
That's the honest truth.
Do you believe the stories in Homer really happened? As far as believing in the miracles in Homer goes, by all means, throw that belief out. It's mythology!. Just like the Bible!
web
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously.
You have been told these men wrote the Gospels. You have been deceived. It is NOT clear who wrote any of it. In fact, it is doubted by nearly all modern experts on ancient documents.
Besides, Peter was not the leading disciple. Jesus' brother James took over the Jerusalem church once his brother died.
This is not a debate site. It is a site for the encouragement of ex-Christians. Read the disclaimer. Shit! Read anything besides your apologetic masters! READ MAN, READ!!!
Misrepresenting yourself is lying. You should have just admitted you were posting others' works and be done with it.
And refusing to identify yourself a little better than anonymous is cowardly.
You are everything a "true Christian™" can be proud of. Thank you for the help in showing the foolishness of Christianity.
Anyone who is literate, knows that the authors who need to be taken seriously are the Old Testament authors, who in fact, "rejected" the New Testament, and Jesus as their Messiah. An "honest", and "serious" student of the christian religion, would never get past the Old Testament, because if Jesus was the Messiah prophesied per the "Christian" god, then Jesus would have brought in the New Kingdom to the Jews, and obviously, that didn't happen, thus, Jesus was a fraud as the Jewish Messiah. Christians have to denounce the very roots of their own religion, in order to make sense of their own warped salvation plan.
Irrelevant to the topic.
"You doubt and doubt yourself so much that you do not believe anything."
I believe my self is the ultimate truth, as, without myself, I can't even think or experience, and if I don't have that, I have no knowledge of anything, and nothing matters, right.
"I haev been there and back. OCD is a disorder and not normal."
Actually, OCD is normal, based on the DSM-IV, if within normal non-debilitative limits. If you are a psychiatrist, I would like your name, and certification program, so that I may better understand your qualification on your personal diagnosis.
"Choose to believe only what you see if you please but remember that your eyes can deceive you."
I know, every time I pick up the bible, I see what appears to be deception throughout if presented as a literal non-contradictory book.
"Faith is what it is, belief in the unknown, and I have found that I am a ten times better person and happier and very patient when my faith is high."
So, when you are high, your faith is strong... makes sense to me.
"You say it is psychological and it might be. But how did the human mind come about?"
Check out biological evolution.
"What causes us to think."
Cross sectioning of synaptic fibers, within a nexus between two neural hemishperes. Check out human physiology.
"Why are we here?"
Check out linguistics, communication, and physics, without those, you wouldn't be able to ask the retarded question, so, its apparent that "meaning" is dependent on "knowledge", and you apparently are lacking in much of these areas you have questions within.
"What is the reason for anything?"
See the previous answer.
"Do you think there is no reason?"
See previous answer.
"Well if so then enjoy that depressing thought."
Those who know the answers, aren't depressed, only those who refuse to become educated, and stand on the only meaning they can find... based on the extremely myopic and limited information available to them. Kind of like searching for a meaning, in a store, with only one "meaning" product, that's religion. Take it or leave it, if you attempt to leave it, you will be threatened with hell.
"Think alot about why things are the way they are. Why is our sun the perfect direction from us to give us livable heat and coolness?"
You say, the "sun" is the perfect distance from the earth, and provides us livable heat and coolness? Why don't you go camping on the polar ice-caps, I'd dare say, you would die before the day ends. Its not the environment that allows humanity to survive, its humanities' ability to adapt to an ever-changing environment that is remarkable, don't sell out humanity's adaptation, in favor of some mediocre argument on the perfect solar system, its childish.
"Where did all this matter come from?"
What does "matter" have to do with meaning in your "life"? Why?
"How did it get wherever it is?"
What does the "location" of mater have to do with meaning in your "life"? Why?
"Who made it?
Why do you believe a "who" made the matter? What makes you believe matter was "made"? Where did you get these "questions" from?
"Answer me please? Will you help me out?"
Actually, the only one who can help you out, is you. You have to become educated, and once that happens, you will have more options in your obviously limited life to make choices from, until then, you don't have enough information to ask quality questions and its blazingly apparent. You have a one line answer, for every question in your life, if one were comparing meaning in life, its apparent your life has little "variety", in such a vast and changing Universe.
Jesus COMMANDS YOU to give to EVERYONE who asks.
So, may I please have ten dollars?
Anyway, thanks for illustrating that direct commands from your god-man are frequently re-interpreted by believers so as to avoid actually obeying those commands.
Since you won't obey and give a lousy ten bucks, give yourself a nice big self-congratulatory pat on the back.
yo dont know anything about being a christian or being a "true" christian whatever that may be.
may god help you all on judgment day when you face the fiery depth of hell.
and this whole website is BS and your all going to hell.
"yo dont know anything about being a christian or being a "true" christian whatever that may be."
Whatever that may be???
...ironic, ain't it, yo? LMAO!
