4/26/2008                                                                                       View Comments

Schism -- the movie



A video portraying aggressive behavior by Christians matched with verses from the Bible is gaining traction on the Internet.

Raed al-Saeed, a young businessman from Saudi Arabia, is the creator of Schism, a six-minute video response to Fitna — a short film released last month that portrays Islam as a violent, fascist-like ideology. "Fitna" provoked anger in many parts of the Muslim world.

Fitna, which in Arabic means discord or social strife, was posted on the Internet by right-wing Dutch politician Geert Wilders. It pairs verses from the Quran exhorting violence with scenes of deadly suicide bombings and planes flying into the World Trade Center.

Saeed, who runs an audio-visual company out of a rundown villa on a quiet, tree-lined street in Riyadh, says he remembers feeling helpless after watching Wilders' video. But then he realized there was a way for him to try to protect his religion and way of life: Answer the video with a video of his own.

A part-time blogger, Saeed decided to use the same technique Wilders used in Fitna. His point was to show that it is possible to make almost any religion look bad.

"It's not the right way to judge a religion by a video made by a guy who hated that religion," Saeed says. "Anybody can take any holy book — even … the Holy Bible — out of context and make it look, sound evil."

His video opens with biblical quotes, including one from the Book of Samuel that urges the destruction of "everything that belongs to" the Amalekites. "Do not spare them," it says, "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

Footage that Saeed found on the Internet follows. One scene shows what appears to be Western soldiers in Iraq beating up alleged insurgents. Another clip is a CNN broadcast of "Shock and Awe," the 2003 aerial bombardment of Baghdad that opened the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

A day after Saeed posted his video on YouTube, it was taken down for having "inappropriate content." He immediately reposted it with a message arguing that if his video was inappropriate, then Wilders' Fitna also should be removed. For now, both videos are available on the site.

Schism had so far been viewed more than 300,000 times on YouTube. Saeed says he has been gratified by the response to his video, noting that many comments about it on YouTube were positive. Several Dutch viewers thanked him and said they disapproved of Fitna.

Saeed says he thinks these people are trying to say that he and others like him are supporting Islam and serving their religion — and the world — better than the likes of Osama bin Laden.

Most of the people commenting on his video understood that he was making a statement about how religions are judged, rather than defaming Christianity, Saeed says.

"It's not my goal to attack Christianity. … I wouldn't attack a religion made by a prophet that I believe in," he says.

Saeed says he believes he is well-qualified to make his video. In November 2003, he was at a residential compound in Riyadh when terrorists attacked with guns and a suicide car bomb. Seventeen people, including five children, died and more than 100 people were injured. Saeed was not hurt, but the experience deeply affected him.

He says he has since read about the attack and how the compound was characterized as hosting FBI and CIA.

"I've been there and I know all the neighbors, I know everybody there. There is a mosque in there. They pray there five times a day. I know what's in there," he says.

Because he survived the horrific attack, Saeed is fond of saying that he has a "new birthday." And following the Arabic practice of putting the day first and the month second, he notes the irony of that date: 9-11-2003.

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50 comments:

ExFundie said...

I vehemently disagree with his ending statements in Schism. I think both movies, Fitna and Schism are warnings that should he headed.

ExFundie said...
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ExFundie said...

or "heeded" rather.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Schism informs us: There is only one god ???

Mr. Raed al-Saeed, if you happen to read this, would you kindly define this '"one god" for us, as well as provide us with your credible evidence that this god actually exists...Thanks.

Ironically, the Schism movie and the Fitna move, both are clear evidence of how violent such deluded god beliefs, can easily become.

The sooner the world wakes up to the reality that no gods requiring worship and obedience exist, the safer all of humanity will be from it's aggressive followers.


ATF (Who wonders if science will ever be able to remove the god-belief-gene from human DNA?)

Telesmith said...

Where's Andrew? Wait don't answer that. (slaps self in head)

rblack said...

Too much text, not enough Muslim killing...

Pull The Other One! said...

Mr al-Saeed doesn't seem to get the point. Yes, anyone can put violent scenes alongside verses from the Bible or Koran...

... but that's only because both books are full of violence-condoning verses to choose from. If that weren't the case, the tactic wouldn't work!

Looi313 said...

This movie is not made by mister al-Saeed. It's made by a Dutch muslim. Mister al-Saeed made also a movie Schism.

Please watch the whole video to understand the message.

I see people have a negative attitude awards religion. Of course there are people who abuse it. Remember most people don't. Don't look to the minority.

I'm asked in one of the reactions to define the only God. The one God is the almighty power. Even if He doesn't exist, He exist in the mind of people, so He exists as a concept. I witness He is more than a concept, but you are free to believe something else, but don't condemn me for what I believe.

chuckyjesus said...

