Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
I asked a Christian poster to this site if he kept the Sabbath holy or if he profaned the Sabbath by going shopping, or perhaps eating at McDonalds after church, etc.
Here’s what he said:
Mr. Marvin's blog: dmarvin811.blogspot.com
Basically, if I am reading him correctly, Mr. Marvin is telling me I am not applying the correct interpretation (Dan Marvin’s interpretation) to the Bible. It seemed clear to me that one of the Ten Commandments said to keep the Sabbath Day holy, but Mr. Marvin sees my obvious reading of the text as too simplistic.
Now, I readily admit that I don’t believe the Bible, and I think that adhering to archaic religious laws like this would be ridiculous, but regardless, is Mr. Marvin correct? Is keeping the Sabbath now passé for the Christian? And if so, I wonder why it is still included in the giant granite Ten Commandment statues all around the USA.
This is the interesting thing about Christianity. Modern Christians want to have a nice big Cracker Barrel lunch after church, and if buying and selling on the Sabbath is a no-no, then how’s a good churchman to eat?
Well, what do other “True Christians™” have to say about the matter?
From Let Us Reason Ministries:
From the Second Presbyterian Church:
From John Pipers’ Desiring God website:
From USA Today:
From TruthSeek.net:
From the Geneva Study Bible
Here’s what he said:
First and fourth commandments say the same thing. The NT doesn't mention the fourth Commandment to keep because Jesus is that Commandment. He mentions to keep the other nine but that one was replaced by the New Covenant in Christ.
You are missing out on some very important teachings that is wonderful let me explain a bit. Lets take the Sabbath in Genesis 2:2-3 "And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it."
He rested, not because he was tired but that the work was complete. Now we have a completion in Jesus and we are in His rest.
Hebrews 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
Hebrews 4:9-11 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
Jesus IS the Sabbath, the completion, not a Saturday or Sunday. We are complete in Christ, nothing more is required for salvation it ends in Christ. Not a man made building and established hierarchy.
Are you ready to repent now? Not yet? OK maybe this will help. Basic hermeneutics have some steps to understand the Bible:
Step One: Grasp the text in their town. What did the text say to the original audience?
Step Two: Measure the width of the river to cross. What are the differences between the biblical audience and us? (time, culture, language, situation, covenant.)
Step Three: Cross the principlizing bridge. What is the theological principle in this text?
Step Four: Does the New Testament change our understanding of an OT text?
Step Five: Grasp the text in our town. How should the individual Christian apply the theological principles in our lives today?
Things to take in account is The Inductive Method, Authorial Intent, and the most important a Grammatical Historical Method of Interpretation: To determine exactly what the author intended and how the original audience would have understood it.
Just to be clear you are using an eisegesis, and Reader-response method.
From my blog: "I use an Exegesis method of interpretation instead of an eisegesis method. Does this mean that eisegesis thinking is wrong, I would say yes because it is a capricious attitude. It may even be breaking the 2nd Commandment and making a god to suite yourself."
Mr. Marvin's blog: dmarvin811.blogspot.com
Basically, if I am reading him correctly, Mr. Marvin is telling me I am not applying the correct interpretation (Dan Marvin’s interpretation) to the Bible. It seemed clear to me that one of the Ten Commandments said to keep the Sabbath Day holy, but Mr. Marvin sees my obvious reading of the text as too simplistic.
Now, I readily admit that I don’t believe the Bible, and I think that adhering to archaic religious laws like this would be ridiculous, but regardless, is Mr. Marvin correct? Is keeping the Sabbath now passé for the Christian? And if so, I wonder why it is still included in the giant granite Ten Commandment statues all around the USA.
This is the interesting thing about Christianity. Modern Christians want to have a nice big Cracker Barrel lunch after church, and if buying and selling on the Sabbath is a no-no, then how’s a good churchman to eat?
Well, what do other “True Christians™” have to say about the matter?
From Let Us Reason Ministries:
“And so every time you remember the Sabbath day you are honoring the true God. That's why, if this commandment had always been kept, there would be no atheist, agnostic, idolater, or skeptic.” (prophecy seminar The Seventh day Sabbath true worship lesson 10 Leo Schreven) Really! This didn’t happen when all of Israel had kept it, even as a nation under God. While it may be true to keep the Sabbath honors God, it is not the only day or way to do so. Nor is it THE way to do so.
“He created this day in honor of himself as being the creator of all things. And you can read all through the bible God wants us to remember it.”
From the Second Presbyterian Church:
We know from the gospel accounts that Jesus kept the Sabbath day, that on the Sabbath day he went to the synagogue. The gospel accounts say that this was his custom. "As was his custom," he would go to the synagogue and there would sing God’s praise in the Psalms, hear the word read and proclaimed, just as it is done today. So both our scripture readings are about the Sabbath. The one that we now have in Deuteronomy 5 is explicitly about the Sabbath day, but the first reading, read just a moment or two ago from Matthew 11 is also, though implicitly, about the Sabbath day. That is, the word Sabbath is not mentioned, but the word "rest" is central to the text. Remember Jesus says, "Come to me all you who labor and who are heavy-laden and I will give you rest" – I will give you what the Sabbath commands and promises; rest, eternal rest, even heavenly rest . . . .
"Rest" is what the Sabbath day commandment is about, both literally and spiritually. We know that the Jewish people reflected on the fourth commandment, not just in its literal sense ("resting" on one day of the week) but they also thought about what it meant in its deepest level…
From John Pipers’ Desiring God website:
"Keep it holy," means set it aside from all other days as special. Specifically, as verse 10 says, keep it "to the Lord," or "for the Lord." In other words, the rest is not to be aimless rest, but God-centered rest. Attention is to be directed to God in a way that is more concentrated and steady than on ordinary days. Keep the day holy by keeping the focus on the holy God.
From USA Today:
For all the attention paid this past year to public displays of the Ten Commandments, you'd think people would spend as much energy trying to follow them.
When it comes to the Fourth Commandment — "Remember the Sabbath Day" — that's not the case. And pastors like me, far from being role models, are among the worst offenders. After all, we work every Sunday.
From TruthSeek.net:
The Bible is profoundly clear (Colossians 2:16) in forbidding any Christian from judging another Christian in regard to keeping the Sabbath (many Christians, however, attempt to twist this scripture into justifying their NOT keeping the Sabbath), or in meat (and I'll tell ya, as both a Sabbath keeper and a vegetarian, I have been judged harshly by "Christians" for both these Biblical concepts -- remember, not everyone who claims to be of God, is of God), or in drink (some people have given up the Sabbath, but oddly, not the eating and the drinking, another thought to ponder).
From the Geneva Study Bible
Remember the sabbath day, {g} to keep it holy.
(g) Which is by meditating the spiritual rest, by hearing God's word, and resting from worldly labours.
