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7/16/2007                                                                                       View Comments

Boggles the Mind

By DagoodS

As I drive to work I see dozens of cars with Christian bumper stickers and fish symbols, and at times it strikes me how amazing that is. A man lived 2000 years ago and died. Some other people wrote stories about that man and a religion grew. And here we are, 2000 years later, and for $6.99 I can buy a gold plastic fish to honor this man. Who is dead.

I think of all those people who spent this morning talking and reading and listening and spending time attempting to communicate to a man who is dead. Buried. Decomposed and his atoms are now integrated into the rest of the world. I pass by church after church that spent millions of dollars to build and operate all because of one man who doesn’t hear a word they say. Because he is dead.

I recall the governments that were raised and wars fought, and ideologies imposed. The families that are torn apart, friends divided, people that refuse to speak to each other for decades. Because of their belief in a man who died 2000 years ago. Just died. He is not in heaven. He is not looking down. He is not something to be prayed to. He is dead.

It truly boggles my mind to think of all the money spent—Billions, even Trillions, all for the approval of this man. Who is simply…dead. It is sad and troubling to contemplate on the hours spent and the relationships destroyed over a corpse that does not care if we ate fish on Fridays. Or whether “damn” is a bad word. Yet as we look about us, and start tallying the numbers it becomes almost scary to scrutinize how much effort is being placed in a dead man.

As we all know, last Thursday a Hindu gave the opening prayer in the U.S. Senate. And, as we also know, some conservative Christians shouted out statements to disrupt the prayer, with the intent to glorify Jesus. Some other Christians support this action.

In the grand scheme of the universe, a prayer, or its content before the Senators of the United States got down to the serious business of screwing the American Taxpayer is quite meaningless. Whether it was interrupted by an elephant passing gas, or words shouted by a counter-religion is equally meaningless.

I reflected on these protesters. I don’t know anything about them, but I can imagine they are quite normal people. Hold normal jobs. Dress appropriately at the appropriate events. Attend their friends’ graduation parties. People that would be aghast if I appeared in their church in a bathing suit, or disrupted a wedding with catcalls of “Way to go, Bud! Knock ‘er up on the first night!”

I’ll bet I could pass those same people in various situations 99 times out of 100 and not even give a passing thought as to their behavior. But for one instance—that moment in the Senate, these people decided to break the decorum and become disruptive. Something they would never conceive of doing at any other time and would be shocked at anyone else doing the same.

Why? Because of belief in a guy who is dead. A corpse.

What makes people willing to do these things? Because they believe they have a God-Mandate. A calling and order from a higher source than the U.S. Senate.

Imagine you were a government agent. And you were secretly ordered by the President of the United States to do everything in your power to stop a local village from passing an ordinance. What do you care if you are ridiculed? Some day it will come out that you were acting on orders of the President and will receive all the glory. What if you are arrested? So what—the President will provide a pardon and explain.

This is exactly what was going through the protestors’ minds. They don’t care about being arrested or ridiculed. They picture Jesus, smiling and nodding at them, with a very, VERY severe frown at the Senators. They envision that someday, Jesus calling them special up to the throne, and in front of all the Congress, and all the press, and all the people that disagreed with them and at that moment Jesus will praise them. In fact, the more people jeer them; the louder they believe Jesus will applaud them. The more they are “persecuted” for doing what Jesus wants, the more Jesus will give them crowns of glory.

While the thought of the sums paid in adoration of a dead guy boggles my mind, the eagerness to act upon a perceived mandate of a dead guy scares me. This is truly a terrifying prospect.

I often waffle between the ideas of whether Christianity is more beneficial than harmful. Christianity certainly provides a convenient opportunity for charitable giving, as well as giving people a belief that is comforting. I find it hard to work up concern over the fact that the basis of those benefits is a person who is dead.

But when I see people—normal, rationale people—that are willing to perform all sorts of actions on the conviction that a dead guy has given them approval over all other forms of decency and propriety—well, it is hard to see the benefit in that.

We see people willing to disrupt a government, people willing to disrupt funerals, people eager to be rude, hateful, spiteful and people willing to even kill—all based upon the belief that “someday” Jesus will smile upon these actions with a stamp of approval. A belief that a God, mind you, is backing them with full support no matter what some puny humans may protest.

Look—Jesus is dead. I am sorry to be the one to tell you. Yes, I know about all those other people acting like he is not, and all those funds spent based upon the conviction he is not, and all the effort and time utilized with the underpinning that he is not. Yet, even with all that—he is dead. A Corpse. He is not smiling upon certain actions, nor frowning on others. He is not happy you bought a plastic fish, or mad you didn’t eat a real one. He is most adamantly NOT approving certain actions like what those protestors did in the Senate.

He is…dead.

Amazingly many Christians will agree with me that Jesus does not approve of certain actions done in his name. In fact, they believe he IS approving their DISapproval in what others claim he IS approving! And we enter the fascinating world of people bickering over what a dead guy supports!

I don’t recommend you contemplate too long on all the things being done in search of approval of a dead guy. It both boggles and horrifies.

84 comments:

Brother Jeff said...

What a glorious essay! Absolutely dead on correct. Jesus is...dead. And nothing ever can or will change that fact, regardless of how much effort is put into the belief that he isn't dead by believers. Jesus is just...dead. You're right. All that time and effort put forth over a dead guy does indeed just boggle the mind. Glory!

Spirula said...

DagoodS,

You hit the nail on the hands and fee...uhhh...I mean, head.

Bloviator said...

Jeeezussss!!! When you put it that way....

It does make you wonder why we as humans think we are 'all that and a bag of chips'. At least when kids believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, they have the benefit of an undeveloped mind. I couldn't pick the christian out of the crowd in general (they act normally, think rationally, work hard, etc.), but get 'em in a church and watch those hands start waving!! Do they think the J-man can see them all at the same time?

J. C. Samuelson said...

DagoodS,

As always, you simultaneously manage to amuse, inform, and provoke thought with insightful prose. It's always a pleasure to read your articles.

It is amazing how people so delude themselves that a dead man can grant their most fervent wish - eternal life. If they're lucky, they'll receive praise and a large mansion in the heavenly equivalent of Beverly Hills or the Hamptons. But what is really striking, is that according to the Bible, it will be an eternity in worship; in praise to God.

Imagine what that would be like. Up at 8:00, have breakfast, head over to the Throne Room at 9:00, worship and praise until noon, break for lunch (half-hour, of course), back at it by half past noon and on until quittin' time at 5:00. Then off to your mansion to spend time with your relatives in a heavenly block party, where you all gather around the viewing window and watch all those you knew and loved in life but who didn't accept Christ writhing in agony. Good times, man.

You think they'll have German beer in heaven? I just can't watch a good demonic torture session without a tall, cool one. Heck, if they have Weizen from Bayerische in Kaiserslautern, I might just be tempted to take Pascal's Wager. ;)

Anonymous said...

My answer to: "Boggles the mind" post.

Problem is, He is not a dead man as you say.
Not a man at all.
Something that raised the dead. healed the sick, confounded the learned, scared the kings into thinking that they were about to loose their thrones and power.
Told the deamons to " get out" and "Shut Up" The demons got out and did shut up as told.

Gee, this is not the behavior of a man at all.

No man does this. It is not possible. Walked on water?
Nope not a man at all.

Something to be feared, listened to and yes, unless you are really unwise. OBEYED.
Mix up mud and spit and cured blindness. Lets see you do that!

This was not a man at all.

Why is it any wonder after all this we see done, Why is it a big thing to ask that you believe that he could rise from the dead Himself?

The resurection of this "dead man"
was seen by over 500 eye witnesses.
When the veil in the Jewish temple was torn, this "dead man" finished off Judiasim.

To be more simple minded with you folks here I have a question.

My cat has brown/ black fur but it has white feet. The cat has little white boots for it's feet.
Something designed it that way. Something designed that cat to have white feet.
This is the work of the creator of the universe and because of the accomplishments of Christ. I believe it is Christ who is the creator of the universe.

This "dead man" did all these things and warned us all about the reality of hell and I believe Him. He's to be taken serriously.

All the sceptics back in the day were just like you, my dear reader. They tought for sure that once dead they would stay dead. Oh, the blind begger will always stay blind, That leprosy was for keeps. That man can not walk on water. The Jews in Egypt thought they were in Egypt for keeps.

I am sure Phaoroh in Egypt leaned down and heard moses say what he said and thought this man is nuts been in the sun too long.

But........

Then it happened.
Against all common sense, and experience, and no matter that it goes against the gods of Egypt, or against the laws of the universe that we believe in and no matter that it had never rained before at the time of the flood.

All of a sudden something new and unprecidented happened.

For the first time it rained. And did not stop until everything died.

Imagine these people and imagine the shock of them seeing that crazy old Moses was correct after all. They saw the rain fall, A new experience, the valleys fill up with water and then they looked to take refuge in the ark with crazy old Noah but it was too late.

Imagine being there and seeing the blind cured, the dead raised, the demons kicked out, the dude in the boat walking on water, the graves opening up and the dead old prophet standing in the village market telling everybody. Hello, I'm back and oh, but the way. repent and Praise the Lord!

