God's Extremely Complex Plan of Salvation
by John Burton, April 2002
My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life.Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity, or for at least a few years, months, days, or hours, depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
God says in the Bible that in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again (John 3:7).
You can be saved today. How? Pay close and careful attention, because if you make one little mistake along the way and end up deviating even slightly from the requisite straight and narrow path to salvation, you will burn in Hell forever. Fair enough? Before I continue citing Bible verses, it would be wise for me to consider whether you the reader, recognize that the Bible, which contains the verse above, is the Word of God......or that God even exists. Let us therefore begin at the beginning.
You will need to consider each question, concept, or issue listed below and identify or devise an explanation which is reasonable and which reaches the correct conclusion. (I'm sure you know what the correct conclusions are.)
1: God
1.1: The most fundamental notion of God is that "god" is simply the term we use to describe some force, process, effect (or possibly a being) which is in some way linked to or responsible for the existence and nature of the cosmos. Must such a god exist? Can such a god exist? (We might call this god a "metaphysical" god.)
1.2: Is the idea that "God created the universe" internally contradictory?
1.3: If we assume or know that a metaphysical god exists (or existed at one time so that the universe could be created), how are we then justified in extending this.
1.4: Why is there no evidence for the existence of souls?
1.5: Why is there no evidence for immortality?
1.6: How can an all-good God create or coexist with evil?
1.7: How can a just and merciful God create or allow pointless or random suffering?
1.8: Why can't God be perceived, measured, or detected?
1.9: Why doesn't God do anything which is clearly distinguishable from a delusion on the part of one or more believers? Why are God's objective characteristics identical to those of something that does not exist?
1.10: How can the reasonableness and prevalence of nonbelief coexist in the same universe with a just and loving God?
2: Churches
2.1: Does the existence of a personal God necessitate a church? Why can't an individual human being communicate directly with God to ascertain God's existence, nature, and will, thus preventing the encroachment of any deceptions perpetrated, willfully or otherwise, by other people or organizations who claim to represent God or carry God's message?
2.2: If someone does communicate one-on-one with God as just noted, why should the knowledge they obtain by such a process be regarded as less valid than some other collection of spiritual knowledge?
2.3: If a church is necessary, how do we know which one, if any, accords with God's will? How do we know that Christianity is such
a church? On what basis can we examine and reject all competing faiths, including but not limited to: Babi/Baha'i, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism? Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
2.4: If Christianity is the true church of God, how do we know that conservative Protestantism is the only true branch of the true church of God? How can we reject all competing churches which call themselves Christian, including but not limited to: Catholic; Orthodox, Eastern Christian; African indigenous sects (AICs); Reformed, Presbyterian, Congregational, United; Methodist; Anglican; Lutheran; Jehovah's Witnesses; Adventist; Latter Day Saints (Mormon); Apostolic, New Apostolic; Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement"); New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.); Brethren (incl. Plymouth); Mennonite; Friends (Quakers), etc.?
Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
2.5: How do we know that Fundamentalism is the only true subbranch of the true branch of the true church of God? How can we reject all "non-Fundamentalist" sects within our own branch of Christianity, including but not limited to: Born-Again, Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Charismatic? Moreover, how can we distinguish among these various groups and our own in order to properly define our own group and constantly monitor it for compliance with God's Truth? Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
3: The Bible
3.1: There is nothing in the Old Testament which foretells or requires any of the substantial concepts of the New. (Not in the OT: personal salvation, a "heavenly hope", the need to replace the system of obedience to the Law.)
3.2: Morality: No objective moral system in the Bible.
3.3: Contradictions: Hundreds of minor (Babylon: Ezra 2:41 vs Neh 7:44), intermediate (Alcohol: Pr 20:1; Dn 1:8 vs. Jg 9:13; Ps 104:15; Pr 31:6-9; Centurion: Mt 8:5-9 vs. Lk 7:1-7), and major (Sin: 1Jn 1:8 vs. 1Jn 3:6-9; 5:18; Faith and Works: Eph 2:8-9 vs. Jn 5:29; 1Jn 2:4) ones .
3.4: Atrocities (Divinely mandated mass-murder and rape: Num 31:17-18; Children cursed by God and mauled or killed for teasing: 2 Ki 2:23-24). 3.5: Failed prophecies, both minor (Tyre: Ezek 26:14-21; 27:36 vs. Mk 7:24 and history) and major (End times were imminent: 1Pe 4:7; Mt 16:27-28; Mk 9:1; Mk 13:30; Lk 9:27; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phil 4:5; 1Th 4:17; Heb 1:2; Heb 10:37; James 5:8; 1Jn 2:18; Rev 1:1,3; 3:11, 22:7; 22;12).
3.6: Incoherent or inexplicable concepts (the Trinity, atonement, the need for and purpose of eternal damnation).
4: Doctrine, Methods, Practices, and General Concerns
4.1: Christians generally admit that the Bible contains "trivial" errors, such as copyists' errors. Why? Moreover, how do we know that there are not major errors as well?
4.2: Christians often ignore some of the Bible's clear and simpleteachings (Materialism: Mat 6:19, 25, 34).
4.3: Christians declare that verses do not mean what they plainly say, in spite of the fact that there is nothing in the text to justify it.
4.4: Some Christians indoctrinate their children, rather than teaching them how to think and how to seek and consider diverse ideas, so that they can decide about the truth for themselves.
