Not ready to be nice
(Available as a 
)
Why are you so angry? It doesn’t make sense to be angry about God, since you don’t believe there is a God. You people are like talking to robots that only repeat their programming. I feel so sad for you. You haven’t truly experienced Jesus or you would never say the things you say. I accept that you don’t believe, but why be disrespectful of someone else’s religion? I don’t get it, why would you need encouragement in your ex-Christianity?
Various Christians regularly post these kinds of questions and quips to http://ExChristian.Net.
Since http://ExChristian.Net first went live, Christians of all denominational affiliations have posted remarks accusing ex-Christians of being bitter, unwilling to listen, not open to discussion, angry at God, angry at church, angry at Christians, or just plain angry. This emotional feeling about Christianity, say these Christians, is probably a sign that ex-Christians really know that Christianity is true. These Christians claim that if ex-Christians are truly free from religion, then they would retain no animosity toward, or interest in, Christianity. Ex-Christians, supposedly, should be able to peacefully live life, tolerant of all those who preach the Gospel, without ever expressing any negativity about Christianity. Any lingering resentment, say these Christians, shows that ex-Christians, deep down, still believe in Jesus.
Unfortunately, Christians are not the only ones who misunderstand an Ex-Christian’s frustration. Atheists, who have never had the misfortune of being entangled in the web of Christianity, occasionally level similar censures.
Margaret Thaler Singer, PhD, a clinical psychologist and former professor of psychology at UC Berkeley, did ground-breaking research on the brainwashing of American soldiers captured during the Korean War. She was often sought out by lawyers as an expert witness in high-profile cases, including the People's Temple and the mass murder-suicide at Jonestown, Guyana, as well as the Branch Davidian and Heaven's Gate cults. Over the years, she interviewed more than 4,000 current and former cult members, including Charles Manson and many of his followers. The terms post-cult trauma or post-cult syndrome were first used by Singer to describe the intense emotional problems that some cult members experience at de-conversion. According to her, abandoning a cult can be traumatic for former cult members.
For those who aren’t used to thinking of Christianity as a cult, I should probably stop here and explain. The word cult is widely used in today’s conversations to describe new religious movements outside the mainstream. These “cults” often use some form of mind-control, or brainwashing to keep adherents faithful. Although many so-called cults differ little from many mainstream religions, political correctness avoids using the negative connotations associated with the word “cult” when referencing religions with a rich history and a large following. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc, are not called cults, because they are all considered mainstream religions, and political correctness demands they always be addressed respectfully. Modern Christianity is unquestionably within the mainstream in the 21st century, but it cannot be denied that Christianity was once a new religion, a brand new cult, with beliefs that were considered quite strange by the rest of society. It seems that a cult becomes transformed into an accepted religion if the cult attracts enough followers and survives long enough. I would posit that all religions start out as cults and can accurately be called cults as long as they exist, regardless of their comparative popularity or widespread acceptance. While most mainstream Christian churches do not practice the aggressive mind-control tactics of the newer cults, a true Christian is still expected to attend church regularly, attend home meetings, get involved with ministry outreach, spend time in personal prayer and study, lead family devotions, tithe regularly, hang out with Christians, read Christian books, avoid worldly entertainment, be transformed by the renewing of the mind… The list could go on, and as any “true Christian™ knows, that list is long.
Here’s an excerpt from a recent comment posted on http://exchristian.net by a young teen who considers himself to be a true believer:
Regrettably, whether this young man or his family called it religious indoctrination, catechism, or whatever, he has been brainwashed. That washing may have been accomplished gradually over the course of several years, but it was, nonetheless, accomplished.
So, if religious training can be described as a kind of brainwashing, so what? Why the anger? Why the bitterness? Why the visceral language? Why all the venting?
The answer is simple:the trauma of leaving Christianity is no different than the trauma experienced from leaving a modern, spiritually abusive, mind-control cult.
From Wikipedia:
Another branch that could be included in this list is Christian Reconstructionism.
When a person is in a long-term, abusive relationship, nearly everything that happens within that relationship seems normal. How often do abused wives believe they deserve the abuse? How often do abused children deny that anything is wrong? However, once that person has left the abusive relationship, behavior that once seemed routine is soon recognized as aberrant. Since religious cultic behavioral patterns are meant to envelope every part of person’s life—friends, family, money, social experiences, literature, entertainment, thoughts, etc.—when a person leaves a cultic womb, that person leaves behind a significant portion of life, and it can hurt. Then, when a vigilant cultist knocks on the door to parrot rhetoric now understood as the language of abuse, such as when a Christian starts inanely preaching about hell, sin and the need to repent, it can be like pushing a button or emotional trigger in the de-convert. Such insensitivity on the part of the Christian will likely be viewed as a personal attack and could very well be met with exasperation, resentment, or even aggressive resistance. Besides, at the very least, unsolicited preaching is annoying.
Allowing ex-Christians to express their frustrations in a virtual atmosphere of anonymity gives those who are hurting the chance to clear the air, vent, meet others with similar experiences, and in time analyze, reassess and heal from the abuse. While a Christian might be offended by disparaging comments leveled at Christianity, no one is forced to read or listen to what is shared here. Most ex-Christians, regardless of whether struggling with de-conversion issues or not, do not want to shout down believers at work, or family members at home, or strangers on the street. Airing grievances among like-minded people can be a great relief. For some, de-conversion places them not just outside the church, but outside of family, outside of friendships, or even outside the community where they live. For personal reasons, many de-converts keep their de-conversion a secret, and therefore have no one with whom to discuss the issues they’re facing. This forum provides a haven-of-sorts to those people. Sometimes, just the knowledge that you’re not alone can be a comfort, an encouragement.
Most people do not convert on a whim. They don’t wake up one day and blandly decide, “Today I’ll become a Christian.” Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience. De-conversion works similarly, but in reverse. True converts do not one day suddenly wake up and insipidly deny the faith. True converts who de-convert go through weeks, months or years of agonizing soul-searching before coming to the conclusion that Christianity is false. While conversion to Christianity is begun with an emotional episode followed by logical reasons to maintain belief, the pattern of de-conversion is frequently begun with the realization that "the faith" has illogical holes. Through those holes tumbles emotional fallout. The early joy of conversion at “accepting the truth” is often mirrored by disappointment, depression, or anger at discovering the "real truth" at de-conversion. While there is a measure of relief and freedom when the bonds of religious slavery are finally broken, all the torn life connections can rend ugly, emotional scars.
Reformed alcoholics and smokers frequently become the most ardent campaigners against their former addictions. Similarly, committed Christian converts frequently become the most passionate apostates.
A piece of advice to the Christian who feels compelled to post responses on this website: Realize that most of the former Christians you are communicating with here have been saturated with every apologetic you might present. None have left the faith easily, and none have left without some degree of emotional scarring. Many of those scars haven’t healed. If you decide that it is your heavenly mission to open those wounds afresh, expect that you may receive a biting response.
) Why are you so angry? It doesn’t make sense to be angry about God, since you don’t believe there is a God. You people are like talking to robots that only repeat their programming. I feel so sad for you. You haven’t truly experienced Jesus or you would never say the things you say. I accept that you don’t believe, but why be disrespectful of someone else’s religion? I don’t get it, why would you need encouragement in your ex-Christianity?
Various Christians regularly post these kinds of questions and quips to http://ExChristian.Net.
Since http://ExChristian.Net first went live, Christians of all denominational affiliations have posted remarks accusing ex-Christians of being bitter, unwilling to listen, not open to discussion, angry at God, angry at church, angry at Christians, or just plain angry. This emotional feeling about Christianity, say these Christians, is probably a sign that ex-Christians really know that Christianity is true. These Christians claim that if ex-Christians are truly free from religion, then they would retain no animosity toward, or interest in, Christianity. Ex-Christians, supposedly, should be able to peacefully live life, tolerant of all those who preach the Gospel, without ever expressing any negativity about Christianity. Any lingering resentment, say these Christians, shows that ex-Christians, deep down, still believe in Jesus.
Unfortunately, Christians are not the only ones who misunderstand an Ex-Christian’s frustration. Atheists, who have never had the misfortune of being entangled in the web of Christianity, occasionally level similar censures.
Margaret Thaler Singer, PhD, a clinical psychologist and former professor of psychology at UC Berkeley, did ground-breaking research on the brainwashing of American soldiers captured during the Korean War. She was often sought out by lawyers as an expert witness in high-profile cases, including the People's Temple and the mass murder-suicide at Jonestown, Guyana, as well as the Branch Davidian and Heaven's Gate cults. Over the years, she interviewed more than 4,000 current and former cult members, including Charles Manson and many of his followers. The terms post-cult trauma or post-cult syndrome were first used by Singer to describe the intense emotional problems that some cult members experience at de-conversion. According to her, abandoning a cult can be traumatic for former cult members.
