They Don’t SPEAK for ME!
by Bruce Gerencser of Restless Wanderings
They all use the same Bible.
They all believe the same Bible.
They all worship the same God.
They all believe the same about Jesus.
They all believe the same about man’s need of redemption.
They all believe in heaven and hell.
Whether they call themselves Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or Baptist they believe the same.
Whether they are a part of a denomination or independent they believe the same. Whether they are liberal, charismatic, conservative, or fundamentalist they believe the same.
Regardless of the name over the door every Christian Church essentially believe the same.
The cardinal doctrines are settled. God is God. Jesus is Jesus.The Bible is truth.
Yes, they differ in matters of eschatology, worship styles, music. social rules, government and politics BUT these matters are peripheral to the central truth of the Christian Church, Jesus the Christ crucified and raised from the dead.
Yet, a funny thing happens when a noted Christian pastor/bishop/elder/priest/para-church leader says something controversial…
Well, they don’t speak for me!
They don’t represent me.
They don’t speak for all Christians.
As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.
But they are.
So it with the Christian Church.
Try as they might to distance themselves from the crazy uncles in their midst, the uncles are still part of the family. It is called the family of God. The blood washed band.
So stop trying to pretend that Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Jack Van Impe, Al Mohler, John Piper, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Creflo Dollar, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Joyce Meyers, Paula White, Jack Hyles, Bob Gray, Ernest Angley, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Jim Wallis, the Pope, etal are NOT a part of your family.
TBN, GOD TV, and the Church channel represent you.
When Pat Robertson gives his latest prophecy he speaks for you.
When the Pope condemns condom use in Africa he speaks for you.
When Rick Warren condemns homosexuality he speaks for you.
As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.
But they are.
So it with the Christian Church.When Al Mohler, John Piper and every Calvinist let the world know that God is in the killing, maiming and destruction business they speak for you.
When hate-mongering Christian Michele Bachmann waxes eloquently about God she speaks for you.
When James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Doug Phillips, Gary Demar, Rousas Rushdoony speak they speak for you.
When the Southern Baptists pass resolutions about homosexuality and women in the ministry they speak for you
When a politician invokes the name of the Christian God they speak for you.
When a priest molests a boy his actions reflect on you.
When Ted Haggard smokes crack and has sex with homosexual prostitutes his actions reflect on you.
When your pastor steals, lies, and sleeps around his actions reflect on you.
When a Christian nation on behalf of a Christian God bombs the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and
Pakistan and kills tens of thousands of people they do it in your name.
They are YOUR family.
They worship the same God as you. They read from the same Bible as you. They believe in the same Jesus as you do.
Object all you will about my unfair judgment…
The NON-Christian world sees things just like I have represented them here.
The FORMER-Christian sees things just like I have represented them here. They see the Bible as the problem. They know to abandon the Bible is to abandon Christianity. They see no other solution to this problem but rejecting the Bible. It is the Bible that is at that foundation of all the speaking that goes on in God’s name. God has spoken! Where? In the Bible.
Every wild, bizarre, vile pronouncement that Christians make are propped up by the Bible. Book, chapter, and verse.
What is your response to this post? Do you want to beat me up, in Jesus name of course? Do you want to straighten me out? Do you want to expose my biases, my errors in judgment? Do you want to attack me and tell me I have an axe to grind or that I am jaded, cynical, and hateful? (all true BTW)
Anything but deal with the main premise of this post.
They all use the same Bible.They all believe the same Bible.
They all worship the same God.
They all believe the same about Jesus.
They all believe the same about man’s need of redemption.
They all believe in heaven and hell.
Whether they call themselves Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or Baptist they believe the same.
Whether they are a part of a denomination or independent they believe the same. Whether they are liberal, charismatic, conservative, or fundamentalist they believe the same.
Regardless of the name over the door every Christian Church essentially believe the same.
The cardinal doctrines are settled. God is God. Jesus is Jesus.The Bible is truth.
Yes, they differ in matters of eschatology, worship styles, music. social rules, government and politics BUT these matters are peripheral to the central truth of the Christian Church, Jesus the Christ crucified and raised from the dead.
Yet, a funny thing happens when a noted Christian pastor/bishop/elder/priest/para-church leader says something controversial…
Well, they don’t speak for me!
They don’t represent me.
They don’t speak for all Christians.
As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.
But they are.
So it with the Christian Church.
