Dear Believer
by Dan Barker Dear Believer, — You asked me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful. You expect me to believe Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a ghost? Do you believe all the crazy tales of ancient religions? Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Seutonius said Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died; and Buddha was supposedly born speaking. You don’t believe all that, do you? Why do you expect me to swallow the fables of Christianity? I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man’s rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, ...
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However, regardless of how or why he has come to this point, he is a snotty little dickhead with a tiny brain and a big mouth. Although I think we should ignore him, it is damn near impossible to do with all the crap that spews from his fingertips. Can't we just have him killed?
However, regardless of how or why he has come to this point, he is a snotty little dickhead with a tiny brain and a big mouth. Although I think we should ignore him, it is damn near impossible to do with all the crap that spews from his fingertips. Can't we just have him killed?
The order of the answers changes - thus eliminating a source of a large bias in the results.
GOOD THINKING, who-ever ou are...
When has engaging these type of people ever had a positive result?
persecuted. Also, considering some of the posts I've seen over the past few days...well, they're an
excellent example of Christians at
their most obsessive and hysterical.
Also, many of the people who post
rebuttals to the "saved" provide
solid answers to Christian delusions and beliefs, and may help
others who are trying to break
away from organized religion.
- James
Aside from that, ignoring trolls can be difficult (for me, at least) without programmatic aids to that end. On Usenet, trolls went in the killfile. On IRC, they go in my /ignore list. On web forums.... what do I do? I see them. I can show some restraint and ignore them (not everyone can, and I'm not 100% successful), but at the least I've been distracted or annoyed, and at worst, I'm seriously peeved, and having trouble "letting them say that unchallenged".
I'm never happy advocating deletion; but better options are not always available.
I know what it is like to be a christian and have your mind start to slip. Christianity was what caused my mind to slip and before I went totally batshit crazy I dropped the god belief.(it was a close one)
Perhaps he's on the edge now and if we continue to amplify the cognitive dissonance(sp?) he'll either de-convert or be chased down by the men with the butterfly nets.
Ignore him and hell load heaps of spam like never before, just to clog the site.
Deleting posts will only make him change his name.
Kiss him? Is this some weird ass cyber lingo? If not, count me out.
Cussin' can be used in conjunction with engaging him.(He likes to be called a fucktard)
Engaging may be useful for Christians new to this site, before it is clear whether they are drive-bys, trolls, or just curious. They may learn something, and we may learn something.
Engaging a troll can be entertaining for a while, but eventually it gets old. At that point, ignoring is the best policy.
Banning someone is an extreme action. However, Taylor/Marc/Passerby/Unblinded/Luke is an extreme case. He has a sick obsession with this blog, not unlike a one-sided infatuation of the sort that needs a court restraining order. He is nothing but a useless pest.
It made me kind of sick inside to here it all again. I come to this site for healing, comfort and reality. I think it is a big waste of time and energy to argue with these pin-heads. They are not here to reason and discuss. They are here to pass judgement and get their spiritual "rocks off", if you know what I mean. They probably go to Wednesday Night prayer meeting and testify as to how they witnessed to hundreds of sinners this week!
I Vote BAN!
Ex-Pastor Dan
I think all christians are worthless pieces of shit. They deserve to be disrespected.
to be achieved than deliberately ignoring someone.
Most people at one time or another have been in a store and thought they were invisible to the staff or stand there next to someone who doesn't introduce you to their friends.
Let these assholes post and then let's simply ignore them.
Let's face it, they go to all trouble of typing out what they think is the perfect rant and nobody acknowledges them.
The only thing we will miss will be the look of rage on their faces.
Sandra
Ignore the trolls. Don't feed them. Eventually they die of hunger. And not too soon either.
Dealing with trollkins is either *fun* or *frustrating* with little in between.
Eventually trolls run out of steam on their own, or after they are ignored, leave on their own.
This goofy bastard has marked up and left shit trails over the Bosses carpet with almost impunity.
I'd say "What do the folks who give value and add to community here want to do with the bucket of human feces?"
Know what I do with buckets filled as such...
kFL
I find that trolls usually do the work of showing how stupid Christianity us.
It might not have an effect on him, but it may get through to the many people passing through and seeing how all their arguments are refuted.
I probably have engaged this one, but tbh, who the hell remembers? I certainly don't recognise the names listed... he can't have been an overly entertaining troll boy...
Trolls, by definition in this context, are adversaries.
Sooner or later, in the real world, fighters--both individuals and groups like tribes and states--always lose. Even the strongest empires are always eventually defeated.