For those who aren’t used to thinking of Christianity as a cult, I should probably stop here and explain. The word cult is widely used in today’s conversations to describe new religious movements outside the mainstream. These “cults” often use some form of mind-control, or brainwashing to keep adherents faithful. Although many so-called cults differ little from many mainstream religions, political correctness avoids using the negative connotations associated with the word “cult” when referencing religions with a rich history and a large following. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc, are not called cults, because they are all considered mainstream religions, and political correctness demands they always be addressed respectfully. Modern Christianity is unquestionably within the mainstream in the 21st century, but it cannot be denied that Christianity was once a new religion, a brand new cult, with beliefs that were considered quite strange by the rest of society. It seems that a cult becomes transformed into an accepted religion if the cult attracts enough followers and survives long enough. I would posit that all religions start out as cults and can accurately be called cults as long as they exist, regardless of their comparative popularity or widespread acceptance. While most mainstream Christian churches do not practice the aggressive mind-control tactics of the newer cults, a true Christian is still expected to attend church regularly, attend home meetings, get involved with ministry outreach, spend time in personal prayer and study, lead family devotions, tithe regularly, hang out with Christians, read Christian books, avoid worldly entertainment, be transformed by the renewing of the mind… The list could go on, and as any “true Christian™ knows, that list is long.
Here’s an excerpt from a recent comment posted on http://exchristian.net by a young teen who considers himself to be a true believer:
“i im a cristian an i always will be i accepted jesus(my savior) into my heart and age 8 and i am now 15.
We (humans) are full of sin. there is not one little bit of us thats not full of sin.
the punishment for this sin is that we must go to hell and burn but, god sent his one and only son down to earth to live a life on earth without sin and die one a cross for us so that we could live and eternal life in heaven. there is so much truth in the bible that would prove all this to be true.
Regrettably, whether this young man or his family called it religious indoctrination, catechism, or whatever, he has been brainwashed. That washing may have been accomplished gradually over the course of several years, but it was, nonetheless, accomplished.
So, if religious training can be described as a kind of brainwashing, so what? Why the anger? Why the bitterness? Why the visceral language? Why all the venting?
The answer is simple:the trauma of leaving Christianity is no different than the trauma experienced from leaving a modern, spiritually abusive, mind-control cult.
From Wikipedia:
“Spiritual abuse is not necessarily deliberate, but may be the outcome of an over-emphasis on a particular doctrine (e.g. the teaching that everyone outside the group will go to hell) or the genuine belief that the will of God is being followed … In Christianity, spiritual abuse is most prevalent in … churches related to fundamentalism, very conservative evangelicalism and in some of the churches in the charismatic movement or Pentecostalism.”
Another branch that could be included in this list is Christian Reconstructionism.
When a person is in a long-term, abusive relationship, nearly everything that happens within that relationship seems normal. How often do abused wives believe they deserve the abuse? How often do abused children deny that anything is wrong? However, once that person has left the abusive relationship, behavior that once seemed routine is soon recognized as aberrant. Since religious cultic behavioral patterns are meant to envelope every part of person’s life—friends, family, money, social experiences, literature, entertainment, thoughts, etc.—when a person leaves a cultic womb, that person leaves behind a significant portion of life, and it can hurt. Then, when a vigilant cultist knocks on the door to parrot rhetoric now understood as the language of abuse, such as when a Christian starts inanely preaching about hell, sin and the need to repent, it can be like pushing a button or emotional trigger in the de-convert. Such insensitivity on the part of the Christian will likely be viewed as a personal attack and could very well be met with exasperation, resentment, or even aggressive resistance. Besides, at the very least, unsolicited preaching is annoying.
Allowing ex-Christians to express their frustrations in a virtual atmosphere of anonymity gives those who are hurting the chance to clear the air, vent, meet others with similar experiences, and in time analyze, reassess and heal from the abuse. While a Christian might be offended by disparaging comments leveled at Christianity, no one is forced to read or listen to what is shared here. Most ex-Christians, regardless of whether struggling with de-conversion issues or not, do not want to shout down believers at work, or family members at home, or strangers on the street. Airing grievances among like-minded people can be a great relief. For some, de-conversion places them not just outside the church, but outside of family, outside of friendships, or even outside the community where they live. For personal reasons, many de-converts keep their de-conversion a secret, and therefore have no one with whom to discuss the issues they’re facing. This forum provides a haven-of-sorts to those people. Sometimes, just the knowledge that you’re not alone can be a comfort, an encouragement.
Most people do not convert on a whim. They don’t wake up one day and blandly decide, “Today I’ll become a Christian.” Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience. De-conversion works similarly, but in reverse. True converts do not one day suddenly wake up and insipidly deny the faith. True converts who de-convert go through weeks, months or years of agonizing soul-searching before coming to the conclusion that Christianity is false. While conversion to Christianity is begun with an emotional episode followed by logical reasons to maintain belief, the pattern of de-conversion is frequently begun with the realization that "the faith" has illogical holes. Through those holes tumbles emotional fallout. The early joy of conversion at “accepting the truth” is often mirrored by disappointment, depression, or anger at discovering the "real truth" at de-conversion. While there is a measure of relief and freedom when the bonds of religious slavery are finally broken, all the torn life connections can rend ugly, emotional scars.
Reformed alcoholics and smokers frequently become the most ardent campaigners against their former addictions. Similarly, committed Christian converts frequently become the most passionate apostates.
A piece of advice to the Christian who feels compelled to post responses on this website: Realize that most of the former Christians you are communicating with here have been saturated with every apologetic you might present. None have left the faith easily, and none have left without some degree of emotional scarring. Many of those scars haven’t healed. If you decide that it is your heavenly mission to open those wounds afresh, expect that you may receive a biting response.
Comments
The last part about reopening
wounds and expect a bite in return
is correct.
I thought I was not mature enough with my reactions after all those years, but I realise it's much
deeper than that.
No more needs to be said!
We (humans) are full of sin. there is not one little bit of us thats not full of sin.
the punishment for this sin is that we must go to hell and burn but, god sent his one and only son down to earth to live a life on earth without sin and die one a cross for us so that we could live and eternal life in heaven. there is so much truth in the bible that would prove all this to be true.
When I got to typo/grammatical error number 10 before the completion of reading the second sentence of a specimen that should be entering his sophomore year of high school I had to stop. Unbelievably pathetic. Then I made myself read the rest. The last sentence is a real gem. This is just so sad.
So now we all need to do this with the concept of "the state" and we can all get better.
.........Im talking to idiots...Im tired, please leave us alone!!!!
And to Anony who mentioned alien abduction believers, they deserve some kind of credibility. At least we have video footage and pictures of UFOs that show there's a possibility that there's life on other planets. As far as the so called god and jesus of the buybull, they haven't given us anything to go on at all.
Dan
Again, as I have said many times on this website, before 1492 there was not a single bible or church on American soil. Columbus was not the first one to discover America. America was discovered many thousands of years before Columbus, by the American Indians.
The American Indians had their own culture and inter commerce, and structure and lived happily and prospered many thousands of years without the knowledge of a biblical god or jesus.
The whiteman brought over his biblical god and jesus, and killed most of the Indians, either with disease or weapons and then stole all their land in commission of the name of god and jesus, it may seem trivial to some people of today, but I happen to think it's an atrocity.
How can Christians hold their heads up and thank god for the food they eat, raised on stolen land and thank god for all the possessions that they own, when it all belongs to the American Indians.
And then Christians have the nerve to claim that America was build on Christian principles.
America needs to be educated in this area, instead of spreading their holier-than-thou Christian bullshit.
We need to back up 500 years and re-educate these self-righteous idiots.
Then they talk about Hitler, where are Christian principles any different?
Hitler massacred Jews.
Christians massacred Indians.
Where's honor in claiming to be a Christian?
If Hitler is bound straight to hell, then so are all Christians.
I would not want the title Christian attached to my moniker.
Something I would think twice about, if I claimed to be a Christian.
Oh I forgot, Christians do not think, nor do they want to.
I'm proud to be non-xtian, and not affilliated with any religion.
The word religion sparks thoughts of elitest hatred and self-fulfilling tyrany and concurring and invading peoples lands for the will of their make believe god, look what a freaking mess we've made in Iraq, we'll never be able to leave that stinking hell hole. Isn't jesus just so wonderful?
Ben, really well said about Columbus, 1492, and the land stollen from the indians. I particularly like your comparison with Hitler.
Another reason ex-christians get mad is because fundies give themselves permission to push their doctrines onto everyone else through manipulating political processes. American freedoms are constantly under attack from these people, who regard their own freedoms as the only truly valid ones.
Just how the hell do you know, mq?
We're talking about America, USA, not Mexico, not the Carribean...duh!!!
None the less, the Indians never claimed to be guided under the direction of a godly authority, as Christians do, I know it hurts mq, but you need to shake off and let go of your desire for an imaginary god, you need to let go of your childhood fantasy.
go to:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
It's not surprising that an anti-Christian would bring up the indians. People on this hell-bound site are always complaining that God in the Old Testament was cruel, too. But it's the same difference. Those caanites and all the others that our virtuous Creator saw fit to slew were all just heathens, anyways, and it's a good thing that they were slewed down to infant children, who would just have grown up to be as evil as their parents.
And, don't even get me started about the Holy Bible supporting slavery. Afican-Americans ought to get down on their knees and praise Jesus that they were brought out of sin and ignorance in Africa and taught to be Christians in America. God knows what he's doing!!!!!!!
It's not surprising that an anti-Christian would bring up the indians. People on this hell-bound site are always complaining that God in the Old Testament was cruel, too. But it's the same difference. Those caanites and all the others that our virtuous Creator saw fit to slew were all just heathens, anyways, and it's a good thing that they were slewed down to infant children, who would just have grown up to be as evil as their parents.
