10 Questions for Christians
submitted by Gary McNutt
1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? If the bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deut. 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Gen 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings? Why didn't Jesus ever mention it, or teach it?
2. How could Adam and Eve ever have sinned if God had actually created them perfect, even if they did have free will? If God created them imperfect, how could a perfect omnipotent being create anything imperfect?
3. Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous.
4. Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them? (II Thes 2:11 - 12)
5. Why does Jesus quote a non-existent verse of the OT scripture (John 7:38)? Is it possible that he considered other non-canonical writings also to be God's Word?
6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.
7. Why does the writer of Matthew quote a non-existent OT prophecy (Matthew 2:23)?
8. Why does the writer of Matthew attribute a quote about the potter's field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah (Matthew 27:9 - 10, Zechariah 11:12)?
9. Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)?
10. Why aren't christians doing greater works than Jesus did, since he himself said they would (John 14:12)? Why aren't they raising the dead, turning water into wine, healing the sick, feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food, casting out demons, walking on water?
1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? If the bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deut. 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Gen 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings? Why didn't Jesus ever mention it, or teach it?2. How could Adam and Eve ever have sinned if God had actually created them perfect, even if they did have free will? If God created them imperfect, how could a perfect omnipotent being create anything imperfect?
3. Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous.
4. Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them? (II Thes 2:11 - 12)
5. Why does Jesus quote a non-existent verse of the OT scripture (John 7:38)? Is it possible that he considered other non-canonical writings also to be God's Word?
6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.
7. Why does the writer of Matthew quote a non-existent OT prophecy (Matthew 2:23)?
8. Why does the writer of Matthew attribute a quote about the potter's field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah (Matthew 27:9 - 10, Zechariah 11:12)?
9. Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)?
10. Why aren't christians doing greater works than Jesus did, since he himself said they would (John 14:12)? Why aren't they raising the dead, turning water into wine, healing the sick, feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food, casting out demons, walking on water?
Comments
prayer works...and not all prayers are answered. God's ways are far more complex than ours, He knows what He's doing.(1 John 3:20) I think the prayer your talking about is from people who pray in vain or for the wrong reasons...then their prayer will most likely not be answered- there are many verses for this
Isaiah 59:2
and in the Word it says that peopl ewho pray but with wrong motives, will not be heard from God.
That pretty well covers it, doesn't it?
It's also stupid.
2. Adam and Eve are perfect creations, and I think it is clear why free will exists - freedom, choice etc... Their sin came about by their free will, not by virtue of an imperfect creation.
3. That is a far more complicated question then perhaps considered. It is unreasonable to oversimplfy why christians pray, and should not be limited to a comparison of 'changing God's mind'.
4. The verse refers to those who have not believed the truth, delighted in evil and will be condemned. There is an overtone of 'irrestistible grace' or predestination with respect to the past tense and retrospectivity. It has already been forseen and determined by a God who knows their will and choice (regarding the truth) from beginning to end, and perhaps, devoid of a linear sense of time.
9. Firstly, Christ is speaking to his 'disciples' (ie. followers of Christ ie. Christians); Secondly, prayer does work for those who pray in faith (from experience); Thirdly, often it is clear God witholds those things we ask for until we are fit to receive them (much like a maturity in faith, also from experience); Fourthly, God prepares us (either for what we ask), or, has some greater plan for us, for which we receive either greater truth, blessings, faith, understanding etc...
10. After consulting a few translations, it appears there is a slight misinterpretation of the verse. Rather the verse refers to doing works or things like Christ and the ability to do greater works or things. I think this is not simply an issue of emulating Christ, his teachings, and in the case of the apostles, an ability to heal etc, but more an issue firstly of becoming holy and perfected/justified in faith, and secondly, faith itself, which includes those things mentioned above and, perhaps, what man has accomplished as Christians; with a degree of faith that goes beyond simply being a witness of Christ.
Hope this helps! All the best!
"1. Who has not sinned apart from Christ? Should we, as Adam, not be punished for sin?"
Sin does not exist. And my name is not "Adam". (Bet you think people are made out of dirt, too, huh?)
As for the rest of the scheisse you posted, we are simply not interested. This is Ex-Christian.Net. We no longer believe in your god or your holy book. Go away.
I dont understand why we should be punished for Adam's sin?
If we inheret a sinful nature from Adam which causes us to sin; does that make us guilty of for a nature we did not ask for?
I dont remember asking to be born, especially with a corrupted nature.
Secondly; If we are all universally condemned for Adam's sin, whether we like it or not, then should we not all recieve universal justifacation and forgiveness through christ?
He was the second Adam, and he came to undo Adam's mistake.
So my question for any believer's that visit this site;
Why unearned, un asked for, un wanted universal damnation through Adam, but not so with christ?
Why is their prerequisites for getting saved? Why do we have to believe, repent, live according to God's laws, live a life of un swerving faith and endure all the hardships of being a follower to the end, in order to be forgiven? Could someone answer that please?
Perhaps think about adopting a pseudonym(a nick-name) so you stand apart from the over-flux of anonymous Christian intruders who frequent this blog. Wha' d'ya say?
As far as your questions, you raise some good points. Anyone who believes that we should be held accountable for someone else's alleged "crime", has a really perverted sense of "justice". Only in the "lah-lah-land" mind-set of Christiandom do we find such idiotic, impractical, out-moded concepts.
Exactly, anonymous!
Universal damnation is automatic because of the first Adam, but when it comes to the second Adam, redemption is NOT automatic. People who have never even heard of the Bible are destined for everlasting torture, because someone they never heard of, thousands of years ago, ate an apple. However, the supposed redemption provided by God's only begotten son doesn't do a damned thing for anyone unless they "accept" (whatever that really means) the gospel message.
Christianity is pathetic.
I hope more of you read my comment too.