4.5: Why should a thoughtful, conscientious, truth-seeking person be condemned to burn forever in hell for seeking to avoid the error of accepting what appears very clearly to be a fraudulent and delusional claim based on groundless ancient superstitions?
4.6: God allegedly "loves" those who are burning in hell. How would their situation be different if God hated them?
4.7: Even if the Bible is true, how does this make the "believe or burn" message acceptable? How can it be moral or just to obey
based upon threats, even if one is certain that the threat is real?
5: Getting Saved, Step-by-Step
If you have been able to resolve any difficulties arising from the preceding issues, you have accepted the ideas of fundamentalist Biblical Christianity, and are prepared for the final phase: actually getting saved. The following steps have been documented elsewhere, and are presented here with only some brief comments:
5.1: You must be born again (as already noted). This simply means that you must be saved, that you can and must know you are going to heaven.
5.2: You must realize that you are a sinner, and that you will still be a sinner after you are saved (contrary to what the Bible actually says; see "Sin", section 3.3).
5.3: You must understand Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus (although we still possess them, since we remain sinners) and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie (as long as you ignore 1Ki 22:33; 2Chr 18:22; Jer 20:7; Ezek 14:9; 2Th 2:11). Are you paying attention? We cannot understand Jesus' atoning sacrifice, but you must understand it.
5.4: You must repent.
5.5: You must believe that Jesus was resurrected, although there is no corroborating evidence for this claim, and the Biblical details concerning it are contradictory.
5.6: You must believe that your salvation occurs because of faith, and not by good works, although, as already noted ("Faith and Works", 3.3), some Bible verses contradict this, or describe additional or alternative requirements.
Once saved, you should lead the life of a good Christian, although this is not essential to salvation itself, since you cannot lose your salvation (unless you believe Heb 6:4-6 or 2Pe 2:20-21). After you are saved, you should be baptized, then unite with a Bible-believing church. Pray, read the Bible, and witness to others. Oh, and of course, pay your tithing. (God is often short on cash.)
Your Bible-believing church will no doubt require various behaviors. It's not prefectly clear just how much you can deviate from these requirements. Some deviations are probably not serious. If you smoke but believe it's wrong and are trying to quit, you are probably OK. Some deviations are of course egregious, and will result in your damnation. For instance, believing you are saved by works. (Your Bible-believing church would never let you join in such a case, since you could not be saved.) What if you believe it's acceptable to dance, drink in moderation, listen to rock, country, or jazz music, wear pants (this applies to women only), or wear long hair (men only)?
What if you believe in and have carried out all of the steps above, but you also believe, for example, that you must be baptized to be saved? Play it safe and reject all of these things. Why take a chance? If you are wrong, you will burn in hell. (Of course, if I am wrong, I will burn in hell, along with those I convinced, but don't think about that.)
This tract is patterned after the ubiquitous "God's Simple Plan of Salvation" tract often distributed by Christian fundamentalists. (An
internet search for this phrase using Google returns 1260 hits as of this writing.) The tract was written in 1933 by Gaylord Ford Porter, who died in 1976. If you are not a fundamentalist, you will find that only some of this material applies to you. As to the intent of this tract, I think that it should be clear from the content.
Please realize that the manner in which issues have been raised is intended to be neither rigorous not comprehensive. This is not a philosophical treatise. In closing, I encourage you to switch on your brain and think about this stuff. Thank you for your attention.
"Mystery is essential to the impostor. Above everything else, the charlatan must avoid straightforward reasoning and simplicity of expression: too clear and direct a light would quickly destroy the spell he exerts, through eloquent ambiguity, over his victims. In all ages, the voice of the humbug has exercised a peculiar fascination -- it is his chief weapon. But though he has to speak and write continuously, his announcements are best couched in indefinite phrases, opaque and susceptible of many interpretations, like the words of Subtle, the alchemist in Ben Jonson's play of that name." [Grete de Francesco (translated from the German by Miriam Beard -- Yale University Press, 1939)]
My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life.Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity, or for at least a few years, months, days, or hours, depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
God says in the Bible that in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again (John 3:7).You can be saved today. How? Pay close and careful attention, because if you make one little mistake along the way and end up deviating even slightly from the requisite straight and narrow path to salvation, you will burn in Hell forever. Fair enough? Before I continue citing Bible verses, it would be wise for me to consider whether you the reader, recognize that the Bible, which contains the verse above, is the Word of God......or that God even exists. Let us therefore begin at the beginning.
You will need to consider each question, concept, or issue listed below and identify or devise an explanation which is reasonable and which reaches the correct conclusion. (I'm sure you know what the correct conclusions are.)
1: God
1.1: The most fundamental notion of God is that "god" is simply the term we use to describe some force, process, effect (or possibly a being) which is in some way linked to or responsible for the existence and nature of the cosmos. Must such a god exist? Can such a god exist? (We might call this god a "metaphysical" god.)1.2: Is the idea that "God created the universe" internally contradictory?
1.3: If we assume or know that a metaphysical god exists (or existed at one time so that the universe could be created), how are we then justified in extending this.
1.4: Why is there no evidence for the existence of souls?
1.5: Why is there no evidence for immortality?
1.6: How can an all-good God create or coexist with evil?
