Mice more Compassionate than Christians
By Lorena
“Mice appear to empathize with pain in other critters they're familiar with, a capacity previously thought to exist only in higher primates.
When mice saw others they knew showing pain, they responded with signs of empathy, such as staying close by, according to a new study (http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2006/06/29/mice-empathy.html).”
This proves it: mice are more compassionate than Christians.
When you are a Christian and you experience pain, the “holy” people tell you to shove it. If someone you love dies, instead of hugging you and saying, “Sorry for your loss,” they say, “He is in a better place.” The last time I heard a church person say this one, I responded, “When somebody I love dies, I am going to cry until I have no tears left, because they may be at a better place, but I am going to miss them.”
It doesn’t matter what sort of emotional pain is expressed, Christians always respond with a quick cliché and make no effort to reach out to the person with love and compassion. But the worst one, most rude, and least compassionate response I’ve received is the one from an ANONYMOUS visitor to my blog (I deleted all the insulting posts).
She said that I didn’t receive emotional healing during my 18 years of Christianity because I did not let “the lord” heal me. She said that I’ve walked away from the only one that can actually help me. She said I was bitter.
And he calls himself a loving Christian. He said he meant no offence. Geezz! Whether it is true or not, calling someone bitter is offensive anytime of day. Saying that to a person who is, admittedly, emotionally hurt is even crueler.
What’s interesting about this christian’s opinion is that it is exactly the same crap I heard for 18 years from church people. Instead of empathizing and giving the sufferer a shoulder to cry on, they blame the victim for feeling hurt.
Emotional hurts are real, as real as physical hurts. That Christians don’t understand this just shows how ignorant and brainwashed they are. They should also walk around telling the blind and the wheel-chair bound that “The lord hasn’t healed them because they didn’t let him.” It wouldn’t take long before somebody put a bullet in their stupid heads.
My ANONYMOUS visitor also said that she has a friend who was gang raped, and that she is OK. The friend is not in any emotional pain. She recovered from her pain and moved on with her life—yeah, right is what I say to that.
Another patronizing, minimizing comment I heard in church a lot. These comments were not always addressed at me. I just heard them from the pulpit, at bible studies, and, in general, around churches.
What’s so outrageous about that comment? Well, don’t Christians say all the time that god made everyone unique, that he made each person different and special, and that he understands us?
Well, we are all different, alright. Even medical treatments are customized because not everybody heals at the same rate. What works for one person does not work for another. Otherwise, why do we have doctors? They should just post general treatments at the drugstore and we could all just buy the medication there.
The cookie-cutter approach of Christianity is what makes it so nauseating. That primitive mentality that says we should all think the same and feel the same. Hey, are we humans or robots? No wonder they have such difficulty expressing love. The religion has turned them into robots.
Why would I want to be involved in a religion that completely denies my individuality and forces me to deny my hurts and fake happiness? No. I am not interested, thanks. I would rather be caged with a bunch of mice.
“Mice appear to empathize with pain in other critters they're familiar with, a capacity previously thought to exist only in higher primates.
When mice saw others they knew showing pain, they responded with signs of empathy, such as staying close by, according to a new study (http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2006/06/29/mice-empathy.html).”
This proves it: mice are more compassionate than Christians.
When you are a Christian and you experience pain, the “holy” people tell you to shove it. If someone you love dies, instead of hugging you and saying, “Sorry for your loss,” they say, “He is in a better place.” The last time I heard a church person say this one, I responded, “When somebody I love dies, I am going to cry until I have no tears left, because they may be at a better place, but I am going to miss them.”
It doesn’t matter what sort of emotional pain is expressed, Christians always respond with a quick cliché and make no effort to reach out to the person with love and compassion. But the worst one, most rude, and least compassionate response I’ve received is the one from an ANONYMOUS visitor to my blog (I deleted all the insulting posts).
She said that I didn’t receive emotional healing during my 18 years of Christianity because I did not let “the lord” heal me. She said that I’ve walked away from the only one that can actually help me. She said I was bitter.
And he calls himself a loving Christian. He said he meant no offence. Geezz! Whether it is true or not, calling someone bitter is offensive anytime of day. Saying that to a person who is, admittedly, emotionally hurt is even crueler.
What’s interesting about this christian’s opinion is that it is exactly the same crap I heard for 18 years from church people. Instead of empathizing and giving the sufferer a shoulder to cry on, they blame the victim for feeling hurt.
Emotional hurts are real, as real as physical hurts. That Christians don’t understand this just shows how ignorant and brainwashed they are. They should also walk around telling the blind and the wheel-chair bound that “The lord hasn’t healed them because they didn’t let him.” It wouldn’t take long before somebody put a bullet in their stupid heads.
My ANONYMOUS visitor also said that she has a friend who was gang raped, and that she is OK. The friend is not in any emotional pain. She recovered from her pain and moved on with her life—yeah, right is what I say to that.
Another patronizing, minimizing comment I heard in church a lot. These comments were not always addressed at me. I just heard them from the pulpit, at bible studies, and, in general, around churches.
What’s so outrageous about that comment? Well, don’t Christians say all the time that god made everyone unique, that he made each person different and special, and that he understands us?
Well, we are all different, alright. Even medical treatments are customized because not everybody heals at the same rate. What works for one person does not work for another. Otherwise, why do we have doctors? They should just post general treatments at the drugstore and we could all just buy the medication there.
The cookie-cutter approach of Christianity is what makes it so nauseating. That primitive mentality that says we should all think the same and feel the same. Hey, are we humans or robots? No wonder they have such difficulty expressing love. The religion has turned them into robots.
Why would I want to be involved in a religion that completely denies my individuality and forces me to deny my hurts and fake happiness? No. I am not interested, thanks. I would rather be caged with a bunch of mice.
Comments
emotional hurts are the REAL hurts, if you ask me. There are various ways of alleviating such hurts. Consulting christian fundamentalists is probabaly not the best one... Well, at least these people practice what they preach. Who died? I'm sorry.
In my 18 years on this planet I haven't heard anything more hateful and insulting.
You're absolutely right Lorena, the religious afterlife crap that fundies shove down your throat when something tragic happens doesn't alleviate sadness.
Or you're laying on the railroad tracks with your legs cut off and a christain walks up and says, invite jesus into your heart, you'll be ok.
The old worn-out Christian cliche`s, it's like they have taken over for their god and are now their god's direct spokesman, they like to think, that they are relaying sympathy and compassion not from them, but from a higher authority in which they believe.
Christians are like a coo-coo clock, and when the bird comes out, the Christian spews their memorized cliche`s and then quickly goes back into their self-righteous box.
Can anyone imagine what it was like 2000 years ago? People all around would jump out from a corner and shout!!!
Are you saved? You need to be born again! God is real! Jesus loves you! God bless you! I'll pray for you! All you need is a little faith! You have been deceived by the devil! Without god, you have nothing! Everyone believes in something! Satan has blinded you to the truth! The fool sayeth in his heart there is no god! You need to be washed in the blood of the lamb! You're running away from god! If there is no god, how did we get here? What happened in your life that made you hate god? You are going to hell! Without faith, you cannot understand god's word! You were not a real/true christian! Without god/jesus, life has no meaning! God is the final judge! Get right with god! Ye need to be saved! Seek ye the kingdom of god! Invite god/jesus into your heart! My heart crys out for your soul! Blessed are those that seek jesus! I'll lift your name up in prayer! Praise his holy name! A miracle is about to happen! You have a bitter heart! Let god/jesus heal your heart!
These 2000 year old worn out
phrases that chrustians use, gives them a false feeling of spiritual supremacy, and people that use them regularly, like preachers and politicians, know that christain's accept these 2000 year old cliche`s as pure fact and have been sent down from heaven above with god's holy blessing for them to use and to cast away devils and unclean spirits and are used to perceive them in a light of being saved and a real/true christain, their words are backed by god and have his stamp of approval.
Cliche's are the christian's trade-mark and they say them to tell you that they themselves are going to heaven, but you, most likely are going to hell, like this excludes you, and I am special and I'm being blessed by god, but you are not and you are somehow less than me, a christian!
A quote from Dano,
"they think we have just been stewing in our disbelief, because no one of THEIR caliber has ever come by here, someone with THEIR credentials, someone who really knows what Jesus taught about love, etc."
Christains have been TOLD that they have been annointed by their god, a great commission, to spread the gospel of jesus and those shallow cliche's, whether any of it pretains to truth or not, or to any basis or fact, it gives them, they think, some form of righteous power, they think that they have suddenly acquired new found spiritual knowledge only acessable to them, by inviting god/jesus into their hearts, so they have fervently been told.
So we've all heard those christian cliche's so many times over and over and there is nowhere in the USA that anyone has not heard those christian cliche's millions of times each, and yet they keep bouncing those stupid cliche's off of everyone. It's like every person you see, has some kind of religious agenda and a cliche` to bounce off of you, they are testing the waters to see how you respond to their cliche's, so that they can judge you, in their mind, subconsciously.
Here we are in 2006 and people still use and believe the foolish nonsense cliche's and phrases, 2000 years later, and we drive automobiles all over the US, and in buses and trains and fly airplanes, have TV and have modern conveniences, and we still have to hear some jackass spout out a 2000 year old useless cliche.
When people spout out those worn out christian cliche's, it exposes their lack of intellectual honesty.
I've been there and done that, and I regret having fell for all that nonsense myself and so now, I am so tired of hearing those ridiclous, shallow and meaningless, christian cliche's! I think it leads to religious perversion.
1)rewards and social classes in heaven.
2)eternal/everlasting torment for temporal fallen beings.
3)One kid/person survives a disease or accident & fundies say its a miracle,...how CRUEL can you get!(what about all the others who don't,...god does'nt care about them?
4)god,...demands all the world to choose correctly one messiah out of over 20 others,and hundreds of religions,...leaving the eternal destiny of a fallen human race to us? That makes god out to be a moron! etc,.,.etc,..I could list 50 more offensive doctrines of churchianity.
*If there is a God ,..He must be very offended at how he is protrayed by christians,.....of course would'nt he be above such a simple emotion?,...duh? (Even that is offensive!)
But if there were a god who rewarded people for reminding you that a loved one was in hell, she would be a real bitch.
Okay, not to derail the conversation here, but this is something that I just don't get about Christians. They claim that you cannot save yourself, only Jesus can save you. But if you don't choose to accept Jesus, you're doomed. Excuse me, but isn't that saving yourself through the act of choosing? If you really and truly could not save yourself, Jesus would be the one doing the choosing. Christians are quick to point out that you're sending yourself to eternal damnation, how come it doesn't work both ways?
Back on topic, it does tend to be the trend for Christians to kick you when you're down. The church and bible teach you to hate yourself as a human being, and the only way they can make themselves feel better even for a moment is to shoot somebody else down. Pathetic.
"Can anyone imagine what it was like 2000 years ago? People all around would jump out from a corner and shout!!!