And, don't even get me started about the Holy Bible supporting slavery. Well, you can read it either way, but so what if it did? Afican-Americans ought to get down on their knees and praise Jesus that they were brought out of sin and ignorance in Africa and taught to be Christians in America. God knows what he's doing!!!!!!!
As for christianity and anger: What does anger me about it is the hypocrisy. As a relatively recent ex-christian (two years), I sometimes struggle with issues such as what if I'm wrong and the like, while my mother and sister are adamant about their being good christians when it's blatantly obvious they don't give a shit. But they will tell me they believe in some sort of sunday school christianity any time without a hint of blushing. That's the kind of stuff that annoys me too. I justdon't see the point of such hypocrisy.
Belinda, you can only be joking, haha! Or is it Bob Schlitz? What a kidder...
I had no idea!! I ought to go kill my son right away, he is a HunkPapa Sioux. Even worse- I am a Romani- on my mothers side! Last but not least, a damn viking decendant- my fathers side!!! LOL! I love to be alive and distrub you with my existence!!! LOL, LOL! You're so funny!
There's no such thing as an idyllic existance. Life is always a combination of ups and downs, strengths and weaknesses, possitives and negatives.
The point Ben made was that the Native Americans had a thriving, successful culture here in North America for thousands of years before any bible preachers showed up. And that Christianity, by and large, has done nothing but excuse the atrocities committed by europeans on Native Americans.
Oh, and as far as the Aztecs go, I don't think their problem was that they weren't Christian, but that they were basically fundamentalists.
Not saying this was the work of a troll (though the initials may give you some indication), but really what he/she/it said is just the logical extension of the thot that our old friend mq59 blessed us with. Think about it.
" The Native Americans did not live an idyllic existence pre-1492."
Lorena said:
Isn't it funny how the christian(s) who post here always pick on something said in the thread instead of dealing with the real issues from the main article?
BTW, I think mg59, john, and wayne are all the same person. Our "nice" christian friend just posts under different names. Or maybe it is that the brainwashing is so profound that they all "sound" the same.
we do? I quit falling for those things WAY before I had problems with a 2000 year old dead guy rising from the dead so his father won't hurt human beings. But, as far as the video/pictures. Do you have anything that can be "evaluated" by the experts? Or are you getting things off the History/Discovery/Sci/Fi Channel?
God designed us in such a way that when we encountered other cultures, our natural instinct is to compete for survival, to see which one is the smartest, the strongest, and the most capable of surviving the competition.
Whoever came out on top became gods favorites. That is why we have "IN God WE Trust" printed on our money. If the American Indian had consistently kicked all the pilgrims asses, the slogan on the money would say "IN Mother Earth WE Trust"
The white Anglo Saxon dominance in America has eroded significantly over the years, and if we survive as a nation, it will be ruled by an entirely new race of people, consisting of a mixture of American Indians, South American Aztec/Spanish (Mexicans), Chinese, etc.
The future owners of this country will have the genetic makeup of virtually every race of people in the world. I.E, Derek Jeeter, Colin Powell, Mariah Carrey, Halle Berry. There are very few "Pure" African Americans in this country. Didn't Thomas Jefferson have a child with one of his slave?
That inevitability was designed into us from the beginning. That inevitability is why we are who we are.
Dan (We must always subdue and multiply, as it says in the bible)
You know those illogical holes in Christianity that the author was talking about that cause deconversions? Well, here's one inside your own little verbal attack on us. Kill the babies of the Caananites? Because they would grow up evil??? Well tell me about those virgins that the Israelites were allowed to keep and rape as their own? Where's the logic in keeping those evil virgins? Oh right... women are property.... Christianity will burn under the light of scrutiny and logic. But to the Faithful(the blind) there are no such problems as the one i just metioned. Praise Jesus and get me a virgin from the spoils of war!!!
Thank you so much!
~Avalon
BS and BS for short!
You keep mentioning this god, well show us this god you're so damned sure that exists.
We're waiting....
Ben, quit ragging on my brothers in sisters in Christ Jesus. Mq59 is correct in stating that some indians practised human sacrifice and canabalism.
brothers and sisters in christ? where the hell did you here such bullshit?
human sacrifice, yeah they tossed virgin boys and girls into the volcanos, and the embodyment of christ, canabalism, you brainless twit.
"Dano said, God designed us in such a way that when we encountered other cultures,
You keep mentioning this god, well show us this god you're so damned sure that exists.
We're waiting...."
Dan explains:
I use the word God interchangeably with, creator, supreme being, prime mover, cause of everything, old man with a beard, father in heaven, big mucky muck, designer of human evolution, and for whatever anyone has in their mind when they are attempting to put a name to whatever lit the big fire cracker 5 billion years ago.
God is just a noun, and the ONLY meaning it has is in the mind of the person using that noun as a convenient word for describing "The Force," or designer of the universe that also exists uniquely or differently in everyone's mind or not at all.
We cannot profess to know anything about something, unless we are able to define what we are we are talking about.
I cant show you God because I don't know what God is, and neither does anyone else who has ever lived or is living now.
Dan (AGNOSTIC)
I kept thinking of all the people I could send this to help them understand the process but then I realized, from experience, that unless an individual is truly seeking out the truth, meaning that they are open to abandon any or all previously held notions (beliefs) in order to receive the hard truth, at any cost to themselves, they will not “hear” nor can they “see”.
It is identical to the experience I had at being reborn. I felt as though I had “been blind, but now I see”, or as the old book says “that a veil had been lifted”. I remember consciously having to make that decision to “open” my mind to accept what I was being told about the gospel. Until then, I was completely locked up and unable to change. So, I doubt that it would help as much as I hoped. This is how I de-converted, I was desperately seeking “the truth” beyond what mere men had revealed to me and had consciously accepted the fact that I/we could be wrong, tracing the bibles history from birth to see if any deviations from the original message could have steered the church in the wrong direction thereby influencing the modern church to believe an altered message (lie). I found what I suspected deep in my heart, which allowed my mind to be willing to open further to receive more truth.
As for the comments following the article, particularly where potential christians may have posted, and ex-christians have responded to them. I think it serves nicely as proof of the articles point. We are highly sensitive to the jargon that led us into captivity to begin with and I think that we are passionate about exterminating the influence of such atrocities much in the same way that we were excited to extinguish the influence of Hitler and other mass controlling figures who have plagued humanity.
Thanks again Dave and fellow extians for your commitment to exposing the meme.
Well done. Well done, indeed.
have we all read Dave's anti-testimony?
Dave Webmaster,
Let’s reconstruct the outcomes of your work and imagine where you'd be. All your letters to all the denominations were read and past up the line. Suddenly they all realised that Dave was right. A genius! Not to mention whilst handing out tracks many were moved by what you were doing and inquired “Dave, what must I do to be saved?”
Anyway the churches all get together and because the brilliant intellectual Dave has made them come to their senses they form the super-dooper-multi-denominational church and appoint none other than you Dave as the CEO / High priest / Grand Poobar. They also make you head of their newly founded theological department. You now do lunch with the Pope.
Everything would be different wouldn’t it Dave? No exchristian.net instead super-dooper-multi-denominational-church.com and you of course would be profiled at /grandpoobar.
It didn’t work out the way you wanted it, did it? Poor poor Dave, and after all that effort. All that study all the witnessing gone to waste. No, wait, there is a purpose. Do the next best thing head up exchristian.net. You are a mentor to thousands now. Well done Dave. And you have the ability to produce such futile arguments as “No True Christians”, aka Give me Ten Bucks and as one blogger put it “Lots of Big Malakas” (where has that blog gone Dave?) and the classic “Dear Believer” where you astound those that hang on every word that drips from your mouth with supreme logic. You certainly know everything, don’t you Dave. How could God even compete with you?
Dave, do you delete blogs you don’t like? That don’t suit you. Blogs that could offend others (but not Grand-Poobar Dave) are OK. But anything that you don’t like – axe it! Do you change blogs to make them say things they didn’t intend? Do you reorder them? It’s good to be King isn’t it Dave.
Thanks.
P.S., Dave: I enjoyed your essay very much. Too bad it won't penetrate thick skulls and narrow minds.
When I am driving and I see a stupid Jesus fish on a car I get mad and want to give the idiot the bird or if I pass a car in a parking lot with one, I have the urge to rip it off. Until I read this article (thank you Dave) I really did not realize the depth or true reason for such anger. The x-smoker analogy was what hit home. I smoked for 6 years and when I quit, I became on of the worst non-smokers. I can’t stand to be in a room with smoke (or a Christian! HA!).
Just this last weekend my in-laws were in town and my father-in-law was saying how sweet his other son’s new girlfriend is… his exact words were he…”just thinks the world of her cause she is a good Christian girl, always going to church.” I just want to poke his f—king eyes out. My husband saw my face turn red and quickly changed the subject.
Dave- thanks you again for helping my at least understand the anger … I don’t see it going away anytime soon.
go to:
http://nomorefakegods.blogspot.com/
for laughs, and to vent some too.
Thanks, Ben
Just imagine what America was like, it was at it's finest moments, no churches, no steeples, no jesus billboards, no religions no preachers, no hypocrasy, no tracts, no self-rightousness, no phoney bullshit, no parking lots, no shopping malls, no automobiles.
America was a land of pure resourses, people lived off of the land, what the land provided, that's how people survived, they did not need to run to a man built church every Sunday and give thanks to their mini-pope and imaginary god.
