Jesus Camp
This is a two minute trailer for a new documentary that paints a vivid image of the evangelical subculture in middle America. From a mother home-schooling her son on the lunacy of evolution to kids at camp praying fervently for a cardboard cutout of George W Bush, the agressive beliefs, mixed with politics, is scary.
The children are drilled on the evils of homosexuality, told that prayer in school is necessary for effective teaching, and made to believe that America is responsible for the deaths of fifty million innocent children since 1973. The childrens' families even travel to Washington to protest in front of the Supreme Court building.
Also see this clip at Variety.Com.
This film is scheduled for release on September 15, 2006. Click here for showtimes and locations.
More clips and information available at http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Comments
of these people. Come to think of
it, so would the leaders of the
Taliban."
Blind, unthinking fanaticism is the
hallmark of fundamentalist religions, and I am so glad this
website exists to show there are
some people who have come to their
senses, and hopefully will play
a part in alerting this country to
people like those in this movie who
believe American was meant to be
a theocracy. (And woe to those that
don't choose to believe as they
do.)
Whatever religion is the case, it goes to show you that mixing religion, fanaticism, and nationalism results in the most atrocious mix.
I am shocked at this video. All I can say is that as a European (I live in the UK) I am glad that I do not live in the US.
The kind of fanaticism found in America just doesn't exist over here in the UK. It couldn't exist - for that I am grateful, although we do have the ocassional odd-ball sect, they don't usually last long.
I fear for America and because of that for our world. I hope that come the next US presidential election the Democrats get into power and thus losen the grip of the fundamentalist right wing. If it doesn't perhaps in a decade or two there could be a civil war between the right wing and those who stand for freedom and separation of state and church.
It seems to me (and I hope that I am wrong) that what is going on in America right now has all the makings of another religious war, like what is going on in the Middle-East right now with the Islamic religion. Over dramatic? I hope so!
Lee
PS: For real laugh, check out the Variety.com version.
What we are seeing here is the training of the next generation of fundamentalist evangelicals. These children might bring down our country in the next century. These children are going to be heckling me when i'm an old man.
These children are truly being
brainwashed.
It sickens me so much.
This movie truly should be titled "Hitler would be proud." This isn't training. This is brainwashing. This is closing minds, stopping personal growth, and building the stones of funamentalist diehards.
THIS, not violence in video games is what is corrupting this country. Bringing people into an "Us and them." camp, labelling people into "saved and unsaved". It's training young minds to seperate, divide, and see differences then to see what we have in common, to unite people for a greater cause.
And that woman...wasn't it Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) who said, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"
And as Obi-wan so rightly said, "Only a Sith deals in absoloutes"
What the hell is this country coming too?
I dont understand why so many Christians think it's their duty as good Christians to try to pursuade (impose?) their veiws of what's right and what's wrong, their place to pass judgement on others....but then when they see something like this video of obviously extreme, dangerous fundamentalism, they say "hey that's got nothing to do with me" and leave it at that. As if whether or not I want to listen to Howard Stern does.....
i was trying to find a clip from jesus camp that was on you tube a while ago, it showed that big momma camp leader preaching about the EVILS of harry potter to the poor young kids! and some poor girl who really likes to dance but is told that's something like evils of the flesh(?)
Christians can't even agree amongst THEMSELVES what's right or wrong. They shoot themselves in the foot by saying that Christianity is the "one Truth", then they blast a hole in the other foot by saying that THEIR interpretation/denomination/sect is THEE "correct" one, when there's THOUSANDS of sub-groups. No wonder they spend so much time on their knees.
http://www.variety.com/graphics/video/Jesus_Camp_Clip_300.wmv
This woman is unbelievable. There is something almost evil about her - this is nothing short of child abuse.
Wake up America. Please.....
That disgust me. I agree, it's child abuse.
And brings back memories of my own "brainwashing sessions"
it is very radical.....but these people aren't trying to take over the world, or harm anyone....only keep unbelievers out of hell, is that so bad?... but you can twist it up if you like...
