“Let the dead bury their dead”
By Brian Worley
In my mind, perhaps the most stunning words rendered from the lips of Jesus were from Matthew 8:22 “Let the dead bury their dead”. These are the words of Jesus given to a grieving disciple, not to a foe! This disciple wanted to go and bury his dead father. Certainly life should be respected and moral beings should pay their respects in memory to those loved ones whom have just died, if they are able to do so. Jesus gets credited for having great character and compassion, but honesty demands that his curt attitude towards death, humanity, and lack of respect for those in grief be placed upon his sinless account!
The Rumbula Forest (Riga, Latvia)
Recently, I took a long walk through the snow-covered Rumbula Forest on the outskirts of Riga, Latvia. I had driven past this area many times in the past year, not realizing the dark historical significance of what took place at this locale on November 30 and December 08, 1941. Some things should never be forgotten! Since this will reach an international audience, I feel the need to briefly introduce a portion of history that is often never taught. My purpose is two-fold. First, I want to affirm that genocide/holocausts are not a figment of the imagination in Eastern Europe, it is history! Second I want to examine the character of “Christ” and bring up some of what I believe to be original thoughts about Jesus concerning his respect for life and his reaction to genocide.
Information vs. Misinformation
People must realize that there is true information in life as well as misinformation. Just because someone writes or says something, doesn’t necessarily make it true or false. People can be mistaken and often agendas are at work to mislead people. A lot is at stake when you speak about genocide/holocausts. At this point, I can only tell you that I have been working to document events; some are gruesome accounts that I have been told by people that I trust. Any other statements now would be counter- productive to my pursuits.
According to http://www.rumbula.org/remembering_rumbula.shtml somewhere between 25,000 and 27,800 Jewish people were killed on these two dates. My interest in this comes from relationships, location, and the desire to use my background in religion to break down hatred with reason. Relationship wise, my wife’s deceased father was Jewish. His brother was taken away to what was believed to be a Siberian labor camp and was never heard from again! Most people do not realize that unless your mother is Jewish, you are not considered to be Jewish by most Jewish people. The reason my wife isn’t considered to be Jewish is because her mother is Latvian. I do love my wife and am coming to practically realize what life is a small country and Jewish descendants face on a daily basis. It is wise for those people that are hated “to grow eyes in the back of their heads”.
Would Christianity have made a difference?
In my You Can’t Have it Both Ways Part 2, I posed what I then believed to be a deep rhetorical question. The question was, “Would Christianity had made a difference in a genocide /holocaust situation”? Several things have helped me to satisfactorily answer this question now: 1) That stroll through the Rumbula Forest; 2) Reading portions of Richard Rhodes’ Masters of Death: The SS Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust; 3) Preparation for an upcoming pod-cast about the character of Christ!
In his book, Rhodes speaks about a method that the death squad at Rumbala utilized that is in common vernacular expressed as sardine packing. This book review link will speak about this method of killing and stacking of the dead bodies, http://www.arlindo-correia.com/120802.html , I caution you that this made me sick when I read it. In putting this all together, after reading this, you will understand that at Rumbala the dead actually participated in burying the dead. Jesus’ ugly words, “let the dead bury their dead” has since gained a new understanding to this exminister!
Jesus was silent about genocide
Do you recall the maniac Herod in Matthew 2:16-18 when he “sent forth and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under”? Can anyone deny that this is genocide? Better yet, can anyone tell me what Jesus had to say about this atrocity? Jesus was silent about this horrible genocide! If Jesus was God, as claimed, don’t you think his addressing brutality and bloodshed might have made some difference within future disciples? History shows us that religious leaders have a propensity to attract bloodshed more than peaceful solutions. Voltaire was a wise man that understood this: “Those who can get you to believe absurdities, can get you to commit atrocities.”
The Bible: An anti-Semetic book!
With Jesus’ silence on genocide, I want people to see that this isn’t just a simple oversight. A supposed deity doesn’t get allowed to be silent about large numbers of people being killed! Certainly, he would be considered to be a hypocrite to speak out against Herod’s genocide with the Matthew 24 future mass killing and planned destruction of Jewish people in the tribulation period that so many Christians today speak of! Yes, the bible is an anti-Semetic book!
I will propose two more reasons why Christ was quiet about this. Perhaps Jesus did speak about this, but this wasn’t included within the Christian Canon. A simple reading of John 21:25 would allow for this scenario. “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” In a situation like this, you would have to conclude that this wasn’t considered important enough to include within the Canon of scripture and thus shows apathy, cowardice or acquiescence towards the event!
A Reasonable Explanation for the Silence of Jesus
A more likely reason that Jesus was silent about this atrocity is because Jesus was likely a figment of someone’s imagination, not a real life historical person! In like manner, this probably also explains the silence of history about such a dastardly deed like Herod initiated! This fictional character Jesus likely was a created personage that later grew into legendary status in time. Simply put, the writing creators of Jesus never thought about this and the many other problems within their fraudulent Bible. A great way to understand how this might happen is to watch the great movie, The Shawshank Redemption. In the later stages of the movie, the Tim Robbins character Andy Dufresne tells his imprisoned friend “Red” played by Morgan Freeman about the lucrative scam that he had concocted while in the prison. Red is concerned that if this gets discovered they will come after Dufresne. Andy Dufresne proceeds to tell Red that if they do, all they will find is a phantom, and will be chasing a figment of his imagination like Peter Rabbit or Bugs Bunny. He had created false passports and identifications, by the time that people finally understood this, he would be long gone.
Concluding Thoughts
In conclusion, I am not impressed with the character of Jesus. Yes, some things attributed to Jesus have value but we are not speaking about some purported man here, but supposedly God himself! With this said, Jesus is not worthy to be worshiped, believed in or to be followed! In practice, I usually have a list of topics (20-25 deep) that I plan to write about in the future for Exminister. These topics are truths that I feel compelled to write about as the thought develops in time. Many preachers plan sermons this same way. Let the dead bury their dead was not on my list but quickly grabbed my attention because it stirred my inner being and I could not be silent!
