Wind, love, and Ray Comfort’s wife: A showdown at Huntington Beach
by whydowebelieve
Whydowebelieve's plans for a lovely picnic at Huntington Beach are interrupted as Ray Comfort shows up to tell him that knowing Jesus is like knowing Comfort's wife.
Whydowebelieve's plans for a lovely picnic at Huntington Beach are interrupted as Ray Comfort shows up to tell him that knowing Jesus is like knowing Comfort's wife.
We felt compelled to expose these falsehoods to his gathered audience in the same way our blog challenges religious beliefs in other arenas.
Comments
The truth is that if more people were like Ray the world would be a much better place. There would be no crime and people would be more industrious. He is actively trying to live a good life and help people. Everything he stands for is helping society to be a better place. God help us if people like Ray go away and are marginalised. You athiest can do whatever you like, like kill and steal. Of course you're not going to like the message! Why do you think there are martyrs all around the world! Why do you think many of the prophets were killed! - because we hate to see the truth that there is something terribly wrong with our lives and that WE ARE WRONG!!!!!!!! He might look like a ranter and a raver at times but hes as sane and as solid as anyone.
Jordan said that you have to follow the 10 Commandmants. Ray, whilst saying that the 10 Cs are good is saying you can't follow them alone for salvation, hence he said he never told anyone to follow them (for salvation). He would tell people to try to follow them but you need to have faith in Christ as well as repentance(includes the 10Cs) to be saved.
Dear Ray would have been literally cut to pieces during the dark ages! I agree that type of religion is bad. You wern't permitted to even read the bible then as there was no freedom. You see they wern't bible believers! People were tortured for believing what Ray teaches. Can you honestly see Ray killing people because he believes the bread and wine are symbolic only? (a similar thing was done by the Roman 'church' during the dark ages).
When you refer to science I expect you mean evolution. Science has not discovered all the answers on that topic. It is as simple as that. Don't trust the confident assertions of a few highly educated wine drinking 'experts'. They don't care about you anyway.
As for true believers, Xians say that of each other today, so who is to say they weren't true believers for their time? Not you, because you are just saying the same thing, only of the people in the past. Not much different.
The Bible, written by humans and very errant, doesn't care about you either. It is just a book.
If Ray went back in time it is a fact that he would have been killed by the 'church' of the time for what he is doing. If you take the bible at face value you must come to the conclusion that they were not true believers. For example if you believed in faith in Christs atonement alone to remove all debt of sin you could be killed. True believers preach the Gospel, these guys would not let the people read the bible and made up their own teachings (eg pay money to get relatives out of pergatory) so that people were in servitude and fear to the church. As soon as people started reading and believing the word, all hell broke loose. The 'church' lost its control. Wycliff began translating the bible into english as was later declared a heretic by the church!
The bible is not just a book! It is a collectoin of 66 books spaning human history telling us where we came from and what has happened! Are you seriously going to tell me Abraham, Moses, David and the people of Israel never existed? The whole bible is a lie?
You're kidding Me, right? 'Ray Comfort' clones making the world a better place? Hardly, Bear. The man is, in My opinion, a bully.
He may also be an intellectual property thief. The bowdlerized Origin of Species fiasco, already a frightful mess, took another interesting turn when allegations of a stolen introduction surfaced.
"You athiest can do whatever you like, like kill and steal."
So can you, Bear. Speaking for Myself here, I do not kill and I do not steal. I obey My community's laws, not because I'm afraid that some mythical Sky Daddy will slap Me silly but because I can see the merit in having such laws.
"He would tell people to try to follow them but you need to have faith in Christ as well as repentance (includes the 10Cs) to be saved."
Unsupported assertion: No evidence for "Christ" and no evidence for salvation. You live. You die. Don't expect much of anything to happen afterwards, because there's no evidence for life after death, either.
Missed this previously, but no I cannot. Maybe you can, but I cannot. It goes against my deepest values.
People were *also* tortured for believing the teachings of Scandinavian ancestors' village shamans. What's your point?
The point is Mriana was somehow suggeting that Rays way of thinking is somehow comparable to the dark ages where widespread misery and destruction followed. I was trying to help her see that this is not the case.
I'm not certain you recognize the logical fallacy here. Some parts of the Bible are based on fact. Others are not. But what you are claiming is that the verifiability of one part is indicative of the verifiability of the whole.