Thanks.
From babe to maturity? No, I'm sorry...there ARE no "Christian infants". You cannot be a "True" Christian until you're at LEAST old enough to hear, speak, and understand one of the human languages..... 'else, you're brain cannot be washed properly.
Either way, sign me up. I can't resist a bargain like that.
I tried TM. It cost me $430. The place was nice and the food was good but some of the other guests were a bit loopy.
Then I tried Buddhism. That was great. Economical and terrific food. At that point I decided to go a bit more up-market to Zen which was truly excellent. Those people know how to put a garden together or what, eh? I especially loved the low-fat menu and the scintillating mind-game activities the recreation co-ordinators set up.
Judaism - well, I couldn't stay long. It was almost as expensive as US Evangelism although the music was a lot less "docile" and that was nice. Also the "judaists" were terrific networkers and I managed to get across Judaism through Hinduism and Zoroastrianism really cheaply after I was put on to the right people. Terrific trip. I have the photos around here somewhere...
But TRUE christianity for ten bucks!! Too good to refuse...
However, this plea has been here for over four years, and only a handful have responded as commanded by their God.
Perhaps I should rename the article to "Only Six True Christians."
Oh well. I guess my point was made.
Rev. Pasha
I'd also be willing to bet it was money that you conned out of your mindless sheep that you deceived and promised them everlasting life in exchange for their hard earned money.
Once a fool always a fool! Go away part from me you thief in the grass, saith the lard!!!!
Obeying Jesus's order to give to everyone who asks, is assinine. Obviously, that wasn't a very well thought out divine command.
Good job.
Oh well.
Anyway, you asked if there was any hope at all, or is it all pointless?
I'm guessing you are trying to suggest that life without your religion is pointless? Is that it? Because if it is, that's an outrageous statement.
My life is filled with hope and promise. I don't need the threat of an angry god to give my life meaning. I don't need threats of eternal torture in a place built by a demented, sadistic deity to find hope.
Here's the hope of Christianity: Convince a person that unimaginable horror awaits them after death, and then get them to sell their life in slavish religiosity to placate the fear.
We are all mortal. We all die. That's life on planet Earth.
People spend their lives striving to avoid pain and suffering. Since death is the absence of all pain and suffering, death is nothing to fear. However, a life wasted in mindless servitude to a false god, now that is something to fear. That is true hopelessness.
And that's why there are no true Christians. Because even Christians know the things Jesus said just don't make good sense.
For one moment forget "Christians" and go to the source of the underlying motivation for your request, for one moment ask yourself and all of us...Is there a true Christ? Is there that chance that there is a Christ, there is a love beyond our human capacity, a love that loves us beyond our hatred and anger? For everyone of us who are reading this, that is what we all really want to know. For deep inside I really don't care if there are any people who would meet the critical eyes of judgement as to whether or not I am a Christian. For I already know this one thing...I am a sinner. So it does not come as any shock to me that I am selfish and self motivated. Doing wrong to others. Preaching and yet not doing what I preach. I already know all these things. That is why I hope. That is my faith. That there is a Christ, the son of the living God and by grace I am saved. So I ask again...What if there were none of what you would deem "true christians", what if noone sends you a ten spot... The questions about Christians will be answered, for me it was answered long ago. I already knew that I was selfish and have a selfish nature, I already knew that no matter how I tried to live up to religion and all it's laws I would never be able to. That was my despair. So I read the word of God and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and hope dawned in my heart. No...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do this and that. I had to do nothing but believe. Nothing. Slavery? No, freedom to try and freedom to fail and freedom to believe I am forgiven for my failures. Freedom to know I AM A SINNER, freedom to believe I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE. What grace do you offer those who read this? We all know we are going to die and we all know life is painful. Yet the question of Christ is the same. Is there a Christ, the son of the living God, who died and gave his life, battled death, rose again, and loves us beyond religion, beyond sin, beyond life? Tell me what is the hope and promise of your life?
What is sin? Please define it in your understanding.
What is grace? Please define that, too, in your own words.
Finally, define what you mean by "hope?"
The reason I ask for your definitions is because it is impossible to discuss these topics without a common understanding of what the words actually mean to the people using them.
Now, it's good that you feel forgiven for your failures, whatever that means, exactly, but I feel pretty good about my life too. And I don't believe in a god. I don't see your point here.
You are right that people are selfish. That's called a survival instinct. And guess what! Christianity panders to that selfishness! People don't want to die. They selfishly want to survive, and Christianity makes a false promise of eternal life beyond the grave. It promises streets paved with gold. It promises many things that are impossible to document as being actually true.
Picture this: While many of your loved ones writhe in horrific agony in eternal torture, the Elect will live forever in selfish bliss.
Do you really think most Christians lavish their hard-earned cash into religious coffers out of philanthropic generosity? I don’t think so. I think most Christian giving is spurred on by either a guilt-laced sermon or the belief that by giving, they are laying up treasures in heaven. It’s nothing more than responding to the “avoidance of pain and promise of pleasure” trick. Either way, it's just selfishness being played out.
