I Challenge Christians to Put Up or Shut Up...Literally!
By John W. Loftus
It's always man's fault, isn't it? It's never God's fault according to Christians, no matter what the problem is. They are letting God off the hook too easily here...way to easily. What would it take for Christians to say, "hey, this is probably God's fault in some way"? The fact is, God did not reveal himself clearly which has led to so much confusion among Christians even to the point of burning other Christian people alive (at least some, and probably many of the people burned at the stake during the Inquisition would be admitted into today's fundamentalist churches). There have been wars between Christians too. Christians killing other Christians due to a disagreement over little things by today's standards by far, leaving many widows without a husband and many children without a father.
What would it take Christian, for you to consider what I consider obvious? Name it, or drop this defense of your God.
Furthermore, why God did not say this: "Thou shalt not buy, own, sell, or trade slaves," and say it so often that Christians would've gotten the point and be appalled if any other professing Christian decided to own a slave in the American South, much less make it allowable under law. Some of these slaves became Christians and their Christian masters still beat them and whipped them and raped their wives and daughters.
God is at least partially to fault! I have argued this many times before. Christians are simply not being reasonable about this because of blind faith...that's right...blind faith.
But here's the rub. If God is even partially to fault, then this destroys the orthodox Christian faith in a perfectly good God who is believed to be completely pure and faultless. So Christians continue spouting off proof texts mindlessly in support of their blind faith.
Sorry to be so harsh, but Christians are clearly and plainly denying what is obvious...obvious. Which can only mean they are blinded by their faith just as much as sincere Muslims who become suicide bombers in hopes for 70 virgins when they die (THEY REALLY BELIEVE THIS, AND YOU COULD NOT CONVINCE THEM OTHERWISE!). The one differene in today's world (for the time being) is that the Christian blindness (for the most part) doesn't cause this much mayhem. But both are blind.
What provoked this outrage from me is when a Christian described, as I've heard so many times before, "a wide range of so-called Christian church fellowships..."
What do Christians mean by describing other evangelical Christian fellowships as "so-called" ones (I presume that's the only fellowship he would be a part of, and if I'm wrong, this takes nothing away from my upcoming challenge)? My challenge is this: Tell me what they believed or how they acted and I will show you how easliy God could have straightened them out. Barring God doing that, I can probably show you how you either believe or act the same way, or that what you believe or how you behave is at least as different as them.
I think I can show you how easily God could've done differently by clearly communicating to them. Easily. Try me. It's PARTIALLY God's fault Christians don't know what the truth is or how they should act.
Give us here a try. Put up or shut up. I claim it's partially God's fault, and if that's the case your orthodox faith crumbles to the ground.
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It's always man's fault, isn't it? It's never God's fault according to Christians, no matter what the problem is. They are letting God off the hook too easily here...way to easily. What would it take for Christians to say, "hey, this is probably God's fault in some way"? The fact is, God did not reveal himself clearly which has led to so much confusion among Christians even to the point of burning other Christian people alive (at least some, and probably many of the people burned at the stake during the Inquisition would be admitted into today's fundamentalist churches). There have been wars between Christians too. Christians killing other Christians due to a disagreement over little things by today's standards by far, leaving many widows without a husband and many children without a father.
What would it take Christian, for you to consider what I consider obvious? Name it, or drop this defense of your God.
Furthermore, why God did not say this: "Thou shalt not buy, own, sell, or trade slaves," and say it so often that Christians would've gotten the point and be appalled if any other professing Christian decided to own a slave in the American South, much less make it allowable under law. Some of these slaves became Christians and their Christian masters still beat them and whipped them and raped their wives and daughters.
God is at least partially to fault! I have argued this many times before. Christians are simply not being reasonable about this because of blind faith...that's right...blind faith.
But here's the rub. If God is even partially to fault, then this destroys the orthodox Christian faith in a perfectly good God who is believed to be completely pure and faultless. So Christians continue spouting off proof texts mindlessly in support of their blind faith.
Sorry to be so harsh, but Christians are clearly and plainly denying what is obvious...obvious. Which can only mean they are blinded by their faith just as much as sincere Muslims who become suicide bombers in hopes for 70 virgins when they die (THEY REALLY BELIEVE THIS, AND YOU COULD NOT CONVINCE THEM OTHERWISE!). The one differene in today's world (for the time being) is that the Christian blindness (for the most part) doesn't cause this much mayhem. But both are blind.
What provoked this outrage from me is when a Christian described, as I've heard so many times before, "a wide range of so-called Christian church fellowships..."
What do Christians mean by describing other evangelical Christian fellowships as "so-called" ones (I presume that's the only fellowship he would be a part of, and if I'm wrong, this takes nothing away from my upcoming challenge)? My challenge is this: Tell me what they believed or how they acted and I will show you how easliy God could have straightened them out. Barring God doing that, I can probably show you how you either believe or act the same way, or that what you believe or how you behave is at least as different as them.
I think I can show you how easily God could've done differently by clearly communicating to them. Easily. Try me. It's PARTIALLY God's fault Christians don't know what the truth is or how they should act.
Give us here a try. Put up or shut up. I claim it's partially God's fault, and if that's the case your orthodox faith crumbles to the ground.
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Comments
Christianity is a reveled religion. How was it revealed? Visions and dreams. Two thirds of the Bible is descriptions of dreams and visions. All of Paul’s ideas and comments are based on dreams and visions (by his own admission), although his writings are the basis for the “plan of salvation”. Take away Romans and everyone would be clueless. Today if I said that God spoke to me in a dream, you would think that I am delusional. Why do we give clout to a person that said it several thousand years ago? Also, the gospels were all written generations past the actual events. But that’s another line of thought.
What we have to understand is that Bible was written by authors that were inspired, meaning that they had dreams and visions, not word for word robotic secretarial work. Dreams and visions are metaphoric in nature. Sects that are obsessed with word for word, literal translations are missing the whole point. If word for word, God given scriptures were important to God, he would have had Jesus write a few notes while on earth to publish. Since Jesus was literate but didn’t feel that it was necessary to but his own thought on scrolls, then our assumption that God thinks the Bible is completely relevant is in error.
