By Brian Worley of ExMinister.Org A REAL LIFE STORY UNFOLDS
Have you ever experienced such a horrible moment or event in your life that you will never forget? Mine was looking into the heartbroken eyes of the father and mother of two relatives at the funeral home. Knowing that nothing you could say would comfort them in their grief. They had just tragically witnessed the gruesome accident and death of their infant child a few days prior. I wanted to show support by being their with them at a most difficult time.
I had been an exminister for less than a year at the time of the funeral. I had never told them about my leaving the faith and I wasn’t sure if anyone else had told them either. Knowing what I knew about the ministry, I hurt inside knowing that my relatives would be getting worthless “Christian” answers to comfort them. People mean well, but I know that the bible’s answers bring about more questions, and causes more pain than comfort. Ministers know of many Christian people who are “angry with God” because something has happened to the individual that they felt was unfair or unjust from the hand of god. Wise people understand that when a child is BAD often the reason is because that inside they are MAD at something. Their outward bad behavior is actively expressing that they are mad inside.
Why would God allow, cause or permit such a horrible event to take place? From my viewpoint, my relatives were from great families, were devout Christians, and were good natured people. In no way would they be subjects of God’s chastisement. Obviously, coming from a Christian perspective you would want to know why God would allow, cause or permit such a horrible event to take place? Since God is in control then he had to give permission for this….right? God is sovereign, isn’t he? A biblical example would be the story of Job.
Is God that desperate for attention or for glorification? I will ask some rhetorical questions here. How would God be glorified in a situation like this? Is God that desperate for attention or glorification that he needs to be cruel and or unfair to attain it? Why would God give the gift of life and take it away so quickly? There is probably no situation or event that would be more difficult for a Christian minister to deal with than a situation something like this. As an exminister, I saw how cruel the God of the bible was to two very special people by taking away their child. The God of the bible didn’t have to allow this to happen!
Chapter and Verse proof: God confesses to beating his sheep!
There is another type of cruelty from God towards my relatives (or for any Christian) involved here. It is a rather subjective topic about the matter of God chastising his children. Subjective in interpretation to those who are suddenly in the midst of suffering. Ministers use this text when they need it. Ministers use this when a member doesn’t tithe or give or is in opposition or rebellion to whatever that minister is trying to accomplish. You need to read Hebrews chapter 12 to try to get an understanding of this biblical concept.
Hebrews 12: 5 – 8 (KJV)
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as children, MY SON, DESPISE NOT THOU THE CHASTENING OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN THOU ART REBUKED OF HIM.
6. FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVETH HE CHASTTENETH, AND SCOURGETH EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVETH.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons.
God will get to beat you sometime in your life, that is if he doesn't decide to kill you
According to the bible, God will “get you” if you “get out of line with him”. This is what the verse 7 just told you “for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?". Did you know that someone calculated the number of people that the God of the bible had killed within the covers of the bible itself. The conservative estimate was a staggering 32.9 million people had been killed! This is an excellent article posted by Steve Wells, here is the link for you to examine.
The most cruel example that I'm aware of is that God had 2 she bears come from out of the woods and kill 42 little children because these children had mocked Elisha for having a bald head (2 Kings 2: 23-24). I'm laughing at the absurdity of this and cry because of cruelty and thirst for blood that the God of the bible has towards people. I'm embarrassed that I once taught others that the bible is the word of god. God is a brutal murderer! Can he not take a joke about some little kids mocking his prophet?
Christians are ashamed about this teaching Biblical apologists would cringe if you introduced this subject at such a delicate time of grief like my relatives had. I agree with their feelings and feel it would be totally inapproriate as well. One thing that is evident here is that Christians are ashamed about this biblical teaching about God chastising his children. If they were not ashamed then they could mention it at anytime. But being ashamed and ignoring it doesn’t lessen the burden for any Christian whom has had something horrible happen to them. Put yourself in their shoes. You just suffered a horrible time, and every Christian that you know has heard their preacher preach a sermon from this Hebrews text. Imagine what they must be thinking about you? Once again I will introduce a few rhetorical questions here. What did they do to deserve this? It must be pretty bad? Will they learn from this experience and get right with God? Can they look you in the eye again and not think about this? Or worse yet, they will pity you!