Now, something really unselfish to do, might be to give to all who ask, regardless of any hope of avoiding something painful or of gaining any eternal advantage.
Yes, people are selfish, and Christianity plays right into that reality.
You assume I am attempting to direct people into some sort of system hope finding? Again, I still need to know what you mean by hope. I also wonder why you feel so hopeless. I think life is full of promise. Life is fun. Feeling that life is somehow hopeless, or that people need religion to fill their lives, well, that can’t be a pleasant feeling. My condolences to you.
Anyway, pointing people in one direction, or telling them what to think about everything is not what this site is about. That’s what Christianity is about – telling people what to think. This site is not about directing people to an alternative religion, philosophy, or whatever. This site is about helping people find other people who have realized, or are coming to realize, that Christianity is bunk. Escaping a mind-control cult is difficult and painful. It’s good to know you’re not alone.
Why don't you read the site disclaimer and my testimony? The links to those two articles are on every single page. That would answer many of your questions.
....is there evidence beyond your presuppostional biblio-babble?
Grace. Grace is given and not earned. Grace is free, cannot be bought or sold, is undeserved. Grace is what I recieved from Christ after I tried religion.
You see I tried religion. I found all of the things that have made you so angry and possibly filled you with such contempt that you needed an outlet for your anger and so created this website. If that is not the case than forgive my presumption please.
I have heard and seen the TV evangelists with their "give and it will be given unto you" schemes. I too was sickened and disillusioned. I have seen their "toll-free" numbers to recieve donations and their "pay" numbers for prayer requests. I attended church and heard the "come as you are" and then was told...not to wear shorts, not to wear jeans, not to smoke, not to dance, not to drink, etc...and so on. I have heard the Hell fire sermons and I have seen the hate crimes against abortion centers and homosexuals. I have been accosted by the church members outside of Walmart wanting to sell me something so their kids could go to camp and I too have thought, "if your God is so great, what are you asking me for money for...ask you God, surely he has five dollars." I have thought many times that "those Christians" got it all backwards...they are suppose to give to the world, not stand as beggers with their hands out all the time. I have read the old testament and wondered of a God who would bring war and suffering.
So you see, you and I are not so different. We both searched for answers and arrived at different conclusions.
As for me, I arrived choosing to hope that there is a point and a purpose to my life beyond this moment and the pleasure of the moment. I wanted to choose a life that fills me with the hope that there is a goodness and a love. To me life seems very pointless without love. So I pressed on, on beyond the religion, beyond the hypocrisy, beyond the disillusionment, beyond the anger and bitterness, beyond CHISTIANS. Beyond people. People fail. Every single one of us. No person can bring salvation to me. I CHOSE to believe in Christ, the son of the living God and in him I put my trust.
I came across your sight by accident and "a plea to true Christians" caught my eye. I believe that you knew it would. I believe that you want a chance to say to those of us who believe in Christ all the things that lay in your heart and eat away with at you with a deep bitterness. Perhaps you will believe me when I say, "I felt the same way", probably worse. Then I asked myself the question that I asked you...Forget the people, forget the do's and don'ts...all I want to know is...Is there a Christ?
Does it make sense? No. Is there any fact of his deity? No. Does it defy logic, education, reason? Yes. That is my definition of hope.
My reason for responding to you was simple...I wanted to know how you arrived at your journey with a different answer than I. Do I have a need to prove to you that my faith is right and yours is wrong. No. I am a nobody. A housewife with no education beyond high school, no glorious income, no title, nothing impressive. I am not a debater, I have no fancy words, or manipulative charisma, on the whole of things I am a speck. In this world and society, that makes me pretty much without value or worth. My hope is in Christ. For you see, I am nothing to the Christians or the non-Christians. Yet,when Christians say I am not worthy, Christ says I have worth to him. When the world says I have no value and no purpose, Christ says I do. And that is what all of us want. Whether we are rich or poor. Important or unknown. Smart and savy with words or uneducated. It is why you reached out with this website...each of us what to feel like we are not alone, each of us want to feel like we are heard and that what we have to say is important. Otherwise you and I would not be conversing back and forth.
That brings me back to what I believe is sin. Sin to me would not be sin to you. Sin for me is taking what I recieved freely (grace and acceptance) and yet not extending it to you. The grace of Christ came into my life and told me something my heart longed to hear. That my hurt, pain, life, love, and meaning were important to Christ.
That I was accepted as I am. Not by people, people can never do that. By Christ.
That is why I responded to your site. I do not wish to presuade you or change you. Perhaps it was the mystery of such different conclusions to what might possibly be the same journey. I wanted to know of your hope and your faith. Perhaps it is naive, but is it not true, that all of us believe in something?
Yet I have enjoyed talking with you. I enjoy your website and the encouragement you give all of us to speak on behalf of our faiths. It is a good thing and I hope it continues.