I definitely agree with Pull and Toothfairy, both religions have violent undertones. To say that the violence in their holy books can't be used to criticize the religion is absurd.

They all err - Moslems, Christians, Jews, and Magians:
Two make Humanity's universal sect:
One man intelligent without religion,
And, one religious without intellect.

Al-Ma`arri, 11th century Arab rationalist and poet

chuckyjesus said...

The almighty power to do what? If there's an intelligent being who is omnipotent, why doesn't he do something useful with it? Please don't tell me "free will." If we have free will, then "God" has given up some of his power, and thus is almighty no longer.

Also, floods, disease, earthquakes, etc, have zip to do with free will, yes?

Looi313 said...

Chuckyjesus, you ask me to tell me why God is not using His almighty power.

I don't know. I'm not God. I can't speak for Him.

Pull The Other One! said...

looi313 said:

'Please watch the whole video to understand the message.'

As we've been focusing on the end comments in the video, that rather indicates that we've watched the whole darn thing, don't you think?

We understand what the video-maker is trying to say, we just think it's a load of crap!

Look at it this way. The Bible claims that God created the entire universe, parted the Red Sea, and raised the dead, etc. The Koran makes similar miraculous claims.

If it is possible for God to do all that, wouldn't it also be possible for him to make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that he disapproves of bloodshed, including suicide attacks for religious purposes, and wouldn't he be able to prevent any verses indicating the contrary from finding their way into a book written in his name?

Looi313 said...

Pull the other one, the reason that you have to watch untill the end, is because the first 8.18 is not the movie. You need to see the first 8.18 minutes to understand what the last minute is telling you.

When you don't believe there is one God or there is any God, it doesn't take away the message which is in between 8.18 and 9.14.

AtheistToothFairy said...

Schism directs us to: Make the world a better place

Looi313 wrote:

When you don't believe there is one God or there is any God, it doesn't take away the message which is in between 8.18 and 9.14.
----
Loo,

The message I got from this movie before the 8:18 time mark, is the same message I got from the Fitna movie. That message being; that all over-zealous religious nuts will use their 'god' to justify human violence towards those who do not conform to their own creeds.

While the movie tells us to "make the world a better place", I very much sense that the author's idea of how to accomplish that, is within the scope of requiring some allegiance to this "One God", that Schism also promotes.

You then replied to me and said:
The one God is the almighty power. Even if He doesn't exist, He exist in the mind of people, so He exists as a concept.

While I (and most others here) hold no belief in either the xtian or muslim god, both of these god's do exist as a human "concept"; or 'construct' if you will.
These gods (in my opinion), have no power of their own to do good or bad, but rather those who believe such gods are of reality, will use that god delusion towards their own ends.

If the point of Schism is to show that both these major religions can easily be used to promote violence, then obviously I would have to agree with that premise.

However, it seems quite clear to me that those who worship the muslim god, are far less likely to find the philosophy of "live and let live" as being acceptable to their inherent tenets.
Is it not true that a basic muslim creed, is that, everyone must convert or be put to death?

While one can find some xtians who might also feel that way, there is no basic decree from jesus to convert folks or 'cut their heads off'.
Instead, this jesus character allows us to live out our human lives without accepting him into our hearts, and then after we die, he fries our sorry asses in his custom built hell.

I also find that the muslim dogma to be far more oppressive to society (especially women), and it certainly has no interest in science and progress, unless such science and progress is used to further promote it's own survival.
It will see no problem in sending future terrorist to our schools, in order to devise a better killing machine, but at the same time, it keeps most of it's followers within the "dark ages" of knowledge.

These two major religions always put their god first and foremost, and anything else concerning the human equation is either secondary, or outright forbidden to address.
Nothing would please me more, than to see both these religions (and all others like them), meet their quick demise.

They do nothing but promote worship and adherence to gods; gods that only exist within the weak minded, who lack the courage to question these gods and their VERY questionable reality.


ATF (Who thinks all this religious mutual finger-pointing, is missing the bigger point altogether)

John of Indiana said...

I'm not feeling very verbose tonight, so I'll just say that both the Jeezhus and Mohamed cults, and also now the Moses cult, have much blood on their hands.
I had thought that someday a new Enlightenment would come into the world, but I'm afraid that as people understand Technology less, they lean on superstition more.
And the Wahabi Muslim hate everything Western, yet they seem to just LOVE our weapons technology...

Schism and Fitna are products of the violent insanities they describe. I also not that nobody here is saying that Schism has it all wrong, either...

Justin said...