From John Wesley's Notes:Ex. 20:8 The fourth commandment concerns the time of worship; God is to be served and honoured daily; but one day in seven is to be particularly dedicated to his honour, and spent in his service. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy; in it thou shalt do no manner of work - It is taken for granted that the sabbath was instituted before. We read of God's blessing and sanctifying a seventh day from the beginning, Gen 2:3, so that this was not the enacting of a new law, but the reviving of an old law. 1st. They are told what is the day, they must observe, a seventh after six days labour, whether this was the seventh by computation from the first seventh, or from the day of their coming out of Egypt, or both, is not certain. A late pious Writer seems to prove, That the sabbath was changed, when Israel came out of Egypt; which change continued till our Lord rose again: But that then the Original Sabbath was restored. And he makes it highly probable, at least, That the sabbath we observe, is the seventh day from the creation. 2dly, How it must be observed; As a day of rest; they were to do no manner of work on this day, in their worldly business. As a holy day, set apart to the honour of the holy God, and to be spent in holy exercises. God, by his blessing it, had made it holy; they, by solemn blessing him, must keep it holy, and not alienate it to any other purpose than that for which the difference between it and other days was instituted. 3dly, Who must observe it? Thou and thy son and thy daughter - The wife is not mentioned, because she is supposed to be one with the husband, and present with him, and if he sanctify the sabbath, it is taken for granted she will join with him; but the rest of the family is instanced in it, children and servants must keep it according to their age and capacity. In this, as in other instances of religion, it is expected that masters of families should take care, not only to serve the Lord themselves, but that their houses also should serve him. Even the proselyted strangers must observe a difference between this day and other days, which, if it laid some restraint upon them then, yet proved a happy indication of God's gracious design, to bring the Gentiles into the church. By the sanctification of the sabbath, the Jews declared that they worshipped the God that made the world, and so distinguished themselves from all other nations, who worshipped gods which they themselves made. God has given us an example of rest after six days work; he rested the seventh day - Took a complacency in himself, and rejoiced in the work of his hand, to teach us on that day, to take a complacency in him, and to give him the glory of his works. The sabbath begun in the finishing of the work of creation; so will the everlasting sabbath in the finishing of the work of providence and redemption; and we observe the weekly sabbath in expectation of that, as well as in remembrance of the former, in both conforming ourselves to him we worship. He hath himself blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it. He hath put an honour upon it; it is holy to the Lord, and honourable; and he hath put blessings into it which he hath encouraged us to expect from him in the religious observation of that day. Let us not profane, dishonour, and level that with common time, which God's blessing hath thus dignified and distinguished.
From Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:Ex. 20:3-11 The form of the fourth commandment, Remember, shows that it was not now first given, but was known by the people before. One day in seven is to be kept holy. Six days are allotted to worldly business, but not so as to neglect the service of God, and the care of our souls. On those days we must do all our work, and leave none to be done on the sabbath day. Christ allowed works of necessity, charity, and piety; for the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, Mr 2:27; but all works of luxury, vanity, or self-indulgence in any form, are forbidden. Trading, paying wages, settling accounts, writing letters of business, worldly studies, trifling visits, journeys, or light conversation, are not keeping this day holy to the Lord. Sloth and indolence may be a carnal, but not a holy rest. The sabbath of the Lord should be a day of rest from worldly labour, and a rest in the service of God. The advantages from the due keeping of this holy day, were it only to the health and happiness of mankind, with the time it affords for taking care of the soul, show the excellency of this commandment. The day is blessed; men are blessed by it, and in it. The blessing and direction to keep holy are not limited to the seventh day, but are spoken of the sabbath day.
From the Swedenborg Chruch:It must be evident to all that disregard for the Sabbath is a great and growing evil in our community. The day comes, but not the spiritual rest that belongs to it. Secular labor that is not religious or sacred is to a great extent stopped, but with far too many people, there is no recognition of anything high and holy in its place. Too often, the thoughts are not raised above the level of common everyday life, and the Sabbath is treated as an occasion for nothing but physical relaxation. Those who have a better knowledge of what the Sabbath was designed to be should resist this increasing tendency, and do what they can to impress upon the mind the principles contained in this commandment.
From Charles Spurgeon’s catechism:51 Q How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?
A The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that
day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as
are lawful on other days,
# Le 23:3
and spending the whole time in the public and private
exercises of God's worship,
# Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14
except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and
mercy.
# Mt 12:11,12
From the Westminster Confession of Faith:VIII. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
It seems clear to me that Mr. Marvin’s interpretation regarding the Sabbath differs significantly from quite a number of respectable Christian leaders. I wonder what gives Mr. Marvin the confidence to easily dismiss this wealth of Christian wisdom, not to mention a clear command written by the hand of his personal god?
Of course my point here is not to criticize or condemn Mr. Marvin. I'm sure he's a sincere man. I just believe he's terribly deluded by his religion.
Now, in all fairness, there are plenty of Christians out there who agree wholly or in part with Mr. Marvin. However, it seems plain from the various quotes above that many do not agree with Mr. Marvin on this issue.
This kind of discussion in Christianity (Sabbath vs. no-Sabbath) is part of what helped me escape the mind-snare of the Christ cult. When I devoted myself to seeking "the truth" and tallied up the contradictory teachings on this topic as well as so many others, I had an epiphany of sorts. I realized that for there to be so many Christians in such stark disagreement over basic things like one of the Ten Commandments, that the bold promise that the Holy Ghost would lead me or any Christian into "all truth" was woefully empty. I began, after months of heart-wrenching study and prayer, to finally understand that Christianity had been mutating with the times, just like every other man made religion. In essence, so-called Biblical absolutes were merely baptized situational ethics.
Keeping the Sabbath is inconvenient. Therefore, when the Bible says “Keep the Sabbath holy,” it has in some circles been inventively reinterpreted to mean “We no longer have to keep the Sabbath holy.”
And if you disagree with either side of the coin, then your exegesis is flawed.
Isn't that nice?
What do you think?
Comments
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Who cares what man thinks, what matters is what God thinks.
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
webmaster said: Therefore, when the Bible says “Keep the Sabbath holy,” it has in some circles been inventively reinterpreted to mean “We no longer have to keep the Sabbath holy.”
Not at all my friend do not misquote me here.
The Sabbath is Jesus and we are in His rest. He is the completion, the 7th day, the final chapter of salvation.
You bet we keep the Sabbath Holy because Jesus is Holy. We are to honor and keep holy the Sabbath not because it is a day of the week but because it is Jesus Himself. "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest." (Matthew 11:29)
Let just add my other fitting points that we talked about. In the OT there were shadowy prophecies for the NT. For example baptism:
1 Pet 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Another example is the sacrificing of a lamb to cover the sins in the OT to the sacrificing the Lamb of God for forgiveness of sins in the NT. Sabbath as a day in the OT to Sabbath is the Christ in NT, another shadowy prophecy.
My favorite is The Ten Commandments are like the ten camels that carried Abraham's servant in search of a bride for his only begotten son, Isaac (Genesis 24:10-20). When the servant arrived at the city, Nahor I believe, he had his ten camels kneel down outside the city before the well at the time the woman go out to draw water. He prayed that the bride to be would be evidenced by the fact that she would have consideration for the camels. When Rebekah saw the camels, she ran to the well to get water for them.
God, the Father, sent His Spirit to search for a bride for His only begotten Son. He has chosen the Ten Commandments to carry this special message.
The Holy Spirit knows that the primary reason the bride draws water from the well of salvation is to satisfy the ten thirsting camels of a holy and just Law. If the Law didn't demand death for sin, we wouldn't need a Savior. The true convert comes to the savior simply to satisfy the demands of a holy Law.
The espoused virgin has respect for the Commandments of God. She loves God's Law because of what it is (an expression of His holy nature) and what it does (show us our need for mercy). She isn't a worker of lawlessness.