Brian Worley
April 2, 2008
Exminister.org
All Rights Reserved
tag: Christianity, Bible, ex-christian, ex-minister,
This is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. I must say that we are brothers in the same cause.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your wise words. I have now gone back and read some of the previous posts you have made that I missed because of how late I joined.
Brian,
ReplyDeleteAccording to some of the books that I have read, the gospels are complete fictions written in the late first century/early second century. Was "Let the dead bury the dead" originally from the Book of Q? If so, that might explain why it appears forced and out of place.
Also, what were the intentions of the writers of the gospels? From what I have read, it was to give credence and substance to their individual Christian communities, who probably had conflicts with the Jews. Why would they feel sympathetic towards the Jews?
Brian, that was some good reading from you,(as always). I also love to visit your website.
ReplyDeleteYou have always wrote things about the bible/god, that has helped me to see just how god/jesus are the worst "characters" that "MAN" has ever thought up to write a book about.
Best regards, Roger
Hello Brian. I just wanted to say that my initial reading of this confirmed my earlier conclusions of the usual superb quality of your rhetoric. I would like to reread it (that is, study it) before I put forth my views. Sometimes I read too fast and missunderstand an article's intent or details but you probably already know that about me. :)
ReplyDeleteI will say now that every time you post I learn something new (the idea of the Jewish mother as opposed to the father for one).
Brian,
ReplyDeleteWhatever else you may think of Jesus, I think he was a liar and a hypocrite. Based on the Trinity doctrine, of course, and the evil he himself perpetrated, in terms of the stories narrated in the Old Testament. That is, if you believe Jesus is God himself or Son of God.
A Christian who embraces the Trinity doctrine cannot be expected to have his cake and eat it, too. Right?
I appreciate everyone that has taken the time to comment and for your nice comments! I can't answer the question about the Book of Q, maybe someone else here can. I wrote this because it really moved me!
ReplyDeleteBrian,
ReplyDeleteI'll also go on record saying I always enjoy your posts -- very thoughtful stuff. I remember reading about the Latvia massacre and how they crowded them into spaces that would actually suffocate individuals, thereby saving the need for extra bullets. Let us also remember the SS had the insignia "Gott Mit Uns" on their belts, so all you xtians can drop the "nazis were atheists" nonsense. A person could almost excuse the apostle Paul for his theory on original sin. Seems that humans are capable of such incredible viciousness and depravity that some theory of the sort was bound to come up sooner or later.
I have always been confused by statements such as 'let the dead bury their own dead' and 'he who does not hate his mother and father on my account...' and how believers try to harmonize such statements with the 'blessed be the poor in spirit' writings. I lean closer to the theory of Jesus as myth than I used to based on such things. As the antichristian said, it seems that individual writings sprang up to defend particular communal beliefs and these were all later mashed into one big pot called the NT. Until the invention of the time machine, I guess it will always be speculation.
Hi Brian.
ReplyDeleteI too enjoy your posts and wanted to comment on the "let the dead bury the dead" comment by Jesus.
I think this comment coming from anyone is coldhearted and callous at best. But then, comparing the coldhearted and callous God of the OT, Jesus was showing his true colors.
Actually, I don't believe the Jesus character ever existed either.
Thanks for your input. Jim Earl
Brian, I liked your topical thought and enjoyed this article very much. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteBrian,
ReplyDeleteNice, well-written article. You scared me at the beginning. I thought you thought of Jesus as historical.
I have often thought of compiling a list of instances of mean comments attributed to "sweet" Jesus. But I have to admit that the nasty, "Let the dead bury their dead," wasn't one I had thought of.
Yes, Jesus is portrayed as nasty, a racist, a hypocrite, and possibly a mentally ill individual (nobody comes to the father but through me?).
And those who follow him do pretty nasty things, like performing mass murder and invading nations purposelessly.
The scriptural quote you are attempting to deface can seen in Matthew and Luke.:
ReplyDeleteMatthew 8:22 "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead."
Luke 9:60 "Let the dead bury their dead. But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
You reference the quote “let the dead bury their dead” but you have omitted the important portions of His message:
“Follow me” and “But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God”
The purpose of these two verses is for Jesus to teach us what has priority in our lives. “Let the dead bury their dead” is a demand of Jesus that overrides what both the Jewish and the Hellenistic world regarded as a filial obligation of the highest importance.
As well “Let the dead bury their dead” should be interpreted as let the spiritually dead (those who do not follow) bury their physically dead.
Jesus is full of love and compassion for us throughout the Gospels and He most certainly wants us to properly honor our loved ones when they pass away. He uses the request of one of His disciples to demonstrate for us, in a very dramatic way, where God should be in our lives. The method by which Jesus teaches this important truth is, like so much of His teachings, only acceptable to those that love Him. In His amazing brilliance and genius He masks this little lesson from those that don’t love Him and lets those that do love Him understand what He’s saying. He’s simply saying to place Jesus as number one in our lives.
He is the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of all, He deserves nothing less.
OTC
OTC wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of these two verses is for Jesus to teach us what has priority in our lives
---
And that folks, is why it's called "APOLOGETICS", because xtians have to continually 'apologize' for the nonsense and secret meanings, obscurely inserted between the lines of the bible's text.
I asked god for my own personal "secret bible decoder ring", but I guess you have to be special to find one of those in the bottom of your Cracker Jax candy, like OTC evidently has.
>He is the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of all, He deserves nothing less.
Alpha and Omega?
Oh yeah, those were the two Greek gods that beat up your Yahweh god, right OTC?