Another one I have to add is, if you read in the book of Romens chapter 6; Paul says that christ died to free us of the power of sin, and that sin is no longer your master when your in christ. For when we died with christ, we were set free from the power of sin. (Anyone who was ever a believer should know these scriptures.)
But read on to chapter 7; he says the complete opposite.
Paul says that he is sold into slavery with sin as his master, and he does the things he hates, but doesn't do the things he wants to do.He say's thier is another power within him that's at war with his mind. This power makes him a slave to sin that is still within him.
If that's not a condradiction then what is? Anyone have anything to add on this topic.
And rembember, God has put the Holy Spirit in every of us so every men is blesses since his birth. The are lying who say that they do not believe at all, as in the night when darnkness comes and they are alone, they doubt...
God bless you and repent for you sins.
Please remember that Zeus is the god of all gods, and everyone ultimately answers to him; even those other deities people worship. Everyone knows this deep down. May Zeus smile upon you.
Okay, to the above poster named "zlatan", I seriously hope that you are ten years of age, or younger - either that, or if you're an adult - I seriously hope that English is not your first language, because honestly, your writing skills are horrendous.
And BTW, your arguments aren't much better, either. You said:
Nobody denies God's existance without having his own interesst in it.
Pay attention: I deny the existence of "God" because I see no credible evidence that such a thing exists. But make no mistake---even if there was sufficient evidence for the Christian biblegod, I would still take "hell", before I would ever accept the forced, manipulative, coersive "salvation" that the Christian biblegod "offers". Repeat: I would TAKE HELL. Now, feel free to tell me where the self-interest is in that.
And rembember, God has put the Holy Spirit in every of us so every men is blesses since his birth.
Says who? Unless you have some evidence for this claim, you are merely making an unfounded assertion.
The are lying who say that they do not believe at all, as in the night when darnkness comes and they are alone, they doubt...
No, I'm not "lying"; I disbelieve. And yes, I "doubt". But guess what, Einstein?.... I am proud of that fact. "Doubting".i.e..being skeptical, is the way to finding objective truth. Conversely, self-imposed ignorance is a sure-fire way to staying in that, um, "darnkness" that you speak of. It is religious convictions that hate "the light".
God bless you and repent for you sins.
May reason find you, and may you repent for your sickening ignorance.
i.e. Proselytizing, which is in clear violation of the ToS of this website. Read the disclaimer.
Enough said.
10. See there in the middle your brain crossed wires with your ego and it was no longer the word of god. But to sin is to err and to err is to be human.
9. I very much resent your use of the notion that parents are supposed to be spiteful or disciplinary takers and removers and denyers of our children's wants, need, and yes even more complicated desires than the petty things god my grant us during our batan march to HIS WILL.
8. Here you make a logical fallacy and enguage in cognitive dissonecne. Hanging your entire worldveiw on the "image of the story" and "the meaning in the image" and not rationally pay attention to the question of what is the "thing of the story?"
It kills itself to have you love it. It craves and hungers for your company, or perhaps to control you, that it would rather kill itself than let you actaully chose. For by killing itself it colors your guilt.
I want a god that has higher aims for me. Your's sounds like a demon, or an insanity. You might be speaking with the power of your gods will form your red chair, but my god would redden your ass for your display of arrogance.
7. number seven didnt intrest me either.
6. Wow... you mean god had thought of more rules? Ten general ones left far too much open for personality and connectionw ith the little critters he made to entertain him. Your god sounds like a Child.
5. We each interpret the scripture unto ourselves. Remeber the part that says "But scripture is not of private interpretation." Try to tweak your brain enough to see it fourth dementionally. To me it means that our personal relationship with the it we call god, should never be imposed, adulterated or made intoa religion for others to join us.
So it does not matter that she is reading it to literally. That you even make this excuss shows us that you live in cognitive dissonence because you knwo you belive the truth, but it comes to you in fractured lies. tsk tsk... didn't you study the part where the holy book tells you to test ALL spirits, and hold fast that which is true?
Your god sounds like he had beaten the challenge out of you.
4. I do partilly agree that a persons god thing is part of a personal drama... but i belive these drama's are illusion, if not the god fantasy then we will imagine another holy theme to giv eour memores enjoyment. Even the hard knocks of life, a their own beauty. Doesn't your god ever let you enjoy life's trials and show you the brighter things in life like family and helping others and pulling together, does he always yank your reality's rug out from under you? That sounds abusive.
3. see remark about batan march.
2. So you like the story of... Mand live sin pleasure entertaining god, but one day he get's curious, man is an evil naught boy because he defys the very simple instructions of his most high. And satan is a naughty boy because he dares to wonder if someday he could become master. I jsut breaks god's wittle heart that his creatures who are created in his image in his mighty sandbox would want to test their maker, and realise he is merely an object of their will, that he truely has no power over them. He gave man free will, this means he wanted them to have the strenght to let him go. I do no tbelive that a true god, jsut like a true parent, would crave above all his creation's integrity and freedom.
1. *pulls ms kitty off your face* OH i am dreadfully sorry, mrs kitty is unpredicably around uber-sanctimoniousness.
Also, if I didn't happen to be such a fine, moral-upstanding atheist, I'd be tempted to sign him up for all kinds of naughty emails. ;-)
But they did not know is was wrong to, because God had made them so they didn't. That is God's mistake, not theirs.
"2. They sinned because they chose to sin. God new of the risks of giving them free will but he didn't want creatures to love Him because they had to"
They were given the ability to sin but not the knowledge to know what was a sin, hence they could not avoid sinning. That is God's mistake, not theirs.
"3. Praying is not changing God's mind. Not every little detail is planned out by God."
Then God is not omniscient, that would explain the mistakes. Also if God has not planned everything then he has planned nothing. If his plan is for some little girl to become a great teacher, what happens if I decide to take a shortcut and end up running her over? Or does God prevent me from taking that route, overriding my free will, or keep her from going out in the road, overriding hers. And what if he does prevent it from happening? The shock might have been just what was needed to turn me back to him, so he's just cost me my only shot at redemption. That is God's mistake, not mine.