Thank you webmaster, for giving me a platform to preach the gospel to the lost here at your blog. I am honored that you gave me precious real estate on the web for this subject. I look forward to a spirited discussion on this subject.
For His glory,
Dan
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
To DM,
Let me see if I can understand this. We have a god that can create the whole universe (including over 125 billionj galaxies, similar to our own)...in just six days..with Suns capable of burning 10,000's of degrees continuous for centuries or millenniums, the same god created all the different animals and fish and humans, yet this all powerful, all knowing god has to have help and incorperate his son to help him save souls?
And the jesus salvation plan was not introduced until some 4000 years later, when this god can create a whole universe in just six days, yet this god lost control of Satan in heaven and allowed the same evil being to have rein over Earth, already having full knowledge of just what this evil being is capable of doing and still allowing this evil being to deceive all of mankind, and whole nations, because he loves us so much.
Although this god having all power to control of the whole universe and peoples very thoughts in their hearts, he could have just as easily destroyed Satan and changed everyone's hearts, since he wants us to be with him and he loves us so much.
And this same god whom regretted having made a man and a woman, because thir hearts were continualy wicked, he entrusted them (the very same wicked people whom he regretted making) he entrusted them to convey his holy plan of salvation unto man to save his soul from the very hell that this same god created in the first place?
Doesn't sound much like a very intelligent god to me, sounds more like a man made story?
Is that a serious question? If it is, by all the Xian Europeans who came to the Americas.
If not serious, it got here by the internet.
Bob G
Right, right...and you are a human, one who evidently cannot get his thoughts straight about what his alleged biblegod requires for "salvation". Based on the former..i.e.. you are a human, so then "who cares" what you have to say---totally 100% agreed. But considering the latter, this confirms it. You are no representative for any deity.
Take you, and your amateur apologetics OUT of here. Beat it.....shoo!
Still quoteing out of that book written by wicked liars I see.
And why is it that we should believe what them wicked liars wrote?
Huh?
Are you kidding?
Oh well, whatever. Ok, fine. I'll go with it. I admit it, I only quoted men. Well Dan, guess what? SO DID YOU! The Bible was written by MEN!
No god ever magically materialized and wrote your Bible. Men did it. All men, all the time.
Gotcha!
All we have is MEN to tell us what "God" thinks. Where does that leave us?
Dan: No, the Bible tells us what God thinks.
Me: Did God write it or MEN?
Dan: God wrote it through the MEN.
Me: And we know this because: the MEN wrote that too! At the end of the day, ANY claim about "God" comes from a MAN. There is no way around this until "God" comes down and engages us in direct comminication. Until then, we are confined to "what man thinks God thinks".
Religion, in fact, could be defined as "what MAN thinks God thinks" and the Bible as what "MAN said God said."
I've argued this with the christians I know more times than I care to remember (to no effect). It seems to me that this is one of the most damaging arguments against biblical infallibility, yet to bring it up in an argument causes an instant shutdown of debate. Then it promptly spirals into ad hominem.
They have no counter to it but continued circular reasoning.
I am often amazed at how some people preach the “unchanging” truth of god – only to change it when it would otherwise prove inconvenient.
The explanations of Mr. Marvin make no sense and would be shrugged off by most orthodox thinkers. Basically, he has simply “eliminated” a day from our calendar. How exactly does that affect your day-timer?
“Jesus is the rest, therefore, he is the Sabbath – which eliminates the need a Sabbath.” What a very bad misinterpretation of what is actually – even for an ex-Christian like me – a pretty good principle. What’s so wrong with taking a day off? Perhaps Mr. Marvin is still under the sway of the late 80’s and 90’s push to make the church more “business-like” and republican in its approach and hasn’t caught up to the “emergent” movement which aims to relax Jesus a bit for a more post-modern audience…
Bottom line, folks – this is just another guy who has god on his terms… This is what the church has done for years as they attempt to peddle Jesus and make an ancient, angry religion marketable… Let’s make god a little more comfortable… There is really nothing wrong with that… I think all imaginary friends should be agreeable…
Spoomonkey
And here I thought there were some rational people on this website...
And here I thought there were some rational people on this website..."
Anonymous,
If you hate the babble so much (and for the record, I hold no real love for it myself), you should realize how much fun it is to debunk it, not just with outside sources and reasoning, but by using its own insanities against it.
Besides, it's no crime against reason to argue religious semantics and theology...so long as you do just that: USE reason and rationality.
To borrow/paraphrase a cheesy quote from the movie Tombstone: "The fights commenced...get to fightin' or get away!"
"Bottom line, folks – this is just another guy who has god on his terms… This is what the church has done for years as they attempt to peddle Jesus and make an ancient, angry religion marketable… Let’s make god a little more comfortable… There is really nothing wrong with that… I think all imaginary friends should be agreeable…"
Very, very well said my friend. An "attempt to peddle Jesus and make an ancient, angry religion marketable." I will definitely keep that one for future reference. I have yet to hear a statement that better sums up our modern, popular, mega-church Christianity.
My favorite is The Ten Commandments are like the ten camels that carried Abraham's servant in search of a bride for his only begotten son, Isaac (Genesis 24:10-20). When the servant arrived at the city, Nahor I believe, he had his ten camels kneel down outside the city before the well at the time the woman go out to draw water. He prayed that the bride to be would be evidenced by the fact that she would have consideration for the camels. When Rebekah saw the camels, she ran to the well to get water for them.
God, the Father, sent His Spirit to search for a bride for His only begotten Son. He has chosen the Ten Commandments to carry this special message.
The Holy Spirit knows that the primary reason the bride draws water from the well of salvation is to satisfy the ten thirsting camels of a holy and just Law. If the Law didn't demand death for sin, we wouldn't need a Savior. The true convert comes to the savior simply to satisfy the demands of a holy Law.
The espoused virgin has respect for the Commandments of God. She loves God's Law because of what it is (an expression of His holy nature) and what it does (show us our need for mercy). She isn't a worker of lawlessness.
There are many problems with trying to make the analogy that the story represents how a person comes to Christ.
Rebekah gives the water, which allegedly signifies salvation, to the ten camels (the Ten Commandments) and to the servant (the Holy Spirit), both of whom have no need for salvation. So, Rebekah is actually the provider of salvation. Not only that, but the other damsels who drew water from the well must have received salvation without any need of a law or Holy Spirit.
The analogy is further flawed in that there is no death or penalty if Rebekah doesn't feed the camels, despite Mr. Marvin's assertation that, "The Holy Spirit knows that the primary reason the bride draws water from the well of salvation is to satisfy the ten thirsting camels of a holy and just Law. If the Law didn't demand death for sin, we wouldn't need a Savior."
Christians will often latch on to something in the Bible to try to make the Bible out to be some incredible work, when a closer examination will show that it is merely grasping at straws.
Respectully,
Franciscan Monkey
Precisely!...it always boils down to how the individual feels on any given matter. The bible is one big subjective free-for-all!
Hmm, sounds like a fun challenge. Who can find a verse to support...
stealing cable?
Huh? So we keep Jesus holy? Can't he keep himself holy? What does that even mean? It doesn't even make sense...
Maybe if I just shook my head a bit...
...nope...still doesn't make sense.