Hey OTC, does your 'HE' god ever get horny, like most males do?
Just curious to know is all.
ATF (Who just ordered a crate of Cracker Jax, directly from god's candy store)
ATF: "Alpha and Omega? Oh yeah, those were the two Greek gods that beat up your Yahweh god, right OTC?"
ReplyDelete(falls off chair laughing)
Alpha and Omega are also My initials in Greek. :-D Coincidence? I. Think. Not.
Trade you a snoot of Glenfiddich for some of that CrackerJack, ATF?
Astreja said...
ReplyDeleteTrade you a snoot of Glenfiddich for some of that CrackerJack, ATF?
----
[ATF quickly digs through every box of Cracker Jax that just arrived on a huge crate, but alas, no bible decoder ring was found]
Astreja, I'm not really a Scotch drinker, but I'll take a rum based "tropical island drink", if you have any around up there?
In either case, I have way too much Cracker Jax on my hands now (literally) and I'd be more than glad to share a few dozen boxes of it with you.
Some of the boxes even have a prize of a special ring, which changes from hellfire-yellow to reality-blue, when one's mind starts to suspect that god is only a man-made myth.
Sorry Astreja, but I have to keep one to send to OTC so he can find reality and lose his sky daddy illusion.
ATF (Who also received a free bonus of some Jesus-Juice with his Cracker Jax)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletethrows pineapple juice, a squirt of lemon, and a jigger of rum into blender)
ReplyDelete*rrrrrr*
Hmm, better make that a double. (pours in more rum)
Here ya go, ATF, one Havana frappé to quell the headaches induced by this thread.
And, if in your quest through the Cracker Jack boxes you happen to find a Divine Mood Ring permanently stuck in "Wrath-of-God Black", hang onto it. We may be able to dust it for prints and finally bust that guy who had his kid nailed to a tree.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOTC,
ReplyDeleteAre you on mind altering drugs? Or am I hurting your corrupt business?
It is evident that you don't believe YOUR bible, I wouldn't either. In context this is clearly to be understood LITERALLY, from Matt. 8:18 "when Jesus saw the great multitude around him". I might ask you, are those REAL PEOPLE around him to be taken by ignorant people like you and apologists (Christian lying PR department) as spiritual? You are wasting my time and you are really showing how stupid a human being can be! I noticed your profile didn't mention if you completed grade school....did you? ATF and Astreja: I am also laughing with you! Bloviator that was a great comment and as always from Lorena!
Now OTC why are you quiet about the silence from Jesus about the holocaust? I suppose that means you consent and that this is OK from the Christian perspective? We need an answer!!!!!!
He is the Alpha and the Omega, ie. the First and the Last, ie. the Beginning and the End. Hope that clears this up for you.
ReplyDeleteBrian wrote: { It is evident that you don't believe YOUR bible, I wouldn't either.}
Interesting, now you make claims of knowing my heart? Sounds like you’re omniscient. Sorry to disappoint you Brian but no, I am not like you. I do believe and, by God’s grace, I will never surrender to the sin of apostasy.
Next time you want to deface the word of God, please try referencing the entire quote. It is very clear that Jesus was simply trying to show us which priority He should be given in our lives. You argue that it should be taken literally and this is exactly what I am doing. Taken literally, these verses say exactly what they were meant to say; Jesus is number one.
The only reason you can’t see this meaning is because of your pride which blinds you from His word. You read the verse and become insulted because the creator of the Universe says let the dead bury the dead. Those that don’t follow Him, are dead, it’s as simple as that. If you don’t follow Jesus you will die twice, your earthly death and you will die in eternity by being sent to complete darkness. Jump up and down, scream bloody murder, hate with all your might, and yell at everyone, it won’t matter; if you despise Jesus, you will have made your choice. While alive, you can change your choice by admitting of your sins. A repentant heart will be forgiven.
With regards to why Jesus never spoke about the massacre, maybe you should ask yourself why it’s so necessary for you to hear Him address this historical event? Why this one and not the multitude of other historical events? This massacre mentioned by Matthew simply demonstrates how wicked men can become when it comes to the Son of God.
One True Church
OTC uttered:
ReplyDeleteHe is the Alpha and the Omega, ie. the First and the Last, ie. the Beginning and the End. Hope that clears this up for you.
-----
I always found this passage interesting.
I'm sure no "true xtain" would see the possible inference in this passage, that always bothered me, even in my xtain days.
Could this passage imply that jesus/god had a "beginning" (the Alpha).
If so, then it contradicts the common DOG-ma that jesus/god always had existed, for something that always existed, could not have had an 'Alpha' beginning.
If we accept this inference of jesus/god having a "beginning", then you just have to love the thought that jesus will be the Omega to, meaning, he also has a END.
Gosh, I wonder what letter in the Greek alphabet jesus is up to these days, in his limited lifetime as a 'god' ?
ATF (Who personally always preferred the Greek letter for PIE; as in the cream PIE I want to throw at OTC right now)
P.S. to OTC: A human without some pride, is as useful to the human cause, as a lead parachute is to a skydiver
OTC: "As well “Let the dead bury their dead” should be interpreted as let the spiritually dead (those who do not follow) bury their physically dead."
ReplyDeleteNice, so you make claims about knowing the "heart" (cognitive state of well-being), of those who the character Jesus knew around him, in a setting a few thousand years ago.
OTC, in order for you to even speak of a character in a literary story book, you have to assume their "cognitive state of well-being", (heart).
Have you met and discussed what the literary character Jesus meant, by the passage you present? How do you proclaim to "know" the cognitive state of well-being for this character Jesus?
OTC, while we can communicate with you, and determine "your mental state" to some degree, you don't get that opportunity with a book, with literary characters.
Perhaps, the equivalent would be a psychiatrist reading Peter Pan, to determine the well-being/heart of Tink...