4: From my understanding, God sent the lie to test the people. If they failed, they shall be punished because they openly worked agest God.
If God tells lies, then how can anything in the bible be trustworthy? Why should I obey God when what he tells me might be a lie to trick me into working against him so I can be punished for it? And God is supposed to be all-wise, all-knowing isn't he? What disgrace is there in being deceived by someone who so obviously would overmatch me? If I fail that is God's mistake, not mine.
"7: I don't understand what the problem there is, [...] What must be understood is that the bible was written using people who at the time were the equivalent of archeologist and used letters and old documents to write"
So the bible is not the word of God? Then whatever is in it and whatever rules it says God wants me to follow are just the words of men. Why should I follow what a mere mortal says God wants, men and women are hardly infallible when it comes to determining what God approves of (see 1).
"8. [...] What you could be seeing is a editing mistake."
But then, so could anything I read in the bible. So the assertion that it is somehow also the word of God is invalid.
"9: Why won't your parents give you things when you ask for them?"
Why did Jesus promise God would do so if in fact he never had any intention of fulfilling that promise, even from the best of motives. Is that another of God's lies or just one more editing mistake?
"10: Maybe it's not getting reported? I've heard of men casting out demons, I've heard of them raising the dead, walking on water [...] Jesus couldn't use the internet like I am"
Great, film these miracles and put them on YouTube. This is just the kind of thing I and others have often said would undermine their atheism. I am so happy to have finally found someone who can actually demonstrate raising the dead and walking on water to unbelievers like me. Finally we shall have real evidence, I can't wait to see it!
I would like to point out that you are an ego maniac. "We are doing something Jesus couldn't do. We are speaking to the entire world." Jesus was God and you are doing a bettear job than Jesus? By the way, God and Jesus with their magical super powers could speak to the whole world but they haven't. Makes you wonder. Is God just plain mean, evil even, for not giving everyone on Earth a clear cut message or does Biblegod just not exist? Food for thought.
Also, in your scholarly research where you found out that the Gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did you also figure out that the Bible is not the Word of God and Jesus is imaginary?
PS _ Love the part where praying is not changing God's mind. So ask away, you will not be saved from horrendous acts against you like being beat up, raped, parental abuse .... Thank God for that.
Since God knows everything then He knows I am going to tell you to get back on your meds and for crying out loud spell the name of the first man correctly.
PS - It is very rude top prosylitize on this website. This site is for encouraging exChristians.
Gott go. Gotta life. Maybe you should get a life as well.
So god told his forst recorded lie!
THEY DID NOT DIE. God instead chose to curse them and their descendants - petulant, capricious, quixotic, mythical deity that he is.
If you want to converse with the people here, DO IT HERE. Or can your 'arguments' not stand up to public scrutiny?
Better yet, do it in the attached forums. There's even a space reserved for such proselytizing there.
But your 'seed of God' has been recognized as the weeds it grows into; you will find no fertile ground here.
I signed him up for this: http://www.hookedonphonics.com/
Once he masters that, I'll graduate him to Chicks w/D*cks.
1) God told Adam and Eve two things. A) Don't eat of the tree and B) Be fruitful and multiply. That could only do one of the two things so in any case they would have been breaking one of God's commandments to them. They were only fruitful AFTER they ate of the tree, not before.
2) God does indeed want his 'children' to love him because they have to. Why else would he have created Hell for people who do things he doesn't want them to? There is no free will as far as god is concerned. It is his way or eternal fire.
3) Praying is stupid. A) Either god is all-knowing and praying is superfluous or he isn't and needs people to pray to him to clue him in on what is going on. B) Either god has a plan that he must follow to the letter and will not answer prayers or there is no plan and he just makes it up as he goes along. If the Plan is true, then any prayers that do seem to be answered are just happen to coincide with something he wanted to occur anyway. If he just makes it up as he goes along, then he is a total asshole for not healing children or feeding the starving or giving me the winning lottery numbers so I can fix my car and upgrade parts of my house. I would love to have a laundry room that isn't also my bathroom!
4) You really think that betraying a trust is a good way to test someone AND that the person you screwed over is wrong for NOT continuing to trust you? If you were 10 and your mom gave you something to drink, you would drink it without question. If that something was poisoned, how the hell is it YOUR fault that your mother betrayed your trust and gave you something dangerous to drink? So god willfully leads people into danger and temptation and tells them lies just so he can fuck them over for believing him? But if we disobey god we are doomed to hellfire but we have to obey god or we are doomed to hellfire but if we obey a lie from god we are doomed to hellfire but we must believe or die because disobedience is death.....
Hogwash. You and your pretend deity can't have it both ways.
5) Jesus was quoting a verse that is not in existence today, yet the word of god is perfect... so why did something perfect disappear?
6) Moses brought down 316 commandments?--- Now you are just being ridiculous. So you say that Moses hauled down over 60 stone tablets from the mountain that God had written rules on but then he broke them because they were too complicated? But right after that, there is the book of Leviticus that has more rules than you can shake a stick at.
7) If the bible is perfect then everything should be there. The very fact that it is OBVIOUSLY missing verses and entire books shows how imperfect it really is.
8) Editing mistakes in a perfect book? (Read #7 again)
9) If god judges that some prayers be not fulfilled then why did Jesus say they would be? Jesus did know the will of god, right?
Matthew 21:22 And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.
John 14:13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Mark 11:24 Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
Oh wait.....I GET IT!!!! God is LYING so he can send anyone who tries praying straight to hell for being audacious enough to believe what he says about prayers being answered! OMG that is so clever! What an amazing god your god is!
10) As David B. said, record all the miracles you are working and post them on youtube for EVERYONE to see and believe in the power of your almighty god. Cause an amputee's limb or digit to grow back and post that because that would be proof positive that god is real. I would love to see such things as it would surely be a wonder to behold.
