You Can’t Have it Both Ways
1. Faith/Reason Oxymoron
2. Gay/Straight Sexuality
3. Christian Castaways…C.S. Lewis example
THE FAITH/REASON OXYMORON
All right Christian, I will accept your definition of faith as the reason why you believe what you believe in. You should grant to me the same courtesy and accept my belief in reason for me being a religious atheist. The basic difference between us is that I believe in one less god than what you believe in.
I have considered being a “evangelistic atheist” at times in the past. I have since abandoned this idea and am content to reaching out only to those that are open to reason.
I haven’t forgotten that I once held Christian beliefs for 23 years. Some atheists feel that Christians are really stupid people. I beg to differ with these smug atheists. Many Christians have never been presented with a proper case against Christianity. And once presented with this information, it may take a long length of time to digest what was found.
I had once considered enrolling at Liberty University to pursue a degree in apologetics. Had I had done this; I would have had to confront a difficult oxymoron. This is the absurd idea of faith and reason co-existing together in perfect harmony.
Dear Christian, you want to be accepted for believing by faith, and you want skeptics to accept your reasoning that is built upon the foundation of faith. This is amazing! You switch back and forth between faith and reason whenever it pleases you to do so.
Once you choose faith to understand the Bible. True reason becomes your enemy. Reason is the cause that has made all of us ex-christians abandon our journey of faith. Christian apologetics can give reasons for the hope that their belief brings. But all these reasons are based upon faith….not true reason.
As I earlier mentioned, I don’t think that Christians are stupid. That is until they start to earnestly contend with a skeptic with an irrational mixture of faith and reason. Faith and reason don’t mix! Christians accept faith, skeptics don’t. Faith overrides the domain of reason (logic, science, history) in the Christian mindset. When a skeptic uses reason, the Christian presses their “mute button” of faith to muzzle the message of reason that was delivered.
Basically, this explains why I am not an “evangelistic atheist”. Christians deny reason; skeptics deny faith. The result is a standoff and a waste of time. The problem here is a standard ethics breach by the Christian. The Christian denies reason when it suits their needs, but then tries to use reason when they have found someone that allows them to get away with it. If you (Christian) deny reason, then don’t be a hypocrite and try to later use it! If you’re against reason, be consistent, and don’t use it to convert others to your religion!
I am content with Christians riding their “faith bus”, but don’t get the idea that I will allow you to steal a little reason from me when we have discussions. You chose faith to determine your path; I chose reason to determine mine. Dear Christian, you can’t have it both ways!
GAY/STRAIGHT SEXUALITY
I must admit that I cannot understand the sexual attraction between members of the same sex to each other. I am only attracted to women and I sense that this is the way that it was meant to be. When you discuss the argument of design (sexually), it just seems natural that members of the opposite sex were made for each other. Please remember this last point.
I think it is awful that people dislike and actually hate another person because of sexual preferences (gay/straight). Gay people are one of Christian Fundamentalists favorite pet peeves. Yea, I know, they hate the sin, but love the sinner (yea…. whatever).
Gay people claim that they have natural sexual desires for each other. If this is what they say they feel then who should deny a subjective claim such as this? Usually, the person that says this isn’t natural, but it is, in fact, a personal choice that a person makes is normally a Christian practitioner. Now, let me interject a thought here that I have never heard anyone else bring up or defend when I bring it up.
Dear Christian, what do you do when a person is born with both male and female genitalia? You know a hermaphrodite (a individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present). They were created this way according to your worldview. That same argument of design is now thrown into chaos. This person can choose either sex for a sexual partner because they were born with male and female genitalia. Would you deny this? Or would you just deny them their sexuality?
There are many things that people may dislike in the world. I want to distinguish between sexual crime and preference here. But isn’t it time to stop the hatred and learn to be tolerant of someone that holds a different viewpoint than ourselves?
Dear Christian, did your god make a mistake with the hermaphrodite? Your Bible is clearly against homosexuality. Your Bible says God created male and female, not some combination. If you say that your God didn’t make a mistake then your Christian God allows for situational sexual ethics. Either way, it seems that your God isn’t as concerned about sexuality as the Christian pleasure police are. Dear Christian, you can’t have it both ways!
THE SUBJECT OF CHRISTIAN CASTAWAYS
I laugh to myself when I hear Christians try to explain why a member would leave the fold of Christianity to be a skeptic. In my case, I haven’t heard any Christian repeat back to me the truth on why I left. As Dan Barker has well said, “I just lost faith in faith”. Don’t expect a Christian to state this as the reason for a castaway leaving the faith. Why can’t Christians be moral and just simply tell the truth when asked about someone who left the faith for intellectual reasons? Being an ex-minister for eight years now affords me the opportunity to hear about these castaways. Castaways are a term that Christians will label an ex-christian.
Castaways are not supposed to happen. The Apostle Paul was concerned about himself becoming a castaway. Some Christians feel that castaways never were a true Christian, they simply lived a life of deception.
The main arguments you hear when Christian’s discuss castaways are:
1) “you never really had it” 2) Tares and the wheat 3) Parable of the seeds 4) Calvinistic debates 5) Hebrew 6:1-8 which states that it is impossible for a believer to fall away and to come back.
One thing that I never hear when this subject arises is the case about C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis abandoned his faith and became an Atheist, only to come back to Christianity after some time. You don’t believe me? Go to Wikipedia and type in his name and read their biography about Mr. Lewis. According to the Bible (Hebrews 6:1-8), C.S. Lewis did something that was impossible to do. Dear Christian, would you say that C.S. Lewis never had it? Or do you claim C.S. Lewis as a Christian? If so, then what will you do with people such as myself and all the other people who were true believers that have abandoned their faith? Wait if you want, but I am not coming back. Wither the case about castaways? Dear Christian, you can’t have it both ways!