It's the same line of bullshit that ten-commandment-statue fanatics push - they claim that because we agree with some specific points (do not kill), we should agree with the whole. Both them and you are incapable of recognizing that the whole is made up of individual parts.
In other words, are you seriously going to tell me that Poseidon, Achilles, Agamemnon, and the people of Greece and Troy never existed? The whole Iliad is a lie?
"When you refer to science I expect you mean evolution. Science has not discovered all the answers on that topic. It is as simple as that."
Yes, life is really simple if you only read one book and trust a chosen few to give information. Science will never have absolute answers becase it has a self-correction mechanism, it's theories become more credible (to the point of factual) over time. Evolution is one of these theories that is now considered factual, as essentially all physical evidence and discoveries have validated and strengthened it.
There is no physical evidence for the existence of god, ergo, no credibility to speak of one. The buy-bull is merely a collection of recycled goat-hearder tall-tales, written and selected by man to support the existence of a composite mythological divinity, jebus.
Oh, by the way, xtianity has left a trail of bloodshed behind her throughout history. It doesn't matter if you are not catholic, that is the origin of your beliefs. My own ancestors in Northern Europe were baptised by fire or in thier own blood. Ask to Native Americans about xtian "love."
You need a reality based education in the worst way.
What, in the name anything holy or rational makes you come out with such crass statements, bear?
You xians can also steal, kill or do what you like, safe in the knowledge that you will be forgiven. Bearing in mind the history of your religion (no, it is NOT a relationship, it IS a religion), then your god has had to do an awful lot of forgiving of the faithful, has he not?
Crawl back under your dogma. You are not worth the brainspace.
Peace,
David
With regards to the Iliad and other sources it does appear that Troy did exist and the Greeks fought some kind of battle thousands of years ago. I have no serious reason to doubt the names and places. The Bible account however has far more attestation than that. For example, the Israelites method of preserving the integrity of the scriptures (e.g. counting every word and dedicating a whole class of people (Masorites) to maintain accuracy). Not only that but the message if the Iliad is basically just an account of two waring nations. It doesn't claim to be mans way of Salvation.
If you believe Abraham existed there is no reason why you would doubt that his Father (Terah) existed. Keep going all the way back to Adam. The bible talks about these people, their lives, offspring and events. Why is the bible the only history book that people doubt? In fact even Jesus Christ and Davids geanealogy all the way back to Adam is recorded in the Bible! You may disagree with the moral decrees and God himself, but names, places and events? I mean something pretty big happened no matter what you believe! People deliberately lied? Why does the bibles historical accounts match up with secular historians? Why believe any book then? Throw the whole lot out because you can't trust any of them.
Evolution is now one of those theories considered factual by people who want to believe it.
Essentially all physical evidence and discoveries have validated and strengthened it, like the dinosaur blood that was discovered recently. Like the seasonal changes found in darwins finches (not evolution). Like interspecies breeding. Like the fact that how does a biological structure that cannot perform a function unless it it fully formed evolve over millions of years with absolutely no function!?! Shall I go on! Did you know that Darwin didn't 'discover' natural selection? His theory was evolution by natural selection (a creationist idea).
The roman church came into existance about 300AD. Think about it. The early church was persecuted. The head of the church didn't live in a palace in Rome. Then the emperor became christian and basically everyone had to become a christian. They took their pagan practises and christianised them. The resultant product became the roman church. It kept the word from the people and gained in temporal power resulting in the Dark Ages and persecution of pre -refomation believers.
I'll also disagree with you about the claims of being a way of Salvation. To the Greeks, honor was everything, and by repeating the Iliad verbatim, not only did it honor those who fought and those who died, it also taught important lessons about living and fighting honorably. It may not be the salvation you're expecting, but it contains as much salvation as is contained in the old testament.
I do not believe Abraham existed, as he is described in the Bible. I have an apocryphal genealogy that links me to Charlemagne. Do you believe I exist? Do you believe my parents exist? Follow that back, and you'll see that, without doubt, that I am a direct descendant of the King of the Franks. Here's a hint for you - genealogies can be made up easily. I'm fairly certain mine is, why wouldn't the one in the Bible?
Oh wait, I'm sorry, are we talking about the one in Matthew or Luke? Your flawless document can't even agree on Jesus's Grandfather; why should we believe it all the way back to Adam?