1. Go ahead and sign me up for porn and what not, I don't care. That's your choise and I know of and understand what would have happened when I put it up there. I was hoping to find mature people who want personal chats.. but no matter.
2. Sorry for not having an editor on hand to check my spelling.
3. Yes. The entire bible was written with a man's hand. It was edited with a man's hand. It was taken appart and put back together with a man's hand. It was translated with a man's hand. Yes, man wrote the bible. But as he wrote it he was being filled with God's presence. The Bible is the living word of God. Of any of you can can muster the strength to tear yourselves away from this and read the bible to it's entirity. Find people who can help you clear up mistakes. And really take time to understand it, you will see that too. Few men who spent their live's to debunk God remained atheists for long.
4. When God said, "you shall die." He meant spiritually. We have died and lost ourselves to God. Remember that the people of the time had a very limited understanding of the world. So God used language that was easy to understand from peasant to priest. No man will be unable to pick up the Holy word and not feel it if they haven't intensionally locked themselves away.
5: "I would like to point out that you are an ego maniac. "We are doing something Jesus couldn't do. We are speaking to the entire world." Jesus was God and you are doing a bettear job than Jesus? By the way, God and Jesus with their magical super powers could speak to the whole world but they haven't. Makes you wonder. Is God just plain mean, evil even, for not giving everyone on Earth a clear cut message or does Biblegod just not exist? Food for thought."
God requests that his people love him of their own free will. They have to come to Him past the reticule and naysayers and find Him. And it's not difficult. Most people find God when they hit the bottom and they let their souls cry out.. God hears. God acts, He blesses them and helps them out of the darkness. While you sit here and "encourage ex-Chirstains" Thousands of people are saved everyday across the world. Egomaniac.. maybe.. I take it as a compliment. If I come off as sounding like I know what I"m talking about, then thank you. *bows*
I"m going to make a while new comment just for Mr. David. Ready?
2. Having fun blaming God for your problems? Would explaining what sin was to them make it any better? No. God chose to tell them that they would die. (He ment their soul would "die" or lose touch with God.) I'm sorry. I do not know the exacts of why God did what he did. But to be honest I don't care. If you want to research it more. Read "The Life of Adam and Eve." It is a biography that was compiled about the lives of the First couple.
3. Nice job with that one. Here what could have happened if God acted on that incident. Maybe when you go to take that shortcut, there'll be a tree in the road. Maybe the little girl will be distracted by a man with balloons. Maybe He'll send one of the angels to stop you by driving in front of you and stopping so the girl doesn't get hurt, or one of them stops the girl.
You complain about God being uncaring when He doesn't answer your prayers, you complain about God being fickle or whatever big word you used for when He does answer you. What answer do you want?.
4: Look, I don't know everything. I may have misread that... I don't know.
"7+8: Yes, God called on people to write the book for him. Surprising? No. Everything after the first part of the Bible was done by or through man. Why? I don't know. But I trust God to take care of everything. And if you worry about trusting things written by man.. then do you not trust history books? Biographies? Written Law?
9: An honest prayer. That's what Jesus spoke of. A prayer spoken with understanding and without any sin or personal want inside will bring forth the will of God to you by the rules of the second covadent. So I'm sorry that Grandmaw didn't wake up when you prayed for it, or you didn't get that bike or whatever prayer God didn't answer when you were young, but you must trust that it was done with your joyfulness in mind.
10: I'm sorry that all missionarries forget to bring cameras along with them. But I'm sure you'll try to debunk whatever they film so.... I'm glad they don't. It's their job to spread the message. And my job to answer your questions. And that brings me to another point.. why is this person asking for help with these questions... at a site.. that hates God? I"m a bit confused on that one.
I repeat: If you want to converse with the people here, do it HERE. Or even better, on the forums, where there's a whole board dedicated for you and other Christians who want to try to convert the heathens. It's probably more effective than replying to a post that's over seven years old. (You did notice the date, right? Or were you so offended at the concept of people questioning the Bible that you skipped over that detail?)
I'll leave the other points for others, but I do want to address your third point. There are people here who were preachers, pastors. People here who have spent decades of their life working in God's church, preaching God's word. Many people here, myself included, have read the Bible, cover to cover - often more than once. We've studied its history, the origins of it. The additions, the translations, everything. Your assumption that nobody here has read it in its 'entirity' would be insulting, if it weren't so laughable.
One final point - your words and your actions represent you. By not running them through a simple spellchecker (or using a browser with one built in), it says that you don't care about how your words appear to the audience. You just want to say them, and get harassed by the responses, so you earn your martyr merit badge and brag to your friends how "The meanie atheists beat me up! Matthew 10:22 is true!"
I'm not good at this sort of discussion. I prefer one on one, using IMing. Too much information and I can't keep up. Just email me, please. You can post the emails on the forums, I don't care. I just want to talk to people who want to listen and learn. I'm willing to bet that most of you are ex-Christians because of a misunderstanding in the bible or because you didn't get a prayer answered, I can help if you let me. Just email me. Please.
Take your "bows" and head offstage.
We are generally better people because of walking away. You most assuredly do not come across as knowing what you are talking about. And you are very rude if you do not take the suggestion that Parse has made and take this to the forums. That is where it would be apprpriate.
This blog is for exChristians and you should respect that. You are, again, being rude.
Be doubley sorry---you don't even "know" that "God" exists, let alone, what his/her/its motives are.
"But to be honest I don't care[what "God" did/does]."
I'm convinced, for if you actually cared, you'd denounce said "God" when/if it acted immorally, as opposed to slavishly serving it when it does.
"If you want to research it more. Read 'The Life of Adam and Eve.' It is a biography that was compiled about the lives of the First couple."
Lol! Compiled from whAT?
