Dear Believer
by Dan Barker Dear Believer, — You asked me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful. You expect me to believe Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a ghost? Do you believe all the crazy tales of ancient religions? Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Seutonius said Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died; and Buddha was supposedly born speaking. You don’t believe all that, do you? Why do you expect me to swallow the fables of Christianity? I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, ...
Comments
I proudly proclaim my foolishness and always will!
By the way, I don't think tigg's a hypocrite. In my opinion, honest epistemological contemplation leads A)away from mainstream christianity and B)to precisely the radical skepticism expressed in that daoist saying. Now, if like Socrates you know that you don't know, it hardly follows that you should sit in any temple, daoist, christian or other, and pray. I too know that I don't know, but admittedly I'm not proud of it. Being overly confident about ones opinions or having to have unshakable opinions (because they're "MY" opinions, and I'm the cleverest person in the world) on just about everything -- that's foolishness.
"It's the very same fallacy committed by many christians. Like, I have evolved from lower mammals, this I know, for Mr. Dawkins tells me so."
' Seems odd to caricature an Atheist argument while trying to show a fallacy argument committed by Christians. 'Would've made more sense to say:
"It's the very same fallacy committed by many christians: Like, my great-great-GREAT grandparents were created out of dirt, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
Just sayin'...
The point of the video was to refute the Wholly Bile lie about people not believing in God are fools.
BTW, I don't "believe" in evolution, I accept it due to the overwhelming evidence. Dawkins just doesn't assert it. He relies on evidence and defends science against the world of make-believe.
I loved the video. If I hear an Xtian use the "fool hath said in his heart there is no God," I reply with: "And if you don't believe in *my* imaginary friend, you're a stinky doo-doo head. What is the mental age of your god? Two?"
As far as Daoist contributions go, I'd say Daoism itself is a pretty nice contribution.
And who says Malaysian temples don't have internet access?
Sounds to me like you think you know what you're talking about.
Sounds like "tiny tim simmons" hasn't got his mind out of the "christian gutter" way of thinking.
Yr an arse-wipe, Timbo!!
Maybe I've been indulging in a little nitpicking session or just plain misunderstood or overinterpreted the clip, that's possible.
Yes, Auther, I agree. That's one way of looking at it---however, you can look at it like it shows the UNtruth of religious convictions. Yes, those pesky unreasonable convictions: unchanging; sweeping generalizations; blanketed statements, "one size fit's all", etc, etc,....in other words, "absolute" philosophies about "Truth", which of course, is what the Holy Bible claims.(and every other "Holy" book)
The point is, as a reasonable person, I would think that a "foolish intellect" is an oxymoron, no? That said, if it can be shown that the religious convictions of the dark ages crumble in light of we know in the present, then sure, that doesn't say that Atheism is absolutely true in and of itself, but it sure as hell(pun) shows that the universe in NOT static...or "unchanging", which, by definition is what the Holy Bible claims, thereby making it's claims FALSE.
Moreover, Atheism isn't about "absolutes" in the first place.....it's about neutrality, and letting science dictate what we know about the universe. So again, religious convictions fail miserabley.
Take care.
However, I guess I didn't get the same message from this clip as you. The message I got from the clip is that the Christian stereotype that atheism is akin to demon worship is terribly flawed. I don't know how many times I've heard, "Stalin and Mao were atheists! Is that the kind of world you want?" Yet, a vast number of individuals who embrace an atheistic/secular worldview are positive, highly respected people, who are good neighbors and use their talents and resources to help others. I think that's all the examples in the clip are meant to signify.
Don't forget that Buddhism is older than Christianity and since Buddha rejected all "gods" I guess that also makes Jesus an Atheist!