Why does every different Christian group think they are right? They pick verses that they like and make them literal. Next time you have a dream try writing it’s spiritual meaning. Then you can see how the Bible should be read.
Christianity has always been a fight amongst sects for supremacy over the whole. The Catholic church ruthlessly destroyed myriads of subsects, and edited the bible to fit their use.
Christianity is tyranny at it's greatest, and naturally there can only be one, hence the inborn and inseparable bloodthirsty battles between sects, and the absolute orthodoxy within one sect.
What is your basis for believing in a faith/religion that is based on dreams and visions? Have you had no dreams of your own? Don't you realize how utterly absurd dreams can be? And visions??? What makes a vision by self-proclaimed spiritual men 2000 years ago more valid than the drug induced hallucination of the local crack addict?
Many of the founding writers of Christianity (both who they CLAIM to be and who they probably actually WERE) most likely lived in the desert. Needless to say, it gets hot in the desert. What about heat-induced mirages? How do we know that folks like Paul/Saul didn't get too hot while traveling and see things that weren't there? (For some odd trivia here, by the way, overheating can affect your eyesight...think about it). Suppose Paul/Saul just got too hot and hallucinated? Perhaps he had a guilty conscience from all his persecuting? What about subconscious suggestion???
This is all speculating on my part, yes, but your whole system of belief seems to me to be founded on speculation. Do you see what I've done? Just like you, I can MAKE UP any story to make any relevant facts fit any belief that I choose to hold, whether reasonable or not.
I guarantee you that I could come up with my own dogma or even my own religion based on MY dreams and daydreams. I bet you I could even write a book full of my own values for how to live a worthy life. I bet you I'd even include some sections that say it's divinely inspired and THE ONLY word of truth. If I write this book and take it out and bury it, who's to say that in 2000 MORE years, someone wouldn't dig it up and create the gospel according to "ME"? Now, why wouldn't everyone worship me?
Because we KNOW better. 2000 years ago, many people DIDN'T know better. Myths, dreams, visions, legends were basically all they had. They weren't fortunate enough to have the understanding of the natural world that we do, and frankly, it greatly upsets me to see the disrespectful way that many Christians treat science. They take it for granted, by turns embracing it or rejecting it as it suits their own twisted needs. I wish that just for a day, many of these devout Christians could be forced to live without the wonders of modern science...forced to live and survive on nothing more than their outlandish faith. Who would you turn to for help? Your god? Or your fellow man? Wake up and see what's right in front of you.
This turned into a rant, and I apologize for that. It just frustrates me how far some people will stretch the limits of imagination and stubborness to defend something that, frankly, doesn't even deserve their acknowledgement let alone support.
-Monk (MG)
I'm setting here wondering just how religion made it's way to America, I mean the Native American Indians lived here on this soil (over 30 million native peoples) for over 13,000 years without any knowledge of the Abrahamic Bible God and the Blessed virgin born earth-man god savior Jesus.
What plan of salvation was offered them without the knowledge of a virgin born savior?
None! Why? Because the Bible is solely the works of men (Arabs) and their dreams and ideas and visions smoking dope and heroine and Camel Dung and who knows what else, frontal lobe trauma perhaps.
Mary, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Matthew are not even Arab names, can any christian tell me an Arab who's name is (Mary, Luke, John, Paul, Peter?) No! Why, because these are not Arab names, they originate out of England, those are English names, made up to suit the believers ears.
The name Jesus is of Spanish origin, nowhere near of Arab, descent.
The white settlers brought over with them their Christianity beliefs because of religious persecution, so they killed all the Indians, and the Christians felt persecuted??? Never mind the poor savage infidel indians and their familys.
They killed the Infidel Indians,
ATTENTION!!! [THEY WERE NOT INFIDEL INDIAN SAVAGES] **** [THEY WERE HUMAN BEINGS!! ] [***HUMAN BEINGS!***] THAT WERE INVADED AND KILLED BY WHITE SUPREMIST RACISTS OPORTUNISTS
America was not discovered, it was invaded by the White Supreme Racist Religious Bigots, we still have them here, they reside all over America.
How many churches are run by Indians in America?
How many counties and states are named in honor of an Indian?
Have you ever bought land from an American Indian?
Who brought the white man's religion to America?
Who brought with them the English form of democracy and rules and taxes??? The savage Indians???
Yet, I notice that "God", himself, took the time to "publish" the "Commandments" on sheets of stone. So, should we not take these laws literally, then? In fact, I don't think they are the laws of any "God", in the first place. After all, to "work on the Sabbath" is higher on the list of "offenses" than actually killing someone.
Now, what kind of priorities is that? lol!
And then the clumsey oof Moses broke them and he had to send God back up the same mountain to write the commandments again where no one could see God (him)writing the commandments, we wouldn't want anyone to think that Moses perhaps wrote (chiseled) the commandments, now would we?
"And then the clumsey oof Moses broke them and he had to send God back up the same mountain to write the commandments again where no one could see God (him)writing the commandments, we wouldn't want anyone to think that Moses perhaps wrote (chiseled) the commandments, now would we?"
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Oh but steve, didn't you know, going back up the mountain the second time gave god the NEEDED time to reconsider the commandments he wrote the first time, and come up with a brand new ideas for them. At least that is my understanding of what happened.
In any case, the following is the problem.....
As I've read in a few places (and will site one below), even the ten commandments that were written in STONE, aren't the same for everyone, depending on who's version you wish to go by.
Heck, they couldn't even get this easy stuff right, let alone the whole entire bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
AtheistToothFairy
God Created everything and it was good.
He changed his mind and destroyed almost everything with a Flood.
Then he chose his favorite race and lead them from bondage.
They started to worship a golden calf.
He wanted to kill them all, but he changed his mind.
He wanted to be their king, but he changed his mind and picked Saul instead.
He changed his mind again, Saul was no good as a king.
He picked another, David, a man after his own heart, a murderer, an adulterer, a bigamist but he was really good with poetry.
He changed his mind and would not let David build his temple, he left Solomon do it instead, he was more worth and but really a bigamist, 300 wives and 700 girlfriends.