Are you saved? You need to be born again! God is real! Jesus loves you! God bless you! I'll pray for you! All you need is a little faith! You have been deceived by the devil! Without god, you have nothing! Everyone believes in something! Satan has blinded you to the truth! The fool sayeth in his heart there is no god! You need to be washed in the blood of the lamb! You're running away from god! If there is no god, how did we get here? What happened in your life that made you hate god? You are going to hell! Without faith, you cannot understand god's word! You were not a real/true christian! Without god/jesus, life has no meaning! God is the final judge! Get right with god! Ye need to be saved! Seek ye the kingdom of god! Invite god/jesus into your heart! My heart crys out for your soul! Blessed are those that seek jesus! I'll lift your name up in prayer! Praise his holy name! A miracle is about to happen! You have a bitter heart! Let god/jesus heal your heart!"
Thank you for making me laugh, very funny! (-:
Taken from the Catholic encyclopedia:
"Despair, ethically regarded, is the voluntary and complete abandonment of all hope of saving one's soul and of having the means required for that end. It is not a passive state of mind: on the contrary it involves a positive act of the will by which a person deliberately gives over any expectation of ever reaching eternal life. There is presupposed an intervention of the intellect in virtue of which one comes to decide definitely that salvation is impossible. This last is motived by the persuasion either that the individual's sins are too great to be forgiven or that it is too hard for human nature to cooperate with the grace of God or that Almighty God is unwilling to aid the weakness or pardon the offenses of his creatures, etc.
It is obvious that a mere anxiety, no matter how acute, as to the hereafter is not to be identified with despair. This excessive fear is usually a negative condition of soul and adequately discernible from the positive elements which clearly mark the vice which we call despair. The pusillanimous person has not so much relinquished trust in God as he is unduly terrified at the spectacle of his own shortcomings of incapacity.
The sin of despair may sometimes, although not necessarily, contain the added malice of heresy in so far as it implies an assent to a proposition which is against faith, e.g. that God has no mind to supply us with what is needful for salvation.
Despair as such and as distinguished from a certain difference, sinking of the heart, or overweening dread is always a mortal sin. The reason is that it contravenes with a special directness certain attributes of Almighty God, such as His goodness, mercy, and faith-keeping. To be sure despair is not the worst sin conceivable: that evil primacy is held by the direct and explicit hatred of God; neither is it as great as sins against faith like formal heresy or apostasy. Still its power for working harm in the human soul is fundamentally far greater than other sins inasmuch as it cuts off the way of escape and those who fall under its spell are frequently, as a matter of fact, found to surrender themselves unreservedly to all sorts of sinful indulgence"
If you're so wonderfully happy what the hell are you doing on this website telling us how to live?
Don't you know that you will go straight to hell for associating with us sinners?
Get on your damned knees right now and ask god to forgive you, before he strikes you dead with a bolt of lightning and never come back to this website again.
I assume you are a Christian (If you are not, I apologize).
Imagine living in a world in which a belief contrary to your own was the rule. Imagine constantly suffering from gentle social oppression - it is not overt, it is just like being slowly beaten to death with a velvet cushion. If you complain, people call you a bad person. Everybody is a part of the conspiracy, most of them without even realizing it. The government uses it to make decisions you do not support but are forced to accept. People neither understand nor respect your beliefs, instead you are commonly considered less of a person because of it. Popular media constantly glorify the dominant system. The dominant system also constantly complains that the minorities it oppresses threaten to overthrow it - of which there is, in fact, not the slightest chance. Can you imagine that?
Now imagine being painfully aware that this dominant system is a crock of shit. It manages to be obscene, ridiculous, insidious and absurdly obvious all at once. It has poisoned more lives than any other thing since the world began, and yet people often love it more than they love their own children. It claims to be the ultimate good, while all the evidence points to the exactly opposite direction. It suppresses the expression of truly good things, and to add insult to injury it deigns to take credit for the good things that DO manage to make it through.
Do you have ANY idea what it is like to have to live in a world in which the BAD GUYS WON? It´s true. The villains won, and once they had secured their victory, they stated that they had been the good guys all along.
So if we get just a little... visceral in our complaints... please forgive us. You people are supposed to be good at forgiving.
And if you don´t want to, please have the good taste to fuck off and die.
"I am not a joyless, loveless, brainwashed moron."
Lorena said:
Geez! I could swear that when I was reading your post, I thought a moron had written it.
You definitely fit my stereotype of a christian. I'll give you that.
As for writing about how much the church hurt us, it is called "venting" you moron, and it helps us to get over the shit we caught when we were christians.
But, how can you understand that? You are just another insensitive--ignorant--christian.
Christians are supposed to forgive, so it is OK if non-christians verbally abuse you and belittle you. Didn't you know that? They are enlightened and Christians are stupid. They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words.
They post articles and tesimonies about wayward Christians, who represent a very small percentage of the overall Christian population, and then think that all Christians fit the same mold. One pastor sexually assulted an underage girl, therefore all pastors are pedophiles. One member of a church had an affair with another church member, therefore all Christians are sexual deviants and liars. See how that works.
Maybe it works the other way.
Fidel Castro is an atheist, so I guess all atheists are also communists. Sir Ian McKellen is an atheist, so I guess al atheists are gay.
Let's see how these guys feel about gross generalizations.
Wayne
Thank you for proving to me that at least some Evangelicals are brainless, loveless, joyless, brainwashed assholes. Then again, what do you expect from people like you? Closing your mind is the only thing that most of your ilk will ever be good at. For the most part, Evangelicals are some of the most judgmental, self-righteous, reason-lacking, heartless, and empathy lacking people on the face of the Earth.
Why does religion mean so much to us? Because we're recovering brainwashed fundies...not unlike the recovering alcoholic that can't stop thinking about going to the bar, the crack addict that can't stop thinking about shooting up, or the shop-aholic that is despearte to go to a mall.
I'd rather think for myself than be like you and live my life blindly kissing Biblegod's ass. I am a Deist...I do believe in a Higher Power, but it would be above human emotions, unlike the sky-fascist Biblegod. If there is a Creator, the tales of Biblegod are a slander to it.
"They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words."
Lorena responds:Sure, we are like that. But we are not claiming to have been changed by Jesus. We are not claiming that we are the "loving" people of god.
Christians, however, make all those claims of holiness, transformation, and healing--all untrue.
Not only that, you come to this site to patronize us, berate us, and to disregard/deny our experience with christianity. That is not only mean, but it is also in complete contrast to what a person who claims to have been cleansed "by the blood of the lamb" should be like.
I am sure you are a nice woman. And I am sure that you have had some tough experiences with Christians, I have too. But you do make a lot of generalizations about vast numbers of people you have never met. I did not deny that any of the testimonies on this site were false. I believe almost all of the ones I have read.
"Christians, however, make all those claims of holiness, transformation, and healing--all untrue."
You however have testified to the actions and motives of every Christian on the planet. I just think that is a little bold and brazen of you. I have met many women that are pro abortion. Does that mean they all are? I have read many accounts of women who have made false claims of rape. Does that mean all rape claims are false? Of course not. And I do not mean to make light of those scenarios. I think you see where I am going with this.
Wayne
"I have every right and every authority to generalize about christians. You WILL NOT shame me for that.
I say shame on you for not having notice what the people you hang out with are like."
You do have the "RIGHT" I suppose but I fail to see any authority you have. And you "shame" me for not having recognized what the people I hang with are like? Tell me, what are they like. What are they really like? That guy that loaned me his car for a week while mine was in the shop, what is he really like? And my friend who sat with me and my family while my father had surgery following a heart attack, what is he really like? Please tell me, I must know.
Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships.
Anyway, good luck.
Wayne
But you do make a lot of generalizations about vast numbers of people you have never met.
What about the bible making generalizations like, all have sinned, and all have fallen short of the glory of god.
Can you prove all people have sinned, how about babies that lived a month and died, have they all sinned? The bible say they do!
How about people born deaf and blind, have they sinned?
Have they fallen short of the glory of God? The bible says they do!
Wayne can you prove any of the bibles generalizations to be true?
If you appose us making generalizations, yet you cannot prove any of the bible's generalizations, yet you would rather believe the bible, than to believe people living life in reality posting on here.
This plainly shows that you are a brainwashed fundy.
"Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships."
Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.
I am denying myself FULFILLING friendships--that's downright hilarious.
I have every right to declare war on whomever I want. And the very fact that you are so pissed off means that I am making waves! So kudos to me.
You don't need to wish me luck. My good luck started the day I walked away from church--with my head up and dusting my feet--leaving behind a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites such as you.
"Listen Lorena, I am sorry you've had some bad experiences but to declare war on an entire group that you don't know is just stupid. You don't have to agree with the doctrine but to close yourself off emotionally to such a large portion of the population is foolish. you may be denying yourself some real fulfilling friendships."
Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.
I am denying myself FULFILLING friendships--that's downright hilarious.
I have every right to declare war on whomever I want. And the very fact that you are so pissed off means that I am making waves! So kudos to me.
You don't need to wish me luck. My good luck started the day I walked away from church--with my head up and dusting my feet--leaving behind a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites such as you.
This is just getting tedious. Think whatever you want. I m eant no offense and was mearly trying to offer some advice or suggestions. Because I appear to be a Christian you will refuse to listen. That's tolorance for you. I could give you a 50 dollor bill and you'd bitch cause it was green.
Lorena:
How nice of you huh? To call me foolish. How christian of you.
If someone is acting foolish then what can I say. It is not un-Christian to point it out. I tried to be nice and resonable with you but you wanted to be advisarial. Too bad. Get some help from a theripist and again...good luck
Wayne
What? You thought you would come here and I was going to end up agreeing with you? Get a life!
Yes, it is getting tedious. I belong here, you don't. So good bye. Go call one of the "meaninful friends" you have and leave me alone, you creep.
No doubt Lorena has even more reason (as if she didn't have thousands of reasons already) that Wayne has given her to have nothing to do with christians and christianity.
Lorena, aren't you glad we are on the other side of the fence now? It feels so good to be sane.
Michelle Mybell
Loving everybody and everything ain't gonna accomplish that. Turning the other cheek ain't gonna accomplish that. Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, ain't gonna accomplish that.
We humans the smartest species on earth and we have the mandate to survive and replicate ourselves. That is how we got to the top of the food chain. By being smarter, sexier, and the most determined to survive.
At this point in the evolution of life on this planet we must realize that competing religions are the biggest threat to our species. The "My God is better than your God " mentality may just be the catalyst that kills us all.
Dan (Realist)
Invariably, these people do NOT wear their religion on their sleeves, they respect other's beliefs or lack of beliefs, and do not condescend to try to convert anyone or force others to abide by religious prescripts.
On the other hand, there are fundamentalists who are actively working – through the political system, the courts, and the schools - to impose their beliefs and practices on all of us. This ilk probably constitutes less than a quarter of all the people who label themselves as Christians. (I base this estimate on the recent Gallup and Newsweek polls which show that only about 29 percent of self-labeled Christians claim the bible is the "inerrant word of god," the first requirement of fundamentalism, and, thankfully, not all fundamentalists are political bullies.) Still, the bullies do exert a lot of power in our society, far beyond what is justified by their numbers, and they are a threat.
I urge my fellow freethinkers to keep this distinction in mind. While christianity is a deluded belief system that can cause many problems, individual christians are not the enemy. BUT, there are those, i.e., those psuhy fundies, against whom we must remain vigilant.