Am I like Galileo when he told the catholics that the earth is round. You are all like the catholics that just said "No, it isn't"
Prove me wrong, biblically. Show me the hermeneutics behind your reasoning as I have. Show me what verses counter what I am saying. There is a very good reason why the Bible is like Chinese to all of you and false converts. A reason for it making no sense. It's like reading something in Chinese to some of you. Give someone in the U.S. a book written in Chinese and they don't understand any of it. If you give that same book to a little 4 year old Chinese boy and he can read it with no problem. That's why we must be born again to truly understand His word for what it truly means. Once you understand that "other language", it's easier to recognize when you hear it. We must be born again into the language of the Lord to understand his book. To the unsaved it is just Chinese. Seek and you will find. Matthew 7:7: John 14:21.
Just Google "Jesus is the sabbath rest" and get a vast collection of websites that help explain this truth in various ways.
I may have handed dogs and swine the pearls here (Matthew 7:6) because it is more meat then the milk, which all of you need first. (Hebrews 5:12)
After debating with all of you for a little while now I have noticed something, Most of your counter is just gripes and complaints not evidence.
An analogy would be a debate about: Is there a president of the United States.
My position would be YES there is a President of the United States and furthermore his name is George W. Bush.
The Atheists position would be NO there is no President of the United States and to prove it let me tell you about the failed policies George W. Bush in Iraq and giving tax breaks to the rich and not the poor.
This is not an augment about the President of the United States not existing this is merely gripes, your complaints about the President of the United States but that does nothing to prove that the President doesn't exist, and the same is true for Christianity.
To sit and argue about the Bible and how it's full of mistakes or that there are different interpretations or translations or God allows certain evils to happen or that Christians are bad people by there actions, etc. That is not an argument to prove that God does not exist or that Jesus is required for salvation. These are complaints and gripes.
It is very understandable that most of you don't understand God and his message of salvation. I just don't know how much more I can personally do to help any of you. Most of you are lost in delusion.Only God has the power to soften your hearts at this point.
exchhc: "If they want to go to lunch or work or whatever on 'the sabbath,' to soothe their consciences, they will seek out verses that condone this. You mean like ex-Christians try to justify themselves by fetal attempts to disprove a God by looking for mistakes or contradictions in the Bible, Sniff sniff, smells like hypocrisy
Franciscan Monkey "Rebekah gives the water, which allegedly signifies salvation, to the ten camels (the Ten Commandments) and to the servant (the Holy Spirit), both of whom have no need for salvation."
I won't laugh because it's sad that you are not saved and you got it wrong, very wrong. You are being difficult or it is just Chinese to you. Do I really need to explain it another way?
Franciscan Monkey "The analogy is further flawed in that there is no death or penalty if Rebekah doesn't feed the camels"
Sure there is if she didn't honor the ten camels (Ten Commandments) she wouldn't be chosen as a bride. (salvation) Bride of Christ =body of the Christ head
Anon "Who cares what the wholly babble says or doesn't say upon any particular subject?" You will, on that day of Judgment
Spoomonkey "Bottom line, folks – this is just another guy who has god on his terms… This is what the church has done for years as they attempt to peddle Jesus and make an ancient, angry religion marketable"
Back up your claim show me Biblically that I am wrong. The modern churches and denominations have deluded the gospel to just include the goodness of Jesus and omits the Law and the wrath to come to the unsaved and false converts (stony ground hearer). The believe only crowds have it wrong. Just because mass amounts of people believe something doesn't make it true and that is webmaster and others base this blog entry on. Matthew 7:14 " Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Anon "So why are you trying to teach us about the sabbath?" You know anon, I just don't know why I tried to feed you all meat instead of just milk. I am to preach the gospel and that is what I have done. Philippians 1:15-18 "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
Monk "It seems to me that this is one of the most damaging arguments against biblical infallibility" Really how so?
fjell: Religion, in fact, could be defined as "what MAN thinks God thinks" and the Bible as what "MAN said God said."
webmaster: "I admit it, I only quoted men. Well Dan, guess what? SO DID YOU! The Bible was written by MEN!"
stronger now: "And why is it that we should believe what them wicked liars wrote?"
The Bible was written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D. These men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21). They wrote not in words of human wisdom but in words taught by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13). Personally I would say that it was written by God and penned by man.
boomSLANG: "You are no representative for any deity." Nor do I claim to be. I am just a dude, I am guilty of breaking God's Law and deserve eternal punishment. Jesus has saved me and I do His will. I am so grateful for His grace in saving a wretch like me. Insert Amazing Grace song here.
wilbur: "Although this god having all power to control of the whole universe and peoples very thoughts in their hearts, he could have just as easily destroyed Satan and changed everyone's hearts, since he wants us to be with him and he loves us so much."
A possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will. (carm.org)
Hannah: "Who can find a verse to support...stealing cable?" That would be the 8th Commandment
Jamie: "So we keep Jesus holy? Can't he keep himself holy? What does that even mean? It doesn't even make sense..."
The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. He is our rest. We are not under obligation, by Law, to keep it and this goes for the Sabbath as well. It is not a requirement that we keep the Sabbath. If it were, then we would still be under the Law. But, we are not. Maybe this will help: Jesus is the Sabbath
FJELL SAID:
"There is no way around this until "God" comes down and engages us in direct communications. Until then, we are confined to "what man thinks God thinks".
Amen to what Fjell said. Marvin Unless the God that you believe in comes down and personally reveals himself to me, there is nothing you can or will be able to say that will get me to listen to people like you.
It doesn't matter to people like myself what the "Bible" says. It is nothing more than a book of lies.
Quoting scripture is a waste of time. It means nothing to me. Do you honestly think that if you quote enough scripture that people like me will all of a sudden be magically converted? You are nothing but a typical "Bible Beating Fool".
You babble so much "bible bullshit" that your breath stinks. If I was god I would be laughing my ass off at fools like yourself who continue to quote meaningless garbage from your stupid lame book. You are indeed a weak minded fool who does not know how to think for himself.
It's a damn shame that there are still people like you who are living today in this modern world of science that still believe a book that was written thousands of years ago by a bunch of Towel Headed Sheep Herders who thought that their god was speaking to them, when it was actually their very own thoughts of God.
Poltergoost 3:16 SAYS:
THE BIBLE IS NOTHING MORE THAN MAN'S OPINIONS OF WHO AND WHAT GOD IS SUPPOSED TO BE. IT IS MAN'S FAILED ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN THE UNKOWN AND MAN'S WAY OF DEALING WITH REALITY.
I tell you what Dan, prove to me outside of the bible that it is the authentic word of God. Produce some solid evidence to prove your point.
I challenge you "Dan" to prove to me without a shadow of doubt that the bible is the "100 percent authentic word of God". Prove it Dan! You can't prove it can you Dan? I knew that you couldn't.
I'm sure you will make an excuse about why you can't. Or you will claim that you don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else.
Which is the typical "Chicken shit excuse" cop out that christians use.
You are nothing more than a "Spiritual Con-Artist" and the christian god you believe in is nothing more than a "Bald Faced Liar" who does not exist.
Poltergoost
"My position would be YES there is a President of the United States and furthermore his name is George W. Bush.
The Atheists position would be NO there is no President of the United States and to prove it let me tell you about the failed policies George W. Bush in Iraq and giving tax breaks to the rich and not the poor.
This is not an augment about the President of the United States not existing this is merely gripes, your complaints about the President of the United States but that does nothing to prove that the President doesn't exist, and the same is true for Christianity"
Dan, are you really that stupid?