I love when religions argue about whose imaginary friend is better. all religions have the propensity to cause violence, and many have. A religion is like a gang....irrational but hard to see its faults unless you are looking from the outside in.

Looi313 said...

Atheisttoothfairy, my movie shows that it's easy to let people think a religion is based on violence. This problem is what happens with islam. In the media of the West they show all the bad things. Your ideas are based on this information.

For example, surat Baqara of the H. Qur'an 256 says: Let there be no compulsion in religion. It's said many times that you can't convert people to islam. People have to choose with a free will.

On the other hand it is allowed to defend yourself. Some muslims think they are under attack by the West, so they strike back. It's just a small, small, small minority, but very interesting for the media.

There is no muslim god or christian god, there is only one God. He is worshipped on different ways by jews, christians, muslims and maybe more. When you don't believe in Him... I don't have the power to let the blind people see. When you respect others I don't see any problem why I would have to convert you.

Looi313 said...
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The AntiChristian said...
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The AntiChristian said...

Looi313,
Thank you for your movie. There needed to be such a response to Fitna, which I also thought was a good reminder.

This insane war between the Christians and the Muslims only underscores the fact that religion is the bane of mankind. Both Christianity and Islam are based on medieval superstitions, formed when people didn't know much about the world.

As a Christian, I used to pray everyday - not just five times a day, but it was my goal to be in constant prayer, whether at school or at work always taliking to God. Now that I'm an atheist, I realize that religion was delusional and that prayer only reinforced that delusion.

There is no god. There never was and never will be. Belief in God can only bring pain and suffering to the world.

Looi313 said...

The anticristian, I think when people don't try to convert you or force you to believe something, who cares?!

I understand your opinion about religion, but most people use it for internal peace. That's good. Let them.

There is something some people forget. In islam it's said that when people attack you, you are allowed to defend yourself. The negative attitude in the media and the occupation of some Arab countries, is for some muslims a reason to strike back.

This is a very small group. Very small.

In general: 1. stop thinking that islam make people violent, it has to be seen as defending.
2. Most muslims even don't think that way and live in peace with people who also live in peace.

A believe in God doesn't mean people are violent. People can be.

Bill said...

I don't have the power to let the blind people see.

Wow, and I don't have the power to make delusional people see their delusion.

Religion breeds arrogance!

Bill said...

In islam it's said that when people attack you, you are allowed to defend yourself.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. How is it that anyone should have the right to attack another? Doesn't religion teach that faith in God or Allah is the ablility to believe that God/Allah will protect and, or vindicate you?

How is it that religious people need to pick up a sword to defend themselves or their families?

Isn't your faith strong enought to allow you to either let God/Allah defend you, or take you home and be rewarded as a martyr?

As long as one believes that a god leads them, then the rest of us are less of a person in their eyes. Religion breeds elitest thinking, "I have the truth and you don't". I understand life and you don't. I hear it all the time.

I wish their was objective proof that a god being of infinite love exisited. I wish that we all went to live in some form of heaven when we die; however fantasies are like that. Until people use objective verifiable facts and evidence to substantiate their beliefs I can not believe just because someone wants me too, or feels god/allah exists.

Bill said...

I think when people don't try to convert you or force you to believe something, who cares?!

I care. Why, because people like you make laws that don't allow women to drive, live alone or wear certain types of clothing. People like you tell people like me what is moral and what isn't. People like you feel you are right because you believe a book written thousands of years ago by a tribal mindset.

People like you tell people like me that you can see the truth but I can not. So you write your version of the truth and I have to accept it because you and your god are able to communicate and people like me are not allowed to question it.

Come on.....think about it. Truth is not handed down from a god or his/her book. It is discovered with facts, trial and error and observation in the physical world.

Bill said...

A believe in God doesn't mean people are violent. People can be.

This is a true statement; however I don't believe it is religion that always changes a person. Some people are just peaceful and some are just violent.

There are many reasons people do what they do. Much of it, in my opinion, has to do with a lack of self-awareness regarding their internal motivations.

Many people react rather than think. Many people feel their way through life rather than think.

Religion appeals to the emotional because it is not objective.

.:webmaster:. said...

God doesn't kill people! People kill people!

God keeps people alive forever so they can be in horrific misery for all eternity in either Islamic or Christian hell.

Now THAT is amazing grace.

Looi313 said...

Bill, remember, not believing in God is also a religion and you try me to convince.

You said you care that people believe. You care because these people make rules. You are right, but my statement is that when religious people leave you alone, then it's okay. When they start to make laws which is discriminating, I totally agree with you.

Jesus (pbuh) said to turn your other cheek. Don't you think you have to read it as a sort of symbol. It would be selfdestruction. Why are the United States in Afganistan? In Iraq? Did they try to help in Vietnam? Did they help out in WW II and WW I?