WM: Technically, that would be exactly what Jesus said on numerous occasions. Matt 5:39: "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
However, I'll have to begrudgingly agree with Wayne here. That is an asinine peice of advice, unless you like being slapped.
Wayne: "They (atheists) are enlightened... They can be good people without Christ, as evidenced by there flaming hot posts and venomous words."
Flaming hot posts and venomous words? Paul the Apostle said, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed."— 1 Corinthians 16:22. "...those who practice such things are worthy of death..."— Romans 1:32. Jesus said, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine... mdash; Matt 7:6.
Such nice words, aren't they!
Wayne: "They post articles and tesimonies about wayward Christians, who represent a very small percentage of the overall Christian population..."
WM: Ah, no Wayne, that is a gross generalization on your part. What are posted are news articles about perverted criminals who are wearing the cloak of pastoral leadership, many getting away with their criminal behavior for years and years. Further, there has not been only one story, but rather, dozens and dozens of stories are posted here. In fact, a half-a-dozen a week could be posted, but that would get monotonous—the site could be overtaken by all of stories of perverse pastors out there. BTW, just curious, but where exactly did you get your statistics for "a very small percentage?" What is that percentage, exactly? 20%? 10%? 2%? Then, answer me this: What percentage of those pastors who are secretly criminals eventually get caught, on the average? How many are never caught? And at what point should I be concerned that there is any percentage of so-called spirit-filled, holy-ghost-led, super-pastors, who are in reality, criminals? And why is it that the Holy Spirit doesn't warn the sheep that are being victimized by these wolves? I mean, since the pastor is a criminal, he's not a real Christian™, but surely someone in the flock is a truly born-again™, filled with the power of Almighty God, right?
Wayne: "Maybe it works the other way. Fidel Castro is an atheist, so I guess all atheists are also communists. Sir Ian McKellen is an atheist, so I guess al atheists are gay."
WM: Here we agree completely. Just because someone is an atheist, it doesn't guarantee acceptable or unacceptable behavior. You could have either extreme from an atheist. Likewise, just because someone is a born-again Christian, it doesn't mean the person behaves one iota better than anyone else. Atheists, however, do not claim to have a magical, mystical, holy Sprite (sp intentional) bubbling up within then and sanctifying them. Apparently the only thing Cristians like Wayne can honestly claim to possess is a self-applauding self-righteousness.
Wayne: "Let's see how these guys feel about gross generalizations."
WM: And a nanny-nanny pooh-pooh to you too.
Naaaa.
Warren Jeffs:
"The arrest warrant for Warren Jeffs, president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has raised fears of a violent showdown between authorities and the volatile, 49-year-old leader reminiscent of the deadly 1993 standoff at Waco, Tex."
There is no test a follower can use, to check a religious leaders' instructions, especially if one claims they are a modern day prophet of god who speaks regularly to him.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2003-03-13/feature_2.html
"The number of members of the church is unknown due to the very closed nature of their religion; however, their population is estimated at between 6,000 to 10,000 in the twin communities of Colorado City, Mohave County, Arizona and Hildale, Washington County, Utah."
"Critics of this belief/lifestyle say that its practice leads unavoidably to bride shortages and likely to child marriages, incest, child abuse, and banishment of surplus boys."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints
There are people who have poor values, and live their lives accordingly. However, those who are leaders who can influence large numbers of people, educate them, and organize them to engage in bigotry, hatred, abuse, etc., are the ones who exponentially pose the greatest threat to society in general. The greater the number of people a person can influence, the greater the vigilance required by those of mainstream society to keep them in check with a nation's laws.
Thanks for your reply. I did not agree with all your points but I do appreciate the fair and equal exchange. I have no problem with atheists' viewpoints or beliefs, what I have a problem with is the intolerance that ALL faiths share, be that a faith in a deity or a faith in nothing. Atheists claim to be freethinkers and tolerant of all but go nuts when confronted with a Christian. And Christians claim to love as Christ loved but judge and criticize non-Christians and even other branches of Christianity or people in their own church (e.g. evangelicals bashing Catholics, etc.).
What I want to know is how do we get along? How can a Christian present a point to an atheist without the atheist think they are being converted? I did not try to push my beliefs on Lorena yesterday. I just pointed out that it appeared that she was generalizing a bit. IN MY OPINION (let me emphasize that) Lorena looked not at what I was saying but rather only looked at WHO was saying it.
And how do Atheists get Christians to question their faith without the Christians thinking that they are being attacked by the enemy? Most Christians will say that the enemy is firing the fiery darts at them and ignore the content of what they are hearing. There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today. Why do we all assume such an aggressive stance when dealing with the other? I am just tired of the division. I’m tired of it in my church, I’m tired of it in my office, I’m tired of it in my city. Everyone preaches tolerance but no one practices it. Why is that? Please understand, I am guilty of it as well. But what is the solution? Any thoughts?
Finally, to Lorena, I did not mean to be adversarial with you yesterday, I was frustrated with our exchange but that is not an excuse for being a smart ass.
Wayne
You ask how you can have an interchange with an atheist.
Well, I am not an atheist. I believe in God. I just don't believe in bible-god.
You cannot have an interchange with me because all you are trying to do is convert me. What else would you be trying to do? You are obviously not trying to learn anything from me because your arguments were a personal attack and did not have any logic to them.
Everything you said I've already heard before. Not once, hundreds of times. There lies the main problem. I was a christian, a devoted one, for 18 years. I heard all the sermons, all the cliches, I went to hundreds of revival services, conferences, retreats, bible school classes. When I say I heard it all, you can trust me I have.
Not even once has a christian come to this website to say something mind buggling, new, or revealing. It is all the same. That's why I call it brain washing, because all christians do--as I used to--is to parrot worn-out formulas.
Also, your "well-meaning" comments just confirmed the main premise of my article. When the "formulas" don't work for a person--such as me--then it isn't the church's fault, heavens no. It must be that the person needs therapy, as you directed me to get, or the person is derailed, crazy, or demon possesed.
So you came here to say that not all christians are like that. True, it couldn't be more true. The ones I know are like that. You are another one. You've patronized me, minimized my experience, and called me a nut. Just because I disagree with you.
It will be difficult for you to "save" us, Wayne, because all the things you are telling we already told others when we believed like you do today. We even told the stuff to ourselves when we were trying to desperately hang on to a faith that had proven faulty.
There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today.
Yet a lot wrong, does not keep you from continueing to believe the religious nonsense.
Yet, a lot wrong with christianity, is more than enough to keep us away from it and totally reject it!
We need proof that something is real, not faith, the word faith alone, is enough to convence you Wayne, that your religion is true.
Faith is a word like a carrot on a stick, it can never be reached nor obtained.
Faith does not exist, faith is only a word, not a commodity.
When people use words like faith, prayer, then we know that they have allowed another human being to doctrinate them, which is the same thing as brainwash them.
You have been brainwashed into the religious cult, because you were not born with such nonsense, you have allowed yourself to become less intelligent than you were before you became brainwashed.
Wayne you allowed this to happen, it was your doing!
We can see this, but you refuse to!
I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT YOU!!!!
I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT YOU!!!!
You do not want to be converted. You know it and I know it. I did not mean to patronize you. I have appologized several times. I will do it once more. "I am sorry. Please forgive me if I offended you." I really meant that. Really.
Now, I beleive everything you have said. I have read many of your posts and I do beleive that you have been mistreated by the church and your family and friends. All I tried to say was that you not paint all Christians with such a broad brush.
Do I think that you need therapy because you left Christianity? NO I DO NOT. Do I think you need therapy because you are nuts? NO I DO NOT. Do I think you are nuts at all? NO I DO NOT. There is a difference between being nuts and going nuts. I am sorry if I did not make that more clear. And I did not say that, or mean to say that, you were going nuts. I made a generalization that I shouldn't have.
Do I think that you need therapy because you have gone through a lot of trials? Yes. After reading your posts I beleive that ANYONE who went through what you went through would need a little help. I would myself if I endured what you did. A person can only take so much abuse before they reach maximum capacity. I understand that.
How many times do I need to extend the olive branch before you accept?
Wayne
"There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today.
Yet a lot wrong, does not keep you from continueing to believe the religious nonsense."
I do beleive in Christ. but I do not always beleive what is preached by the church today. There is a lot wrong with this country but I still love it and stand by it. We should not forsake the foundation by which this country was founded just because those in control of it are screwing it up, should we? The basic foundation of what Christ laid down work. Even the Dali Lama (sp) said that Christianity would work if everyone followed the rules.
"We need proof that something is real, not faith,"
This one always gets me. Fred, you have faith in more than you know. There is little to no proof of many of the things that you would beleive. Well, I shouldn't make presume to know what you beleive. Let me say that it has been my experience that many atheists put their faith in "science". Many of the "TRUTHS" claimed by science are still just therory. Take black holes for instance, science tells us that a black hole is a collapsed star that has so much gravity that not even light can escape it. But all we have ever done is looked at black holes. We have never sent men to the outskirts of a black hole, we have never sent a probe into a black hole to retreive data. All we have done is looked at something for thousands of light years away. We used to think the earth was flat because when we "looked" out at the ocean we saw a straight line. Now we know better.
Or take primitve evolutions of early man. Science has uncovered skulls and bones of what they assume is the early stages of human evolution and has created therories of what they beleve they are. No definite proof has been established that shows us evovling from monkeys are anything else. Personally I think it is tottally probable that God "CREATED" evolution. That it may have been part of his plan.
Anyhow, the part of your post that says I have been brainwashed I think is just lazy on your part. No one is born knowing anything. Have you been brainwashed by the establishment because you were "taught" that the earth was round? Have you been in space to see it for yourself? That example may be a bit weak but hopefully you get my point. "WHATEVER" you beleive is because someone else has taughtit too you. I have looked at all the evidence in support of, and against Christianity. And I have made my choice. You may not agree with the choice, but that is not evidence that I have been brainwashed.
Peace to you
Wayne
You continue to patronize me. Let me explain.
You may have noticed already that I ain't stupid. I actually have a VERY high IQ.
DO YOU REALLY THINK I LEFT CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE A FEW FEEBLE, GULLIBLE, NAIVE PEOPLE OFFENDED ME?
NO. NO. NO. NO.
There are people like that everywhere! Absolutely everywhere.
In fact, my main claim against christianity is that they are JUST PEOPLE, not different from anyone else.
I left christianity because I came to understand that your holy book is full of folktales that, while beautiful, are not inspired by any god.
I do not believe Jesus was god, and I reject the code of morals that christianity upholds--such as those about gay’s and women’s rights.
I could write a book on reasons why I left the faith apart from the 10000 morons I met in church. Visit my blog and spend some time reading. But do not leave any messages because I’ll delete them.
I have been in therapy for a looong time. In fact, leaving christianity was a result of the emotional healing I reached. Being able to write about the stuff is also a sign of healing.
In fact, I believe most people that grace the churches with their presence on Sunday morning need therapy. Were they to do that, the churches would be empty.
I hope I make myself clear.
You need to stop apologizing, because you haven't done anything wrong.
You did exactly what your faith asks you to do, and said the exact thing your faith expects you to say—I used to do just that when I was a Christian.
You acted as a good "christian." Unfortunately, your belief system is illogical, and anytime you use it to the letter, you will end up offending somebody.