This whole time he was under a covenant that he designed with his chosen people,
which include killing animals to make him happy.
He changed his mind again, time for a new covenant.
Killing animals became inadequate, time to kill a person.
He couldn’t find one to suit so he decided to kill himself, Jesus is God.
This finally made him happy.
Until - he changes his mind again.
The Christian religion’s (or any revealed religion‘s) foundation is built on the important fact that God never changes. There are a few verses that indicate that he doesn’t change, but overall the Bible obviously tells another story. Look at the universe that God created, it all has one thing in common - everything, everywhere is constantly changing and evolving. Any reasoning person would conclude that God is constantly changing. Christians should not be surprised if God changes his mind about the “plan of salvation”. Even if all his changes were brought about by “the freewill of man”, it does not change the fact that God will still change his mind.
Or ---- The Bible and religion may be man made, a way to find or describe God for what ever reason - control, money or an answer for why we are here. Because cultures are constantly evolving even the Ten Commandments are obsolete by today’s morals. The Bible is about barbaric killings to appease an angry God. This theme would fit perfectly with the Mayans or any other ancient tribe. What does this mean to Christians - move on, adapt, evolve. Why are we stuck in a 2,000 year old rut. Take away Paul’s and John’s atonement dreams and you will see that Jesus wanted religion to evolve from what the teachers were saying at his time.
Why didn’t God get it right, he couldn’t obviously he isn‘t perfect, but he is smart enough to constantly change. Maybe this is the image of God that we were created with, the ability to reason and adapt.
PS I really enjoy the Gospel of Thomas it feels like something Jesus may have promoted. You couldn’t start a church with it. It speaks against offerings, prayer, teachers and preachers. It even says that any human is equal with any prophet from the past. It says heaven can be now, not in future. Does not mention hell. It even touches on pre-existence of the soul and reincarnation. You can see why the Church would throw it out.
While I don’t like plugging other websites, I think that Evil Bible.com (http://www.evilbible.com/) does an admirable job of demonstrating how vile, immoral and inconsistent the Biblical texts are in many places (not all, of course) and how utterly reprobate the Biblical God appears to be. That is, “God” appears to be the creation of the (evil?) men who wrote and compiled the Bible to affect control over the masses.
On the main page of evilbible.com, to the left and under the heading, “Essays from The Church of Theists Suck”, you will find these well-written, point papers:
Evils of the Torah, End Times, Do Not Ignore O.T., Biblical Intolerance, A Day Is A Day
Absurd Torah Science, Christians Are Hypocrites, Common Lies Christians Tell
Jesus is a False Messiah, Hitler was a Christian, Contradictions of the Gospel
Sexism in the Torah, God's Not Pro-Life, Ten Commandments, Why I am Not a Christian
What Would Jesus Do? and Is the Bible Fit for Worship.
I highly recommend that any serious “Truth-Seeker” read through these essays and research these points and conclusions for themselves, before succumbing to any irrational belief system or religion.
"God" keeps changing his mind because people (who invented god) keep changing.
For that matter, why does there even have to BE a god?
I for one appreciate your thoughts and ideas. I happen to agree with most others here, and have completely tossed out the christian faith for having no veracity. However, you are obviously not a fundy, and I don't mind having you post here and bang some ideas around, especially since you are not getting all preachy and throwing bible verses at us.
Someone willing to read the bible in the way you do is not my adversary.
You said "I have concluded that people look too close at the Bible (and all scriptures). Atheist and Christians both read it literally for their arguments."
I happen to agree, and would like to explain that I used to read it as you do before I pitched the whole thing. Now I read it literally only because that is the way I must read it in order to use it as a weapon against those who throw it at me. I let the bible literalists define the terms of the argument and then I meet them on their own literal turf.
However, in my more civil discussions with people that are liberal in their interpretations of the bible, I am comfortable in switching to this method when the situation is right. But even in this loose reading of the bible I still reject the message that we need salvation from some whacked out deity.
Thanks for your ideas, and since you are an ex-fundy, I welcome you here. By the way, why do you still refer to yourself as a christian? Others with similiar views have dropped the christian label as being too loaded, and now call themselves followers of Jesus, or something like that.
Thanks also to John and your original post. I hope we get some real fundy takers for your challenge. It will be interesting to see.
I appreciate your point of view...and I agree with your thesis.
I'm NOT a god believing person.
However, you asked questions about native American people. I appreciate your curiosity regarding them as regarding to the treatment of native peoples by European conquerors and settlers. In fact, I think you might enjoy reading *1491: New Revelations Of The Americas Before Columbus* written by Charles C. Mann. I found the book to be utterly breathtaking.
That said, you asked some questions about Amerindians, including:
How many churches are run by Indians in America?
Well, in my hometown in Northeast Nebraska, there is one christian church, First Church of God, run by native people. In some area counties that have a high proportion of indians in residence, there are others. In addition to that, I have a close acquaintance who is a member of the Ponca tribe who follows her native traditional spiritual practice on a daily basis.
How many counties and states are named in honor of an indian?
Not any one particular indian comes to mind, however indian nations do.
There are states that are named after derivatives of native peoples. My home state of Nebraska's name is a derivative of native language. Just in my area we have the two Dakotas (North and South), Minnesota is related to Indian culture as are Iowa, Illinois, Ohio and Alaska just off the top of my head. (Hawaii is native polynesian in derivation.) In my state, I can list a few county names (not an exhaustive list to be sure), Sioux, Dakota, Ogallala, Cheyenne, Keya Paha, Otoe, and Pawnee. Some large cities in the area are named after native peoples. Omaha, Sioux City, etc.
Have I ever bought land from an American Indian? I haven't personally, but a cousin of mine bought some farmland from the Winnebago tribe. In fact, one of the reality firms in eastern Nebraska is owned and operated by a Pawnee Indian family.
I think you get the point.
While we agree that the "white man's religion", Christianity, is a blot on humanity, the "red man's religion" in many cases wasn't so hot either. The Seminole tradition comes immediately to mind among others. The Maya and Inca traditions weren't exactly bastions of compassion and mercy either.