My personal opinion is that Jesus (pbuh) was talking about 1 human being. As a government you have to defend your country.

In my opinion that's also what islam says. People who attacked the Twin Towers did wrong in my opinion, as wrong as the American government attacking countries where they shouldn't be.

Democraty is also a system where people believe in. It's not perfect and not suitable in all countries; look at N-Korea, Cuba, Russia, Bhutan. You can't force people to believe in democraty or believe in that God is not existing.

Let's stop to convince people of the badness of the others. Your truth is not my truth.

Bill said...

To Looi313,

Thanks for responding to my comments.

Not believing in the supernatural or a supernatural being is not a religion. I don't believe in anything outside of proof or evidence. I do value beliefs that are peaceful and helpful.

I agree with you too about discrimination. Unfortunately too many people use a book to discriminate. The interpretite according to their internal beliefs. Most of us already have some system of belief that we use to evaluate other people, life, beliefs, etc. We have this long before we get religion. Sometimes those beliefs are underdeveloped and weak until we educate ourselves either with religion or secular education. Even then, the foundation of our beliefs are usually based on the interpretation of events in our life. On the other hand, some religious teachers take their version of the truth and ram it down young underdeveloped minds and it perpetuates the hate and discrimination they have. Religion takes root quickly in young minds and underdeveloped minds. I was one of those once. So I don’t speak from a point of arrogance.

Religion does turn some people toward peace and acceptance, but it also turns people away from it too. In the Bible, God’s apostle Paul condemns homosexuals for no reason other than because God says it is wrong. There is no evidence to support homosexuality as morally wrong. It does not hurt people.

I think your view of turning the other cheek lends me to believe that you are a man of peace and not war. I would also gather that you tend to interpret the Koran with a "grain of salt" so to speak. You probably do not take all of it as literal just as some Christians don't take the Bible literally. Why do I say this? Because if you were to take what Jesus said as literal without exception then you have to believe that He meant to turn the other cheek literally. He meant that his followers should be a witness of peace even at the expense of their own lives or family. Did He not say, You must hate your father and mother if you want to follow me”?

If we take the Holy Books, Koran and Bible, at their face value then we have problems. That is what you video shows. That is what the other one does too. Truth can not be just yours and mine. The very nature of truth is that it is unalterable and consistent. It is not based on individual view points. If it is then we are not talking about truth. We are talking about our internal view of the world and everything that encompasses.

In regard to the attackers of the twin towers, they would use the same arguments against you that you are using against me. They would say you do not really believe and that you do not have the truth. How do we know what truth is in religion when everyone has their own idea of religious truth??? No religion is exempt!

I agree with you that our country should not have attacked Iraq. I felt for the Iraq people under Saddam but I don’t believe our country should be the police of the world. Who are we to determine what is morally right for another country? How many innocent people have died because of our governments actions to liberate Iraq. How many more continue to die? How many soldiers would gladly sacrifice their lives if they didn’t believe in a god or an after life. How many world leaders would throw people at wars if they didn’t think they would live on in paradise? How many people would be terrorists?

Religion and ideology are bed fellows and they tend to do as much harm as good.

I have to go right now, but I do enjoy our conversation.

Bill

boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...
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boomSLANG said...

Looi313...You can't force people to believe in democraty or believe in that God is not existing.[Emphasis added]

Correction: You can't force people to believe that their "God" is non-existent. True. Remember, however, that the "people" to whom you refer are people who are already convinced that the other guy's "god" doesn't exist; they don't need to be "forced". These people are adherents of their own respective brands of "Theism", and they ALL claim exclusiveness on the generic noun, "god"...i.e.. "God", when exclusive.

So, ironically, Theists are the ones attempting to use "force" on people; on other Theists, as well as non-Theists. The "force" is implicit, and sometimes explicit---through indoctrination, through threats for non-compliance, and through extremism. The world's three major monotheistic religions are ALL guilty to a degree. The fact that most people can remain religious and peaceful, doesn't excuse those who cannot.

Good day.

Looi313 said...

Bill, I think we almost agree with everything ;)

The only difference between you and me is that I believe He exists and you don't.

I could warn you for all the bad things that can happen after your death, but you will not believe me. I'm not going to bother you with that information. ;)

The most important thing is to respect each other. When God is existing ánd mercyful, you will make it with His will in the Afterlife. :)

boomSLANG said...

looi313...I could warn you for all the bad things that can happen after your death, but you will not believe me. I'm not going to bother you with that information. ;)

Yes, you "could" warn us, but let me warn you---until/unless you have some objective evidence for the existence of a post-mortem "life", your "warnings" are completely impotent. Of course, even if you could provide such evidence, you're still in no better of a position than anyone else, for you may believe in the wrong "God", and thus, suffer it's eternal wrath for non-compliance.