Try as they might to distance themselves from the crazy uncles in their midst, the uncles are still part of the family. It is called the family of God. The blood washed band.
So stop trying to pretend that Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Jack Van Impe, Al Mohler, John Piper, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Creflo Dollar, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Joyce Meyers, Paula White, Jack Hyles, Bob Gray, Ernest Angley, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Jim Wallis, the Pope, etal are NOT a part of your family.
TBN, GOD TV, and the Church channel represent you.
When Pat Robertson gives his latest prophecy he speaks for you.
When the Pope condemns condom use in Africa he speaks for you.
When Rick Warren condemns homosexuality he speaks for you.
As with real families when the crazy uncles says or does something bizarre we are quick to distance ourselves from them. We pretend they are not a part of our family.
But they are.
So it with the Christian Church.When Al Mohler, John Piper and every Calvinist let the world know that God is in the killing, maiming and destruction business they speak for you.
When hate-mongering Christian Michele Bachmann waxes eloquently about God she speaks for you.
When James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Doug Phillips, Gary Demar, Rousas Rushdoony speak they speak for you.
When the Southern Baptists pass resolutions about homosexuality and women in the ministry they speak for you
When a politician invokes the name of the Christian God they speak for you.
When a priest molests a boy his actions reflect on you.
When Ted Haggard smokes crack and has sex with homosexual prostitutes his actions reflect on you.
When your pastor steals, lies, and sleeps around his actions reflect on you.
When a Christian nation on behalf of a Christian God bombs the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and
Pakistan and kills tens of thousands of people they do it in your name.
They are YOUR family.
They worship the same God as you. They read from the same Bible as you. They believe in the same Jesus as you do.
Object all you will about my unfair judgment…
The NON-Christian world sees things just like I have represented them here.
The FORMER-Christian sees things just like I have represented them here. They see the Bible as the problem. They know to abandon the Bible is to abandon Christianity. They see no other solution to this problem but rejecting the Bible. It is the Bible that is at that foundation of all the speaking that goes on in God’s name. God has spoken! Where? In the Bible.
Every wild, bizarre, vile pronouncement that Christians make are propped up by the Bible. Book, chapter, and verse.
What is your response to this post? Do you want to beat me up, in Jesus name of course? Do you want to straighten me out? Do you want to expose my biases, my errors in judgment? Do you want to attack me and tell me I have an axe to grind or that I am jaded, cynical, and hateful? (all true BTW)
Anything but deal with the main premise of this post.
Comments
I sense very much anger from you, we can heal. Allah is peace, and he offers his peace to you. It is clear you have not read the Quran carefully, or you too would have come to realize the truth it holds. The Quran as given to us by the Prophet, peace be upon him, is all thaat matters. Give yourself to Him. No one has ever written a book like the Quran. It is the only divine truth. Open your heart.
Yeah, we totally fed the troll. :(
Atheism, does not 'drive' behavior, any more than lacking a billion dollars makes someone an idiot, unless, that is a case you want to defend.
Anti-theism, is a position that rejects theisms' premise that gods can/do exist.
Stalin and Pol Pot do not speak for me, because atheism is 'not' a collective, it is 'not' hierarchal, in short, you have 'zilch' to infer from, just as there is nothing for you to infer about someone who lacks a billion dollars, regarding their values and beliefs.
On the contrary, if someone is following a religious doctrine and they are 'committed' to that doctrine, a lot can be inferred about their 'point-of-view' - by-doctrine, and how they 'should' behave in a particular situation.
Now... ironically, I was going to actually respond to the author of this article, and I still may.
he reminds me of a little boy who has a secret that only he knows about, but can't wait to tell someone else -- but only if they beg a lot and ask pretty please! he seems to think he has THE answer and he only wants to enlighten everyone (cause he has the truth). and, by golly, he won't go away until we listen. after all he has "contemplated and realized the deepest meaning of the bible" which he is happy to share with us if only he knew we wouldn't reject it. he knows "what it means to be a christian" and "he understands the bible in its proper context".
so, ACatholic, since none of us have "bothered to find out your position" or "understand your full point of view" and this is what you state you want to accomplish with all of this, would you PRETTY PLEASE tell us all what we are so obviously in need of knowing, what we have all so blatantly overlooked in our search for truth. cause if someone out there has the TRUTH (finally) i want to know it.
please enlighten us. how did i create my own hell? god is transnatural? how did you find out this truth that no one else seems to know?