Well, let's see, if God/Jesus damned everyone to Hell (mistakenly?) based on the Christian tradition of Original Sin, it would appear that further failure continued as the character Jesus was unable to awaken the heart/cognitive well-being, of those around him.
Perhaps, those of his day believed him to be mentally-ill, you know, like a God who damns everyone to a horrific Hell they created, and then tries to fix this blunder, etc.
The literary bible and Jesus as mentally-ill...
Let's see how the authors of your literary bible (not you), interpret the mental well-being (heart) of Jesus, shall we.
In Mark 3:21, the character Jesus was presented as having lost his senses - let's discuss.
The author of Mark divides his narrative into two scenes in 3:20-35. One scene takes place where Jesus resides (verses 20, 22-35) the other is where his "kinsmen" are to be found (verse 21). It was these kinsmen, his mother and brothers, who "went out to take custody of him [Jesus]."
Now, OTC, no one goes out to "take custody" of someone they believe to be "sane", or... in the right cognitive state of well-being/heart. It's obvious, the character Jesus' family and kinsmen believed he lost his "mind"/heart, and wasn't in a good "state".
In order to take custody of the character Jesus, they had to go where he was residing. As a result, the text says, "...his own kinsmen...went out to take custody of him..." In verse 31 the narrative describes their arrival at the place where Jesus was staying.
Jesus is told that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him. His answer, "Who are my mother and my brothers?... For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother," (verses 33-35) shows that he was hostile to their attempt to see him.
There could be but one reason. His family, mother, brothers, and sisters, believed him to be mentally ill and had not come simply to see him, but had come to seize him.
The Christian belief is that the OT of the bible concluded, because there was a "New Testament", created. The NT was concluded, because the rapture, etc., were all to have happened during the apostolic era - making the bible a literature book, not anything of prophetic value.
So, now... we get to listen to Christians, Catholics, etc., interpret literature, as "if" their interpretations will somehow revive/resuscitate the bible, as a prophetically valuable work - relevant and "necessary" for those who live today.
This shows a level of illiteracy, denial, or a combination of both.
Common symptoms; people stating the bible is relevant today for their salvation or grace, which requires Hell to exist, grace without the potential for non-grace is childishly absurd... people speaking of characters in a fictional literary book, as if they are real; further, speaking "for" the literary characters, and what they "really meant" to portray by their words and actions (apologetics).
Now, while I cite and quote the bible, I realize it's only fictional literature; I could just as easily be talking about Santa Clause, and how mad he gets when his reindeer don't obey his orders.
One main difference however, modern books of fiction, are typically much more cohesive, and do not contain the level of obvious conflict and contradiction found in the bible - meaning, the bible was not written by authors listening to a single source for their inspiration.
OTC, not only is the bible irrelevant for prophetic value, it's too conflicted to be of any consistent use, because of all of the conflict & contradiction associated within its pages.
If you would like to proffer a different "view" of the mental well-being of the character Jesus, then we can see how divisive the passages of the bible are in that context alone.
If you would like to proffer "any" other theme from the bible, I can almost guarantee I can offer a counter-argument to show internal contradiction as a "single book", inspired by a single source.
isn't it quite ironic that jesus addressed his disciple in such a manner, and then turns around and WEEPS over lazarus?
ReplyDeleteluke 16:19-31
OTC, let the dead bury the dead, can also be extended to the Jews who did not choose to support the Roman Empire's state religion. All who opposed the Roman theocracy early CE, were prosecuted, typically murdered - physically, not spiritually.
ReplyDeleteLater on..., "Martin Luther (November 10, 1483–February 18, 1546) was a German university professor whose confrontation with Charles V at the Diet of Worms over freedom of conscience in 1521 was one of the events that initiated the Protestant Reformation. He was a monk, theologian, and church reformer."
"Much scholarly debate has concentrated on Luther's writings about the Jews. His statements that Jews' homes should be destroyed, their synagogues burned, money confiscated and liberty curtailed were revived and used in propaganda by the Nazis in 1933–45.[8] As a result of this and his revolutionary theological views, his legacy remains controversial."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther
Let's be candid here; Martin Luther's message, primed Germany to become a genocidal Nazi state. His message as a Protestant Christian was sounded "years" upon "years" via proselytizing the message of anti-Semitism.
Hitler, was able to rise to power, and be a state "actor", because he was "following" the vision of Martin Luther... Hitler's message appealed to the citizens of Germany, or at least, no one opposed Hitler in mass numbers because they had been given the message of anti-Semitism from childhood; they were programmed, and the mindset was cultural.
What is interesting about let the dead bury the dead, is that the character Jesus picks and chooses who he helps and cares for based on some required attribute... OTC suggests the attribute to be that of spirituality (well-being).
Hitler, picked who he chose to help and care for, based on attributes as well... he murdered; Roma citizens, Soviets, particularly prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; other Slavic people; the disabled; gay men; and political and religious dissidents, such as Jehovah's witnesses, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
The same irrational "cynicism" given by the character Jesus to selected Jews and people who did not bow to his cause; was the same type "cynicism" given by Martin Luther to "all" Jews and those who didn't champion his cause of Protestantism.
Hitler, channeled the cognitive pressures of Germans, developed by Martin Luther's message, to carry out his vision of supremacy; and for that, the Germans gave their political support.
Let the dead bury the dead, is a statement of one's inhumanity; from God and his "actor" Jesus, to Martin Luther and his "actor" Hitler.
OTC, do you support the inhumane action of the character Jesus, who was supposed to be helping "humanity", and not just "special people" as a messiah?
If you do support the literary actions of a messianic Jesus character, then do you have a problem with Hitler's messianic actions, as he attempted to deliver supremacy to the German people?
By the way OTC, what is this "One True Church" you speak of; The Roman Catholic Church?