First of all, we can see "George W. Bush" with our own eyes. There is solid evidence that we can see him. Are you that big of a dumb ass?
DAN SAID:
"Back up your claim show me Biblically that I am wrong."
I don't have to biblically prove shit to you. The bible doesn't mean shit to people like me. Are you too stupid to understand that?
Unlike some weak minded fool like yourself we rely on "REALITY" to prove our point. Reality proves that your "Bible God" is nothing more than pure BULLSHIT.
Poltergoost.
Here's something for you to chew on for awhile.
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
The above link that I have sent you also has Biblical Scripture References attached to it.
I am just a dude, I am guilty of breaking God's Law and deserve eternal punishment. Jesus has saved me and I do His will. I am so grateful for His grace in saving a wretch like me. Insert Amazing Grace song here."
Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of yourself. You sound like a typical "Christian Loser" who goes around talking about what a loser they are without their spiritual crutch. Sorry that you are not able to deal and cope with life outside of your worthless god.
DAN SAID:
"The Bible was written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D. These men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21). They wrote not in words of human wisdom but in words taught by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13). Personally I would say that it was written by God and penned by man"
You actually believe that rubbish? Ok, Dan once again prove it. Did you live back during that time period? Are you really that naive?
DAN SAID:
"I won't laugh because it's sad that you are not saved and you got it wrong, very wrong."
Wait a minute Dan, are you passing judgement on "Fransican Monkey?" What does the bible say about "Do Not Judge"? You have just exposed yourself for the hypocritical bible beater judgmental asshole that you are.
DAN'S SO CALLED GOD SAID:
"Seek and you will find. Matthew 7:7"
Already tried that Dan. I found nothing. Your god failed to reveal himself which proves that he is a liar. Or the people who wrote the bible are a bunch of liars.
DAN'S SO CALLED GOD SAID:
Matthew 7:14 " Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Geez Dan, your god who is supposed to care so much about people doesn't seem to want to make things very easy for the human race according to Matthew 7:14. He wants to make it hard for people to find the narrow gate according to him. Typical mind games if you ask me.
DAN SAID:
Insert Amazing Grace song here."
Ok Dan, here it goes:
AMAZING DISGRACE THAT GOD REALLY IS.
WHO LIED TO PEOPLE LIKE ME.
I ONCE WAS LOST BUT NOW I HAVE FOUND MY WAY BACK TO REALITY.
"The true version of Amazing Grace".
Piss off Dan. You cannot win this debate.
Poltergoost
"After debating with all of you for a little while now I have noticed something, Most of your counter is just gripes and complaints not evidence."
And most of your input Dan, has been nothing but a bunch of worthless "Bible Quoting" and chatter which we have heard over and over again.
So far you have not produced any evidence of your bible being authentic.
"I just don't know how much more I can personally do to help any of you."
Well Dan old boy, I see that you at least admitted that you are defeated.
What's the matter Dan? Did your god fail to work through you to reveal himself? Seems like he failed also.
DAN SAID: Most of you are lost in delusion.
Uh, that would be you who is lost in delusion Dan.
DAN SAID:
"Only God has the power to soften your hearts at this point."
He sure as hell isn't doing a very good job at it.
It also seems that your god is not able to make himself more clear and understandable to us lowly humans here on earth. He seems to have a communication problem.
He can't seem to part the red sea or speak through burning bushes anymore either.
Your god must be losing his power Dan.
Thanks for at least admitting that you are defeated in this debate.
Sorry that your god did not empower you to convince us of the so called biblical truth. Maybe this will teach you a lesson about the lie that you believe in.
The evidence is that god did not show up to convince us of your argument.
Poltergoost
Dan, you are just like many of us used to be. I hope you can break free from the lies and brainwashing and find the truth. The truth will set you free man.
Dan offers nothing but the same repetitive worn out biblical propaganda that every other bible beating christian tries to cram down our throats. It never works, and it never will.
Christians cannot come up with solid evidence outside of the book of ancient fairy tales known as the "Bible" to back up their claim. So when they can't produce real evidence outside of their little fantasy world, they bail out of a debate. People like Dan act like none of us have ever heard of the gospel of Christ.
Like many other christians who post on here, and who try to convert us by sharing biblical scripture, Dan is one of many who fail to realize that we were at one time exactly like him.
He fails to realize that we are not like someone who has never been exposed to or been involved in the christian church. Many of us are former Christians, and that's why people like myself we see Dan for the stupid fool that he is.
It angers me most of all because it is a constant reminder of how I was deceived like Dan has been, and how I wasted many precious years of my life trying to serve and please Bible God. My years serving the myth known as christ were years that I wasted. Those were years that I should've been out pursuing my dreams. Those years produced no productive fruit what so ever.
However, I can say that the thing that does give former christians like myself is an advantage over people like Dan. That advantage is the fact that we know most biblical scripture, and we know how to counter act the typical christian and their "Biblical Manipulation" tactics.
Having biblical knowledge can be an excellent asset for a nonbeliever. Having biblical knowledge and being at one time a member of the "Christian Cult" combined with modern day reality is makes us a powerful weapon against the flawed reasoning of christianity.
Poltergoost
Wait a minute, I guess you don't find any use for Halloween since it is a demonic pagan holiday.
And Santa Claus is a the Anti-Christ.
Right Dan?
Damn, Dan. Do you really see yourself as even slightly comparable to Galileo. That hints at considerable arrogance, Dan.
Oh, and BTW, Calvin and Luther also condemned anyone who taught against the Geocentric teaching of the Bible. After all, Joshua told the Sun to stand still; he didn't tell the Earth to stop revolving. Therefore, scripturally, the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Dan said, "Prove me wrong, biblically. Show me the hermeneutics behind your reasoning as I have."
You are the one who doesn't understand hermeneutics, Dan. You quoted II Peter to prove the Bible is true. There is some difficulty in your approach. The anonymous writer of II Peter was praising the Old Testament, not the New Testament. The New Testament didn't exist until a bunch of men in the 4th Century got together at the behest of the Roman Emperor to slop something together. Those men voted on which writings to use and called it the Bible. Men, Dan. Those guys were men.
There is no clear evidence that the Old Testament was compiled over 1,600 years. It is quite likely that those scrolls were all crafted during the Babylonian dispersion. And as you may have noticed, the Protestants threw out several of the Old Testament books, after a vote.
Quoting any book to prove the "truth" of said book is circular reasoning. More so, having a shelf of 40 books, then pulling one at random, then quoting from that one, and then using that quote to posit that all 40 on the shelf are true, is a poor train of logic.
Chinese is not hard to the person born and raised in China. In fact, to the average Chinese, English is quite difficult. You were born and raised in a Christian culture. I am assuming that you have been suckled on Christian blather since you could focus your eyes. You are programmed by your religion, and you no doubt are continuing to self -program on your religion and your particular sliver of the Christ cult. Had you been born in Iran, you would still be the same type of person, but it would likely be some branch of Islam that you'd be promoting.
The collected, smashed together books that comprise what we call the Bible were all written by men. You can claim that they are specially inspired, but the Mormons have their nonsensical tale of inspiration and the Islamics have their lunatic apologetics of inspiration, and all have their zealous supporters. The same casual way you dismiss the irrational blatherings of those "holy books" is the same way I dismiss your irrational blatherings.