Advice to currently suffering Christians
Christians that read this know exactly what I am writing of. Those outside of faith must think that this is a “very sick” thought process and I would agree with them. Now, let me speak to any Christian whom has suffered some horrible or difficult times. Forget about what you think that someone else must or could be thinking about your case, if you can. First, who can know the mind of God (his thought processes)? God’s only sure communication to mankind was the bible and you weren’t around when the bible was being written. So whatever happened to you has no paper trail in the bible, if you know what I mean (you came along 2,000 years later). Even if you were “out of God’s will” (let us suppose that my relatives were) and God did decide to chastise them. Was your “crime” as bad as taking someones life? Probably not! Then your god of the bible lacks good judgement for not making your punishment fit your crime! God must have gotten carried away in his anger and lost control of his judgement. Even if you go by Old Testament standards like and “eye for an eye” the god of the bible isn’t fair in his dealings and quite harsh!
According to your bible, God allowed this to happen to you. I try to make people think with most everything that I write. There are untold number of incidents that happen to Christian people around the world daily. And whenever something “bad” happens to a Christian it cannot be a coincidence since God controls by providence what happens to his people. Since coincidence is ruled out of the equation then there is no other choice except for that Christian to find out what the reason behind this bad event happening to you. Dear Christian, from the exministers perspective you should want to appease the anger of God by avoiding whatever makes him angry to prevent future chastisement. Or, you should await the future blessings that you will receive for God using you like he did since you did nothing wrong. For example, Job for his long sufferring! Once again, the exminister notices that people have to wait for another false promise that should be fulfilled like Job’s was BEFORE he died so that he gets to enjoy it while they live here on earth! Who is kidding who, we all know that the “spin masters” who wrote the bible use the book for control of people who are willing to be enslaved by the bible’s contents. Just another example of cruel and bad psychology of the bible.
Someone needs to knock that smiley face facade off of your cruel religion!
Is that Christian in the molding process like a piece of pottery? Are they being chastised for something that they did that God didn’t approve of? All the Christian apologist can say at these times is (we don’t know) and this is a very convienient answer for them but woefully insufficient as an explanation. We both know that Christianity doesn’t have the answer. It is perfectly OK for Christianity to leave a couple like my relatives “twisting in the wind” with some believers feeling God’s providence or chastisement is at work upon those in grief. People like me feel that someone needs to knock that smiley face facade off of your cruel religion!
Christainities answer for times like these? Christianities two most useful “escape plans” are to act as if they didn’t hear and avoid whatever threatens them(ignore); and throw up their hands and say that they do not know the answer to whatever threatens them(ignorance). Yes, very convienient and effective for people who are sheep like. But what about those of us who demand a reasonable explanation? They are often told by their minister or leader that they will have to get back to them. This is just another form of their avoidance and IF THEY EVER GET BACK to you they still won’t have a sufficient answer for someone who isn’t sheep like. You can be waiting a very long time for their reply. Tell them you will withhold your tithe and offering money until they answer you! (Humor)
Reasonable people see the big picture here. Simply stated the bible isn’t divine, far from it. The bible is full of made up stories, bad psychology and a great cover for those with character issues of their own. If these people (Christian leaders) had character they would resign their positions and find an honorable way to make a living.
Christianity isn’t true, doesn’t work in real life and unworthy of acceptance! Now for you dear Christian! What in the world are you waiting for? In real life Christianity doesn’t work. The bible is just plain old bad literature and dangerous when used as a psychology text! Did you join Christianity for God to look after your well being? Now you know that God is actively viewing your behaviour and you are subject to chastisement when you do wrong things. Your minister doesn’t have the answers to real life situations. They are just hoping that you “keep putting money in the plate” and don’t ask too many or the wrong type of questions. Go ahead ask one to them as a test, then notice their response to it. This time, don’t be a gullible sheep when they give you that same old insufficient line. You must get past this mentality of “God will get you” because God won’t get you. God won’t get you because who is to say that there is a God out their anyway? The great secret out there is that their isn’t any God out there like the bible describes.