Nevertheless, all of us are probably the descendants of fighters. In cyber space, fighting is engaging. It is standing proud and defending our positions. I prefer engaging nicely. Others prefer engaging harshly.
Flight has it's limits as other species all over the world are finding out; as Iraqis are finding out; as Mexicans and Central Americans are finding out. Even in cyber space trolls would probably find us wherever we run.
Submitting in the case of trolls probably means tolerating them and mostly ignoring them. But throughout human history submitting meant slavery and/or annihilation. So intuitively it doesn't seem right.
Converting isn't an option for us. We know too much to ever accept Christian beliefs again. Most of us can't even fake it any more.
Jesus (I am referring to the literary character, not some actual historical person) and Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. and others advocated for passive resistance. That is, using non-violent means to persuade the aggressors to change their desires and thus their ways. Kissing the trolls just might do the trick!
But I voted to engage. Though in practice, I usually ignore. I voted to engage because it seems like groups are more likely to survive if they actively fight. Yes some groups like many native American tribes were exterminated when they fought. But none of the other strategies saved many other native American groups from extinction either. And I repeat, all of us probably had forebears who fought for survival successfully enough to permit our existence.
I say we engage them and kick their asses by shredding their argument and debate to pieces. I personally enjoy seeing christian trespassers being disrespected and I especially love it anytime they get all angry and pissed off and all they know how to do is start quoting bible scripture one verse after the other because they know they have lost the fight.
I say we don't ignore them. Plus I enjoy a good fight on here with some christian prick.
Engaging them, in my world, really means using them as a straight-man, so in a way the case for deleting their comments would be a matter of self-interest: it would be one less opportunity for my sadistic streak to manifest itself.
My real vote would be to delete the comments of the ones who are actually mentally ill, like Marc, since as a species we should have evolved beyond watching cockfighting and touring the asylum laughing at the patients; but keep the ones who have a functioning mind which at some level they might be struggling to jumpstart. Every ex-Christian has a day they can mark on the calendar as their last day of Christianity. The first day of Spring follows the last day of Winter.
"Posters like the one we have voted on typically thrive on attention and so we shouldn't give him any. Part of me would like to see him banned because his behavior is starting to disturb me more than anything else"
I personally think it is funny to see the person get so pissed off.
When they start quoting one bible scripture after the other, that just proves that they have lost control of the conversation and that we have got the best of them.
It gives me quiet a bit of satisfaction to see a christian lose control like that. It also shows just what a dumb ass most christians are.
I was really torn over what to vote for because some days I come here just to see if there's a troll being engaged and other times, I can't be bothered with them.
Thackerie's idea, if it's a feasible one, seems to be the best of all worlds.
Others need to see what these christians are saying so they can also see how Non-believers are able to strike down their arguments.
Anytime WM deletes christian posts it makes the debates to appear one sided in my opinion. We need to be able to show and prove that the christian argument can be defeated.
Hope I made sense.
"the posts that I have seen deleted needed to be. They were filled with vemenous hatred"
That's one of the other reasons why I feel they should not be deleted. They should be left there just so others can see the hatred that christians spew.
As much as I enjoy the occasional curb-stomping rant, it isn't doing a damned thing for my anger. Já, engaging the trolls is fine for bringing out anger; just not for moving beyond it.
On one forum of my acquaintance, whenever the DNFTT flag goes up everyone starts posting recipes or math problems... Discussing anything *but* the topic the troll wants to talk about.
In a similar vein, perhaps we could continue to attack the issues raised in the original topic, but analyze it in such painful detail that it leaves no place for the unwelcome visitor to stand.
Perhaps---followed by, if you don't like our "bitching and moaning", you are under no obligation to subject yourself to it---or put in bitchier terms: Fuck off.
"But you guys feed me so much. Oh, I'm stuffed already."
Since you are stuffed, can I eat the rest?
I'm quiet hungry myself.
There is plenty here for both of us.
Do you consider yourself to be a "follower of Christ?" If so, then, what do you suppose Jesus would do upon visiting this website? Would he come in as you did, arrogantly, thinking he's hot shit, with an attitude as though he is somehow special in God's eyes and the rest of us are scum? That is the way that you have presented yourself. Read your gospels, trollman. You're a bad christian! Bad! Bad! Your shit stinks, man, and you don't even realize it. Behave yourself.
Would you care to debate the gospels? I will rip your belief in "salvation" to shreds and use the teachings of Jesus to do it...