Looi313...The most important thing is to respect each other

Yes. Okay, feel free to explain how you call going around and threatening other human beings with your religious warnings, "respect". 'Listening.

Astreja said...

looi313: "I could warn you for all the bad things that can happen after your death, but you will not believe me. I'm not going to bother you with that information. ;)"

Looi, I hate to break this to you... But you just did. Raising the topic of punishment after death is merely a less honest version of threatening us. It's akin to an abuser insulting a loved one and then saying "I was just joking."

What you posted was not a joke. It was emotional abuse.

I see no respect on your part, just someone who is trying to demean our lack of belief.

May you one day be in a position to truly see things from our point of view.

Looi313 said...

Astreja, you read what you want to read.

I believe there is a afterlife. When God is mercyful to the people who lived in peace, but didn't believe in Him, He will let you to come in. You don't believe the a thing of the Afterlife. I can write whole stories about the Afterlife or the good sides of religion, but it doesn't matter. You don't believe it and I do. How can somebody be emotional abused when you don't believe in it?

You write at the end 'May you one day be in a position to truly see things from our point of view.' That's not respectful. You think your way of thinking is better then mine. When you like to have a discussion with someone, you have to be convinced both of you are equal.

I don't think my way of thinking is better then yours. I hope you stick to your opinion and I hope I stick to mine.

The only thing we can do, is listen to each other and respect it as long as the respect is from both sides.

boomSLANG said...

Looi313...Astreja, you read what you want to read.

I won't speak for anyone, but I'll wager that she reads your words at face-value. If your words mean something other than their face-value, then it's up to you to make that clear. Since a minimum of two peole have infered your meaning as a thinly-veiled threat of bodily harm..e.g.."hell" for non-compliance to your chosen religion, then there's a good chance that that is precisely how you meant it. In discussions like these, it's best not to equivocate.

Looi313...I believe there is a afterlife.

Fantastic; good for you. Mind you, people believe all sorts of things. The obvious problem with this, is that "belief" and reality are not mutually inclusive. There is not one scrap of objective evidence that human consciousness survives death of the physical brain. None; zip; nadda.

Looi313...When God is mercyful to the people who lived in peace, but didn't believe in Him, He will let you to come in.

Existential fallacy. Here's another, to illustrate the fallacy of the argument:

"When Allah is merciful to the people who lived in peace, but didn't believe in Him, He will let you come in".

I'll bet that the previous statement means absolutely nothing to you. Am I correct? If correct, then good, because then you have an idea of what your statement means to us: Nothing. You first have to establish the existence of said subject, before talking about all the things that said subject can do, or not do. 'Get it?

Looi313...I can write whole stories about the Afterlife or the good sides of religion, but it doesn't matter.

True; finally we agree on something. Though, I have to wonder why it is that you continue to post. So...why?

Looi313...How can somebody be emotional abused when you don't believe in it?

Listen, I'm going to track you down, dowse you with gasoline, and set you ablaze if you don't deconvert from Christianity.

Now, do you believe such a threat? Of course you don't. However, it's not very nice of me to say such a thing, and for me to repeat this statement over and over again, would certainly constitute "abuse". Would you concede that it is also disrespectful? Be honest.

Looi313...You write at the end 'May you one day be in a position to truly see things from our point of view.' That's not respectful.

Let's see....were you threatened, in any way, shape, or form? No, you were not. Such a statement is offered unconditionally. Try as you might, you will not level the playing field between Theism and non-Theism---not now; not ever.

Looi313...When you like to have a discussion with someone, you have to be convinced both of you are equal.

Proponents of Secular Humanism regard humans as humans, regardless of their beliefs. Conversely, it is you, the Theist, who classifies people by their belief/non-belief...i.e.."saved", and "unsaved", respectively.

Religion's benefits are dwarfed by the division, elitism, and prejudice that it causes.

Looi313...I don't think my way of thinking is better then yours.

Again, why are you here? Regardless, you don't have to "think" your "way" is better---your religious doctrine states, unequivocately, that your "way of thinking" is better. Your doctrine does the "thinking" for you.

Looi313...I hope you stick to your opinion and I hope I stick to mine.

Interesting. Is this an admission that your belief is merely an opinion? If so, good---that's progress.

Looi313...The only thing we can do, is listen to each other and respect it as long as the respect is from both sides.

I have to tell you, in light of your previous posts, I see the above statement lip-service.

Astreja said...

Looi313: "Astreja, you read what you want to read."