What do you say when it happens and stands before you?

If all this has already happened years ago with witnesses causing an uproar and writing about it why is there any doubt that what is supposed to happen as the Bible says, Why do people doubt it?

The creator will return, take the dead bodies of the real Christians from their graves, take the living real, true Christians with him and then allow the resistance removed so the very Devil himself can appear and take over.

Mankind will go insane.
Suddenly this myth, this fairy tale, invention of crazy Christians takes on flesh and blood and becomes a reality nobody will be able to doubt.
You'll be facing another thing you'll have to admit is real after all.

The Antichrist and Satanism is just as real as Christianity is.

The problem with Christianity is that IT'S TRUE. IT HAPPENS, DESPITE WHAT WE THINK, WE SEE WE WERE WRONG. IT HAPPENS ANYWAYS. IT COMES TO PASS. IT WILL COME TO PASS.

Anonymous said...

I forgot to ask my simple question.

What or Who gave my cat her white feet? Look at nature.

Somebody put all this together.

Linda said...

Why are the anonymous so often uneducated and misinformed?

It's very strange how much influence a dead man has. Talk about a legacy. Even stranger is that he might not be a dead man at all...

He may have never even lived!

Anonymous said...

Then again,
What if he did?

Better yet,
What if he did live and was indeed, what he said he was?

Anybody so attacked and challanged and written about and struggled over like this had to have been real. Think about this.
Look, Israel was gone.

No such thing.
Gone.
The jews scattered.

It was Palestine.
In the hands of the British and Arabs.

They all thought. Well, that's the end of Israel.

Then, just as predicted. The fig tree they thought was never going to show buds again bloomed into a reality.

It's back.
WHAM! They hoist a flag and it's back.
Oh, by the way...... She's a nuke power too!

Ellytoad said...

Yet another longwinded interjector who manages to miss one of the main points of a post, in favor of a guilt-tripping sermon with no citations.
Right, let's say Jesus isn't dead, that he is indeed God himself and alive in the world today. That doesn't change the fact that his devoted, holy followers act like irrational pricks in his name an awful lot.
Who wants to bet that a random Christion lurker is going to explain THAT for once instead of insufferably going straight to semantics?

To the original poster: you're a really good writer. I enjoyed reading your points, which I thought were quite valid and intelligently thought out.

DagoodS said...

Anonymous,

You are quite correct, the incidents you list as recorded by Jesus could not be done by a man. Oh, but very, very easily by a myth, eh? Hence the perpetual question—what parts of the recorded history of Jesus is myth.

Oh, come, come. This is not unique to you. I suspect you do not agree with the events recorded in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. I would be shocked if you held the statements of Jesus as recorded in the Gospel of Thomas were Jesus’. And the events of the Gospel of Peter? Or the Gospel of Judas? Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if you held those to be myth.

O.K. Now that we have established that mythical stories CAN be written about a man—what method do we use to determine fact from myth? Is the ending of Mark myth? Is the story of the Adulterous woman myth? What elements in myth development do we see between the writings of Paul to Mark to Matthew and Luke and eventually to John?

See, I am an ex-christian. I DID believe Jesus was not dead. Until I studied some of the very things you mention. Don’t you think that if you are trying to convince a skeptic you should know at least as much about Christianity as he does?

Shall we test that theory?

What are the strongest arguments, in your opinion, as the reasons that a global flood did not occur? How much have you studied it? How could sharks have survived on the Ark? Or Whales? How could that much water appear in such a short time and leave no geological trace of the strip mining necessary to produce it? How did the fossil layers occur by flooding?

Or you mention Pharaoh. What century do you hold those events happened? 23rd BCE? 15th BCE? 13th BCE? Do you know why Christians argue for those three dates? Do you know the problems with each? Do you even know why there are three proposed dates?

See, both the flood and Exodus have panned out as myth. And the Jesus of your gospels held them as real events. A mythical character citing mythical stories. (Note, I believe there really was a human at the core of the Jesus stories. Just that we have no methodology by which to divine myth from fact in the stories about him.)

As to your simple question regarding your cat—this was not a post on intelligent design. The color of the paws of your cat have nothing to do with Jesus being myth, dead or resurrected.

(Although it fascinates me as to how Christians do not see that intelligent design is completely incompatible will all forms of Christianity except hyper-Calvinism or determinism. Some day they will figure it out…)

Finally, as to the re-establishment of the Israel—the Jews think Jesus is dead, too, ya know.

DagoodS said...

And thank you, brother jeff, spirula, bloviator, j.c. samuelson, and ellytoad for the kind comments.

Anonymous said...

Imagine being the ruler of Egypt sitting on your throne. Here this guy strolls up and tells you that he saw a bush in the desert on fire and out of it a voice speaks and commands a man on the run for murder to go back and tell the very king of Egypt to do the unthinkable.

To let the slaves go?
Moses! Are you mad?

Imagine being the ruler of Egypt and hearing this!

And then.....

One by one. Everything Moses warned about came true.

They doubted and then it happened. Then they saw it and had to live it. Then the crazyness of doubting and then accepting and repenting and then to doubt it all over again thru all those plagues all the way up to watching all the first born be dead in the morning?

Don't you think at some point The King of Egypt would be saying something like.....

Hey Moses! Take me to see this burning bush. I'm the king of Egypt! and well, it's not like I doubt you old fella but can you show me this burning bush of yours?

I'd like to hear it myself too!

Moses did show the King of Egypt the burning bush, so to speak. He showed that EVERYTHING this God who spoke out of a burning bush said would happen. Could happen! and did happen!
All the way up to selective mass death of only the firstborn of only the Egyptians.

Explain that.

Today, the jews obsersve this thing.

It's called...... Passover.

If you believe, as they did,
The horrible events intended for the unbelievers will pass over you, as well.

I wonder why The King of Egypt did not just scratch his head and say to Moses.

Ok, you win.

They can go.

I'd be jumping off of my throne at some point and getting my walking shoes and staff and maybe with a servant or two asking for Moses to take me into the desert and I'd like to see the burning bush at some point. But you have to admit, after a point it would be a moot thing to consider. A wasted journey. All the king of Egypt had to do was to carry on life as he already was and then stand there and watch messengers come up and report it as it happened. Wake up with frogs in his bed, the lice, the darkness, the water turned to blood,
At some point, why did he not decide to not mess with this God of Moses'.

No matter, what was thought.

Seeing is believing.

A God that judges and can curse can also Bless so change your ways!
Why Not?

There comes a time to Oh, Just Repent Already!

Anonymous said...

I have enjoyed the interesting answers/ replys so far, and have to go off line for today but I'll be back tomorrow.
Before I do,

There is this large "Thing" sitting on Mt. Ararat.

It resembles... a large boat.

Of all the mountains on the earth. It has to be the fabled Mt. Ararat.

It could not be another mountain, it has to resemble a boat too...

see ya, tomorrow!
grin!

Anonymous said...

Yeesh. This guy sounds like he's a Sunday school teacher, teaching to a flock of gullible six year olds. I'm grinning even larger than you, 'nonny! Ha! -Wes.

boomSLANG said...

Quote: It's very strange how much influence a dead man has.

Yes, but you're forgetting one itsy bitsy "detail"---that is, that this dead/"undead" man promised eternal life for those who believed in him, else, people wouldn't be jumping through hoops and/or looking for giant rafts stuck in the side of a mountain to "validate" said zombie's existence. lol

Nvrgoingbk said...

Anonymous, your arguments, are futile as long as you continue to use the Bible as your source.

first of all, we are EX Christians. We are NOT ignorant to the Bible's content. Our research has been exhaustive. and we have come to the conclusion that your "holy" text is FALSE, so you are wasting precious internt space arguing from it.

Second of all, as Dagoods said, there were other "first-hand" accounts given of the life of Jesus that were widely circulated, read and accepted, which I am certain you are ignorant of simply because you've been told that they are not "inspired" of God. What say you of these? Have you read even one of them? I have. I've read the Gospel of Thomas, of Mary Magdeline. I've read and own the Apocrypha. Have you ever read the Book of Wisdom by Solomon? Probably not, because as with the others, they are not the "Word of God", thus saith your pastor, correct? Well, the Book of Wisdom reads almost exactly like the Proberbs of your precious Bible and yet they have been rejected...WHY?

Do you celebrate Christmas? Are you aware that in the Tenth chapter of Jeremiah, you are prohibited from erecting a tree and decking it with silver and gold and nailing it down so it "teeter not?" No? You weren't aware of that? Are you aware of the pagan origins of EVERYONE of your "Christian" holidays and your Sunday Sabbath? Thanks to Constantine, you are able to disobey your God's commandments regarding paganism.

What of the flood story? Are you ignorant to the Epic of Gilgamesh and other ancient flood stories OLDER then your Bible's flood that DO NOT put Noah in the boat but some other hero?