1.7: How can a just and merciful God create or allow pointless or random suffering?
1.8: Why can't God be perceived, measured, or detected?
1.9: Why doesn't God do anything which is clearly distinguishable from a delusion on the part of one or more believers? Why are God's objective characteristics identical to those of something that does not exist?
1.10: How can the reasonableness and prevalence of nonbelief coexist in the same universe with a just and loving God?
2: Churches
2.1: Does the existence of a personal God necessitate a church? Why can't an individual human being communicate directly with God to ascertain God's existence, nature, and will, thus preventing the encroachment of any deceptions perpetrated, willfully or otherwise, by other people or organizations who claim to represent God or carry God's message?2.2: If someone does communicate one-on-one with God as just noted, why should the knowledge they obtain by such a process be regarded as less valid than some other collection of spiritual knowledge?
2.3: If a church is necessary, how do we know which one, if any, accords with God's will? How do we know that Christianity is such
a church? On what basis can we examine and reject all competing faiths, including but not limited to: Babi/Baha'i, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism? Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
2.4: If Christianity is the true church of God, how do we know that conservative Protestantism is the only true branch of the true church of God? How can we reject all competing churches which call themselves Christian, including but not limited to: Catholic; Orthodox, Eastern Christian; African indigenous sects (AICs); Reformed, Presbyterian, Congregational, United; Methodist; Anglican; Lutheran; Jehovah's Witnesses; Adventist; Latter Day Saints (Mormon); Apostolic, New Apostolic; Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement"); New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.); Brethren (incl. Plymouth); Mennonite; Friends (Quakers), etc.?
Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
2.5: How do we know that Fundamentalism is the only true subbranch of the true branch of the true church of God? How can we reject all "non-Fundamentalist" sects within our own branch of Christianity, including but not limited to: Born-Again, Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Charismatic? Moreover, how can we distinguish among these various groups and our own in order to properly define our own group and constantly monitor it for compliance with God's Truth? Why would God allow the confusion of these competing faiths to occur?
3: The Bible3.1: There is nothing in the Old Testament which foretells or requires any of the substantial concepts of the New. (Not in the OT: personal salvation, a "heavenly hope", the need to replace the system of obedience to the Law.)
3.2: Morality: No objective moral system in the Bible.
3.3: Contradictions: Hundreds of minor (Babylon: Ezra 2:41 vs Neh 7:44), intermediate (Alcohol: Pr 20:1; Dn 1:8 vs. Jg 9:13; Ps 104:15; Pr 31:6-9; Centurion: Mt 8:5-9 vs. Lk 7:1-7), and major (Sin: 1Jn 1:8 vs. 1Jn 3:6-9; 5:18; Faith and Works: Eph 2:8-9 vs. Jn 5:29; 1Jn 2:4) ones .
3.4: Atrocities (Divinely mandated mass-murder and rape: Num 31:17-18; Children cursed by God and mauled or killed for teasing: 2 Ki 2:23-24). 3.5: Failed prophecies, both minor (Tyre: Ezek 26:14-21; 27:36 vs. Mk 7:24 and history) and major (End times were imminent: 1Pe 4:7; Mt 16:27-28; Mk 9:1; Mk 13:30; Lk 9:27; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phil 4:5; 1Th 4:17; Heb 1:2; Heb 10:37; James 5:8; 1Jn 2:18; Rev 1:1,3; 3:11, 22:7; 22;12).
3.6: Incoherent or inexplicable concepts (the Trinity, atonement, the need for and purpose of eternal damnation).
4: Doctrine, Methods, Practices, and General Concerns
4.1: Christians generally admit that the Bible contains "trivial" errors, such as copyists' errors. Why? Moreover, how do we know that there are not major errors as well?
4.2: Christians often ignore some of the Bible's clear and simpleteachings (Materialism: Mat 6:19, 25, 34).
4.3: Christians declare that verses do not mean what they plainly say, in spite of the fact that there is nothing in the text to justify it.
4.4: Some Christians indoctrinate their children, rather than teaching them how to think and how to seek and consider diverse ideas, so that they can decide about the truth for themselves.
4.5: Why should a thoughtful, conscientious, truth-seeking person be condemned to burn forever in hell for seeking to avoid the error of accepting what appears very clearly to be a fraudulent and delusional claim based on groundless ancient superstitions?
4.6: God allegedly "loves" those who are burning in hell. How would their situation be different if God hated them?
4.7: Even if the Bible is true, how does this make the "believe or burn" message acceptable? How can it be moral or just to obey
based upon threats, even if one is certain that the threat is real?
5: Getting Saved, Step-by-StepIf you have been able to resolve any difficulties arising from the preceding issues, you have accepted the ideas of fundamentalist Biblical Christianity, and are prepared for the final phase: actually getting saved. The following steps have been documented elsewhere, and are presented here with only some brief comments:
5.1: You must be born again (as already noted). This simply means that you must be saved, that you can and must know you are going to heaven.
5.2: You must realize that you are a sinner, and that you will still be a sinner after you are saved (contrary to what the Bible actually says; see "Sin", section 3.3).
5.3: You must understand Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus (although we still possess them, since we remain sinners) and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie (as long as you ignore 1Ki 22:33; 2Chr 18:22; Jer 20:7; Ezek 14:9; 2Th 2:11). Are you paying attention? We cannot understand Jesus' atoning sacrifice, but you must understand it.
