Whose Red Herring?
By ExFundie
I had a discussion with a Christian friend not too long ago about this very topic. He told me that the "I don't like christians" excuse is little more than a red herring. Even though I was thoroughly indoctrinated into that school of thought at one time I asked him to explain what he meant. Below is a recounting of what he said. The quote won't be verbatim, but it will remain true enough to convey his meaning.
During this time I had taken a few notes to keep track of what he said to make sure I responded to each of his points. This is my response to him:
I probably lost a friend that day. Not that he was much of a friend anymore anyway. For the past two or three months our conversations have only consisted of him trying to win me back to Christianity. He acts as if my choice to leave the faith has suddenly made me no smarter than a five year old. He has become condescending and arrogant. It's as if I no longer have value as a person because I no longer believe the way he does.
I'm appalled to realize I once believed that way, but I guess when you live by a creed that throws away logic and reason all you have left is irrational, unreasonable rationalization to explain things that you don't like or understand.
I had a discussion with a Christian friend not too long ago about this very topic. He told me that the "I don't like christians" excuse is little more than a red herring. Even though I was thoroughly indoctrinated into that school of thought at one time I asked him to explain what he meant. Below is a recounting of what he said. The quote won't be verbatim, but it will remain true enough to convey his meaning.
"The claim of not liking christians is merely a lie used to distract from the real truth. The real truth could be one of a variety of things. They won't admit to any of the real truths because a truthful answer would make them look small and immoral.
1. Some people are just looking to take the easy way out. Following God takes work. It can be a real sacrifice. Some people are merely too lazy or selfish to work or make a sacrifice.
2. Some people just don't want to live a moral life. They would rather go on being immoral and doing wrong and they know that if they become a Christian they can't do that.
3. They just want to point fingers at every perceived wrong they see in christians because it's an easy way to convince themselves they don't need god since christians are no better than they are.
4. The whole argument completely avoids the most important thing. It is the spirit of god that does the convicting. If I tell someone the message of Christ the spirit will convict them of the truth. If they choose to reject it that is their choice. However, whether they choose to accept or reject the message is not based on my example or my life. If they try to claim otherwise the only person they are fooling is their own self."
During this time I had taken a few notes to keep track of what he said to make sure I responded to each of his points. This is my response to him:
"Let me start by saying I take offense to the fact that you immediately start by characterizing anyone who does not want to be a Christian as small and immoral. I find it insulting and highly arrogant that you think the only way to be moral is through Christianity. I assure you my morals or how big a person I am are not in question.
You say people are looking for the easy way out? They don't want to sacrifice? They don't want to work? Let me explain something to you. I was born and raised in a Christian home. My wife is a Christian. My whole family are christians. My friends are christians. By not being a Christian I am risking everything. I have worked hard and sacrificed for my new beliefs. It's been more sacrifice than I ever made as a Christian. Don't talk to me about sacrifice and laziness.
People just want to be immoral? Really? So, your telling me that the reason I walked away from Christianity is because I wanted to be immoral. Let me check. I haven't suddenly started robbing banks. I haven't taken to pushing down little old ladies on street corners. I haven't developed a drug habit. I'm not beating on or cheating on my wife. The only thing I am doing that you would disapprove of is that I'm not a Christian. That's it. If I gave you an account of everything I do in a days time you would find nothing wrong with any of it. As a matter of fact you would find that I give more time now helping others than I ever did when I was encumbered by chains of Christian rules and dogmas. It's rather small of you to even insinuate that the reason people don't want to follow god is because they want to be immoral.
I find your phrase 'point out perceived wrongs' to be rather funny. I don't need to convince myself that I'm just as good as you. I don't view myself as any better or worse than anyone else. I'm imperfect. Your imperfect. We all are. I don't give a damn about your wrongs, perceived or real. The only reason it ever comes up is because christians are so intent on pointing out everything they believe to be wrong with us that it just gets sickening. As a matter of fact I would venture a guess that if anyone is using the perceived wrong of others to make themselves feel better it is christians.
That last thing you said is perhaps one of the most repulsive things about Christianity. It's all up to the spirit. The message is so powerful that you act as if there is nothing you could do to mess it up. How convenient for you. As long as you have presented 'the gospel' to me you are completely off the hook about everything else. Who cares if people look at your example of Christianity and run away screaming? Once you told them about god it's all up to the spirit and you can totally absolve yourself of all responsibility. I've got news for you. The way you present yourself and the way you act says more about 'your gospel' than the words you say. If you come off as a self-righteous obnoxious ass your words mean little. When your actions betray your words the words become meaningless. It seems to me that your the one taking the easy way out by taking no responsibility for your own actions.
