11/03/2006                                                                                       View Comments

Jesus...f*** you

By Ian

Hi Jesus.

Jet me start out by saying F*** you. Yeah, that's right. F*** you. F*** you uncle f***er. What the f***? you ask. Allow me to explain. After careful consideration and a lot of thinking, I have come to the conclusion that you, as presented in the Bible and your followers, are a f***er.

How so? Let's see. If people don't believe in you, you damn them to hell. Real nice and merciful. If you damn people to hell for not believing in you and thus harming your ego, then f*** you. If you damn people to hell for following Christianity, then f*** you. If you're going to damn ME for being a freethinker and a humanist, then you're a really psychotic son of God.

Want to change your image Jesus? How about starting off by getting rid of all your spokespersons. Why not start with Billy Graham? He's a big motherf***er. I mean come on, wrinkly as a prune, thinks Satan is out to ruin the world, threatens us with hell if we don't believe, runs a big evangelical empire, etc. He's an old fart who frankly, is an asshole. Along with all the other fire and brimstone preachers who are more then happy to believe that Hindu and Chinese children who never heard of Jesus will go to hell. He's so goddamn sure of himself and your stupid religion that it really pisses me off. He keeps saying "Come to Jesus. Come to Jesus. Come to Jesus."

Actually, that reminds me. I've come to you Jesus. Twice now. I lapsed a few days ago, unable to take the pressure, anxiety, uncertainty (which you caused by the way) of not following you. So I lapsed. Yes, I lapsed back into following you. But now, I can clearly see that you are an asshole who will damn everyone who is not a Christian to hell at the end of time. If that's who you are Jesus, then I want nothing to do with you.

You and your sayings have caused me nothing but misery, anxiety, depression, fear, terror, and sadness. You truly are a divider. You make some people ecstatically happy while making others (me) truly depressed and full of fear because we don't believe in you. Of course, you didn't really give much of a choice for those who want to think for themselves. Believe in me, or you will be damned. Wow. Mighty fine choices you gave us.

After Billy Graham, why not Greg Laurie? Then go after those nut-jobs who wrote the Left Behind series! The next generation of spreading fear and terror in Christ's name! Amen brother!

Say, that reminds me of another amusing anecdote. Your dad's book (which is a piece of boring shit) says that those who don't believe in the message of the cross are unsaved and wicked. Well whoop-dee-do. Big surprise there. After all, the idea that you covered all of humanity's sins for all time by dying on a cross sounds nice. But to free thinkers and those who like personal responsibility and getting what you earn, it sounds stupid. To get into heaven, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and accept him as lord. Sounds simple. But everyone who doesn't do that goes to hell. Doesn't matter how nice you are, doesn't matter how good, friendly, kind, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent you are, you're still going to hell. While as a believer in Jesus, you can do pretty much do anything. Why? Because Christians are forgiven! (Speaking of which, can you do me a favor and damn that insensitive asshole who came up with that bumper sticker "Christians aren't different, we're just forgiven."? That sticker really pisses me off).

In this system, personal conduct and responsibility mean nothing. People, even the most scum-ridden filth, can go to heaven simply by accepting a gift. Shouldn't heaven be based on, oh I don't know, personal conduct? Isn't the most fair type of system the one that gives people what they earn? In a perfect afterlife system, people would go to where they fit in, with religion having nothing to do with it. Of course, according to the yawn inducing gospel, that's not how it goes. It all has to do with faith and belief.

I, with my own intellect, am for people getting what they earn. Of course, because I'm not a believer, I'm wicked and evil. My sinful tendencies are driving me to get along with others, make other people happy, peacefully co-exist with others and make the world a better place. Hmm...I think I'll follow my sinful tendencies!

Basically Jesus, it boils down to this: Having you in my life has caused nothing but misery and sorrow. When you were out of my life, before I came to Christianity, I was a lot happier. When I left Christianity, I was a lot happier. Whenever you come into my life, along with that religion of yours, my happiness and well-being plunged. You are supposed to be the Great Shepherd. Well, you threaten your sheep and terrify them into following you mindlessly. The sheep that thinks for itself and tries to improve itself as an individual is the one that is cast out of the flock to be torn to shreds by ravenous wolves. The sheep that dares to think the other sheep can be nice and are good at heart is the one that is chucked into the harsh wilderness to wander forever.

I'm the sheep that thinks for itself. But to you and God, the devil and demons, I'm just currency. I'm a piece on the chessboard that's up for grabs. Nobody gives a shit what I want, what I think, and what I believe. All that matters is getting this piece. God apparently wants me to worship Him and do His will (getting others to do His will, repeat to infinity), while Satan wants to torture me and cut me off from God for all eternity. And I, as the piece on the chessboard, have virtually no say in the matter. Both choices seem pretty bad, but at least with Satan I would be away from those f***ing evangelicals (the real bogeymen of lore) and fundamentalists (a cancer that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth). Amen to that!

I'm the sheep that thinks for itself. You may be a shepherd, but you intimidate, threaten, and use fear to keep us in line instead of love. I want nothing to do with you anymore. I would rather focus on God and not on you because frankly, You (along with your agents) have made my life hell. You're not an individual I would want to be associated with, and you're a despicable being if you're going to damn billions to hell because they don't believe in you. Hitler and Stalin may have killed and tortured, but at least the suffering for their victims came to an end. Your victims will be tortured forever and ever without end. You, dear sir, are evil. If you are the son of God, then your father must be even more insane and cruel then you are.

You caused me nothing but misery. You threaten, intimidate, and apparently damn people to hell. You are a negative part of my life. Unlike all the big name people in the world who proclaim you as a master and a teacher who taught love (Hahahahahah), I actually looked at you in the Bible. Almost all of your teachings are shockingly mean, and you damn people who don't believe in you.

You sir, are disgusting and you sir, are someone I don't respect at all. If you are going to damn me for not believing in you and for believing in the power of love and kindness, then f*** you. Of course, according to the bible, I'm already damned. You're going to send me to hell saying that you never knew me. All my achievements, all of my accomplishments are worth shit. My life is shit. I am, according to you and your Nazg├╗l (John and the apostles), shit.

And that, Jesus, is why I say...f*** you.

203 comments:

1 – 200 of 203   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Sounds like it was about time you stopped blaming your own inadequacies and put the blame where it belongs.

Well done! And welcome. And keep saying f-you until you don't need to any more!

Valerie

Anonymous said...

You would never express such anger at Santa Claus, because why be angry with an imaginary being?

You're pissed at a figment.

Anonymous said...

yeah, but it's a figment that can ruin lives and people's way of thinking.

David90212 said...

I think he isn't pissed at a figment because he is pissed at JC, the first Holy Roller.

It is the fact that JC is so f-cking better then you (at least in his mind!!), and gets his rocks off by torture though fire - even burning kids. Now that is one seiously sick f-ck!

But it is my guess that the assholes back in the Council of Trent (See Catholic BS) who started the worst parts of the Christian faith.

Now I am seriously pissed at the people who walk around thinking they are better (the Christians) and who are so stupid that they can't see the forest through the trees such as passing off 6,000 year old Earth as science! Goddamn, how STUPID can they be!

Anonymous said...

Try Islam. Allah loves you.

Harlequin said...

Whoa! Allah loves NO-ONE... Same chap as Yahweh, just in a party frock in Mecca... ;)

As to Ian's post... I've never seen Uncle fucker used in anger before, only on South Park... and he has a valid point. Jesus' followers tend to try and sell this creature that is a psychotic, inadequate monster, who'll torture you forever 'because he loves you' I took it as heavy irony, rather than Ian taking the Jesus meme overly seriously any more... But I could just be a senile old fool :)

Love and hugs

Grandpa Harley

Bentley said...

The Original Sin Was Created By The Bible God First!

The original sin was when the Bible God whom suppossedly created all things, also created and allowed an Evil Being to exist, long before Adam and Eve ever existed, this god knew all along what he was dealing with and just what he had created. ref: Isaiah 47:7. If this God is in full control, then it would have been such an easy task to expel and dispose of this evil being.


It's all man-made bullshit invented long before the Jesus scam!

Elder Norm said...

Hmmmmm, they say, vent, let out your anger. Then sit down to think it thru.

" I read a book and now I am mad at the book." I don't think the book did anything bad, It is just a collection of words.

Maybe its the people that pushed the book, that used social pressure to make people conform to the rules in the book with out thinking.

Just a thought.
Elder Norm

D Laurier said...

Take a prozac and get on with life.

freedy said...

This is a little misdirected,although understandable.

It's messengers and teachers of the babble "I'M MAD AT,...FOR THEY'RE REAL!"

These liars(preachers)make a good living off the Bile-bull, and are the ones that we should direct this righteous anger towards.*peace
to you Ian!

Hellbound Alleee said...

So much for the commenters and their ability to understand narrative and suspension of disbelief. I think you guys missed his point entirely. Especially the christian/christians, who responded. But I forgive you because you actually think the world is a cartoon.


Jesus, the character (which is obviously pointed out in the essay) is an asshole. I totally agree.

freedy said...

Good point,...Allee.I guess the shock value of the language present caused some of us to miss the point,...my bad.

Pennsylvania Agnostic said...

Wait. Jesus and "God" aren't necessarily the villains. It's possible only the people ("Christians", "Jews", "Muslims", etc.) who followed after are the problem.

-- I'll leave "God" out of this since I'm not sure some entity referred to as such in the Bible even exists anywhere. --

Jesus wasn't necessarily good or bad. I'm not even sure how much of what Jesus said was falsified by the people who wrote the Bible, but when I read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) ignoring religious superstitions and looking for symbolism, I see a philosophy emerge that makes some sense:

Existence is full of both pain and pleasure. All beings desire to avoid pain, but the balance of things insists that focusing on pleasure in the short term will ultimately lead to pain in the long term and vice versa. ("He who exalts himself will be humbled. He who humbles himself will be exalted.")

Some pain is unavoidable but made worse through greed and better through selflessness. The less one has, the less one has to loose. ("He who saves his life will lose it. He who loses his life will save it.")

The state of being controlled by pain is symbolized by "Satan" and "hell". The state of transcending pain is symbolic of "God" and "heaven". Each being chooses its own path. ("What good is it a man gains the world but loses his soul?")

The meaning of existence is change. Every so often the change amasses to a great swell. The world reaches a point of near collapse and it seems that all is lost, but soon the next world will emerge, and the cycle will start again. Those who know this have less to fear and can enjoy the process more. (I don't remember any end-of-the-world quotes off the top of my head.)

As I've said in other posts, I don't disagree with Christianity entirely. I only think it's a theory that needs revision.

freedy said...

After carefully studying your essay,I totally agree with all of it.(I just skimmed thru the first time,...sorry).
I would like to add that the(dumb,dumb,dumb,dumb,dumb)sheeple who support these psychotic bible nuts are keeping this sh*t alive.
F***in morons!!!Wake up!

Lorena said...

Well, yeah, the damned messengers:

Greg Laury, David Jeremiah, Chuck Swindoll, James Dobson, Joel Osteen, Hank Hanegraaff, Rick Warren, Dennis Rayney, and all the others.

F*** them all. I wonder how many of them are gay or are sleeping with members of the congregation. You do have to wonder.

Hope you are feeling better after writing the essay, Ian.

blaine said...