Arthur, you are right. It isn't embracing Atheism that makes one intellectually superior to anyone. Claiming that there is no God doesn't make us any smarter or more enlightened than the religious unless we have sufficient evidence to prove it or to at least cast doubt upon religions' claims. Atheists, by nature are skeptical and honor the truth regardless of where it leads even if it leads us right back to where we started given enough factual information to support a belief in God (highly unlikely, but nevertheless, a possiblity). Just because we are Athiests doesn't mean we should throw reason out the window as soon as we hear someone debunking Christianity if the argument they present isn't sound. However, perhaps your are being a little nitpicky :-)
The video doesn't doesn't make the argument that "atheism is true." It merely refutes "The fool hath said in his heart. . ." It's not a fallacy. I's a liberating observation from society. It shows that there are atheists we can look up to and who are heroic, that you can be atheistic, but still good and wise [or just beautiful, like Angelina; don't know much else about her].
Understanding the facts in this video helps remove the intimidation factor from saying, "I have lost faith." It encourages ex-Christians, and that is exactly what this site is intended to do. Thanks for posting it.
The ones that are already deceased are no longer atheists for sadly now they know the truth
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Actually, the one's who are dead know NOTHING, just as you will know nothing when you croak.
ATF
Poor, poor, god. He weeps, he wrings his hands, he begs and pleads for us to "come home." Yet, we little dust specks called human just keep right on thwarting HIS will at every turn.
Powerful human. Weak god.
Christian, if your Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then the sins of the whole world have been washed away.
But no Christian believes that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Christians only believe that Jesus died for those who become Christians. Unless a person repents and believes the gospel, and shows his sincerity by becoming a religious drone, there is no salvation for that person. Jesus' sacrifice is only granted to those who become Christians.
And that means that salvation is not really a gift, it is used as barter for subservience. No one has to do anything to receive a real gift. A bribe, however, is another matter.
Christians do believe that Jesus dies for the sins of the whole world. Your sins have already been paid. However, if you choose to tell Jesus that you would rather not accept His payment, then He won't force His gift on you. He won't force you to live with Him for eternity; He won't force you to love Him; He won't force Himself on you as your Lord and Savior. YOu are right and wrong when you say that you don't have to do anything for a gift. You are right because you can't earn a gift but the only thing that you have to do for a gift is accept it. If you don't accept a gift, then you can't get it.
He loved you so much that He said if you choose to go to Hell, which was originally prepared for the devil and his fallen angels, then you'll have to step over His crucified body to get there. You see, if you choose that you don't want God then there is no where left to go except for Hell. After we die we will be fixed in our decision. If you choose to turn away from your sins then you will be fixed in your decision and without sin. If you don't choose repentance and to stay in your sinful state, then you will be fixed in that sinful state throughout all eternity. No one with sin can be in God's presence because of His holiness, so there is no other place for you to be but Hell. You see, people choose their own destinies and the reality of Hell does not depend on your belief in it.
I wonder what you mean by "accepting His payment." It seems to me that if a debt is paid, and it is freely paid, then there isn't much to say about it. If someone comes and pays my bank loan, it's paid. I can go back and tell the generous person I don't accept his payment, but the debt is still paid. If, however, what accepting the payment really means is that I become that person's slave, well, that's not a gift -- that's called being purchased. Now which is it, a "free gift" or an offer that I become totally subservient in lieu of being tortured forever?
"He won't force you to live with Him for eternity"
But HE will force me to live forever in horrific agony.
"He won't force you to love Him"
But HE will force me to endure unimaginable torment forever if I don't love HIM.
"He won't force Himself on you as your Lord and Savior."
But HE will punish me in the most sadistic ways unimaginable for all of eternity, without chance of parole or reformation, if I don't make him my Lord and Savior.
"The only thing that you have to do for a gift is accept it. If you don't accept a gift, then you can't get it."
OK, in that case, I accept it. Thanks. Are you sure there isn't more to it than that?
"He loved you so much that He said if you choose to go to Hell, then you'll have to step over His crucified body to get there."
I don't choose to go to hell. In fact, I'm not convinced that such a heinous place even exists. Surely a god of infinite, unconditional love wouldn't create such a place for any of His creatures, would He? Why would an omnipotent being need to create a terrible place like that, where millions and billions of sentient beings that HE created are forced to live forever? If you love something, you have to be willing to set it free. Instead, this god of yours shows ITS love by imprisoning anyone or anything that simply doesn't believe IT exists.