9/04/2006 3:46 PM
They ARE harming someone. Those innocent children are being brainwashed to believe a lie. The pain that these children will endure in their lifetime cannot even be measured.
This is sick and disgusting.
That woman, though; whew! But then, again I feel exactly the same way about the 'Left Behind' series of books. So, maybe it evens out.
Oh, wait! I forgot, it's: Those that love Jesus/those than don't love Jesus; saved/damned, white/black, good/evil us/them, divine/profane, in/out, raptured/left behind, etcetera, ad infinitum blah, blah blah.
Can't believe sometimes that I used to be one of them. Here's to more than one choice and all the shades of grey!
I wonder how much of the child rearing instructions of the holy book of hatred get used in these camps - you know:
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell
Note in the last verse there the RIDICULOUS notion that salvation of the child is predicated on abuse.
Mind you, these kids probably come from "godly (how I DETEST that word) parents homes, where the "rod" will be used frequently.
Wonder what they suggest doing to kids who ARENT one of their elite "saved" band: - give them yellow stars? pink triangles?
Do they want to bring back the days of putting people to death for such simple things?
I thought modern christians try to distance themselves from OT extremism, but these kids are being encouraged the opposite way.
unfortunatly they are....
"muttmutt1978 said...
jaybird dont try to play innocent, i know the history of christianity, and i whouldnt be surprized if christians were actually involved in the WTC, i know it sounds crazy but the american government is just as corrupt as any preacher. stop trying to play innocent, it doesnt work here."
What would be the purpose of this?
what are Christians trying to take over....i believe you are speaking of the radical muslims...there is a difference....
"They ARE harming someone. Those innocent children are being brainwashed to believe a lie. The pain that these children will endure in their lifetime cannot even be measured"
Oh really...praying to God and believing in eternal life and purpose is enduring a lifetime of pain?....i think your the one in pain here....
"Oh, wait! I forgot, it's: Those that love Jesus/those than don't love Jesus; saved/damned, white/black, good/evil us/them, divine/profane, in/out, raptured/left behind, etcetera, ad infinitum blah, blah blah.
Can't believe sometimes that I used to be one of them. Here's to more than one choice and all the shades of grey!"
there is absolute truth, the world today believes that everything is relative and that all points of view are equally valid and that all truth is relative to the individual. This means that all moral positions, all religious systems, all art forms, all political movements, etc., are truths that are relative to the individual.
I love absolute truth. It's so absolute.
Oh, and we know all of these things because, well because, umm, because Jaybird says so.
Case closed.
Seriously, move along kid. You're not a Jaybird, you're a parrot, a brainwashed parrot. Go back to your lonely blog.
JB: "unfortunatly they are...."
There is zero evidence that this yet-to-be-defined "thing" called a "soul" survives death. None. Zero brain activity = zero thought = zero consciousness = zero feeling = zero "self" = zero life.....NOTHING. So nope, no one is going anywhere..."hell", "heaven", or otherwise.
JB: "i believe you are speaking of the radical muslims...there is a difference...."
There is a difference between moderates and total extremists, yes; there is not a difference in doctrines. Both the "Holy" Q'ran AND the "Holy" bible condone the killing of unbelievers. I'll provide the exact respective verses if you'd like.
JB: "there is absolute truth.."
Yes, there sure is---it's called "C-H-A-N-G-E". Religious convictions of ANY kind, are not subject to change, which is why there are groups of people who STILL believe the earth is flat, even in light of the evidence to the contrary. They, in all their stubborn zeal, will actually go to their graves believing that the earth is a giant "pancake", and that they'll exist floating around in the clouds for all of eternity singing songs to a ghost. O~o~o~o~ooooo. lol
JB: "This means that all moral positions, all religious systems, all art forms, all political movements, etc., are truths that are relative to the individual."
Excuse me, but your "Holy Bible" IS completely "relative to individual", hence, the gazillions of denominations all claiming the "One Truth". Yoo hoo???...cock-a-doodle-doo! Wake up!