Hi Ian,
I am a gay Christian who is excommunicated by his church but I believe in a God who loves me unconditionally. There are billions of stars in our galaxy alone called the "Milky Way" and there are over a billion galaxies, each containing billions of stars in a limitless space. And near the outer edge of our galaxy is a rather insignificant planet named Earth and on this planet lives Ian and everyone here, and God says each of us is significant and of great value and worth. I once shared these words with a gay 12 year old who was going to kill himself. He was brought to me by his friend. We also had a wonderful time bowling and eating at the Enlisted Men's Chow Hall. A year later we all were eating at McDonalds and I was going to say prayers when I felt something check me. I asked if anyone would like to say prayers. The one time suicidal youth said, "I will" and he proceeded to thank God for our food and for being alive. It was all I could do to not cry.
The Bible and Christians have distorted much of the nature of God; His love, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, justice and holiness. Hell was invented by man to torment others to their religious bondage. Some say "God's justice demands eternal punishment in a Lake of Fire"; however that teaching is cruel, ungodly and also justice absent of love and forgiveness is revenge. I wrote this concerning the Bible, of which many parts, were corrupted by the hand of man to justify their killings, murders, kidnapping, rape, land stealing and thus betrayed the heart of God.
I cannot believe in any writings which lessen the dignity of mankind and speaks more of his depravation, wickedness and worthlessness than of his beauty, grandeur and value. I cannot believe in a God who says we were created in His image and likeness and then that same God sends His image and likeness to a fiery hell for not thinking like He does when we thought we were serving Him as he desired. How can I unquestionably accept the Bible when it lessens the majesty of a loving God and looks upon His finest creation as better dead than Bible fed.
Ian, my friend, I know that we are loved by God. I also hate religion and the misery it has caused, but for whatever reason I do believe in God even though I don't understand all the suffering in the world. I had a very violent childhood and more of my story is at MY Space under sloopy312@comcast.net.
I have written this long-winded letter because I feel your pain, confusion and desperation. I have no desire to convert you to anything but I want you to know that I care and will listen.
Love,
blaine

Lorena said...

Blaine says:
"God says each of us is significant and of great value and worth"

Lorena responds:
Blaine, I don't need God's opinion on my worth. I am quite aware of it. I am sorry that you and the 12-year old need outside help to feel strong and worthy. It is quite sad, actually.

Ian said...

It felt damn good writting this. don't regret it because that's how I feel. Venting anger is very, very healing.

And we definitly need more christians like Blaine. His words are far more powerful then any fundamentalists. I work at a public library, and his definition of God and Justice is far better then 95% of the books written on the subject.

Anonymous said...

Ian,

I'm sure it felt good letting that out. When I read the Psalms I see those same types of honest, raw prayers to God in there.

I don't think your rant hurt God, or offended him like it would the Christians who make him to be what they want him to be.

I think he cares, is concerned, and wants what is best for you. But, that's what I think.

I felt in reading your honest expression of frustration that your frustration was vented toward a false God.

I don't see the Jesus you told off in the Scriptures.

The Jesus you gave the finger to I wouldn't follow.

Jesus seems to be proof that God cares, wants us to know him and be known by him, and be what we were meant to be.

I think your views of the things you ranted against come from false teachings on the Bible. I have been a pastor for five years, and have been studying the Bible for over a decade, and I don't see what you see.

In fact, I hate the teachings that you are ranting against. I'm with you. I think God is as well.

What I do find interesting is that you hate that Jesus would condemn people for not believing in him, but you tell him to "f___ off". How is that any different.

It seems you are becoming the disciple of the God you hate.

Maybe instead of falling back to following him a third time you should walk away for good and follow Jesus as you find him the Bible, minus the false teachings you have received and that have hurt you.

Jesus said, "I come to bring life and life more abundant." If you haven't found that in following Jesus, then I would think you were following the wrong guy...

blaine said...

Lorena responds:
Blaine, I don't need God's opinion on my worth. I am quite aware of it. I am sorry that you and the 12-year old need outside help to feel strong and worthy. It is quite sad, actually.

Blaine: Hi Lorena. I have survived alot of brutality and even slept in the woods behind our house during summer break from the 4th grade thru the 8th grade. I grew up tough, fearless and independent. I had to in order to survive and in the military I was part of a special combat unit that even more increased my sense of invincibility. But when I look back I have something today that has empowered me even more. In 1971 I gave my heart to Jesus and my past, which could have destroyed me or hurt others, became a vehicle to help many. I was safe in the hoods of the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords and Latin Kings. Also the Mafia, where a chieftain offered me his houseboat as a gift [I did not accept it] because of how I helped his son or the Syndicate which offered me a six figured income job [which I refused] trusted me and my confidentiality. I could cross hood boundary lines and be completely safe day or night in some of the nations most dangerous cities. I walked into the middle of gang fights and saved a few lives. I was allowed to prevent several youth and some adults from committing suicide. I almost took my own life at one time.
Yes, I do at times need help and acceptance from others. I am no longer an island unto myself and I believe, know, that some kids and adults are alive today because I recognized my own vulnerability and thus I was able to relate to theirs because I was talking to them from my heart and life experience and not from a textbook. I hate to loose a friend and I cry at the suffering of others; but I also know that there is something beyond my own strength that has given me much to rejoice about and has saved many lives because of my message that God says you are significant and of great value.
I have humbled myself enough to know that I don't have all the answers and that sometimes I need a helping hand. I am glad that I recognized this about myself because that 12 year old youth is alive today.
Thanks for listening Lorena and my friends here.
blaine

blaine said...

I am humbled by your comments Ian. I might add that I have kicked my Bible like a football. I've had knock-down drag-out arguments and fights with God and called Him and Jesus names as you have, I even shot Him with a double barrel shotgun pulling both triggers at once, especially when I felt like He was screwing with my kids [who are of all ages].
Even though I rant and rave and many fundamental Christians say I will burn in hell because I am gay, I know that I am safe whether I live or die because I, like you and all here, will not be damned by the One who rejoiced the day we were born.
Later my friend.
blaine

Ian said...

Tobias, Jesus says in John 15:6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In other words, if I don't believe in Jesus, i'm going to be cast away into hell to be burned. And because Jesus says that hell lasts for all eternity, i'm doomed. Considering how he talks about how hell is eternal at other places in the bible, then i'm pretty much fucked according to him. Not the nicest fellow if that's true.

Harlequin said...

@Ian's last post...

TBH, we really have no idea what that means... there's a lot of exegesis telling us what it means, but bear in mind, we have a text that wend from being an Aramaic oral tradition into a Greek translation copied by amateurs until Nicea in the AD 400s, then translated to Latin then into English. Going back to the Greek, bearing in mind the transmission post oral, is unreliable, and in a language that is as similar to Aramaic as it is Mayan...

Aramaic is a language of numerous layers of meaning, thus the exegesis of a translation of a translation of a translation takes one possible meaning and makes it a fixed rule... which is bollocks.

Love and hugs

Grandpa H

Lorena said...

Blaine:
"In 1971 I gave my heart to Jesus and my past, which could have destroyed me or hurt others, became a vehicle to help many."

Lorena:
I am glad the religion works for you, Ian. It didn't work for me, so I ditched it.

Your religion made me hateful and judgemental. I don't want to be that way.

Again, I am sorry that you need Jesus to be compelled to do good works toward your fellow humans. That attitude shuld be natural. Many people do help others without the need for Jesus, Blaine.

But again, we should all do what works for us. For me Jesus is a myth , the illusion of which did nothing for my life.

If the illusion of Jesus helps you, by all means, stick with it. But understand that other people find in other deities what you found in Jesus. So your experience isn't unique.

H. R. said...

...eh, yawn.

Pennsylvania Agnostic said...

Before this page falls into history, the use of language got my attention. It reminded me of this song I saw on iTunes one day, "F*****g F*****g F**k", by some band named Splatpattern. The word "fuck" is awesome.

Pennsylvania Agnostic said...

Here's what I said earlier with an analogy. "God" does not damn anyone to hell any more than gravity kills a suicide jumper. "God" is the idiot's version of "good". There is no person "God", and anyone who claims to be such is a liar (friend or foe I'm not sure). "God" is at best a set of forces in nature the understanding of which can only be approached asymptotically and never reached.

I hate Christians for making me think any differently than this when I was younger (and it isn't a petty grudge because they continue to try to make me think their way today).

CyborgX said...

No doubt you're pissed off. But Jesus wasn't the one that actually caused any of this, believe it or not. Just like if it were people believing in Santa Claus you'd blame Santa if you got no gifts on Christmas becuase you weren't Christian?

I'm not trying to be mean but the one(s) you should be angry with isn't Jesus, Santa, God, whatever, but instead the *believers* that told you all this. Think about it. Did you hear any disembodied voice tell you that the Bible words are true? Did you actually meet Jesus in person, see him and hear him say these things to you? Bet nobody has, at least not in THIS generation.

What you heard was words of other *people* who told you these things. What you read was a book written by *people* who claimed to have heard/saw things that now historians are doubting even happened, or that may have been based on myths from way before the proported birth of Jesus.

Unless you heard these things directly from a Jesus or a God themselves, don't blame those you never seen or met or heard them say these things.

The anger should be directed at all the people who were using psychology to get into your head and make you a part of their little world so they have others to share their beliefs with, so they wouldn't be alone. So they don't have to think.

And just like any other people you don't like in the world, simply stay away from them.

Emotional abuse is hard to get over, however, be it from family or other folks you hung out with for a long time. They screwed with your head. You might feel like you were weak for believing what they said. But you're not.

You saw what they were doing to you and you got away from them.

Now stay away from them. Stay away from those that tick you off. Keep company of those you enjoy being with. And now you know not to believe things unless you have proof. You learned. It'll make you stronger.

Anonymous said...

I definately feel you Ian, its kinda funny cause you said everything thats on my mind. I decided to find jesus and became a christian about a year and half ago and was blinded by the light and thought i had found god. i always called myself a christian up to that point but i didnt really know what christianity was all about. the more i found out about what christianity stands for the more i hated it, which was a good thing for me because i couldnt stand living like i was with all the guilt, anxiety, the way it makes you look at other people, i felt chained down and i was feeling guilty just for being myself, it was ridiculous, i felt guilty for staring at girls asses and wanting to hop in the sheets with em. i almost threw all of my cds away because that bullshit started making me think 2pac and everything i listen to was so called devil music, it changed my entire view of the world and the people in it and it was the ugliest shit ive ever seen. the way i look at is i had to find out the truth about god some day and see how truly evil it all is, its made me realize how beautiful reality is, thinking for myself and looking at the world and everyone it in the right way, also i realized that i was living life right all along before i tried finding god, by being myself.

its funny how the 2 biggest religions in the world islam and christianity both call each other the devil, look at all the people who have died in the past and still today because of what those books say, but yet people say god is good and dont see the evil in it.jesus and allah are both 100 times worse than bin laden cause they preach some good which tricks peoples minds into ignoring the evil shit they say and stand for. what if bin laden preached dont murder and dont lie and all that shit, does that make him a good man? u see what im saying.

im happy for u dude that u see through that cult, as far as other christians on here saying u shouldnt be mad at it, they obviously still have thier blinders on and are blinded by the light, theyll find out 1 day, when jesus never shows up or unfortunately if thier is another crusade in the name of these so called gods that love us so much.

stay up ian, stay true 2 yourself and live everyday 2 the fullest man, life is what u make it.