Why is the bible the only history book that people doubt? News flash: all history books are doubted to some degree. That's why we use primary and secondary sources - often from opposing viewpoints - to ensure that we have the most accurate history as possible. The only corroboration that the Christians have for their Bible is documents written 60+ years after the events occur and support of forged quotes (Josephus, I'm looking at you). Well, that and the Inquisition - although 'believe, or we'll kill you' isn't in vogue with Christians any more. (Besides, you'd think that the Egyptians would notice and record a large number of slaves escaping somewhere. We've a lot more trivial writings from them, you know.)
And why believe any book? Because I'd much sooner learn from something that would get replaced if it's shown to be wrong, than learn deliberate falsehoods as gospel truth.
I agree with Mriana. Mr. Comfort is not doing this planet any good, as he is perpetuating the very same "Humanity is worthless" teachings that caused the Dark Ages.
It doesn't have to be entirely a lie in order to be undependable.
Much as I would love to have a Talking Snake ™ of My very own, the Adam and Eve story is rubbish. Abraham and Moses are very likely mythological characters or mythologically-enhanced real people. David may have been real, but painted larger-than-life. And the resurrection of Jesus and the entirety of Revelation are even worse rubbish than Genesis.
Seriously, I don't understand how you can consider the Bible to be a reliable guide to Life, the Universe and Everything. (wanders off shaking Her head)
To my knowledge, he never EVER killed anyone and was NOT A FUCKING THIEF! You are a spiteful, bigoted creep for insinuating that he was either of those things. Burn in hell Bear.
-Cully
Have you read this site's disclaimer? It's easier to understand and follow than the holey buybull.
Please don't go on, you're spouting nonsense.
I'm going to the beach to eat chips and fried chicken.
Do the research before you make assertions about your faith. It's a lot easier to avoid looking the fool if you know a fair amount more about what you're stating as fact.
There's nothing wrong with liking (selected) stories in the Bible, or the idea that you're loved by a big nice guy. I personally like the Good Samaritan parable and the book of Ecclesiastes, and I know that I'm loved by a big nice guy. In this case, however, the big nice guy is my father, and he can actually show the love he has, so it's not just an idea told to me by others and their self-authenticating book.
One final, sincere question for you: If Jesus is the literal Son of God, why would they even bother listing the genealogy of Joseph. He's not the biological father, and it's roughly equivalent to claiming he's got a blood birthright through his adopted father. I won't dispute that (making the huge assumption that what was described is true) Joseph is Jesus' real father, as much as any adopted father is. But Jesus doesn't share Joseph's bloodline, so listing who his adoptive great*x-grandfather is seems futile.
One of the tool used to verify the accuracy of the bible is archaeology. There are many instances where places, names and customs have been verified by the discovery of ancient artifacts, documents and places. Examples include the discovery of the Hitite civilization, Sargons palace and Belshazzars name on clay tablets to name a few. The only evidence for there existence was the bible, until they were actually discovered. This demonstrates that the bible is historically accurate so far and we are piece by piece seeing its truth unfold.
Also the Iliad covers a very short part of the Greco-Troy war penned by one person. The bible in contrast covers a much greater period, is penned by many more authors creating a significantly greater work.
Also, I would think that because the Iliad covers a much smaller scope, and because it had only a single author, that this would make it more accurate, not less. Having multiple authors over a long time and having a larger scope gives greater chance for error to creep in; later authors have an active interest in showing prophecies to be true, and people always want to show their history in the best possible light, even if it means straying from the truth. Would not this problem be magnified in a work of such massive scope as the Bible?
You quote of "archaeology has not proven anything of the Bible" is quite bullish of you. Even your mate Parse below is willing to conceed that there are some accuracies "of a few choise details"! I don't want to get into the tis, tisn't schoolyard scenario but now it's my turn to say do some research for yourself!
I guess it all boils down to how much weight you put on the evidence. Not just archaeological either! Look around you. This world despite its beauty is tarnished by something. Why? Most people are insecure. Why? What is love after all? Its not something science can measure (Back to Ray!). Evidence is greater than the lack of it because it means you just may not have found it yet. There doesn't appear to be any substantial conflicting evidence at the moment.
As for the Davinci code both religious and secular experts think its historically baloney! The first line in Wikipedia : The Da Vinci Code is a 2003 mystery-detective fiction novel written by American author Dan Brown. John Jakes north and south are written as historical novels, the bible is not. You have to take it at face value i.e. believe in it or not.
Hi Parse
How so?