In the Indians' favor, the federations of tribes in much of present day New England had amazing democratic forms of governance that the eventual framers of the US Constitution borrowed from.
Peace.
Swabby 429
Thanks for the reasoning comments. All the hostility seems pointless in presenting ideas and views that are trying to open the minds of people that are set in their ways, regardless of their point of view. The more I read, the more I see that Atheists and Christians are very similar. Both camps are deeply convicted that their view on humanity is correct. Almost to the point of anger.
Everything has to originated from somewhere. We say that many things are manmade, why can’t anything be God made? My wife is into antiques, everyone is dead that created whatever it is that she thinks she needs. But that does not change that fact that someone made it.(or that she is going to buy it)
I have an aquarium, it is a natural balanced one, it has herbivore fish, and aquatic plants. It uses sunlight for heat and light. I created it, balanced it and then left it alone, (other then change water, and if I lived in a warmer climate I could even let it out in the rain). My point is - I am their God, do I want them to communicate with me, no - I could care less. Will their ecosystem collapse? Probably. Will I judge their actions and torment or reward their souls for eternity. No, why would I, they are the ones that came up with that idea anyway. (it makes them feel important) You will notice that with the old testament theme is that God had a chosen people, it is written to make the Jewish people feel important. They were enhancing their own egos and endorsing their actions. John’s post blames God (if there is a God) for inadequate communication skills, just dreams. If I were God the reason would have been because I didn’t want to be clear. Maybe humans are insignificant in the big picture.
Like fish in a tank, we sit and reason the meaning of life and how we came into existence. We feel important if we have an answer, or think we have an answer and can justify our actions. We feel important because we may have created God in our own image. Everything cycles, where were you or what did you believe before you were born? You will recycle to there when you die. It doesn’t matter what you believe. You may simply be a collection of chemicals and minerals, if so, that is where you will return. Or if you were a soul entering a body at birth, you will be a soul leaving at death. What is the big deal? Religion or beliefs simply are attempts to be in control, to be God. Maybe Jesus comment was right on when he was accused of blaspheming and saying that he was God. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
When a word can be used to mean anything, it can be abused by anyone. Lets suggest a person uses the word God to inspire them; thus, they then validate the word. Then, a few hundred people come together, and they as well validate the word.
These people, whether willingly or not, have created an instrument of power. An instrument, because now that the word is vouched for; it can be used to recruit others. The leader wielding such an instrument, giving it a whole new meaning, may use it to guide others to kill millions in order to create a Super race, using a single word - God.
Here's a thought...
Quote: "If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything"
Let's restate. "If a word can mean anything, and it is what a person stands on, then such a person stands on nothing".
In short, the word is something akin to "liquid courage", liquor. It gives people confidence to be who they really are, without inhibition.
People, in need can be exploited. People who need confidence, may just empower a "word" that can be used as an abusive instrument.
A common ground between people of varying belief/philosophy may be to meet the needs of people. The difference may well be, "how" that is best accomplished. Using a word, may not be the best solution if it opens the door for greater abuse and exploitation.
I don't see anyone being hostile. On the other hand, when people unceasingly charge that healthy skepticism resolves to "close mindedness", sure, you might encounter people who will become less than cordial in their responses with the ones making such claims, especially when these people are equally as skeptical when it comes to all "gods" but their own. Yoshin, do you believe that Allah and his Divine son, Muhammad, were the literal creators of the Universe? If you answer "no", what would you say to the person who calls you close-minded, and/or, set in your ways?
Yoshin: The more I read, the more I see that Atheists and Christians are very similar. Both camps are deeply convicted that their view on humanity is correct.
Firstly, please consider that Atheism would be totally unnecessary if it were not for Theists insisting that their particular gods exist. Similar to how we wouldn't need roach killer if it were not for roaches. Secondly, Atheism, itself, is NOT a "conviction". For most, it is merely a position of neutrality. Until unbiased evidence has been put forth for a "God", or anything else "supernatural", the Atheist simply lacks belief in any such thing(s). That is not a description of a "conviction". A conviction is when one holds to a belief being "truth", in lack of evidence to support it, and/or, in light of evidence to the contrary that it is "truth".
Yoshin: Everything has to originated from somewhere. We say that many things are manmade, why can’t anything be God made?
Either "God" is an element in a set of "everything"(i.e..every "thing"), or "God" is NOT a "thing"(i.e..not-a-thing..or, nothing)
If you conclude that "God" is a "thing", then that would require that he/she/it was "made" by another "thing", according to your statements. In that case, I ask: Who/what made "God"? On the other hand, if "God" is not-a-thing, or "nothing"; or if "God" is just a concept---agreed; end of discussion.
Yoshin: [insert "fishtank" analogy]
Bad analogy, Yoshin. The fish can see you; if you move your hand in front of the glass, they'll likely dart away. If their ecosystem becomes a problem, you can simply correct it. Do you see anyone besides us(the "fish") attempting to correct our ecosystem? I don't. Again, inapt analogy.
Yoshin: You may simply be a collection of chemicals and minerals, if so, that is where you will return. Or if you were a soul entering a body at birth, you will be a soul leaving at death.
Yoshin, there is currently not one single shred of objective evidence that a "mind" can exist independently of a physical brain. On the other hand, your other option--that we're just a "collection of chemicals"--is very inapt and misleading, as those "chemicals" have evolved to the point to where we can reason, reflect, have self-awareness, and be sentient human beings.
Wow!! Some of those that have posted here should take the time to read the "whole" Bible! Some of those that have posted should take a deep breath and not be so "angry" at the world and those that live in it. As the Bible (inspired word of God) states, we are all sinners because God created us with free will. We have the will to believe or to not believe, our choice. I am sorry that J grew up in a church that was not loving and kind and understanding like Jesus asks all christians to be. But as I stated earlier, we are all sinners. If we would read the entire Bible with an open mind, a mind that is not weighed down by prejudice and inherited baggage, we would see and understand the entire story. Then we would, all of us, would come to the understanding of why Jesus said and did the things he did. Especially why he died for us, even though we were sinners! We would understand why he said to have Faith, Hope and Love ....... and why he said that the greatest of these is Love. Because when we see God our Faith will be real, our Hope will no longer be needed and only Love will remain, because God is Love! Oh for us all to be those that strive to live like Jesus and Love one another fully, deeply and without prejudices. I love each of you that have posted to this sight. With deepest Sincerity! A christian, trying every day!