-Tim

Anonymous said...

Ian,

I hope you are able to work through all this and get real peace inside yourself soon (know Jesus = no peace - that should be a bumper sticker, lol). The whole bible mess & characters are based on myth. I encourage you to read websites on that. If you need spirituality, I encourage you to read more on it, but without religion, which is a mind, body & soul "killer". You can get through this ordeal. Just replace the thoughts of xianity, bible and Jesus & co. with something positive and true. Over time, the habit will stick. Just think, in some other country there are probably former xxxianists (insert any religion here) who are mad at what was pulled over their eyes, and also trying to rid themselves of the mental baggage and mind-fuxxxxx they took over religion. You aren't alone. Others have come through and you will too. Peace!

Anonymous said...

You, know...
I've been burned by the religion crap, too, saying I believed in things only to find out I only wanted to believe these things. When I was able to see what I really believed, it was cool. Thing is, what I really believed is that despite my fake faith, it still seemed at least possible that God could be real. That those experiences I had 15 years ago were more than just delusions or wishful thinking. Come on, poster. Get some balls. The church helped you believe the worst about yourself. Get over it. Leave the church. But blaming Jesus because of your own shit, I mean if he isn't real, where did all your problems come from? Get a grip, take a breath,and when you get a sense of security about what you really believe take another look with some courage. If it isn't real, whatcha got to lose at one more time at seeing if He is more real than the fakers say he is. Otherwise, mope and bitch, play the victim of someone elses misunderstandings. Take a chance,man.

Anonymous said...

ian,
if your landlord said that he was taking over his house sometime soon and all that want to stay with him are welcome as long as they ask, those who want nothing to do with the landlord will have to leave, what kind of friggin idiot blames the landlord for the ensuing homelessness when he told the tennants well ahead of time what they needed to do to stay. I mean, even if the story is false, at least get it straight.

Anonymous said...

You know what Ian, I apologize. I wrote that last two comments more in frustration than anything. If your really pissed, it just drives me nuts that the wrong guy might be getting the blame, especially if it is someone who might want to help. I hope things go better. But if you are just a hater looking for something to hate, well ... good luck with that.

Anonymous said...

lorena,

just found your last comment. I think your insecurities made you judgemental. Part of the reason people flock to the religion is to fill the void, find a set of rules to live by and find some security. Own it first, then you might be on the way to being free, or you can continue to be judgemental under the guise of "exchristian enlightenment".

Anonymous said...

The God that you are describing is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible made the first man and woman perfect beings. They chose to disobey God and through this choice sin entered the world. The Bible tells us that the wage of sin is death and since everyone one of us is a sinner (Christian and non-Christian alike) we should all be sent to hell. Out of compassion for us, God sent us his only begotten Son to pay for our sins so that we wouldn't have to be destined for hell. Out of love our perfect Creator came here and was brutalized as payment for our sins. All that He asks in return is that you repent from your sins and believe in Jesus.

God is not the monster you’ve construed him to be in your mind. He is compassionate, understanding, merciful, just, and slow to anger. I don’t know what’s going on in your life – that’s between you and God – but there’s nothing so awful that you’ve done that He won’t forgive you for if you ask Him sincerely. Jesus came here in human form and was tempted by all of the same things you and I are tempted with - He understands the human condition and our weaknesses. Call to Him – not with rage but as a humble creation of His. He will hear you. Ask him to open your ears to the truth of His word.

One last piece of advice, try to forget the things you’ve heard preachers say. I’m not implying that their message was bad or wrong but you must start with a clean slate. Read the Gospel of John, slowly, with the viewpoint that the words you are reading are what your creator is revealing about Himself to mankind.

Hang in there. You sound like a tormented person but I can assure you that there is no one that is unreachable. God will forgive you but you must be patient and approach Him humbly.

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous fundie who posted at 10:03 PM on 11/6/06 apparently came to the website and thought” Gee, these people have NEVER read the bible! Here’s my chance to evangelize and win some brownie points with god and jeebus” by spewing out all the dust covered, same-old-shit arguments that have won people over for centuries. Nice going Anony-jerk, we all love the original thinking you displayed.

Ian said...

This article was written in frustration. I try really hard not to hate, but sometimes it does become too much, seeing what this world is coming too if it keeps going in certian ways. My life, after leaving religion, keeps bouncing up and down between great and happy, and depressed and angry. But the nice thing is that when i'm in a down mood, I will go back up.

But I still do not approve of the idea that all those who don't believe in Jesus will be thrown into hell forever. I would think that God is more interested in charachter and personal conduct then belief. We, as humans, value action over saying what we're going to do. A perfect God should, presumably (if it exists in the first place, which I believe sie does), be like the same. Action over belief.

Anonymous said...

warnepiece,
I'm the fundie you referenced. No, I didn't post thinking you and the others here had not read the Bible. It's clear you have. I don't understand the hate you have for God but I think that it stems from some sort of conflict you have - otherwise you would not be so vociferous on the subject. People believe all sorts of things that I don't agree with but I don't slam them all as morons and try to convince them and others that they are wrong. If I'm convinced I'm right then it really doesn't matter what their opinions are. A simple analogy is this - if you tell me "2 + 2 = 5", I'll say "No, it equals 4" and leave it at that. I have no reason to try to convince you that the answer is 4... I'm confident it is...and if you choose to believe that it's 5 then it is your issue to deal with.

Believe it or not, the reason that I posted is because I have concern for you and everyone here that has posted comments about how much they hate Jesus Christ. He is mankinds only hope for salvation. Our lives here on earth are very short. Eternity is forever. I don't want to see anyone tormented in both this life and eternity. Our creator has revealed Himself to us through the Bible. He’s showed us the path to Heaven. I have peace knowing that when I die I am going to a place that God has prepared for me. I want the same for you and the others here. How is it that you can hate me for wanting what is good for you? If I’m believing a “fairy tale,” how does that harm you? Why are you so angry?

freeman said...

fundie,

I think you have is wrong! WE say 2+2=4, it is christians who say 2+2=5! Please get your facts straight!


"I don't understand the hate you have for God..."

We do not hate that which does not exist!


"If I’m believing a “fairy tale,” how does that harm you? Why are you so angry?"

We are angry with anyone who tries to force their "fairy tale" on us! You know that you do whenever you vote for some stupid christian value like baning gay marriage! What harm does that do to you? If marriage is "god's bond" between a man and a woman, then first the government should not regulate it, second, please work to outlaw divorce! Oh that is right, divorce is a-ok to you christians. Pick and choose what you want to believe in and discard the rest!

And no I am not gay, but have gay relatives and friends!

Warnepiece said...

For starters Anonymous, why don’t you use a name? Using Anonymous indicates to us you are a coward. Does that mean I am angry because you are a coward? No!
In your very first sentence of the original post, you wrote “The God that you are describing is not the God of the Bible.” Explain these:
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)
"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezekiel 9:4-6)
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

Now, either you are reading a different bible than any of the Ex-Christians here, or you blew in here assuming we’ve only read bits and pieces, whereas YOU have read it all and therefore just KNEW it couldn’t be the same god. Is the above the same god as in the bible Anonymous? Please enlighten us…

“God of the bible made the first man and woman perfect…and they chose to disobey?”

How could they “choose” to disobey when they had no idea of the concept of right and wrong until AFTER they ate of the fruit? If you were blind from birth, how would you describe the color green?

I was going to reply to the rest of your post, but Freeman summed it all up very nicely.

Again, thanks for that original thinking. We need a good laugh now and then. Does that mean we’re all angry? Hmmmmmmm…….

Anonymous said...

lfasffreeman,
As a citizen of the U.S. I’ve been afforded the right to vote for politicians that represent my values. There are laws that I agree with and laws that I disagree with.

Ian started this thread with a 1400 hundred word essay to Jesus on how much he hates Jesus. That implies that Ian believes that Jesus exists.

Have you pondered how the elements that make up what we see around us even exist? Scientists tell us that all matter was contained in a super massive ball that exploded. But where did that matter come from? How did it get there to begin with? How long was it there? And what forces made it finally explode? And when life was formed on earth – scientists tell us that plants and animals were all created by some random natural event that took place (which, by the way, doesn’t even fit the criteria of a theory). My point is that what you believe is every bit as much “faith” as is my belief that the designer of what I see around me has chosen to reveal himself to us through the Holy Bible. I believe in life after death – and I believe that there are two paths – one that leads to everlasting life and one that leads to everlasting damnation. Are you so confident in your faith that you are willing to risk an eternity in hell? Can you not just humbly say a prayer that God open your mind to the truth?

Warnepiece said...

Proof, Anonymous...PROOF, PROOF, PROOF. Without pointing to your bible, what kind of PROOF can you offer? The burden is on you. All you have to offer in your post is "I believe". Great! I believe I'll have another beer! Oh and BTW, saying a prayer will get you, and us...jack!

freeman said...

fundy

"As a citizen of the U.S. I’ve been afforded the right to vote for politicians that represent my values. There are laws that I agree with and laws that I disagree with."

Yes, but when you and those you voted for pass laws according to the bible, you become un-American and Pro-Iranian! So much for a secular government! You choose to squash minority rights! This country's government is a Republic not Democracy to protect minorities!

Ian started this thread with a 1400 hundred word essay to Jesus on how much he hates Jesus. That implies that Ian believes that Jesus exists.

My string was to YOUR REPLY TO WARNEPIECE, not Ian's. Jesus is imaginary! From what I read in Ian's piece was a tounge in cheek essay and he no longer believes in the boggie man. Ian, please correct me if I am wrong.

Have you pondered how the elements that make up what we see around us even exist? Scientists tell us that all matter was contained in a super massive ball that exploded.

Exactly, the BIG BANG!

But where did that matter come from? How did it get there to begin with? How long was it there?

Matter is neither created nor destroyed! Please study physics!

And what forces made it finally explode?

As Potiential Energy reaches 100%, it will begin to move toward Actual Enery naturally. And visa versa. Explosion followed by Implosion over and over and over...

And when life was formed on earth – scientists tell us that plants and animals were all created by some random natural event that took place (which, by the way, doesn’t even fit the criteria of a theory).

On who's authority do you say that evolution does not meet the criteria of a theory! You have just proved that you have very little intellect!

My point is that what you believe is every bit as much “faith” as is my belief that the designer of what I see around me has chosen to reveal himself to us through the Holy Bible.

That is the standard BULLSHIT that EVERY christian claims! Science is grounded in discovery of facts not faith. There is zero evidence for jesus and your god outside the bible!

I believe in life after death – and I believe that there are two paths – one that leads to everlasting life and one that leads to everlasting damnation. Are you so confident in your faith that you are willing to risk an eternity in hell? Can you not just humbly say a prayer that God open your mind to the truth?

Nothing fails like prayer!