I posted the quotes above to illustrate that extremely educated Christian leaders differ widely over what to do about the Sabbath. Granted, your interpretation -- no doubt ingrained into you at church -- is one of many accepted interpretations on the books. However, no Christian can dogmatically assert that he or she has the one true interpretation without saying all the others who have come before are flawed. If all those men could be flawed, then so could you. Your superior attitude toward the rest of your historic brothers in Christ seems to me to be the supreme height of arrogance. "They are only men..." Yes, they are only men who are using or have used the Christian Bible to prove their position. Somehow you appear unaware that you are only a man as well. Since you are a man, your interpretation which contradicts these men of old (and some today) is either wrong, or (could this be it?) only Dan and his denominational affiliates hold the real truth.
Dan, I want to thank you for posting on this site. You are a prime example of how religion poisons everything.
When I first started this site, I had only just left Christianity. I felt compassion for my deluded former brothers and sisters. The more of these discussions I have, the less I feel compassion and the more I feel pity. I may indeed be nothing but swine to you, Dan, but in all honesty, you are beginning give me a headache, much like listening non-stop to a squawking parrot or a braying ass.
I’m in a restaurant on the Sabbath and the busboy’s name tag clearly says “Jesus”.
Not Ed or Joe, it says “Jesus”. Why would the creator of the universe have Jesus working on the Sabbath if it wasn’t acceptable to him?
Now here’s where it get’s a little strange so I need a Bible scholar’s help.
The manager keeps calling him Zeus which is a Greek god. I understand the New Testament was written in common Greek so I listen carefully.
“Hey Zeus, we need 2 extra chairs on table 3” “Hey Zeus, can you please get another set of silverware over to that table.”
So not being a student of divinity I couldn’t understand why Jesus would happily respond when the manager kept saying “Hey Zeus,…”. I never fully understood the Trinity and I sure don’t understand how it relates to Greek mythology so maybe he is God and Jesus at the same time and Zeus is just another word for God in Greek. I dunno.
But the food and the service was excellent. So I know Jesus loves us.
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/10/misquoting-jesus-by-bart-ehrman.html
It shows the sun going down, along with the night sky, and a morning sunrise.
The purpose of course of the cartoon was to prove a point that god did exist and that was god's way of showing us a sign.
I find silly little cartoons like that to be worthless. They give no credibility to the christian faith what so ever.
If god is real, and he wants to truly show himself, he should come in physical male form like he supposedly did thousands of years ago so the people of modern day earth here in the 21st century can see him, instead of hiding behind the clouds, sun, and the moon.
The weather may be controlled by a supreme higher intelligence who may have very well created it all, however the myth of a Christian God who is supposedly our best friend who directs our paths, and who is personally involved in our lives, such as finances, job hunting, romance, and other daily activities is pure Bullshit.
I have a mind of my own, and god did not give me my own decision making ability for nothing.
I have no need to rely on an invisible god for guidance.
"Franciscan Monkey 'Rebekah gives the water, which allegedly signifies salvation, to the ten camels (the Ten Commandments) and to the servant (the Holy Spirit), both of whom have no need for salvation.'
I won't laugh because it's sad that you are not saved and you got it wrong, very wrong. You are being difficult or it is just Chinese to you. Do I really need to explain it another way?"
Yes, you better explain it another way, since you have yet to show how the story is analogous to salvation through Christ. All that you have shown is that you can twist a story to make it look like a prophecy or to make a point. That's okay, though, because you are in good company, Biblically speaking, as the NT writers often did the exact same thing (for example, Matthew 2:15, Romans 9:33, Romans 10:8).
Dan continued:
"Franciscan Monkey 'The analogy is further flawed in that there is no death or penalty if Rebekah doesn't feed the camels'
Sure there is if she didn't honor the ten camels (Ten Commandments) she wouldn't be chosen as a bride. (salvation) Bride of Christ =body of the Christ head"
Not being chosen as Isaac's bride does not mean Rebekah is escaping death or some other penalty. Supposedly, being chosen as Christ's bride saves people from hell.
And what of all those other damsels drawing from the same "well of salvation," as you put it? They obviously did not become a bride of Isaac/Christ and had nothing to do with the ten camels/Ten Commandments. Are you suggesting that there are multiple ways of obtaining salvation, that neither Christ nor the Law are necessary ingredients?
It appears that you need to tweak your analogy a little.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
You've also been reading the wrong book. The "Koran" is my only true and real word.
Just thought you should know that Dan.
Remember Dan, the rules are that you cannot use scripture in order to provide that evidence.
You have to come up with solid visible evidence (outside of the bible) in order to prove your point about bible god really existing and the fact that god wrote the bible. You cannot use the bible to provide that evidence. Using the bible does not count since the bible is not "Real Evidence".
Just a reminder Dan. I look forward to you trying to prove your point.
However, if you chicken out and decide not to come back and post, I'll understand since you will not be able to come up with that evidence.
Poltergoost
Since you seem to be like a broken record of the atheistic movement / atheistic dogma. I will just refer you to a prior discussion where I actually did answer most of the question that you are posing here.
You can find my responses at How do we know that Christians are delusional?
webmaster "I am assuming that you have been suckled on Christian blather since you could focus your eyes."
No actually I was raised in a very atheistic home. I was taught that evolution and big bang was fact and i believed it all without question. At 23 I read the Bible for the first time cover to cover and became a Christian.
trouble that was funny but may get you in 'trouble'
Allah: "You've also been reading the wrong book. The "Koran" is my only true and real word. " Here I thought you would spell it the more accurate way, القرآن al-qur'ān or Qur'an since it is your book, but what do I know.
Happy Halloween all
The catholic church had no problems with the earth being round (it was common knowledge even during the middle ages). What they didn't like about Galileos ideas was his heliocentric worldview.
So evolution is not a fact? Get a grip. I spent my youth passionately defending intelligent design - scouring every book I could find for decent arguments. But even when I desperately wanted to believe in that crap, I saw that the arguments for ID were pathetic.
"Who cares what man thinks, what matters is what God thinks"
Yeah. So, somehow, you magically know God agrees with your interpretation and just didn't care to enlighten a whole lot of other true christians.
And the Koran/Qur'an comment is just too much! Why do YOU talk of "God", when you know his true name is JHWH??? You silly arrogant bugger!
"There is no such thing as a former Christian"
There are other denominations that would disagree with you Dan. There are other churches such as "The Church of God", and other branches of your faith who do not believe in the "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED THEORY". Not even your own fellow christians agree with you.
DAN MARVIN SAID:
"I would call you false converts or to be biblical, stony ground hearer."
What a judgmental attitude you have. You don't know anything about any of us Dan. You have no idea the crap that several of us had to go through in our christian experience. So therefore you are not qualified to pass judgement on any of us. Of course you cherry pick verses don't you Dan? You think it is ok to judge others don't you Dan?
DAN MARVIN SAID:
"Since you seem to be like a broken record of the atheistic movement / atheistic dogma. I will just refer you to a prior discussion where I actually did answer most of the question that you are posing here"
The only one who is like a broken record is idiots like you. You repeat the same old boring biblical bullshit. Until God shows up and in this modern day world, I will not listen to another christian fool like yourself.
FYI Dan, you have done nothing that benefits anyone on here. All you have done is showed everyone what a arrogant, Holier Than Thou, Son of a bitch that you really are Dan. You give no credibility to your god or your faith. You have failed to do so.