Well, of course I do! I also read things that I do not particularly want to read, such as essays by people of different political views, and the "holy" books of religions that I consider odious and destructive. Yes, I have read some of Al Qur'an, and much of the Bible as well.

"I believe there is a afterlife."

I do not. I think that, after My brain loses its functionality, "I" will be gone forever. The molecules that comprise My body will persist, however, and will gradually diffuse and become parts of other entities. This is, in My opinion, a far more realistic and scientifically verifiable version of "eternal life."

"You don't believe a thing of the Afterlife... How can somebody be emotional abused when you don't believe in it?"

Looi, the name of this site is Ex-Christian.net. Most of us came from Christian backgrounds. Many of us had parents and Sunday School teachers and preachers who threatened us with Hell if we didn't get "saved", didn't pretend to believe, or otherwise didn't conform to their expectations.

And, in those younger days, many of us believed those stories and lay awake in our beds at night, shaking and crying.

Accordingly, when you -- Or anyone else -- comes in here and warns us about their invisible friend and its eternal barbecue pit, it often causes flashbacks to those ugly and painful times.

Whenever someone threatens the Ex-C crowd with eternal punishment, My thoughts also go to the millions of young children who currently live in terror because of their parents' beliefs. At such times I feel an extremely physical reaction that manifests as rage. Actual fist-clenching, heart-pounding rage.

I deal with these thoughts by taking the time to sit down and write a critique of whatever has been posted. Most of the time I take the time to edit out My nastier thoughts, but in the case of an egregiously self-righteous jerk it's even more therapeutic to verbally beat the living excrement out of them in public. I owe no respect whatsoever to someone who does not respect Me.

"You write at the end 'May you one day be in a position to truly see things from our point of view.' That's not respectful."

I wish you the capability to clearly see both sides of an issue, and you call that disrespectful? I, uh, respectfully disagree.

Looi313 said...

Astreja, I'm an ex-christian too. For me it is impossible to believe there is no God, but you are free to believe what you like.

Please let me, as a fellow ex-christian, believe what I like to believe.

Looi313 said...

Boomslang, isn't it good to talk to other people? If you only talk to the people who thing the same way as you, you will never develop.

Atheistoothfairy thought this movie was made by Al-Saeed and asked him something. Because I'm the maker I answered the question.

That's why I'm here.

Astreja said...

Looi313: "Astreja, I'm an ex-christian too. For me it is impossible to believe there is no God, but you are free to believe what you like... Please let me, as a fellow ex-christian, believe what I like to believe."

I'll try to say this as gently as possible.

It isn't what you believe that upsets us, Looi. I have no intention whatsoever of invading your personal space to force My beliefs upon you.

What does upset us is when people come onto our site and present their beliefs as "The Truth", offering as evidence their personal experiences or the words of books that we now consider to be fiction.

And it doesn't matter who the person is, what they believe, or which book they're using to reinforce their faith... It just doesn't work for us any more. We've become inured to subjective testimonies and scriptures, and no longer see them as useful or true.

It isn't quite as bad when people say "I believe that ______ is true", but that particular information isn't all that helpful to us, either. We may have believed exactly the same thing at one point in our lives, but we can't go back and re-believe it.

I do appreciate you taking the time to carry on this dialogue with us, because if there's the slightest chance of us understanding each other it'll be dialogue that makes it possible.

boomSLANG said...

Looi313,

Yeah, sure, it's wonderful to talk to other people. But let's face it, you are here to preach Theism, namely, your own, personal "brand" of Theism. During the course of this discussion, you said some things that I personally felt needed to be addressed. Some of which, are that non-belief is a "religion"[paraphrased]; people who don't believe in "God" are "blind"[also paraphrased], and that some "bad things" await us non-believers when we expire[again, paraphrased] The latter, of course, being a threat of bodily harm.

Well, we don't accept threats here, okay? Whether we believe your threats, or not, is not the issue, as illustrated in my previous analogy about tracking you down and setting you ablaze. Review it if you must.

As far as developing---let me first point out that you've determined, a priori, that "God" exists, hence, why you say that it is "impossible" for you to disbelieve in "God". This is remarkable, because in my view, one cannot evolve, or "develop", mentally, when they adhere to convictions that are based on religious dogma.

In other words, it's pointless for you to promote having dialogue with people, if you admit that it is literally "impossible" for you to ever see our point of view(the non-believer's point of view). And before you "go there", I was Christian for 2/3rds of my life.

'Questions?

Bill said...

Looi313,

You are entitled to believe in supernatural things. I do not wish to live your life for you.

I didn't take you mention of hell as a threat. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you are just concerned with my future as a good Muslim should be.