11/07/2006 12:56 PM

Anonymous said...

warnepiece,
I don't pretend to understand the Bible in it's entirety. The complexity of the Bible emphasizes to me that it was penned by man but inspired by God. There are many passages that I don’t understand and I don’t suppose I ever will unless God has reason to reveal them to me. I believe that events like you pointed out really did happen but the stories are also an allegory that point to Jesus Christ and the judgment of mankind. Fortunately, you and I live in a time where there is a new covenant between God and man and that is one of grace through Jesus Christ. Through faith in Jesus Christ our sins debt is paid in full. It almost seems too common to repeat but God tells us “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – that’s the love of God that I was mentioning.

As for being anonymous - I'll get an account soon. I just really hate giving out my e-mail address unless I know I'm going to post at a site more than a few times. Eventually everyone here will probably run me out of town :)

.:webmaster:. said...

As a citizen of the U.S. I’ve been afforded the right to vote for politicians that represent my values. There are laws that I agree with and laws that I disagree with.

Can't fault that statement.

Ian started this thread with a 1400 hundred word essay to Jesus on how much he hates Jesus. That implies that Ian believes that Jesus exists.

I can see where you might jump to that conclusion, but Ian is a talented writer. It is more than a little likely that he is simply using a literary device to illustrate his points.

Have you pondered how the elements that make up what we see around us even exist?

Yes, everyone does that.

Scientists tell us...

So, is your point that scientists are wrong, evil, stupid, or possessed by the devil? Do you also cast aspersions on medical scientists, engineering scientists, archeological scientists, etc., or does your distrust of science only extend into those areas that seem to contradict your particular denominations interpretation of the Bible?

Have you read even one scientific book explaining the theories you denigrate? Please don’t quote some scientifically ignorant Christian apologist.

Can’t you just…?

Can’t you just realize that gods; demons; angels; talking snakes; floating, square cities; flying, fiery chariots; talking donkeys; satyrs; dragons; world-wide floods; evil apples; and flying, un-dead god-men, are all the stuff of myth?

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous,

*Sigh*

You never needed to register. If you would take the one or two seconds to click the "Other" button and type in a pseudonym, your posts wouldn't be labled as "anonymous."

*Sigh*

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous said “I don't pretend to understand the Bible in it's entirety. The complexity of the Bible emphasizes to me that it was penned by man but inspired by God.”

Say what? The messenger is wrong, but the message is right. Wow, talk about suspension of logic!

Anonymous: “There are many passages that I don’t understand and I don’t suppose I ever will unless God has reason to reveal them to me. I believe that events like you pointed out really did happen but the stories are also an allegory that point to Jesus Christ and the judgment of mankind.”

Why haven’t you prayed to god to reveal it to you? Isn’t that part of what you do with prayer? Yep, those events happened. And guess who did them? Jesus…who is just god in human skin. So that same savior endorsed killing, rape, pillage, theft, slavery…but he loves us and wants to save us! Please!!!

Anonymous: “Fortunately, you and I live in a time where there is a new covenant between God and man and that is one of grace through Jesus Christ. Through faith in Jesus Christ our sins debt is paid in full. It almost seems too common to repeat but God tells us “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – that’s the love of God that I was mentioning.”

Yep, that God of love. Jesus, who is the very same being (if you buy into the 3-in-1nonsense) as the sadistic beast in the old testament! Sorry, a killing god doesn’t turn around and say, “Whoops, my bad. Here, let me put on some human skin and committed assisted suicide (because he knew what was coming and went along with the program) in order to save you from a rule I set up.”

Anonymous: “As for being anonymous - I'll get an account soon. I just really hate giving out my e-mail address unless I know I'm going to post at a site more than a few times. Eventually everyone here will probably run me out of town :)”

NO!...REALLY? With god on your side?
In my opinion Anonymous = coward.

ken hood said...

OK Ian calm down son (whoo!language!)Just consider.The smartest man who ever lived Isaac Newton took the same Bible others see 'mistakes' in % concluded it held the key to human history & wrote a million words about it.Also who told you God scares you into submision ? 'Come .. & I will give you rest'-Jesus youre obviously not at rest so something's cockeyed .Dont you realise God loves every mothers kid of us & plans to save us all eventually eg 1 tim 4:10

JT (Oh why do I fuckin Bother) said...

Anonymous said "I don't pretend to understand the Bible in it's entirety. The complexity of the Bible emphasizes to me that it was penned by man but inspired by God".

Are you fuckin kiddin me? The old testament is filled with stories of fathers fuckin their daughters and brothers sleeping with sisters and babies being sacrificed and lambs being killed and people fuckin animals. Women being killed and treated like shit. Sounds like some west virginia fuck flick. Shit is fuckin insane!

Even in the most current newsweek article about Billy Grham he basically comes out and says he doesn't believe the entire bible was God inspired or God written. I don't have the exact quote but he says some shit like I no longer believe the entire bible was written by God like I used too.

Christianity was so damn confusing when I was a christian with everyone thinking that their church or they were in sole possesion of the truth. I am so thankful I found the backdoor and I'm not referring to the backdoor that Ted HAggard is used to. I mean a real door.

Anonymous said...

This is an allegory that has yet to be fulfilled. Do you see yourself in this story?

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

You never have to feel as though you’ve sinned so much that God can’t possibly forgive you and you can repent until your last dying breath.

boomSLANG said...

Ian started this thread with a 1400 hundred word essay to Jesus on how much he hates Jesus. That implies that Ian believes that Jesus exists.

That's odd....I thought it was written under premise that no such a$$hole so big could exist, no? Well, if "He" does exist...add "LAZY bastard" to the list.

Have you pondered how the elements that make up what we see around us even exist?

Naturally.

Scientists tell us that all matter was contained in a super massive ball that exploded. But where did that matter come from? How did it get there to begin with? How long was it there? And what forces made it finally explode?

1) 'Don't know
2) 'Don't know
3) 'Don't know
4) 'Don't know

....and because I don't know(no one does), I simply say "I don't know", instead of positing a magical cosmic ghost as the default "answer". Ancient man didn't "know" what caused rainbows, so they mustered up the notion that it was God's message that he wouldn't flood the earth again. There was even said to be "gold" at the end of the rainbow. However, we now know that neither "hypothesis" is true. There is a perfectly natural explanation for rainbows, and likewise, there may one day be perfectly logical and natural explanations for all those other proposed questions.

My point is that what you believe is every bit as much “faith” as is my belief that the designer of what I see around me has chosen to reveal himself to us through the Holy Bible.

The "faith"(lower case "f") that one may have in science is that there are no "absolutes", with the exception of "change", and that science objectively observes, with it's results being testable AND falsifiable. Conversely, the religious type of "Faith"(upper case "f") is a different ball of wax. Religious convictions, mainly based off their ancient texts, are NOT subject to change, so when said beliefs/convictions conflict with reality, it's adherents believe regardless, because they have "Faith". 'Two different things.

I believe in life after death – and I believe that there are two paths – one that leads to everlasting life and one that leads to everlasting damnation.

You "believe", do ya? That's utterly fantastic. Scientologists(some) "believe" that lizard men inhabit a remote planet, and that these creatures come to earth and "shape-shift" into humans in order to mingle, and thus, conspire against us. The fact that they "believe" this says nothing about reality, however. A "belief" is a belief is a belief.

Are you so confident in your faith that you are willing to risk an eternity in hell? Can you not just humbly say a prayer that God open your mind to the truth?

Can you not just humbly cut your neighbor's heads off, attach them to your clothes-line, put on a pair of lamb-skin skivvies, start a giant bonfire, smear pigeon's blood on your face, and dance around in circles so Gambu, the Holy Headhunter god can show you "truth"?

Don't you see how ridiculous you sound?

Warnepiece said...

Anonymous again claims: “This is an allegory that has yet to be fulfilled.”

Thanks for clearing that up. Now we understand, the bible is made up of allegories! So which parts are real and which are just the allegories Anonymous? I supposed god has revealed that to you, even though he chooses not to reveal other important info. (See my last post.) The whole thing is a “Let’s scare the hell out of everyone” camp fire story concocted by semi literate Bronze Age heathens who didn’t understand the world around them. There is NO PROOF it’s was inspired or written by god. Do you get it?

Anonymous: “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

So what if there were two criminals hangin’ with Jesus? It’s an allegory, remember? It didn’t happen. (Just as an aside, how did that criminal who defended Jesus get to paradise with him when Jesus died and supposedly went to hell for three days? Oh wait, paradise = hell. Must be a Club Med franchise.)

Anony: You never have to feel as though you’ve sinned so much that God can’t possibly forgive you and you can repent until your last dying breath.

Who told you you’ve sinned? Is there anything you can show us, outside of the bible or koran, that says we are all sinners? It’s make believe, Anonymous! Your believing in it won’t make it any more real than if you go outside, build a bonfire, dance around it, and scream at the moon!

nehemiah said...

to warnepiece

what makes someone believe?

just because you believe God is not real, doesn't make him not real, correct?

honest question: what is your definition of real?

freeman said...

nehemiah,

I for one, and I am sure that I can speak for many here, have never said that a deity does not exist. We have no way of knowing. However, we can say that there is NO EVIDENCE for the Judeo/Christian/Muslim god! We have rejected the god of Abraham because it is mythology!

nehemiah said...

another honest question: why do you dismiss it as mythology?

nehemiah said...

sorry
"classify" is a better word than "dismiss" for my question

boomSLANG said...

another honest question: why do you dismiss it as mythology?

The same exact reason you dismiss Allah, Buddha, Amon Ra, Mithra, Poseidon, Thor, Hercules.....um, basically, every "God" but your own, as "mythology".

Warnepiece said...

Nehemiah,

Thanks for at least not posting as another “Anonymous”.

What makes someone believe? “Makes” suggests force, and I object to that. I think what you mean is, why would someone choose to believe. If they believe because someone else told them to because it is written in a book, I would say their belief is misguided at best. Believing should not flow from coercion.

What I don’t believe is the biblical god. There may be a “god”, I don’t know. But based on the bible, the god of Christianity is a hoax. If you have proof that that god is real, please present your evidence. With one provision, do it without the bible.

What to me is real? Per Merriam-Webster: REAL: not artificial, fraudulent, or illusory (like the bible god): a) Genuine: also: being precisely what the name implies, b) (1) : occurring or existing in actuality, (2) :of or relating to practical or everyday concerns or activities.

That is also MY definition of real! If that is not good enough, check out Freeman’s posting above.

nehemiah said...

well, there was historical evidense for Jesus, Moses and Abraham. I can see why the stories about such men may be in question, but, if I'm not mistaken there is evidence of there actual human existence. The other guys you listed are not.

by the way, boomslang, it's good to type to you again.

Anonymous said...

We DON'T hate Jesus, you dolt! How the heck can we hate something that cannot be proven real?? It's like hating the monster under the bed! How? HOW the HECK can you hate something that has no evidence to support its existance?? ...And without its proven existance, there cannot be anything about it we could hate OR like!! Only REAL things can have likeable/hateable attributes!! Barf, gag... Gaaaaahhh!! Tired of this garbage. -Wes.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and by the way- it's YOU who is saying 2+2=5. Just to clarify... -Wes.

Warnepiece said...

Nehemiah,

There may have been historical figures named Jesus, Moses and Abraham. Matter of fact, I think all three of them were part of the Mexican crew that did some remodeling for me recently. Surely you are not going to tell us that, because there were people name Jesus, Moses and Abraham that that proves the bible, or that the biblical god, is real.

freeman said...

nehemiah said...

well, there was historical evidense for Jesus, Moses and Abraham. I can see why the stories about such men may be in question, but, if I'm not mistaken there is evidence of there actual human existence. The other guys you listed are not.