5.4: You must repent.
5.5: You must believe that Jesus was resurrected, although there is no corroborating evidence for this claim, and the Biblical details concerning it are contradictory.
5.6: You must believe that your salvation occurs because of faith, and not by good works, although, as already noted ("Faith and Works", 3.3), some Bible verses contradict this, or describe additional or alternative requirements.
Once saved, you should lead the life of a good Christian, although this is not essential to salvation itself, since you cannot lose your salvation (unless you believe Heb 6:4-6 or 2Pe 2:20-21). After you are saved, you should be baptized, then unite with a Bible-believing church. Pray, read the Bible, and witness to others. Oh, and of course, pay your tithing. (God is often short on cash.)
Your Bible-believing church will no doubt require various behaviors. It's not prefectly clear just how much you can deviate from these requirements. Some deviations are probably not serious. If you smoke but believe it's wrong and are trying to quit, you are probably OK. Some deviations are of course egregious, and will result in your damnation. For instance, believing you are saved by works. (Your Bible-believing church would never let you join in such a case, since you could not be saved.) What if you believe it's acceptable to dance, drink in moderation, listen to rock, country, or jazz music, wear pants (this applies to women only), or wear long hair (men only)? What if you believe in and have carried out all of the steps above, but you also believe, for example, that you must be baptized to be saved? Play it safe and reject all of these things. Why take a chance? If you are wrong, you will burn in hell. (Of course, if I am wrong, I will burn in hell, along with those I convinced, but don't think about that.)
This tract is patterned after the ubiquitous "God's Simple Plan of Salvation" tract often distributed by Christian fundamentalists. (An
internet search for this phrase using Google returns 1260 hits as of this writing.) The tract was written in 1933 by Gaylord Ford Porter, who died in 1976. If you are not a fundamentalist, you will find that only some of this material applies to you. As to the intent of this tract, I think that it should be clear from the content.
Please realize that the manner in which issues have been raised is intended to be neither rigorous not comprehensive. This is not a philosophical treatise. In closing, I encourage you to switch on your brain and think about this stuff. Thank you for your attention.
"Mystery is essential to the impostor. Above everything else, the charlatan must avoid straightforward reasoning and simplicity of expression: too clear and direct a light would quickly destroy the spell he exerts, through eloquent ambiguity, over his victims. In all ages, the voice of the humbug has exercised a peculiar fascination -- it is his chief weapon. But though he has to speak and write continuously, his announcements are best couched in indefinite phrases, opaque and susceptible of many interpretations, like the words of Subtle, the alchemist in Ben Jonson's play of that name." [Grete de Francesco (translated from the German by Miriam Beard -- Yale University Press, 1939)]
Comments
We who are Christians know the Truth, because God has given us His Spirit to discern Truth from error, and to follow the voice of Jesus Christ. You, who do not have the Spirit, do not have ears to hear, nor eyes to see. It will all seem foolish to you. True Christians will understand that, and not pester you to conform to our lives standards. We know that we could never convince those in the flesh, of Spiritual Truth. It would be like trying to explain smells to a world of people with no noses. Without the Spirit you have no way of knowing, and for that cause I hurt for you.
But, if you want to have a well reasoned presentation of the Truth of the gospel, see the TrinityFoundation.org website.
We who are Christians are only here to seek the lost. We cry in the streets seeking only those whom the Spirit of God is calling. We proclaim the Truth to all who pass by. We warn of the impending judgment to come. The world will reject God's word, because they hate God and love their sinful ways. Nevertheless, we warn them that there truly is hell to pay for their rebellion against their creator who demands perfect obedience.
So laugh all you want, and I will weep for you and your kind. And know this, there is repentance and hope to the wicked. My God is a merciful, gracious and patient God. But there is a day of judgment and there is a never ending punishment waiting for you who love your sin and rebel against God.
Sincerely,
Qaton Chozeh
Probably because the "deceived fools" you speak of want to push their agenda (deception) on everyone else through systems of
government, schools, etc. BTW: You should know that not all of us consider you religious types to be 'deceived fools'; I
for one simple place them in the same category I used to be in - ignorant, and by that I mean ignorant of modern day facts.
>>Particularly to go to such an extent to create such a document. I guess you want to protect others from being "deceived,"
which I can understand, or maybe you are trying to justify your position of having heard and yet rejected the Truth of the
Word of God. Either way you are fighting against God, and you will lose the war.
Yes, yes - here you are claiming to know the "truth", like so many others who visit here. What an original statement; what a
powerful and bold assertion just brimming with authority. Yet, I (as well as many others on this site) HAVE YET to be
presented with some form of real evidence that even remotely suggests that your "truths' are TRUE AT ALL. Until such
evidence can be presented, the notion of fearing the "Truth of the Word of God" can be filed neatly in the trash heap..
>>We who are Christians know the Truth,
Yup; sure do., But which brand? There are approximately thirty thousand brands of Christian truth. Which one do you
subscribe to?
>>..because God has given us His Spirit to discern Truth from error, and to follow the voice of Jesus Christ. You, who do not
have the Spirit, do not have ears to hear, nor eyes to see. It will all seem foolish to you. True Christians will understand
that, and not pester you to conform to our lives standards. We know that we could never convince those in the flesh, of
Spiritual Truth. It would be like trying to explain smells to a world of people with no noses. Without the Spirit you have no
way of knowing, and for that cause I hurt for you.