Brian Worley Exminister.org
Dec. 2007 All rights reserved.
I'd like to point out one thing here . . .
ReplyDeleteNo such thing as "sexual preference". What your sexuality is is not something that you can have a preference for, like a brand name of shoe or a TV show. Our sexuality is hard-wired into us. Biology and science and psychology has shown us this. It is not a choice. Christians wish it was, because according to their religion, we should feel guilty over sexual urges, and homosexuality is an "abomination". What kind of God would they be worshipping if he sent people to Hell over things they can't change?
Thanks.
I hadn't thought of the hermaphrodite argument before. I'll certainly be using that in a future discussion with my mother (who is honestly trying very hard to come to terms with her gay son, but isn't quite there yet).
ReplyDeleteJamie,
ReplyDeleteThat argument could be used for any genetic condition that someone is born with, not just sexuality. Why would 'god' make someone with a deformity that he judges to be 'impure' according to his law. In the OT, there was a laundry list of people who could not enter the temple of the almighty god becasue they were dwarfs, menstrating, amputees, epileptic, or what not becasue they were considered 'impure'. Fast forward to today, now instead of the temple, its heaven and only the dreaded and much feared gays are not getting in.
Also, if anyone on this site is gay, I would like to issue a very heart felt apology for years of judgement, insensitivity and down right bigotry. Live your life in peace according to your conscious and know that you have my support! What you do in privacy is your buisness and no one has any right to tell anyone else who they can have a relationship with. Thank reason that I am finally free from fear and judgement. Peace to all and Happy Holidays!
Brian Worley wrote:.
ReplyDeleteDear Christian, what do you do when a person is born with both male and female genitalia? You know a hermaphrodite (a individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present)
Then Enjjpt wrote:
Jamie,
That argument could be used for any genetic condition that someone is born with, not just sexuality. Why would 'god' make someone with a deformity that he judges to be 'impure' according to his law
--------
Hi Brain, Enjjpt and Jamie,
As some are aware of, I land up having little debates with my very xtian wife, pitting my atheism against her bible god beliefs.
When I brought up the problem of the human defects (and some types of diseases) we see in the world, I get an answer that is a little bit different than the usual one of ..."It's because of sin" etc..
She evidently has been taught that the reason we see these human genetic defects, has nothing to do with the xtian god causing it (directly or indirectly), but rather is a result of us humans polluting the environment, as well as intentionally putting chemicals in our water and food etc..
That of course would make the assumption that before our modern era of spewing out pollutants into the environment, that all must have been just fine and dandy in the days of old.
While I do not disagree with the studies that show that these pollutants cause higher disease rates (cancer?) and causes defects in our DNA to appear (3 legged frogs anyone), it surely is not the sole historical reason for things like cancer and as Brian points out, "hermaphrodites".
I'm quite certain that folks died of cancer long before the industrial age came about.
I'm also quite certain that hermaphrodites existed back when this jesus supposedly walked the earth.
Of course, in my wife's xtian way of thinking, these things still must have been caused by something 'mankind' did to 'deserve' those fates.
In her mind, everything that god made is nothing less than PERFECT!!
Showing her some facts about how certain designs of the human body are far less than perfect, only results in my seeing those "shrugging shoulders" again.
Those shrugging shoulders tell me that she doesn't know the answers to my questions, but just because she doesn't know an answer, doesn't mean that her belief that god made everything perfect, is incorrect. It really means that she knows how to put on those xtian blinders a bit tighter, so no ungodly facts can leak through.
If xtians are so sure that god makes each of us in a very personal manner, soul and all, then why would he punish a new human he created with the 'sins' of their ancestors on their DNA, even if those ancestors had polluted the dickens out of the earth.
Doesn't that say one of two things is true:
1. God doesn't give a damn how much we screw up our DNA, by whatever means.
2. That god just plainly doesn't exist and hence, isn't influencing anything here on earth.
ATF (who wonders if one can purchase this reason stuff, to put in xtians stockings on xmas morning?)
Great post Brian. Makes good sense and reasoning to me. Roger...A/A
ReplyDeleteATF,
ReplyDeleteSome people are so blinded with their faith that they cannot see the logical side of an argument when it's presented to them.
You will just have to keep presenting your case and hope that it will be appreciated someday.
rgds
Telmi wrote:
ReplyDeleteYou will just have to keep presenting your case and hope that it will be appreciated someday
Telmi,
I keep stirring the pot, now and then, but only enough to hope that some THING I bring up will turn on a light and make her start looking deeper.
It seems most ex-xtians who tell their story here usually point to some first thing that caused them to start looking deeper into that 'rabbit hole'.
Alas, what would cause most of us here to suspect something is amuck, will only result in her putting it in the category of; "I'll find out when I get to heaven"
What I find interesting (and it just happened again today), is that she can spot the ethical flaws in a situation while we are watching a movie or tv show, but if we take that same fictional movie situation and move it into the realm of her religious beliefs, then she can't see where the problem is. It all boils down to a creed of whatever god says/does, must be correct, cause he's god.
As long as xtians are firm in their belief that this god of theirs exists, no amount of reason will work to make them see the flaws in any given god-situation.
We can only hope that the things they read and hear from us, are being 'recorded' in some part of their brain and when those flood gates finally do open, all we said will come back to them in a huge flood.
ATF