Please oh enlightened one, show us the evidence! We have been searching and have come up wanting! Hurry, please do not keep us in the dark! You have finally done what no historians have never been able to do! You are the only human on earth who has evidence that there was a historical Jesus, Moses and Abraham! I for one am in awe!

nehemiah said...

warnepiece

as far as belief, I'm not sure you can choose what you really believe. I'm thinking of the last scene in Pulp Fiction where Jules breaks down his verse in Ezekiel to the robber in the restaurant. He wants to believe he's the shepherd, but knows (or really believes) he is the tyranny of evil men. But, he's trying ringo :)

I guess what I'm saying is, what you believe is what you know to be real or true. Who you are -- I mean really are -- determines what you really think is true.

That being said, if truth is objective and perception of that truth is subjective, I guess what determines your perception of what is true. Past experiences? Lies (believed or not)? Doubts? Faith?

nehemiah said...

freeman,

if you can use the Bible as a cultural historical reference, there is just as much evidence of an Abraham as there is of a Homer or a Joseph Smith. If you're totally dismissing the Bible of any historical worth (which is something even most professional skeptics don't do) then, I guess you got me. If that's the case, how about one for the sake of argument?

Warnepiece said...

Nehemiah,

I can’t believe (there’s that word again) you would actually quote from Quentin Tarantino’s satire as a way to make your point.
Actually, what is your point? Are you scrounging around trying to come up with some proof that the bible is real, that the biblical god is real, and that Jesus is real by giving us some puffed up esoteric religious gobbledygook you heard in Theology 101?

J. C. Samuelson said...

Nehemiah,

"...there was historical evidense for Jesus, Moses and Abraham...if I'm not mistaken there is evidence of there actual human existence."

I'm afraid there is scant evidence, and is of dubious value at best. Outside of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic scripture and tradition, there is no historical evidence for any of these men.

Some Christians feel that the writings of Josephus and Tacitus qualify as evidence of Jesus' existence because both are presumed to be unfriendly or neutral witnesses. However, even the best reading of either source shows that at most they recorded that Christians traced their religious lineage to someone called Jesus. That is, neither was familiar with the man who was alleged to have founded the Christian faith except through the witness of the faithful.

Of course, I have no problem conceding that such men might have existed (or someone like them). Every religion in history was founded by someone, and in any event the question of their existence will probably never be answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Back to boomSLANG's list. I believe he was responding to why we think "it" can be classified as mythology (i.e., God). The men you mention are not in the same category (not being gods, but members of the supporting cast in the Bible). All the same, it could be effectively argued that they are just as mythical.

nehemiah said...

warnepiece,
watcha got againt tarntino? My point was that you don't get to choose what you really believe, only what you want to pretend to believe OR what you want to investigate further: you know, add some experiences, get some more info, keep an open mind. Maybe that is something you get to choose -- keeping an open mind.

nehemiah said...

j.c.

is there something in particular, that makes you think these founders were wrong? If you've posted a testimony somewhere answering that, would you respond to it again? thank you.

Warnepiece said...

Nehemiah,

Keeping an open mind. I like that. That is an excellent idea. Why don't most people who profess Christianity do that?
Keep that open mind as you read, I mean really read, the bible. Keep an open mind as you explore the reality behind those historical figures you mentioned, Jesus, Moses and Abraham. See if they stand up under closer scrutiny. My guess, like most of us on this website, you'll find that they don't. Please check out the information J. C. Samuelson suggested.

nehemiah said...

I do keep that open mind. I have to. I don't argue that some of the things I read in there are confusing, unbelievable, sometimes condemning... but I come across some things as I live, questions I ask, different understandings of things I read in the Bible that I've read before, and weird experiences ... I have to reconcile that, somehow. I can't just dismiss what I read when sometimes it makes sense even though sometimes it doesn't. I tell you what, it is almost impossible to accept the Bible as true without something else to verify it.

what happens when you experience things that may verify?

Warnepiece said...

Dinner is waiting. I'll post later, if in the meantine I don't react like Wes did earlier, Barf, gag...Gaaaaahhhhh!

J. C. Samuelson said...

"I guess what I'm saying is, what you believe is what you know to be real or true."

Believing and knowing may be considered synonymous in religious or mystic circles, but that does not mean that they are. Reality and truth are objective, regardless of what we may think or say about them. This applies to both theists and non-theists.

As an example, consider that many do not believe there is any other intelligent life in the universe. This seems to reflect reality (it seems true), since we have no evidence for any such thing. However, the existence of intelligent, extraterrestrial life is not dependent on our belief. In other words, such life exists (or doesn't) regardless of what anybody thinks.

The same could be said of your God. We have no evidence for such a being, and plenty of evidence that the books that talk about him are flawed, so our non-belief seems a valid reflection of reality. However, it is equally possible that we are wrong - it might exist. That's why arguments over God's existence never really end up anywhere, though they can be entertaining from time to time. Neither side can conclusively and empirically determine the truth.

"...if you can use the Bible as a cultural historical reference, there is just as much evidence of an Abraham as there is of a Homer or a Joseph Smith."

Not quite. There is substantial evidence for the existence of Joseph Smith, being that he was an American citizen and his life and death is a matter of public record. As for Homer, you're correct. No one knows if such a man ever existed. So, if you want to debate the evidence for the existence of Moses, Abraham, and Jesus as compared to Homer, have fun.

nehemiah said...

Since warnepiece is eating something, and apparently something not too good, can anyone else address the intangible things that make a person believe in something so unbelievable? I'm not trying to bait anyone. I'm genuinely interested what others think about this.

boomSLANG said...

Thanks J.C---yeah, I see the distinction between the two classifications if we consider that the biblical supporting cast existed, but were not of a "Divine" nature. I see your point......my oversight.

nehemiah said...

hey, JC

I agree what is true and what is believed are not the same. What I was getting at was that who we are will determine what we really believe.

I really wanted to believe in Santa as a kid, but I eventually had to admit it wasn't true and that I really never believed. Nothing in me let me accept as true. I really want to believe God is real, but a lot of times I don't. However, in honest, almost depressed introspection, I find something in me that says "you know what, it might be." Is that "something" faith? I don't know, but whatever it is, it is a part of who I am and I can't just ignore it because doubt runs in my head

freeman said...

nehemiah
I would also like to see historical evidence of Jesus, apart from the writings of Josephus.

Also, I do think the bible has SOME historical data in it (i.e. cities, battles, etc.). However, I doubt the cast was real. The bible is no more a work of non-fiction than "The DaVinci Code". This book contained many known cities, works of art, organizations, etc., but it is not REAL! I think that this is your major flaw. Just because a book has some sprinkles of reality, does not make the entire book "true".

J. C. Samuelson said...

"...is there something in particular, that makes you think these founders were wrong?"

Well, why do you think the ancient Greeks were wrong about Apollo, Zeus, or Athena? Why do you think Muslims are wrong about Allah, or the Hindus about Shiva? You see, we are probably very much alike in our skepticism when it comes to these other gods, yet differ radically when it comes to the Christian god.

Many ancient peoples manufactured deities to explain everything which they didn't understand. There have literally been thousands of gods created, worshipped, and discarded by mankind. As mankind gradually learned more about the world, these gods receded and were eventually abandoned.

The same is true of the Christian god, except He has not yet been abandoned. Modern science and reason has slowly and steadily whittled away at those areas of knowledge which used to be the domain of God. There is every reason to assume that eventually God will have no reason to exist in the minds of men (or women).

So, to answer your question the fact is that the authors of the Bible belonged to an ancient culture whose knowledge of the universe was severely limited to say the least. Their explanation of the workings of the world are not an accurate description of reality. Human beings, as a rule, do not rise from the dead. Plants, as a rule, do not talk (and neither do donkeys - except in entertaining kid's flicks). I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

If they could not accurately describe the world in which they lived, what makes you think they could accurately describe something not of this world?

freeman said...

nehemiah said...

However, in honest, almost depressed introspection, I find something in me that says "you know what, it might be."

Oh boy, the little scared child has emerged! What if this "powerful, mean deity is right and I dissed him, I will burn for all eternity!

nehemiah said...

Well, I guess I give some writers in the new testament the benefit of the doubt that even if they were wrong, they thought they were accurate. If Paul and Peter write about experiences they have had and things they have seen (in Peter's case,seeing Jesus himself) and know it all as fact, I mean, if they really did die because they thought it was real, it's hard to just dismiss what they were saying.

nehemiah said...

freeman

actually, that is a good question. that is not how I would classify the "something" I found inside, but it's funny you mention that. Out of the blue, like never before, something like what you described got my attention for a second. Something like a fear hit me. Maybe I'm nuts, i don't know. But for the first time, like a heavyness, nothing else mattered in that two seconds. Maybe a flash of faith.

nehemiah said...

freeman

I meant to say add that this happened on the way here tonight.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"I really want to believe God is real, but a lot of times I don't. However, in honest, almost depressed introspection, I find something in me that says "you know what, it might be." Is that "something" faith? I don't know, but whatever it is, it is a part of who I am and I can't just ignore it because doubt runs in my head."

Wonderful honesty there, Nehemiah. I felt the same way as you do now for many, many years, though I wasn't raised Christian. But you know what? Speaking only for myself, it wasn't faith - it was fear. Fear of being wrong. Fear of hell because I believed the wrong thing. So, what I did for a long time was basically adopt Pascal's Wager. I figured it was better to err on the side of caution.

Then I went through a fundie phase where I bought the whole enchilada. It wasn't until I was honest with myself that I could acknowledge the specious nature of apologetics, and the circular reasoning I had been using to justify my belief in God. But I digress.

Keep being honest with yourself. Learn as much as possible. There is nothing to fear from knowledge.

freeman said...

nehemiah

A mean,vengeful non-all loving deity is not worthy of worship! That is, if he truely exist, which I do not believe.

nehemiah said...

To JC

That's the thing-- it wasn't fear. I bought the whole fundie enchilada thing, too, but it was in times of courage and giving up the act that I found this thing inside. It was courage to say, "maybe your not real God, and I'm not playing it safe right now. You have to show me now for me to believe. Take it to a real level or I just can't do it anymore" I felt secure in waiting, but not in a 'just to be safe thing'
It's pretty cool.

freeman
I'm not so sure about the mean vengeful thing. If the God-man relationship is really a father-child kind of thing, what a child may see as mean and unfair, a father (a good one anyway) may really be waiting patiently and discipling and after several attempts to add everyone to his family who is willing, close the door. I don't know, kind of lame, but there seems to be some kind of sense to it. I don't think I EVER believed in the kind of god you're describing

J. C. Samuelson said...

"If Paul and Peter write about experiences they have had and things they have seen (in Peter's case,seeing Jesus himself) and know it all as fact..."

Paul wrote a lot, but never saw Jesus. Peter saw Jesus, but didn't write a thing. Interesting, don't you think?

"I mean, if they really did die because they thought it was real, it's hard to just dismiss what they were saying."

The same could be said of suicide bombers, don't you think? I mean, why should we dismiss their beliefs (Islam), since they are quite obviously ready to die for them?