And Jesus Miracles? Seriously, are you aware of all the world's saviors, once again OLDER than Jesus, who are recorded as having performed EXACTLY the same miracles and were called the "Son of God", born of a virgin, raised from the dead who also rose others from the dead, healed the sick, drove out demons, were visited by wisement, etc.? I have read excerpts from these OLDER texts and found myself DISGUSTED at the similarities. Oh I'm sure you will pass these off as coincidences or "Satan's" plan to decieve the world. I'm sure that even though I have pointed out that these texts were written long before Jesus's supposed arrival, that you will still go on about God sending an illusion so strong in the end times that even the "elect" would be decieved.

And since you are so impressed with the "eye witness" reports of the gospel writers, what do you have to say about the thousands of people around the world who have reported Near Death experiences who do not share your faith and were still surrounded by peace, love and THEIR GOD? Were they faking it or are only Christians NDE's legitimate?

You spoke of Hell. Always a fave topic of mine. Are you even aware of the origins of such a ridiculous belief? Do you ever investigate anything you believe to be true? Are you aware that the Hebrews did not even believe in such a place? Ever wonder why Solomon claims that when we are dead, we are aware of NOTHING? And just why didn't God warn Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden that the punishment for their sins would be Hell? He told them that the punishment would be DEATH, NOT HELL! In fact, the concept of Hell is not even introduced until Isaiah. The Jews were heavily influenced by Egyptian, Babylonian and Sumerian culture. They were heavily indoctrinated by their beliefs in the after life and a system of reward and punishment. The early Hebrews did NOT have such a concept.

I would love to continue on, but I digress. There is so much more to tackle, but I'll give you a chance to respond. Next lesson: Biblical inconsistencies, the orignins of YAHWEH, and failed Biblical prophecy.

Hope to hear from you soon

resonate11 said...

DagoodS,

Well thought post! Excellent rebuttal to the anonymous believer.


Nvrgoingbk,

Excellent reply to the believer.

Paul said...

Nvrgoingbk:
Each paragraph below is a reply to your corresponding paragraph in order.

I'll gladly use the bible as my authoritative source and disagree strongly with your claim of futility.

The fact that you are "ex christians" does not necessarily mean that you are not ignorant, your research is exhaustive, your conclusions are accurate, or therefore that we are wasting our time arguing about it. I fail to see the logic in this claim. Both Christians and "Ex-Christians" can be ignorant! :)

I have heard of similar claims before regarding 'missing scripture' of course. Whilst I am fairly ignorant of it (and I do intend to investigate it more) it doesn't concern me to greatly as I believe that the same God who flung stars into space can keep His word together as he deems fit. And before you start on translations etc I'll probably only agree with you - but again I also think that this God (for reasons I don't know for sure) chooses to use His very imperfect people to represent Him - in matters like witness, translation, interpretation etc.

I agree with your claims re Christman and other 'pagan' holidays etc - not how it was relevant to the subject however.

There are many flood stories from many different civilisations - I see these as evidence supporting a past world-wide flood as referred to in the Bible - not evidence against it as you somehow seem to be claiming. I think the date records kept in the bible through lineages etc would be far more reliable than when the writers of Gilgamesh claimed their flood happened. (even atheist historians respect historical records in the Bible) I would suggest its the same one.

Haven't heard of these claimed Jesus clones I must admit - tell us more please.

Yeah there a millions of stories of fantastic divine experiences all around the world of course. And yes I agree - many of the participants geniunely believe that their experience was genuine. I think the fact is that the human mind is a pretty amazing thing and we can convince ourselves of just about anything - and yes Christians have been guilty of this many times too (although I believe not to the extent you'd say I bet! :))
So it gets down to faith. I think its in Satan's interest to throw as many alternatives at us as possible. But before you claim then that it must be just a random lucky thing then if you pick the 'correct sect' or whatever, remember I believe in a God who can and will guide those who truly ask.

I believe Satan loves it when Christians warn others about the eternal torment in hell that those who are not saved will suffer. You seem to indicate (without saying exactly so let me know if I'm wrong) that Christians all believe this or that the new testament says this. While there are some verses that people might claim to support this (and I'd argue they don't) there are far more in my opinion that say exactly what you are saying. Even the much quoted John 3:16 - "shall not perish but have everlasting life" talks about a choice between life and death. "The wages of sin is death". The great white throne judgement in Revelation speaks of a 'second death'.

Hope you hear from you soon.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone come up with a good exchristian symbol yet?

--freedy

sailerfraud said...

How can someone be dead and decomposed if he was never alive to begin with?

.:webmaster:. said...

Paul said: "Whilst I am fairly ignorant [...] it doesn't concern me to [sic] greatly as I believe..."

I would say that about sums things up.

Anonymous said...

ummm....simple answer to a simple question to help enlighten a simple mind

cats have been bred by humans for many generations to have likeable characteristics such as size, personallity, colour, and yes, white paws.

sorry bud. man gave your cat white boots. not god.

oh and you keep repeating imagine,imagine,imagine <---just carry on bud :)

DagoodS said...

Paul,

I know you were responding to nvrgoingbk, but perhaps I, as another ex-Christian, can clear some things up.

You are right “exhaustive” is over-reaching. At this point, there is far too much information for any one person to be exhaustive in studying Christianity. However, I appreciate nvergoingbk’s sentiment. Rarely do I encounter a Christian who can understand the amount of time, research, study and yes, even prayer, tears and emotional exhaustion that was required to lose my belief in Christianity.

Coming out of that, I learned so much about Bible; it absolutely flabbergasts me as to how little most Christians know about their own belief. I can grab into the crowd of deconverts and find countless persons who are knowledgeable about all sides of the argument(s) and have done extensive research into a variety of claims about Christianity.

Sadly, grabbing into a crowd of Christians, I find most to be completely uninformed as to the various claims that are out there. Most have not read one skeptic, or person who does not have conforming beliefs to their own. While I welcome your openness to the fact you haven’t studied the other books, unfortunately I find your lack of knowledge to be very typical in the Christian community.

When doing your research, may I suggest you concentrate on methodology?

Try to come up with a set of criteria by which the books we have are inspired, but no other books are. Be careful of creating one that is after-the-fact or ad hoc. For example, you may develop a criterion that only books written prior to 100 CE are inspired.

But why would that be a good method? Sure, it would encompass most of the New Testament, and eliminate most of the non-inspired Gospels and Epistles. But why is 100 CE the necessary cut-off date? Why not 110 CE? Or 90 CE? What would cause a God to be limited by 70 years post-Jesus?

Most people that I see use 100 CE are simply creating a method that they hope obtains the result of their own New Testament.

Second, be careful of applying your method consistently. I have yet to see a method developed for canonicity that excludes 1 Clement, Epistle of Barnabas and Shepard of Hermas, but can consistently include Hebrews, James, Jude and 2 Peter.

Instead of just reading the extra-Christian writings, come up with a method by which you can consistently apply, and the Canonized Protestant Bible comes up, but the other books do not. Good luck—I have never seen it done.

Paul: … remember I believe in a God who can and will guide those who truly ask.

Unfortunately that is not very helpful. I have asked. I don’t believe in your god-concept. Apparently I have not “truly” asked, correct? How, exactly, do you propose I “truly” ask?

What you have done here (and is common) is created a self-defining prediction. A no-lose situation in which you never have to say what it is, exactly, I have to do, because the method is determined by the results.

Look, take it out of the theistic realm for a moment. Imagine I told you that “If you drink water in a certain way you will lose weight.” But I don’t specifically say how to drink water. So you try one method—and don’t lose weight. You come back to me and inquire, to which I respond, “Ah. If you didn’t lose weight you must have done it incorrectly. Try a different way.” And you do. And do not lose weight. And again, I say try it differently. Finally, you try something and coincidently lose weight. At which time I proudly proclaim, “See? See? I TOLD you it would work. We know you did it correctly because you lost weight.”

Is that very convincing?

In the same way we have been told 1000’s of times that if we asked God in the right way, or with the right heart, or with the right spirit, or the right faith, or the right humility, or the right position, or the right understanding, or the right ______ (you fill in the blank) that he will guide us to the answer. So we ask this way. Because we don’t happen to find your particular god-concept, we are told we must have done it wrong. We ask that way. We research this, that and the other thing. And every time we do not find your god. And every time we are told we must have done it wrong. And every time we are told that the person knows this, because we do not believe the same way they do. And every time they fail to give us any direction as to how to ask correctly!!

It is a result-oriented method, with no directions except to obtain the result.

So tell me, Paul. How do I “truly” ask?

Nvrgoingbk said...

Paul, thank you for your respectful response. Most of the Christian trolls that enter in are obnoxious and redundant.

I will agree that being an Ex-Christian does not necessarily make one learned. "Exhaustive" was perhaps a little overboard, but speaking for myself, I can say with integrity that most of what I read now only reiterates what I have read over and over again. When I first began my search and study, I was overwhelmed with all that I did not know. I welcome any new information.