Look at what America has become, a money grubbing snot-nosed holier than thou, bunch of self-righteous christians, that have to run to a church every week to get the preachers approval and to replenish his funds, so he can tell you how wonderful you are and that his imaginary god loves you, what's up with that shit?
Look at what is going on over seas, basically the same thing here, one religion is better than the other religion, they think, when all religions should be abolished, then what will people have to fight over? Nothing!!!
As for the "good" that christianity is supposedly doing today (foreign aid, food kitchens etc) it's all conditional. You get a meal, but you have to sit through a sermon, or read a tract or some other form of propaganda.
Now, regarding your statements about the crazy person who believes themselves normal in killing people. There are such things as mental disease, and we have institutions for people like that (methinks "god" should undergoe some intense therapy)
Your argument is futile, because even you trust your own sense of judgement. You believe you can understand truth, or at least identify it when it is presented. You therefore trust your senses, your mind, and your (not quite) rational thinking. That's a lot of self trust you've got there.
Many people have done evil with and without religion, and many people have done good with and without religion, so any claim of a superior moral stance are moot. Humans are not intrinsically selfish and evil, nor are we inherantly good and kind
Anony, please read. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is horrific: Click here and here
Don't be an ignorant fundie. It's ugly.
"Anything that divides people breeds inhumanity. Religion serves that ugly purpose."
http://skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html
"A Catholic Timeline of Events Relating to Jews, Anti-Judaism, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust, From the 3rd Century to the Beginning of the Third Millennium, Prepared by Jerry Darring"
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm
"VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH"
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Religion Sucks!
Does anybody know?
It depends on which Christian you ask. All that post here and identify themselves as Christian consider themselves to be true Christians. Interestingly, many would not consider each other to be true Christians.
The term is used primarily to label those self-proclaimed Christians whose arrogance and ignorance exceeds the average.
No. Wait a minute. A true Christian is one who is able to hear the full gospel when another true Christian is making ecstatic utterance.
No. Wait a minute. In the book of Acts there was no ecstatic utterance. The apostles spoke in specific foreign languages they had never known (Acts names the languages).
Oh, Crap! I'm all confused.
That is a complete oxymoron! There can be no true christian when the religion is false!
Marilyn Manson And The cULT oF hERo wOrShIp
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/
Favorite book: The Bible
Bwa-ahahahahaaa!!
http://www.okcupid.com/profile?u=MusicGirl88
I know it's wrong to bash people I don't know, but man - why are there people like this??? Hahaa!!
wes(at)vip(dot)net
I'm gonna call myself 'Wez' now seeing how there's two of us...
Bwa-ahahahhaaaaa! Har har!!!!
That's what we need - Christians On Fire!! Hahahaaa! Burn! burn!!
wes(at)vip(dot)net
YOUR ALL GOING TO HELL~
Hi little girl!---for future reference, it's boo "HOO", if you want to engage in mockery..... and it's "YOU'RE" going to hell, not, "YOUR" going to hell. "You're" is the contraction for "you are"; "your" shows possession......as in, "get YOUR scrawny little ass back in school, you uneducated little twit!"
lol!
"Why, then, are there, black people, white people, etc?"
Never seen a lot to justify the other flavors of humanity, but then again, the orignal authors of the stories didn't KNOW of that many other races at the time. Xians do have a myth to explain why there are black people, and other dusky skin types walking the earth.
God had himself a little flood, and restarted the species from a slightly larger gene pool this time with Noah and his family. One day Noah got drunk and was lolling about nekked in his stupor. One of his sons, Ham, did not look away, and the others did. When this was discovered by Noah, either he or his god cursed Ham's sons (and his entire lineage) to have dark skin and be servants. The congenital evil of the "sons of Ham" has been used throughout history for the subjugation of this bunch or that bunch.
Huh. Millions of people cursed to a life of servitude from one guy getting a glimpse of his father's pecker. Great religion guys, lol. Just more proof that the christian god is white... :)
Even most xians don't know this shite, all the fun stuff was left out of their book.
You can balance this story against the xian vampire myth, yes, they have one. Vampires are the "unwashed children of Eve."
Apparently one day God was going to be stopping by Eden for an inspection tour and Eve was in a rush trying to get things neatened up and didn't have time to wash all the kids. So she told the ones that she'd not washed to hide from God's sight as not to shame her.
When God asked if these were all of the children, Eve responded that they were. Of course that old rascal wasn't fooled, and cursed the unwashed children to remain forever in darkness and to prey on the fringes of humanity. For some reason instead of fangs their little fingers became thorns to open necks in many versions of the story.
Xian apocrypha... Fun stuff!
BTW Dave, great work on the site! Religion is truly the opiate of the masses, we need more methadone like this site!
I hear christians saying stuff like this allll the time. So where are all the true christian. Couse everyone I talk to seems to think they are the only true ones. Yet to me, from what I learned. There not. So we have all these christians, who believe there real christians, but are not according to other christians, but the bottom line is they are all saying that I'm going to hell for not believing. Its against the law to have me killed for something like that. After all, I'm not a "savage" but worse! an atheist!
Ooo, Ooo, I have! I have!....does that mean a flying invisible sky-daddy will swoop down and be my Da Da? Yaaay. lol
I am not going to try and persuade either side that they are wrong. for me belief in God is through faith. I cannot prove Him I cannot disprove Him.
I see a lot of hurt people, a lot of sad people who are Christians and a lot who are not Christians.
I get frustrated that bad things happen I get happy when good things happen.
What to me is bad may not be to someone else, what is good to me maybe bad to someone else.
I suppose I was an agnostic who became a Christian, then turned away from the Church, then turned back, then away, then back, then away for many many years.
A few (very few) years ago I turned back.
All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.
Will I say that in a year, 10 years, 20 years? I don't know I am too fickle, too full of questions without answers.
Am I weak and foolish - yes. Do I believe I am forgiven - yes. Do I think I am better than than people around me? - no.
All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.
May GOD bless each and everyone of you.
If I do not get back to this string it is because I cannot find my way back to this topic.
Aco, questioning is the first step to recovering your objective "true" self. However, if you accept answers based soley on that which makes you comfortable---especially when it's contrary to reality---you develop a "false" self---and the belief becomes a coping mechanism....a "crutch", similar to the way a narcotic may be a crutch. Moreover, people are obviously asking different questions now, than what they were 2000 yrs ago. Subsequently, people will be asking different questions 2000 yrs from now, than what we ask at the present. Hopefully you can see the blantant problem when we see that religious conviction claims to have "unchanging" answers(God's word is "unchanging")...and this is before the question is even asked. The more time goes by; the more we learn what is real about the universe, the sooner religious convictions will crumble.
Am I weak and foolish - yes.
We all are to an extent, it's called being human. We all make mistakes, and we adjust our knowledge accordingly---however, when we defend our errors in judgement perpetually, this only hurts us as individuals, and as a society.
Do I believe I am forgiven(?) - yes.
Again, we are only human, and if we keep in line with the theological definition of the Christian Biblegod--the God that you currently subscribe to----we/you turned out 100 % precisely how "He" wanted us/you to turn out--being that "God" is defined as both "Omniscient" and "Omnipotent". Freewill is irrelevant if "God" knows our choices in advance. If such a being exists, "He" has no one to blame but "Himself"...in which case, you need not be "forgiven" for anything. Of course, this is presupposing such a biblegod exists.
All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.
At this second, someone on the other side of the planet is saying that very thing, but about Muhammad, and Allah...and they're believing it with every bit as much conviction. What would you say to them, keeping in mind that they'd say the same to you?
And when Jesus returns to judge the those who accepted the wrong religion, or rejected his loving advances, by drawing rivers of blood with His firey sword of vengence, that will be loving too.
I have no desire to hurt anyone else's faith, to each their own, but if they don't quit glibly pushing me I am going to start pushing back.
I have a friend who is really christian, been friends for a long long time, since before I was a christian and through my christianity and to this day. I admited to her I was an atheist and her response was, "I still love you but if you start worshipping the devil..." What an ignorant thing to say. I told her not to worry, I do not believe in the devil! After all we have been through together, and it is a lot, she easily laughs me off and mocks me.
Actually I have been agnostic for several years, still unsure, then I moved away from the religious people I was surrounded by and I started to breathe again and started thinking and then a small flame started burning in my heart. This same friend made me realize what a lie it (Christianity)is when she told me how she was praying for me ( I have a chronic illness and I was in so much pain and misery, at my lowest point ever i think) and the Lord spoke to her and said, "She needs to know I am Lord." I was so angry I would not speak to her for a few weeks, but ever since then I have viewed her differently. She actually thinks I am suffering as a punishment because I am not worshipping Christ and waving my flag for GW Bush. She is looking DOWN on me. I also realize it is the result of her warped religion so I continued the friend ship and it was put in the past, but now woth her devil worshipping comment I think it is over. What is the matter with these people? What jerks!
Now that I am past my fervent cult worshipping days as a born again, I feel like the biggest fool and I cringe when I look back at how damn idiotic I was...I was such a sucker and that is also why I get angry. Thanks for this great website, you are doing a good thing here!
Enjoying Life!
CF
Okay, so I have a question.
Have any of you that are extians ever had a positive experience with a known Christian? You know, like it was casually mentioned in a conversation or something but then you never really heard about it again? I'm just curious because yes, I am a Christian, but I agree with the person who posted "to each their own."