Blah blah blah. More unsubstantiated blatherings from a Christian speaking about something whom he/she knows absolutely
nothing about.
>>But, if you want to have a well reasoned presentation of the Truth of the gospel, see the TrinityFoundation.org website.
ooOOoohh! ANOTHER appologetics website! Been there done that! HUNDREDS OF TIMES! Where on EARTH could you possibly direct
me, or others, that is going to supply us with any information that we haven't already heard or considered before?? Do you think we are just amateurs
here? Really? Would you like to know some of the histories of the people on this site? Give me a break. BTW - posting a
link is a cop-out. Howabout YOU presenting ME (and the rest of us) some definitive proof for the existance of your God, and if you can do that, then why this God is the BIBLICAL God, and not some other God, or group of God's?? Thanks.
>>We who are Christians are only here to seek the lost. We cry in the streets seeking only those whom the Spirit of God is
calling. We proclaim the Truth to all who pass by. We warn of the impending judgment to come. The world will reject God's
word, because they hate God and love their sinful ways. Nevertheless, we warn them that there truly is hell to pay for their
rebellion against their creator who demands perfect obedience.
Yeah, we hate god We HATE God! AaaraAAgh! GRrr! FUCK YOU GOD! Yeah! FUCK YOU!! (waving fists in the air) Yeesh. Really. You're really confused about how others think, arent' you? No, you simply accept what you're told about people like us, don't you? Where exactly do you get your opinions of other people-groups? Listen closely: I want you to please tell me how it is even possible for a person (like myself) to hate something that cannot even be proven to exist?? How? Please?? If I don't think something, or someone exists, how the hell am I supposed to form enough of an opinion about it to conclude that I like or hate it??? Do you hate the little wooden people that live on that new planet just behind Pluto? Do you? Do you really, really hate them? Is it possible that you can?? Is it possible? Think about this first before you post a reply. I want you to tell me all of your opinions of those little wooden people. I am serious. I'm making a point here...
>>So laugh all you want, and I will weep for you and your kind. And know this, there is repentance and hope to the wicked. My God is a merciful, gracious and patient God. But there is a day of judgment and there is a never ending punishment waiting for you who love your sin and rebel against God.
>>Sincerely, Qaton Chozeh
Thanks, Quaton, for the melodramatic pity show, all because you love us so much and don't want to see your 'loving gracious' god cook us forever in his fireplace of torment for all eternity. That's nice. Now that you have done that you run along now and cry and feel bad for all of us lost people, while the rest of us simply go on living, not giving a second though of you, or your luney unprovable theological spunk that you dribbled here. Been there, done that. -Wes.
I know that something must really be wrong with you, given the vile nature of your response. Based upon your letter, I can see why Christians are persecuted and killed the world over. We are kind, and you are profane. I am at peace and contented and even trying to be kind to you while you are bombastic back at me. That is not very stable. The sad thing is that you probably don’t even realize how you sound, and probably wear it as a badge of honor, likely thinking you really gave it to that stupid Christian. And, I thank you for your abuse. I take joy in my weakness and ineptitude, for when I am weak then He is strong.
Being as you are such a smart guy, I am amazed that you somehow missed the whole point of my short letter. I am not trying to convince you (you must have over read that part of my letter), nor will I ever try to convince you of God’s existence. Only God’s Spirit can change your heart. I am just looking for lost sheep, proclaiming the message of the Gospel to those who will hear. What you do with the message is between you and the God you deny.
I’ll just touch on a few of your points:
First, apparently, you think that Christians “want to push their agenda (deception) on everyone else.” That is incorrect (you must have missed that part of my letter, though I cannot understand how with you being so smart compared to God’s children who are ignorant.). I am not trying to push you at all. Being a Christian is not a matter of getting some ungodlys to walk a certain way. But, Christians have a right (at least still now) to vote, and to have a say in how we live, and what type of community we would like. Do we not? Or, would you deny that right to us, while you retain it for yourself? Is it only the Godless that have rights? Is it only the Godless, particularly those who base their opinions on the “shifting sands” of “science” which is based upon observation and averages and can never give Truth, that are allowed to speak of what life they would like to have in their communities? With that type of thinking you probably think there is a lake just ahead as you drive down the road in the desert, or that 1,000 white swans means all swans are white, or that Pluto is a planet (or its not, or it is, or its not etc.). That is the futility of comparing science to revelation, the Word of God, the Bible. Only revelation can give truth, science cannot (read Gordon Clark if you need to be educated). Given that my life is ruled by the Bible, God’s revelation, and apparently what rules your life is your own mind, a.k.a. science (falsely so called), there will be a clash of cultures. I could just as easily look at it as you are trying to push your agenda on me. After all, the society that some are fighting to regain (though not myself, I believe Jesus when He said “my Kingdom is not of this world…”) is one that was prevalent in times past. The one they are fighting against is being brought in, from pagan cultures, over the past decades (divorce, adultery, sodomy, feminism, consumerism, earth worship etc.). But back to my point, my “agenda” is based upon revelation, yours is based upon your mind, or what you are told to think by the predominate, elite culture. Why should I be subjected to follow the thoughts of Wes and the rest of the God haters? (more on that reality later) You must think yourself a god.