" Yes, please, America, elect a Democrat to the White House, because only gay marriage, more abortions, more radio talk show hosts like Howard Stern, pandering to Muslims, and more Christian-bashing by the tolerance crowd is all that can save you!"
Lorena responds:
So, John, there is no half-way for you huh? We must be either fundmentalist religious, gay haters, and abortion judgementalists. The option is to be like Howard Stern.
Now, that's what I call close-mindedness. Let me shed some light on your ignorance. Go to a graduate school at any famous university, and most people will be atheists. These intellectuals have no time to go around acting out their childhood fantasies in a Howard-Stern fashion.
Jesus can overcome all trials and tribulations, just like superman!
Jesus can leap over huge buildings at a single bound, just like superman!
Jesus has a nemesis, it's satan and evil, just like superman over comes evil and unjustice.
Jesus the new superhero for the menatlly derainged in the 21st century!
Save us Jesus!!!! Come save us!!!! We all need to be saved from your nemesis SATAN!!!!
Jesus Jesus were are you Jebus????
Come to us Jebus and save us please???? We desparetly need salvation quick!!!!!
Please come save our souls, please!!!!
Our filthy rotten stinking souls need to be saved from Hell, please come save us, Please!!!!
No No....jaybird didn't make it up...God created it in the Bible in the beginning...but it's your choice to reject it....and eternity is a long time to be wrong....think about that..
"There is a difference between moderates and total extremists, yes; there is not a difference in doctrines. Both the "Holy" Q'ran AND the "Holy" bible condone the killing of unbelievers. I'll provide the exact respective verses if you'd like."
Ok wrong again, the Bible does not condone the killing of unbelievers. i don't want unbelievers to die, i really don't...so i try to spread the Word...But dont get the Bible mixed up with the Q'ran.
"Excuse me, but your "Holy Bible" IS completely "relative to individual", hence, the gazillions of denominations all claiming the "One Truth". Yoo hoo???...cock-a-doodle-doo! Wake up!"
The Bible is not completely relative to the individual, the are specific things you must do to accept Christ as your Savior...does that sound like relative?...
jb: "there is absolute truth.."
"Yes, there sure is---it's called "C-H-A-N-G-E". Religious convictions of ANY kind, are not subject to change"
Thats because God does not change(mal 3:6)
BELIEVE IN JESUS OR BURN IN HELL!!!!
REJECT BOTH, LIVE IN REALITY
"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in." Deuteronomy 13:5
A five point Calvinist will tell you it's predetermined who get's "saved" and who doesn't. In other words, it doesn't matter how blistered Jaybird's lips get from kissin' god's a$$.....he just might get incinerated by his "loving" Jebus. So who's got the right interpretation? Or is NOT "RELATIVE" to the denominational belief? Check mate..you LOSE.
You state and declare that what you believe is absolute truth. How far, I wonder, would you go in expressing that if you had executive power? Would you outlaw homosexuality under pain of death? Would you make slavery legal again? Would you make it illegal to NOT be a Christian?
Because I know at least a number of Christians do. So-called "Reconstructionists" - totalitarian maniacs who say they believe God wants his country back.
Personally, I think they are on a power trip, but that does not change their ends, does it? In their world, a lot of people are going to be murdered.
And these religion camps serve to bring up a generation that will either reject this or come to believe in this absolutist manner. And these people make no long-term plans, because they do not believe the world will exist much longer. Very dangerous combination.
Jaybird, ANY philosophy that puts an ideal or notion or PERSON over the well-being and happiness of human beings is very, very dangerous. I would think we, as a species, would have realized this by now. I was wrong.
I ask you to join us, and no longer follow beliefs held by bronze-age shepherds, demente cult leaders and hellenized Jewish Roman reformers with big ideas. Join the human race. The alternative is to pursue our destruction.
COMVERT TO ISLAM OR DIE!!!!
BELIEVE IN JESUS OR BURN IN HELL!!!!