Christianity is nonsense, trollman. Wake up and smell the coffee. You people aren't "saved," and nobody is going to burn forever...
Christianity is nonsense...
If it's true that a christian is "saved" for having once "accepted Jesus," then how do you explain Matthew 23:13 where Jesus is quoted as having said "woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites. for you have shut up the kingdom of heaven against men. for you neither go in yourselves, nor suffer ye to allow others that are entering to go therein." This is not an exact quote, since I don't have my bible with me. Look it up for yourself! The second line in said passage shows Christ referring to entry into heaven in the present tense, disregarding the afterlife altogether, by saying "for you neither go in yourselves..." and "...to allow others that are entering..." What do you make of this? What is your opinion? Do you have an opinion, or do you have to ask your preacher? Do you suppose ANYBODY has the answer to my question? Could it be that the "heaven" to which Christ is referring is comparable to the Buddhist "nirvana" which Buddha experienced in his deep meditations? It is interesting to note that said passage occurs before the death and resurrection, which is necessary for "salvation" according to the christian church. Apparently, if one is to believe this, there is some way into heaven, according to Christ in Matt. 23:13, which is clearly not "accepting Jesus!" Don't take my word for it, read the passage yourself.
That's just for starters. The gospels are filled with such passages.
Regarding the death and resurrection of Christ, Have you ever noticed in first John 2:2 where John, who wrote the gospel of John (according to the King James version of the bible,) is quoted as having said "Christ is the propitiation (sacrifice) for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world." Christ, throughout the gospels, tells us that we go hell for our sins. The church tells us that we go to hell by choice and the choice is whether or not to "accept Jesus."
To summarize, then, We go to hell for our sins, then Christ dies as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, then we still go to hell, according to the church, unless we "accept Jesus."
The only answer to this is that it is the church that condemns us to hell forever, not God.
Your doctrine of eternal punishment in hell appears to be man-made, now. No surprise there.
Do you believe that everybody went to hell for four thousand years before Christ came and there they remain where they will burn forever? This is absurd nonsense, trollman. You should be ashamed of yourself for believing in something as absurd as christianity. Bad christian!! Bad! Bad!
If it is true that a christian is "saved" for having once "accepted Jesus" then why do the gospels tell us that one may be "saved" by "confessing with your mouth that Christ is lord and believing that God hath raised him from the dead (again, not an exact quote?") Is this a second way into heaven? a third, perhaps, since Christ appears to have taught some other way into heaven, actually. If it's true, then what does it mean to "accept Jesus?" Does it mean to "accept him into ones heart as ones personal lord and savior?" Would this not suggest that there is more to "salvation" than merely "accepting Jesus," as the church would have us believe, since one must "accept" him as "lord and saviour?" Why would this be so? Is a christian "saved," or not?
I could go on and on, but I'll do so only after you've answered my questions, trollman. I wonder if you are even capable of honest, intelligent debate, or if you are merely capable of being an "asshole for Christ."
The bible is a screwed up mess, and christianity is nonsense.
To believe that a "just and loving God" would cast "his" own children into burning, fiery torment forever does not make sense, for example.
Christianity is nonsensical, therefore, christianity is nonsense.
Will you stand up and defend your beliefs trollman, or will you stand there with your foot in your mouth?
The same goes for you, please share trollman. Will you defend your beliefs, or will you simply show us what a prick a christian can be?
I invite any christian out there in the world to come and convince us that christianity is anything less than the sham that it appears to be...
"Could it be that the "heaven" to which Christ is referring is comparable to the Buddhist "nirvana" which Buddha experienced in his deep meditations?"
Are you saying that Kurt Cobain was a Buddhist?
Christ loved everyone and shunned religion and government. He loved whores and little children and lepers and the poor and innocent. He said to "love your enemies," He said that there would be false teachers in his name. The bible says that if one says "I know him (Jesus) and keepeth not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." Christ said "many will come to me in that day, saying 'Lord, Lord,...etc. etc."
Again, I could go on and on, trollman.
We here are those your churches don't want. Here you will find atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, witches, new agers, homosexuals, lesbians, buddhists, occultist, etc. etc.-we share a disbelief in your religion. We meet here, respectfully, of each other. We are the ones that your church might consider to be "damned, (or "saved" since we once "accepted Jesus!" More nonsense on the part of the christian church)" Even according to your beliefs we must exist. We are the heathen! Somebody's gotta burn in that old lake o' fire!
You christians have your meeting places and plenty of them. We don't go into your places of worship and mention the absurdities of christianity! Have a little respect, please.