I was once like that. I also feared for people who didn't know God. Things changed, I changed. I no longer have any extra-natural or supernatural beliefs.

It is a strange place to be after years of Bible College and Seminary. It is a strange place to be after thinking that life only had meaning with God. I am content and at peace.

I wish you well in your journey. I also wish you peace and joy my earthly brother.

Bill

Looi313 said...

Astreja, you said you don't like it when people come on your blog. I was asked by atheisttoothfairy to answer a question. Pull the other one says mister al-Saeed didn't get the point (he didn't know by that time I made the movie), Chuckyjesus is responding etc. People are talking to me and ask questions or make statements. Do you think it is polite stop answering. I think that when people don't like me in their blog, they ignore me.

You and I choose both not to be a christian anymore. I'm also an ex-christian, so I assume it's also a little bit my blog?

Boomslang, I never try to convince people to believe anything. I don't preach theism in this blog. Where did I tell you to believe in God? The only thing I ask for is some respect for the fact I believe in God. I respect you by not believing, do you respect me?

You're right about the fact that I compare it with 'you can't make blind people see'. It's something else then ignore them. I'm not making friends or try to convert you, it's just asking for some respect. I respect that you think religion is a fairytale and maybe you're right. Do you respect me that for me religion is to help me on the right path and to God and maybe... maybe I'm right? Both of us can proove really easy God (not) exists. So I even didn't try to convince you.

Bill, I don't think that if you don't believe in God you are bad or whatever. I believe in a mercyful God. Even when people don't like me, I'm kind to them. Maybe God is the same.

The movie I made is because I like to say: please people, stop searching enemies. We need to solve the real problems of this world. Religion is not the main issue.

Astreja said...

Looi313: " Astreja, you said you don't like it when people come on your blog."

No, what I said was this:

"What does upset us is when people come onto our site and present their beliefs as 'The Truth'."

Your presence here on the blog is not the problem. There were a few statements which we found offensive because of the way they were phrased. Two examples:

"...not believing in God is also a religion..."

and

"There is no muslim god or christian god, there is only one God."

Regarding the first statement, there's a joke: "If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Regarding the second statement, the existence of gods remains unproven and it's premature to use an absolute affirmative statement such as "There is..." Oh, and the phrase "only one god" is a tad annoying to agnostic polytheists such as Myself. ;-)

But I do agree with you regarding the problems humanity is facing. There are critical issues that need to be solved, and solved very soon.

Unfortunately, religion must continue to be discussed because some manifestations of religion are having a negative impact on the search for solutions.

How does one effectively deal with extreme, violent perspectives such as "The end of the world is coming, hallelujah!" and "Kill all the non-believers in the name of ______"?

Dave8 said...

Looi313: "For example, surat Baqara of the H. Qur'an 256 says: Let there be no compulsion in religion. It's said many times that you can't convert people to islam. People have to choose with a free will."

That's what "you" say, but in the Quran, it says differently. Allah, is solely responsible for "increasing" the very blindness you suggest non-believers possess.

The Cow:
2:10: "In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie."

The Children of Israel:
17:8: "It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers."

17:10: "And that those who believe not in the Hereafter, for them We have prepared a painful doom."

Looi313, whether one reads one Holy Book or another, there is a "prescription" of how to "treat" non-believers, or those who don't believe in the one true God per the religious text.

Your argument, per your article, is that anything can be made to appear intolerant and/or violent.

The obvious conflict here, is that the literary "message" within the Holy Scriptures, in both the Hebrew Bible and Quran, is of an "offensive" nature - to those who do not accept the "Religion" that the "Holy Scripture" establishes.

Your statement that "religion" is not the problem is interesting in regard to how you present a holistic or pluralistic view of a God concept.

As I see your statements, you call for unity of purpose, respect, and tolerance, but religion, per its Holy Message, calls for "separatism"; those who will be rewarded and those who will not, if they hearken to the true God.

So, if you assert that "separatism", is of utmost concern that hinders harmony among humanity; then, of course, you should recognize that religion is not a "solution" that brings about such "harmony".

On a side note, if there is only "One God", known by many names... and... you do not know that "One God's" name, then what is the "object" of your devotion? If you can't envision that "One Object", then, can you really call yourself a disciple, believer, follower or "religious"?

People use religious texts, and their religion to "focus" their thoughts and ideas on their concept of God... if you assert that God can not be truly known (because one becomes of equal knowledge as a God themselves), then it would seem that "religion" established by religious texts, has no real purpose, "but" to create separatism.

I think most would agree that separatism creates an environment where violence and cruelty can flourish.

In order to prevent "separatism", one must consider the environmental "factors" that foster such activities.