REJECT BOTH, LIVE IN REALITY "
Because you do not believe it does not make it reality.....
if i said i didnt believe in gravity then jumped off a tall building, what would happen?...(i know some of you would probably like that to happen too.)
"boomSLANG said...
Here ya go 'bird:
"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in." Deuteronomy 13:5"
Ok boomslang read the verses around it, no just the one verse out of context, in this passage the israelites are warned not to listen to false prophets or worship other false gods and idols...God says he will punish false prophets...yes God does judge, i know its shocking to you, but we will all be judged one day....
"boomSLANG said... A five point Calvinist will tell you it's predetermined who get's "saved" and who doesn't. In other words, it doesn't matter how blistered Jaybird's lips get from kissin' god's a$$.....he just might get incinerated by his "loving" Jebus. So who's got the right interpretation? Or is NOT "RELATIVE" to the denominational belief? Check mate..you LOSE."
Good one broomslang. i am not a calvinist and certinly do not believe in predestination. the bible teaches that God wants all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4)....again the Bible is not relative to the individual or the denomination....because the bible can be twisted to support a denominational view or belief, does not make it relative. no matter how it is twisted there is still only one way to Heaven and it is through Christ.
"boomslang said Check mate..you LOSE."
thats funny
"Leonard said...
Jaybird: Don´t you understand we are shocked? Not just by this movie but by your comments?"
i agreed this video is radical, i didn't make it...but were not trying harm anyone, its totally the opposite. you people are comparing christians to hitler and the taliban. christianity is not a violent faith...
"You state and declare that what you believe is absolute truth. How far, I wonder, would you go in expressing that if you had executive power? Would you outlaw homosexuality under pain of death? Would you make slavery legal again? Would you make it illegal to NOT be a Christian?"
this is a free country and i am a veteran in it...i believe that you should be able to worship as you please. I dont want to kill homosexuals, we want them to become saved, we don't want slavery to exist. thats silly.....
"Because I know at least a number of Christians do. So-called "Reconstructionists" - totalitarian maniacs who say they believe God wants his country back.
Personally, I think they are on a power trip, but that does not change their ends, does it? In their world, a lot of people are going to be murdered."
I also know of the reconstructionist, A Christian Reconstructionist is a Calvinist and comes from the reformed church. I also do not agree with this movement at all....This is not the beliefs of all christians.
"Jaybird, ANY philosophy that puts an ideal or notion or PERSON over the well-being and happiness of human beings is very, very dangerous. I would think we, as a species, would have realized this by now. I was wrong.
This makes great sense if you belive that this world is the end of existance...but we were created to worship and enjoy Gods grace here and in HEAVEN with him....if we accept his free gift of salvation that he has offered to all mankind.
I ask you to join us, and no longer follow beliefs held by bronze-age shepherds, demente cult leaders and hellenized Jewish Roman reformers with big ideas. Join the human race. The alternative is to pursue our destruction."
Well thank you leonard...your the only one here so far to invite me, everyone else pretty much has wished for my atoms to dissolve. ...lol
Hey Jaybird, don't forget to have your camera ready in Nevada so you can take some pictures of UFOs, and then go to Vegas to take some pictures of the real Elvis, and then go to Oregon to take pictures of Bigfoot! Then again, I shouldn't even compare you to them. UFO enthusiasts, Elvis nuts and Bigfoot hunters at least TRY to be rational and at least TRY to provide evidence by fabricating it. Sure, they may be crazies just like you, but at least they MAKE AN EFFORT to sound reasonable. You, on the other hand, just ask us to close our minds and not think. According to you,if the Buy-Bull says it, it's true, and if the apologist says it, it must be true as well.
No point in threatening me or anybody else on this forum. I am a Deist...I believe in a Higher Power, but not your fascist Biblegod. I believe that a Higher Power would create the Universe for a reason other than to kiss its ass. Biblegod makes no sense...a Higher Power that's less logical than a second grader, and less loving than a mass murderer like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. In the highly, highly unlikely event that you are right Bird, then so be it. I'd much rather go to hell with my friends, family, and all the Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and open minded and loving people than be with smug, intolerant, brainwashed, ass-kissing people like you.