You mentioned the Epic of Gilgamesh. Are you aware of just how old this Sumerian text is? It has been dated at almost 2000 B.C. making it some 1000 years older than the Hebrew texts. In this fantastic story you can not only read of a world-wide flood but also of a Garden and a snake and of a man being tricked out of immortality by it. While your belief that the Hebrew texts are more reliable simply because they record lineages, it is painfully obvious to nearly all scholars that the stories found within the Bible are BORROWED. There are similar stories to that of Moses, of the Tower of Babel, of the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, Nimrod, etc. within the Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian and Babylonain texts. WHile there may be evidence of a great flood, civilizations from around the world claim it was THEIR God who created it. How are we able to discern which is correct? The oldest religious texts are those of the Summerians. Shouldn't we then by default all believe in the Summerian God? I mean, if I were to attach myself to any belief, I would tend to go with the oldest.

It is up to you to do the research as no one led me toward the truth. My own need to know the truth drove me for countless hours to uncover what had been hidden from me for sixteen years as a Christian. You can quite easily begin Googling and find yourself engrossed in scholarly articles for days. Be careful not to read biased CHristian sources. Remember, I was a Christian too, but I knew that should I find the truth, I had to be willing to investigate BOTH view points. It's also important not to (at this point, anyway) waste your time with Atheistic websites who have their own agenda. Visit educational sites and non-biased sources who simply state the facts with no religious or NON-religious agenda.

For the sake of space and time, I just can not go into detail. It's more important for you to take upon yourself an active investigation. The Bible encourages you to test EVERYTHING - "come, let's reason together", it says. And so we shall. I think that what you will find is that your faith, like a house of cards will begin to fall down. Here is one quick source should you be interested: http://dim.com/~randl/tzohr.htm

As for your statement: "remember, I believe in a God who can and will guide those who truly ask." It was with much trepidation that I approached my investigation into the scriptures. I lived my life as one of your famous scriptures admonished me to: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Many a night I cried out to God with sobs to not let me go, to help me understand what I was finding, to make himself known to me. Many an unanswered prayer was flung to the ceiling in the hopes that the God I had feared and loved for so long would not let me down. I BEGGED your God to not let me go. I kept believing I could manipulate the facts to suit my belief in Him and that there had to be some other explanation, but alas, there was not. What I found was explicit and clear: The Christian God and the Bible were NOT divine afterall. What had begun as a search for answers to the contradictions I found in the Bible and the unanswered questions I had for many years became the undoing of all I once believed. After so many years of trying to find the answers within the pages of the Bible itself or other Christian sources, I was forced to delve deeper and consider others. How exactly, then Paul, do you propose I could have done things differently? How many years should I have waited? I was came to a point of near suicide, not wanting to go to Hell, but unable to deny any longer what my mind new to be true. Will I suffer eternally for this: SO BE IT!

Spirula said...

God who can and will guide those who truly ask.

Translation: Accept without question this book is true because it says it is.

You know Paul, the Quran claims the exact same thing, as do other 'holy' texts.

ST. JUDAS ISCARIOT'S disciple said...

The "anti christ" concept is a pure fiction of imagination invented by zealots as a "self defense" mechanism. The imminent "second coming" propaganda is a stunning ploy to promote laziness and stupidity in the twenty first century. Assuming "miracles" happen, the world will come to a standstill, we will have to shut down schools and hospitals and all the gains for the betterment of humanity achieved through hard work will dissipate. I don't see any difference between the iranian nut case ahmadinejad's mahdi and american evangelicals' zeal for the "second coming"/anti christ and so forth. Such "prophecies" are sheer inventions by zealots for self preservation.

As far as Hindu prayer in the Senate, I remember such a prayer was held in the House a few years ago. There are hundreds of thousands if not even close to a million Hindus in the US. Will those born them not be "American Patriots" as the evangelicals shouted? christians in india are not this nutty at all compared to what one sees in the US. the evangelicals are capable and are unleashing sheer terror in the name of religion and their version of christiantiy. i don't think they will change their ways because it is a marketing business for them and they make money out of it. Only the US constitution and laws can protect US religious minorities (now we worry about religious freedom in places like iraq and iran!! when reason is in such a short supply in the world's "freest republic")

THE DISCIPLE

THE ACE said...

A little information I came across
online searching for the 500 people who supposedly saw the arisen Jesus:Jesus Is Risen And Over 500 People Saw Him!
By Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christianity asserts that Jesus is a unique savior whose resurrection from the dead cannot be called into question. An often used claim by Christians as proof that the resurrection of Jesus was a historical fact is based the writings of Paul.
[Specifically 1 Cor 15:6, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.].

Christians will assert to Skeptics that over 500 people at one time saw the resurrected Jesus based on a line of scripture which was supposed to have been written by Paul. By claiming that over 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus at one time, Christians attempt to convince others that the Bible and the Bible's version of what Jesus was must be true. The following is an actual exchange with a Christian where this type of tactic is used.

Christian writes:
On 12 separate occasions various individuals and groups in various locations and circumstances saw Jesus alive after his death.

Commentary:
The Gospels can't agree on who saw Jesus first or where he first appeared to his apostles as a group. For that matter the Gospels can't even agree on who the 12 apostles were. As the 12 separate occasions involve internal contradictions, there is no reason to assign a large amount of credibility to them.

dano said...

Paul,
Can you describe your God? Can you tell me what it is? Did it create everything in the universe? Did it make you and me, and everything else?

Is God in control of everything? Can God do anything? Can God eliminate evil?

Are there any heavenly beings that God couldn't change or eliminate with the blink of an eye?

Paul are you afraid to define who or what your God is? Is he omnibenevolent? Is he omniscient? Is he Omnipotent?

Paul, I find that when Christians try to define who or what their God is, it disappears back into the nothingness of the ancient minds who created it.

They rigged it that way, so that you always have to go back to accepting the whole concept on faith, and they are in no danger of loosing a dues paying member, because of something as fundamentally necessary for individual freedom and happiness, as REASON.

When you give up reason for a pie in the sky, it is inevitable that you won't ever be totally satisfied with just eating pie!

Dan, Agnostic

Anonymous said...

I came back today to read and think about your comments about my post.

Remember Saul? the "Damascus Road conversion" story?

First he's off persecuting the Christians then on the road he's encountering God and blinding light asking him Aloud Why are you persecuting me? Saul asks:
Who are you? The answer. I am Jesus Whom you persecute.

Suddenly, He's converted. Changes his name to Paul and he becomes the greatest follower of Jesus. Makes a name for himself.

I wish that would happen here with you folks.
It has not happened. Right?
That's why you folks have the attitudes you have.

You are not seeing the proof.There are doubts. They say Doubt is the enemy of faith.

When things happen that can't be doubted. When something is seen and experienced and it is powerful enough that doubt is overruled then there is a change as with Saul.
One day,
If I tell you I had this bright light knock on my butt, or saw a burning bush with authorative speech coming from it and it claims to be God.
It would not be enough to sway you.
Probably why Moses was doubted at the beginning.

Wonder what God would have said or done if Saul let loose at Him with some of the feelings we see presented here?

There is some rebelliousness here but also honest, questions from folks who just don't see it and therefore don't believe.
Thing is, one is expected to: Just believe, do and live it.
This is where things become difficult. Right?
As for me talking to Sunday School kids- No, I give you credit for being adult, educated, thoughtful, intelligent, reasonable folks who have gotten hurt and are doubting and the process of losing the faith is by in no way, a small thing.

I did not jump in your group to bother but to learn and sit with ya all and chew things over......

As for the Antichrist being a made up myth made up by Christians and so on?

What are you going to do besides say: "Oh Shit!" If this belief becomes day to day reality?
We are only human and we're messing about with powerful stuff we don't understand here. Lets face it.
Isn't this a world where anything can happen?

Shouldn't we say something like
It could, or it might, or something like: I would not be too surprised?

If it does happen they'll say the Christians brought it on, made it happen. Lets hope we never see it happen, but I think it will happen and I ask
What will there be that we are able to do about it?

Anonymous said...

The thing that I find so currious is that the Bible and Jesus and so on is so attacked so much with such vigor.

You don't see anything else attacked, and attempts to explain it away with so many angles meant to undermine it.

We are told that Satan hates the Bible and will do anything to destroy it and I look and see this appears to be the case.
I was not reading my Bible and being all religious when I saw this "thing" move towards me in my girlfriends kitchen. As I had chest pains. IT TERRIFIED ME.I believe that I'm saved. So what's up with this?

Look, my friends. I have questions too. It's why I'm here.
There is not one person here I would not stop to help and give a ride to in a time of need and it is not my exposure to Christianity that made me like this. Rather my nature.

My mother dies. leaves me everything. I'm messing about with a girl and hear my mother call my name. Sure she'd be unhappy I'm doing this in the living room of her house that is now mine.

Was it my dead mother?
Or as the minister tells me that:
I was sinning and therefore Satan gets to have a field day with me. That is was demons or some crap whispering in my ear. I do no drugs, do not drink and am fairly happy and normal except that there was a death in the family and a loss.
I remodel the house and hear noises that can't be explained.

See and touch a golden ladder from the living room cieling? I did. What's up with this?
Look all I want to do is live, be happy, not hurt anybody, pursue my hobbies and interests and get laid with my gal!

I have more trouble accepting the fact that folks do not believe in the so called demonic shit that we have happen in our lives v.s. the Bible.