This should be easy for you, if religion has no merit in terms of focusing on any one particular God for devotional service, yet it promotes separatism inexhaustibly - then religion should be a concept that is denounced without prejudice.

The only way to gain; tolerance, respect, equality, etc., is to fight separatism, and all promoting factors - if one refuses to acknowledge religion as a key component of separatism within global affairs, then they lack sincerity of purpose.

"Everything" has a potential to be a "good" thing, if placed in the proper context, just as "everything" has a potential to be a "bad" thing, if placed in the proper context.

Looi313, in the "context" of "separatism"... where does "religion" fall, as a category of interest?

Regards,
Dahood

Looi313 said...

Dave8&Astreja,

Religion is something between you and God. The verses Dave8 shows us this.

I think not-believing is also a religion, just like democracy. You believe in it and think it's the right way. All concepts influenting your life a religion for me. That's why I think not-believing is also a religion. Especially when you start making your own groups and blogs.

.:webmaster:. said...

All clubs are religions. All groupings of human beings are religions.

Everything is religion.

Here's religion: Is Islam a religion of peace? | Your blasphemous mouths will be stopped!

boomSLANG said...

Looi313....I'm also an ex-christian, so I assume it's also a little bit my blog?

Public blog; privately owned website, complete with disclaimer. BTW, it might serve you well to read the disclaimer, thoroughly.

Looi313...Boomslang, I never try to convince people to believe anything. I don't preach theism in this blog.

And previously...

Looi313..."When God is mercyful to the people who lived in peace, but didn't believe in Him, He will let you to come in."

Looi313, if you don't care for the word "preaching", then fine...but you ARE promoting Theism---bottom line.

Looi313...Where did I tell you to believe in God?

You are being equivocal. No, you haven't directly told anyone, "believe in God!"... however, it's implicit in your words, especially in statements like this:

Looi313..."I could warn you for all the bad things that can happen after your death, but you will not believe me. I'm not going to bother you with that information."

As someone has already told you, this statement is a "warning", despite that you say that you will "not" warn us.

Repeat: We don't take kindly to threats, here. The fact that we don't believe in "hell", "heaven", or an "afterlife", etc., is not relevant to the fact that said statement is, in fact, an explicit threat.

Looi313...The only thing I ask for is some respect for the fact I believe in God.

I support your right to believe in whatever the hell you want to believe in. On the other hand, since the existence of a "god" is not evident - and we can make this assessment simply due to the fact that there's no unity among Theists, whatsoever, as to which gods exist, and which one are figments of people's imaginations - then you, like most Theists, are promoting your personal opinion as Universal Truth. Well, guess what?...I don't have to respect people who promote their opinions as "Truth". Although, I will reconsider my position when/if Theists show me, with objective evidence, that a "God" exists, and they all agree on which one.'Fair enough?

Looi...You're right about the fact that I compare it with 'you can't make blind people see'. It's something else then ignore them. I'm not making friends or try to convert you, it's just asking for some respect.

You are evidently really hung-up on "respect", and frankly, I see it as a diversion. Notwithstanding, have you not freely said everything you want to say on this public blog? Has anyone told you that you can't believe in whatever stories you want to believe in?.. regardless of how fantasic they are?

Looi313...I respect that you think religion is a fairytale and maybe you're right.

Sir, "religion" is no fairy tale; it is very real. The issue is, what is "religion" founded on. Most, if not all religions, are founded on revealed "Truth". That said, we simply see the odds of one religion out of THOUSANDS having it "right", and all others having it wrong, as not as good as the odds of them ALL having it wrong.

Looi313...Do you respect me that for me religion is to help me on the right path and to God and maybe... maybe I'm right?

Again, you further harp on "respect". I've told you to what extent I respect you, as a person, above. It's there for your review. I'll add that believing in "God" doesn't make you a bad person.

As far as you finding the "right path", by all means, do what works for you, yes.....however, don't come here promoting your "path" to truth as Universal Truth. Is it clear now? Gosh, I really hope so.

Looi313...All concepts influenting your life a religion for me. That's why I think not-believing is also a religion. Especially when you start making your own groups and blogs.

Try looking at it from this perspective: If people weren't insisting "gods" exist, blogs like these wouldn't exist.

Non-belief is not a "religion", at least, not in a religious context.

.:webmaster:. said...

Here's a few very nice posts that came in this week from another message-of-hope Islam-o-peacemaker: CLICK HERE.

Islam is every bit as hideous as Christianity. Both make human beings into blathering idiots. Both are a bane on humanity.

Tim said...

Pot... kettle... yaaaawn.

Eff the Koran and all religious idiots.

I wish I could wake all these idiots up with a magic wand but I can't.


Tim