You avoid the fact that you cannot provide a realistic answer to prove that your beliefs are real.
You are nothing but a worthless piece of fucking shit Dan. I spit in the face of people like you. It is sons of bitches like yourself that I hold responsible for the lies that are spread to others, that give them false hopes that your god fails to deliver on, and these hopes I speak of are promised in your bible.
All I can say is praise the ACLU and other non-christian organizations.
I have no interest in what some little christian piss ant like you has to say. Go fuck your mother and sister Dan, and suck Jesus' dick while you are at it. I'm sure you would suck Jesus' dick if he asked you to, because you are already a dick sucker for Christ.
Poltergoost
"Of course, again having read your blog, I found out you are also a disciple of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron."
Well that explains that. Ray Comfort is one of the most arrogant, self-righteous sons of bitches that ever walked the face of this earth.
No wonder this Dan Marvin is such a fucking asshole.
I read Dan's so called answers from the other post, and I find nothing but the same old bullshit that he keeps posting.
I tell you what, I hope Dan gets put down in the pit by god, to find no comfort from him. I'd like to see that son of a bitch go through what I have been through. He would truly find out just how unfair his so called god is.
I do not apologize for calling Dan names, because he asked for it. He has opened himself up for personal attacks, by coming on here sticking his fucking nose in everyone's business just like a lot of these other nosey christian assholes do.
People like Dan cannot accept that other's like myself have rejected his belief system. He cannot accept nor can he respect that others choose to live a different lifestyle from the one that he chooses. How I live my life, and how I choose to believe is none of Dan's goddamn business, so if people like Dan want to stick their noses in my business, and tell me how to live, then they will get their asses put in their place on here.
Dan and christians like him deserve to be personally attacked, and persecuted. They bring this bullshit on themselves when they refuse to respect the beliefs of other people.
Get ready Dan, because the days of the christian faith are numbered.
Poltergoost
God will have to come to me personally and reveal himself to me. Jesus says that he would reveal himself to me and comfort me through his holy spirit which never happened. A bald faced lie out of the bible.
I no longer listen to what christian idiots like Dan "The Dumbass" Marvin has to say. All they do is quote meaningless scripture that produces no results.
Christians are full of nothing but talk, and all they know how to do is quote scripture and false promises that they find in the bullshit bible. I wipe my ass with that book.
Talk is cheap and christians have a lot of it.
End of conversation Dan, now go finish giving Jesus his blow job.
Poltergoost
You call us false converts, that we can't have been true Christians since we have fallen away. But check out Hebrews 6:4-6.
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of he word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are curcifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public discrace."
So from this verse, it is obvious that is is possible to be a true christian and then to fall away. For who else but a true christian can share in the Holy Spirit, be enlightened, etc.?
So you may call us false converts, but your bible does not seem to agree with you. It not only clearly says a true convert can fall away, but says that they in fact do.
Lastly, it says we are not welcome back and it is "impossible" for us to come back. So in other words, and with all due respect, leave us the fuck alone.
Lance
By the way, I feel sorry for your atheist parents. It must be rough to watch their child wad up all his logic and reason and toss it in the dust bin.
Good luck, and I hope you make it out someday. In the mean time, try not to be such an arrogant asshole.
Peace.
- Lance
I am calling for all of us non believers to join together to and stand against this son of a bitch.
You're looping like a broken record, and you're a complete wack job. You've revealed once again who you really are. The "hot iron" line was the give away. So, Marc, goodbye.
Here's Marc's America: AMERIKA!
Also thanks to Dan for reminding several of us of why people like you have driven people like me away from your faith. Your bible quoting has reminded me how much I hate your faith. It's people like me who have been hurt by people like you. Your God did nothing to prevent it either. He is responsible for allowing people like you to even exist.
Dan reminds me of the same people who beat me over the head with their bible on a constant basis. I have grown to hate people like Dan.
Dan accomplishes nothing by his constant bible beating. People like Dan are very dangerous, and I look forward to the day where people like him will no longer be allowed to harass others who are brave enough to walk away from the christian faith, and those who are not afraid to take a stand against people like Dan who do nothing but hurt others with their cult and it's ancient beliefs.
Thanks once again to Dan for reminding me and several others on here why we no longer want anything to do with christianity.
Your attempts to win us back have failed Dan.
Now go pray (Talk to yourself) to your god about how you failed and how you failed to win others back to christ.
You are not a fisher of men Dan. You repel them instead. You are a disgusting little cockroach who hides behind his computer from others.
If Dan is still reading this, he is a jerk, and I plan to be a very strong advocate against the christian faith eventually.
Dan has only started a war with people like myself, and I promise you that the days of christians harassing others in this country is going to end.
God is dead, get over it, and find something else to do with your life besides sitting on your sorry pathetic butt harassing others 24/7 on the internet. Get a job Dan.
Dan knows he can't win, and he knows that he has lost the debate, so when a typical bible beater like Dan realizes that, he quotes scripture out of frustration, because nobody will listen to him.
So when the christian realizes he can't get anyone to listen to him, he starts quoting scripture only to irritate others.
Therefore he takes away all credibility from his testimony, and his witness by doing so. He has accomplished nothing.
The only thing he has done is piss others off. I myself am not a christian, however I know for a fact that there are other christians who would not agree with Dan's approach. I know christians who would probably give Dan a very hard and stern rebuke for his own ignorance.
Once again Dan, get a job.
You never answered why you put your trust in them wicked liars.
I told you to not use what they wrote.
You'd have done better to stop right where you were and accept your limitations.
Now you just look like a fool.
Poor, deluded, arrogant, Dan. :(
Bye Now! :)
"Monk "It seems to me that this is one of the most damaging arguments against biblical infallibility" Really how so?"
Simple. Like I said in the last line of that post, the only thing you have to counter it is more circular reasoning. As you said later on:
"The Bible was written by about 40 men in about 1600 years dating from 1500 B.C. to about 100 A.D. These men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21). They wrote not in words of human wisdom but in words taught by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13). Personally I would say that it was written by God and penned by man."
This is classical circular reasoning and therefore inadmissible in an argument. You are saying that the bible is divinely inspired because the MEN who wrote it also threw in a verse--for good measure--that SAID it was all divinely inspired. When you are trying to prove the veracity of a source you simply cannot say (as you have) that your source is true and accurate because the source itself says it's true and accurate. You have no verifiable, legitimate proof of the bible's divine inspiration outside the bible itself. This is circular reasoning. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
It just amazes me, the compartmentalizing of many christians. You would preach on and on about the weaknesses and fallibility of man, yet you fail to consider the flaws of the men who wrote the bible. Divine inspiration is ridiculous. Why would god be hiding? If he wanted to write a book and make sure there were no errors or mistakes, why dictate it to man at all? Why not write it himself like he allegedly did the 10 commandments (that no one has ever SEEN, by the way)? That's right. Now, I remember. It took him 40 days to write 10 sentences. It would have taken him far, far too long to have written a work as long as the bible. Let those hairless apes of his (i.e. man) do the dirty work. Who cares if they screw it up? Right?