I figure you won't be on these forums very long, Jaybird. Many closed-minded fundies like you tend to leave after a week, realizing that their brainwashing attempts are futile. We have only a handful of fundie regulars on this site, such as MQ59, and he at least tries to be logical and rational. I think MQ even believes in evolution...he at least tries to make sense. You, on the other hand, are just another closed minded troll.
of course I invite you. Most of us were Christians once. Dare I say it, we were where you are now.
*"this is a free country and i am a veteran in it...i believe that you should be able to worship as you please. I dont want to kill homosexuals, we want them to become saved, we don't want slavery to exist. thats silly..."
But would you make homosexuality illegal and enforce it, if you could? Would you protest if the government made such a law? Would you protest loudly?
You say we should be allowed to worship as we please. Does that mean we would also be allowed to not worship? Would we be allowed to send our children to schools where they are NOT told in science class that God created the world in seven days?
And slavery? The Bible endorses slavery, Jay. If the USA should become a theocracy again - it is not likely, but stranger things have surely happened! - there is no reason why slavery would not be reinstated. It would solve a lot of problems! No more homeless, no more junkies, no more hookers, no more shortage of cheap labor. So simple. Do you think this sounds absurd? God, I hope you think it sounds absurd.
Because this is the kind of world some people envision.
*"Jaybird, ANY philosophy that puts an ideal or notion or PERSON over the well-being and happiness of human beings is very, very dangerous. I would think we, as a species, would have realized this by now. I was wrong."
This makes great sense if you belive that this world is the end of existance...but we were created to worship and enjoy Gods grace here and in HEAVEN with him....if we accept his free gift of salvation that he has offered to all mankind.*
And what about those of us who do not believe that? Should we have to suffer under the people who DO believe that? Because that is what is going to happen unless a lot of people come to their senses very soon.
I don´t think the government has a right to force a religion on its people. But that is exactly what these people are ultimately aiming to do.
We people are comparing Christians to Hitler and the Taliban? Well, not all Christians by any means. Most Christians are decent folks, in spite of their beliefs.
But between Fred Phelps and this woman, I think the comparisons mentioned are completely justified.
I think it should be an actual crime to indoctrinate children (some of them are only 6 years old!) with any philosophy except basic decency.
Radio Guy said "Hitler would have been proud of these people." Without using hyperbole or getting hysterical, I say, "Yes, he would."
Right, so because Jaybird thinks Islam is false, that does NOT mean it's a "reality" that it IS false. So by Birdie's OWN logic, we can conclude that if Islam isn't necessarily false, then Christianity isn't necessarily true. BINGO!
Birdie: "...if i said i didnt believe in gravity then jumped off a tall building, what would happen?"
SPLAT!!!!Nonetheless, irrelevant conclusion. Gravity is a proven theory, and no one is denying it's existance. Why don't you "pray" before you jump, though, and see what happens.
Birdie denied that his holy book said that people who lead him away from his bible belong dead, so I provided him with the following verse:
"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in." Deuteronomy 13:5
Birdie's response: "...read the verses around it, no(not) just the one verse out of context, in this passage the israelites are warned not to listen to false prophets or worship other false gods and idols...God says he will punish false prophets...yes God does judge, i know its shocking to you, but we will all be judged one day...."
Nope, no one will be judged by a God---but back to the subject: Okay, now I provided the verse before it, and the verses after it, so you can't weasle out on a "context" issue. Birdie, please pay special attention to verses # 9 & 10 where it says "thine" hand...meaning YOUR hand.
4 "Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."
(verse 5 above)
6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 BUT THOU SHALT SURELY KILL HIM; THINE hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And THOU shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
Bird-man, the language is clear and concise. Please don't exploit your ignorance further by trying to weasle-word your way out of this. Thanks.