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the Alpha and Omega, ATF said
ReplyDelete"...the possible inference in this passage, ... Could ... imply that jesus/god had a "beginning" (the Alpha). If so, then it contradicts the common DOG-ma that jesus/god always had existed, for something that always existed, could not have had an 'Alpha' beginning.
If we accept this inference of jesus/god having a "beginning", then you just have to love the thought that jesus will be the Omega to, meaning, he also has a END."
ATF, the next time we hear some dumbass xtian spouting the Alpha/Omega line, can we steal your response? If you don't mind, that is!
Oh, if only the Omega happens in our lifetime! What bliss! ;-)
The Omega happening combined with Astreja's Havanna Frappe!
Now that's REAL HEAVEN ON EARTH! Margaritaville! LOL
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega with regards to our existence, not His existence. He is the source of our beginning and He decides our end. It will either be with Him or not.
ReplyDeleteThe "I Am" always existed. We, His created beings had a beginning and He was the source of our beginning.
Buffettphan wrote: {Oh, if only the Omega happens in our lifetime! What bliss! ;-)}
Buffettphan,
The Omega will happen in your lifetime, you will die. Seek the Truth because if you don’t have Jesus’ Mercy, you will surely die twice.
Dave8,
The OTC "One True Church" is the one and only Church of Jesus Christ of which the Roman Catholic faith has been blessed to have the fullness of truth relating to issues of Faith and Morals for God's Church members on earth.
OTC
Marc, Marc, Marc (OTC, unblinded, and a host of other trollish names and monikers):
ReplyDeleteNo one dies in Christianity! Every single human on the planet is promised to live forever and ever and ever. The only question is the location of the everlasting accommodations.
And if you're the type of company I can expect to find in God's heaven, I willingly choose other accommodations.
No offense.
Peace, love, and a big wet sloppy kiss on the lips! :)
OTC wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe "I Am" always existed
---
Hey OTC,
I double-dare you to prove that god always existed.
In fact, I'll settle for you just merely proving that god exists right now.
ATF (Who can make up his own meanings of scripture, just as all xtians DO!!)
OTC,
ReplyDeleteLions and tigers and bears. Oh my. How 'bout this - I promise to be scared and repent just as soon as you provide real evidence that your god exists and your jesus will be back here in my lifetime.
After all, if HE did it for Mr. Doubting Thomas, HE can do it for the rest of us.......... right????????????
Time to pull back that curtain, OTC, even if it's just for your own sanity.
OTC: "He is the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of all, He deserves nothing less."
ReplyDeleteOTC, when you say He, you mean the Creator of all, and exists as the alpha and omega.
OTC: "Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega with regards to our existence, not His existence. He is the source of our beginning and He decides our end. It will either be with Him or not."
OTC, now you suggest the alpha and omega is not descriptive of an infinite Creator, but the existence of us mortals.
Revelation 1:8 - "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
I know you're RC OTC, but still, doesn't it make you curious what the bible says? I know, you have a modern day messiah/pope, who basically creates doctrine and delegates sainthood, tells you what to think and do, but... geez, can you at least "read" the bible for your own sake, so you don't sound ridiculous when you respond to people "using" your bible.
The alpha and omega, suggests that the literary Creator character, was all there was in the beginning from whence all things came, and will be there in the end; during tribulation, to see all things end, as the “unchanging” New Kingdom is established.
However, OTC, per the literary bible, the beginning and end has already passed, right.
You have been challenged by others to provide evidence for a Divine Creator's "beginnings", for which you will surely have none, and history can't be proven.
However, your literary "bible" itself, declares an "ending" date, during the apostolic era, where your literary God character was supposed to show up, reign supreme, and bring in the New Kingdom for "all" believers.
In other words OTC, per your literary bible, the "Omega", has already occurred. The Book of Revelation is addressed to the apostles/servants.
Revelation 1:1 - "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass."
Revelation 1:3 - "The time is at hand."
Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:12 - "Behold, I come quickly."
Revelation 22:20 - "Surely I come quickly."
OTC, after the literary apostles/servants were proselytized to, they carried on the message to followers…
Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Luke 9:27 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
Matthew 23:36 - "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
Matthew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mark 13:30 - "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
John 21:22 - "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"
So, OTC, you have what I consider a conundrum... if you believe in the literary bible as non-fiction, as opposed to fictional.
If you speak of the Alpha and Omega, per Revelation, as a “true idea”... then you have to accept that the entirety of the Book of Revelation and the Gospels, are credible as well, and not only has the literary God character established some new kingdom on earth during the lifetime of the apostles, the 1K year period of peace that was to follow - has already elapsed, and we are currently living "beyond" that 1K year period.
So, we are left as living in either some type of Gehenna/Hell or Heaven/Paradise at the moment; forever with no possible change. Of course, this belief would totally undermine the need for salvation, grace, listening to a pastor, preacher, bishop, cardinal, pope, etc. Further, such a belief is totally contrary to the fact that we “die”, which is definitely “change”.
So, again, if you want to enter into evidence The Book of Revelation and the Gospels, as non-fiction, so you can make some authoritative comment about Alpha and Omega, then you build a case that undermines the credibility, utility, validity, relevance, etc., of modern Christendom altogether.
OTC, you get to choose which way your belief system unravels.
Why don't you just be a good RC, and say that your true messiahs are the Pope and Mary, since Mary hypothetically delivered salvation to humanity via the birth of the character Jesus, and the Pope who continues to create modern doctrine (based on his whims), because the bible hasn't been relevant if taken as non-fiction for over a thousand years.
Ya know, OTC, as a former catholic myself, I can say you espouse the most confused/confusing set of catholic doctrine I've ever had the pleasure of hearing/seeing/reading...
ReplyDeleteYou really do sound more like a run-of-the-mill protestant fundie... just with an added bit of looniness thrown in for fun.