If you have made it this far in your journey then you can begin to understand why I and all the other exministers in the world left Christianity. Exministers who left for intellectual reasons have a heart for people and for good conscious reasons won’t subject you as a pawn to this organized chess game. Christianity isn’t worth anymore of your time, talent or money. If you haven’t done so already, read the link on my website on “How Religion Robs People”. You can stay in Christianity and be a sheep (I call it you choosing to be a victim), or choose freedom from religion and go out and enjoy life!
Dear Brian, that was a great and truthful testimonial there. I have great respect for ministers that, "come to the knowlege of the truth" concerning christianity. I know there are plenty of ministers out there that are just "faking it" for the reasons you gave; MONEY!!! Thanks again for your testimonial, and I wish alot more "men of the cloth" like you once were, would step up to the plate, and tell the truth of what they "KNOW" concerning the God of the bible, and it's full of crap "blessings and curses". Peace, Roger...A/A
ReplyDeleteYeah I agree, Many of us I'm sure have experienced many of the great expectations of people wanting reassurance that their loved one is definitely going to a better place than they were before death found them. So to comfort them and to people-please, we lie to them. yes we make up tremendous tales of how much better they are now, then when they were living...how they are sitting at the right hand of god with jesus. This will momentarily justify their grief.
ReplyDeleteWe tell them that god has a greator purpose for them, since god seems to be suddenly short handed and needs to relieve someone to hold up a star in the universe.
I was in a discussion with a christian recently, and he said what else did I have to offer him, that offers hope, comfort and solace?
I said I have nothing, absolutely nothing, except a clear thinking guiltless mind without needless fear of a judgemntal god, of course this wasn't what he wanted, he wanted me to give him a false anchor of hope, a false glimmer of peace, a false comfort for him going into the next world, that is also false. What he clearly wanted was to me to tell him a lie, because a lie is what he would rather cling on to, rather than the truth about ancient bibilical beliefs.
Many of the obituraries arond here read: They went to be with Jesus, They died in the arms of Jesus, They went to be with the Lord, They are at rest with god and Jesus now, They are now in a better place, They are walking in god's footsteps, They are at the throne of god.
Now with the Muslim belief, just exchange god and jesus with allah and mohammad, it's a crazy screwed up world we live in.
Nobody knows for sure, nobody has all the right answers, we simply do not know, so we make up stories to make us believe that we know what our final destination is.
Thanks Brian
If there is no god, your criticisms are of something that does not exist, i.e., no god to complain about.
ReplyDeleteIf they went to be with Jesus, then ultimate hope exists, because anyone can join his side at any time, no matter how bad their record.
Few human groups are so forgiving.
So if its false, then your complaints are about nothing.
If its true, anyone can have ultimate hope, and anyone is welcome, and the situation is not as pointless as you assert.
With that same mind set, I would join Islam, because Allah's hell is much hotter, whatever belief you subscribe to, be sure you have the 'right one'.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous (marc?) wrote:
ReplyDelete>If there is no god, your criticisms are of something that does not exist, i.e., no god to complain about.......So if its false, then your complaints are about nothing.
Wow, you really take-the-cake (cough) Anony-mouse.
First off, you sure like that word "IF" here.
IF IF IF statements, don't hold much water really.
It's not the "something" that doesn't exists, that we criticize here.
It's the believed fable of this non-existent something, that still resides in xtian minds, that we criticize.
This is no less relevant to criticize, than the pink unicorn god that someone might believe truly exists.
If you fundies didn't revolve your life around this mythical being and then push the results of your beliefs on the rest of us, then we'd have no major qualms with your self-delusion.
>If they went to be with Jesus, then ultimate hope exists, because anyone can join his side at any time, no matter how bad their record.
Seeing as how we can't KNOW if they went to your jesus, and have no valid reason to believe they even might have, your 'ultimate hope' clause has the same value as a wooden nickel. So until they make wooden nickels a valid form of currency, your 'hope' will remain just as worthless to us.
>If its true, anyone can have ultimate hope, and anyone is welcome, and the situation is not as pointless as you assert.
I agree, anyone can have the ultimate hope, IF IF IF such a hope was real, but alas, it only exists in your troubled mind.
(See, I can use IF's to)
So let's see, IF IF IF I form a make-believe club and offer a free membership to anyone, does that membership have a single benefit?
I think we're back to those wooden nickels now, ah huh.