You have arrived at the conclusion that there is no God. I will offer you no debate. For if the word of God and the story of Christ's life and love does not convince you, well than who am I that I could say or do more than these?
I truly am not a very good debater. I have no facts, and although I do know scriptures, you also know them, probably more so than I, so it would do no good and profit no one for you and I to volley back and forth. So having asked my question and having recieved my answer, there seems little left for us to say. I have no wish to argue or debate.
If I have offended you, it was without intent. I encourage you to continue for it is without a doubt a constructive way for all of us to speak of our faiths.
I remained anonymous because that truly is what I am. My name matters little and would only be a name to you. Yet should we talk again sometime, I ask that you call me...Friend.
One more question for you to consider. Christianity teaches that all those who reject Christiany's plea and madate to believe, are threatened with eternal torment in a sadistic chamber of everlasting imprisonment.
Can you honestly say that in your short life you've committed sinful crimes of such magnitude that would justify an eternity of torment? If so, what exactly are those "sins" you've committed that justice would only be served by your eternal punishment?
Religion makes people feel good, feel signficant, feel loved. If it makes you feel good, then by all means, feel away. I left religion because feelings are secondary to truth and reality to me. Reality may not be as romantic, but I prefer reality, regardless.
I sincerely believed in Santa for the first five years of my life. It was great fantasy. But alas, it was a falsehood.
I would agree with your definition of sin. I do not practice any of those things you've mentioned. However, that is not the Christian definition of sin. In Christianity, sin is the breaking of the law of God. If you do any work on the Sabbath, you are a sinner, and will suffer the eternal consequences of your disobedience. Since your God commands you to give to all who ask of you, then your disobedience is a sin.
So again, I'll ask, may I please have ten dollars.
Your refusal to obey your favorite god either makes you a sinner, or an unbeliever. And in truth, you too are an unbeliever. You do not believe in any of the thousands of gods worshipped by people throughout history, except for one. I simply do not believe in that god either. I believe in one less god than you. In fact, the only reason I do not believe in that god, is exactly the same reason I do not believe in any of the other gods. When you figure out why you don't believe in any of those other gods, then you'll understand why someone like me rejects belief in your god.
I guess you're right. We are more alike than we know.
My flock as you call them do not support me. I enjoy a strong middle-class income as a manager and investor. And belittling God will not make me mad, God does not need us to defend Him.
Webmaster, I enjoy this site for laughs... thank you again.
Amazing how much Rev. Pasha knows what a gods' needs are, its almost like he's speaking on a deity's behalf with equal knowledge. Perhaps, Rev. Pasha has been god too long.
Judgement and justice are not mine to decide. I have a distorted veiw of both. I will give you an example...
There is a young child and every day and every night he suffers sexual, emotional, and physical abuse at the hands of his father. He crys but no one hears. He dies a little inside as each shread of his dignity and humanity is stripped away.
Later, another child crys, the same abuse, the same pain. This time someone hears. The abuser is brought to "justice". He is sentenced to prison and every one feels vindicated.
The abuser is the first child. The child no one heard. The child who spent all of his young life in a prison you and I can not imagine.
Was justice served?
Judgement and justice. I am not in the position to deliver either. So, in answer to your question, only a diety that has the entire picture, that knows the desire and motivation of my heart, that has the capacity for true justice and true love can decide that. This I know seems very wrong and very unfair to some. To me it is a comfort. To know I can trust and trust fully the Christ who loves me, that he will not be swayed by my crys of vengence or bitterness, but rather do according to the motives of others hearts.
Instead of fear, I now have peace. For you see, I have children and family I love, in their lives they will hurt people and do wrong to others, just as I do, if I relied on my sense of justice, then some time I may exact vengence on someone who has hurt me, that vengence would then become the standard of punishment and should one I love ever commit the same wrong...In condemning my adversary I have condemned them.
A Christ who brings judgement and justice does not bring me fear but peace.
Grace covers law. We cannot live by both. Law is a "do it yourself and fail" method. Grace is a "I cannot do it myself, I rely on your grace".
Law brings strife and self righteousness. Look at the churches. Can anyone even begin to name the different denominations? Each believing and each claiming they and they alone have the truth and the right way. Each acting arogantly, pointing fingers and condemning and judging others in matters they are not qualified to judge.
Grace brings peace. Grace says "I am not qualified to judge you", so I will forgive you. Grace says, "You have your ways and your battles, I have mine, they are different but may each of our methods and views have the result of peace."
Grace is not offended when someone holds a different belief and different view. Grace accepts when someone challenges their faith as an opportunity to give an account for their faith and faith is strenghtened.
Grace does not become better than others, but remembers always that it was grace and grace alone that helped them to meet the challenges and overcome those challenges.
Grace is not arrogant.
Have you ever met a reformed smoker? Most annoying. They believe that since they quit, everyone should quit. Not only should they quit, they should quit in exactly the way the reformed smoker quit.