In any instruction there is an implicit assumption that the person will feel some requirement to follow it. What requirement could Adam and Eve possibly have? How can someone who has absolutely no knowledge of right or wrong do wrong. If disobeying God was such a terrible sin, putting Adam and Eve in a situation where they could while they were unequipped to know that they shouldn't is a worse one. That is the action of either a supremely stupid god, or a vilely malevolent one.
2. I don't blame non-existent things for my problems and if I were to I'd pick UFOs or the reptilian illuminati since they are frankly more believable.
Adam and Eve committed could not choose to sin, since they did not know what sin was to choose it, hence they committed no sin by choice. But if they committed no sin by choice what was God so up in his hat about?
3. Doesn't matter, if God influences things so as to bring about his plan, those actions will have consequences. Those consequences are no fault of mine or anyone else on Earth but are a direct result of God's interference. The only way God could act without making himself complicit in the sins of man is if he knew the future course of events perfectly; in which case there is predestination but no longer free-will.
What if the tree in the road makes someone late and they take it out on an underling at work and they go home and lose it with their partner and she ends up dead. God's actions have brought about a murder, will he be sending himself to Hell for it?
BTW, I don't complain about imaginary beings doing or not doing things, since they are imaginary. Nor do I pray to them.
7+8. Quite a lot of what is in the history books is wrong, or is just unsupported opinion. Fortunately we can check sources, search for corroborating evidence, etc. We don't have to take history on faith.
9. Jesus said a lot of things that are fairly obviously not true. Why? Why say "ask and it shall be given to you" when it won't? Why say "[believers] will drink poison and not be harmed" when they will?
You have implied that God (might) tell lies, the bible has mistakes in it and that what Jesus said needs to be interpreted in light of reasonable expectation, which is just another way of saying reality trumps faith. Hardly a ringing endorsement of Christianity to be frank.
10. Yeah, funny that. It's like how UFOs never seem to show up in good lighting conditions in front of anyone with a high quality camera. So all these things happen, you say, but no-one has to back this up? Do you even comprehend how weak that sounds?
I don't hate God any more than you hate Darth Vader, and for the same reason.
About your point #3=
"Few men who spent their lives to debunk God remained Atheists for long."
You are 100% brainwashed and WRONG !
You've got it assbackwards ......when man goes outside the box to read Science, History & discoveries, his mind opens up and he realizes that biblegod never existed! How about YOU trying that, try reading something other than your religious propaganda for a change.
Start out with "Letter To A Christian Nation" by Sam Harris ( same name as you! )....be brave & read it.
2. Apology accepted, I deal quite a lot with people for whom English is not their first language so I'm used to it anyway.
3. "The Bible is the living word of God. Of any of you can can muster the strength to tear yourselves away from this and read the bible to it's entirity." Calling something the "living word" is meaningless. Whereas in business a "living document" would refer to one that is still being updated and hence currently in a state of flux, this is exactly the opposite of what is claimed of the bible. Also I have read the bible several times in several versions, and studied theology for several years.
What you are doing is called "projecting", you want your opponents to be ignorant of the bible and God, and you wish that they would convert on reading the bible. When quite often the opposite is true. There are some atheists who covert to Christianity, yes, just as there are atheists who convert to most any religion. But equally there are atheists who have spent years "debunking God" who are still atheists, and people whose bible studies lead them to lose their faith. Also many atheists who live in pretty much any western society are frequently witnessed to, proselytised to, prayed at, barracked and assaulted with "killer arguments" for God. It is because these arguments are so weak that they still are atheists. The intention of apologetics and theodicy is not to convert the unbeliever but to quell doubts in the faithful.
4. When God said, "you shall die." He meant spiritually. Of course anyone can play that game. Once you ladle metaphorical interpretation of the text onto the bible it loses all meaning, not only is the "living word" full of lies and errors, but also word-games and equivocation.
Which is rather the point. No-one takes the bible literally, not even Fundamentalists, they interpret the bible to mean something then apply their interpretation more or less rigidly is all. Moreover, your interpretation is extremely shaky, the most cursory glance at the language of the bible shows it was not written with simplicity and clarity in mind. Had God said "and on that day I shall surly cast you out of Eden and curse you and banish you from my presence", that would be understood by all, a metaphor would not.
5. "If I come off as sounding like I know what I"m talking about, then thank you" Unfortunately you don't. There are plenty of people who've hit rock bottom and not been helped up. There are plenty who've sat in blackest night and begged God for help and not received it. Of course, maybe God didn't want to help them, or maybe they didn't pray hard enough, or used the wrong prayer or something. The problem with saying God lifts up the needy is that it is patently not true for a vast number of the needy, so to an objective viewer it makes God look either impotent or malevolent.
As a start, spend a bit of time watching Evid3nce's videos on his life as a Christian, his attempts to bring a deconvert back "into the fold" and his own eventual deconversion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOmSYHzeoNA
Sadly I doubt I shall see your reply. As you say "I am speaking to those who you think you are protecting," it is quite obvious that you are trying to proselytise, or rather parasitise, people having a crisis of faith. It is that you less interested in the cause of that crisis than in halting it that is the most appalling aspect of your actions.
Elsewhere I jokingly compared ExC to AA, but let's run with that analogy for a minute. What you are doing is equivalent to turning up at an AA meeting, roaring drunk and stinking of alcohol, then waving a bottle of Wild Irish Rose and singing advertising jingles for beer in between exhorting everyone there to come on a binge with you.
If someone did that, do you think them admitting that they were really only talking to new members who might still be feeling a bit of withdrawal would come over as a positive thing?
Mark, your highest duty is to yourself, and that duty is to live an authentic, fully-examined life that accords with reality.
"I will be victorious through my Lord...."
No, Mark. You will simply reach the end of your life, lose consciousness, and forget that you were ever a Christian.
Mark,
What is your authority for that assertion?
Mark,
What is your authority for that assertion. I believe the Hebrew word used for die is the word that we all understand to mean die, cease to be, etc.