Don't worry. I am not offended. I am a happy ex-christian in therapy. I do not need your mercy or your concern. I am well on my way to a happy, fulfilled life.
I don't see how I am patronizing you. I guess our definitions of the word differ to a degree.
You keep talking about why you left and that I won't get you to convert. Never did I even try to do so. I feel like if I said the exact same things to but signed them "Carol the feminist" or "Shannon the atheist lesbian" that you would have responded totally different.
Bye.
Wayne
Most nominals are quite rational people, use their minds to solve things nearly always. Most nominals do not get hung up on what a person believes with regards to religion...many nominals see nothing wrong with people in differing faith traditions. For most nominals, church is a place you go for weddings, baptisms, funerals, Christmas and Easter...and for those that go to church every week, for most, it's just what you do every sunday before the NFL game or the NASCAR race comes on TV. Most nominals believe in science...they accept evolution, the Big Bang, people being born gay, an Earth several billions of years old, and will have no qualms about watching that History Channel special on Charles Darwin, or reading a National Geographic article. Most nominals aren't sexual prudes, and for those that are, it usually isn't because of religion...you'll find nominals reading Playboy or Hustler, watching porno DVDs with their spouse or themselves, and having sex. Some nominals are politically liberal...many probably voted for Kerry in 2004, are pro-choice, anti-Iraq War, anti-Bush, and are planning to vote Democratic in the elections this November. When something bad happens, most nominals do try to give a lending hand, and use the cliches sparingly. And, most nominals are loving, tolerant people, who do not hate gays, who do not hate those believe differently from them, who are not judgmental, who do not think that they have all the answers, who accept people for being different or believing different from them. Nominals realize that there is no system or set of beliefs that fits everybody.
Evangelicals, on the other hand, are a whole other beast. There may be some Evangelicals that have a loving heart and aren't super-judgmental and intolerant, but I have yet to meet one, and I've met hundreds of them. Reason is OK for fundies...so long as you don't rock the boat. Evangelicals are intolerant of other beliefs...they hate and make broad-brush generalizations about those that believe in other religions, and often, go after Christians in other denominations as well, especially Catholics (that nut Jack Chick anybody)? For most of the fundies I've met, science is bad, and to be avoided. No evolution, no Big Bang, none of that. Also, Evangelicals are never very understanding of people, due to how some have been brainwashed. When somebody has a problem, instead of trying to fix it, all they do is throw worn-out cliches at the problem. Many Evangelicals lack compassion and empathy for non-Evangelicals...trust me, I've seen it firsthand. Many Evangelicals get a rise out of bugging, bothering, and upseting non-Evangelicals. Instead of responding with love in life, at least some Evangelicals instead respond with hatred and anger, especially towards gays, but in effect to anybody that is not like them, including other Christians who are more tolerant, loving, rational and understanding than them.
I really don't have a problem with the nominals at all...hell, I'm friends with many of them. It's the Evangelicals, with their use of cliches over love, intolerance over love, cliches over understanding, and a cookie-cutter approach to a very complex Universe, that I do not like.
Ah, Wayne, that's the best answer you can give? I was quite specific in a number of points. Which one or ones do you not agree with, and why?
I think you confuse universal tolerance with tolerance within a narrow domain. What I mean is this: Would you tolerate an atheist coming into your home uninvited to argue with you about your theology, or anything else? Would you tolerate a Mormon, JW, a Oneness Christian, or a judgmental Independent Baptist coming into your home to argue with you?
Well perhaps you would tolerate that kind of insensitivity. Most people would find that type of behavior—barging into a someone's home to preach, teach, advise, etc.—as more than just a little rude.
The stated purpose of this website is to encourage those who have found Christianity to be a festering crock of dung. Since the purpose of this site is clearly stated, and Lorena is one of those who has swallowed her share of Christian defecation, enough to make her ill, and she is here for encouragement, how exactly are you fulfilling the stated purpose of this site—encouraging her?
You talk of tolerance? Do you mean Christians should be allowed to build churches of all descriptions on nearly every corner? Do you mean that Christians should be allowed any employment they are qualified for, throughout all society? Do mean that Christians should have entry to any higher schools of education they choose? Do you mean that Christians should be allowed to serve in political office? Wayne, I think there is a liberal dose of tolerance within Western society. Christians are not kept out of any part of our society. I think what you're talking about is having everyone love Christianity and just go along with whatever it does without making comments. Do you think we should tolerate violent Jihad by Islamics without comment? If not, why not? Would you quietly tolerate it if cars drove by your home, at all hours of the day and night, with stereos blaring so loudly that it shakes the windows of your home? It's only music after all. It's only sound. It's also annoying and rude. One car, no problem. 50 cars, and it quickly becomes intolerable. Many more than 50 Christians have dropped their load on this site. Tolerating my neighbor because he goes to church three times a week and invites me constantly, is one thing. Agreeing with him, and eventually telling him to stop inviting me, is not intolerance. Even telling him off is only letting him know that I don't appreciate the evangelical pushiness, that's all it is. What about the Christian tolerating my disinterest in religion and knocking it off when he's on my property or in my home?
You see, Wayne, there are probably thousands of Christian websites where Christians can tell each other how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how awful it is to be an atheist, but even one site that promises to assist people who are leaving Christianity is absolutely intolerable, isn't it? You want those who have left Christianity to tolerate Christianity, not only in deed, but in word, thought and emotion. I suggest you take your own advice and give Lorena the space she craves. Tolerate her apostasy. Leave her, and people like her, alone. Besides, is your God so weak that he/she/it can't influence Lorena without your help?
Think about it Wayne. Think about it.
Oh, and off topic: If you choose to continue posting, try something new. Try clicking on the radio button that is clearly labeled "Other." If you click the "Other" button you can type in your name (Wayne) and you won't show up as "Anonymous" on every post. Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention.
"Take black holes for instance, science tells us that a black hole is a collapsed star that has so much gravity that not even light can escape it. But all we have ever done is looked at black holes. We have never sent men to the outskirts of a black hole, we have never sent a probe into a black hole to retreive data. All we have done is looked at something for thousands of light years away. We used to think the earth was flat because when we "looked" out at the ocean we saw a straight line. Now we know better."
Now we know better, but still there are those that should know better, but choose not to, like you Wayne, also a scientest may propose a theory that blackholes may exist, but we tend not to worship a theory. Like Jesus may have existed and therefore we hope he did, and we should direct our worship towards him.
Now having said all that, do you really believe there exists a god that created the whole universe in just six days, including over 125 billion galaxies with multitrillion stars and planets rotating around Suns, and the best solution that this god could come up with to save people from their sins that a god allowed to exist in the first place, by creating a evil angel, is by sending an angel to inseminate a virgin girl and then have him nailed to cross and have him murdered, because by ourselves we cannot save ouselves from our sins that this god allowed to happen in the first place.
Are you really this crass?
Are you really so desperate to believe in such a nonsense fairytale, do you have such low esteem that you allow someone who wrote about such foolishness over 2000 years ago, are you that willing or scared not to believe such nonsense?
Are you really living in that much fear?
Surely there's more to Wayne than that!
Do you really believe that there exist a god that ignorant?
I didn’t answer your questions because they seemed rhetorical. According to your “World Religions Chart” I would bet that only a very small percentage of the nearly 2 billion that claim Christianity are represented on your site. And no, I don’t know how many pastors and ministers are secretly criminals and haven’t been discovered yet. Did you expect me to know that? I can’t read the future either or move small objects with my mind, just in case you had some other silly questions to ask.
This site has been developed with the intent of “supporting those who had shed Christianity”. I think that’s great. Whether or not I think it is right or wrong those who have left Christianity feel they need support and I am glad they feel like they have a place to go. But I have reread my posts and I can not see where I stated that Christianity is the only way, or that ex-Christians need to come back, or anything like that. Where did I say that? I don’t want to convert anyone. You all weighed the evidence and made your choice. Fine, good, end of story.
All I mean by tolerance is this. Many of the ex-ians on this site tote themselves as “freethinkers”. They have escaped the mind cult and freed their inner selves. But I fail to see how they act any different than the Christians they left behind. They complain that Christians are hate-filled and unloving, and then bash and slander a Christian when they wander onto this site. If I had portrayed myself as an atheist and told “someone” that it may be wrong for us to generalize Christians in a particular way it would have been met with thought and consideration. But because a Christian said it then we totally disregard the content and focus only on the messenger. This to me is the very embodiment of intolerance. How is it any different than any other sort of bigotry? Judge the outside, ignore the inside. Christians do this as well, all too often.
Wm: You see, Wayne, there are probably thousands of Christian websites where Christians can tell each other how wonderful it is to be a Christian and how awful it is to be an atheist, but even one site that promises to assist people who are leaving Christianity is absolutely intolerable, isn't it? You want those who have left Christianity to tolerate Christianity, not only in deed, but in word, thought and emotion. I suggest you take your own advice and give Lorena the space she craves. Tolerate her apostasy. Leave her, and people like her, alone. Besides, is your God so weak that he/she/it can't influence Lorena without your help?
Think about it Wayne. Think about it.
I have no problem with this site. Support each other all you need. Rally more to your cause. It really doesn’t bother me. That is the beauty of this country. We all can chose. I NEVER pushed Christ onto anyone. Like everyone else here I stated my OPINION; unlike everyone else I was met with opposition. I do not expect everyone to tolerate Christianity as you describe, I expect everyone to tolerate it the same way I am expected to tolerate heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, democrats, republicans, independents, blacks, whites , red, yellow, tall, short, fat, thin, smart, dumb, handicapped, young, old, citizens, immigrants, foreigners, illegal’s, etc…
Wm: "Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention."
Like everything else in the universe your point of veiw determines everything. Virtually nothing, outside of mathmatics maybe, is universally held as "truth" or "fact". Except maybe the "Other" button.
Wayne
I can't sit here and explain the creation of the universe to you. I really don't know. I hope to find out one day. But explain to me how the "God Creation" theory is any more or less credible than the "Big Bang" theory. God creating the universe is absurd but the big bang makes perfect sense. Tell me if I have this right....
..."A long, long time ago there was a bunch of dust and gas just floating and then in an instant there was billions of galaxies with rotating solar systems and planetary bodies and comets and stars and everything came together perfectly in that perfect instant."
That sounds more Devine than the creation theory. I really have no idea how we got here. We both no what I believe the answer to be so I won’t bother sharing it.
You have called what I believe, or what you assume I believe, to be nonsense. I don’t see how it is any less logical then “we all evolved from the primordial ooze”; “that all life came from the same single celled organisms”. Can you add more credence to one theory or the other? Perhaps God INTENDED for us to evolve from the ooze. How about that?
Why is what you believe so much more logical than what I believe? How is your complete lack of knowledge about the universe any more credible than my complete lack of knowledge about the universe?
As far as you other questions I will not bother with a detailed answer. I am not afraid; I do not have low self-esteem. I have coped with ignorance the same way you have coped with yours: I found a solution that makes sense to me and I’m going with it. When you can prove the “Big Bang”, hand me a vile of the primordial ooze, or show me definitive proof that we evolved from dust with no Devine assistance, then, and only then, will you have any cause to tell me what I believe is wrong.