Now before you jump down my throat, I am aware of other Christians' choices in expressing or practicing their beliefs and strongly disagree with them (ESPECIALLY in politics); however, in no way, shape or form will I argue what I agree with you as the "true Christan" bullshit. I practice my beliefs by way of love. I do perform acts of kindness but in no way, shape or form do I require anything in return, no sermon, nothing. I simply live my life and if someone asks only then do I pursue it. Now, in response to that I am curious: if all Christians stopped trying to make your life a living hell (haha), would you be less angry, and, do you think that me practicing my religion this way makes me a hypocrite?
I'm just curious, because I am constantly frustrated not only at stereotypes in general, but especially those about Christians and ex-Christians, atheists, etc. I have friends who are non-believers and I know how they suffer from these horrid stereotypes sometimes, particulary the one who is Satanist.
I appreciate the article because it helps me to understand so that I don't judge, and I'm hoping by posting that someone will understand that even if I am the only one that doesn't, not all Christians fit that stereotype of brimstone-preaching maniacs. I hope that in your beliefs (rather non-beliefs, I guess) you can respect some of us other believers that do not judge you and not judge us yourselves.
Oh, and to try to help some of the previous arguments, my family is American Indian, and actually, in some tribes, a Great Spirit did exist. Now I'm not saying they were right, I am simply posting that fact because the one about how Indians only loved mother earth with no actual entity bothered me.
My short answer to your question is yes, I have had a positive experience with quite a few Christians. But they would be decent people without Christianity. I am certain I could find their counterparts in the Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Shinto, Mormon and many other religions around the world. They are just plain “good” people. They don’t need god pushing them, or to hear someone spout a bible verse to get them to react. They are innately nice. Would they give credit to god? Some would, but most would just accept what they naturally do as a part of their life. They don’t try to put a religious spin on it; it is just them being themselves. Surprisingly, the only Christians who make my life a living hell are those I don’t know at all, or members of my own family. The vast majority I know, that I work with, see on a casual or infrequent basis or run into at the store are the kind of people I’d be glad to call my neighbor. I am not angry about those who harp on their religious convictions. I now listen to them bemused that these intelligent people can argue the stupidity and fallacy of Islam, Confucism, even about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but they studiously avoid applying that same reasoning power to their Christian beliefs. It is now so amazing to watch and provides me with plenty of comedy and song writing material.
Respect can only be earned. So respect others and you will in turn be respected. Good Luck!
I wasn't trying to suggest that nice people are nice because they are Christian (I think that's what you said; if not, please disregard), merely that some act on there personalities with that reason, which is also what you suggested (as with those that are of other faiths).
I thank you for your great answer. Logic like that is why I respect others with different beliefs, because they have a good reason. We're all people in this world, and biased hatred due to "ideas" (yay for the movie Dogma), is excessive.
--Moonflower
This sounds a little like circular logic to me, so let me rephrase. I wasn't trying to suggest that all who are nice do so because of their religion, I was merely trying to dispel the stereotype that I have suffered under as a Christian despite my total lack of resemblance to it, just as I think Dave did for extians with his post. I think that beliefs, no matter what they consist of, are very personal and that no one should be judged for them, which is why I despise stereotypes so much.
The amount of animosity towards people with religion in these posts was what made me respond to them, but now that I see it is targeted at a smaller group using a broader category, I feel better.
--Moonflower
ps. critizising a comment from a 15 yearold is not the way to go.
OK. I won't criticize your comment.
God reminds me of a manipulative, Spiritual Bully who has a major jealousy and insecurity problem. He needs christians to constantly stroke his ego.
He also likes to use this little threat if you aren't willing to kiss his butt, "Serve me or burn in hell".
Yet why in the hell should I pay for what two idiots did in the Garden of Eden? That wasn't my fault! Why in the hell should the rest of the world pay for that? That's stupid! Now that's the reasoning of a moron.
I remember the days of enslaving myself to God, and forcing myself to get up every Sunday Morning to go to church. I served God faithfully for years, only to be let down by God over and over again.
God's so called promises have turned out to be nothing, but lies, and the Bible is a worthless piece of shit book.
I finally decided back in 2004 to say "Screw God, and Screw Church"!
So I took both of my bibles and threw them in the trash.
I don't care what any christians have to say to me. All christians can stick it up their asses as far as I'm concerened.
If their God is real, I say prove your existence besides some stupid worthless book.
So far he's not willing to do that. He continues to hide his face, which proves he does not exist, and if he really did care about people, he would make more of an effort to show his face.
The Christian God does not exist, and Christianity is nothing but one bad joke.
On a final note, I have noticed that most christians who like to come on here and rub their Biblical Proproganda in other people's faces seem to come on here under the name, "Anononymous". Just like their God, they are also unwilling to reveal who they are.
How Ironic.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/
So, what what the point of directing us to that site?
By the way, if you want to read what a real scientist has to say about many of these topics, please read Victor Stenger's essay on Intelligent Design.
my heart breaks for you all...
Well, I take issue with your assertion, as it is well-known that Snickers also satisfies. In fact, according to witness in the linked YouTube video, it's also a means to reach heaven. So, I think your theology has some serious competition from a candy bar.
If you ever come back this way, we can discuss it. Okay?
Thanks for your article about anger towards Christians who try to convert others, especially deconverts. I was badly hurt by a Christian group called Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, which is somewhat cult-like. At a university Catholic-center, a cult-like atmosphere reigned because of one particular individual who gained power. This individual took advantage of me in ways that were truly evil, and "friends" their rationalized it away with the excuse, "it's in the line with Jesus." This sort of hypocrisy made me leave and I have found such wondrous joy through humanism and the helping professions. The healing I experienced in psychotherapy far exceeded whatever passes for "healing" in places like charismatic churches.
She-wolf: BS and BS for short? How insightful! After reading their silliness I couldn't agree more.
As for the anonymous writer with the horrible writing skills, get a life. If you are happy with your spiritual life, fine; unlike you, I am not one to judge. Personally, I do not care if you do not like this site. If you do not like it, don't come back. You most likely will be wasting your time and creating enemies for yourself.
Not really. But having an open site does allow some vomit.
However, the forums require registration and that helps keep things neater. You might want to check out the forums.
This is problematic. Here is a prime example of the antagonist redefining terms and then using them against the Christian as though they are giving an accurate portrayal.
The above definition of "conversion" is perfect for those who wish to then bash it to pieces. However, we do not experience God on a purely emotional level for "conversion" to occur. Nor are we driven from then onward by emotion.
This will be met with much scoffing and ridicule also, but the Word of God is able to "convert" because it is precisely rational and powerful.
One Anti-Christian recently asked "Why do you even need to read the Bible all the time when you already know what it says?" We DON'T know all that it says. THAT is why we read it. This person assumes to "know all it says" enough to reject it. Fine. His ignorance is bliss.
Still, we do not have to accept Ex-C's godless definitions of anything concerning "faith" which they know absolutely nothing about. THEY know about only an emotional experience they once had and therefore think that there is nothing more to it. Then they attempt to pin their wretched view on us as though it is our own---or worse, the view of the Bible, which, of course, they claim to know fully and can stand in judgement over.
"Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience."
Please notice the words "usually" and "nearly always."
The initial entry into Christianity is usually some sort of "spiritual epiphany," which more times than not is nothing more than an emotional experience.
"Faith is believing what you nkow ain't so" -- Mark Twain.
Faith is only required when there is no evidence. Once evidence is presented, faith is no longer required. Think about it.
My father is to blame for a lot of this also. He worked his ass off in the church for years after he failed to make it in the business world. He claims that god didn't want him to succeed in the business world, because he would've been a corrupt and crooked business man like "J.R. Ewing" from the TV Program "Dallas". I say "BULLSHIT"!!!!
Plus he has neglected his family, and other family obligations in order to serve his stupid lame god.
He actually drove himself into a "Psych Ward" in a hopstial because of it.
He talks about how we should put god before our very own family, and has showed scripture to me about how Jesus talks about leaving your families to follow him.
I'll be damned if I am going to abandon or neglect my "Real Life" Family for some stupid, imaginary, mythical, invisible God.
Why in the hell should I be so concerned with a so called Almighty God? He doesn't have any needs. It is people who have needs, not God.
People better start taking care of each other, instead of worrying about pleasing some self-absorbed, self-centered God who has no needs.
My father has done tremendous damage to his family because of his christian cult, and he still doesn't have a clue about what all he has done wrong.
All he cares about is serving and pleasing his stupid fucking god.
Anyone who ignores their family for the sake of God should have their children taken away from them and thrown in jail.
If any christian wants to tangle with me, I will not be nice at all.
PISS OFF CHRISTIANS!!!!!
Also since God who was in the form of Jesus, supposedly expierenced life here on Earth to the fullest, does that also mean he got laid while he was here?
However he hung around with his 12 boyfriends, Whooops! I meant his 12 disciples all the time.....Hmmmmm.
Kind of makes me wonder when Jesus was riding that donkey if he was riding in a "Gay Pride Parade".
I have to send this to Stephen Colbert; what a great example of "Truthiness™"
Chucky Jesus
I said the same exact thing when I was that age. It's kinda funny to look back now and see how young and stupid I was. Except I had better grammar. 'cristian'? WTF?