In any event, the only evidence anyone has for the deaths of the disciples is church tradition (the Catholic church, to be specific). It's possible they were martyred, yes. It's also possible they died peacefully, and others used their deaths to galvanize their congregations.

nehemiah said...

JC

To my knowledge, scholars accept I and II Peter as authored by the apostle Peter. As far as the validity to their cause? If part of their cause involves being honest, and unlike suicide bombers who may be promised a greater position or reward as a martyr, did not gain anything they wouldn't get had they not been martyred ...

freeman said...

nehemiah,
Do you have any children? Well, I do and there is not a single thing that they could do that I would turn my back on them FOREVER! The god of the bible will turn his back on anyone who displeases him in the least. I would call him an abusive father!

nehemiah said...

I do have kids, one the natural way and two by default of marrying a single mother. I'm fortunate that the kids take to me as there dad. But if they would choose to disown me for whatever reason, what can I do? I guess I see God as more of an adoptive father, letting those who want to come to the family come. In fact urging all to come in to the home because a bad storm is coming. In that light, God seems more like a very loving dad, even inviting all the neighborhood kids inside. Those who choose to stay out while it seems sunny, they seem like the people of Noah's day who would rather play their way than come in. Hard to blame the dad in that case.

Have you always thought God was like that? No wonder you left. I've never known him (if I ever really have known him) like that. Whoever sold you that crap needs a but woopin'.

nehemiah said...

JC, freeman, warnepiece, boomslang,

great chatting with you all. I must end my obviously boring day as it is late in the midwest and the Panera is about ready to kick me out. If you're ever interested in a good read about Christians who break from the fundie crap and do some pretty surprising things, "Blue Like Jazz" by ? I'll check back tomorrow for any responses, but if this is the last we talk, take care.

.:webmaster:. said...

In that light, God seems more like a very loving dad, even inviting all the neighborhood kids inside

And if the kids refuse to come, then they'll be tortured forever in the loving bowels of hell.

Great example of a dad.

Warnepiece said...

Nope, I never thought of god like that. I thought of Harvey the Rabbit from Jimmy Stewart's movie to be like that. No one came to him because he wasn't really there, just like god....HMMmmmmm!And yes, at times we would like to open a can o' Whup-Ass on the clowns who initially dragged into the Jesus cult.
Oh, try the Asiago bagels before you leave, They are GREAT!
Buh-bye!

Dave8 said...

Nehemiah: "Those who choose..."

The dogma of christianity states that humanity is pre-destined with sin, therefore, people don't have "choices". See genesis, and original sin.

Nehemiah: "...to stay out"

God omnisciently knew humanity would "stay out", therefore, god must be pleased with the plan.

Nehemiah: "while it seems sunny,..."

For many, life is sunny, well, except for those moments when people who proclaim themselves god authorities state that everyone that doesn't believe in their words, are going to hell, or some place of torture.

Nehemiah: "...they seem like the people of Noah's day who would rather play their way than come in."

We are only as good as your god allows, per christianity... in short, your god omnisciently knew he created a sinful adam and eve, and then knew he would destroy their offspring, his own creation. What of the people that were never allowed the chance to see Noah or his boat? Did god murder them along with all the animals, and everyone else, who just happened to be on the planet at the time? Perhaps, your god is okay with collateral damage, as a moral standard.

Nehemiah: "Hard to blame the dad in that case."

Especially, since dad doesn't exist in the physical realm, its probably more pertinent to state... "it's hard to blame someone's father figure mental image"... makes one wonder if they weren't taught they were lacking something in their life, that required them to create such an image.

J. C. Samuelson said...

"...scholars accept I and II Peter as authored by the apostle Peter."

Some apologetic scholars do, yes. And it is of course a matter of long-standing tradition in the church. However, the authorship of these two epistles is far from settled among a majority of biblical scholars. II Peter in particular is widely considered to be of questionable authorship for too many reasons to really get into here without it being cumbersome. For more information, see here.

The doubt that surrounds the authorship of I Peter largely centers around the type of Greek the author used, and because the author's references to the OT are culled from the LXX (Septuagint) version, the Greek translation of that text.

Although most Hellenistic Jews could be expected to be conversant in Greek due to its common use in trade, the type of Greek used by the author of I Peter indicates a level of education that one would not expect from a mostly illiterate Galilean fisherman. The author's reliance on the LXX as the source for his OT quotes also casts doubt on Peterine authorship because the apostle Peter would very likely have been more familiar with the Hebrew and Aramaic version. There's more to it than that of course, but it would be just as cumbersome as the contentions regarding II Peter. So once again, for more information see here.

Not to belabor the point, but even if we accept that the apostle Peter wrote these two epistles, the amount of material pales in comparison to the Pauline literature. If we further consider the influence of these two writers on modern Christian thought, it is no contest at all.

"If part of their cause involves being honest, and unlike suicide bombers who may be promised a greater position or reward as a martyr, did not gain anything they wouldn't get had they not been martyred ..."

The promised rewards may differ, but the essence is the same; if you die for the sake of your god or your faith, you will receive a great reward in heaven. My point was that suicide bombers are true believers willing to die for their belief. If we are to use the believer's willingness to be martyred as a measure for the truth of a proposition, then the Koran has been confirmed a thousand times over. If we were to compare the number of Christian martyrs to the number of Islamic martyrs, I wonder which holy book would benefit from the preponderance of martyrdom evidence. But I digress.

Can you see how a believer's willingness to be martyred is not really a measure of the truth of their faith?

Ian said...

Wow, this sure exploded since I was last here!

I suppose I should answer the big question: Do I believe that Jesus exists?

To answer honestly: I don't know.

I am a spiritual person. That is, I do believe in other states of existance beyond the physical, I believe in a higher conciousness or state of being (God). Now, does Jesus exist as a spiritual being? I don't know. It's possible, and I lean towards it, but I don't know what Jesus is if he exists in the spiritual.

I do believe that there was a historial man whom the modern day Jesus is based around, but I am of the idea that this man was a man who believed that the end of the world was going to come within 100 years, and that he was supposed to play an important part in the event. He mostly went around telling people to get right with God, becuase the world was going to end. This man was eventually killed, unknown and ignored by the Romans.

Beyond that, everything is pure speculation. Did this man do miracles? I don't know. Some of these miracles have been done by other ancient religious figures (coming back from the dead for example, and being the savior of the world). Does the essence of this man continue to exist in another realm of being? I don't know.

I suppose I addressed my article to the idol Jesus found in the bible. That is, it's directed to the man found in the christian religion who has become an idol who is worshipped, much like the golden calf from the Moses story (and I don't know if that's a true historical event or not, or if it's a mix of history and fiction). It's possible that Jesus, if he does exist in one way or another, is quite different from the Jesus found in the bible. But again, I have to say that I don't know if he does or not.

So at the moment, I do not know where I stand on Jesus. It's possible that his essence might exist in another, undiscovered plane of existance, or it's possible that his atoms are worm food that have been recycled endlessly over the past two thousand years or so. I just do not know.

For now, I am open to the idea that if a spiritual Jesus does exist, then he does. Otherwise, I now remain neutral to this figure.

Steve said...

Jesus- the greatest story ever told - and the emphasis is on 'story'. Jesus was an itinerant Jewish Rabbi or Rebbe, also apparently a carpenter, who had a great sense of social justice, something I think originated with the Jews.

Emperor Constantine decided to join up with the followers of Jesus, and the memory of this good man has been used to murder 10s of millions of Arabs / Muslims during the middle ages, probably a million women who were denounced as witches and burned at the stake, and 10s' of thousands of 'heretics'. Civilization went nowhere for 1200 years until the partial reformation in the 1500s, not that right wing branches of christianity are much better. And we have the monstrosity of Rome to thank for much of the hatred found within the muslim world.

Much of right wing christianity is nothing but filling people with the double ended anxiety of fear of mythical hell if they don't kiss the churches butt, and life everlasting if they do. Of course, this is all crap, it is just an insurance scam for power and money. We all have the opportunity to live on in the genetic makeup of our children, but sorry, your conciousness is connected to your physical body, and evolution hasn't found a way to fix that so it continues. Hey, its fair, we all die. sri.

What we need to teach in the schools of this nation is the history of christianity, the superstition, ignorance, hatred, etc it has brought the world.

As my PHD biotech friend says, the only thing stopping us from creating basic life forms is the ability to analyze on an atomic level the life of a cell. we need a 1 million times increase, and based on decades in the computer industry that is coming in 25-50years. Then we'll create life from non-life, and create virtual people in computers, and understand consciousness as well. Then Finally, maybe we'll realize that the one thing we want to keep from religion is the ten commandments, something so much of religion seems to have forgotten. As for their bureacracy, maybe we'll still have the unemployment office

nehemiah said...

if anyone is still looking,

I did not come to faith by a "hmm, that makes some good sense" epiphany about the Bible. To be honest, whatever I thought I understood about the Bible was confusing and barely believable if at all. But something happened to me--something in me said, I believe Jesus is God, is here, is really loving me. Not just a passing thought, but an overwhelming assurance that it's true. Lies and truth became easily discernable, and the Bible read very understandable. Some days, I doubt, some I have no way of saying or defending any of what I believe to anyone. Some days I say none of it is true, but I'm left knowing that something inside had changed. By the by, joy and peace and an ability to really love are the calling card of Jesus. If someone sold you on fear of hell, insecurity about yourself, or promises of prosperity, feel free to be an ex-christian of that kind of Christianity. Real stuff? ask for proof and wait. You might be surprised.

Steve said...

Blaine:

I actually tried to get excommunicated from the Catholic church. The letter would go up on the wall as a point of pride. Of course, I'm not catholic.

If you feel bad, and you're gay, just go join the Unitarian-Universalists, or the United Churches of Christ, or Jewish Reform churches. There are also 'welcoming congregations' in the Episcopal, Methodists, and even the non Roman "American Catholic Church" and the "Emerging Catholic Church", who welcome all.

Please remember - you are the victim of one of history's largest and cruelest insurance scams. I'm thrilled today - the democrats have taken control of our government back from Bush and his @#$%^&* theocons and neocons. Massachusetts legislature soundly defeated an attempt to put gay marriage up to a "hate vote" constitutional amendment by a vote of 196 to 0, and the pope can use his tears to wash off his assh..., or lube himself if he is plugged up.

Also if you are gay, hey remember, the place to go look for a partner is to dial e-van-gel-ical. You might even get Mr. Haggart, and make some money in the process.

While on that subject, it is just another example that says that people who hate gays, want to turn them into "untouchables" are in it for 3 reasons - power, money, and of course the self-hatred of trying so desperately to deny their own sexuality feelings. Perhaps we should go to the 10 commandments and feel sorry for them, they too are victims of the church.

boomSLANG said...

if anyone is still looking,

Yeah, I am.......I'm still looking for the evidence that supports your "belief"....but yet, even admittedly, you still don't have any. It's no problem, though---there's freedom of religion/non-religion here in the "melting pot". Just keep believing as you wish----like a Muslim will "just believe"; like a scientologist will "just believe"; like a headhunter will "just believe". Just "believe", until you're brimming with Jesus' love.