ATF
Gods and saviors only exist in thought and there is no evidence for their existance beyond human thought.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious that there is no Christian God. Nonetheless, through the meme of Christianity people are made to believe it is real. Though Christianity is an idle threat, any idle threat can seem real enough with psychological abuse. For the person suffering from this psychological abuse, the criticism of the purveyor of that abuse is anything but a criticism of NOTHING. Upon hearing the criticism of their torturer (real or imagined), many victims are shocked or appalled, especially those that have come to develop Stockholm syndrome in order to cope with the stress heaped upon them by their captor (real or imagined). Hence, the stress resulting from hearing criticism of their imaginary captor is very real, even though the threat is nonexistent.
ReplyDeleteThere are many such examples of this. One need not look far to see the effects of idle threats on children, especially if those threats are followed through with but once. for the victim, this illustrates the possibility that any threat may be real. One need not even suffer from the hands of the maker of the threat: over time, through the intervention of decent people, Christians have become less and less active in their physical violence against others, especially other Christians. Since the God of their religion cannot act, seeing as how it is not real, Christians have relied heavily on violence and threats to enforce others to fall in line with the tenets of their religion. Having noted that Christians, through the enforcement of secular law, are unable to act out as violently as they would like, as often as they would like, then one must consider that they have been forced to rely on THREATS more than ACTION. This is why Christians strike early, reeling in the minds and imaginations of the young with idle promises and threats. For a person that has had the fear of God pushed onto them their entire lives, the criticism of the object of their fear is not something that will be taken lightly.
The point of all this is in response to the Anonymous poster that claims that if there is no God, then our criticisms are for nothing. The poster then enacts a double standard, saying that if there is a God, then there is "ultimate hope," and that it is available to all. Ironically enough, the poster seems to forget the previous criticisms in his/her delegations against the criticisms of imaginary beings.
According to this Anonymous poster, it is wrong to criticize something you do not believe in. This is a logical fallacy: the pointing out of flaws and absuridities in the behavior or consistency of an imaginary being that is part of a socially and personally destructive meme is never wrong. Such criticisms are done with the fact that the being in question is imaginary IN MIND. The point is to illustrate their impossibility. Christians will often cite that atheists should not complain about the Christian God because they do not believe in it, but that is precisely the point. The point, Christians, is to show the wrongness, absurdity, cruelty, malice, impossibility, bigotry, hate, and oppressiveness of the imaginary being that is the Christian God. By doing so, atheists aim to enlighten others and show them the fallacy that is the God of the religion of Christianity.
Of course, I think Christians know this, but in the throes of their religious addiction, they desperately use this logical fallacy not so much to provide honest response to problems with atheistic argument, but in order to soften the blow of criticisms concerning their imaginary antagonizer, and thus delay the stress of seriously criticizing their fallacious beliefs THEMSELVES. Just like our Anonymous friend here did.
So, trancelation, "Christians" use threats?
ReplyDeleteThey use violence?
They "strike early"?
They are "religous addicts".
But you are morally and intellectually superior to them, aren't you?
Its pathetic that you can't see what a bigot you have become.
haha!! you can tell Randall is a current fundie nutcase coz his post contains nothing of value and a personal slander. this technique is common amongst xtians with sub-100 IQ, which most of them are.
ReplyDeleteThe god of xtianity is about as real and worthwhile as Santa claus...but never mind, keep feeding the kiddies lies so when they're old enough they will curse you for propagating the lie that is xtianity.
I'd like to add one more thing in my respomse to the Anonymous post I was referring to earlier.
ReplyDeleteThe Anonymous poster says that atheists are wrong for criticizing something they do not believe in (which I have already addressed), but yet those criticisms are non-existent IF the Christian God is real. Am I the only one that found that odd? Isn't it strange that atheists addressing the qualities of the Christian God are wrong for criticizing something they do not believe in, yet IF Christians are right, then the direct criticisms of the Christian God's character . . . simply fade away?
You can't have your cake and eat it, too, Anonymous. IF the Christian God is real (which it has been proven to NOT be), then the crticisms of the Christian God's character MUST be taken into consideration. Why do they just dissapear conveniently? Because you want them to.