Yep, and your struggle to fight the good fight is futile, and you remain enslaved, and clueless just like most other christian cultists do.
Do you even read what is posted on here?
Like most christians, you still don't get it do you? You can't see the forest for the trees.
Everything you said is the same old worn out argument that all christians use. Give it up dude! It has no merit, and as far as the love of your god is concerened, he is not loving.
This so called powerful god who had to sacrifice his own son (who was actually God himself) just to redeem mankind back to himself? You mean to tell me he was that limited in power? He couldn't find a more effective way to bring man back to himself?
First of all I will remind all of you "Close minded christians" that it is "YOUR GOD" who screwed us. He purposely put "HIS CREATION (SATAN)" in the garden of Eden, just so we could fall on our faces.
I am not guilty of Adam and Eve's sin because I did not live back during that time period, so therefore I along with other's who are living today are not guilty of Adam and Eve's sins. I am not guilty.
The christian god is nothing more than a Manipulative, Insecured, Egotistical, Self-Centered Son of a Bitch!!!!
I am a former Bible Student just so you know, and I know plenty enough about what the "Bullshit Bible" says.
I can strike down any argument that you or any other christian has. Your bible is a worthless book of lies, and I wipe my ass with the pages of it.
"JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS"!
So? I didn't ask for him to. I owe him nothing.
Naw. Maybe they must just think it'd be fruitless to try. ;-)
Such blind faith...it amazes me.
If your faith is reasonable, then "put up or shut up."
Good luck.
He has clearly said that even if he were to admit that Christianity were true, he would not follow it.
He hates so much you can feel it in his posts.
But actually, we can thank God that people like him and Dan Barker...and others...came out in the open.
I know for a fact there are other ministers like him who don't believe but STAY in the chucrh...for money, power, sexual opportunites, and a lot more.
The are the ones doing the real damage.
So, a hat tip to Lofutus.
As to Yoshin, for example, there is another dissembler.
The New Testament is certainly not all dreams and visions, and even without the letter to Romans there is nothing difficult about the plan of salvation.
Its one one thing to simply not believe it, it is another to misrepresent it, and demonstrates that other motives simply than doubt are at work.
Thanks for the post, Christian. You make your religion proud, I'm sure.
Can't we, "webmaster".
But, uh, what did "anonymous" (even assuming that it a genuine post) say about Loftus that was NOT TRUE?
Keep up the good work. Jesus is proud.
Can't we, [ ](?)
But, uh, what did "anonymous" (even assuming that it a genuine post) say about Loftus that was NOT TRUE?
Dear Jean,
Let's, for the sake of argument, say that your charges against this one individual are true.
Okay, I've got what I think might be a grand solution for you. Here it is:
DON'T BUY HIS BOOK.
Don't read it; don't touch it; don't walk within 50 feet of it. Moreover, I haven't read the book in question, nor met the man in question, but I know we live in free country, so he can write what he wants, and you can NOT read what you DON'T want to read. See?...it works out for everyone.
Notwithstanding, "true" or not, I'll bet the author in question doesn't have a "condition" clause anywhere in his book---a clause that tells you what will happen to you if you DON'T buy, read, and adopt the information therein as the "GOSPEL" truth.(pun intended)
The Bible is based on Dreams,
God spoke in Dreams to the following:
Abraham
Jacob
Laban
Balaam
Joseph
Pharaoh, his baker and taster
Gideon
Samuel
Solomon
Job
Jonah
Ethan the Ezrahite, vision of David
Nathan for David
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Obadiah
Micah
Nahum
Zachariah
Joseph
Mary
Elizabeth
John
Ananias
Cornelius
Peter
Paul who wrote the majority of the new testament
And I probably missed a few, look it up for yourself.
Probably Moses received dreams also, he has a lot of commands against prophets that receive visions. (exclusive rights to God)
By the way the first 5 Books of the Bible were written from oral accounts handed down for generations, probably put into writing around the time Samuel.
You will notice that over half of the old testament and well over half of the new testament was written from dreams and visions. Each person stated that he received his info from visions or dreams. Since you think the Bible is inherent, you have to accept that fact that they received their info from dreams whether you like it or not. By admission, over half the Bible is a book of Dreams and Visions. Scary isn’t it. It doesn’t seam fair that God would speak to half the authors in dreams and half as robotic scribes does it. Especially since the salvation message is found in John’s and Paul’s writings, both admitted dreamers writers.
I have listened to thousands of sermons. I have never heard a sermon on the origin of the Bible, or about how little is known of the authors and dates ( defined as ghost writers in today’s terminology), when it was compiled, by whom, who picked the books to be included, etc.
When a preacher quotes Romans 3:23 by saying: “All have sinned a come short of the glory of God“, he will never explain that this was written by Paul and he received this thought through a vision. We have to understand it through that context. Instead we are brainwashed into thinking every word is inspired. Which is also never explained in detail.
Here is the kicker:
2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness“. This is the main verse for Biblical inherency. You will never hear it mentioned that Paul received a vision telling him this fact. The church act as though God reached down and ripped the pen out of the authors hand and wrote it himself.
God gave you a brain to reason, do not waste it blindly listening to others. Figure it out for yourself.
Standing in the middle you get it from both sides.
I commend your ability to embrace the mystery in this life.
Here are a couple of my favorite quotes:
"Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
– Voltaire
Anonymous said...
"Loftus, who according to his own book, lied to his congregation, his wife, and his friends, is a real piece of work."
I have not read your book, but now am interested. What this sounds like, and I am jumping to unfounded conclusions here, is that you wrote honestly in your book about the struggle with your faith while you were in a position of leadership in your church. How you continued on in your work while you were in the process of trying to make sense of christianity, knowing that to express your doubts would just mess up the situation more.
I am making these guesses based on how I would probably handle the same situation. Am I close?
If so, then the anonymous christian poster just jumped in your shit for being honest and thoughtful. Good riddance to them.