Gone and forgotten are the days that they themselves were addicted to cigerettes. Gone and forgotten are the days when they bit every ones heads off and were consumed with their need for a cigerette.
For now they are stronger. They are better than those weak people who can't give up cigerettes.
This is why faith in a just Christ brings me peace. The justice of man is what brings me fear.
Let me be judged by one who loves me enough to give his most precious son in my stead...than by man.
When I look at some of the responses this website has brought it only validates my faith.
Those with titles of ministers, reverends, christians, non-believers and believers alike. I am amazed at some of the things people will say to others who do not share their belief. I am appalled at the things people say to you and try to stamp God's name on it. Amazed and appalled, but the one thing I am not...is shocked.
Yet you are right in saying, you and I are alike. For we are. We just have different viewpoints. Yet what we might agree upon could be greater than what we disagree upon. Yet I would never know these things if I set myself up as jury and judge.
You are also right in saying I AM a Sinner! For I am, have been and always will be. This one thing, I never want to forget.
For all the others who believe in Christ...I urge you to not forget. Were it not for grace, you would have no faith. Were it not for faith, you would have no grace.
To you, my friend and I call you friend because that it what I would like to believe we can be, I will say ...
Yes I am a sinner. Yet in faith, I believe I am a sinner saved by grace.
No, I do not believe in the other Gods, for I have worshipped and served them all and found no peace and no purpose.
Yet in saying I am an unbeliever, in that matter you have made an error...for I believe very much in Jesus Christ the son of the Living God and his love for me.
Again I encourage you for what you are doing with your website. It is a good thing.
I look forward to your reply and your request for my ten dollars.
Friend.
I do not read your website for laughs, I read it because I am interested in what the result of your search for one true Christian will bring you. I hope with all my heart that your search for one is answered. Yet I think perhaps you chose the wrong lure in your fishing expedition. The kind of fish you seek...will only bite if you lure them with a chance to love.
Just so you will know that your response has not angered me or annoyed me I want you to know this.
I live on a very limited and tight budget. My budget no longer will allow me the luxury of internet service, once this bill is paid, I am requesting it to be shut off. So if you should reply and I do not answer...I am not ignoring you, I just simply cannot read your site for I do not have it. This is why I encourage you...continue your search and may it be rewarded.
However, I will state this: For justice to be served, the punishment must fit the crime. This is a maxim that underlies the modern justice system.
No matter what "sin" a person might commit, it can only be a temporal "sin." In other words, we can only commit acts that are mortal, temporary, and non-eternal. I sincerely doubt you have committed anything worthy of an eternity of torture. Even the most heinous criminals, when caught, are not tortured for their crimes — not in civilized society. Criminals may earn the death penalty, but torture is deemed inhumane. How much more inhumane would be everlasting torture? To even consider torturing another human being is considered a crime, no matter what the person may be believed guilty of. Abu Ghraib comes immediately to mind.
Hell is not a reformation program. Those who are sent there by your loving god are never released. There is no parole. There is no death. There is no chance of paying the debt to society, or to whomever, ever. Hell is eternal retributive punishment, and nothing more. Many of your loved ones will spend not 1,000, not 100,000, not 1,000,000,000 years in hell, they will reside there, tortured, in agony, forever and ever and ever. Hell does not embody a progressive view of justice. Hell is a sadistic, bronze-age concept of justice. It is savage.
Can you even think of one time when torture is the right thing to do?
Your god and his hell are the products of primitive, savage minds. Fortunately for us, we have evolved a better sense of justice. Your god is still living in the dark ages.
The only reason you are convinced you are a terrible sinner, is because you were taught you are a terrible sinner, deserving of everlasting punishment, by a simplistic religion. Had you never been taught this concept, you would never have thought of it.
Your devotion to this unmerciful deity is sincere, I'm sure. I'm equally sure you've been deceived.
The way Christianity works is that it creates a need in people by convincing people of their relative worthlessness without the religion. Then it sells the "worthless" people a product that supposedly gives people worth. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. Perhaps he's right. Maybe the old adage "Buyer Beware" is apropos.
Peace.
Right, and if it were not for the belief in your deity, both "grace" and "faith" would be unnecessary. The argument is completely circular. You are presupposing the former in order to get/have the latter.
Anony: "I live on a very limited and tight budget. My budget no longer will allow me the luxury of internet service, once this bill is paid, I am requesting it to be shut off."
Pray.
Anony: "This is why I encourage you...continue your search and may it be rewarded."
To a skeptic/rationalist the search is never really over. We're just waiting on the evidence, and when/if it comes?... then most of us would HAPPY to adjust our world-views, accordingly. It is the method by which the search is conducted that brings "truth".
The abuser is the first child. The child no one heard. The child who spent all of his young life in a prison you and I can not imagine.
Was justice served?"