Wayne
My whole point is, just because something cannot be explained, just as the prophets tried their damnedest to do, over 2000 years ago, does not automatically revert by default to a god, because they attributed every unknown to a god, just as you're trying to do.
I do not believe that a celestral god that created all things, including a Satan evil being, when all a god would have to do by seeing that what he created, was evil and wrong and could have destroyed all evil just by snaping his fingers or by wishing it to be gone, and the only way he can atone for sins that he allowed in the first place, is by sending an angel with god's sperm to inseminate a virgin girl and then having him murdered, this will atone for man's sins that god allowed to exist in the first place.
The whole Jesus story is just ludicous and pathetic, it would take a very primative person to come up with such ignorant nonsense, as it would take someone primative in their thinking to believe in such nonsense in the first place.
The answer is to the creation of the universe is that no one knows and has never known and will never know.
It has absolutely nothing to do with a god.
Get over it Wayne.
Fred said: "The answer is to the creation of the universe is that no one knows and has never known and will never know.
It has absolutely nothing to do with a god."
Those too statements kind of contradict each other, wouldn't you say Fred. You state that you, nor anyone, will ever know. But then you presume to know, or at least know what it isn't. To sum up, you don't know and can't know what it is but you do know what it isn't......Right.
As for the rest of your post, you just repeated that which you already said without adding anything new. Instead of answering a question posed to you you turned it on me trying to avoid answering. I asked you what you beleived. Try it again.
You should probably run for public office.
Also your god destroyed the first generation of people because their hearts were continually wicked, why were their hearts continually wicked? Because of the Satan figure that your god created, but it would have been much easier to have eliminated the evil that your god supposedly created in the first place, so that proves that your bible god loves Satan more than humans.
Ok whats it going to take to atone for the sins tha Satan has created, since Jesus atones for man's sins, how about Satan, man needs salvation right now, but how about Satan, he needs to be forgiven right now, why does Satan get to continue to sin, but man has to be saved right now, why does your Satan get to keep sinning?
Because your God loves Satan more than man!
Define intolerance, please.
"Atheists claim to be freethinkers and tolerant of all but go nuts when confronted with a Christian."
Generalization of Atheists. I don't categorize based on religion, however, I discern between thought and philosophy. Christianity just happens to fall in that category of those who marvel in their ability to enforce ignorance to the greatest extent possible, while supporting a leader to give them all the answers while here on earth - pastor, priest, etc.
"And Christians claim to love as Christ loved but judge and criticize non-Christians and even other branches of Christianity or people in their own church (e.g. evangelicals bashing Catholics, etc.)."
Once again, not one christian living today, knows or ever knew Jesus, they are involved with words, and how they allow those words to influence themselves.
"What I want to know is how do we get along? How can a Christian present a point to an atheist without the atheist think they are being converted?"
Christian states, "I don't believe the bible to be the divine word of god, and therefore, I am not following the bible when it tells me to proeslytize". Sort of a paradox, no?
"I did not try to push my beliefs on Lorena yesterday. I just pointed out that it appeared that she was generalizing a bit. IN MY OPINION (let me emphasize that) Lorena looked not at what I was saying but rather only looked at WHO was saying it."
When a person claims to be christian, its usually understood that they accept the bible as the divine word of a god, and in that book, it demands the conversion of people to christianity. In the day the passages were written, it was to convert the Jews, but, that privilege has been extended to anyone with two ears, or can read sign language.
"And how do Atheists get Christians to question their faith without the Christians thinking that they are being attacked by the enemy?"
The Atheist view, is "not" to proselytize. When a person says, "I'm an Atheist", they are not saying, "Hey, I'm going to remove religious belief off the face of the earth." The ignorant, whose point of view is to convert people, find Atheists as roadblocks to their agenda, period. Atheism, to a christian evangelical, however, is either someone who just hasn't met their personal god, or a road block for their conversion agenda, that needs to be removed.
"Most Christians will say that the enemy is firing the fiery darts at them and ignore the content of what they are hearing. There is a lot wrong with the Christian faith that is being practiced today."
Really, and... what would be the "right" way to practice the christian faith?
"Why do we all assume such an aggressive stance when dealing with the other? I am just tired of the division. I’m tired of it in my church, I’m tired of it in my office, I’m tired of it in my city. Everyone preaches tolerance but no one practices it. Why is that? Please understand, I am guilty of it as well. But what is the solution? Any thoughts?"
Yes, those who refuse to engage in higher order reasoning, with varied levels of information, will continue to churn the same information in their skull, and mindlessly act upon that information. Lets see, yes, there are many people who don't have the means, nor the initiative to grow intellectually, by ingesting new information with an open mind, however, there appears to be entire organizations, who impose on their followers the notion that being ignorant is something to be proud of, as all will be taken care of in the end.
Wayne, you stated categorically that the percentage of Christians who commit crimes are a very small minority. Since you stated that as a fact, I asked you to back up your statement, that's all. I'm glad to see you can admit you are prone to ignorant exaggeration.
Wayne said: Many of the ex-ians on this site tote themselves as “freethinkers”. They have escaped the mind cult and freed their inner selves.
Ah, but Wayne, I would guess that very few who escape a mind control cult easily shake it's influences, wink, and quickly become easy going about it all. I've observed that it generally takes a considerable amount of time, and venting, and even counseling, for most people to get over years of being lied to and deceived. Wouldn't you agree?
Wayne said: Like everyone else here I stated my OPINION; unlike everyone else I was met with opposition.
Dear Wayne. Let me state it again: THIS SITE IS FOR EX-CHRISTIANS!!!
DUH! What the fuck did you expect?
Wayne, when I said "Like most of the material on this site, it's right there in front of you. You just have to pay attention," I was pointing out that you didn't even notice the "Other" button although it was right there in plain site. You didn't notice it until someone pointed out to you—you just couldn't see it on your own, although it was right there! If you can't see something so simple and obvious, it seems likely that you can't see other things that are equally obvious.
Let me re-state something that should be more than obvious by now. This site is to encourage ex-Christians. Again, I ask you, how are you encouraging ex-Christians with any of your posts?
What is painfully obvious to everyone here, except perhaps you, is that all you are doing here is picking at the painful sores of people who have been damaged by a cruel cult—YOUR CRUEL CULT—and you expect to be given a big hug and kiss?
Wayne, wake up.
Why would an all loving and just god whom could destroy all evil and wickedness and Satan right now and every living being could live in peace and harmony for ever and man would not ever have to die.
Because non of the Bible stories are true, it's the total fabrication of primative man.
Neither a god nor Jesus ever wrote any part of the Bible, why not?could not God nor Jesus spell or write?
No the bible is the total fabrication of a man.
A God is man's best widely acceptable answer for the unknown.
There is no god, there's much more to it all than a weakly man made god.
It will never be known by humans what caused the universe to be created, nor will it ever be known how it was created.
By not knowing, forces man to create an answer that is widely accepted by people not willing to think for themselves, it's much easier to let someone else explain why they think a god created the universe.
The universal answer for all things unknown to man is a weak ignorant emotional sadistic murdering god.
Hmm...
So, if I'm reading this right, the universe is a huge and complex mindless machine. Therefore it could not have happened unless a huge and complex mind created it. Obviously huge and complex things cannot exist unless they are created. God is huge and complex, but he/she/it requires no creator.
Paradoxically, I think I get it.
Oh, and Devine is a city in Texas. I think the word you want is divine, obviously.
You don't know, yet, you have no problem attempting to model the Atheist POV, and compare/contrast it with a creationist POV.
Your post, appears to be an attempt to bait those who can speak to science into this thread. Maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, the Universe and creation. Here are a few questions, when you finally form your answer(s), come back, and discuss, until then, its really not worth the time and effort.
1-Is the universe a "closed", or "isolated" system?
"In thermodynamics, an isolated system, as contrasted with a closed system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings." "Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality, but real systems may behave nearly this way for finite (possibly very long) times."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system
"In thermodynamics, a closed system, as contrasted with an isolated system, can exchange heat and work, but not matter, with its surroundings. Here, it is assumed that a thermally isolated (insulated) system can be realized. It is a useful idealization, even if it can only be asymptotically approximated."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_system
The big bang theory never says anything about the universe being perfectly formed in an instant. Parts of the universe (planets, galaxies) are still moving outward; so in a way, the universe is still forming.
The worst kind of argument to have is one with someone who Just Doesn’t Get It. The debates that find your well-reasoned points countered with the tautological equivalent of “nuh-uh” or “because, that’s why” may not make you feel like you lost the argument, but you certainly don’t feel like you won, either. Especially when the topic you’re disagreeing on isn’t even something that should be up for debate.
That’s the overriding sense one suspects the writers of the essays in "INTELLIGENT THOUGHT" were experiencing when they put pen to paper. More than one of them, I’m sure, muttered to himself: “I can’t fucking believe I’m having to write this.”
These essayists are scientists, leading lights in their field, and possibly some of the smartest people in the world; the topic is “Intelligent Design,” and you can imagine the ease with which these men (and woman) demolish the wobbly speciousness of the pseudoscience behind ID’s creationist claptrap. Though some of the scientists readily admit to playing right into ID-promulgators’ hands — the whole trick behind getting ID taught in schools is to pretend that there’s a “legitimate debate in the scientific community” — in the end, they don’t seem to care.
By elegantly and eloquently explaining the airtight science behind Darwinism (not a theory anymore, by the way, but a scientifically proven fact) and deftly swatting away the distortions and dogma that define ID, Brockman and the other contributors to Intelligent Thought may not end the “debate” with this book, but they’ve managed to provide an excellent and readable primer on evolution and the power of the scientific method.
Dan (Who just liked this advertisement for the book)
You seem to think that universal expansion ("Big Bang") and evolutionary theory are in dispute.
They are not.
Almost 80 years ago, both Georges Lemâitre (the famous priest/phycisist) and Alex Friedmann (a Russian scientist) had independently concluded from Einstein´s theory of relativity that the universe was expanding.
It wasn´t until later that Edwin Hubble discovered from his astronomical observations that the universe was indeed expanding.
Later still, Ralph Alpher and George Gamow did extensive work on nucleosynthesis and explained the mass relationship of elements in the universe (for instance, the abundance of hydrogen).
They also predicted cosmic background microwave radiation.
This radiation was subsequently and inadvertently discovered in 1965 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson.
Finally, the variations in intensity in this background radiation that would explain the existence of galaxies were discovered.
The point is - the fact that the Big Bang (so-called, disdainfully, by the eminent opponent of the theory, Fred Hoyle) is occurring, is responsible for the way the universe is and started 13.7 billion years ago, plus or minus only three per cent, is simply not in dispute. Any protestation of the opposite at this stage of the game is comical.
Then, evolution. Given the structure of DNA and the circumstances of life, it would be highly surprising if evolution did not occur.
But the evidence in favor is in any case overwhelming. The gigantic mass of fossils (yes, including transitionals), the anatomical similarities, the fact that all life forms in the world are based on the same four bases (A, C, G and T), biological changes that have been observed both in nature and in lab conditions - it is insurmountable.
In fact, there is genetic evidence for the notion that humans and modern apes have the same ancestors.
Retroviruses are viruses which sometimes get stuck in the DNA of the host; in fact, the rate at which these accumulate is sometimes used as a sort of "clock" to see how much time has passed since two species seperated.