By the way, I noticed that they stopped by, but still would not answer your challenge.
Greg Bahnsen point out that the atheist has to borrow a Christian world view to even raise the issue.
So attached is the response Loftus is looking for.
In conclusion, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Latter Day Saints religious ideas and scriptures were all gathered from dreams, trances and visions of men. The further we get from the original dreamer, the more literal we interpret their dreams. So every fundamental believer and nation want to argue, fight and kill - not in the name of God but in their belief in ancient dreams. I hope this all isn’t a case of consumed spicy food before the prophets took their afternoon naps.
Says who? Says Bahnsen? Is he an apostle now?
All of life lives off the death of other life. Nothing can remain alive without feeding off the dead. Something has to give up the ghost every time you sit down to a meal. Even disease is nothing more than one life form feeding off another.
This death-centered world is the wonderfully perfect Eden your ridiculous creator designed: one filled with violence, death, and what is generally defined as evil.
If your "god" exists, he's one cruel, merciless, unimaginative son-of-a-bitch.
However, if your god doesn't exist, then the world and life just is the way it is because it is the way it is. There is no need to find some great moral "standard" in nature. There are no moral standards in Ape communities, dog packs, or bacteria cultures. It falls to us to determine the standards for how we are going to get along. Does that sound scary to you? Well, guess what, Basement Dweller... that is exactly what has been going on since history began. The idiotic stories of cruel retribution for crimes in the Bible are not reflective of "godly standards of right and wrong," but human experiments in crafting some kind of orderly society. We are still experimenting. As you know, since you are apparently a Reconstructionist, democratic governments are considered anathema to your particular version of God.
You can have a firsthand experience of what it's like under dogmatic, theocratic rule if you so desire. Just move to Iran.
That's pretty hilarious. Good stuff!
Um, for the Atheist, "evil" is simply a matter of amoral behavior, which more times than not, means committing unnecessarily harmful acts to another. Many times it is committed by people who are mentally ill(as opposed to "possessed")
So let's see, now.... we can't really sit back and say that Christianity has a monopoly on objective morality, can we?... well, that is, unless killing all of us "evil" non-believers is the "moral" thing to do.
So, if you want to talk about "borrowing"---let's consider the fact that the Christian has to "borrow from the Atheist world-view" in order to deny all other deities but their own. They apparently also "borrow" from humanity's ethical code, because I can't remember the last time I heard of a Christian throwing rocks at prostitutes, rebellious teens, or people who earn a living on the "Sabbath".
Have a fabulous day.
Lance, you are dead on. I was dishonest in some ways while a Christian, yes. I think Christianity makes dishonest people. Now I can be honest about my former dishonesty and with myself to the point of writing a "tell all" book about it. That takes some guts wouldn't you think?...and some brutal honesty. Surely gutless anononymous would not dare be honest enough to parade his own hypocrisy in from of us using his real name.
If you where His boss you'd fire his &ss. What an incompetent F up you'd be thinking.
"Mary ,get me that damn Jehovah in her right now."
Jehovah enters your office
"Jehovah, WTF are you doing? I give a total cush job on that damn tiny blue planet off some Podunk little sun and I'm still getting all these compliments."
Jehovah looks down and mumbles something.
"Look Jehovah is this yours? Is this Exodus 34:26 your idea of a brilliant 10th commandment? THou shalt not boil a baby goat in it's mother's milk? What do need some time off , do you need to get in rehab? You sound drunker than than that David Hasselhof guy on You Tube for Christ sake. It's like you and him are eating hamburgers off the floor coming up with these ridiculous laws and commandmants that are just making the rest of us look uncaring and inept.
In the beginning it looked like you where really sharp but it really went down hill fast. I'm just .. well ...I'm sorry but your fired.
but, after reading it, and reading some other stuff about other world's religions i came to the conclusion that the bible is not that original as I thought it was, not at all.
why do christians defend god, can't he defend himself ?lol, or, when there's no argument for something, they blame satan or people( "it's because we have sinned"- oh come on!!!)
if I'm to spend eternity with the god from the bible, I gladly choose hell :))
someone here said something like this: god gave us free will, you can choose to believe or not believe... yeah, sure, the bible says so, but then, why are you punished to spend eternity in hell?
and what about those that can't choose, because they never heard of jesus? and they live in a hell, and after they day they go to hell again...
we're alone, and we die alone...
Non sequitur. Don't quit your day job to teach classes in logic and critical thinking.
"He is God. He owes you nothing and may do with you as He sees fit."
So you admit that your god is an abusive, controlling prick.
But we knew that already... We've read the Bible.
"You are the cruel one who has usurped the throne..."
Mwahahaha! And I'm not giving it back.
"You will find this out when you take your last breath."
Actually, I don't think so. After we take our respective last breaths, no one will be in much of a position to find out anything, let alone act upon it.
Persistence of human personality after death is a myth. Deal with it.
"Why would you even bother spending the time engaging others in what you believe to be non-existent."
Because of ignorant idiots like you, Anonymouse. If religious zealots would just keep their mythological biases in the privacy of their own minds, and not try to force arbitrary religious "rules" on the rest of society, we would happily leave them all the fuck alone.
"A slave of the LORD Jesus"
How sad.
May the truth shall set you free.
New logic, interesting;
If definitely "not" X, therefore absolutely X...
Let's test; The Christian God is definitely "not" fake, therefore the Christian God is absolutely fake...
Well, such logic does have its appeal.
BTW,I never confessed(agreed with)your devilish(slanderous)creed. By your own words you will be condemned. Re: Astreja quote "So you admit that..."
"Mwahahaha! And I'm not giving it back." Your life is as a vapor so it won't be long until you must.
"Actually, I don't think so..." You've been wrong before so one last time will sum it up forever.
"Persistence of human personality after death is a myth. Deal with it." Jesus already dealt with it on my behalf and rolled the stone away...so much for myth. I perceive you're an ignorant man having never done any research as to the veracity of the resurrection of Christ. Josh McDowell documented many infallible proofs and recorded them in his book Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Many others have done the same. The evidence is irrefutable. It is not that you cannot believe as much as it is that you will not believe.