"You see, if you choose that you don't want God then there is no where left to go except for Hell."
So your god doesn't have enough imagination to make a few other alternative choices that aren't quite so repulsive? I mean, apparently this planet offers quite a few options for living other than being a Christian. Yet somehow, in the next life there are only two choices? That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
"After we die we will be fixed in our decision."
And why is that? You mean to tell me that if I merely have the wrong thoughts in my head about the existence of your god, I get tortured forever? That's really weird.
"If you choose to turn away from your sins then you will be fixed in your decision and without sin."
I did that. It didn't stick. But I thought this salvation thing was a gift. Now I have to "turn away from my sins?" What is this, a gift or an exchange of some sort?
"If you don't choose repentance and to stay in your sinful state, then you will be fixed in that sinful state throughout all eternity."
Again, is this a gift or not? It seems to me you are now telling me I have to "do something" to earn salvation. And why no chance of reform or parole for good behavior? Why an eternity of horror for temporal errors?
"No one with sin can be in God's presence because of His holiness, so there is no other place for you to be but Hell."
And why did you say your God set it up that way? Surely He isn't threatened by humans, is He? Surely He could have come up with a better plan than torturing people for simply not believing in the correct version of the "right" religion!
"You see, people choose their own destinies and the reality of Hell does not depend on your belief in it."
That's the first thing you said that makes sense. Simply believing something is real doesn't make it real.
Your god doesn't love people, he loves Himself. If He is disrespected by (horror of horror) disbelief, he retaliates by keeping human beings alive forever so they can be tortured eternally.
Why would anyone want to spend even ten minutes with a perverse god like that?
Oh, and you might want to read my anti-testimonial. I very well know the fundie rhetoric you are parroting. I was a dogmatic, fundamentalist Christian for 30 years. Then I educated myself and found out what a doofus I'd been. Hopefully you'll escape the cult, too.
I am really sorry that you have chosen to turn away from the grace GOd has given you. THe thing that you don't seem to understand is that we ALL are sinners and have done things worthy of hell. IT is what we all deserve. GOd is holy and just. Yes, He is a God of love but He is also a just God that has to punish sin. You wouldn't think it was justice if people were allowed to do any horrible thing that they wanted and get away with it. You'd be screaming for justice. Well just means that God has to punish sin, which is why Hell exists. However, He doesn't want you to go there. Choosing Him means you are choosing to hate the sins you commit like He does. It means that you want to be like Him and hate sin. I have chosen Him because I hate the sins I have committed and I want to be like Him. He gave us the free will to make the choice and I have done the smart thing and given the gift of free will back to Him and said that I know if I use my own will, I will mess up every time. But if you choose to keep your free will then you will be eternally fixed in that sinful state- by your OWN choice. Because it is what you weanted instead of Him. But then you'll have to pay the price for the horrible sins you have committed instead of letting Christ pay for it for you. I really don't understand why people think that choosing Christ is such a horrible thing. It isn't like He tells us to do things that are bad. IS there anything in the Bible that Christ tells us to do that you think is so bad? BUt maybe that is the problem - people want to do the sinful things that they do and therefore don't want Christ to Lord over them to do the right things. Anyway, I will pray for you that you will repent and come to Christ before it is too late.
Me again! I just read your testimony - at least most of it - like you suggested. It seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that for the most part, you have rejected Christianity because there were things you didn't understand and the particular pastors that you asked couldn't answer your questions. That is unfortunate. It is unfortunate that the particular Pastors you asked weren't knowledgable enough about the scriptures to answer those questions. It is unfortunate that you decided that since they couldn't answer the questions and you couldn't answer the questions, then therefore it must not be true. It is unfortunate that you decided to trust human beings to give you the answers instead of going to God and sincerely seeking wisdom from Him to understand. From my understanding, that is what a personal relationship with Christ is all about. Did you have a personal relationship with Christ or was your religious experience all about following rules, traditions and acts of service? I ask because I read a lot about the things you "did" for God and the things you asked other human beings about God, but I didn't remember reading anything your relationship with God, such as things you would talk to Him about and the things He would speak to you about and reveal to you and do for you and the ways He would move in your life, etc. I know at one point you said that you had an experience which was some type of feeling of His presence, but still nothing about an actual relationship. It was also suspect when you mentioned that you felt guilt about thoughts you had when you were an adolescent. Guilt does not come from God, so I wonder if you were bound by some sort of legalism and not a real relationship. (As well-read as you are on doctrine I am assuming that I don't have to explain what I mean by legalism.) What I read didn't sound like relationship to me. If you ever had a real relationship with Christ, and not just a "religious experience" as many professing Christians have, then no one would have to convince you of these things because you would already know that you know from your own relationship with Him. Why don't you try to put all the religious stuff behind and have a true relationship with your creator.