Morals and Ethics for $500. If you truly believe what you have written, you don't follow the bible. The bible, condemns homosexual behavior, and it is very likely the child you describe will carry on their sexual programming. There is "no disctinction" in the bible, for the ifs and buts of sexuality.
The scenario you provided, has a resonating ring... What you describe as a life that someone can't imagine, is exactly the life "priests" were living, as they molested and raped little boys - as gods' ambassador - else god would have stepped in.
By the way, you suggest the views of humanity are distorted, thus you can't find nor determine judgement or justice. However, you use your personally distorted view, to state that a perfect deity exists, that has the capability to provide perfect judgement and justice.
Curious... if you aren't capable of knowing how to judge the actions of people, and pass/make judgement calls... how is it possible for you to protect an abused child if you become aware of one? Doesn't that require you to pass judgement, and intervene by protection (justice).
I'll leave it there, it appears you spent at least a little effort attempting to reply honestly. By the way, many public libraries have wireless internet access for those with laptops that have Wi-Fi 802.11a/b/g wireless Ethernet cards. If you don't have a compliant laptop, there are library PCs that have access as well. Friend.
Glad I don't have to use my imagination to create images of endless torture, with no god to hear the screams. But, obviously, god didn't hear the screams and cries of the little child in the scenario either, its all gods' will.
If you are so able, then you render justice, for I will not.
Vindicate: "To get revenge for; avenge."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vindicate
How do you know your abuser will be "punished", and you will receive your revenge? Or, is that your gods' revenge? Either way, someone is speaking on a gods' behalf, from a distorted perspective.
And, again, isn't your god the one that allowed your abuser to be sexually assaulted without vindication as a little child?
Where was god in all of this abuse? Would you call your abuse, "punishment" for something you did?
Would you send your abuser to eternal hell for his actions? If not, where is your revenge? Does god, give second prize punishments for those who don't do enough to make it into hell, but aren't the most chaste of individuals? The mormons believe in levels of heaven, for just that scenario. Other christian denominations, don't have levels of heaven, its binary... you're either on fire for god, or on fire for Satan, either way, there is no luke warm middle.
Anonymous: "Perhaps you will be able to understand now, perhaps not. My abuser was once like me...my abuser the one who could most understand my pain, the one who endured the same. Victim and abuser."
I think I have a solid grasp of your situation, from a "knowledge" perspective, based on what you have provided... I will never fully understand your particular experience, that's yours. Your experience "means" something to you, something you are supposed to explore and come to terms with.
You are now projecting yourself onto your abuser, and seeing a reflection... its a mirage. You are not them, and they are not you.
Anonymous: "If you are so able, then you render justice, for I will not."
Justice: "The administering of deserved punishment or reward."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=justice
Justice is the action/administering of deserved punishment or reward in regard to a morally/legally founded crime.
-If you forgave your abuser... you passed judgement.
-If you didn't forgive your abuser... you passed judgement.
-If you chose not to turn them in to law enforcement, you passed judgement.
-If you chose to turn them in to the authorities, you passed judgement.
You judged your abusers actions, as "wrong", and acted upon your instincts... you... made a judgement call. Your "judgement" call, placed that abuser to be subject to the "justice" system, thus, you judged, and handed over your abuser to a human law enforcement element for execution of justice.
If you can't accept that you passed judgement, and subsequently turned your abuser over to authorities... then you are confused.
Do you now, after the fact, condemn the actions of your abuser? If you can't make that judgement call... you will be easy pray for abusers your entire life... if that's the case, I can only hope you seek counseling.
I don't know if you are attempting to set up a case for a secondary drive by troll, i.e., establishing the foundation for a moral relativism argument, but... I'll go out on a limb and speak cordially until a true christian shows up on the scene and condemns us both to hell.
Seriously... You have moved past condemnation of the person, but you at some point have to come to conscious terms with how you feel about the actions of your abuser.
There's nothing wrong with condemning the "actions" of a person. Also, I believe we have the capacity/potential to learn from our past. Religions state that we are sinful, and can't escape our sinful natures... our abuse is going to happen anyway, and there's nothing we can do about it - god will make it right. A truly defeatist attitude.
If you have more you would like to talk about, feel free to throw it out there, I have nothing but time. Just out of curiosity, can you please tell me, how old a girl should be before she gets married? Indulge me.
Has anyone ever pondered where exactly did the source of those words come from?
Was everyone born with those words already placed in their minds?
NO!!
The root source of those emotional words are from where?? The Bible!
Has anyone ever pondred where the Bible came from???
From overseas!!!!
The Bible is not an original product of American culture!!
The Bible was introduced by tje Europeans fleeing religious persecution!!!
Yet they persecuted the American Indians by killing them, but that was Ok, saith the Lord!!!
How come if the christains were fleeing persecution why could they not talk the Indians into their wonderful so easy to believe religion???
Because it's all a christian
lie!!!
Christians have always played the persecution card to get what they want, yet so many stayed over in Europoe to be constantly persecuted???