In regards to me saying that interpretation is relative to the person or denomination doing the interpreting, Birdie said:
"i am not a calvinist and certinly do not believe in predestination. the bible teaches that God wants all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4)....again the Bible is not relative to the individual or the denomination....because the bible can be twisted to support a denominational view or belief, does not make it relative. no matter how it is twisted there is still only one way to Heaven and it is through Christ."
Quote: "CAN BE TWISTED"
Of course, Jaybird misses the point and only helps make mine. Thanks Birdie! YaaaY!!! BTW, Jehovah's Witnesses say you're going to hell ; )
Birdie said: "Well thank you leonard...your the only one here so far to invite me, everyone else pretty much has wished for my atoms to dissolve. ...lol"
Hey, wait a minute...."atoms"?...I thought we were made out of dirt? LMAO !!!!!!
God 'less!
Maybe this is a good place to spend a few words on this whole dirt business. The notion that God made man "out of the dust of the Earth" stems from the creation story of Genesis 2; in the six-day-creation story in Genesis 1 it is not mentioned whether God makes man and woman out of something, and if so, what (Also interesting to note is that in Genesis 1 it is at least intimated that man and woman were made at the same time).
The name "Adam" can also mean "soil". So, I think we can assume that the intention of the writer of at least Genesis 2 was to clearly indicate that man was made out of dirt, soil, clay, or any earthy substance.
Now, chemically, this is problematic. Soil consists out of small particles of silicates, sometimes mixed with decaying plant and animal matter. But Genesis 2 suggests that plants were either created at the same time as man or even afterward. No rotting materials yet. Also, no decaying animal matter - Genesis 2 clearly states that animals were created AFTER man (unlike Genesis 1).
So if God made man out of soil, that means Adam was made out of silicates. A crystallized man. Weird.
In Inca creation myths, the creative deities Gugumetz and Huracan after several failed attempts make the first succesful batch of humans out of ears of corn. Corn is organic, of course, which makes this story much more likely.
Likewise, in Norse creation myths Odin, Hoenir and Lodur made the first people Ask and Embla out of driftwood. Also a carbon-based, organic substance.
The notion that you can make people out of clay was carried over into Jewish mysticism and the Qabalah; viz. the creation of the Golem out of clay. This was more spiritual, since the actual life was information (a word that was included in the creation of the Golem), not the clay at all.
And of course life, at its core, is not matter so much as information, organization.
At the end of the day, there is no difference, no difference whatsoever between the carbon atom in a blood cell in your heart and a carbon atom in an octane molecule in your gas tank. Or a carbon atom in the diamond in your ring. It´s all structure. Information.
The main difference between the Jews and the Christians is that the Jews, as mystics, are tireless thinkers, whereas the Christians thrive to STOP thinking.
Jesus, huh? Okay, so do you wash your hands before you eat?...or just your feet?
Birdie: "After all the Jews missed and Killed the Messiah....but we love them anyway...."
Was it an execution, suicide, homicide, or a sacrifice? Jesus christ!...make up your mind! lol
Likely carried over then from an Egyptian concept. The god Khnum created mankind on his potters wheel, out of clay from the Nile.
This combined with the other Egyptian god Ptah's story of having created man and breathed into him the 'breath of life'.
Both of these ideas are far older than Israel itself.
Acts 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds...
Jaybird, maybe you want to research some of this for yourself?
I've already read it umpteen times, JayBird...and it's contradictory, defies logic, and non-sensical....that's why I was relying on your True Christian™ insight. So tell the class---was it an execution, suicide, homicide, or a sacrifice? (Preferably, tell us in your own words, if possible.)
It's not how many times you read it, it's what you get out of it...
pay attention class!!
if you get this wrong there will be punishment....
This is Jesus speaking:
John 10:17-20 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"
i know you read this umpteen times, but in this passage Jesus teach that he will lay down his life as a sacrifice. However the jews did not understand that Jesus was the messiah so the crucifixion to them as an execution...
he payed your price, with his perfect sacrifice.
It's classic brainwashing. Break the captive audience emotionally and psychologically and then they'll accept anything you tell them. I recommend reading the classic book, "Battle for the Mind" by William Sargant.