Have a nice day!
My apologies, when God refers to Himself as the Alpha and the Omega he likely means His eternal existence. Nevertheless, my point about our existence remains; we have a beginning and He is the reason.
ReplyDeleteWM wrote: {Every single human on the planet is promised to live forever and ever and ever.}
WM,
Yes, but you'll still die to your humanity and in eternity you only have the fullness of life if you're with God. You'll always exist but to exist apart from God is not life, it's Hell and Hell is spiritual death.
I could never prove that God exists just like you could never prove that an inanimate Universe came to have life through random events. Miracles could happen right before your eyes and most of you wouldn't believe, just like the Pharisees.
OTC
OTC: "Miracles could happen right before your eyes and most of you wouldn't believe, just like the Pharisees."
ReplyDeleteUnsupported assertion... You know nothing about what we would or would not believe if an actual miracle occurred.
Comments such as yours reveal you to be just as pharisaical (if not more so) than you claim we are. You have already "predicted" our response to an event we have never experienced, based on your religious predilection and outright ignorance of different-thinking personae such as ourselves.
And you think this sordid behaviour of yours will inspire us to want to be like you? Guess again.
On a more cheerful note...
(grabs Her blender, some tequila and Triple Sec, a bag of limes, some ice and a saucer of coarse salt and mixes virtual Margaritas for the house)
OTC: "My apologies, when God refers to Himself as the Alpha and the Omega he likely means His eternal existence. Nevertheless, my point about our existence remains; we have a beginning and He is the reason."
ReplyDeleteOh, OTC, can't you stay fixated on the topic... I'm quite sure Brian doesn't appreciate the, tangential discussions that have led far off of Jesus' not so compassionate moments. Perhaps, we can discuss a sequel to the move "The Passion of Christ", perhaps... "The Non-Passion of Christ"?
I know you're trying to keep your head above water with the alpha and omega thingy, I mean, you'd actually have to read the bible to really understand what is going on - before even discussing the pages within, or advancing a hypothesis on its fictional or non-fictional status.
However, like "everything" else in Nature, to include the bible, it stands as a multi-contextual creation, based on the environmental influences that surrounded those who authored the bible - mostly anonymous.
Do you understand the influences that surrounded the creation of the New Testament, OTC? Going back to the Nicaean Creed, and the First Council of Nicaea, where an elected clergy, voted on the divinity of Jesus, there was an objective.
The objective, established by Constantine I, was to "unite" the Roman Empire, by assembling documents that brought together many locally accepted mythical elements, around the central theme of Jesus' Divinity as The Jewish Messiah, to conclude the Old Testament prophesies.
The local mythical/spiritual believers included "Gnostics".
--------------------------
Gnostic beliefs:
The Nag Hummadi find revealed that there was a broad range of beliefs among the various independent Gnostic systems or schools. However, the following points are believed to be generally accurate throughout the movement:
Their Role: They believed that they alone truly understood Christ's message, and that other streams of thought within Christianity had misinterpreted Jesus' mission and sayings.
Snake Symbol -- the Ouroboros: (a.k.a. Ourorboros, Oroborus, Uroboros or Uroborus) This is:
"... an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon swallowing its own tail and forming a circle. It has been used to represent many things over the ages, but it most generally symbolizes ideas of cyclicality, unity, or infinity. ... In Gnosticism, this serpent symbolized eternity and the soul of the world. 1"
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm
--------------------------
Okay, OTC... next bible lesson, the Alpha and Omega don't represent a linear segment, where there is a beginning and an end.
While the circle, hypothetically... has existed, before recorded history, per... many scholars, it was considered sacred by religious/spiritual groups, because it held magical properties - infinity for instance - a perfect symbol representing Eternity, and Unity.
"The circular, harmonic cross was an emblem used most notably by the Cathars, a medieval group that related to Gnosticism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
"Along with other ancestral symbols, the sun cross is also used as a symbol by Pagans as an attempt at reconstruction of ancient Germanic and Slavic pre-Christian religion and culture."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross
"The sun cross, a cross inside a circle, is one of the oldest and most widespread of symbols. The Neolithic symbol combining cross and circle is the simplest conceivable representation of the union of opposed polarities in the Western world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross
"Neolithic culture appeared in the Levant (Jericho, modern-day West Bank) about 8500 BC."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic
Okay, OTC let me go ahead and connect the dots for you, since you aren't interested in diminishing your pure RC theology.
The "circle" represented unity, cyclic movements, and eternal perfection. An unbroken and eternal symbol like the circle can be said to possess the attributes of the alpha and omega - for eternity.
The New Testament had Gnostic elements throughout, as well as other religious elements.
The circle was as well adopted as symbols throughout history... You know wedding rings (circles), and such that represent unyielding and eternal love. Which religion was it that established marital vows, ceremonial rites, etc? You know OTC, come on, you're a RC.
When I suggested that the "end times" were spoken of in the Book of Revelation, I was hoping you would respond that the "Omega" never happened as the bible stated it would during the apostles' lifetimes - because it obviously "didn't". Then we could at least agree that the bible is fictional - as it is.
However, you have since concluded that alpha and omega does represent the eternal existence of the creator god character... but that, events within that eternal "circle", like human life, will have a discrete beginning and end - without affecting the eternal existence of one creator god character.
Still, the bible, with all its Pagan and Gnostic symbology, declared that the "End of Days" would occur during the apostolic era... regardless, of the hypothetical eternal existence of a creator god character (see previous post) - using the words alpha and omega to symbolize such idea.
If you want, we can discuss the "cross", within the "circle" as a symbol as well ;-)
You know, the Sun Cross, for One Sun God, or "God Son/Sun", or "Son/Sun of God", etc. displayed upon a "cross".
Hopefully, you understand that sun worship, or son worship has been a literal constant since recorded history...