Your next paragraph seems to be an ad hom
I don't recall mentioning anything about the Da Vinci Code. The Bile is a novel. There is no truth to it. It is written mythology, written to a specific culture.
Its bullish because when confronted with cold hard facts its like you put your fingers in your ears and pretend you are a police siren. At least Parse was willing to make some admissions. A bull is a kind of stubborn animal that puts its head down and cannot be reasoned with. Look, I don't want to be rude. Maybe you gave up on the faith because of offense primarily and you actually want the whole lot to be a farse. You seem to be a very hard nut.
Sorry I was replying to Parse about the DaVinci code.
Actually, it is the other way around. I present cold hard facts and you put your fingers in your ears. Try reading my post about Easter and Sun Worship. There is your cold hard facts. The WHOLE of Xianity is just that- solar mythology rewritten to a specific culture.
I gave it up because I studied it thoroughly- it is created by humans, not the inerrant word of God, and completely mythology. I suggest you read Bishop John Shelby Spong's work. You might learn something and yes, I am stubborn, esp when it comes to someone dishing out BS. You don't have a clue.
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links/False_Testament_%28Harpers%29.htm
Look at a map of the world Bear.
1 following statement is in no way intended as an affront to the Semitic people.
Look at that map, There are a number of continents.
The bible is a collection of more than 66 books spanning Hebrew history and telling THEM where THEY came from.
Change my THEY to a YOU if you happen to be Hebrew.
The Semitic portion of that map which you may or may not be studying is TINY. There are many many human cultures on this planet on every single continent save Antarctica.
Most of these cultures by far are most certainly are not rooted in the middle east.
The bible tells us little to nothing about human history and never can since it is an ecclectic mythology cobbled together by bronze age to iron age middle eastern religious mythologists. Most books were passed along orally with no valid accreditation mechanism, then written down helter-skelter over generations. Then were translated with errors and interpretations and subjected to editing by later religious mythologists who were in the business of controlling the population of Europe. Then what was left was later translated with errors and interpretations into our language.
I have a non Semitic geaneology and because of the European misuse and abuse of the Hebrew people's mythology, and the power they derived from this, I will never know the rich and varied histories of my ancestors.
Human history... next you're going to tell us that the Universe is only 6000 years old!
-Cully
No, Biffo, we have not said that the whole of the Bile is a lie, but you have been duped into believing it is a history book, full of facts. Just because Abraham existed does not mean that snakes could talk, or that the sun could stand still.
Despite containing a few historical accuracies, the Bile is generally a collection of writings by primitives which shows their attempts to make sense of the confusing world they found themselves in.
It is also a manual for the generation of income by those too lazy to work fr their living like other people - those who have convinced their fellows that they, and they alone, have a hot-line to a divine power who demands money and burnt offerings.
It is a manual telling the ambitious idle how they may prey upon the guilt and insecurity of average people and how to part them from their money and possessions.
I do not know whether you are an average Joe, who has been duped and who has been often parted from his money by the fraud, or whethet you are one of the fraudsters, who live by the lies that have been created about divinities from the 66 books you revere. Whichever it is, you owe it to yourself and your conscience to educate yourself out of the bronze age in which you are currently so comfortable, so that you are equipped to live on your own efforts in the real world and so that you stop attempting to con others into the fraudulent lifestyle that you have adopted.
May reason and knowledge free you from the thrall of reverence to the reverends,
David
Biffo, you do peddle some twaddle!
I believe that the BMW parked outside exists, that does not mean that I must believe that its ancestor, the horse and cart, was an automobile created by the same German car factory.
The reason we can believe other books is that their contents are testable. The collective authors of the Bile were so scared of being examined that they onsidered such attempts to be "testing god", to the extent that they wrote commands NOT to test god into the text.
How much more of a self-referential text can you get. AND YOU HAVE BEEN SUCKED INTO THE LIE!!
Run away now, while you still have the chance to live a real and fulfilling life.
Peace,
David
Evolution is now one of those theories considered factual by people who want to believe it.
Knowing that you cannot deny or argue against science, especially as you sit at your computer, taking advantages of scientific knowledge, so you attempt to restrict discussion to evolution, a subject about which you have probably read some webpages by some ill-informed, fake-PhD holding, Young Earth apologists.
Not only are you obviously deluded and have been completely sucked into the xian death cult lies, you are also dishonest.
Mriana was NOT talking about evolution only, but about science, something you know nothing about, probably due to constitutional deficiencies and issues with literacy.