Before 1492, there were no words used like hope, faith, persecution, Jesus, sin, etc.
Those useless manipulation words were brought over here to America via a ship by a Christian.
The Bible and all it's words and sentences, are used only for manipulation and control and to conquer other lands!!!
You make believe Christians need to wake up from your mental fantasy.
"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7).
God wants us to give happily, and it is our choice... (Another aspect of free will) as to how to distribute that charity. The Bible says many things which may be interpreted to suit any person’s individual expectations or ideals. That is why we have free will, the right to choose Him, and how we wish to show that faith… or in your case not.
The behavior of others is not my burden, on judgment day God alone will judge me and no one else… I am accountable to the king, or president in my case as the bible decrees. I am not to blame for the behavior of people who were born before me… any more than you are Stanley. Regardless of beliefs, no man can be blamed for what he himself cannot control.
Stanley you really need to study religious history, if you are going to hate something at least have your facts straight. Yes Christianity came from Europe and Africa, but the Native American people were not atheists. The NA held to a Great Spirit, and minor god/esses aplenty, as did almost every other tribe/faction/race of man on the planet dating back since the time of cave paintings… circa 30,000 BC… belief in god/s is not the new kid on the block… atheism is.
Anon, the bible and other books of ancient times say the same thing about taking snuff and drinking and the like, simply don’t let it control you… or as the bible says everything in moderation. As for what is real and what is not… let’s say a farmer thousands of years before Christ unearthed a t-rex skull… not knowing what we now do thanks to science - he would have integrated it into his local mythos… as a dragon perhaps, an evil being, or in ancient Chin, a dragon spirit of good… the moment where scientific fact meets legend or fiction.
I am not a hardnosed ‘fundy’ as many like to label Christians, I admit there is much I do not know, but looking for the answers is my life’s work. For me, it stands that God is real and the bible a strong historical text, heh yet much of it - by it’s own admission, is allegory… stories told for instruction. Since much of it is being proven by science, while other points are disproved, who can say. Regardless of god/s existence the ten commandments are good moral rules, a reasonable standard in order to maintain civilization.
I believe because if there is nothing to believe in, if this is the be all and end all, what are we here for? what is the purpose of creating something so beautiful, so vibrant if not for something better after?
I believe because history has proven time and again that what we know or think we know is not everything, that events have taken place that support the bible, not the other way around as some argue
It is our greatest gift that we question and decide for ourselves, it is in our nature to argue and question, the bible says he should be humble as sheep, not follow like dumb sheep.
I spent a life time questioning, searching and finding out for myself what is real and what is not, God exists not because man created him, but created a belief system around him that they feel fits him, that is true faith.
Finding the truth beneath the 'faith', that is true joy.
When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible. I witnessed the greatness of man in the depths of his trials and I saw and felt the majesty of a being so incredible that it touches you in a place reserved for that purpose, that is what being small is beneath a sky and a faith so large we cant understand it.
To understand it is to break heaven.
If that makes me a Christian, so be it.
How eruditious, now, can you explain the difference between the majority of "all" previous gods in history, and the christian god? I am sure you are well versed, in these differences. Once you do that, come back and lets talk about which spiritual ideaology is the new kid on the block, there bubba.
Atheism, is older than christianity, and its unique god concept, vis a vis the Roman Emperor Constantine I and a gov't sponsored clergy.
That aside, christianity "is" the genesis for the "bloodiest" of "all" religions, even to this day. Let me know, when you have educated yourself on your own religion.
"Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born and whence came this creation? The gods were born after this world's creation. Then, who can know from whence it has arisen? None know whence creation has arisen and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heaven, he only knows, or happily, he may know not".
Around 500 BC, Buddhism, inspired by the Rig-Veda, became a theistic philosophy. (Believing is god/s and spirits)
'1000 BC' ... is hardly pre-Judean, and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around, thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid. And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events.
As for difference between Christianity and others, that is easy, Christianity is the god mythos I have chosen as best for me. Basically they all share common elements such as one creator god, or 'father', a lesser god who risks his immortality to make life better for humans… Jesus or Prometheus - and a malevolent god/ess who seeks to destroy all that the father had made… such as Loki and Baphomet. It becomes a matter of eeny-meeny-miny-moe… and there are precious few peoples in history who have not picked one.
You can find reasons to hate anything Anon. you use harsh definitives as if that vindicates your claim… it only makes me chuckle. Any race, religion or government can be blamed for something and I am sure you fit into one of them, just as we all do… so finger pointing is senseless, if not childish. One of my great uncles built the furnaces for German death camps, does that mean I owe every Jew I meet an apology? No… because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.
Most of us would agree, that what we have here is beautiful, and its what we make it for the most part as humanity.
You need to go to a christian web site, and ask them why a god who makes such a beautiful universe, to include humanity, would make such a deplorable hell, to torture his beautiful creation for eternity. Let me know, if you get an answer, thanks.