OTC: "Nevertheless, my point about our existence remains; we have a beginning and He is the reason."
Well, of course the Sun God is responsible for our existence, without sun light, our planet never would have been able to generate an atmosphere to support our development.
OTC: "Miracles could happen right before your eyes and most of you wouldn't believe, just like the Pharisees."
I see the entirety of Nature as miraculous OTC... I just refuse to allow "religions", and your "bible", to rob me of my wonder - by proffering simple outdated myths, as "answers" to my most wonderful observations in Nature.
Marc the troll (OTC) wrote, "Miracles could happen right before your eyes and most of you wouldn't believe, just like the Pharisees."
ReplyDeleteThe point being, obviously, that miracles DON'T happen. Because if ymiracles DID happen, you wouldn't have to write "COULD."
Science IS happening right before your eyes, OTC, and you close your eyes with all the force of a terrified animal.
OTC, the talking ass, wrote, "Yes, but you'll still die to your humanity and in eternity you only have the fullness of life if you're with God. You'll always exist but to exist apart from God is not life, it's Hell and Hell is spiritual death."
Where is your evidence to support that ridiculous statement? You can't provide any evidence for your imaginary friend, and you can't provide any evidence of your illusionary land beyond the grave. And the reason you can provide NO evidence of the reality of any of your nonsense is because it's all PRETEND!
You're a funny guy right now, but I fear for those around you when your fanaticism becomes fully mature.
A final thought for the night, OTC, since you are a RC, and seem to have gaps in your understanding of historical literature, which prevents you from making even the most basic connections and parallels.
ReplyDeleteHave you read "The Lord of The Rings", by John R. R. Tolkien?
Perhaps, rings and circles, have a common "shape", no? Maybe... Lord and God, could mean the same thing as well, no?
John R. R. Tolkien was a professor of literature at Oxford University. His scholarship was in Old and Middle English & he had a passion for "pagan mythology".
Yes, OTC, he wrote his "first" fantasy novel, The Hobbit, in 1937, and "The Lord of the Rings", in 1954-1955.
A few general "facts" about our Mr. Tolkien, OTC.
-He didn't accept the bible as the literal word of a God.
-He was drinking buddies with C.S. Lewis.
-He remained a devout RC, until his death.
OTC, how do you "regard" Tolkien, as a devout RC, who didn't accept the bible as infallible, and written by a God.
Do you believe that his scholarship (education) in literature; Pagan Mythology, etc., had anything to do with his "perspective" of the bible?
From Wikipedia: {[Tolkien] knew that his imaginative and spiritual roots were in the Ancient Church, and he was bewildered by the theological wreckers who would, as he put it, pull up a tree to discover its roots. No matter how scandalized, he reaffirmed his Faith in the Church and the Pope because they defended the Blessed Sacrament and kept it in its prime place as the center of our worship.}
ReplyDeleteThis man died with faith in the one true God. God bless his soul.
By the way, I never said that I believed that the bible should always be taken literally. With regards to the bible quote that was being defaced by this thread, I hope that it is now evident that the purpose of Jesus' words was to demonstrate the importance of following Him.
When it comes to reading the bible, the Word of God, there are three rules we might all want to follow; context, context, context. The cultural, social, economic, political and religious world throughout the bible must always be taken into consideration. In other words, the context and God's help will allow us to learn what He desires us to learn. To read the bible without any faith at all must be an effort in futility. I would imagine...
OTC
OTC said:
ReplyDelete"To read the bible without any faith at all must be an effort in futility.
I would imagine..."
----
Yes OTC, we all know that you can only "imagine" what it would be like to read that bible book, as the fiction it actually is.
I am a bit curious though, can you read the "Lord of the Rings" as a piece of fiction, or do you also have "faith" in that fictional world to?
If you do see it as the fiction it indeed is, then what method do you use to discern it as being a piece of fiction, but your bible as non-fictional work?
Is it because it's easy to know of this man Tolkien, who obviously wrote it as a piece of fiction and never tried to pretend otherwise?
What if Tolkien lived long-long ago and had said this strange world he wrote about, actually had existed at one time on Earth, and that god had shown him this ancient world, in great detail, in several visions or dreams.
What if many people started to believe in this fable world he created, and like so many urban legends come about, it eventually was forgotten that it was only a piece of fiction, and many now believed it was about actual characters, who had lived in such a nether-world.
What if this belief was now passed down through many human generations and folks built a religion around this fable. Folks who had so much 'faith' that this world had been real, that they rarely if ever questioned if it had actually existed or not.
What if that imaginary world took on a life of it's own, much as Atlantis has for a few die-hard believers today.
Would you OTC, be prudent enough to verify if such a world, and it's characters, actually had existed, or would you do like you do with your bible-world, and just ASSUME it must exists, because you wish it to?
ATF (Who thinks comedian Lewis Black is right, and that some xtians see the Flintstones Cartoon, as a documentary of human life with dinosaurs)
From Wikipedia: {[Tolkien] knew that his imaginative and spiritual roots were in the Ancient Church, and he was bewildered by the theological wreckers who would, as he put it, pull up a tree to discover its roots."
ReplyDeleteYes, nice quotes there OTC. Shall we dispense then, that Tolkien had no theology, because Christianity, I mean the RCC developed a "failed" theology from the beginning - as has been demonstrated multiple times on this thread alone.
His alliance with the RCC, was built on "cultural" foundations; not biblical. It appears, he had no problem with imagining whatever he wanted in order to find spirituality - just as the founding Roman Empire clergy, imaginatively created the New Testament portion of the bible, using a literary character to unite belief systems under one Religious Ruler, who served the Roman Emperor Constantine I.