I personally think you are confusing "hope" with "belief"..but that's just my opinion. You can hope your life away, thinking that you'll win the American Family Publisher's sweepstakes one day...but you can't "believe" that you've won, until Ed McMahon actually shows up at your door.

Dave8 said...

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

Letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say the human soul, angels, God are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise; but I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialsim, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that "God" is a spirit, but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter."

The first question, any believer should attempt to find for their own belief system, is whether or not their "god", or "spirit", is a material or an immaterial form. If immaterial, and not of this natural reality, then, they are just as atheist to the original believers as any modern day ateist. I know... its a hard stretch for the ignorant, but, there is hope in a proper education.

Enigma said...

Steve: "I'm thrilled today - the democrats have taken control of our government back from Bush and his @#$%^&* theocons and neocons."

Uh, Bush is still the President, the only good news in bringing a balance, is at least some oversight will now be realized, where there didn't appear to be any for a period of time.

What "will" be different, during these few years of oversight, which I welcome, is the polarization of the religious group being pandered to. There are as many christian leftist followers, as there are christian right wing followers. Still, religion on the left, or on the right... is still religion and belief in some invisible sky daddy.

Self acceptance as a gay individual, doesn't need to involve itself with either politics or religion. Wanting ones' voice heard, so that they receive legal protection, etc., need their voice heard by politicians. This requires no religious affiliation.

If someone wants to find a group of people that they can commune with because they have a lot in common, they do not have to seek religious affiliation. If they do, the sky daddy is a farse, and they just need to understand the "true" reason they are communing with others... if only, because these others have a lot in common.

Personally, I see it a failure in society when a person has to concede to religion, in order to find social suport and acceptance.

south2003 said...

Annoyfundie: I have no reason to try to convince you that the answer is 4... I'm confident it is...and if you choose to believe that it's 5 then it is your issue to deal with.

What a pathetic analogy.

Is anyone threatened with eternal torment if they believe 2+2 = 5?

south2003 said...

"The Bible tells us that the wage of sin is death and since everyone one of us is a sinner (Christian and non-Christian alike) we should all be sent to hell."

What crimes can one commit to receive such a punishment – burning for all eternity? Your salvation story is not a gift. It’s more like a I-owe-you with interest. Furthermore, I do not give honor to martyrs and if it were true, why would a god need to create itself in human form, kill itself, to appease itself? I mean really, if you were to look at the story, it points to a god who is sadistic.

Anonymous said...

MY SWEET BABIES YOU ARE THE TRUE BLOOD OF MY HEART,YOU SPEAK YOUR HEARTS,BUT KNOW THIS YOU WILL NOT BURN IN FIRE.YOU WILL ONLY BE CUT OFF FROM WHAT IS GIVING TO YOU.I WOULD NEVER SEEND YOU TO BURN IN HELL FIRE,THIS ONLY MEANS YOU DID NOT GO TALK TO MY SON JESUS,WHOM TELLS ME YOU ARE IN NEED OF HELP.I SAY UNTO YOU DONT CLAM TO BE A CHRISTAN JUST A FOLLOWER OF JESUS.YOU THEN WILL BE TEMPTED OF THE DEVIL.THEN YOU WILL KNOW YOU ARE DOING MY WILL.JUST PRAY TO ME GOD IN JESUS NAME,BELEAVE HE DIDED FOR YOU SINS,AND YOU WILL LIVE FOEVER.

GOD IS IN MAN said...

sounds like some of you need help to understanding.i can help you to find your way.just try me and see if you know i am right.i am a man of god that was sent here to give you the truth.i will not fight with you.if you realy want the true ask me.

boom' said...

OH PLEASE, HEAVENLY ONE...TELL US....TELL US THE TRUFTH! PLEEZE, I BEG OF YOU.... DON'T MAKE US WAIT ANOTHER EARTHLY MINUTE--- ENLIGHTEN US.

Wes said...

STOP YELLING!!!

Warnepiece said...

God is in Man,

I think this posting is a joke, but okay, let’s try this…
Explain in detail what happened in Joshua 10:12-14.

Mind you, this isn’t the only question I have about your holy book but it will do for starters.

I am not looking for a fight, just a logical and sound explanation. And I truly hope your explanation doesn’t boil down to “God Said it, I believe it, That settles it!” Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

I love kuku clocks.

And parrots.

unknown sinner said...

PAHLEEZE DONT SEND ME TO HELL JESUS....I BEG YOU, PLEASE!!!...WHAT'S THIS????...YOU'VE BOUND MY HANDS...JESUS!!!! JESUS!!! WHY ARE YOU DRAGGING ME TO HELL???? I THOUGHT ALLAH WAS THE ONLY REAL GOD, I MADE A MISTAKE!!!...NO!!...NO!!...NO!!!JESUS PLEASE STOP NO!!!NO!!! WAIT DON'T DON'T FU%$%^&**(*()KKK YOU JEEEEEEEEEZZZUUS!!!!!!!! IT'S HOT!!!!!....DAMN YOU JEEEESUUUUUUSSSSS!!!!!!

GOD IS IN MAN said...

OK YOU MUST FIRST UNDERSTAND WE ARE LIVING THE NEW TESTAMENT,THE STORYS BEHIND THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE NOT ARE TIME,THEY ARE ONLY STORYS IN THE PASSED TRY THE NEW TESTAMENT THIS IS ARE TIME SILLY

Wes said...

God is man: What is the truth? Enlighten me. -Wes.

god is in man said...

why do you play as if this is a game do you want the truth this i ask you.try ask and you shall know.

Wes said...

Fine. I want the truth; I want you to tell it to me. I am going to ask you simple questions. I'm not screwing around. Here we go: Question One: Were did the earth come from? -Wes.

god is in man said...

the truth is jesus,ask me

Wes said...

Kan't Spel tonite. The word was 'Where'. You knew that. -Wes

Wes said...

What do you mean, 'the truth is Jesus'? Did Jesus create the earth? -Wes

god is in man said...

the eath is are heaven that one day will be ours god made the eath you know that.god bless you

Wes said...

I'm not asking who the earth belongs to, or who it will belong to. I am asking you how the earth came into existence? Do you know how the earth came into existence? -Wes

god is in man said...

ask me something real

Wes said...

So, God made the earth. Did God tell you this? -Wes.

Wes said...

I AM asking you something real! How can I be more real?? Did God TELL you he made the earth?? Yes or no?? -Wes

god is in man said...

god made the eath and every thing in it

Wes said...

How do you know God made the earth and everything in it? My question is, did he tell you this? How do you KNOW god made the earth and everything in it? -Wes

god is in man said...

do you want today or the past we all know god made life

Wes said...

Answer the direct question with a direct answer, please. How do YOU know that God made the earth and everything in it? How did you come to learn this fact? What is your source of this knowledge?? It's a simple question!! Come on!! -Wes.

god is in man said...

dear sir,i know my book of life and yes god said to me he made the eath. god is in me to help you and all you want is to tempt him

Wes said...

>> dear sir,i know my book of life and yes god said to me he made the eath. god is in me to help you and all you want is to tempt him
>>

OK, great. So, God told you directly that he made the earth? Are we clear? Is this true? -Wes

god is in man said...

i know what this is about.you say to me see you have to start from the beging,you are right,but understand some of the old testament is what others went though so that we may learn

Wes said...

By the way - I am not tempting 'God'. I am asking YOU questions. Remember: you asked US to ask YOU questions, right? I am only accepting your invite. -Wes.

god is in man said...

i love you friend why do you play dont you have something you need to know on mind

Wes said...

>> i know what this is about.you say to me see you have to start from the beging,you are right,but understand some of the old testament is what others went though so that we may learn
>>

Do you communicate with God directly? Is this how you know God made the earth and everything in it?? Direct answers, please. -Wes.

Wes said...

>> i love you friend why do you play dont you have something you need to know on mind
>>

That's great. I want to know how you know that God created the earth? How do you know this? I am not playing around! It's terribly important to me!! -Wes

Warnepiece said...

God is in man,

You just posted “but understand some of the old testament is what others went though so that we may learn”. Yet at 10:28 PM you wrote “THEY ARE ONLY STORYS IN THE PASSED TRY THE NEW TESTAMENT THIS IS ARE TIME SILLY”. So do we learn from the Old Testament, or ignore it?

god is in man said...

yes sir i did thank you for your time but realy is there some thing you dont know please i will try to help

god is in man said...

no sir fell free to read what you wish and yes i talk right to god and he replies

Wes said...

Fine. Tell God to calculate total VARS and the power factor angle for an inductive load consuming 1500 watts, and consuming a total VA of 2300VA. I want God to tell me that. -Wes

god is in man said...

i do study the great book but i seek god face and he will talk to you i can ask god did you realy make the eath and he said yes

Wes said...

Great. If he created the earth, and all the laws of the physical universe to go with it, he can answer my simple power factor question. I await the almighty's answer. Did he tell you yet? -Wes

god is in man said...

you must be triping get a calculater god says

Warnepiece said...

God is in man,

….and when you answer Wes’ question, since you DO hear from God, tell us, what kind of voice does God have? Bass, tenor, baritone? What language does the omnipotent one speak? Aramaic, Greek, Latin, English, Ebonics? Does God use contractions? Does that being speak like you spell, or do they use vocal spell check first?

We'd really like to know.

Wes said...

"Get a calculator". Ha. Smartass god. -Wes

god is in man said...

god is asking me to tell you please dont tempt him

god is in man said...

god has a voice like a wisper be still very still and ask him only in jesus name to talk to you

Wes said...

Look, if any question I pose to you is 'tempting God', then what the hell is the point of inviting us to ask you questions? Oh wait - this is some kind of circular argument. I forgot. You guys are great at that. Hee hee. Stupid me. -Wes.

god is in man said...

god bless you all and any eyes that read his word.god bless any one ever to become a part of this net.

Warnepiece said...

Okay. God,,in Jesus name, talk to me, just like you do with God is in Man……


Hmmmmmmm…………


Funny, He must be too busy being a smartass god with you God is in Man….


Or maybe, just maybe…you are making it all up.

god is in man said...

look wes god is talking to u now see he is here

god is in man said...

you need to be still wes very still after you get into bed ask him from you heart and mind and tell me if he came to you and share it with the rest on here.he told me you have a great heart but a lot of pain but tonite when you ask you to will see.

Wes said...

>> look wes god is talking to u now see he is here
>>

No, I am sure it's just the host of this program I am watching on the Discovery Channel right now. Sorry. Besides, if he's there, how is he talking to me HERE? Creepy.. -Wes.

god is in man said...

GOD HAS SOME THING FOR WES. GUYS IN A FEW DAYS YOU ALL WILL HERE WES BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN ON FOR SOME TIME. WHAT HE WILL TELL YOU WILL CHANGE YOU ALL.GOD BLESS YOU WES.

Warnepiece said...

Oh boy, God is talking. I’ve got my recorder on. Please have Yahweh say something into the microphone; just a simple “test…1…2…3” would be fine.

Actually, I think God is in Man had an extra helping of Psilocybin mushrooms tonight!

Wes said...

Does he have a Power Factor question for me? I have a calculator now... -Wes.

god is in man said...

GOD IS BIGyou are small THATS HOW HE CAN TALK TO ME AND ANYONE ELES THAT ASK.

Wes said...