I find it rather disturbing that you feel being a Christian is the only possible to live a moral life. If the only thing keeping you from a mindless crime spree is the threat of some future eternal damnation then by all means stick with it. I'd rather you be a Christian than a serial killer, but as for me I'm doing just fine being moral without the threat of endless torture hanging over my head.
It seems to me that Christians are the ones that spend their time, often euphorically, pointing fingers at everyone and everything for any perceived wrong they can find. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
As for someone fooling their own self please look in the mirror. You can try to pass the buck all you want. The bottom line is that when you claim to be a Christian then your life, your words, and your actions are representative of what being a Christian is all about. You can claim that once you present the gospel that your actions no longer affect the choice I or someone else will make if it makes you feel better. That doesn't make it true. The truth is your argument is nothing more than a way to absolve yourself of the responsibility of living what you preach."
I probably lost a friend that day. Not that he was much of a friend anymore anyway. For the past two or three months our conversations have only consisted of him trying to win me back to Christianity. He acts as if my choice to leave the faith has suddenly made me no smarter than a five year old. He has become condescending and arrogant. It's as if I no longer have value as a person because I no longer believe the way he does.
I'm appalled to realize I once believed that way, but I guess when you live by a creed that throws away logic and reason all you have left is irrational, unreasonable rationalization to explain things that you don't like or understand.
Comments
god will forgive you at least 7 x 70 times, which should be enough for most people.
Even if you are imprisoned for fraud, tax evasion and sexual peccadillos - an ocupational hazard for televangelists, it appears - you can be sure of both god's and your flocks forgiveness and pick up the same old sheeple-funded lifestyle when you get out of the slammer.
Oh yes, regular forgiveness from a mythical deity must surely bet walking around with atheist/agnostic angst about the small wrong things we are careless about these days.
Thank DAVE for this website!
The one thing I will credit xtianity with is this - it has certainly, much to my chagrin, weathered the storm. It is a false monopoly of morality enforced by fear. The foundation on which this enterprise was built has the tensile strength of wet tissue paper, yet it has withstood centuries as empires have risen and fallen. Unfortunately, the fuel of dolts who continue to choose to believe have propelled this system of beliefs right into the 21st century. Enjoy your life - don't let the loss of s friend get you down.
I agonized for years before I decided to leave the church, then I still worried the "what ifs" for a couple more years. And the only way my behavior changed was that I stayed home on Sundays and spent more time with the kids. I think most people take it a lot slower and their personalities remain very much as they were--just without the god concept.
Just ran it past my older son and he said, "No, you don't."
So there you have it. As my sons, or at least of them because he is here currently, are my witness. Guess I'm a strange person.
My chin dropped at the insane scene of the two of them in the middle of the road, with two crashed cars, on their knees praying. It was INSANE!
Oh, she, of course, thought it was a great thing, but what if someone not paying attention to their driving, was looking at the crash and then at the two of them. Their car could easily hit them. It was totally stupid- at least in the scene I was picturing in my head.
Total nutters. That is for sure.
Me too.
I was visiting my younger son yesterday and the lady next to me, who was not only visiting her son, who was in jail for dealing, had been in jail too. It was almost a "Dead Like Me" moment. Anyway, she was telling her son, who wanted a cigarette, that when he got out he was going to church. I thought, "How is that going to help him? He'll only learn ways to justify his behaviours."
At the same time, my son is in there for trespassing, MIP, shoplifting... all misdemeanors and her response to me was, "Your son's a good boy." I asked her, "He is?" while thinking, "Define "good"." She said, "Yes. He is, because he is not in for dealing drugs." I'm not so sure that not dealing drugs alone qualifies as being good if one is locked up for 60 days and then has to do 28 in rehab afterwards.
My other thought was, "Yeah, lady, and your son probably gave my son the drugs and alcohol for all I know." Come to find out, her son is also 18, so I could probably rule out the alcohol, unless he encouraged my son to shoplift it. Her thinking was that her son was probably going to prison at an early age, while my son only has misdemeanor charges and was not going to prison (yet), therefore he's a good boy. That thinking, along with her insistence her son goes to church after he gets out makes no sense to me.
My thinking is, if you get locked up for any amount of time, means you did something wrong and society is punishing you for it. It's not some supernatural deity one needs to make amends to, but rather society. That's why we have jails and prisons. IF there were truly a supernatural being that punished us, then that being should be smart enough to know that humans need discipline in the here and now, not later.
While Xians love to think that IS God's punishment in the here and now, twisting what is human law and alike into God's retribution, it is really one being forced to take their punishment by society's rules, not some supernatural deity.