Wiki: "No matter how scandalized, he reaffirmed his Faith in the Church and the Pope because they defended the Blessed Sacrament and kept it in its prime place as the center of our worship.}"
In short, he didn't believe the bible to be infallible, or written by a God character (take a hint here OTC). He imaginatively, believed in the "spirit" or "ideal" of a character named Christ, as voted upon by the early Roman church (RCC) - non-unanimously.
His allegiance, wasn't to a theology; but to a religious cult-ure, and tradition.
Truth was not what he cared about; worshipping his imagination and the imagination of those who established his blessed church, was what he cared about - "why" the clergy created the bible in such a way, meant less to him, than "how" they created the New Testament (imaginatively).
He enjoyed the imaginative celebration of the Blessed Sacrament.
"The Blessed Sacrament, or the Body and Blood of Christ, is a devotional name used in the Roman Catholic Church, Old Catholic and Anglican Churches, to refer to the Host and wine after they have been consecrated in the sacrament of the Eucharist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Sacrament
In this highly imaginative sacrament, the Host (the character Jesus' "flesh"), and wine (the character Jesus' "blood") are consumed by admirers and devotees.
The sacrament of the Eucharist is also noteworthy...
"The Eucharist not only commemorates the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ, but also makes it truly present. The priest and victim of the sacrifice are one and the same (Christ). The only difference is how the Eucharist is offered: in an unbloody manner.[20]"
In this tradition, we have RC clergy, role-playing the characters of God/Jesus, so they can "prepare" the Host/flesh and wine/blood to commemorate their martyred literary character Jesus, who symbolically prepared his own flesh and blood, to be consumed by those willing to accept him.
"The only minister of the Eucharist, that is, one authorized to celebrate the rite and consecrate the Eucharist, is a validly ordained priest (either bishop or presbyter) acting in the person of Christ (in persona Christi). In other words the priest celebrant represents Christ, who is the Head of the Church, and acts before God the Father in the name of the Church."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Sacrament
OTC, the traditions of the RCC, can not be found in the bible; they were imaginatively created by RC clergy, to... re-enforce catechisms, and selected beliefs, etc.
It doesn't matter that the Book of Revelation and the Gospels show the bible to be "fiction" - the RCC intends on focusing on their culture and traditions, based on the ideal of the literary figure of Christ; because, it's all about tradition and cult-ure, as least for Tolkien.
Perhaps, beliefs and traditions should be measured by the damage they have created or by the dangerous exposure to humanity, that such beliefs and traditions provide - are you willing to measure the traditions and beliefs of the RCC?
OTC: "This man died with faith in the one true God. God bless his soul."
Ah, well... this man died, declaring unto his last breath, that his "imagination"... was the key to his spirituality - uh, that includes how he perceived "his" god as well; imaginatively.
OTC: "By the way, I never said that I believed that the bible should always be taken literally."
Well, that's the point, isn't it OTC. You use words like; "should always", where "should" gives a person the option, making "always" a useless add-on.
The bible taken literally, declares itself to be fiction, or non-fictionally relevant.
In either case OTC, the bible is "used" by the RCC as well as other religious denominations to "imaginatively" create a particular "world view"; the world view, of the one who holds the religious authority.
OTC: "With regards to the bible quote that was being defaced by this thread, I hope that it is now evident that the purpose of Jesus' words was to demonstrate the importance of following Him."
Actually, OTC, what has been demonstrated, is the bible is fictional or non-fictionally relevant, based on The Gospels and The Book of Revelation.
That, the words within the bible, may in fact allude to "historical" influences and events, does not discount the biblical purpose of each "covenant" or "Testament".
That, the failure of both the Old Testament and New Testament prophesies, "confirm" its fictional status, or non-fictionally relevant nature.
OTC, the issue you are having at the moment, can be summed up succinctly; you have imagined an "idealized" vision of a literary character Jesus, and then, there are the "literal" words regarding the character Jesus in the bible - that "can" be taken literally, without "imaginative" license.
Want a more "literal" case of the non-compassion of the character Jesus of the bible?
How about, the character Jesus, "using" Judas as a tool for his own euthanasia; without "telling" him about his plans, leaving Judas to shoulder guilt and blame... the bible gives two accounts of Judas' death; one by accident, the other by suicide.
How about, the story of the adulteress; instead of the character Jesus standing up to protect the accused woman, he basically says; do what you will, hoping no one would actually stone her buttocks; he gambled with her life - immoral, rude, irresponsible, cowardly, etc. So, any man without sin cast the first stone... yeah, the character Jesus, should have been throwing stones like an automatic tennis ball thrower on high speed - unless he wasn't sinless himself.
Let the dead bury the dead... I don't care what context you give that, it shows no compassion... to suggest that it isn't really uncompassionate, because the statement was used to make a good illustration for his followers; is along the same lines, as applauding Fred Phelps' hate statements and public picketing at funerals where families are grieving..., because he is able to illustrate his imaginative vision to a wider and more attuned public arena.
OTC: "When it comes to reading the bible, the Word of God, there are three rules we might all want to follow; context, context, context. The cultural, social, economic, political and religious world throughout the bible must always be taken into consideration."
Sure, so how does "imagination" fit into that "context" schema?
OTC: "In other words, the context and God's help will allow us to learn what He desires us to learn."
Oh, so it's not "really" about context, as much as it is about tuning into our imaginations, and teasing out desired insights from the words, no matter what they "really" mean.
OTC: "To read the bible without any faith at all must be an effort in futility. I would imagine..."
To respect the words, as written in any book, requires no faith.
To conclude something far different than the words of a book offer requires faith, but disrespect as well.
Just one comment on Jesus's brother and sisters thinking He was unstable. They actually did think that. However, one of the brothers was James (there are 3 James' mentioned in NT). He eveentually became the leader of the Council of jerusalem and was pushed to hs death from the roof of the Temple for espousing the Gospel. I think he changed his mind.
ReplyDeleteAlways enjoy reading this site.
Dee