As for Randall: religion, ALL of it, is a mental disorder. It is not a search for Truth, for Understanding, for Knowledge or Peace or Enlightenment. Religion is a disease, in all of its forms. Religion requires that brain functions cease in order for it to exist. Like a cancer, religion relies on the failure of the human body's built-in defense systems so that it can grow and feed within its host. Folks around here know that I express my discontent with religion even towards the more liberal followers; for even they are trapped within the confines of a system that require them to think a certain way and make certain excuses in order for that system to thrive. Liberal followers are still followers of a meme riddled with fictitious superstition. All such mindsets are subject to the advancement of the disease and the introduction of hostile qualities in the host. So if you are referring to the supposedly lovey-dovey Christians of the world, then yes, they too rely on the scare tactics and logical fallacies of Christianity in order to spread the meme. So to answer your questions:
1. Yes, Christians use threats. Ever heard of Hell?
2. Yes, Christians use violence; psychological violence especially, though there are the rare occasions when Christians bomb abortion clinics or rape a child or beat a homosexual.
3. Yes, Christians strike early. It is a known fact that fundamentalist Christians indoctrinate children into the religion at a very early age in the hopes of causing them to maintain a connection to the mental disorder their entire lives. It is a sweet thing to know, then, that the vast majority of these children "leave the flock" at a later age.
4. Yes, Christians are religious addicts. That's what you call a person who 'lives for Christ'. Through the enforcement of the meme by other people, Christians come to rely on the meme, as I explained with the case of how Stockholm syndrome commonly develops in the Christian.
5. Yes, I am morally and intellectually superior to Christians. Any system of thought that relies on threats to keep people in line is no system worthy of trust. Any system that relies on the failure of its followers to ASK QUESTIONS, THINK FREELY, or EXAMINE is a system that ultimately results in the shutting down of one's mental faculties. Ergo, I ain't not no undummy.
6. . . . what a bigot I HAVE become? Bitch, please; you ain't know me like that.
Hi there,
ReplyDeleteSince we are talking about death, I am curious as to what you believe happens after death. Are we 'gone', as in no afterlife? Or as my brother says "dead like a racoon on the road"?
thanks.
We become worm food. The same way a raccoon becomes worm food. Samey = samey. Human = animal just as raccoon = animal. Our evolutionary plus up is our brain. Like some other animals, we can use tools. Like some other animals, we can recognize our ape-y reflection in mirror. And while some other animals might be disturbed by a death in their social group, we can contemplate on the future and on our future death. The idea of soul/afterlife is a giant security blanket: I never have to die, my goodness will be rewarded and those mean people who hurt me will be punished.
ReplyDeleteDebbie157 wrote:
ReplyDelete"Since we are talking about death, I am curious as to what you believe happens after death. Are we 'gone', as in no afterlife? Or as my brother says "dead like a racoon on the road"?
thanks"
---
Debbie157,
Well hopefully we don't become 'Road-Kill', like so many raccoons do, but the end result is of life is no different for humans than for other life forms on earth.
Someone here recently summed it up quite nicely by saying, ' It will be just as it was before you were born', a big nothing.
There is a certain irony for me, in that poster's summation of death.
When I was a young boy a few of us were shown some religious film about life and death.
I'm pretty sure this film was shown in some church I had either attended or visited, but I can no longer recall where exactly I saw it, but a part of the film left an impression upon me that stayed with me throughout my life.
The film attempted to answer a child's question of where we were before we were born.
They showed a scene with many children roaming around 'heaven', all hoping they would get picked to be sent to earth to be born and live out a human life.
They never explained why one would want to leave heaven to become a human, but for whatever reason it was something desired by these children.
I can still recall the film showing a particular child leaving heaven and then shown being a happy baby, with their earthly parents.
I have no idea who made this film, nor how any denomination would have derived the idea from the bible that we once were all in heaven before being born.
Does anyone know where this idea might have come from????
Also, I'm quite curious if anyone out there also recalls seeing such a film and perhaps knows something more about it than I can recall????
In any case Debbie, there just is no valid evidence to be had, that supports the idea that we have souls within us that live on after our bodies 'turn to dirt'.
While the idea of part of us being immortal is welcomed and sought by most, the idea itself is born from our fear of death, as well as the dreams we have, that at times seem to make us FEEL we are detached from our bodies.
ATF (who once was positive there was an afterlife, but had to admit he was totally wrong about it)