It's not at all about accepting Christ, as Christ was the Sacrifice that God, the Father, sent, which paid the price for all people everywhere, not just those that do the altar calls.
More often than Christ tooted his own horn, Christ told of God's love for us, and how The Father would meet our needs.
The problem with Christianity started when they put Christ at a higher level of importance than God, the Father.
People who are rabidly christian (or any other faith for the most part) are simply not going to listen or respond rationally,thoughtfully, or intelligently to what non-believers have to say, so why waste your precious time and energy responding to them??
I wish you all well,and send blessings of peace, harmony, and health to everyone. If you might indulge me, here is a buddhist meditation (or "prayer", if that term does not offend you.)
May all beings be peaceful
May all beings be happy
May all beings be safe
May all beings awaken to the light
of their true nature
May all beings be free
Peace, Katie
Some thoughts: I don't know what you're going through, but it sounds emotionally devastating. I'm not some naive person just saying that. I wasn't raised in a perfect home like many American Christians. My parents were frauds and hypocrites who went to church, but I still came to beleive in Christ anyway. However, I'm what Evangelical circles call "being Berean". Berean means someone who hears out all the aruguments and researches the details for himself and comes to the conclusion that Christianity is right after doing the due diligence. So in other words, I've heard all the arguments about lack of evidence for Christ's existence, and the Bible being written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, and how churches committed mass-murders, and Christianity condones slavery, and all the rest. I did the research on these topics. I know the facts. I know the Christian answers that vindicate God, Christ, and every Christian- even if they don't exactly vindicate the church denominations. Loaded statment for this board, I know, and I won't go into it. If you want to have conversations about evidence for things or lack thereof, then request my email address.
Some more thoughts: a common theme on this site seems to be a shared background of many of the ex-christian posters- a shared background of fundamentalist, charismatic, or Jesus-freak-hippie style churches within Evangelical Christianity. Sound familiar? I'm not surprised that is the shared background. Frankly, those movements are known for being "crazy" and misrepresenting the Bible. And known for spiritual abuse, outright lying, fear-mongering, sociopathic thinking, intimidation, use of shunning, and all kinds of other nasty practices. There is very little, if any, true intellectual development in those churches, and also, many have very little love taught to their members. Their members are usually trained like pit bulls- to be vicious, unforgiving, merciless hunters of other people's weak spots and twisters of people's emotions. The pastors of those churches are expert emotional manipulators.
I admit all of the above about Evangelical Christianity. And even more about Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestanism- styles of the religion which have had more time to perpetrate more horrors. All I'm going to do is to appeal to you to leave room in your life and minds for Christ.
Study Christ. I can't convert you, only God can convert anyone. All I can do is to say your reactions and thoughts are valid. I have no speeches about how you're going to hell, because unlike the Christians you've known (but like many Christians you have not known- it appears) I do realize that only God can decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. No one else has the authority.
I'm not going to spout brainless Evangelical catch-phrases at you, or push a Dominionist agenda about a supposed "Christian Country" at you. So I hope you take it at face value that there are Evangelical Christians out there who are willing to be nice. Not Liberalized Christians, because you probably already think of those as being nice. But I'm here to advertise that there are Evangelicals out there who are nice. And they're not just the lazy ones who are too spineless to push their beleifs or anything. They are committed Evangelicals who simply realize the same things that I listed above. We can't convert anyone. Only God does. We can't determine Heaven or Hell, or any other type of punishment or blessing. Only God can.
So now, if you see fit, then you can commence thinking of me as an idiot or brainwashed or backwoods without a college degree or whatever it is you want to determine based on what is posted today. But I deny I'm any of those things. I'm just putting it out there that there are Evangelical Christians who realize pushy and judgemental attitudes are wrong, and there is Biblical teaching for being nice to others instead of being sociopathic like too many Christians in America allow themselves to be. Furthermore, I want to reinforce that there are more and more Evangelical Chrisitans coming to this realization nowadays. Maybe too little, too late for some of you to care about it. But maybe it will make a positive impression on at least someone reading this.
If you are attempting to "be nice", then I'd suggest you forego all the implications that we are unreasonable or unfriendly people. The suggestion that your behavior is irrelevant to us unless you agree with our position, or that we will simply conclude that you are a "brainwashed idiot" for no other reason than that you hold a different religious opinion are both rather demeaning. Don't you think so?
You are entitled to believe whatever you want, and for whatever reason you want. You are also entitled to express your point of view. If you wish to convince anybody else of your religion, however, you will need to produce credible evidence for it. As a rule, we regulars here have studied Christianity quite extensively, and many have followed it and lived it for considerable parts of their lives. Please don't make the simplistic assumption that any of us have rejected Christianity out of naïveté. We know what your religion is about. We can see past the absurdity of various cults, but there is still a substrate of absurdity beneath it. If you take the time to read some of what is written at this site you may begin to appreciate that we have reasoned our way out of Christianity. Telling us to "Study Christ" is rather naive on your part. What makes you think we haven't done so? Is it because we don't agree with you?
As for the buddhist reply, you have no clue whether the idea from which you make your conclusions has any basis in reality and in fact it doesn't. You ae just as deluded as your average fundie nutjob, buddha would be ashamed.
"Study Christ. I can't convert you, only God can convert anyone"
Ribu,
Assuming you're correct about the reality of Christ and God, and all of us ex-xtians are somehow wrong, by what mechanism would you suggest we get in touch with this christ/god of yours?
I tried the following so far with unacceptable results:
1. Sending a prayer email to JesusIsHiding@Heaven.god
Mail Rejected...Not a known user.
2. Converted my Bat-Phone into a God-Hotline Red phone.
Got no answer, nor busy signal
3. Borrowed one of those huge spotlights they use to attract shoppers at malls and aimed it at heaven, while flashing in Morse-Code; "SOS Where Are You Hiding God"
4. Read and studied the one and ONLY xtian holy book, which also brought zero results, but also proved to be both vastly outdated and contradictory, as well as showing god/jesus has a severe case of Multiple-Personality-Syndrome.
5. Sacrificed on a home built, god approved, 50 foot high Alter; 5 Lambs, 2 Goats, 3 Geese 1 Partridge in a Pear Tree, and just for grins I brought along One Rubber Duckie.
No results, well, other than I was the tallest object around and god's lightning bolt made a burnt offering of the Rubber Duckie. No sure why he enjoys the smell of burning rubber....YUCK.
So, I seem to be at a lost here on how to contact this god of yours.
Maybe you can teach us all how it's done properly?
ATF
Oh ye of little faith.
Riiiight. And to find the fucking Easter Bunny, my 3-year-old just has to try harder. Uh huh.
The parallels are striking:
(JC=Jesus, EB=Bunny)
JC: Book about his story
EB: Book about his story
JC: No one sees him
EB: No one sees him
JC: You believe, you get rewarded.
EB: You believe, you get rewarded.
JC: No evidence outside his own book for his existence
EB: Ditto.
Obviously, either 1)the Easter Bunny is as real as Jayzus, or 2)Jayzus is as real as the Easter Bunny. I pick #2.
Oh, yeah, and this, from another Anonymous poster:
"The problem with Christianity started when they put Christ at a higher level of importance than God, the Father."
Correction, my friend. The problem with Christianity started when the problem OF Christianity started.
Read it a few times; you'll get it.
Read the disclaimer and click the "other" radio button and post using a pseudonym, or all your posts will be deleted.
"if Christianity has never existed, we idiots would not be here writing these ridiculous and silly opinions. May I suggest you read history better?"
I never said Xtianity never existed, dumbass. You're the idiot who is coming here trying to preach belief in your mythical undead Jew 'savior', so yours are the ridiculous and silly opinions. The burden of proof is on you Xtian big-mouths to show me any evidence of an historical Jesus outside of your bible. How about any evidence that the aforementioned invisible Jesus now lives, talks, works or does any other god-damned thing that we usually expect alive, actual people to do?
Should I read history better? Fuck your revisionist history. I've read of a nominal Jewish splinter group taken over by syncretistic Roman and Greek politicians and followers of nature and fertility relgions. I've read how those people ran their own fucking church into the ground with greed and sexual, moral and financial corruption. Along came Luder (that's 'Luther' in case you're a little slow; he didn't spell it in English), whose imaginary arguments with and flatulence toward the 'devil' brought SO much needed depth and gravity to an otherwise stale and lifeless theology. Luder, Jean Cauvin ('John Calvin') and their cronies took the corrupt manuscripts that were in the grasp of the powerful Roman church and built their own powerful and dogmatic shit systems from those same fucking made-up folktales. Before long, there were THOUSANDS
of competing 'denominations', all yelling that the others were teaching heresy and were damned to hell. Now there's multiplied thousands of them, and the child-raping, money-stealing, narrow-mindedness, fear-mongering, homophobia, dogmatism, avariciousness and just plain fucked-up shit just keeps on happening. Some 'power' your 'ghost' has got there. When the fuck are you anonymous, spineless little shitheads going to realize that your bullshit Christian house of cards came crashing down for us all a LOOOONG fucking time ago? The time for you assholes to prove the power of your god to love, heal, forgive and unite is GONE. It would have done us all some good back when all the shit happened in our lives to destroy our faith. You should have run some damage control; fact is, you let us get to the real history of your fucking death cult and we cut and ran as fast as we could. Maybe if the 'power' of your 'god' was real back then, you wouldn't be trying to sell us that pipe-dream now. Too late. History and your own fuck-ups on your god's behalf have already sealed the deal. Damn right Jesus died... the motherfucker died when the Xtian world's testimony and conduct couldn't keep the imaginary story straight. Nice job, assholes.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
Scary stuff, those tracts.