Children/young people? It matters not. The punishment for laughing at baldness should never be death. How do you know it is an allegory? On what authority? I suspects it is deemed to be allegory because it is too inconvenient a display of the capricious and cruel nature of your god.
I will address your other points later - I have a lecture to go to.
Peace,
David
What. The. Fck?
Well going by the DICTIONARY it's more something like this:
Systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
Again, Wtf!
Wow, demonizing people to justify killing them. Where have we heard that before?
This has nothing to do with anything here, but I am convinced that there is no afterlife after clinically dying and seeing nothing. Absolutely nothing. I can tell you however, that what I have read is true about dying: The last thing to go really is your hearing. At least I am no longer afraid of dying since I now know there is no hell. Since most of humanity is supposedly slated for that place, no wonder so many fear death. I did until I knew better.
Life has so much more meaning when you accept that this is the only one you have and there are no do-overs.
How have you gotten rid of your guilt?
Do you still go to confession or is that old school (or not done in your country)?
I read you list of books that you have read......A lot of study about Gays.......Hmmmm, I think your are fibbing again......I think you are gay!!!
It's O.K. Be who you are. You can even revel in the thought that God made you that way! Of course, in your case, your God doesn't like gays (it is made very plain and obvious in Scripture). So you are faced with a huge dilemma.....How to please your new age, 'trans-natural' God, with so many 'natural' feelings going on iside of you.
I still say you must be young (I consider anyone under 40 to be young). Your passionate and un-yeilding manner; your arrogant and solipsistic mindset; your inability to comprehend the purpose of this web-site; your compartmentalized thinking (just to name a few)......
These are all traits of a young and un-seasoned mind.
Spend a few more years in contemplation. Read a lot more 'Real' science. Read some real scholars, such as Bart D. Ehrman (I don't think I saw him on your list). Spend some time researching how your Holy Scriptures came to be the Bible in 325-326 BCE at the first council of Nicea. After that, study the second council of Nicea which took place around 400 years later (where everything was changed).
You make some very wrong assumptions my Asian friend. First of all, this site is called Ex-Christian not Atheist.net. Many who come to this site (in fact I would say most) are not Atheist.
We have many ex-catholics and even one of two ex-priests (and at least one ex-nun).
Some of us are Atheist, but by no means all.
Anyway, I grow tired of this exchange; nothing new here.....a guilt ridden, morbidly ignorant, closeted Gay, from a superstitious and multi-religion-based country, comes here to tell us dumb Americans that we don't 'Truely Understand' the Bible! Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah!
I feel sorry for you, acatholic. You are destined to live in guilt and fear and ignorance for the remainder of your days unless you 'get a clue'. Whether you choose to be a Theist or an Athesist is really not the issue here. The issue is this:
You will never find Reality by studying a dead book which was NOT penned by God.....Oh, and by the way......Jesus NEVER LIVED!
I do wish you peace, really ( I was a Christian for 40 years and never knew real peace). I know what peace is, now that I have left behind a dead religion for the life and vibrancy of Reality, Science and Free Thought!
Again I say to you, Peace
XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)
If you disagree with my assertion, that you didn't understand any of what you read, then apply the same logic from your refutation to your assertion. I, and others here, have read the Bible. I, and others here, have understood the Bible. I, and others here, recognize the Bible as a highly symbolic work, filled with cruelty and starring an evil god.
I agree 100%, Ren, and facing such a reality is much better than living a delusion.
Like most trolls, he comes here to spout his boilerplate at us then go trotting back to pastor wagging his tail about how he "ministered to the poor backsliders" and collects an extra cookie at communion.
Be humble. Accept that you don't know everything, and that sometimes, some people may know more than you. And most of all, read the disclaimer, which many people have repeatedly shown you, and consider your own appalling behavior.
It has to be a "he", who else would have that much time to do all that reading! Men have uninterrupted "potty time" to do their extra, while women are constantly being bombarded with questions, requests, even during "private" moments. So this is a guy.
Since he is the south pacific area, if my memory serves me right, which it doesn't always, he's probably rich and educated, probably some kind of education in England, the "our" in one of his words, labour, I believe. Couldn't be a poor, uneducated guy, since he wouldn't have the time to read all that stuff. Too busy working.