"Because of ignorant idiots like you, Anonymouse. If religious zealots would just keep their mythological biases in the privacy of their own minds, and not try to force arbitrary religious "rules" on the rest of society, we would happily leave them all the fuck alone." How about yourself? Will you take your own pill? The Kingdom of God is growing...and the prophets of Baal can't stop it.
"A slave of the LORD Jesus" AMEN.
"How sad.May the truth shall set you free." Who's slave are you Astreja? You are not qualified to answer because there is no truth in you.
February 04, 2008
Dave8 said...
"New logic, interesting;..." and so on. Shall I call you Confucius or Confusion?
WOW! Total Depravity in black and white!
Seeing you thus disregard so great a God, is it a heinous thing for God to slight you, a little, wretched, despicable creature; a worm, a mere nothing, and less than nothing; a vile insect, that has risen up in contempt against the Majesty of heaven and earth?
Why should God be looked upon as obliged to bestow salvation upon you, when you have been so ungrateful for the mercies he has bestowed upon you already? God has tried you with a great deal of kindness, and he never has sincerely been thanked by you for any of it. God has watched over you, and preserved you, and provided for you, and followed you with mercy all your days; and yet you have continued sinning against him. He has given you food and raiment, but you have improved both in the service of sin. He has preserved you while you slept; but when you arose, it was to return to the old trade of sinning. God, notwithstanding this ingratitude, has still continued his mercy; but his kindness has never won your heart, or brought you to a more grateful behaviour towards him. It may be you have received many remarkable mercies, recoveries from sickness, or preservations of your life when exposed by accidents, when if you had died, you would have gone directly to hell; but you never had any true thankfulness for any of these mercies. God has kept you out of hell, and continued your day of grace, and the offers of salvation, so long a time; while you did not regard your own salvation so much as in secret to ask God for it. And now God has greatly added to his mercy to you, by giving you the strivings of his Spirit, whereby a most precious opportunity for your salvation is in your hands. But what thanks has God received for it? What kind of returns have you made for all this kindness? As God has multiplied mercies, so have you multiplied provocations.
And yet now are you ready to quarrel for mercy, and to find fault with God, not only that he does not bestow more mercy, but to contend with him, because he does not bestow infinite mercy upon you, heaven with all it contains, and even himself, for your eternal portion. What ideas have you of yourself, that you think God is obliged to do so much for you, though you treat him ever so ungratefully for his kindness wherewith you have been followed all the days of your life.
You have voluntarily chosen to be with Satan in his enmity and opposition to God; how justly therefore might you be with him in his punishment! You did not choose to be on God's side, but rather chose to side with the devil, and have obstinately continued in it, against God's often repeated calls and counsels. You have chosen rather to hearken to Satan than to God, and would be with him in his work. You have given yourself up to him, to be subject to his power and government, in opposition to God; how justly therefore may God also give you up to him, and leave you in his power, to accomplish your ruin! Seeing you have yielded yourself to his will, to do as he would have you, surely God may leave you in his hands to execute his will upon you. If men will be with God's enemy, and on his side, why is God obliged to redeem them out of his hands, when they have done his work? Doubtless you would be glad to serve the devil, and be God's enemy while you live, and then to have God your friend, and deliver you from the devil, when you come to die. But will God be unjust if he deals otherwise by you? No, surely! It will be altogether and perfectly just, that you should have your portion with him with whom you have chosen to work; and that you should be in his possession to whose dominion you have yielded yourself; and if you cry to God for deliverance, he may most justly give you that answer. Judges 10:14. "Go to the gods which you have chosen."" J.E.
"God Himself has testified of and against persons such as yourself."
No, you fucking idiot. People pretending to speak for your imaginary god did so.
"I speak religious bullshit and you hate it."
Fixed it for you.
"Yes, I do fear Him."
Sucks to be you.
" 'Persistence of human personality after death is a myth. Deal with it.' Jesus already dealt with it on my behalf and rolled the stone away..."
It's a story, you mindless drone. A S-T-O-R-Y. I doubt very much that Jesus came back from the dead.
"Josh McDowell documented many infallible proofs"...
... Not so infallible, it would seem. McDowell's apologetics are woefully weak. Just for starters, he makes a big deal of the alleged sinlessness of Jesus and completely ignores "Why do you call me good?" from Mark 10:18.
Here is a collection of essays that critique "Evidence" in detail.
"It is not that you cannot believe as much as it is that you will not believe."
Then blame it on your pathetic little god. I *never* believed. Even after reading the Bible. (You'd think that Yahweh would be at least powerful enough to sway the mind and heart of a curious, intelligent six-year-old girl. Guess not.)
"How about yourself? Will you take your own pill?"
Um... Last I checked, *you* came to *our* site. I don't go around kicking in the doors at Christian websites.
Nor do I go around knocking on people's doors insisting that they accept Oðinn as their Allfather lest they get raven poop in their hair.
Nor do I hire billboard firms to put up huge signs reading 'Keep Thor in Thursday'.
And I certainly don't lobby to make My favourite mythological rules into secular law. (Although I wouldn't mind seeing court witnesses swearing on a silver oath-ring, and a mead-enriched sumbel at the opening of legislative assemblies would definitely make the speeches more entertaining.)
"The Kingdom of God is growing...and the prophets of Baal can't stop it."
(tilts Her head and smiles wistfully) Y'know, Baal wasn't a bad kid. A bit needy sometimes, but a damn fine gardener.
"You are not qualified to answer because there is no truth in you..."
Takk fyrir for making an absolute statement. I need only speak one truth to make you a liar.
1+1=2.
Now go finish the job of destroying Christianity. I'm on My coffee break.
Therefore, your omniscient God knew people were pre-destined to lose his favor.
Aninny: "You are contributing to His decree which is from eternity and is being revealed in history."
Therefore, everything is going according to your "God plan", people are pre-destined to not be in God's favor (Hell).
Obviously, by being pre-destined (your words); we are the living proof of your God's selection of our pre-destination.
Aninny: "I am sure glad that He chose to bring me to His side."
Again, pre-destination, you had no choice in the matter; your mythical God pre-selected you to be in favor.