The answers and posts from some of the Christians on that board mirror some of the issues brought up in your article.
I am an ex-Christian who now believes as an agnostic atheist and am doing fairly well in holding my own on the board. However, it sure would be nice if more people like you were on the board!
brandi w.
jesuslincoln@gmail.com
I posted before that I'm ready to be nice enough. But I also feel the following: Atheists, anti-Christians, and bitter ex-churchgoers (I REFUSE to refer to them as ex-Christians) are all groups of people who are a waste of time to try to convert.
Christians: Shake the dust off your feeet and stop throwing pearls of wisdom in front of swine. Make sense? Makes sense to me because of their attitudes. Just read some of the comedic, spiteful, under-informed and under-researched drivel that these ex-churchgoers are writing here.
What next, are they going to show their obvious ignorance of the subject matter by claiming that God loves to kill babies by quoting 1 Samuel 15 and the similar battle in Joshua? Are they going to claim that God endorses rape by using the story of the Levite and the concubine?? Or are these ex-churchgoers and atheists going to nauseatingly insist that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene?
Hahaha, their lack of knowledge of the Bible is laughable, as is their lack of knowledge of the Zohar, and of the apocryphal books that explain Old Testament history. The Zohar is a collection of recollections of Jewish and Hebrew traditon and history that explains so much of the Old Testament, taken from the teachings of Simeon bar Yohai, a contemporary of the Apostles. Atheists and these bitter, under-informed ex-churchgoers just don't know theire stuff. They are ignorant in the subject matter.
Why are Christians wasting time with people who are so obviously under-educated in our religion?
-Ribu
What a lovely message; thanks for that. If you can pose a question or make an actual point, without all the vitriol, I'd be happy to indulge you. Otherwise... take care.
Also from wikipedia:"Elijah Delmedigo, in his Bechinat ha-Dat endeavored to show that it could not be attributed to Shimon bar Yochai.[1] The objections were that:
If the Zohar was the work of Shimon bar Yochai, it would have been mentioned by the Talmud, as has been the case with other works of the Talmudic period;[1]
The Zohar contains names of rabbis who lived at a later period than that of Simeon;[1]
Were Shimon ben Yochai the father of the Kabbalah, knowing by divine revelation the hidden meaning of the precepts, his decisions on Jewish law would have been adopted by the Talmud; but this has not been done;[1]
Were the Kabbalah a revealed doctrine, there would have been no divergence of opinion among the Kabbalists concerning the mystic interpretation of the precepts."
(yawn)
Are christians supposed to be heavy into Kabbalah now?
It seems to me that you are just like your Bible--self-contradictory and full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred.
Folks, I think this one is a real live True Christian.
Beanheel
STRONGERNOW: Regarding the Zohar- it is not WRITTEN by Shimon bar Yochai, but TAKEN FROM the teachings of that rabbi. If you could read again the post, you would see that "taken from the teachings of" is what was posted.
Thank you for allowing me to correct you, ex-churchgoer.
See... I'm being nice to the under-informed ex-churchgoers, am I not? I said "thank you".
Another point: your information on the background of the Zohar is taken from WIKIPEDIA. Wikipedia.
Wikipedia... Really now... you can do better than that, can't you? It's not surprising that the only information you gathered on the Zohar there is just a bunch of rumors, like about the widow who claimed her hubby really wrote it. LOL. What next? Are you going to quote the tabloids about Jesus's bones being found?? HaHa!
And no, Christians are not into the Kaballah now. It's just that some texts are growing in recognition among the Christian community. Like the Apocryphal books, the Zohar, The Antiquities by Flavius Josephus, and the Babylonian Talmud. I don't have great knowledge of any of these yet, but I, like other Christians, am recongnizing the importance of them. These writings go into detail about much of the Old Testament. They have become important in the Christian community for their reference value, but will never be elevated to the level of Bible scripture. In other words, these other writings explain so much that we wouldn't have a handle on otherwise about the Old Testament.
It was a pleasure to enlighten you further. But thank you in advance for resorting to taking this enlightening information as "full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred", as Beanheel put oh-so innovatively, maturely and eloquently.
Where you all could possibly see the ignorance, bigotry, and hatred in enlightening information is somewhat of the mystery that makes this message board so gosh-darn FUN!
But I'm not going to forget that I feel sorry for you because you ex-churchgoers come from, for the most part, churches where you were spiritually-abused and manipulated and misled. I wrote in my original post that I'd be nice to you because I understand you come from that background of those types of fundamentalist, charismatic, or hippie churches where such abuse is common. So I'll be nice. Really. But please permit me to laugh every now and then if I read something here that's soooo under-informed.
-Ribu
A big warm greeting to you too, from one of the "under-informed" here! It's an honor to have someone of your uncommon knowledge and intelligence stop by. I'm sure we'll all learn from you.
Ribu: "It was a pleasure to enlighten you further. But thank you in advance for resorting to taking this enlightening information as 'full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred',..."
You're quite welcome, in... uh... retrospect.
Ribu: "Where you all could possibly see the ignorance, bigotry, and hatred in enlightening information is somewhat of the mystery that makes this message board so gosh-darn FUN!"
I'm relieved to hear that you are having fun. We are too.
Ribu: "So I'll be nice. Really. But please permit me to laugh every now and then if I read something here that's soooo under-informed."
Ha ha ha. You have such a wit about you. I can just imagine you chuckling over our blatantly sophomoric attempts at logic. It's quite an image. But please do continue to bestow your great wisdom here, however. We "under-informed" heathens and apostates are in dire need of enlightenment. Please forgive our comical naiveté; we're trying, we really are.
All the best to you.
Thanks for the playful ribbing! Hilarious!
"This is Ribu... the only Christian that bothers to write to you..."
Which implies that all other Christians who post here are not "True Christians™." Very funny.
"I'm being nice to the under-informed..." [...] "I don't have great knowledge of any of these yet..."
Irony! Great job! More fun.
"In other words, these other writings explain so much that we wouldn't have a handle on otherwise about the Old Testament.
"
Really? You don't have great knowledge of these writings, but you know all about these writings. WOW! And, all those millions of Christians without the benefit of these "writings" are without the means of comprehending the "Word of God?" Fascinating. I wonder what ever happened to the Holy Spirit's magical ability to make HIS children understand HIS word? Ah, well, it's apparently a very good thing that you came along when you did to staighten things out.
"You ex-churchgoers come from, for the most part, churches where you were spiritually-abused and manipulated and misled."
You came to the conclusion that "most" ex-Christians come from abusive churches? Hmm. I would say that some ex-Christians come from abusive churches, but most? I don't even know if I could categorically label most of the former Christians posting on this board. However, with your self-aggrandizing, superior, and condescending tone, I'm confident you have a pretty good handle on what it means to spiritually abuse others. Again, you excellently dished up some outstanding irony!
Please continue to post. It's deliciously entertaining to engage a 100% authentic spirt-filled soldier of Christ after playing with all the fakers around here.
Blessings!
Aren't "Professor" Jim Arvo and the Webmaster the same? Perhaps he is Beanheel, as well?
-Ribu
I post only as myself. As far as I know, the WM posts only as himself.
I'll let you in on a little secret about this site. If you have some actual point to make, and you make it politely and cogently, you will get direct and cogent replies. If you doubt what I'm saying, just give it a try. However, I hasten to add that if it's an exchange of insults and sarcasm that you're after, you can have that need met as well. Follow?
Webmaster responds: "Really? You don't have great knowledge of these writings, but you know all about these writings. WOW!"
Webmaster,
You've been out of the loop a while; you're forgetting that "anything is possible with God". Remember? In other words, the notion that the final authority on everything..i.e..the "Holy Bible", needs "companion books", this, because the "Word of God" is perfectly, and concisely written beyond our "human understanding", would make perfect sense to you, if you'd just surrender, and believe, damn it! Yes, only in Christi-insanity can you admittedly not know jack-sh*t about a certain matter, but yet, later come to fully understanding it with a combination of "companion books", an "open heart", and a healthy dose of Divine begging..i.e.."prayer".
I hope this trip down memory lane has been enjoyable for you.
= )
From Merriam-webster:
"Rumor:
1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
3archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event"
Does he understand that the bible is "rumor" as well?
"I don't have great knowledge of any of these yet..."
Wouldn't that mean he is under-informed?
"Opening somebody's eyes" isn't the primary purpose of this site. The tone here is bitter because of the bad experiences many of us have had with Christianity. This is our recovery zone, where we come to rant and commiserate.
"We have to be kinder, more accepting, and more generous than the Christians..."
Um... No, we don't. We don't "have to" be anything other than our sweet, bitchy selves.
What I find interesting is not in your current belief state, whether you accept the word God/god to mean something or not... but how you "perceive" this site.
It would seem that one persons' demand for honesty, can be perceived as; arrogant, pompous, big-headed, naive, unrealistic, noble, etc.
You see, honesty doesn't seem to have a "title" associated to it. However, it would appear, that when people are asked to explain themselves, for the remarks they make, they tend to "perceive" such inquiry depending on their confidence level...