Not only are you good folks here dis believing the Bible but you also dismiss the other side of the coin as well.

Anonymous said...

I was tempted to place an ad and ask people to come to the house and ask them to write down what they saw in that living room. I decided to sell the house instead.

Footsteps on the stairs, slamming doors? explain this please
Ok, the doorbell ringing was a crossed wire or perhaps because of lightning.

Supposed to be a Christian and I believe I am but I make mistakes and still sin like with my 40 year old girlfriend in the living room. Christians sin like everybody else.

So what's with hearing my dead mother call my name? Hey I get to have sex in my living room with the drapes pulled across closed.

Why do I see things, events before they happen?

I'm psychic. Precognative ability all through me.
example:
Car is broke down, I call a cab and before he gets there I picture a one legged cab driver on crutches. I thought I was nuts. Who ever has been driven by a one legged cab driver? But then there he was!
Standing before me without his left foot, the foot he never would use to drive with anyways!

He drove me with his only foot. His right foot. The car was an automatic not a stick shift and we got there fine. Spooked the hell out of me to have a feeling/ dream/ vision whatever and then to have it happen to me!

This crap happens all the time.
I'm sick of it.
You folks deny the supernatural. But my friends. I AM LIVING IT!
How would you feel to be me?

I don't want to see the future or have pre-cognative abilities.
Why does God not stop this from happening to me. You group here will say it is because God does not exist!

I'll let you all resume your posts here. I'll read on and think but for awhile now, I'll not contribute any further.

Anonymous said...

The golden ladder that appeared from the cieling down stayed put long enough for me to run my left hand through it. Thank the stars nothing came down or up on it.
I saw no beings of any kind.
It went "shooop" and retracted up quickly.

I stood there wondering: W.T.F.
not unlike any of you all.

There was no doubt. It vansihed before I could get my digital camera.

I told the minister that I did not think it was a sin to have sex with my girlfriend because I do genuinely love her no matter that we are not married. He did not agree but when do they ever?

I wish you peace, health, happiness, and all good things.
Ok, I'm done. really

boomSLANG said...

Anony: It vansihed before I could get my digital camera.

Imagine that.(pun intended)

Monk said...

I have two short observations/questions for the various anonymous posters (I have no way of really differentiating you all...sorry!).

First, to the anonymous who is citing the various stories of the Bible (Moses and Pharoah, Saul and Damascus, etc.)...Explain to me why these (or any other miracles) have such scant corroboration from outside or neutral sources? For that matter, why no records/warnings from those to whom doom was visited? We can hardly accuse the ancient Egyptians of ignorance or illiteracy, so why did none of them bother to say anything about Moses, his miracles, or the disaster that befell the first born, Pharoah, and his army?

Granted, the ancient world lacked the all-encompassing media of today, yet surely someone who have a thing or two to say about such amazing feats.

Secondly...to the anonymous who wonders why Christianity receives the majority of the ire of atheists in this country. Well, this may come as a surprise to you, but Christianity happens to be the religion associated (either passively or passionately) with THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES. It is the religion of the majority. It is the religion that is constantly shoved down everyone's throat. Given that, what on earth would make you think that it WOULDN'T be the focus of all debate/outrage/complaint of those who disbelieve in its outlandish mythologies?

I don't mean to be harsh, but please, look at the broader picture.

To DagoodS...excellent post!

Anonymous said...

what escapes all these xians who come on here is NOT ONE of them can heal a limb or make a withered hand grow back. The whole jesus story really warms the heart and it brings solice to somes soul but face it when is the last time one of you anny. writers called fire down from heavan? jesus said "the works that i do all those who believe and or follow me SHALL DO THE SAME some where xians have missed out on that info and i am not talking about those fake as benny henns either i wanna see legs growing back and demons coming out of poeple screaming and nashing teeth....

yours truly nvrgoingbkEITHER AND THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME(NVRGOINGBKEITHER) AND MY WIFE (NVRGOINGBK) WE HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH POEPLE GETTING US MIXED UP OF COURSE RIGHT BUT ITS ARE FAULT SO HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE

eel_shepherd said...

One of the early anonymice wrote:
"...What or Who gave my cat her white feet?..."

YOUR cat!? Ex-kyooz me... MY cat has the prim little white paws. And, being a calico, she has vari-coloured little pads, like the kernels on a cob of Indian maize. So you just take another look, Mr. Anonymous, at your "familiar"; I mean your cat. And see him or her as s/he truly is, not through the eyes of faith.

As for that Thing on Mount Ararat that looks very like a large goat, why do you find it so hard to believe that a large goat might have occasion to seek the higher ground?

Paul said...

As I am sure you guys find - there is so much posted here and you can't comment on all that you'd like to.

Just a few comments from various posts for you to flame :) (seriously tho thanks for the mostly reasonable comments to me)

webmaster: I'll be ignorant on some things forever - and so you will you. I'm not embarrassed about this. This doesn't mean that I won't try to use my God given intellect to become less ignorant. And yes, the very definition of faith means that we'll trust that which we can't absolutely prove also (although I hope we'd look what evidence there is if not proof).

Dagoods - when you comment on my 'typical' lack of knowledge - do you know how long I've been a Christian? Do you know of my capacity to learn? What stage of my journey am I on? We've all got to start somewhere mate. If we waited until we had seen all the "proof" (which doesn't exist) and had time to consider it we would never get out of bed. Based on the flawed intellect and wisdom I have right now - I believe in the God of the Bible and I believe I always will. You also haven't seen every item of evidence.

An in regards to 'truly asking' - maybe you have? People on this site are saying prayer is never answered - perhaps it is when people like me take the time to post on this site? There's no tricks to 'truly asking' I believe. If you truly seek you'll find it. Just remember however you are human and you do have biases etc just like us Christians do. None of us can look at something completely objectively I believe - but God has the power and the will to show you in the way you need to see if you listen. He might not have shown you in the timeline or way you deemed necessary but he'll do it in His perfect timing. Why all the heart-ache? There's a reason don't worry. For example, if you do decide to be on God's side - just imagine how all this heart-ache, research etc would empower you to help others in their faith?

Nvrgoingbk:
Even if the story of Gilgamesh is older - the actual alleged event is still older.. obviously we can't prove anything as we weren't around then but I believe that these stories all give evidence for Noah's flood.

I will read the link you posted thanks.

Dano:
Who is my God you ask? I believe He is the loving all powerful creator of the Universe in the Bible. Yep He made everything I reckon.

Yes I believe God is in control of everything - yep he can do anything including eliminating evil.

Nope I'm not afraid to decribe Him - yep I believe He's all those omni this and omni thats.

He hasn't disappeared into this black nothingness you mentioned for me yet - is there a trick to this? :)

Don't give up reason mate. Your reason and your mind is given to you by God - so of course he wants you to use it. And if you do use it asking for God's guidance - I believe you'll come to the place where you place your faith in God. I will never tell you not to use reason and good old logic. I will not ever tell you not to try and understand things.

Thank God He made us all different - what a boring place it would be. We see things different. He also didn't make us robots - he gave us a free will - and although its hard to understand I agree, He does allow evil to occur - he allows us to make our own decisions good or bad. If (when?) you get to heaven, ask God why. I don't mind admitting that I'm pretty uncomfortable with many things in the Bible (eg wiping out cities including children etc) but when I consider that God is perfect, just, holy, far more intelligent than I, etc, can I expect to understand all that God does?

And no this doesn't mean that I go along with a blind faith - you should still try to understand, but accept that your flawed intelligence/wisdom whatever will mean that you're not going to understand all.

.:webmaster:. said...

Paul said: "I'll be ignorant on some things forever - and so you will you."

Paul, this is a small point here, but did it ever occur to you that you could admit a failing without immediately pointing your finger in someone's face? In case you haven't noticed, I have confessed uncountable times to my limitations. In fact, this entire site is a tribute to my admission to having been bamboozled by Christianity. I'm not the one with the issues when it comes to acknowledging my frailties. Perhaps before you so quickly fire off "and so are you" at those who disagree with you, you might want to do a little introspection to find out why you feel the overwhelming need to put people in their place, so to speak.

Paul said, "And yes, the very definition of faith means that we'll trust that which we can't absolutely prove also (although I hope we'd look what evidence there is if not proof)."

Paul, according to your holy book, "faith is the evidence of things unseen." In other words, faith is your evidence. No proof is EVER offered. You are trusting in something which is not only unprovable but for which there is no evidence outside ancient stories in an admittedly religious book, half of which was put together by the democratic vote of bishops under the orders of a Roman emperor!

Paul, as you almost admitted to yourself, your "god-given intellect" is prone to error (as is mine). Ask yourself this questions: Do you easily reject the religious stories of every other religion in the world? If so, why? When you have an honest answer for those questions, you'll understand why others reject your religion.

dano said...

Paul,
Your God did disappear when you answered my questions. With every answer you proved the non existence of Bible God.

You say that you have retained your logic, reason and common sense, but in your first answer, you admit that God is responsible for everything, and that he is loves everybody.

I contend that my simple statement of fact, and your answer to the question, below belies every thing you say you believe.