Be honest, trollman and company, have you ever just gotten a good belly-laugh out of christianity?
I'll give Billy Graham credit for his honesty. He once admitted that he could not understand everything in the bible.
Are you familiar with the history of the bible and of the christian church, trollman?
We've got plenty of info on your book and your religion here, I'll have you know. We tend to know the bible better than christians do, too.
trollman and fiends, as I said before, you christians have your meeting places, leave us to ours.
I see and hear so much christianity in Dallas. A large hotel on a major highway here has a ten foot simile of the ten commandments etched in their tablets standing at the entrance. A major franchise oil and lube shop refgularily has christian messages on its billboard facing a high trafic road. I once heard a person describing a robbery to me, saying that "The lord must have told those police officers where the burglars were, because those officers went right down the alley after them!" People routinely discuss bible prophecies and how they are coming true every day. A local sign painter with his own shop bears the slogan, "serving God by serving man." This is what it is like to live in the bible belt. Southern christianity is very strong here. Those who do not believe are somewhat isolated and quiet in their disbelief. There are countless christian churches here (perhaps millions) while I only know of two Buddhist temples, one Islamic mosque, one bahai temple, and several freemason locations. Again, you christians have your meeting places a'plenty and this is nearly all we have! Personally, I enjoy coming here and discussing the absurd and nonsensical nature of the christian faith and, frankly, getting away from you people!
Now, again, if you wish to visit, please do so respectfully.
Will you defend your beliefs, or won't you?
It's people like you, trollman, that drove many of us away from christianity to beging with.
Your website really does help to liberate a person from christianity. It's a path I find I must walk daily, interestingly enough, having learned to believe in absurdities such as "the Lord is with me" from a very early age. I want so much to be free of christianity and it's difficult to do so in Dallas. On that note, if there any other ex-christians in DFW, I'd be interested in meeting them. Maybe we could go camping or to the movies or something. Maybe a baseball game.
trollman, I wish you could understand. I come here to get away from people like you.
You sure don't seem to have anything else better to do with you time besides coming here bitching and moaning with your posts.
Thanks for the buffet Slingshot. I am so full that I have gained at least 50 pounds.
Take a Xanax dude! Chill out!
Is that the best you can say, trollman?
It seems as though you are unwilling or unable to defend your faith...
"Is that the best you can say, trollman?"
"It seems as though you are unwilling or unable to defend your faith"
It wouldn't matter anyway, since you seem to have your mind made up about christianity. Besides, I'm having a really good feast right now considering that you are "Feeding The Troll" (Me).
Like the other poster said, you need to take a Xanax and calm down before the men in white suits show up and haul you away in a straight jacket.
I must say Slingshot, that you are quiet entertaining. You would make a great comedian. *winks*
Can you not tell this person is fucking with you?
I suggest you stop copying my name.
Slingshot, are you aware of the North Texas Church of Freethought? They have many exchristians among their members. They also have a group that goes to the movies together.
From their web site:
"Like other churches, we explore all the most puzzling problems and questions of the human condition - but through the eyes of reason!
"Our monthly services are held on the first Sunday of every month at the Wyndham Hotel DFW Airport North in Irving, located at the corner of Hwy. 114 (John Carpenter Freeway) at Esters Blvd. and we start promptly at 10:30 AM."
I am sorry but I don't know how to insert a link in this format. But here is the URL http://www.churchoffreethought.org/
"you seem to have your mind made up about christianity." Well, at least you've shown you've got something intelligent and worthwhile to say. I had my doubts.
As far as feeding the troll (you)I suppose you must be hungry for some integrity after being fed the nonsense your church feeds you.
Dine away!
resonate11, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll look them up.
thenewagereformation.blogspot.com
The End of Religion!? The New Age Reformation
I agree with you on these points. I come here to encourage and be encouraged with others who have taken the red pill and joined reality.
However, I voted to ignore. Every post they commit just makes me more thankful I am free from it. And yes, sometimes it is good debate and I want to try and throw a point or two in.
I am completely capable of ignoring or confronting posts as the mood strikes me. I do wonder about the newly freed minds, but as was mentioned, I am sure they deal with this IRL on a regular basis. The difference is that there are folks here to encourage them and perhaps even help to ward off some of the mysticism.
Webmaster, Boomslang, Atheisttoothfairy, Leotracks, Phant, Astreja, and Trancelation would absolutely die if they did not reply to my posts. All of you love a good argument. None of you can resist replying to my posts.
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