If absolutely clueless and without confidence of their words, they will perceive a demand for honesty to be arrogant, etc., however, if the same person actually has some confidence and understands their position, well then, they may perceive such inquiry as "noble".
I suppose the bigger question is; when should we stop demanding honesty from others. Of course, we can all think of a million reasons to "lie" in public to prevent embarrassment, etc., but on a blog site? Where a person can literally be anonymous?
I can say, that I do in fact tend to be a little bitter, but not just about Christianity... it's much more basic than that.
I prefer blatant, raw, in your face "honesty", not only in a blog, but in life. Now, I'll suggest that Christianity and the prevailing lies I was taught, have caused me to be sensitive to "false statements", etc., but isn't that irrelevant in the bigger picture?
If we seek honesty, in all endeavors, everything else falls into place.
So, when should we "feign" honesty, so that we "save" the feelings of another person?
In other words, when should we suppress our values (self); it reinforces a false illusion, and teaches others that "lying" is okay, as long as it's with good "intentions".
We get people and organizations all over the place trying to present themselves as the "persecuted".
Once believed to be the "persecuted", anyone who would challenge them, is seen as an insensitive, arrogant, prod.
Now, of course, there's a difference between walking up to someone in public and saying, hey dude, you're ugly - and let's say, challenging a person who says they saw Jesus walking on water with a bunch of dead relatives.
Somehow, I fail to see my obligation to suppress honesty, when someone starts spewing lies relentlessly, because of this "self-proclaimed" or "role played" persecution.
So, Jstone... perhaps you find this site a tad bit bitter, because the regulars give "little" to "no" regard, for the "persecution" role.
Does that seem fair? Yes, it does to those who don't see; age, race, physical ability, emotional state, intelligence, gender, religion, etc., as a prerequisite to honesty.
No, to those who find it convenient to use their; age, race, physical ability, emotional state, intelligence, gender, religion, etc., to claim the status of "persecuted", so they can conveniently use it to evade those who demand honesty.
To those who have lived through Christianity, bad relationships at work or home, growing up, or still living through it, one may see some truth in the words of Billy Joel’s song… Honesty.
Honesty
If you search for tenderness
It isn't hard to find
You can have the love you need to live
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind
It always seems to be so hard to give
CHORUS
Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard
And mostly what I need from you
I can always find someone
To say they sympathize
If I wear my heart out on my sleeve
But I don't want some pretty face
To tell me pretty lies
All I want is someone to believe
CHORUS
I can find a lover
I can find a friend
I can have security
Until the bitter end
Anyone can comfort me
With promises again
I know, I know
When I'm deep inside of me
Don't be too concerned
I won't ask for nothin' while I'm gone
But when I want sincerity
Tell me where else can I turn
Because you're the one that I depend upon
CHORUS
To me, anyone worth depending on, is someone honest. To those who take offense to the honesty requirement; just don’t demand that others believe your words are dependable. Is honesty that difficult a concept to grasp?
Uh huh, and you're welcome to your opinion.
Jstone: You're going to have a hard time opening somebody's eyes when you start out with a rant calling all their beliefs garbage and nonsense, no matter how truthful this may be.
We're not here to "deconvert" the Christian visitors. Furthermore, they[Christians] can take it, or leave it. Conversely, it is at least implicit that one cannot "take or leave" Christianity. Remember? If you are a former Christian, as you say, I'd be suprised if you've, so soon, forgotten that very important distinction.
Jstone: These rants only reinforce what the church tells all the 'believers'; that atheists are bitter and full of hatred.
Listen closely---even if Atheists could blow sunshine out their asses 24/7, "the church" would find some other "strawman" to attack...i.e "Atheists believe in nothing"...[blah, blah, blah, etc., etc.]
Jstone: To truly win, we have to be better than the Christians, to prove that Athiest != Unhappy.
No, I'm sorry, we don't have to "prove" any such thing. You see, anger is a very cleansing and perfectly natural emotion. We have just as much right to be "unhappy" as anyone else who has wasted precious years of their lives being duped by a cult. One way of resolving some of this residual "unhappiness" is finding and conversing with others who have been through the same thing. Yet, when Christians barge in here daily, it is essentially the equivilent of a beer vendor barging in on an A.A. meeting. That would make certain people "unhappy", and rightfully so.
Jstone: We have to be kinder, more accepting, and more generous than the Christians, to show that it is not the 'holy spirit' that drives such acts, but human kindness and compassion. Doing so can only expose the hypocrisy of the church; if we act more moral than them, how can they claim to be 'morally superior?'
In my view, Christians don't need one bit of help in demonstrating that they aren't being guided by any "holy spirit"; they seem to do a very good job of that, themselves. Moreover, if we set out to show people that we are "superior", we are essentially striving for some non-existent 'standard', just like they are.
We are human; there IS no "superiority". The end.
...even if Atheists could blow sunshine out their asses 24/7, "the church" would find some other "strawman" to attack...
---
Boom',
O-M-G[awd)....this is a priceless piece of wisdom, if I ever 'met one' !!
Now that I'm done LMAO, perhaps you have solved the mystery of where the earth's sunlight comes from.
Gawd has been right there the whole time, giving the earth the 'fired' results of his baked-bean lunch.
This sure explains how sunshine gets 'blown' to us during the day, and of course, god Moon's the earth at night.
ATF (Who wonders if we would have two suns, if the Sun-of-god also eats beans for lunch)
Well, let one who is technically considered part of that minority, due to DNA, clear something up for you.
Who was it that helped the puritans when they got to Massachusetts? Who showed them where to find food and gave them some? Traded with them? I am not saying all Native Americans were paragons of virtue, but no ethnicity is. There's good and bad in us all. I have enough of a mutt ancestry that makes you wonder how I even got here.
Also, my lineage relates back to the Cherokees, the first and perhaps still the only Native American tribe to create its own written alphabet.
Thanks to you, I barely know anything about my ancestor's heritage. I have to scrounge around on the internet because YOUR "god" destroyed their culture, their lives. It's all memories now that I have to drudge up from this giant cyber encyclopedia.
I can tolerate quietly, while snickering to my friends, anything you fundamentalists can crank out, but this has got to be one of the most disgusting, violent, and hateful things I have ever read. I now fully appreciate why homosexuals hate you all so much. Even why my own gender hates you as much as it does.
To end this note, I'd like to mention that some of your faith must not have disliked the natives too much, because they sure didn't seem to have any issues fucking them.
Not ready to make nice!! What a great great post, thank you! The guilt, the loss, and wondering why I am still so angry about Christianity after all these years of gradually leaving... it's so hard when your family is still there, and they look at you with that sad, superior look. Ugh, it makes me want to scream!!! My christian brother and his (subjugated) wife went to Africa recently for "mission" work -- I felt so upset about it, because of the presumptousness of the endeavor, etc., etc. But the ideas in Dave's post made me realize that all the old christian jargon just opens old wounds. I came to this site after some futile but pugilistic exchanges with some LDS members online.
And when Jesus returns to judge the those who accepted the wrong religion, or rejected his loving advances, by drawing rivers of blood with His firey sword of vengence, that will be loving too.
So now we all need to do this with the concept of "the state" and we can all get better.
you guys. i think you just sound emo now... poor you and how christianity is gettin you down.. brain washin you and making you angry... get back into life and find something else to whine about than how you have been psychologically damaged by religion.... you havent - and you know it... but keep up the charade of how you are fighting the good fight for freedom of thought by attacking those that think differently...
yes - its wrong of people to push their beliefs on you... as ive said and say again... people suck... religious ones and irreligious ones alike - it doesnt matter if they believe in communism - or the joys of hunting.. or any other concept.. they will argue with you that their personal bias is correct..... but that doesnt make you the injured party - have some respect and take some responsibility - you aren't the suffering ones... those that believe are the ones ridiculed by the rest of the world - since the dawn of time those placing belief in something bigger than themselves that they couldnt prove were the ones to suffer the consequences by all those around them.... they were seen as unrealistic... or crazy or what have you.. - and at some points in history even put to death for such beliefs... but sure - you guys are the wounded party.. lol
you guys. i think you just sound emo now... poor you and how christianity is gettin you down.. brain washin you and making you angry... get back into life and find something else to whine about than how you have been psychologically damaged by religion.... you havent - and you know it... but keep up the charade of how you are fighting the good fight for freedom of thought by attacking those that think differently...
yes - its wrong of people to push their beliefs on you... as ive said and say again... people suck... religious ones and irreligious ones alike - it doesnt matter if they believe in communism - or the joys of hunting.. or any other concept.. they will argue with you that their personal bias is correct..... but that doesnt make you the injured party - have some respect and take some responsibility - you aren't the suffering ones... those that believe are the ones ridiculed by the rest of the world - since the dawn of time those placing belief in something bigger than themselves that they couldnt prove were the ones to suffer the consequences by all those around them.... they were seen as unrealistic... or crazy or what have you.. - and at some points in history even put to death for such beliefs... but sure - you guys are the wounded party.. lol
I said the same exact thing when I was that age. It's kinda funny to look back now and see how young and stupid I was. Except I had better grammar. 'cristian'? WTF?
The last part about reopening
wounds and expect a bite in return
is correct.
I thought I was not mature enough with my reactions after all those years, but I realise it's much
deeper than that.
No more needs to be said!
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