And humans and chimpanzees have a number of retroviruses in common at the same places on their genome.
This is simply incontrovertible proof that humans and modern apes descended from the same being... about 5 million years ago, it is estimated. The fossil evidence supports this.
So... please do not claim that these matters are contentious. They are not. They haven´t been for some time.
If you want to debate something contentious, try the actual beginning of life. That´s a pretty fertile subject.
Not that it really matters, ut I did know how to use the "Other" button. You have scolded many others in the past for not using it. I personally do not see the big difference between identifing yourself in the begining of a post of in the end. Either way you knew who I was. Making a big deal out of it seems a bit petty.
I suppose the fact that I misspelled "divine" is somehow proof that I don't know what I am talking about and worthy of ridicule. If you use spell check then that somehow qualifies you as an expert in spiritual matters, right?
wm: Wayne insists he is not here to preach or convert anyone. Then he goes on about how a god creating the universe makes sense, and implies that having a god theory should make so much sense to everyone.
I just said that it makes as little or as much "logical" sense as any of the other origin theroeries out there.
Many of the other Christians who post here eventually get tired of it and leave. Usually they insult you guys before they leave and are then labeled "True Christians". I have to admit that for me it has been similar to going to the "Hall of Presidents" attraction at Disney and trying to have a conversation with the animitonics. You can ask them questions but they will never answer, They just spout what they are programmed to say.
Wayne
Fred said: Wayne is backed into a corner and is grasping for straws...lol
Fred, you didn't answer one question. You just contridicted yourself by claiming you don't have the answers but then claiming that you "know" my answers are wrong. Then you get confident becasue the big wm fought a fight for you and then sent you back out to play.
No kidding.
Really? Just as much logical sense as any of the theories? Theories? What theories are those? That there is a magical deity floating around in another dimension, creating stuff, rewarding those who get the right religion, and eternally damning those who don't get the right religion?
I don't think "theory" is the proper word when talking about Creationism. I think the word you're looking for when talking about Creationism, is myth.
The Beginning of All Things.
Of all the ancient creation myths out there, which one(s) do you accept as "theory?"
Wayne said: "You can ask them questions but they will never answer, They just spout what they are programmed to say."
Now that's an ironic comment. Okay, I'll bite: Who do you think is programming me to say these things that I am saying? What question(s) did you ask me that I didn't answer? Please be specific.
" I just said that it makes as little or as much 'logical' sense as any of the other origin theroeies out there."
That's like saying that the stork is as "logical" of an explanation for where babies come from, as human beings procreating them. There's gaggles of scientific/medical evidence available to prove the latter process, not to mention, even if we don't fully understand how it works, we can still SEE the whole process taking place. On the other hand, no one has SEEN another human being materialize out of thin air. And to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever SEEN a giant frickin' bird swoop down and drop off an infant to some anxiously waiting parents. Why?...because like Creationism, it is a MYTH.
Evolution is "only a theory" like Atomic theory is "only a theory". They are both theory AND fact. Conversely, Creationism...or essentially "magic", is neither. Get over it.
Hypothesis: "A concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Theory: "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Fact: "A concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
A hypothesis, is not a "fact" or a "theory". A "theory" must describe phenomena in the "natural" world, and incorporates "facts", and "laws", discerned through some form of "testing", that creates predictable results that can be validated. A "theory" that continues to gain support, through testing, can become a "fact" over time.
All inquiry is equal in the very beginning or observation, as assumptions are made and hypothesis created. Some hypothesis, however, provide explanations that leave the natural realm, and can "never" be tested, as "we" live in this "natural" reality.
Occult:
-Supernatural: supernatural forces and events and beings collectively;
-Supernatural practices and techniques;
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Myth: "A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Legend: "A legend (Latin, legenda, "things to be read") is a narrative of human actions that are perceived both by teller and listeners to take place within human history and to possess certain qualities that give the tale verisimilitude."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend
--A person "assumes" supernatural causes and effects are legitimate explanations for phenomena = An unverifiable Belief
--A person doesn't "assume" supernatural causes and effects are legitimate explanations for phenomena until evidence is forthcoming = A verifiable Belief
--A person who maintains unverifiable beliefs = No hypothesis required, any answer can be a correct answer for a question, as there is no possibility for testing.
--A person who maintains verifiable beliefs = By default, can create hypotheticals, that can be tested and verified.
--A Jesus with supernatural abilities = Legend
--A narrative about a legendary individual(s) = Myth
--Supernatural based religions = Occult
--Religions with supernatural rituals in their doctrine, i.e., baptism for the dead, prayer, etc. = Occult
Christianity, is based on a legendary Jesus, whose mythical narrative outlines the worldview of historical Jews and levant persons. The christian practices that incorporate supernatural elements, create an occultist atmosphere that they are initiated into, i.e., baptism (the release of original sin/damnation, a soul/ghost cleansing), etc.
The creation of a cosmological/creationist "theory" is impossible, because at some point in the inquiry, the assumption of a supernatural/unverifiable element is incorporated. This incorporations totally negates the purpose of a theory, which is, to create a set of rules, laws, facts, that "predictably" explain phenomenon in a consistent manner. Once one assumes a supernatural element, the number of explanations for a phenomenon become infinite, i.e., zeus, osiris, isis, santa clause, etc., as all untestable explanations become viable answers for the inquiry.
The only consistency I have found in christianity, is the ability for groups of people to stick to the mythical narrative and legend of Jesus, "not" to discern truth as in theory or inquiry, but to discern the social classes of a community. Christians who want to discuss "theory", and testable predictability, are attempting (although, ignorantly most time) to move away from their own theology based on the unknowable (god), and untestable belief system, they have accepted as "fact".
I already answered your questions above that you are unwilling to accept, these are the universal answers.
"It will never be known by humans what caused the universe to be created, nor will it ever be known by humans how it was created.
By not knowing how the universe was created, forces man to create an answer that is widely accepted by people not willing to accept a non answer, it's much easier to let someone else explain why they think a god created the universe."
You cannot prove me wrong Wayne."
The only reason that you accept the god answer is because you have been promised a selfish reward, just like you stayed up waiting for Santa to reward you for being a good little boy. The only difference is that you've traded your Santa reward for a here-after reward. Both times you got snookered in. By denying my ultimate truths, you're not being honest with yourself, I'm being honest with you, but you refuse to recognize and accept it, because of your deep down childhood fear. Beliefs and religions originate out of childhood fear. You cannot prove me wrong!
The universal answer for all things unknown to man and Wayne is his weak, ignorant, emotional, sadistic, kind, just and loving, murdering god, sounds just like a man, doesn't it Wayne?
Now prove me wrong.
I know that you "beleive" that you are right, just as I "beleive" I am right.
Fred: "You cannot prove me wrong Wayne."
Correct. And you can not prove me wrong. You can't prove he doesn't exist just like I can't prove that he does. We are at a bit of a crossroads here. If you can accept that neither of us "knows" or "doesn't know" the answers or possibilities that may be, then at least we can agree to disagree. If however you think that you have somehow proven your case or point then you're simply a dope. Sorry, but there it is.
Wayne
Wayne
Actually, your bible supports the belief that an infinite number of gods exist. So, wayne, which "god" do you believe in, and "how" do you tell them apart? If you can't, then, your belief is what those with an education call... absurd. The word "god", is meaningless in the midst of so many choices of other gods, where no other god can be discerned from the one you claim. So, its not that anyone has to "disprove" your "god", all one has to do, is show how useless, and "absurd" the "word" itself is, and thus, how meaningless it becomes in conversation.
Psalm 136:2 "O give thanks unto the God of gods."
Psalm 97:7 "Worship him, all ye gods."
1 Samuel 28:13 "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth."
Judges 11:24 "Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?"
Joshua 24:14 "Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served."
If you want more references in your own bible, for "other" gods, let me know. Until then, its pretty clear your belief in "The" god, is lost, in an infinite realm of other gods, and is meaningless in conversation, and in utility.
If you attempt to define "god", then you are using "your" personal preferences and knowledge, and thus, your god reflects "you", and "you" and your "god", are one and the same. Lets see, how many gods are there, when people start defining and attempting to understand "god"?
John 10:33-34 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
So, Wayne, your god can not be known, unless you become a "god" unto yourself. If you refuse to make such a grand gesture, then of course, even "you" can not claim to "know" god, or prove god. Thus, no one here need chase down research to prove your god as false, as "you", are all the proof one need. I don't need to prove your "god" doesn't exist, I just need to prove that "you" can't possibly "know" what you claim with any validity. So, validate your claim, are you a "god", or not?
If you are a "god", Wayne, well, then, join the ranks of the Popes. If you are not "god", well, then it appears you are not qualified to make claims about things you do not know.
"The word "God," is meaningless in the midst of so many choices of other gods, where no other God can be discerned from the one you claim. So, its not that anyone has to "disprove" your "God", all one has to do, is show how useless, and "absurd" the "word" itself is, and thus, how meaningless it becomes in conversation"
Anonymous # ONE,
And I mean that. You are the number 1 Anonymous in my book for your clear and concise explanation of the futility of trying to prove or disprove anything about the word God, since it means something different to everyone on earth.
To some it means nothing, to others everything, and to thinking people it is just a word we use when we attempt to explain the unexplainable.
Maybe there is an essence that lives in us, and when we die, it returns to what created it, and THEN knows everything.
I personally don't think WE, the most newly arrived version of Bozo, is going to be handed a perfect explanation of how the universe was created.
Dan (Sitting here in front of this computer trying to comprehend "everything" is making my TAIL BONE hurt)
I guess Bonzo, not Bozo, was the name of the distinguished primate that furthered the career of Ronald Reagan, and assured his place in history.
Bozo is more aptly related to the career of a later inhabitant of the white house.
Dan (Agnosticusfallabilus)
Fred,
I know that you "beleive" that you are right, just as I "beleive" I am right.
No you're wrong again Wayne, I do not believe that I am right, I(know) that I am right, there is a big difference, and I do not agree to disagree with you, because this is what you want, an empass, but it cannot happen.
Now if you will just be calm and read on. The only place a g-o-d can exist, is in the thoughts of the human brain, and the word god is only in conjecture, meaning the word "god" is only planted there by hearing, you, nor anyone else, were not born with a knowledge of any god or gods.
Let me explain, had you never heard the word "god" with your ears, you would never have a way to imply that the word "god" exists. The only reason that you think a god exists is because you've been told by another human being whom you've entrusted,(for some reason, unknown to anyone) to have more knowledge about a god than you, therefore you are willing to accept in your mind, that a god exists.
So far I've not had to stoop as low as you and insinuate name calling, from previous posters, it seems self evident.
That makes me wonder if you also believe in Leprechauns, Sasquatch, Men from Mars, Lilliputians, faeries, talking snakes, flying horses, and three-headed dogs. If not, why not? You certainly can't prove they don't exist. And guess what, lots of people did, or still do, believe those things exist.
It is the responsibility of the person making fantastic claims to provide the supporting evidence for those fantastic claims. It is not up to the skeptic to provide evidence supporting the skepticism.