A few things; if we are pre-destined;
--There is nothing we can do to change our lot in life, according to "your" belief system.
--If you attempt to "speak" for a God, that makes you "God", in terms of "knowledge". Remember, if your God is omnipotent, then your God can "change" their mind, the only way for you to "know" what your God's pre-destination plan looks like at this very moment - is for you to be God.
This means, aninny, you are either; a self-delusional, yet happy mental invalid, or The Christian God.
I'm going to speculate you are more the former, and if the later, you created me and knew what I was going to say at this very moment, “all Christians are pre-destined to Hell” and since pre-destination is based on God’s will, it would appear that this is the exact message your God wanted me to convey.
So, the True Christian... teaches little children to think of themselves as...
"a little, wretched, despicable creature; a worm, a mere nothing, and less than nothing; a vile insect,..."
Once they are taught they are trash, and worthless, they try to be "good", and seek acceptance, because that is what children do. And the True Christian offers them the opportunity to no longer be trash, but only on one condition; that they accept that they will never be any better than they are, still trash, but with the opportunity to at least be more than trash after death - only if, they give their life to following the words of the one who tells them they are trash.
Actually, the God concept is a mental construct, the psychology and techniques used to indoctrinate children, are vile and heinous, and religious leaders and Christians that use these tactics should be sent to prison. While in prison, they should have to wear a number that represents their crime, so all of the children who end up in prison, because they were told they were trash and couldn’t find their way out of that confusion, can easily identify them as the child abuse offender they are.
"Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds:
(With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds." -- Surah 81: Al Takwir v. 27 - 29.
See how silly it is to quote magical holy books?
There is no evidence of your god, your scary bogey-man (the devil), angels, an undead man-god, or any other of the magical creatures of myth in your book.
Oh, and a piece of advice. Watch out spreading that dogmatism of yours at work. Most people will find it a bit wacky.
Yes! such are we all in our natural state...may I add two more,wicked fools and maggots. Goodbye-see you on judgment day. I won't be replying again. BTW Your opinions are elementary...quite childish I might add.
I reject your advice! I will/have testified to truth in spite of the most who reject it. The elect of God whom Jesus died for will believe. I will be replying no more.
Obviously, by being pre-destined (your words); we are the living proof of your God's selection of our pre-destination.
Again, pre-destination, you had no choice in the matter; your mythical God pre-selected you to be in favor.
YES! YES! YES! That is true with the exception of one word,mythical."There is nothing we can do to change our lot in life, according to "your" belief system." The command is to believe and God doesn't owe you faith either so we're left at His mercy. Remember,your assumption is that man is basically good. I believe we are all criminals condemned already. If the governor pardons one out of 10 murderers will you call him unjust? He was gracious to one and gave the rest justice. Why blame the governor for crimes which received just deserts.
--"If you attempt to "speak" for a God, that makes you "God", in terms of "knowledge". Remember, if your God is omnipotent, then your God can "change" their mind..." Yes! Not only can He,but He must if they are to believe and live. Neither He nor I make any apologies for this truth. "“all Christians are pre-destined to Hell” and since pre-destination is based on God’s will, it would appear that this is the exact message your God wanted me to convey." You may say what you will but you will give account for every word to God who you don't believe in. YES! Predestination is true. YES! You have conveyed exactly what is in your heart and God has predestined it to be so. This conversation and ALL else has been pre-determined. Remember Jesus'
words to Pilate,"you'd have no power over me unless it were given you of my Father." "It is appointed unto a man once to die and then the judgment." No more replies from me to you unless you show remorse. Reason: "Do not cast your pearls before swine","Give not that which is holy to dogs".
Sounds, like you have a good handle on what it means to be a True Christian. I will not be responding back to you, since you feel you are a maggot - I can't figure out how you are typing as larvae ;-) Enjoy your demented view of humanity, if that is what it takes for you to feel good about yourself - Peace
Obviously you've never researched the matter. Jesus is the central figure of history,i.e. B.C. and A.D. Jesus is LORD and you WILL bow one day. Fight if you will but none ever beat death. It'll be over for you and then you will have no more "doubt". " I *never* believed. Even after reading the Bible. (You'd think that Yahweh would be at least powerful enough to sway the mind and heart of a curious, intelligent six-year-old girl. Guess not.)
No you NEVER did believe. YES God is able to change any heart and change any mind if He chooses. Is anyone making you hate Him now but yourself? Don't play the blame game as the judicial system and psychology is playing. Get real,you are the blame and no one else. When you come to terms with that there may be some hope for you. BTW christmas is only paganism repackaged. I agree,let's take christ out of it and put the X back. 1+1=2 is mathematically true. When I speak of Truth I speak of spiritual Truth or super-natural and not merely natural. If you show remorse and want to dialogue I will do so. Otherwise I will reply no more for the same reasons given to the others(your friends).
So, if you have any pearls and want to share them, I urge you to respond to this thread's author, and display them, so they can be examined - Peace
"No one ever beat death..." Well, at least you got that part right.
No one... Including your mythological Jesus.
I doubt that either of us will be doing much bowing to anyone beyond the moments of our respective deaths, as our minds and bodies will disintegrate and the "soul" is just unproven mythology.
"Get real, you are the blame and no one else. When you come to terms with that there may be some hope for you."
Hope is the denial of reality. And I gladly accept full responsibility for My feelings about Christianity. It has done grievous harm to the people of this world.
"BTW christmas is only paganism repackaged. I agree, let's take christ out of it and put the X back."
Um... You do realize that you're speaking to a Scandinavian heiðinn, don't you? We *invented* Jól. If you want to take Jesus out of it, go right ahead; I won't lift a finger to stop you.
(While you're at it, kindly take him out of Easter, too. That's My holiday, thankyouverymuch.)
"1+1=2 is mathematically true. When I speak of Truth I speak of spiritual Truth or super-natural and not merely natural."
Spirituality is subjective and the "supernatural" is a myth. Not truth in any objective sense.
"If you show remorse and want to dialogue I will do so."
No, I'd rather you just leave this site. Your self-righteous religious twaddle is tiresome in the extreme.
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