Furthermore, your paragraph is confusing. First you call it my “deception,” then you say that you don’t think I am deceived, just ignorant. Please make up your mind. No wonder I don’t want to follow your way of life. You have trouble being lucid with one thought, in a single paragraph. With that kind of thinking, I would be more comfortable with the “Magic 8 Ball” in deciding what is right and what is wrong.
You said that I am “ignorant of modern day facts.” It is funny how you think Christians are so ignorant, yet, knowing nothing of me, and having no revelation to stand upon for your statement (more on that thought later), you make a blanket statement regarding what I, and many, many others, know, or don’t know. Wow, aren’t you the intelligent one! So broadminded, so understanding, and so very typical of God haters. You have no facts, just conjecture, based upon the observation and averages of flawed men, usually with agendas for fulfilling their animalistic lusts and passions. Christians live according to a higher principle. God haters are compared (in the scripture) to filthy swine wallowing in the mire.
Proverbs 14.12 “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
Jeremiah 17.9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
You said “you are claiming to know the "truth", like so many others who visit here. What an original statement.” I must have missed something. Nowhere did I ever set a goal for myself to be original. I am just trying to be Biblical, and faithful to my God. I am out in His harvest. I am fishing. I am just trying to find lost sheep. I am calling out the gospel message. I only stopped by to say hello, and ask a couple of questions, raise an issue or two. I thought that is what the comment section was for. Again, if you don’t like it, don’t believe it, but you really should try to be a little more composed. You come across as unhinged. I would tend to think that to be a result of your continued lying to yourself day in and day out. Be warned, Jesus said “ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8.23-24) “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev 20.15 Nothing original about that. Plain as can be. And purposefully so.
You said that you “HAVE YET to be presented with some form of real evidence.” I must have missed something again, or again (more likely) you didn’t carefully read my letter. I do not have any “form of real evidence” for you, as you Pharisaically demand (“show us a sign” they said). God does not provide that. He is not your genie in a bottle, to do your bidding and come when you call Him. You do not command Him. He commands you, or you will be “cooked” as you think of it. You have to understand, you are not in the driver’s seat in life. God is God (seemingly redundant, I know, but meaningful if you care to take the time to think about it). Were I to present evidence, faith wouldn’t be needed, for why would you need faith for what you can see? God wants us to come to Him by faith. This is so that the glory may be all His, and none for you, or me or anyone else. Rough I know, but try to pry yourself out of your “man is autonomous” mentality if you want to understand something beyond the lust of your flesh.
If you would have taken the time to go to the website I suggested you might have found out that God’s existence is an axiom. I am sure that a very smart man like yourself knows what mathematical axioms are (probably better than me, since I am just ignorant of “modern facts”). Scripturally, God is an axiom, kind of like the communicative property. There must be an axiom in any body of knowledge, or else you could never get started saying you know anything. Furthermore, apologetics is not my specialty. Others do it much better than me, but none will ever prove the existence of God. If they try they are just foolish. But, if you cared to read Gordon Clark (at the website), you might find information that I am fairly certain (based upon your ignorant responses) you haven’t heard before (although based upon the tenor of your testimony, I am inclined to think you think you know a bunch). Apparently you think that apologetics is trying to prove the existence of God. You are very wrong (read 1 Peter 3.15, and 1 Corinthians 2).
You are free to file “neatly in the trash heap” anything you like. Again, I cannot convince you, and I never thought I could. I am just proclaiming a gospel message, trying to find lost sheep. But be warned Jesus said “I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.” (Luke 12.5)
You asked about my belief, saying “But which brand” and “Which one do you subscribe to?” I subscribe to the only brand there is – scriptural Christianity. Any other form is wrong according to the Bible (and the Bible is self authenticating). Tradition and rationalism are wrong, and have no place in the faith (not implying that the faith is irrational, but you have to understand that being rational, and rationalism are two different things differentiated by one’s approach to God). The Bible claims to be the very Word of God. Any turning to the left or to the right is sin. Having said this, I can understand your confusion regarding the “brands” as you say. But that is no reason to reject and ignore the Truth. Your responsibility before God is to hear His Word and obey it. You are not responsible to clean up all the confusion in the world. You don’t have to solve Sally’s or Bill’s problems. Remember when Peter asked about John and what he would do, in John 21? Jesus answered “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.” Yours is to seek God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and God will be found of you. “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (Heb 11.6) And “ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Jer 29.13)
Furthermore, there are reasons for the various teachings out there. First, there are liars, false apostles (2Cor 11), false teachers (2Pet 2) and Satan is the father of lies. He seeks to deceive anyway he can. Second, men (like me) are weak. When God saves one, He doesn’t give that person all the Truth there is. When gain more as we progress. No one teaches Differential Equations to 1st graders, but rather we start slowly, giving them the basics, and only a little at a time. Unfortunately all Christians make mistakes, and find out early that we are in service from day one, and sometimes over our heads against some very smart people. The newly saved person does know the Truth of God’s way of salvation, or else they wouldn’t be saved, but there is a lifetime of understanding to be gained, experienced and enjoyed. Someone saved last year, will not know as much as someone saved 50 years ago, assuming both to be faithful seekers.