I don't know if you are aware of it, but millions of children are dying from starvation, disease, and lack of the most fundamental necessities for living, but they ARE!

WHY?

And don't call me mate!
I really don't like people who go through life giving God credit for all the good things in life, and when questioned about the bad, say "God has his reasons, we just cant understand them."

You say you are not a robot, but you fit the description of the Christian, robotic, cult figure to a tee!
Dan, Agnostic

Jim Arvo said...

Paul said "...the very definition of faith means that we'll trust that which we can't absolutely prove..."

Two comments:

1) Outside of mathematics, we can't "absolutely prove" anything. The best we can hope for in empirical matters is compelling evidence. I'll assume that what you mean, then, is that faith is belief without compelling evidence.

2) Given that there are myriad things that cannot be proven, or even supported by compelling evidence (such as the existence of hundreds of gods and goddesses), which do you decide to believe on faith and why?

I contend that you cannot place faith before reason, for then you have no means by which to decide what to have faith in. Except, of course, for tradition, indoctrination, wishful thinking, fear, emotional appeals, credulity, etc., all of which are poor reasons to believe something.

eel_shepherd said...

Paul replied (to Nvrgoingbk):
"...Nvrgoingbk:
Even if the story of Gilgamesh is older - the actual alleged event is still older..."

When was it?

"...obviously we can't prove anything..."

Don't let that stop you.

"...as we weren't around then but I believe that these stories all give evidence for Noah's flood..."

Assuming that Noah was alive at the time of Noah's flood.

dano said...

Paul,
Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word Omniscient. It means that God is aware of all the suffering in the world. Omnebenevolet means that he is all loving. (He would be repulsed by it) Omnipotent means that he could do something about it.

All qualities of your God, whom you have already admitted does all manner of horrendous immoral things, and makes you a believer in an immoral God who could eliminate suffering, and evil but can't or won't.

That's why putting faith before reason will continue to stunt your intellect, till the both of us get to where we go when we die. (See W/M and Jim's post above)

The difference is that you will have lived in never-never land, and never experienced the joy and power, of living in the real world.

POOF!

Your God just vanished.
Dan, Agnostic

dano said...

annoy-mouse
I knew a guy once that hit the lottery and suddenly found himself in a position where he could do about anything he wanted,

Well, the first thing he did was to buy a great big house, and because he didn't have any other vices, used the money to attract girls.

Well, to make a long story short, he started to believe that he could tell the future, and he started seeing things that weren't there, so he went to a shrink, who diagnosed the problem as "Too much nookie"

It seems that getting all that "Taco" when he wasn't used to it had upset the natural homeostasis of his libido, and adversely affected his eyesight. Sort of like masturbating too much.
Dan, Agnostic

.:webmaster:. said...

The latest anonymous was behaving like a troll. All the posts have been deleted.

.:webmaster:. said...

To anonymous posters: If you expect to be taken seriously or allowed to continue posting, please register or simply click the "other" button and post under a consistent pseudonym.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

The last time I read about it I believe it was Noah not Moses who dealt with all of the rain.
Stormin' Norm

MothandRust said...

your cat's paws are white, ergo God exists, people will end up tortured forever and Jesus is swell.

Got it. thanks.

Anonymous said...

The Bible says what it says. People have trouble understanding it and much of what we do understand we simply do not like what we hear.

Not liking what we hear does not change anything.

A Being such as this is going to do whatever it wants.

What can be done about it?

Am I expected to argue and make God explain Himself?

Call God on the carpet?

What are we supposed to do here?

I'd rather be obedient and be sincere in my attempts to follow the Bible then to reject God and wind up in a place intended for the devil.

Our rebellion only gets us in trouble.

After seeing something 3 feet tall that ran towards me as I had chest pain I believe that there are demons out there and something was moving towards me and this has me scared into reading my bible at every chance.

You saw Ghost with Demi Moore right?
The demons that came for Willie then for Carl?
Well, I believe that shit like this comes for you if you reject Jesus so I am not going to chance it.

I have learned the definition of a troll from reading this site and will strive to not be a troll.
Your pal,
the anonomouse

Anonymous said...

Jesus is what He is.

Look, we can discuss and grumble and take pot shots and vent our feelings but we cannot pull this God down off His throne and make everything into what we feel is right.

I hear what you are saying.

It makes no difference if we are faced with God or the devil we can only stand there saying Oh Shit and marvel that this is really the reality we find ourselves in.

And it looks like this is the case.

If you are right, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and be speachless.

If I am right, all you can do is shrug your shoulders and be speachless.

If I'm wrong, smack me one and call me a dumb shit if it makes you feel better.

Jesus pops up and heals folks, drives out the demons, raises the friggin dead and dies and comes back Himself and people still doubt and have trouble.

If you need more than that you're outta luck it seems.
He offers to save your soul if you let Him.

Take him up on it.

Somebody created cats and the whole planet and everything and when I meet Who this is, I want to be on good terms with this being.

Wouldn't you?

Anonymous said...

Lets say that I was a contempory friend of, Saul the guy that was kicking butt making a name for himself persecuting the crap out of the Christians.

Yea, Saul is killing the Christians and I'm out doing the same only maybe not as good as Saul.
So we agree, Saul. We hate and persecute and kill the Christians.
Lets say I am supposed to meet him in Damascus.

I get there and wait for him. He shows up and he's changed his name and all of a sudden he says to me.

Ah, Things have changed. I'm a Christian, I've been converted and I won't be killing any more of the christians because ah, I'm going to worship with them and spread the gospel.

Mind you this is the gospel, I have been working aginst and now he's joining the folks we have been working tirelessly to wipe out.

I can call him a traitor, and yell at him and question his sanity and prepare to kill my best friend and all that but you know full well what I'd do!

I'd ask:
Hey Saul, What happened?

What's up with this shit?

He'd tell me about this blinding light, the voice that scared him and asked him why are you persecuting me?

What am I suppose to do now?

What?

He's believing it, he's making major changes and is a Christian now!

He's patting me on the back and saying see ya around!

Oh, after I get preached at!

Same thing if somebody's gay lover goes missing and when you find the person and ask where are you they tell you that they got saved and am not going to sleep with you any more.

What do you do when Jesus saves and takes your lover out of your bed?

All of a sudden, my man here goes straight or worse yet becomes a Christian!

What do you do?

I'm not gay or lesbian but you know full well that this happens to the gays and lesbians. They come home and their lover/ partner has left to be a Christian.

Once again,
What can we do.

What do you do about a force that pops up with blinding light and makes off with... "my man Saul here?"

Anonymous said...

Post from July 16 th mentions the "second death"

This is the death of the soul that gets cast into Hell.

Unfortunetly, the soul does not die neither in heaven or in hell.
The conscious mind moves right along either into hell or heaven. The body takes a time out, in the grave, until you are put back into it after it has been restored and upgraded to withstand heaven or hell.

The soul does not skip a beat.

Anonymous said...

Ok you are saying that nature gave the cat her white paws.

Who or what is the force behind nature?

Anonymous said...

Christians, many of them, do not like movies.

I LOVE MOVIES. AS AN AMERICAN, YOU LOVE THE MOVIES.

Anybody see the Christopher Reeve d.v.d.?

I bought the Somewhere in Time vhs and the d.v.d.

He does not (did not) profess Christianity but he tells us that a rather currious thing happened to him.

He had a reaction to a drug they gave him and he flatlined for 90 sedonds and was up above his body looking down at himself and he watched the doctor/ nurse give the body a massive dose of another drug and he was back in his body. He said that he would have never thought that was possible but it happened and it made him remember the death scene in the movie he did, "Somewhere in Time" and he says to us "that we are not so far off."

A near death experience from the late Christopher Reeve.


This experience surprised him.

Leaves no doubt there are other surprises to be experienced if this kept going on without something pulling you back into the body as the drug did.

Surprises to see in heaven or lift up your eyes to see, in hell.

depends where you go....
Here we are, smugly saying there is nothing but endless sleep after death.

We are wrong to say that.
The soul jumps up and out of the body and it was pearched above looking down at the body as in Christopher Reeves' case!

He returned to tell us about it.
Not being all Bible thumping about it neither.

Our pal, the beloved Christopher Reeve simply telling us all.

Guess what happened to me!
He said that he never would have thought this was able to happen.

With death, and God involved the thing is, a lot of things CAN AND WILL happen no matter if we believe in it or not.

Christopher Reeve had NO CONTROL OVER his soul after he left his body.
The doctor pulled him back at the last moment but the soul goes wherever God commands it to go.

Carried along on auto pilot.

Chris did not tell us.
"Oh, I decided to move up above, and sit and watch from above.
Or, I went here or there and did as I pleased as I was out of my body.
No! he was out of control at that point.
A passenger along for the ride.

This was on the anaversary edition of the Somewhere in Time video tape and I think it is on my Somewhere in Time D.V.D.as well.

Look it up.

It's true.

And he's not at all bible thumping about it.

He wanted you to ponder this experience and he tells plainly that he never thought this would happen!