I can transform myself into a eagle! Believe me! Believe me! However, it only happens when no one is looking, so you'll have to take my word on it. Skeptical? Well you can't prove I don't turn into an eagle when no one is looking—naaaaaa!
If people stopped talking about things they are not qualified to discuss, how accross earth would religion spread. Its the religious mission to create salespeople (missionaries) to sell a product better than its competition (other religious denominations). Absurdly enough, there are people who "buy" the product (god), from a salesperson (missionary) who is not "qualified" to speak of such things in absolute terms or with any solid foundation.
I wonder how many religious people, would make a medical recommendation to a cancer patient, knowing they are not "qualified" to give such advice. Does the religious person suggest it takes "courage" to witness to others?
How courageous is it, to provide unqualified advice to a cancer patient. Suggesting, that religious people who witness, are just trying to keep up with the Jones' of other religions, elevates the "competition" of religion above the actual information being presented. There is nothing more amusing than observing two unqualified people discuss something with so much vigor.
Its akin to watching two chimps duking it out for the last bananna on earth, because they can't fathom that the bananna came from a tree somewhere.
Anonymous1 ((entertained (but not really amused) by the fighting bananna peddlers))
The "thoughts" you have, are maintained by the processing of Natural information, so, even if you could visualize a faerie in your mind, that faerie is built from natural components, like the form itself would be that of a miniature human, the colors would be only those colors that you could perceive, etc. The words, in a book, are Natural words, not supernatural words with magical properties. Where does "supernatural" come from?
Its like someone saying they are building a magical house, without lumber, as they grab a 2x4 board. I just want to know, if you are capable of seeing the 2x4, or if, you are capable of forcefully imposing a mental blindness that allows you to miss the obvious.
Compound that, with the fact, that mental blindness can become addictive, as an agent for escapism, just as alcohol, drugs, etc. All, remove a persons' ability to experience and perceive reality, as it really is, affording the person the opportunity to protect themselves from further exploitation of the environment.
A glass of water is healthy, however, too much water, and a person could drown, it appears moderation in those things that can be harmful is appropriate in life. Giving a name to ones' mental blindness, well, I suppose its a paradox of sorts, naming ones' own escape agent (god), while declaring total awareness of their reality. Perhaps, its just the declaration that the "agent" is available for those in need.
Help me out here, why does it require an entire organization to sell escape agents, give them names and properties, when... we naturally fall into that state of mind when necessary anyway.
Its like watching a group of addicts, supporting eachother by declaring its "okay" to use a specific type of escapism, and those who are capable of escaping the best, are the ones most blessed in their bliss.
By the way, when a person is traumatized, their cognitive paths are involuntarily blocked, preventing painful memories from surfacing. Unfortunately, this blocking causes mental blindness, and a person becomes lethargic, and incapable of mentally functioning with all cylinders firing. If you need to see an example, visit an abused childrens center.
I wouldn't question, the validity of the natural process to protect ones' own cognitive state of wellbeing. However, the goal should be to bring a person back to a fully functioning self, "not" enhance, or support their state of mind, by introducing them to alternative escape agents that are perceived by some in society as "better", agents than "others". Its all part of the process of "escapism".
Interestingly enough, many children who fought against priests or clergy in private schools have reported many times, abuse that drove them to enter into an escape mode. Thus, the religious clergy are capable of using substitution, taking a childs' self escape agent, and claiming that "god" is a better escape agent, and that the mental "fix" lasts for eternity.
Through perverted and gross acts, priests, pastors, etc., have been able to manipulate children, people, and entire nations. Manipulating another persons' life, using their own mental triggers against them, is... sick.
Telling a cocaine addict that its better to drink seems to "not" be the way to help a society out, unless, someone has lost total "faith" in humanity and their ability to take control of their own life.
Anonymous1 (realitystricken)
What do you beleive then to be the answers? How did we get here? Do you beleive that it is just that the universe created itself? And please articulate how your beleifs are not "fantastic" and therefore do not require proof.
I do not beleive that my "understand" of the universe around us are anymore "fantastic" than any other "logical" therory. I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state thier true beleifs and stand by them. Sitting on the fence and shooting down everyone elses therories while failing to state your own is cowardly. I can't prove my beleifs, can you prove yours?
"It's the responsibility of the person making fantastic claims to provide the evidence" the wm.
Well, it should be real easy then to prove your very ordinary, logical and unfantastics beleifs then.
Waiting
Wayne
I don't know.
That's my answer. I don't know.
For thousands of years whenever lightning lit up the night skies, people didn't know what caused it. People couldn't image that lightning was nothing more than build up of static electricity. People didn't know about electricity, so in their ignorance they imagined that it had to be a god making lightning. For millenia now, people have been ignorant of so many things like that. Earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, plagues, the rising and setting of the sun, gravity, sickness, fertility, drought, etc., were all once believed to be the direct result of some god's action. Now we know that those things are mindless parts of the natural world. Only primitive ignorants, and a few fundamentalists, still believe there is a god throwing lightning bolts. Being without knowledge is a fact of life. Substituting knowledge with religious belief and claiming it is knowledge is silly.
Now, I think I can reasonably assume that I can prove that I don't know how or when the universe began, or even if it had a beginning at all. I frankly don't have a belief about what I don't know, except the realization that just because some aspect of knowledge about the natural universe eludes our present grasp, it doesn't default to religion. All I can state is that I honestly look forward to the day when smarter people than me figure out the answers to your questions. Questions are good. Sliding in a god as the answer to your unanswered questions does nothing to answer the questions. To say "God did it" is to stop asking questions altogether. To say "God did it" doesn't explain how it was done at all. I assume when you say "God did it" that you mean your god, whatever that god might be, as opposed to anyone else's god.
I say I don't know, but I do suspect that there is a natural explanation for every question in nature, just like there is a natural explanation for lightning. The wealth of scientific discoveries over the last few hundred years, covering many parts of nature that were once thought to be the very hand of god, leads me to this logical conclusion.
Now, please tell me why you insist that simply because a question presently lacks a satisfying answer, that the only logical alternative is that "God did it."
Dave said: "Now, please tell me why you insist that simply because a question presently lacks a satisfying answer, that the only logical alternative is that "God did it.""
I didn't think that I was saying "God did it" is the only answer. I just don't think it is appropriate that those who do not have the answers can so freely insist that they know what the answers aren't. There could be a perfectly scientific reason that explains the creation of the universe. And God could be behind it. God could have designed evolution. I just find it frustrating that those who critique everyone else beleifs can't produce any of there own. Wayne
I did not ask you what you know, I know what you know; the same as the rest of us. I aksed you wha tyou BELEIVED to be true. BELEIVE was the opperative word. What do you beleive sir?
Wayne
For one to be totally honest with themselves, a person can only believe what they know is real and does for a fact exist.
But if one wants to pretend that invisible things exist and they want to fool oneself that those imaginary things exist, then you're living in a self-induced mental fantasy.
If you prefer to live in a mental fantasy over reality, then you've never really mentally matured, because it is the things that you wish existed and they plainly do not exist for the person that has mentally matured.
So if you live in a fantasy world in your mind, like most Americans do, then you're a walking robot insane zombie.
Try reality sometime Wayne, you may just like it, you also may see how ignorantly insane you've allowed yourself to be. You allowed it, you did Wayne.
I think Dave can speak for himself. And if most americans are walking robot zombies then I'm glad to be one of them.
Wayne
Wayne said, "What do you beleive then to be the answers?"
That's really vague, there Wayne, perhaps you could hone in on a more specific line of questioning.
Wayne said, "How did we get here?"
Well, you see, my mom and dad, had a honeymoon, and...
Wayne said, "Do you beleive that it is just that the universe created itself?"
You failed to answer one question in physics, but you actually want to hold a discussion on cosmological arguments. Tell you what there Wayne, why don't you "validate" your question. What I mean there Wayne, to break it down for you... is... in order to ask a question, one must know "something" of the subject matter being discussed. So, what area of expertise are you founding your opinions on, in order to answer a "Natural" question?
Wayne said, "And please articulate how your beleifs are not "fantastic" and therefore do not require proof."
Fantastic is an ambiguous word, the sun rising a few thousand years ago was "fantastic" to some primitive people. Articulate a belief? Okay, ready... "all" questions and answers reside in this Natural reality. Proof? I'm living in this Natural reality. Is that swell/great/joyous (fantastic)? Yep, I think so.
Wayne said, "I do not beleive that my "understand" of the universe around us are anymore "fantastic" than any other "logical" therory."
Is it logical, to be living in a Natural reality, while claiming to be reading "Supernatural" words? Is it logical to take the word of someone who lived two thousand years ago, over your "current" living experience? I'd suggest not, a persons' experience in life, is Natural by default and is the greatest "proof" possible.
Just because someone can make up nice powerful words to describe their Natural experience, i.e., god, deja vous, ESP, etc., doesn't make their experience "more" than it is. The word "infinity" is a word and symbol that signifies that there is "more" than what currently "Is". The word "afterlife" is a word that signifies that there is "more" than what currently "Is". In both cases, mankind is attempting to measure the potential of "more", to create predictability, but... "more", suggests "more" of a Natural object, Natural experience, or Naturally occurring processes.
Wayne said, "I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state thier true beleifs and stand by them."
Obviously, you haven't met the billions of Muslims who believe Allah, is the True God. Because, you can't even define "god", the person sitting in the pew next to you, may not even have the same "thought" you have regarding a "god". You are christian by name alone, because you accepted a title and have loyalty and allegiance to a cause - that, is christianity, and it reflects the beginnings of the religion per Roman Rule.
Your allegiance is understood by your title, and what was required to secure your allegiance? Well, only you know that answer. Having lived as a christian myself, I'd suggest that "my" allegiance was secured, because I was directed by my parents to "be" a christian. The second I asked to "support" the belief system of the christian, I was met with "no" answers, and a refusal to engage in such dialogue, to ask a question, was to "question" the legitimacy of the religion. Thus, my allegiance, was not to a belief, based on doctrine, it was directly pointing to a religious leader, and every religious leader has their own personal view on christianity and its purpose.
Wayne said, "Sitting on the fence and shooting down everyone elses therories while failing to state your own is cowardly. I can't prove my beleifs, can you prove yours?"
Yes, and I did. It requires you to prove that my theory is "wrong", that "all" in life is based on "Natural" occurrences and elements, in order for you to propose your claim of the Supernatural. My claim is solid, you must at least accept that you "live", and thus, I get one point for my belief system, every time you add another Natural belief, you add validity to my belief system.
At some point, you are going to attempt to "jump" out of the Natural reality, and of course, that is where we will disagree. You will suggest there is "more", than this Natural universe, but of course, I'll ask you if you are omniscient, in which case, you will reply "no" (Unless you are god), and in turn, I'll ask how you know there is a "more", and most times the response will be, because I "hope" there is more.
Anonymous1 (What's all this supernatural nonsense? All knowledge is based on Natural information & experience.)
You obviously spent some time composing that comment but I have to admit that it has left me frustrated. Your being intentionally obtuse about the questions I asked. And when you couldn't feign a sense of mild bewilderment about a particular question you just responded with a cute little sarcastic joke (Well, you see, my mom and dad, had a honeymoon, and...) Those questions were not vague because you know the context in which I asked them.
"Wayne said, "I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state thier true beleifs and stand by them."