You said “Howabout presenting ME (and the rest of us) some definitive proof for the existance of your God.” Believe me, I would really like to give you definitive proof, as you say. Wouldn’t it make things a lot easier on everyone here and everywhere else in this world? I would have liked it myself before I believed. But Jesus said that if you don’t believe His Word, you won’t believe even a miracle, or, by extension, some sort of proof. “And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16.31) God wants Faith, which, by the way, He is the arbiter of, that there be no glory to man. God being completely perfect in Holiness, Righteous, Judgment and all His attributes will not share His glory with another. That may seem harsh to you, but your responsibility as a creature is to submit and obey your creator.
You said “while the rest of us simply go on living, not giving a second though of you, or your luney unprovable theological spunk.” Now you are just being silly. This whole website is dedicated to giving at least a second thought to my blah, blah, blah (see I can write like you). I find it incredibly foolish of you to respond to me that you will not give it a second thought. This stated on a forum where someone has given a lot of time and second thoughts about God, that apparently you spend at least some of you time reading. It would be sort of like me saying I am not typing right now. Maybe it is just your highly informed, non-ignorant superior intellect at work, and maybe I just cannot grasp your depth. Anyway, to put it bluntly, you sound dumb.
You said “Yeah, we hate god We HATE God! AaaraAAgh! GRrr! FUCK YOU GOD! Yeah! FUCK YOU!! (waving fists in the air) Yeesh. Really. You're really confused about how others think, arent' you? No, you simply accept what you're told about people like us, don't you? Where exactly do you get your opinions of other people-groups? Listen closely: I want you to please tell me how it is even possible for a person (like myself) to hate something that cannot even be proven to exist?” This is perhaps, the most interesting point of your entire letter. First, I understand what you are saying, and I understand how you say you that you think. Believe me, I have talked to others before. You are not the first God hater I have worked with. But, you need to understand that when I address you, I address you the way God does in His Word. That is where I “get my opinions.” Certainly not from a man (like you do). You seem like you should know that based upon your earlier testimony. Why would I just believe what you say, regarding your alleged ignorance of God’s existence, over what the revelation of God says of your position. Were I to do that I would end up believing you more than God. The Bible says that “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Ps 14.1-3) “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2Cor 4.4) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rom 1.20-25)
The Bible says you are either deceived by the Father of lies, or willingly following your unrighteous lusts. I have told you of God (from the scriptures), you hate that (whatever it may be to you) therefore you hate the God I speak of. That shouldn’t be too hard to understand. For example, you may tell me of a theory of origins called evolution, I hate that theory because it is calling my God a liar by contradicting His Holy Word. Although I do not believe it to exist (as a reality in truth), I can still hate it (as something of man’s evil imagination). You, similarly, are fighting against something on this website, whether that something exists in reality, in your mind, or purely in the minds of other men, it doesn’t matter. You are fighting and hating something. And that something, I know to be God, based upon the testimony of God Himself, in His Holy Word. God says that you do know of Him, you are just deceived and rebellious. Can you understand that? Does that make sense? So I do know how you think. Like a natural brute beast. But you could think like a child of God, a son of the King, if you believed God’s Word, stopped your futile rebellion and submitted to your creator who demands as much.
You said God will “cook us forever in his fireplace of torment for all eternity.” Nicely put. You turned that phrase quite well. Although the subject matter is horrible, it is nonetheless true. Yes God is loving and gracious, but you have to understand that it is only to some – not all. He is also the righteous judge. He is austere. He is severe. He is exacting. He does not tolerate. I don’t know what you believed, and from what belief you were “delivered” from in the past, but the Truth of the Gospel is that God does NOT love everyone, nor does He intend to save everyone. He has an elect “from before the foundation of the world.” Yet He holds you responsible. I know that is tough on your human pride, but it is Truth. God says “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Rom 9.15-23) And “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Rom 11.22) God didn’t spare the old world, before the flood. He didn’t spare Pharaoh in the days of Moses. He didn’t spare Esau in his profaneness. And He will not spare the reprobate in the coming day of judgment. Yes, those who hate Him, or even play the charade of the deceived “prove He exists…” will all be thrown into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented for all eternity. You may toy with it now, but you will have eternity to wallow in misery for “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 8.12) “Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 22.13-14) Of the wicked Jesus says “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Mat 25.46)
I have given you warning. I have told you were to find Truth. You can never claim ignorance. You have, thus far, rejected it all. Your blood in on your own head. If you do not repent, and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the memory of my efforts will eat away at you for all eternity.
I will be moving on. Thank you for the opportunity to preach the Truth. And thank you for not being a coward on these issues.
This whole site reminds me of the scripture “And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.” (Luke 6.11)
But why would you care so much what a bunch of us "deceived fools" believe?
GO AWAY, PENDEJO!
And then may you enjoy a happy and fulfilling life without it.
There is "you", who actually believe you are separate than the group "Christian". I don't see you as an individual, if you were, you wouldn't need a title called "Christian". So, because you have the title, you are one of the collective, and here is what "you" as part of the collective have done to "push" your political agenda.
God, is on U.S. currency. U.S., currency is exchanged "internationally", therefore, the U.S. and your God are tools to establish a political foothold internationally. Your God is on the U.S. pledge of allegiance, and continues to be placed on public record like state songs. The Ten Commandments statues continue to find their way on the lawns of public court houses and county office buildings.
You can't possibly be that low on intelligence to not know what your affiated members are doing to the world at large.