You really win the prize of the week for CLUELESS XTIAN.
So step right up and collect your prize: An all expense paid trip to your local library, where you can study the history of your mythical sad religion and find some clues about it's true HUMAN origins.
Note: Food, Lodging and prize taxes owed, are not included in your winnings.
I have more to say, but I'm biting my tongue, like Boomslang, until the webmaster finds time to 'enlighten' you first.
ATF (who wishes these fundies would read the thousand other fundie posts BEFORE parroting the same old crap again)
God took the first step in showing His love, He's not going to force you to love Him. What's not to love, He's Loving, Merciful and Just. Don't you like righteousness ATF and BoomSLANG?
Have you not noticed how you/we simply cannot live as righteously as Jesus did?
Don't sweat it, He's here to help. If you ask Him He'll give you real Wisdom that leads to Life!
What's not to love, He's Loving, Merciful and Just. Don't you like righteousness ATF and BoomSLANG?
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Anymouse,
I MIGHT like "A" god's righteousness, if one actually existed that I deemed as righteous and worthy of my respect.
Your OT volcano god was nothing less than a wack-job and a brat-child, who had a huge tendency to throw temper-tantrums when he/she/it did get it's favorite toy to play with.
While your jesus (son of volcano god) was a wee bit better, he was no fun to be around either, especially when he refused to help someone or decided it would be fun game to destroy an innocent fig tree, just to show off his power from anger.
Now anymouse, if you have any credible evidence that your jesus buddy ever walked this earth and did all them miracles, you might get our attention.
Until you provide such evidence, you're merely a 'boy crying wolf' at us.
Let me know if your 'wolf' god ever shows his face for real, m'kay.
ATF (who is so BEYOND believing in this lame god propaganda stuff)
I challenge you to list a few things you are guilty of that would justly warrant an eternity of horrific torment. As the cliché goes, the punishment should fit the crime. What crimes against providence have you committed that are so heinous and grievous that that the only way everlasting justice can be served is by seeing you sadistically tortured forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever?
If my life ends tomorrow, I’ll have lived nearly 50 years. Wouldn’t 50 years of roasting in your god’s fire pit suffice as a just punishment for my disbelief? No? OK, perhaps those times I looked at porn and masturbated really made your god mad. Or how about that time I took a towel from the hotel! Horrors! That probably really pissed your god off. How about 10,000 years on slow roast? Still not enough? Fine, how about 100 billion years of being tortured for all the nasty little things I did while alive on earth? Still not enough? You mean your god isn’t satisfied yet?
Well since when is imprisoning someone in a dungeon and torturing the person, but keeping him or her alive FOREVER for an eternity of torture, considered good? That view of justice is sick. It’s called cruel and inhuman. It's medieval, archaic, primitive, and mean.
Nicky wrote, ”You'd be screaming for justice.”
It’s not justice I have a problem with. It’s the idea that justice to you means keeping someone alive forever and horrifically torturing that person throughout all eternity just because they were born. As you said, “We are ALL sinners." So apparently, we all deserve to be tortured forever. Babies. Kids. Retarded people. Average, nice, hardworking families. In fact, everyone who doesn’t become a fundamentalist Christian deserves to be tortured forever, at least in your worldview. That perversely caricatured rendition of justice is ridiculous.
”Well just means that God has to punish sin, which is why Hell exists. However, He doesn't want you to go there.”