Obviously, you haven't met the billions of Muslims who believe Allah, is the True God."
You know that I meant that I have not found one on this website.
Wayne
How do you know that any of your god "theories" are true?
I don't "believe" anything about the beginning of the universe. I don't have enough information to have a supportable opinion.
What evidence do you have for belief in your god? If you say that creation is the support for your belief in your god, then you are using belief in a creator to support your belief in your god. That's called circular reasoning.
I am not being disingenuous when I say I don't know. I am honest. I don't know. Please convince me that 1) there is a god 2) that this god created the universe 3) how this work was accomplished by this god 4) what or who this god is, and 5) why I should accept your explanation for any and all of the question above.
To everyone else: Does anyone still think that Wayne is anything less than a fundamentalist?
Thanks.
I have no proof to offer, and it frustrates me like nothing else. I want there to be real evidence. I want there to be real proof. I can not produce it though. But it really drives me crazy when people, including yourself Dave, will draw the line in the sand and say "Your beleifs are wrong. End of story" when they have nothing to offer themselves in way of an explaination or a therory or belief. I guess that it in a nut shell.
I tried to level the playing feild and find equal ground by saying neither side can prove or disprove the other. To find some common ground and build from there. I don't understand why others are so opposed to that.
For the record, I don't know what a fundy is. Or what your definition is.
Wayne
What question, the beginning of the Universe? I answered the question. My bewilderment is looking at your responses where you suggest I didn't answer your question. Let me be more "clear", the "answer", is a "Natural" answer, period. Do you accept the answer? Or, are you going to offer an alternative explanation? If you offer an "alternative" to the Natural, answer, please, by all means, state your case and how you... living in this natural reality... can make supernatural claims... while... living in this natural reality... suggesting there is more to this Natural reality... while you live... in this Natural reality...
Oh, and don't worry about the time required to post a comment, I type extraordinarily fast, I have a modified keypad with weighted keys and reflexive key springs for better finger action, but... that is neither here nor there, looking forward to hearing from you.
Thank you for admitting there is no real evidence for your belief in a god.
I realize that you have limited comprehension when it comes to this type of logical exchange, but believing something without any verifiable evidence to believe it, is ludicrous.
Here is the definition of a Christian Fundamentalist: Click here.
Here's how it is: You are saying there is a god of some sort and this god made the universe.
I am saying, "Uh really? Can you prove this?"
You are saying that you cannot prove it.
This is not an equal playing field. You are making a claim. Now you must support your claim. I am saying I doubt your claim until you convince me otherwise.
If I were to tell you that UFOs are visiting earth from the galaxy Nexum, and then offer no evidence other than my belief, then why in the world would you believe me? If I responded to your doubt by saying that your lack of belief in the UFOs is equal to my belief in the UFOs from the Nexum galaxy because neither of us can prove the validity or the invalidity of my belief, wouldn't you think me to be a bit daft?
I doubt your belief is valid. I don't offer an alternative belief, I don't have to. You are the one that is stating a belief. Please support your belief. If you cannot support your belief but insist that it is as valid a position as doubting your belief, then you are bordering on lunatic.
I have heard you claim that there is no God. You made that claim. You did. Can you prove it?
Wayne
Well, there it is, we all get choices in life, and each time someone states a god exists, they are stating that hell exists, they work hand in hand, at least for christianity.
If I asked you to prove hell, you would have no better chance, than trying to prove your god.
I don’t think that proves lunacy but whatever. Bye
Wayne
There is no Sasquatch.
There is no Santa Clause.
There is not Leprechans.
There are no Borrowers living under my stairway.
There are no 12-legged aliens from Planet 9 planning to invade Earth.
There are no flying elephants named Dumbo.
There is a Dumbo. Guess his real name.
Wayne, you are saying there is an ivisible creature called a god. If you want to believe that, then that's your affair. If the kids down the street believe in Santa, that's their affair. If the bearded guy selling flags at the Flea Market believes in UFOs, that's his affair.
I don't believe in your fantasy. Sorry. Don't believe it. Just don't. Why can't you accept that?
I don't remember saying that you were going to hell. In fact I.........Forget it.
Peace
Wayne
Can there be any doubt that Lorena's original thesis as posited in this article is correct?
A valid/legitimate "question", doesn't include a presumption within the "question" statement. So, back up, there Wayne, define the variables in your "question", and then, attempt to string the words together to derive some "further" insight. Define "god", that's it, just "one" word. If you can't define that word, you can't formulate a question with that "word".
Let me give you an example... How fast does sprinxulam run? Oh, you are going to ask me to define "sprinxulum", wow, what a novel concept, I mean, I agree, how on earth could you answer a question about a noun/work that you have no information on, because its undefined, and "unknown".
It is the responsibility of the one making the statement or asking the question, to clearly define the terms. The inability to define the terms, obviously exposes the ignorance of the one asking the question. It requires another ignorant person, to attempt to answer such a deliberately ambiguous (general) question, with a "particular" answer.
Define "god", Wayne, lets get this party started.
Wayne you said that your god exists, it's up to you to prove to us that your god exists, yet we do not believe you and yet you insist that it's up to us to prove your god does not exist, but it is you that is making the claim, we are just denying your claim.
We've been waiting for several days now for you to gather your proof, yet we've not seen nor heard any proof that your god exists.
So why come on here claiming something that you cannot prove exists, do you think that we are as ignorant as you, to believe in something that cannot be proved to exist?
Why have you waisted everyone's time trying to tell people that your imaginary god exists without one speck of proof.
Do you get off telling people a god exists, and that they must believe you, just because you say a god exists?
Wayne do you possess some form of special knowledge that has been sent to you from outerspace, have you been sent a special coded message from aliens that proves to you that a god exists?
Wayne what has convenced you that a god exists, was it from words written down in a book from over 2000 years ago?
Did your mommy tell you that a god exists?
Did your pastor tell you that a god exists?
Is by what people tell you, all the evidence that you need for a god to exist?
Tell us Wayne what evidence has been shown to you directly, that you know for 100% that a god exists.
You should gladly be willing to share with us ignorant heathens what knowledge that you possess that could easly convence us that your god exists.
Share with us Wayne your proof that a god exists, because when you see us burning in hell and knashing our teeth you will say had it not been for me Wayne, being so selfish, by witholding my proof of my god to those infidels they would now be in paradise in heaven with me, but I refused to show them my proof that they asked for, therefore I'm no more deserving of heaven than them, and I will ask my god to forgive them for my being so selfish and hopefully my god will not send me to hell for being so self-centered, but he most likely will, so you're doomed to hell as much as we are Wayne, unless you can provide your proof that we have fervently ask you for, we're still waiting, Wayne.
Wayne do you like the idea of people burning in hell, yet you tell people there is a god, and they are supposed to believe you, and when they ask for proof, you have none. Are we suppose to believe you, just because you say there is a god?
Are people all over the world suppose to believe anyone claiming that there is a god based on their word only?
" I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state their true beliefs and stand by them"
Hey Wayne!
Watch the nightly news. You will see at least one person or parts of one person who stated their true beliefs and died for them.
(As a side note: This was written before Wayne narrowed his "I have also yet to find someone out there besides Christians who will state their true beliefs and stand by them," down to only the people on "this" site.)
I don't know what the exact count is, as of today of all the people who gave their lives for their beliefs, but it must run into the billions.
I don't even know how many belief systems there have been since man became intelligent enough to realize that he was going to die, but starting with the belief that a certain mountain was the home of the Gods, to the Sun being God, to mother earth being the source of all that is good, right up to today, I reckon there must have been a couple of hundred thousand religions. PEOPLE HAVE STOOD BY ALL OF THESE RELIGIONS, AND DIED FOR THEM!
You have gone into typical "Christian witnesser mode." People, on just this thread alone, have taken apart your argument completely, and now your brain is going to hold on to your security blanket, and say the hell with logic and rational thought, my blankie means more to me than a bunch of stupid logic.
One day you will be in church listening to your preacher say something you have heard a thousand times, and you will think: "How does he know that? He doesn't know that. He doesn't know any more about God than I do. Where does this hick preacher get the idea he can tell me about God? At that moment he will have lost his power over you and your POCKETBOOK! You will turn your brain back on, and your questions will begin, and this time, and until you die, you will question every claim of all things supernatural and magical, and you will have a certain smugness about the fact that you have a ready answer for most of the big questions about how and why we were created. You will just smile and say: I DON'T KNOW, AND NEITHER DO YOU!
Dan (Perfectly content to be more ignorant than the force that created me)
He gave the example that for many years in this country People used the Bible and Christianity to defend slavery, and oppose women's suffrage.
If the founders of this country had not written into our first laws, or believed in the freedom to speak our minds, the abolition of slavery and equality for women in this country would never have come about.
Bill Moyers asked him, if the newspapers that refused to publish the Danish Cartoons making fun of Mohammed, were not just being respectful of other peoples beliefs, Mr. Rushdie answered with a resounding NO.
He said and I agree that those papers were being cowardly, because given the idiotic way the Arab countries allowed all the rioting over a few silly cartoons, the newspapers were OBLIGATED to publish them, especially since they routinely, publish cartoons of Jews and Christians in Muslim countries.
He cited the truth that if the free countries around the world let a few radicals influence what the rest of the world thinks and reads, it will just empower them to do it again.
Salman Rushdie is an Atheist, and wrote "Satanic Verses" and was condemned to death by the former Iranian spiritual leader for ten years, but he appeared to me as a very clear thinking individual, and adamant that religious fanaticism must always be opposed in any way possible.
Dan (A free, Agnostic, realist, humanist, deist, hedonist)
I haven't decided what the heck I am yet, other than good-old me. But I like your hedonist afiliation. I think I may stick with that one.
Next time someone asks, I'll say I am a hedonist.
Thanks for the kind words; a welcome change to what I am used to. I would not say that my persistence has brought out the "best" in some of the other readers, but, we all interpret what we see differently.
I am sorry to hear about your friend. I have had two similar incidents where people cut me loose because I wasn't "saved" enough or whatever. It's too bad.
I don't have all the answers, in fact, I have VERY few. Luckily I have just as many answers as everyone else. Everyone thinks that what they believe is right; otherwise they wouldn’t believe it. Unfortunately none of us will know for sure until the very end. And maybe not even then.
Thanks again.
Wayne
"...but I wasn't "hurt" by that because he was ALWAYS an asshole."
In the online world the acronym LOL is used freely, but rarely do I read anything that actually makes me laugh out loud. That did. Thanks for the belly laugh D!
and not for a second would i think that im brainwashed. i never put on a fake smile and i dont try to make every one joyless. granted like u said not everyone is the same so im sure that there are ppl like that in the world and im sorry if u have encountered those ppl. but if i am not happy, i pray about it work it out with god by my side. and also whats so wrong with someone who is dyeing to be offered to convert to christianity? i beleive that we should all be christians no matter when the time comes. and about suiside...it is seen as a sin in the bible to kill oneself but if u are a christian, and u commit suiside, u will go to heaven. now if one does not become a christian, weather u commit suiside or not ur going to hell. and thats ones own fault.
now i wish that u would reconsider ur steriotype about christians and maybe think of the one ur putting on ur self.
Post a Comment