"I don’t know what you believed, and from what belief you were “delivered” from in the past, but the Truth of the Gospel is that God does NOT love everyone, nor does He intend to save everyone."
This is absolutely false. God does love everyone of His creations, it's some of their choices that He does Not love. Please Qaton, if you're going talk to people about God, try to remember that the heart of the Law is Love.
God Bless,
Trevor
That sure sounds like an odd form of love to me.
Please Trevor, if you're going to talk to people about Love, try to remember that the heart of the Law is to Love unconditionally.
What sins has anyone on this planet committed that would condemn the person to everlasting horrific torture?
How could a century of doubting the existence of your god warrant eternal suffering after death? Why no chance of parole or repentance after death? Why no mercy in the afterlife? What difference does it make that some fancy monkeys have going on in their little heads to the omnipotent creator of all?
Christianity is silly.
'Sorry Trevor, but the problem with this presuppositional thinking is that you erroneously ass-ume that non-believers are, or should be, preoccupied with "wanting to do" things that would be considered unethical. WRONG. You poor boy, you......you simply cannot accept the fact that I don't get my morality from your Holy Book. You see, when I gave up Christianity, I didn't suddenly get the urge to rape, rob, steal, or kill people. Not-to-mention, that there are times when lying, stealing, and killing become acceptable. And I'd be happy to provide you with hypothetical situations to illustrate just how the aforementioned "sins" are acceptable..both socially, and morally. Moreover, that I can do just that, clearly shows that your biblegod's "Word" is not intrinsically "good", like Christians love to pretend.
Trevor: He’ll always love you but your choices could condemn you.
Now see, to me, this is a funny statement(both odd and amusing).
Let's assume that this "God" exists: Okay, you seem to be saying that, since biblegod will "always love" me, that "He" would rather not "condemn" me, but has no choice, yes? That would only make sense, right? He still "loves me" even as I'm roasting away in horrific agony. Okay, if that statement is accurate, then what you're suggesting is that the Creator of the entire Universe is literally forced to do something against it's own will. I'm sorry, but that notion is utterly absurd, and it clearly isn't indicative of any "OMNIPOTENT" being. A "God" that is powerless against it's own wishes? You'll have to do better.
Trevor: This was so important to God that he wanted to let us know about it personally.
If it was biblegod's intention to "let us know" things "personally"..i.e..first-hand, then there'd be no reason for second-hand revelation. The whole premise of revelation, is for one to have "Faith". The bible even says, it is written so that you shall believe.[paraphrased]. Call me reasonable, but that doesn't sound like a personal encounter to me.
Trevor: Indeed, he loves you, so much so that he died & suffered for you to prove His love and to reconcile you to Him
Forgive me(no pun), but again, I find this statement odd, as well. If "God" sent himself to kill himself to pay for our "sins" in full, then there should be no outstanding debt. If there is debt, then the suicide/murder "sacrifice" was for nothing(that's provided Jesus is dead) Now, on the other hand, if "JESUS LIVES!!!"---like Christians profess---then where was the "sacrifice"????????
Listening.
Try matching up your god to the real world. Let's start before man ever came into the picture. First the world was no eden. Fear,hunger and hardship all did take place ever before humans evolved into occupying this planet. Suppose how did we come into the picture? From trouble, toil, fear, survival, hunting gathering, child rearing and so on. This world was dangerous and cold. Where was the god of eden. The one who made you perfect and all the lands of the world. And man fell from grace. Now your going to get it if you don't accept jesus christ as your savior because he paid the way. This is all baloney. The true world is what I believe in, not some book that primative priests created.
The only possible god is the one responsible for creating this world, universes and all life in this world. Man is not responsible for the uneden of this planet it is of the creator if there is one. Why are we responsible for survival, this isn't vile. Sex,is not vile it is part of mother nature which we are part of you didn't come from angels mind you. Austrolopithicus, Neanderthal, and so on. If these are our fathers which they are not adam and eve, then we are not responsible for being so called perfect. This world is not made of such things. I do however believe in goodness and mercy but I don't turn around like you christians and not ultimately have any for anyone except yourselves or so you believe ultimately. I believe you are unfair to the world of man and beast. You care not for the things that count of this planet cause your mind is not there. Save the life of this planet as we have it. And give men peace and stop being false witness to life itself. Man has come beyond all other life forms in intelligence, yet it seems that animals are smarter in many ways. The peace to be had is here and now. If you can't get it here then you didn't get it at all.
Why are people pushing many thousand year old beliefs? Don't we understand that we progress in time that we discover new things and that we put behind us our errors. That is how we have learned and grown, through trial and error. If you take everything that is written in the bible as the word of god then you must take everything. You can't have part and not all being the word of god. You must also believe in all the bad things written in the old testament and new testament since it is part of the bible. You spoke something of sodomy being of the evils of men. Did you read that story fully. The word sodomy comes from the city of Sodom. Lot was by far considered the good one. He told the intruders to take his daughters as they saw fit but don't take these guests of mine. Baah humbug. Lot had no morals he gave his daughters to these men what filth and disregard for his own children. Sir, you are nothing but a bigot of the earth , a heretic and an evil wicked creature turning this planet upside down, imorally at least that is your tithe in life. Your mouth is filth and your brain is equally so. Being wrong can be very harmful. Think about it.
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