It is a great shame that the only argument you can close with is an insult. You might turn your talents in critical analysis to the doctrines and ogmas you espouse. Xianity is so full of bugs, holes, contradictions and downright lies that you would profit from examining it carefully.
Peace,
David
He neither listens NOR learns.
Ol' boy may have an advanced degree in scatology, esp. if well versed in the holy bile.
A few scat subscriptions, may be just the thing to keep him religiously focused ;-)
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)
Peace
D8
"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)
If Mark is a liberal xtian, he may be more open to engulfing such cuisine from anyone willing to engage, but… if he’s one of those uptight persnickety xtians, he’ll prefer to eat & drink his own!!!
I imagine Mark’s Heaven is something akin to pearly gates, streets of gold, and easy pull-pan port-o-potties on every corner :-)
Crucify you? Nah.... We might laugh at you and your silly beliefs. We will speak the truth about the insanity of christianity and its followers. Heck, we might even thank you for reminding us how happy we are to have escaped from the mindless cult of christianity. Those who are decieved (sic) and deluded by christinsanity deserve pity -- not everlasting, but until you wake up. You deserve to escape from the delusional nightmare and make the most of the one life you have.
But it's not going to happen until you make the first move: take off your god-goggles. I dare you.
And I've already won, I am free of silly superstitions like yours. My mind is not shackled, my eyes are not blinkered and I do not beg on my knees to be saved from imaginary monsters.
The only person in life you had to overcome was yourself. The you that believes in magic and make believe, that will shout down reality and instead embrace fantasy. The you that is still scared of the dark, and of loneliness, and refuses to your very core to acknowledge your own mortality.
That was who you had to beat, afollower, but instead you have let your wishes and fears rule you, control you and ultimately confine you. I will not go to hell when I die, but you will not set foot outside of it while you live, not unless you find the road back to the real world, as so many here have done.
Frankly, I can think of much better uses for three nails. Go away, you creepy little masochist.
I don't believe anyone here who has posted "hates" you. Annoyed, pity, tired of the self righteous behavior, and persecution complex.
1. As commonly taught in first grade, the first word in a sentence should ALWAYS start with a capital (uppercase) letter.
2. A rule of spelling, commonly taught in second grade is, "i before e, except after c or when sounded as a in neighbor or weigh."
Apparently, you are still stuck in pre-school mode. Are you looking forward to Santa's visit next month?
Perhaps, but according to you, your god wont pity them; he'll subject them to everlasting torment.
Because they're addicts, and what you're all doing here is the worst thing you can possibly do to an addict - challenge his/her belief system. How dare you make them see things they don't want to see!
To a Christian, freedom of speech means he has the freedom to tell you, ad nauseum, that he's right and you're wrong.
Perhaps you could display your love, in a meaningful way:
Deny yourself and don't waste any more of your time talking ineffectually to a probably non-existent and definitely uninterested deity.
No? Thought not. So much for your self-sacrificial loving, then.
Peace,
David
My theory is that fundies drop in on these ancient threads so they can say something trite and stupid that, they hope, will be noticed by their god but not by anyone else so they can rack up some brownie points to be cashed in when they get to heaven without having to actually, you know, defend their faith from an onslaught of intelligent, well-educated ex-christians.
Oh well. Blaire has done her christian duty so it's bye-bye time for now. Maybe she'll be back in 2018.
Unless, of course, she has been ruptured in the meantime.
Prove it. In fact, prove he even exists. Now, expecting your reply, it is true that I cannot prove Jesus does not exist, no more than you can prove every other god invented by mankind does not exist. And don't give me any cr@p about faith. The hindu's have faith in Brahma, and you deny the existence of all hindu gods, so faith is proof of nothing.
Secondly, I will be in your prayers...
Go for it, babe. My mother has been praying for me to "see the light" for years. Are you more important than my mother? Are you lips closer to god's ear than my crazy, religious mother? Sure they are, dearie, the light of god shines only for you. But I don't really care, go ahead and pray for me. Pray I see the light. But keep in touch. Check-in with me in a week. A year. Thirty years. I can't wait to hear your excuse for why your prayers have yet to be answered; why gods hasn't changed my mind and made me see the light.
I want you to pray. I want to you to watch. I want you to see how little effect your petty whispers to a non-existent deity have.
Well, since your biblegod, a) presumably knows everything, including, what every nonbeliever would accept as convincing evidence to become a believer, and b) presumably has "a plan", then guest whAT?.... your "prayers" are huge waste of time.
And I simply do not believe that you actually love Me in a way that I would find meaningful or even pleasant.
Have fun talking to yourself and pretending that you're actually doing something important.
"I've grown up in a christian home and have recently thought about a lot of these questions. I go to a bible college and a lot of what I learn actually just deepens my questions. I would honestly like to know some the answers, not to pick on anyone but because I like to know what I'm supposed to believe."
confused,
If you live in America, you live in a country where many men and women fought and died for the right to think for themselves, free of churches and Kings telling them "what they must believe".
Don't ever ask "What am I supposed to believe?"
Question everything, and come to your own conclusions!
That computer that you have between your ears, is a beautiful thing, when it is not stunted by the dictates of a religious cult.
Dano
http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/may21/index.html
... unless Jesus is a no-show AGAIN.
In other words, party at my house on May 22, 2011!
In church we would think it was just plain silly the different practices every other culture had in the past and present to appease this "god" they were afraid of. Xtians do the same thing.
In other words, when I started having questions and doubts, I started reading whatever I could. I started reading books written by authors that weren't born againers. You and I both know that that is frowned upon by the one true church. I went from that to books by people who had left xtianity. Now no books are off limits. Fear is breed by ignorance. So is control. Pay attention to all the other societies that control their populations by ignorance. It was a real eye opener when I realized that the church does the same thing, no matter what religion you belong to. Fear stifles knowledge. Leave the xtian college, and be in an environment that encourages free thinking. There is nothing more important than that. Come to your own conclusions as to what YOU want to believe based on knowledge, not fear.