On you tube
I saw the 2000 super bowl Nuveen comercial where he walks on stage and I sat and cried.

Anonymous said...

Does God talk to you?
Never did to me until recently.

He said:
Forget it, you're too in love with the world.

Well I do love the world or at least many parts of it. Movies and things in day to day life.

Yet I read my bible, and believe that I am saved.

Maybe I have not surrendered to Him enough?

Anyways it was a creapy happenstance to hear this as I zipped along the highway.

I won't say I hear God unless like The Saul/ Paul person from the bible I keep mentioning,

Unless I see the blinding light and hear a voice. Like Saul, it'll have to a blinding light show and speech.
Until then, I'll try to keep believing but I am troubled at some things I have experienced.

freethinker05 said...

xuAnony, who said, the soul does NOT die, well, that only shows how much the buybull condra"dicks" itself, because in Ezekiel 18:4 it says "The SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE", James 5:20, job 7:15, etc., and many other scriptures. Maybe you can interpet or, twist these scriptures for us, eh? Roger

Anonymous said...

More creepy things from my life.
This sixth sense feeling occurs.
I try to prevent a friend from going to a party in Michigan.
I fail at it partly because I doubt it a bit myself because it's so strange and I resent it happening in me.
So, he's going.

I tell him: Well don't fall into the Clinton River. He's my friend, just my friend and I hug him and go on my way.
He thinks I'm nuts. I smile at him and don't see him until later.

I arrive back, he's got his clothes laid out to dry. Money from his wallet laid out to dry, paper like a social security card laid out to dry.

WHAT HAPPENED?
He went to the party, got drunk, fell into, and nearly drowned in......

Yes!
( and I'm gonna swear here despite me being a Christian)

He nearly drowned in the God Damned...... CLINTON RIVER!

Another thing he wanted to know
was: How did I know the party was near the Clinton River?
He did not tell me he was going to a party near the Clinton river!

He told me my 6 th sense stuff was spooky. I fed him dinner and went back to my place.

He was a pal, a fellow ran across during my brief stint while being homeless before inheriting 800,000.00 plus and returning home.

Explain this.

Anonymous said...

You sure use a lot of words to say nothing at all, annony. Did you know we've heard all this before? Don't you realize that you posting this same tired old crap is simply a waste of your time and you will be accomplishing nothing but pushing everyone away and fueling our contempt for you? Don't you realize that? How about some credible evidence to support your position please? ...and then perhaps we can engage you in a more intellectual conversation? Or is it your desire to simply waste your time typing out these posts while everyone else here just ignores them? Yeesh! -Wes.

Anonymous said...

To Wess:
Sorry for being long winded, will try to work on it and not repeat myself
I don't consider it a waste of my time. Sorry that you do. I'm just looking for answers. Perhaps you are not the one to provide my answers. Others may enjoy the post, find some small thing, somewhere hopefully, thought provoking.

Does this crazy precognative crap happen to you.
Anything strange in your life happen that you wish to share?

Or am I the only strange thing here?
After he fell into the river, I did not leave his side. I may be strange. But I have a good heart and I am loyal. I am just passing through like all the rest of us. Just passing through.

Anonymous said...

To Wes, I read stuff here. I too, can say I see "the same old, same old stuff" here but this is going to happen

You stay in this long enough and sooner or later you will say.
I have heard it all before or I have read that before. Something I am all charged up about you will look at me and yawn and not be impressed or worse yet, you'll think I'm immature or childish.
We are all at different stages in life are we not?

Anonymous said...

He said simply:
I am going to a party.
He did not say where.
He did not say what, if any, river it was near.

How did I know?
Where did this information come from?
Not from me.

He was soaked thru, nearly died and he did not find it funny how I knew what I did.

boomSLANG said...

Re: the Christian "psychic".

Anonymous, I say that the explanation likely boils down to one of three things:

Either,

A) You do have a "sixth sense".

B) Your described aforementioned "predictions" are nothing more than improbable coincidence, to which you then embroidered in an attempt to make them seem more impressive.

C) The events are purely fabricated, and/or, urban legend, because you have no other evidence for your Theological hypothesis...i.e.."God is real!"

_____________________________________

If "A", and you have a meta-physical "sense", then let's ask some questions based on that, shall we? Can we make predictions about your alleged ability to make predictions? Can we test it? Let's try: I'll jot down a number between 1 and 100 and stick it under my mouse pad.(done) Now, you use your "sixth sense" to predict the number. After all, we are presumably supposed to be impressed with the "odds" that out of ALL the things your friend could've done that night, that YOU predicted that your friend would hang out by a lake or river, or whatever, and fall in. So, in the same way, dazzle us by defying the odds in our number prediction game, as well.

BTW, a "lake" or "river" in Michigan? Nah, say it aint so. But seriously, for all we know, to go guzzle beer down by the "Clinton river" is tradition where you're from, thus, tremendously altering those "miraculous" odds of you predicting it.

Moreover, even if you guess the number under my mouse pad, and can continue to make successful "hits", this does nothing to make invisible imps, fairies, pixies, or deities a "reality". It just means it's unexplained(for the time being)

Moving on---if "B", then there's really no reason to think that there's anything "supernatural" going on, as improbable coincidences happen every day. BTW, why is it you never hear of a psychic predicting the next car bombing over in London, thus, preventing it? Think about it.

Lastly, if "C", and your story is complete fabrication, or a repeat of some other apologetic urban legend, I'd ask that you either offer up some credible evidence for your chosen deity at this time, or move it along.

Anonymous said...

Agh. OK for clarification I was responding to the post that started with saying "The Bible says what it says." I haven't a clue how suddenly so many anonymous posts got between it and my reply. Sorry. But hey, why can't all you anonies choose a screen-name?? Please?? -Wes.

Anonymous said...

What I am talking about is doubting, dismissing something that is thought to be crazy. Looking for any possible explanation to carry you away from having to face something you don't want to believe is true or can be true or will, in the future pan out to be true.

Going off on your way in life, having waved it aside with a shake of your head and then......
WHAM!

IT HAPPENS.

I can't explain it but it happens.
And when it does, there is no denying it.

I predicted a car accident, my own. I went out doubting it, doing my best to drive safely. I applied for a job in a strange town, with a ton of one way streets, was in a hurry, having gotten lost, and messed up. I was at fault.

Ok, people have car accidents but to have it unfold as it did with exactly the kind and type of damage to the car as I did? The other fellow skidded just as I saw before It happened. Everybody was fine. I asked the cop "What do we do? "Nothing! I write you a ticket" he said.

My pal was not pleased and looked at me strangely. First I predict him almost drowning and then smash the only car we have just like I said I dreamed of. I try to tell him it's ok but he told me to look at the car!

What are things you don't want to believe in in your life, things you doubt that later turn out to come along and knock you on your butt senseless and as you sit there stunned, you are forced to admit have come true nonetheless and you have no way of explaining it.

People rebell against the Bible because they don't want to believe that it is and will come true.
Well, neither do I with my experiences.
Doesn't stop it from happening.
Unless you do something.
Do someting in faith.

Go anyways, keep him from getting drunk or at least pull his ass out of the river or keep him away from the river and it had been years since we attended any party let alone one by a river bank.
As for my premonitions, I think it is like the Bible
Like the Bible, it's hokey, and we don't understand it and it does what it pleases and takes no orders from us and we are all bent out of shape because we are not in the drivers seat with it. It happens no matter what.

I have my little tip off, before it happens. My little warning or news flash and no matter if I like it, or figure it out, or if I am going to have faith enough to believe it and possibly do something good like go along and pull my pal out of the rushing river. No matter. It will happen.
It does happen.

It gets to the point that I can't doubt it. However I am still like folks here. I am not prepared to let it run, dictate and control my life.

Christianity is sufficently screwy enough that it makes perfect sense to be true!

As for Jesus being dead.

Why is everybody saying his name all the time as a swear word?
When was the last time you hear people shout out other names when they slam their hand in a car door or get bad news.

People cussing and saying:

Oh, Allah
or

Oh Buddah,

or
any other name.
But No!

It's always
Jesus or Jesus Christ
or Christ or whatever
I'm going to start asking folks if the believe in him when I hear his name.
If they don't then why are they using the name in cussing?

Unbelievers make him real when they use the name.
He's real due to believers and unbelievers alike.

We can't stop it.
This name will get mentioned every time somebody prays or drops something on their foot.


Since when did God become synonamous with dropping someting heavy on your foot?

Why this particular God.

Lets exclain the name of Allah every time instead of saying Jesus Christ all the time.

signed,
the anounomouse

dano said...

Anonymous doesn't know what a screen name is, or he didn't read w/m warning about deleting all posts without a screen name, or he doesn't know how to click on the other button and make one up,

Anonymous! If it's the latter here is a suggestion for a screen name.

(SHIRLEY MACLAINE)

Your welcome,
Dan, Agnostic

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that whomever or whatever does not say: "Oh by the way, I'm so and so and I'm the one who is telling you shit before it happens.

No mention of who the whisperer is.

Evidence of possession is many things.
Levitation is one of them.

Thank God I can't do that!