I would also speculate that he's probably used to being submitted to. No one would dare disagree with him, so maybe royality, or in the ministry. Is there a difference? Must have a household of staff or students, or parishners or something like that.
He'll stick around until someone gives him the time he needs to get his point across, and tell him he's right.
I would also have to say he's a narcassist (sp?), but you know what I mean. No compassion for anyone, doesn't care to listen to anyone but himself and his ideas, is unable to understand anyone else's emotions.
I've enjoyed following the discussions, and seeing this guy and his arguements be smashed each time!
I think you nailed it. ;-)
Quite a bit up there ^ I left a comment to you after you listed all the books that you've read. I gave you some answers, and a good recommendation for a well-respected book that I thought would answer many questions for you. You didn't even acknowledge it !
That's what I get for trying to be helpful. In our country we have a word for people who are respectful & considerate of others, it's called CLASS. You may want to try to obtain that status.
No worries. Islam is in the same category, as well as any and all other funnymentalist religions who try to impose their beliefs on others.
No worries there. Islam is in the same category, as well as any and all other funnymentalist religions who try to impose their beliefs on others.
And just to be clear, by "hate" I mean hate the religion (sin) not the religionist (sinner).
Quite a bit up there ^ I left a comment to you after you listed all the books that you've read. I gave you some answers, and a good recommendation for a well-respected book that I thought would answer many questions for you. You didn't even acknowledge it !
That's what I get for trying to be helpful. In our country we have a word for people who are respectful & considerate of others, it's called CLASS. You may want to try to obtain that status.
Sharon
Are you kidding? Your condescension is insufferable! And stop peppering your pronouncements with "Ah" and "Hmm" - you sound like an ass.
Ah, but then you don't dare to do so because you fear re-converting
Just as you fear deconverting, which is why you argue for your position with people who have no interest n anything you have to say - you're terrified you may be wrong.
acatholic, you're a Christian stereotype; the tragedy is that you don't know it. Your arguments are cliches, and have been refuted many times, here and elsewhere. It isn't our responsbility to repeat all of it for you.
You really have no clue as to what you're talking about, especially as regards your "analysis" of the process of deconversion. You're impressing no one here but yourself.
You keep talking about translation and context. I'll repeat my earlier recommendation - go and read materials written by Jewish scholars, people who have an understanding of the original Hebrew that isn't colored by a devotion to your Mother Church, then get back to us.
1) The unifying common denominator for all atheists is that they 'lack' a belief in a god/s. Atheism, is humanity’s default/benign/blank slate (non-psychological) position at birth.
Therefore, ‘all’ atheists don’t believe the same thing… they all ‘non-believe’ a particular concept, by natural/selective passivity.
2) The unifying common denominator for all anti-theists is that they reject theism’s premise, e.g., the basis for substantiating god/s.
Therefore, ‘all’ anti-theists ‘do’ believe the same thing: Theism is untenable & should be rejected.
*Not ‘all’ atheists are anti-theists; I’m the former, not the latter.
However, even though I passively dismiss the need to erect a ‘god’ concept psychologically; I’m ‘anti-(anti-intellectualism)’.
Regardless of belief, if one applies an anti-intellectual method to support ‘any’ argument/belief, to include theistic/religious, I consistently challenge them to form and understand their position, it’s not a ‘value’ concern for me, it’s an ‘approach’ concern.
Okay, so who wants to dress up as what?
Well considering we're creating our own hell -- I'll just dress in some Bermuda shorts and a loud Hawaiian shirt, which will go quite well with the perfect Maui sunsets, waterfalls, never-ending Mai Tais, hula-hula girls, that I conjured up for my reality in hades!
--S.
How very convenient for your sick and unconscionable argument that your religion considers all of humanity to be tainted by Original Sin.
"Incidentally, if you believe so strongly that the Bible is a work of fiction, why do you bother so much about the welfare of the Amalekites, who by logic are only imagined characters?"
The Bible is not 100% fiction. It makes reference to the occasional real person or real place, and it's possible that the Amalekites were an actual tribe who were attacked and murdered by the Israelites.
That, however, is not the point. The very fact that you are making excuses for the Biblical account of the slaughter means that your own moral compass is swinging wildly in the magnetic field of cognitive dissonance.
And that means that you, acatholic, should not be trusted with either power or responsibility. An individual who values the reputation of his invisible friend above the pain and suffering of other sentient beings has declared moral bankruptcy.
Post a Comment