But let's get back to my original question to you: whether or not you, Dan, still attends weekly church services. I know why you didn't answer this, Dan. You didn't answer because you KNOW that you've backed yourself and your theology into a corner and that if you say "yes" then I will say "why? according to you, there is no need to attend church since 'Jesus is the sabath.'" By the same turn, if you choose to say "no, I don't attend services," then you're argument is condemned by the very book you love so much (see "NOT forsaking the assembly," Hebrews 10:25).
Your theology will never conquer reason.
I wrote my response to Dan without reading the other responses to him. I missed this until afterwards. You beat me to it! No plagiarizing intended. Sorry.
"Quoting any book to prove the "truth" of said book is circular reasoning. More so, having a shelf of 40 books, then pulling one at random, then quoting from that one, and then using that quote to posit that all 40 on the shelf are true, is a poor train of logic."
Here’s how you shoot yourself in the foot with your weird, convoluted, arrogant
“I made-up this shit all by myself”crap:
“webmaster "I am assuming that you have been suckled on Christian blather since you could focus your eyes."
”No actually I was raised in a very atheistic home. I was taught that evolution and big bang was fact and i believed it all without question. At 23 I read the Bible for the first time cover to cover and became a Christian.”
Well “reeeaaahahalllly”
“There is a very good reason why the Bible is like Chinese to all of you”
That's why we must be born again to truly understand His word for what it truly means. Once you understand that "other language",
We must be born again into the language of the Lord to understand his book. To the unsaved it is just Chinese.
Well then fucktard, how did you, as a then atheist, get to understand “that other language”, when by your own admission “the Bible is like Chinese” and that’s why we don’t get it.
HUH??????
You’re so full of shit and hot air, the mind just boggles.
“Am I like Galileo”
The only way you could possibly even come close to Galileo, is by being the zonky-nut he forgot to wipe away from his anus.
“fetal” attempts. What the fuck is a “fetal attempt,” pray tell arsehole!!
“Sniff sniff, smells like hypocrisy”
Well “sniff sniff” right back atcha, smells like something Galileo left in the toilet.
It would make sense that he would use the name, "Computer" since he seems to have nothing else better to do with his time than to set around quoting scripture on his computer, and irritating others.
I would bet Dan has never kissed a girl before. He probably still lives with his mom, and when he's not preaching his good news about christ, he spends the rest of his time surfing the net viewing pornography.
And how do you know that they were "moved by the holy spirit"? Is it because THEY wrote about the holy spirit?
So, because they themselves said that they were "moved" by the holy spirit, the holy spirit exists?
Do you even see the problem?
It's as if I said because I am "moved" by purple pigs flying thru uranus, It makes everything I write objectively real and true.
Tell me, how does the number of people(40) who wrote things make all the things they wrote true?
How does the timeframe that those men wrote it MAKE what they wrote about true?
"(1 Cor. 2:13)"
How does using a passage of a book that was WRITTEN by a wicked liar make it, and what other wicked liars wrote, true?
"Personally I would say that it was written by God and penned by man"
"Personally"?
As in: It is Dan's personal opinion?
Is that your personal opinion that YOU said we shouldn't listen to?
"Who cares what man thinks, what matters is what God thinks."
Or, did you mean to say that the writings of wicked liars is what you WANT to believe, and so you do?
So is your OPINION supposed to sway us to believe what those wicked liars wrote?
This shows how silly you have become Dan. You contradict yourself in what you say AND believe.
I didn't write this expecting any response from you, reasoned or otherwise. I wrote it so that someone else might see the folly in attemting to use the bible as evidence for believing what the bible says.
And because you called me "shallow" and "spoiled".
You should have thought harder.
You should grow up little man, and think BEFORE you speak.
Even though he has no shred of evidence outside of the bible, I am convinced that "Dan Marvin" was right, because "Dan Marvin" said so, and "Dan Marvin" quoted from the bible, so it must be true.
Anything that "Dan Marvin" claims is the official word from the mouth of Almighty God himself. "Dan Marvin" was inspired by God.
Dan Marvin is the official spokesperson for God in case any of you have not figured it out.
*rolls eyes*
Yes, it is true. Jesus felt the need to update us, so he has sent forth a prophet who shall be called, "Dan Marvin".
The latest book that has been added to the bible is the book of "Dan Marvin". It outweighs anything else that has been published in the bible and brother "Dan Marvin" has cleared up all confusion that there has been over the past 2,000 years about any type of contradictions the bible may have.
Here is the very first words of the new book that has been added to the bible.
DAN MARVIN 1:1-3 "Let no man be fooled, I have come so that they may understand my own personal interpretation of the bible better. 2: I am "Dan Marvin", and I have been sent by the Christ, and it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, because I say it is true, so it has to be true. 3: I do not have to produce evidence beyond that because Christ sent me, and you need to have faith."
The Dan demonstrated the true character of modern conservative Christianity: arrogant, judgmental ignorant, and delusional. These people (and I was one of them) constantly complain about how they are persecuted (including such things as the removal of a ten commandments statue from a state courthouse...yeah, that's persecution to them). The fact that they are a majority religion here in the US, and they have dominated the Federal and State governments for quite some time, pretty much demolishes any notion of "Christian persecution".
So any perceived slight against them is considered persecution of them. After all, they are told by the bible that they will be persecuted, so it has to be happening. Right?
The reason commenters here gang up on The Dan's that come here with their little evangelizing agenda is not because The Dan's are being persecuted for their faith. No, it's because people usually intensely dislike people who are liars and assholes. And that is what Evangelical Christianity turns you into.
People like Dan who feel the need to go around quoting scripture and disrespecting other people's beliefs because they do not line up with his beliefs do it mainly because they are miserable with their own lives. Dan apparently doesn't have anything better to do with his time then sit on the internet judging others and cramming scripture down their throats. The man apparently has no productive life at all.
Dan is someone who uses his christian beliefs as a way to belittle others so he will feel more superior about himself.
He is nothing more than a little cockroach that contributes nothing to society. He is one who lives in the dark ages of the past. People like Dan are a threat to progress, and the acceptance of others who choose to be different outside of his narrow minded thinking.
I detest people like Dan, and want nothing to do with them. Reading anything he has to say makes me want to literally vomit. He sickens me.
May this country one day become truly equal for all people from different walks of life. America is for all people, not just for the christians only.
I'm sure after the 2008 election next year, they will feel persecuted even more.
I have a feeling that the christians are not going to like how next year's presidential election turns out.
I can hear them whine and cry now.
When you can discuss reality as a rational human being, rather than an irrational religious fanatic, come on back.
Until then, you're no longer welcome.
Bye!
From glen to glen, and down the mountain side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide."
Kinda fitting don't ya think!?!
If so, I'm sure he considers being banned a form of persecution for Christ.
However he was persecuting others on here.
The day of sabbath is no longer meaningful to christians as Paul said. If one stress too much about sabbath he may misunderstand why Jesus delieverately violated the sabbath.
Jesus taught us the inalienalbly important one which is the freedom of believers.
Believers are not bound by law but by love. So many things have been changed. ha ha ha
I have a long hard time to accept christianity. But anyway, from now on I would like to stand for the christianity.
Hopefully we may have a good discussion.
thanks.
Sorry to hear that Trumpeter.
Therefore, perhaps "Keeping-The-Sabbath",...
In an "ASS-Holier-Than-Thou" way just-might be the more satisfying way to go-?
It most-certainly 'seems-like' that's the way that most (so-called) "christians",... choose-to-do-?
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