First of all, Judean, is not "christian", there was no "Christ" in Judaism. The Tanakh, with its Torah "never" mentions a christ, Jesus, etc. If you don't agree, here's a link to a Rabbi...
Rev. Pasha: "...and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around,"
Written language? You're kidding, here, ask a PhD what the oldest written form of language is...
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/ask-ling/oldest.html
This year is 2006, subtract 6,000 years, and you are suggesting the bible, specifically the Old Testament, was written around 4,006-BCE.
Archeological evidence suggests around 3200-BCE, not as you suggest 4,006-BCE there's almost a thousand year difference there, bud.
"According to historians, the Old Testament was composed between the 5th century BC and the 2nd century BC, though parts of it, such as the Torah, and Song of Deborah (Judges 5), date back much earlier."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
Rev. Pasha: "...thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid."
Again, Judaic followers were not "like minded" with those of the first christians, read some history, its why there were was great persecution.
Christianity wasn't established until Constantine I, created a council to establish Christianity as a state religion. That is when it was officially established. If a Christian wants to claim that Jesus' name was used to establish a Christian type following, then the earliest you are going to find, is in the epistles of Paul, and they date mid-first century CE, so... when did Atheism start up? As you said, much earlier than mid-first century BCE.
There are Atheistic attributes of belief, that pre-exist 5th Century BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Much earlier, than Christianity, in its most wild of dreams. Atheists didn't change their views, everyone else just changed the names of the gods, christianity being one who chose YHWH over El. Of course, you know this, its it the bible, right.
Rev. Pasha: "And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events."
"Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of belief in a deity or deities."
The absence of belief, doesn't necessarily mean "denying" the existence, as you stated... some don't care to "accept" the belief, period. That's not denying, that's not acceptance, I know... its makes sense... just let it sink in for a while.
You have represented well, the level of knowledge you hold, from which you draw your beliefs. I could sit here all day, and attempt to educate you, but... it would mean more, if you did it on your own.
And, by the way, you never replied to the difference between YHWH and all other gods before its inception as the new god over the Judean god El.
May I please have $10.00 Mr. Pasha? Please?
You can use the PayPal button.
Thanks.
www.jewsforjudaism.org
I'm sure you are open minded enough to discuss your religious beliefs, with a Rabbi... right.
WM: T-Rex is not the new kid on the block, humanity is. Or better: Neanderthal Man is not the new kind on the block, we are.
Or maybe this: Belief in RA is not the new kid on the block, Christianity is.
Sunday School logics is funny.
My great grandmother, "Eve", took a bite of an apple because she was tempted by a talking snake, does that mean I owe every god I never meet an apology? No...because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.
I think people need religion and beliefs to acquire some form of recognition and entitlement, for example you Rev. Pasha I presume, were not born with the prefix Rev. on your birth certificate, now were you, hmmmm?
But by prescribing to a religion or belief, this allows you to be recognized somewhere in your religious sect and other esteemed places in society, ya?
People will boldly boast, even when not asked, "I am a Christian!" Why? Because they are looking for some form of recognition and entitlement from other people, and that society has been brainwashed to believe that to claim a religious title it is to be viewed as admirable.
There is something lacking in one's life when they have to cling on to self-acclaimed religious titles.
You sir, have found out that by claiming a religious title, people will bend and sway to your every command, you get your much desired respect that you would not normally get, just out of their Bible endorsed fear, yet by your claiming a self-elected title you have found out people will bow down to you and give you extra recognition that you would not normally receive, you have found that by claiming a religious title, people will go out of their way just to appease the Rev. Pasha.
If being a "True Christian" has any real meanings to anyone, Jesus said to deny yourself, meaning putting yourself last, yet you've self-elected yourself to a position with a religious title, you've jumped ahead of the line by putting yourself first, this alone shows the total hypocrisy in all religious institutions.
Maybe I'm wrong and that God and Jesus and all the heavenly angels made a consensus one day to vote you into Earthly high counsel, but for some reason according to my own built-in peripheral senses, I have a feeling that you've elected your own self to religious high counsel.
To deny this means, there is no truth in the Rev. Pasha!
I'm not spewing hatred, Christians view Truth as hatred, because Truth goes against their own personal religious agenda.
So, without a God, human life has no meaning? Is that the point here? Okay, so that means humans need a god to give their lives meaning. Right? Only by believing in a god, do people acuqire meaning, and without such a god, life is meaningless?
Well, then what gives God's life meaning? If you say that HIS life has intrinsic meaning, then you're admitting that there is the possiblity of life with inherent meaning. If a god can be assumed to have meaning without acquiring it from outside of itself, then why would you assume that human life is incapable of having instrinsic meaning and worth?
Are you following me here? Why do think human life is worthless without a god, yet has worth with a god? Can you explain where that thought comes from?
Just Me: "When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible."
WM: WOW! I've got to see the pictures! Send them to me, and I'll post them right here.
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