This is not an attack against all Christians. There are Christians out there who do much good in the world (running homeless shelters, advocating for peace). My regards go out to those who practice kindness, compassion, tolerance, and peace. This film portrays the radical side, which, unfortunately, seems to be growing in America.
Bird interjected: "After all the Jews missed and Killed the Messiah....but we love them anyway...."
I responded: "Was it an execution, suicide, homicide, or a sacrifice?"
Bird "answered" the direct question with: "Read the story for yourself broomslug...lol"
My response: "I've already read it umpteen times, JayBird...and it's contradictory, defies logic, and non-sensical....that's why I was relying on your True Christian™ insight. So tell the class---was it an execution, suicide, or a sacrifice?"
Response from Bird: "It's not how many times you read it, it's what you get out of it..."
My current response. Okay JayBird, so now you're saying that it IS relative to the reader?...because two days ago you said quite the opposite(waffling). Notwithstanding, whatever the Jews call it is irrelevant to this conversation, as I'm debating you, a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, on this matter. Fine, you call it a "sacrifice". Okay, so then Jesus is dead, right Jaybird? Right...because if Jesus was resurrected IN THE FLESH, a logical person could conclude that Jesus is alive, not dead. So which is it, Bird? Is your Jesus dead---making it an execution...or does your Jesus live?---making it in no way, shape or form a "sacrifice".
Sacrifice:
1 : to offer as a sacrifice
2 : to suffer loss of, give up, renounce, injure, or destroy especially for an ideal, belief, or end.(Merriam Webster)
"This is Jesus speaking:
John 10:17-20 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"
i know you read this umpteen times, but in this passage Jesus teach that he will lay down his life as a sacrifice."
That is very interesting. Because at NO point in that quote does Jesus say, or even imply, that he is going to sacrifice himself. All he is saying is that he can die and come back to life as he wishes (and in fact, if someone can come back to life at will, how is dying ANY sort of sacrifice for him? He did not actually LOSE anything).
This particular Bible quote sounds much more Gnostic to me, and indeed some people consider John a Gnostic gospel.
By the way... Jesus was certainly not the Messiah that had ostensibly been predicted by the prophets. He was not descended from David (since Joseph was not his father - but that does not matter anyway, because Joseph´s bloodline was cursed); he did not liberate the Jews from their oppressors, the Romans; he did not bring back the lost tribes, after drying the rivers that seperated them from Israel; and if you want to bring up the famous "suffering servant", he did NOT have a long and prosperous life after his ordeal, nor did the kings of the world share their power with him, nor did he see his children or even HAVE any children, as far as the Bible is concerned.
Also, Jesus ostensibly took the dignity of God for himself in forgiving sins, something even the High Priest may only ASK God for.
That is blasphemy, and that carried the death penalty. So did breaking the sabbath, of course, and Jesus admitted he had broken the sabbath.
According to the Covenant, which was supposedly FOR ALL TIME, assuming God did not lie, Jesus was deserving of death, albeit by stoning and not crucifixion. However, he WAS crucified, offering us a much simpler explanation: Jesus was simply executed by the Romans for assumed insurrection, just like thousands of other Jews in the early first century (I heard the number 6000), many of whom undoubtedly were called Jesus. His shocked followers, who had believed he was the Messiah, soon came up with a scenario that allowed them to kepe believing this: His death had been part of the plan all along.
As regards the resurrection: Did you know that the actual resurrection does not appear in Mark, the oldest Gospel in the Bible? That part was added later. Interesting, that.
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Spacemonk: Interesting! I did not know that. Is there anything the Jews did not steal from the Egyptians, religion-wise?
I mean, Jesus´ story is taken almost event by event from Horus´ life story.
"TEACHER,..LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!!!!"
"he payed your price, with his perfect sacrifice."
It was not that perfect if there was no real sacrifice involved. It's not like he did it thinking he was going to stay dead.
You have to wonder about people that live thier life on a system that is rewards based and short on personal responsibility
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