>> Oh boy, God is talking. I’ve got my recorder on. Please have Yahweh say something into the microphone; just a simple “test…1…2…3” would be fine.
>>

Did you get anything yet? :-) -Wes.

god is in man said...

I MUST GO NOW BUT YOU TALK CRAZY TO EACH OTHER UNTIL GOD AND I COME BACK LOVE U ALL SEE YOU ALL AT 11:30 am TO WHOM WISH TO TALK .

Warnepiece said...

Why would size matter whether or not god talks to someone?

Is that voice a baritone, a tenor or bass, even at a whisper?

Is what you hear in English? If so, is it British, American, Canadian or Australian accented English?

Does that being use contractions when they speak to you? Seriously!

god is in man said...

p.s wes god tells me you should use your math mind and put it to good use and he will be waiting on u tonite

Warnepiece said...

Damn! I guess God is in Man packed up his little Charlie McCarthy "God" puppet and left.

No, the mike was on for 8 minutes and there was nothing. Well, I did pick up the sound of my cat, who is sitting about 2 feet away, purring!

god is in man said...

when a man lays down at night and ask god something from his heart you will find god tell you befor you even get done talking to him,thats when you stop!!listen very still,then ask him something eles this will keep on going .and you will here him in your heart and mind.you will think this is my voice,but it is god answering you befor you can even finish

Wes said...

>> p.s wes god tells me you should use your math mind and put it to good use and he will be waiting on u tonite
>>

I do. Every day. What??!? Is God hiding in my bed?? Aauugh!! I'm sleeping in the car! -Wes.

god is in man said...

if you dont beleave me try it,and tell me latter i am full of my self,but you have to ask god for forgivness and then talk to him.i will check back tomorow to see what he said to those of you that realy put your heart into it.pray to god but in jesus name that is where so many go wrong they thank you pray to jesus no,you pray to god almighty in jesus name amen.

Wes said...

>>No, the mike was on for 8 minutes and there was nothing. Well, I did pick up the sound of my cat, who is sitting about 2 feet away, purring!
>>

Dang. I thought for SURE we were all gonna get real proof this time. Poop. My hopes were sooo high. -Wes.

Wes said...

Tell God the answer is 1743.55 VARS; 49.29 degree lag; 65.2% PF. God will surely know what it all means, even though he failed first year engineering... -Wes

Warnepiece said...

God is in Man,

I'd swear you are trying to avoid Wes' power factor question because you just don't know and there is no god to answer it for you. Otherwise you'd have given the answer long ago. But all you can do is make up a fairy tale about asking god, in the still of the night, to speak softly to our heart. Maybe I wasn't in biology class that day, but I missed the part where my heart grew ears, or developed any auditory capabilities.

I still want to know what god's voice sounds like. Saying a whisper takes into account the volume, not the timbor or style. And what about god's accent?

god is in man said...

god loves you all an has a plan for your life damn it just listen what?did see that coming cussing is man made words only G.D.is bad so keep on say fuck this and fuck that it just shows you thing you are big.its not bad to say shit or any of those things just one hurts god and that is to use his name in vain

Warnepiece said...

Wes,

I even ran the recording through a compressor, a d-esser and boosted the volume...and there is nothing.

No surprise. God is a "no show".

god is in man said...

I DONT KNOW YOUR MATH WES AND I WOULD NEVER ASK MY HIGH GOD SOME STUPIED THING LIKE THAT I AM HERE FOR YOU FOR REALL AND ALL YOU DO IS PLAY PLAY PLAY ANY BODY ELES NEED TO KNOW WHY DID MY WIFE LEAVE ME OR IS JESUS REAL SOMETHING WITH MEANING PLEASE.

god is in man said...

i also ask god why cant i here you out load as i here my self,he wisperd to me saying if i spoke as you you would surly die,your heart would just stop because i am god almighty

Wes said...

>> god loves you all an has a plan for your life damn it just listen what?did see that coming cussing is man made words only G.D.is bad so keep on say fuck this and fuck that it just shows you thing you are big.its not bad to say shit or any of those things just one hurts god and that is to use his name in vain
>>

Look - hissy fits aside, all I wanted to know is how YOU know you are talking to God. Look - I was a Christian for over twenty five years, I have never EVER heard him speak to me, even after years of desperate pleading, crying, sobbing, etc, etc. I am sure many of us here have gone through exactly the same thing as I have and guess what? God failed that test many, many times, for all of us. Why not read some of the ex-testimonies here? We've given up on a false hope. There's no point in listening to something that is not ever going to SPEAK. -Wes.

Warnepiece said...

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA................

....Speak! Speak god speak!

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA.........

That was good! Good joke God is in Man. I didn't realize you were trying to be funny......

LMAO!!!!

god is in man said...

see the devil is so load you here him right now saying i did this and that i cant here god.the devil is telling you to ask me stupied shit,and god is wispering to you it would scare you shitless if god was as load as the devil thats why so many go the wrong way.i know what i say to be true back up and really read my words and you will see god is in me and you as well thats why i say to you be still damn it listen,dont let the devil tell you what do do just be still and listen

Wes said...

>> I DONT KNOW YOUR MATH WES AND I WOULD NEVER ASK MY HIGH GOD SOME STUPIED THING LIKE THAT I AM HERE FOR YOU FOR REALL AND ALL YOU DO IS PLAY PLAY PLAY ANY BODY ELES NEED TO KNOW WHY DID MY WIFE LEAVE ME OR IS JESUS REAL SOMETHING WITH MEANING PLEASE.
>>
Fine. Then you tell me - what is a valid question that I might ask?? Give me an example of a valid question that would not enrage your almighty god?? Waiting... -Wes.

Wes said...

>> Wes,

I even ran the recording through a compressor, a d-esser and boosted the volume...and there is nothing.

No surprise. God is a "no show".
>>

Drat. I wanted to broadcast it here on my LPFM station. I thought I might be able to convert a few thousand people in one shot!! -Wes.

Wes said...

Why would an omnipotent being like God allow the devil's voice to be louder than his own? Tell me - logically speaking - if you were god for just one day, what would be the first thing you would do? More specifically, what enemy of yours would you make disappear first?? -Wes.

Warnepiece said...

God is in Man says the devil is louder than god. (Boy what loser god is if he can't out-shout the devil!)Let me run a test, including backwards, (we know how the devil likes to put backward messages into recordings!)and see if Beezsebub's voice shows up.

Warnepiece said...

...sorry Beelzebub!

god is in man said...

wes my friend i am no christian,i have no religon i am seeking jesus face.these damn churches mess people up take you book understand it the best you can.dont ever listen to a man but try what i do it is so easy talk to god like you talk to me and listen to you heart and mind it really is that easy.a man has to read and beleave with all his heart and soul wes i know you know this.dont clam to be any thing just clam jesus died for you and if you confess to god about his son jesus it will all fall into place.i fell god is with you wes what he is going to do for you if you listen,i swear you will be on here helping even me i sence power you know a lot about god turn it on man,and help these people you have it in you this i know my name is thomas and one day u and i will meet and what god has for us is more than i know.

Warnepiece said...

Nope! Nothing on the recording.

I think we just experienced the "God is in Man Acid Koolaid Test"!

god is in man said...

the devil is lord of this world on eath god will one day come back to take what is his that is why most here the devil because is rules here for now and like i say god talks to your heart not you ears.the ears are the world you here and the world is the devils.i dont expect yall to understand this you need to talk to god and in time if you try taking in my words you will truly see.

Wes said...

Blah,blah, whatever. Sorry, I am less than convinced that your god is going to do any wonderful speaking-miracles tonight, but, I will be sure to post it here in the unlikely event something SHOULD happen. I promise you. Oh, and by the way - I have two angry pitbulls, whom I beat and starve on a regular basis; and near the end of the evening I lace their water dishes with meth to make them exceedingly paranoid and vicious, so NOBODY BETTER TRY TO SNEAK THROUGH MY WINDOW AND INTO MY BED!!! That includes God Is In Man, and his Whispering 'God'. Goodnight!! -Wes.

god is in man said...

thank what u will and god bless those that now read my words and take them deep in.i know i have help some.i will be back tomorow i go to talk to my god and leave here in peace.lord if i said anything that they miss understood take it from there hearts good night to all god bless 11:30am my friends

Warnepiece said...

God is in Man,

How in the HELL does god talk to an organ that pumps blood? And how does that organ understand when it has no capacity to hear or process information? Please give me the details of your obvious medical background when you get a chance.

Good riddan....er...good night.

Astreja said...

God is inSane,

The current time is 11:52 p.m. Central Standard Time.

Ask your god what object I am holding in my right hand Right Now. Be very specific as to the object materials, colour, size, etc.

If you fail to answer correctly you reveal yourself to be either a False Prophet™ or a person in need of psychiatric intervention.

Or you could just STFU and go away.

Warnepeice said...

OOOOOHHHhhhhhh..and I think False Prophets are to be stoned to death too, arn't they?

Astreja said...

Yup. (grins fiendishly as she goes over to her collection of Pretty Rocks and stuffs a large handful into her pocket)

Warnepiece said...

(Hiding rocks and chunks of brick behind my back) Okay, God is in Man, we're waiting on your omnipotent buddy's ability to identify, and then give you the answer to....drum roll please....


....What is the object in Astreja's right hand? you have 60 seconds...GO!

Warnepiece said...

Uh-oh....no god! And no God is in Man. I wonder who took who away? And I wonder "Did God is in Man eat the brown acid"?

...More tomorrow. G'nite.

south2003 said...

Haldol pm coming right up!

Shake well before taking.

god is in man said...

GOD LOVES YOU ALL

god is in man said...

well well well where are my friends hahahahaa

Astreja said...

I'm not your friend, but I'm right here. And I note that you did not answer the question about what I was holding in my hand at that moment.

I declare you a false prophet, and your god a fiction.

Let's rock!

god is in man said...

I AM NOT A PROPHET I AM A MAN OF GOD! AND JUST WHAT ARE YOU TO ME,IF NOT A FRIEND? WHAT DO YOU HOLD IN YOUR HAND? I WONT ASK GOD THINGS LIKE THAT,I ASK GOD FOR TRUTH AND UNDERSTANDING,NOT ABOUT MATH OR WHAT SOME ONE IS HOLDING IN THY HAND,BUT I TELL YOU THIS IF I ASK GOD THOSE THINGS HE WOULD SURLY TELL ME,AND THEN WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?ALL I AM SAYING IS I ASK GOD FOR THINGS TO HELP PEOPLE,AND HE WILL TELL ME,BUT THATS COOL IF YOU DONT BELEAVE THAT,I WOULD NOT EXPECT YOU TO..

.:webmaster:. said...

god is in man,

Please don't post on this site when you are drunk.

Thanks.

god is in man said...

why have thy forsaken me,you guys are right my bad

Wes said...

'scuse me? -Wes.

.:webmaster:. said...

Listen Little Rock, I know where you are. Your posts are kooky. Please leave this site.

Thanks.

god is in man said...

WHERE DID EVERY BODY GO??

god is in man said...

OH JIMMY CRACKS CRON AND I DONT CARE,JIMMY CRACKS CORN AND I DONT CARE!!! WHAT THE HELL ARE WE AT WAR???

god is in man said...

god loves you all!!! amen and amen...

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