IMO, that is some poor parental figure that says, "Oh I forgive you, BUT... do it repeatedly, without asking forgiveness and I'll punish you later." A true parent doesn't wait until years later to discipline their child. They give them time-out, grounding, whatever they chose to discipline their child IMMEDIATELY, not "Oh, well. I'll give you time-out 20 years from now. Meanwhile, you can just go on and irritated me for the next 20 years with your disrespect and hitting." It doesn't work that way. For a child to learn, for example, hitting is wrong, they must be put in time-out, for example, immediately and then explained to as to why hitting is wrong or they never learn why hitting is wrong.
So society says, people under 21 are not allowed to drink and no one, for any reason is to shoplift (these are examples) and when they get caught, they spend some time in a form of "time-out" called jail. This is not any deity's doing, but humans' doing in order for a society to function properly. The believers twist not only this, but say their piss poor parent figure in the sky will punish such people later, UNLESS they go to church and make amends, then this piss poor sky parent lets them go around like Bill Cosby's Adam in the Apple.
It's all stupid thinking and if this sky daddy was really worth his salt as a parent, then more people would get a spanking from him more often and sooner, instead after death.
Of course, the reality of it all is, there is no sky daddy, there is no hell, and there is no reward and punishment after one dies. Society's rules, in the here and now, is all there is and people really need to grow up and face that fact.
That show you saw is so screwed up. So insulting. I was in a Secular Bible class once where we were covering stereotypes. I was the only atheist in the group and was the only one who had experiences of being stereotyped. The other people had NO CLUE! Pft.
It would also be a motivating factor if that deity would make it unequivocally plain that he/she/it AND the reward existed. If you actually KNEW it was there, you might work harder at deserving it. As it stands at the moment, it only serves as a generally inefficient method of crowd control. If only god were a little brighter and knew more about what makes the people he supposedly created tick.
I wish you every success with your son's future.
Peace,
David
I do like British films, where, unless it is a "Mystery at the Vicar's House" type thing, atheism is the norm. Even "Doctor Who" and company are atheists and nobody bats n eye. Can you imagine having a successful show in the US where the hero is a blatant atheist?
Hard to think of a bigger understatement!!
The country would be so much better off.
Agree!! I toggle between anger/frustration, understanding, and pity for/of those responsible for my xtain indoctrination. I find it ironic that the very "seek the truth" type of encouragement and challange from the xtian indoctrination process is what led me to unbelief. I am quite literally unable to comprehend how, with the "seek the truth" stuff and the lack of applying what we use in everyday life (intellectual honesty, full disclosure, probabilistic reasoning, and consistent reasoning from issue to issue), one can still hold on to the xtian religion.
" By not being a Christian I am risking everything. " How true. Non-believers are some of the bravest people I know. To go against the tide of non-reason and admit that the Emperor has no clothes, to me, takes a lot of personal courage....in the face of, dare I say it......SILLINESS !
It isn't easy being a non-believer, but once you are one, you look back and think : " What was I thinking ! ! ! " It's like an anvil is lifted off your weary shoulders.
I get a kick out of apologists who claim law and order and morality would not exist without the Hebrew God and/or Christianity. I wonder if they ever heard of the Code of Hammurabi. It dates back to almost 1800 BCE. It may not be the perfect set of laws by modern standards, but it was drafted about 1,800 years before Bible Jesus. It also makes no reference to the God of the Hebrews. In fact, many archeologists now believe it may be hundreds of years older than any original manuscripts of the Old Testament. It is worth a look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
This was Babylonian law. No input from the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Bible Jesus.
How is it possible??? Morality... not from the Hebrew God or Jesus...
" By not being a Christian I am risking everything. " How true. Non-believers are some of the bravest people I know. To go against the tide of non-reason and admit that the Emperor has no clothes, to me, takes a lot of personal courage....in the face of, dare I say it......SILLINESS !
It isn't easy being a non-believer, but once you are one, you look back and think : " What was I thinking ! ! ! " It's like an anvil is lifted off your weary shoulders.
Agree!! I toggle between anger/frustration, understanding, and pity for/of those responsible for my xtain indoctrination. I find it ironic that the very "seek the truth" type of encouragement and challange from the xtian indoctrination process is what led me to unbelief. I am quite literally unable to comprehend how, with the "seek the truth" stuff and the lack of applying what we use in everyday life (intellectual honesty, full disclosure, probabilistic reasoning, and consistent reasoning from issue to issue), one can still hold on to the xtian religion.
The country would be so much better off.
Hard to think of a bigger understatement!!
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