Bible-God is presented as sovereign and omnipotent. If HE doesn’t want me to go to hell, then I am not going to hell, for “who has resisted his will?” Read Romans 9.
As to the rest of your questions, I’ll have to admit that I did not have a personal relationship with Jesus or the creator. The reason I didn’t have a personal relationship with either of these characters, is because neither of them exist outside of our imaginations. So, in essence, no one has a personal relationship these guys, because these guys are imaginary. Now, if you had asked me if at one time I had believed with all my heart, soul and mind that I had a real, living, personal relationship with a living, real, Jesus, then I would answer yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And, I used to tell other people that if they only had a met Jesus like I had met Jesus, then they would know HE was real. For years, no one could have convinced me that Jesus wasn't with me all the time. I KNEW my creator and HE loved me.
All of that was only all in my mind, kid. Just like any religious fanatic. Just like you.
Now, I have a question: How old are you?
Ooo! Ooo!...I, for one, am most certainly in awe of who created me, and I give them much respect and thanks, as well. However, it all stops at "worship". Of course, this works out well, because after all, my biological parents(my creators) wouldn't think of COMMANDING that I worship them, much less would they set me on fire for refusing to worship them. You'll only find that kind of ridiculous, idiotic behavior, in ancient mythology.
Okay, now that that little mystery is cleared up: Anony', if you expect us to believe that we, and our parents, and their parents before them, and their parents before them....and on, and on, and on, are the f%cking "great grandchildren" of two Caucasian prototype humanoids who were created out of "dirt" by a Divine magician, and then, later tossed in a jungle, where they were then "busted" in a sting-operation executed by a talking f%cking snake, then you'd better have some damned good evidence, okay pal? 'Listening.
Annoyin'us continues: God took the first step in showing His love, He's not going to force you to love Him.
Oh, good-heavens, no, no, NO!....of course Gawd is not going to force you to love him. Good grief!... we are perfectly "free" to choose the only other alternative, which again, is to be thrown in a pit, kept alive, and perpetually scorched with fire!! See?....now that's not technically "force", is it? Much in the same way a mugger is not forcing you to give him or her your wallet; you are perfectly "free" to be noncompliant, and have your brains splattered against the dumpster! See?[/heavy sarcasm]
Religious dolt: What's not to love, He's Loving, Merciful and Just.
What's not to love? Reread the above, for starters. After you do that, please know that I don't particularly "love" the idea of sharing the planet with superstitious mystics such as yourself---people who propagate such rubbish. Those things are what's "not to love". 'Got it?
Religious dolt: Don't you like righteousness ATF and BoomSLANG?
Gee, I don't know..is using threats, coersion, and manipulation to get what you want, your idea of righteous? If so, then nah.... I'll pass, thanks.
Religious dolt: Have you not noticed how you/we simply cannot live as righteously as Jesus did?
Have you not noticed that the behavior of this alleged "Jesus" character that you seem to love to extol, is often times on a level of that of 5 yr-old little brat?..especially when he doesn't get his way? The difference being, the 5 yr-old child stomps his feet when he doesn't get his way; the christian biblegod commences to KILL people when he doesn't get his way. 'Slight difference.
Religious dolt: Don't sweat it, He's here to help. If you ask Him He'll give you real Wisdom that leads to Life!
News flash: I already have "life", dipshit...and fortunately, enough wisdom and courage to realize that Christianity, like all religions, is utter bullshit.....similar to how you think all other religions but your own, are the same.
The same old crap that if you'd listen to any of it you'd find yourself in awe of your creator
First, are you 'nickiname' or someone else perhaps?
I thought at first you were 'nickiname', but now I'm not so sure. In fact, you sound like a 'favorite' troll that loves to enlighten us from time to time.
But either way, let's move on.
Exactly what in the known universe that sometimes has me in 'awe', would I attribute to your invisible god having anything to do with it?
While science doesn't have all the answers to how it all came-to-be, they are doing pretty darn well so far in explaining how nature took care of itself, without any 'steps' included from the magic of a god(s).
In fact, things make beautiful sense, if one removes your magical bible god from the equations, and things only get overly complex and mysterious when we insert your impossible-to-prove god, back into any equation.