But, "Knowledge of things you have not been told"

That is proof of possession.
I'm told this is a thing we all have that is there to protect me.

No thanks. I don't want it.

Ok,

I want this shit to stop. I want it out of me. It is unwelcome.
I feel invaded and violated as all hell.

If somebody is to drown or not drown in a river I don't want to be aware of it before or after it happens. Keep me out of it. I don't want to be playing about with the powers of the universe. I am not worthy. Just let me live my life.

dano said...

I cut and pasted this from another thread.
Advice I gave another anonymous.
Dan

Anonymous,
You can go to any hospital emergency room and ask for help, and at least, maybe head off a complete disintegration of your personality.

Just go up to the admitting desk, and tell them that you are crazy, and you are afraid that you may hurt someone.
Dan, Agnostic

boomSLANG said...

The "ouch" argument for the existence of God:

1) People drop things on their feet.

2) It hurts

3) People in the West say, "Jesus Christ!..that hurts!"

4) Therefore, God exists.

boomSLANG said...

The "psychic power" argument for the existence of God:

0) I knew I'd be driving in a strange town where I wasn't familiar the streets, so......

1) I predicted I would get in an automobile accident.

2) I got in an accident.

3) The car skidded to avoid hitting me, just like I predicted.(unheard of!)

4) See?....I told you!

5) Therefore, God exists.

alanh said...

Anonymous wrote:

He nearly drowned in the God Damned...... CLINTON RIVER!

How does someone accidentally fall into a river? And why would a "devout Christian" who supposedly reads the Bible every day and receives messages from god violate one of the ten commandments?

I want this shit to stop. I want it out of me. It is unwelcome.
I feel invaded and violated as all hell.


Portraying your "magical powers" as an unwanted burden doesn't make them more credible.

Anonymous said...

I am simply asking a group of exchristians for their explanation of what they think psychic and precognative stuff is all about.

Anonymous said...

My friend was drunk, maybe he was wading and fell in the rushing water.

I violate the 10 commandments because I am a human being just like yourself. Human beings violate the 10 commandments all the time!

or are you sinless?

Because I am in the mood to swear? maybe as well?

If we don't believe in God here in this little group then why are you attributing it to God?

My question is:
Where does this shit come from?

What is your explanation?
Or do you have none, as you run away from Christianity?

Anonymous said...

Ok,

I will leave the group here for all time.

It's been fun and enlightening but has gotten old, quick.


-anonomouse

Anonymous said...

Not only, not crazy.
Never have hurt anybody, you idiot!
quite the opposite
mean spirited and unhelpful post

bye!

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous: I am simply asking a group of exchristians for their explanation of what they think psychic and precognative stuff is all about.

Right, and unless you have a serious reading comprehension problem, you'd see that NONE of our "group" are convinced that you have such "powers". BTW, did you miss the "psychic challenge"?...you know, the one that was issued to you on "July 21" in this very thread?

To review, I wrote down a # between 1 and 100, and slipped the paper under my mouse pad, where it still sits. Please, Anony, this is your big chance to put those "encumbering magical powers" of yours to work, thus, unequivocately proving that you have such "powers". Waiting.

Anony': I violate the 10 commandments because I am a human being just like yourself. Human beings violate the 10 commandments all the time!

Precisely, and that's because at certain times, violating said "Commandments" is perfectly ethical. It is perfectly ethical to "kill" someone if they threaten you, or your family's life. It also must be perfectly ethical to earn a living on the Sabbath, since MILLIONS of Christians do so, or at the very least, support the demand. This seems pretty indicative that said "Commandments" were inspired, NOT by a "God", but likely by the drunken uneducated fisherman of that era.

Anonymous: or are you sinless?

In case you missed it--there is no "sin", Anony'....only what is unethical.

Annoynomous: If we don't believe in God here in this little group then why are you attributing it to God?

Firstly, this "little group" isn't as little as what you'd like to believe. Hopefully, in another 2000 yrs, people will scoff at Christianity, just like Christians scoff at all other religions.

Secondly----WTF???..wHO, here, attributed your little magic act to "God"? lol

Anony': My question is:
Where does this shit come from?


Um, your imagination?

Anony': What is your explanation? Or do you have none, as you run away from Christianity?

My explanation is that you suffer from self-delusion. Can you tell me the number under my mouse pad? Or can't you do it, as you run away from reality?

alanh said...

Anonymous wrote:

...maybe he was wading and fell in the rushing water

It seems odd that your friend almost drowns but you don't know how it happened.

I violate the 10 commandments because I am a human being just like yourself.

Anon, Christians usually try to obey this one:

Deuteronomy 5:11: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

What is your explanation?

Boom already answered that question. If you are receiving messages from god then why are you asking us?

boomSLANG said...

Alanh: It seems odd that your friend almost drowns but you don't know how it happened.

Good observation. "Psychic for Christ" predicts his friend's near-death misadventure; allegedly sees the aftermath, but yet, doesn't ask for details as to how it actually happened? I smell a rat.

Hi Anony'. 1 - 100. Waiting.

(hint: it's between 50 and 100.)

Anonymous said...

I don't believe the messages are from God.

I don't think God wastes His time playing head games telling people things before they happen.

The friend falling in the river happened in 1999 I don't remember exactly and I was not there. I went into shock.

I tend to think that the precognative stuff is not from God but rather something else or somebody else.

the source does not identify itself and that's what started my little rant that has annoyed the group here. Should not have said "little group" as you took offense. No, when I stop to think about it the group may already be far larger than you think. Good point!
Deuteronomy 5: 11

add it to list of other verses, I mess up on.
I am ethical and will strive to remain so. Good point!

Do Psychics get a good reception here?
My friend was too shook up and he just had all doubt of my psychic- ness removed during the experience. He did not want to talk about it.

Anonymous said...

81 is the number under your mouse pad.

Hows that for a guess?

Look, I don't close my eyes and ask it to answer questions upon my command. It don't work like that and I'm grateful. I'll be mowing lawn or something and something will pop in my head and then it happens.

This is spotty and thankfully, it happens infrequently.
If I see lottery numbers I'll pick up 20 of you in the limo and we'lll go to lunch!
have a good day

SEO said...

Anony: "I don't think God wastes His time playing head games..."

Quoi? If your god is in charge of all this then he does nothing BUT fuck with people with pure unadulterated glee.

boomSLANG said...

Anony': I don't believe the messages are from God.

Right, and I'm pretty sure there's unamimous concurrence on this. To be safe--those "messages"?...they aren't from a supernatural being; they're from your own imagination.

Anony': I don't think God wastes His time playing head games telling people things before they happen.

Right, right...of course not---once again, the Theist attempting to validate "God" in the positive, but using negative attributes..i.e.."God doesn't" do this or that; "God isn't" this or that. Sort of like, "I don't think Sparky the transparent clown plays head games telling jokes to people who don't believe in Him."

Anony': The friend falling in the river happened in 1999 I don't remember exactly and I was not there. I went into shock.

Shock? It get's better and better!

Annoynomous: I tend to think that the [precognitive] stuff is not from God but rather something else or somebody else.

Let's review: You don't have "precognitive" powers.

Anony': I am ethical and will strive to remain so. Good point!

I'm not confident you "get" the "point". The point is that there is no objective Truth to be ascertained in the bible. Most of it's "Commandments" are down-right silly and out-moded, and the ones that remain applicable, are common sense, and even those vary from culture to culture.

Question: Do Psychics get a good reception here?

Answer: No, dellusional teenaged wannabe-mystics aren't well received here.

Anony': 81 is the number under your mouse pad. Hows that for a guess?

Not bad...86. Good guess...but keep your day-job.

Anony': This is spotty and thankfully, it happens infrequently.
If I see lottery numbers I'll pick up 20 of you in the limo and we'lll go to lunch!


Ironically, a few months back we actually had a Christian guest stumble in here and claim that Jesus gave him some winning numbers in a dream. lol...K'cHiNg!

Anonymous said...

Non delusional, 30 something, and definitly a non- wanna be mystic.

Wanna be? You didn't read me saying that I don't want, or like this happening to me.
You don't hear me crying that I wish I could drive it out of me?

Fear of ridicule is a powerful thing.

Somebody, just change the subject from here on and I'll keep quiet.

boomSLANG said...

Anonymous? You're a Theist, specifically a Christian Theist, are you not? If so, and you want to engage the regulars on this EX-christian website in intelligent discussion, then fine, but you'll need to first adopt a pseudonym, and then before posting one more word, please remember that blathering on about your personal alleged supernatural encounters holds zero weight here, until you can substantiate these experiences beyond your own mind. Hint: Thus far, you have not. Affirming the consequence is a fallacious argument 'round these parts.

Bye now.

Anonymous said...

Seems the webmaster here has a thing in common with the evil Catholic vatican jesuit bastards.

He removes posts he does not like or agree with. This is censorship and it's wrong.
Hide it away, burn it, remove it. Only the official webmaster approved version is fit to see print huh?

Bastard!

.:webmaster:. said...

All I ask, anonymous troll, is that people click the "other" button and sign the post with a consistent pseudonym.

Have a nice day, Christian.