"Thou hast made us for Thyself, O God, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee".
God loves all people and He sent His one and only Son as a sacrifice for all. All who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. But some will choose not to believe.
My hope is in God. My question is:
What hope is there in life apart from our Creator, God?
I think I will keep my hopes to myself today. You wouldn't understand them anyway.
At least this one didn't call us douchebags (yet) -- lol.
I have as much hope in biblegod as I have in any other imaginary being. None. Yet I still have lots of hope -- in my fellow human beings based on the actions of those very real people.
I once told someone who was proselytizing me the following; he couldn't get it through his skull that his irate, finger-pointing reaction only strengthened my case, but maybe you can actually see my point.
Most of us are ex-christians because of our INDIVIDUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, in the same way that you are a christian because of your INDIVIDUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. Even within christianity, people search for specific denominations that conform most closely to what resonates to the individual . . . ie, that which reflects where they are in their life based on their INDIVIDUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE.
Coming onto this site and telling us scripture (that 99% of us have already read and have found not to be true for us) will not help "bring us back to the fold." All it does is confirm anew the negative experiences we have had with christians, where they barge sight-unseen into our space or life and try and give us unsolicited advice into how to live our life without knowing anything about us or our INDIVIDUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE.
I tried to explain this to an unfortunate Messianic Jew who was staying at my parents' house and began to mercilessly proselytize me (while also arrogantly scoffing that the only reason he was staying with us was because my parents' were throwing thousands of dollars at him and his wife each year for their "ministry" with campus crusade). Clearly he could not see that his actions spoke louder than his words, and his inability to back off, resist the urge to shake his finger at me and tell me I was going to hell (which he did, as a guest in my family's home) tipped the scales in me calling myself someone who believed in god in my own way to someone who does not believe in god at all.
Be careful, you're not racking up as many brownie points with god as you think you are with your crazy, out-of-context proclamations.
Dolly, I contend that the last two words in that comment were unnecessary.
Guest, your scriptures lie.
They promised your saviour would return within the lifetimes of his listeners.
They promised that whatever was asked in Jesus' name would be granted.
They promised that breeding goats in front of notched sticks would determine the nature of the coats of the offspring.
Can you not see the lies that your scriptures tell you? So many lies that we, who once believed them so wholeheartedly, and gave up much of our lives preaching and witnessing on their behalf, have rejected them as demonstrable lies.
Can you not see that you are being duped into parting with your money for a promise that has no chance of being fulfilled, because those who, it is claimed, made the promises have never yet once delivered on them?
You are being fleeced by people who would rather take form you than do an honest day's toil. So good are they at their deception that they have convinced society that they, the priests and ministers, should be accorded respect and honour as men of god, yet they cannot demonstrate the power of their god. They can only make vague promises, using weasel words they learned in mission school, words which I once learned how to use and did, until I found out the dishonesty and the fraud of the whole undertaking.
Your religion is a construct created by men for the purpose of fleecing, subjugation and controlling other men. No gods are necessary to this undertaking. It is only necessary that you, and millions of others, are convinced there are gods.
You see, a believer and his money are easily parted, as many of us here found out to our cost when we were believers. Please do not tread the path we trod as fools for christ. It sucks you dry as you give up yourself and your resources to charlatans who sell you baseless hope from the pulpit every Sunday.
Please read your scriptures and ask your god to explain the blood he he is said to have spilt therein.
Read the words and ask why your god cannot keep what are claimed to be his promises.
Ask yourself why your children get a better deal from you than you get from your heavenly father.
Ask yourself why he is punishing you for the actions of his first-created, who did not know they were sinning until after they had eaten the fruit.
If you still feel it is right to kill homosexuals, stone rebellious children to death, that god was justified in murdering innocent children by drowning, and that being mauled to death my a bear is fit punishment for children who laugh at a man's baldness then there seriously is no hope for you other than divine intervention, but do not hold your breath - your god does not live up to his word, yet his priests regularly stoop to his level of morality.
Peace,
David
If they were innocent like children them god, like any loving parent, would have been watching over them and steering them away from things which would hurt them, until they had grown up and acquired knowledge and experience to make their own decisions.
If the were innocent like children then they had not reached that stage, so god was, by inaction, being an abusive parent.
You worship a social deviant like that?!?!?
I no longer have any pity or compassion for you. You are old enough to tell the difference between good and bad behaviour, yet you worship a mythical being with no sense of right or wrong.
You really should seek treatment. Your moral compass is broken.
Dolly, I contend that the last two words in that comment were unnecessary. (end quote)
Hi David,
I agree, but the point I'm hoping "guest" will stop and think about is that religion is a game of "true for you" - as much as Christians deny this reality. It is the life experiences that "make scripture come alive" for a believer just the same scripture slowly died to those of us able to more objectively examine it for what it is - ancient myth that has no relevance to the world today whatsoever.
What irks me is when christians try and argue the veracity of their belief system without being able to comprehend that, in the end, you cannot argue with someone's life experience. When I indulged the messianic jew, I prefaced many sentences with "my own life experience has led me to . . ." and still begged the question with statements like "everything in the bible can be proven, so that makes it true". Even when I stealthily dropped in that the disrespect of christians was a huge turnoff, he cut off his nose to spite his face by shaking his finger at me, not realizing that his own behavior was disrespectful and only served to reinforce my very correct beliefs about the arrogance of christians.
Sorry, kind of turned into a rant :(
We don't do human sacrifice here, Guest. We strive for a much higher morality than "If you don't ritually kill something for me, I'll have to torture you for eternity."
"But some will choose not to believe."
(reaches for Clue-By-Four™)
*BONK*
Belief or disbelief is not a choice.
"What hope is there in life apart from our Creator, God? "
Hope is the denial of reality. That reality is this: There is no evidence for your god, and no evidence for life after death.