While you still choose to believe in a fairy tale god (does he ride a white horse to?), some of us realized your god was just a more elaborate plan to brainwash us, just as had been done with Santa and Personal Guardian-Angels myths when we were too young to know any better.
God took the first step in showing His love, He's not going to force you to love Him. What's not to love, He's Loving, Merciful and Just. Don't you like righteousness ATF and BoomSLANG?
You do realize that this love relationship you have with your god is all ONE SIDED, right?
Worse, can you even give your god a great big bear hug when you need to?
No, the best you can do is to pray to god and then open your bible to a random page to find the god-given-reply to your prayer.
God never talks back to any believer, except for the little voices they sometimes hear inside their own minds.
Why is your god keeping himself such a huge secret?
Now let's suppose that your god has his reasons for not being obvious when non-believers are around to witness some action of his.
Ahh, but why would god fear showing himself to a group of xtians that he knows are ALL confirmed believers in his existence?
See, I'm thinking this god of yours should at least be doing GROUP TALKS with his devoted believers, right?
This way, they would all hear god talking to them at the same time, saying the exact same thing.
Don't even go down the road of talking in tongues as filling that need, because that is such BS and you know it.
Have you not noticed how you/we simply cannot live as righteously as Jesus did?
You assume two things here for some reason:
1. That your bible jesus was the edification of the word "righteous".
2. That we have some desire to be AS righteous as you assume jesus is assumed by you xtians to be.
First off I see enough reasons from the actions and personality of your jesus, to highly doubt he would get anywhere near a perfect score in this righteous category.
Many of us find plenty to disagree with in regards to his words and actions in your bible book.
Then you assume that we should desire to mirror ourselves after his chosen human lifestyle.
Let me ask you this:
Did jesus have a libido to keep under wraps?
Did jesus chop of his male parts to make sure he wouldn't have (or use) those human urges that most of us have throughout our lives?
If you say it wasn't a problem for jesus, then are you're saying that even as a boy going through puberty, with raging hormones, that jesus was immune to the chemical effects of those hormones upon his now HUMAN body of mortal flesh?
I ask this because he sure didn't have a problem showing many other HUMAN EMOTIONS, even at the age of 12.
So why would he lack any sex drive as a teenager?
Perhaps the reason we have no history in your bible of jesus as a teenager is because he couldn't control his libido and all the girls we're chasing after him, so the authors had no choice but to leave his teen years out of the good-book.
In any case, I would NOT want to fashion my ways after the way you assume your jesus had lived his life.
Nothing could be more, well, BORING!!!
So thanks, but no thanks, I'll pass on your offer there, m'kay.
Don't sweat it, He's here to help. If you ask Him He'll give you real Wisdom that leads to Life!
So then can we assume you have this god-given-wisdom, hmmm?
That means that the holy spirit must reside inside you, correct?
Would you say that this holy spirit is smart and wise?
I bet you do, right.
So that means you should be able to answer ALL our questions we ask of you, because if you don't personally know an answer, you can always get the answer via this holy spook inside you, right?
Oh no, don't tell us that the holy spook only gives out answers about how to gain eternal life and to please this jesus by bowing down to him on our knees.
Perhaps the spook's knowledge is very limited then, hmmm
Also, ask yourself if the holy ghost is really a part of your god and resides in all you true xtians, then why do you differ from each other so MUCH in what you believe the bible say's?
Don't even think about handing me that excuse that only 'true' xtians know the truth; such as you might claim to be one of those 'true' xtians.
For so many of you make that same claim here, and yet still disagree with each other.
Face it, if your god is real, he shouldn't be so difficult to find when one opens their heart to do so, yet many do just that and claim themselves xtians and yet can't agree on hardly anything about your bible book words.
You are living in a fantasy world and ignore the plethora of evidence that easily shows your god to only be a product of one's imagination.
Good luck in your very personal fantasy world and let us know if you ever wake up from your "Matrix" type delusion of god.
ATF (who so hates being preached at by clueless, naive, take-my-word-for-it, fundies)
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