Furthermore, if you need a supernatural woo-woo buddy to give your life meaning, you're doing it wrong.
Go away.
That is great and fine for you, BUT, you need to respect the beliefs of others around you. The arrogance you, and we ourselves had at one time, is that your beliefs are the only correct ones, and whoever does not agree with you, is wrong.
What do you mean in hope. What hope is there apart from god. What is that statement supposed to mean? Hope in a being that doesn't exist? How can you live your life waiting?
I did believe for twenty years. Hoping and waiting on this god to make himself real to me. It never happened. I no longer have to live this suspended half life anymore. Waiting, and waiting. There is no god. That made my life so much more hopeful and worth living.
I do not hate you. One principle I learned as a xian was this:
Hate the delusion, love the deluded!
You have my pity and my compassion, but mostly you have my empathy. WHY? Because I have been where you are - I was deluded, robbed of my right to think and make decisions by a system that needs to control me or its hierarchy starves.
I know how it feels to be as helpless and hopeless as you are.
I know how it feels to believe that I am worthless and to have that feeling relieved by belief in a mythical saviour.
For these and many other reasons I do not hate, but empathize.
I abhor and detest your religion. Your god and your saviour are myths or, at best, concept awaiting evidence, so I waste no time or energy hating them.
You, I have compassion for and look forward to reports of your escape from the greed of the charlatans.
Peace,
David
to answer #3, that is part of the majesty and love of God. God lowers Himself and cares about what we think and how we act. The Western idea of God comes from Aristotle, "the unmoved mover". But that is not the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Jesus. Our God is a God who cares deeply for our lives and loves all of His creation, so he limits Himself. He does this because it is the only way He can be in true relationship and communion with us. Now many people think that this is limiting God's power and abolishes His sovereignty, but I say that a God who is willing to limit His own power in able to be in communication with His creation is more powerful than one who is unwilling to make himself vulnerable to His own creation (you know, first shall be last sort of thing).
Now how does this relate to prayer? Prayer, at it's heart, is communication with God. Think about it this way: If you and a friend NEVER talk, how can you have a relationship? And the more you talk, the stronger your relationship will be (and vise versa). So why pray? Because God DOES change His mind and that is part of what makes Him sovereign. I'm laughing as I write this because, once again, God flips our notions of Himself on their heads.
If you are not convinced that God changes His mind, look all throughout Israel's history, in particular Exodus 32.
If this idea of the creator changing His mind because of something that the creation does challenges/disturbs you, I want to remind you again that that concept comes completely from Aristotle, and not the Bible.
Disclaimer: That is not to say that God is MANIPULATED by His creation, just that he is in covenant and relationship with it.
If you have questions/comments/reflections/curses/whatever, my email is FMustangGT1965@yahoo.com. I would love to hear them and discuss them with you. I certainly don't have all the answers and still have many questions myself.
Grace and Peace
2. Having fun blaming God for your problems? Would explaining what sin was to them make it any better? No. God chose to tell them that they would die. (He ment their soul would "die" or lose touch with God.) I'm sorry. I do not know the exacts of why God did what he did. But to be honest I don't care. If you want to research it more. Read "The Life of Adam and Eve." It is a biography that was compiled about the lives of the First couple.
3. Nice job with that one. Here what could have happened if God acted on that incident. Maybe when you go to take that shortcut, there'll be a tree in the road. Maybe the little girl will be distracted by a man with balloons. Maybe He'll send one of the angels to stop you by driving in front of you and stopping so the girl doesn't get hurt, or one of them stops the girl.
You complain about God being uncaring when He doesn't answer your prayers, you complain about God being fickle or whatever big word you used for when He does answer you. What answer do you want?.
4: Look, I don't know everything. I may have misread that... I don't know.
"7+8: Yes, God called on people to write the book for him. Surprising? No. Everything after the first part of the Bible was done by or through man. Why? I don't know. But I trust God to take care of everything. And if you worry about trusting things written by man.. then do you not trust history books? Biographies? Written Law?
9: An honest prayer. That's what Jesus spoke of. A prayer spoken with understanding and without any sin or personal want inside will bring forth the will of God to you by the rules of the second covadent. So I'm sorry that Grandmaw didn't wake up when you prayed for it, or you didn't get that bike or whatever prayer God didn't answer when you were young, but you must trust that it was done with your joyfulness in mind.
10: I'm sorry that all missionarries forget to bring cameras along with them. But I'm sure you'll try to debunk whatever they film so.... I'm glad they don't. It's their job to spread the message. And my job to answer your questions. And that brings me to another point.. why is this person asking for help with these questions... at a site.. that hates God? I"m a bit confused on that one.
Anyways, I'm glad you're here to explain what God 'ment' by dieing. If only he had some sort of book that he could write down his official interpretation in.
Oh wait, he does. How do we know your interpretation of that verse is correct, and not that of any of the other 38,000 Christian Denominations? Why shouldn't we read the words that are actually written down?
So god leaves his "boys" behind travels back and forth through time, see's what a mess he's made, but comes back and asked how it all works out, he tells his "boys", I've done a SPLENDID job! Couldn't work out better?
It's all this logical thinking that just screws up the whole story. And it is a story.
Unsupported assertion: No evidence for entity 'God.'
"When God said, 'you shall die,' He meant spiritually."
Unsupported assertion: No evidence for 'spirit'; therefore, 'spiritual death' is just superstitious bafflegab. Furthermore, if spirits can actually die, what's all this heaven/hell nonsense?
"Most people find God when they hit the bottom and they let their souls cry out... God hears."
No; that's usually the moment at which the unconscious mind goes into panic mode. This makes people psychologically very vulnerable. Some individuals revert to their childhood indoctrination and hear 'the voice of God' in their own heads, or some proselytizing S.O.B. steers them towards a church. This is not proof for gods, but it is substantial evidence that many of the religiously deluded have no scruples about brainwashing vulnerable people rather than helping them live successfully in the real world.
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