May your god strike you down for ignoring the organ he has placed in the cavity between your ears.
David
And daily, in this forum, we are presented with evidence of his success, of thich thebear is the latest in a long, inexhaustable line.
NO! The effect would be that fewer people would be able to see that the world could be improved.
Ray's world does not have medicine or surgery, only prayer.
Ray's world has you sleeping in tents and caves as your hero Abraham did.
Ray's world has epilepsy caused by demons and sufferers ostracized.
Ray's world has adulterers and rebellious children stoned to death.
Ray's world is full of one-handed women who inadvertently touched a man's genitals whilst trying to save her husband from violence.
I challenge you to live for a week in a world containing only those things mentioned in the Holey Bile. You can live for a week without food and water - earthquake victims have proven it, recently. No car, no mall, no corner store, no TV, no internet; but not to worry, not only did god do it, but god will also do it, will he not, and provide for all your needs, "according to his riches in glory".
I challenge you to do it for a week.
Day one: Living by faith;
Day Two: Living in hope;
Day Three: Living on Charity.
Prove me wrong!
If we are not supposed to listen to 'experts', such as Richard Dawkins, when it comes to evolutionary biology, who would you suggest we listen to? Where have you found all of the 'answers'?
XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)
lol I'm getting a kick out of how my words catch on around here.
Despite containing a few historical accuracies, the Bile is generally a collection of writings by primitives which shows their attempts to make sense of the confusing world they found themselves in.
Exactly what I have been saying, but it seems no matter how much we repeat it and explain it, Xian trolls continue to put their fingers in their ears and say, "La, la, la, la, I can't hear you" and then turn around and point the finger in the other direction. That is a prime example of projection.
Not only are they brainwashed into mistaken ideas, but they are well trained in the art of projecting their behaviors on others. IMO, this is a prime example of hijacking cognitive thinking. Not does religion do psychological damage, it really does hijack cognitive development AND keeps people in primitive and child-like thinking.
But don't mind me. I've always been one to sit back and observe humans, both as a safety mechanism and as a means of learning about human behaviour. However, what I am seeing here with these trolls and watching other Xians in RL, seems to support what many psychologists and neuro-scientists have been saying about religious thinking and alike. It goes far beyond just cognitive dissidence.
I don't know if we can reach such people mentally and with them raising future generations of children in such mentally abusive situations, I am also not sure how to end the cycle and reach upcoming generations. The more we try, the more they shelter them, even passing educational laws, like was seen in Texas just this past week, to keep their children brainwashed and mentally developmentally stunted.
I know the Bare will probably jump me for this "psychological evaluation", but the fact is, it would seem the psychological things I just pointed out about the Xian trolls around is quite accurate based on what many of us learned here alone. I'm not just relying solely on my BS degree in Psychology, but rather the things that Valerie, Marlene, and some others via videos and alike, have pointed out here on this site. It really does go far beyond brainwashing alone. It is a whole smorgasbord board of psychological techniques to keep people "in the fold", including education wise. I guess knowledge really is an enemy of "faith".
Thank you. It is nice to have people who are literate about science, have a good grasp of it, educated, and supportive of other people's statements in relationship to it. Not just you, glebealyth, but everyone here. It saddens me to see people like the Bare, who don't even have a bare grasp of such things, not even of history.
My heart really breaks for you. I believe you are sincere. You poor, mis-guieded fool.
Do yourself a favor. Read something besides christian apologists. Your precious bible is NOT god's word. You are very lacking in understanding when it comes to biblical and church history.
First of all (I will keep this extremely simple) the beginnings of your bible came about around 325-327 C.E. under Constantine, for purely politcal reasons. No one knows exactly how many 'books' were put into that version. We know that there was much fighting and arguing about what got in and why. Many Myths and legends were incorporated. Constantine pushed his 'favorites' - the point being, it didn't much matter to him. He, as leader of that part of the world, was tired of the waring and fighting going on (the worst of which was being done by the 'religious' leaders of the day).
Moving on.......In the seventh Century, the church leaders of that time and place decided that the first group of Bozos (from the first council of Nicea - 325 C.E.) got it all wrong! The convened the second council Nicea. At this time, approximately 74 books were settled upon (not 66 books, that is a Protestant Bible, not the original).
When Luther decided to rebel against the 'True & Original' Catholic Church; Protestantism was born (1517). Luther wrote his own version of the bible, which was relied heavily upon, in the production of the King James Version (1611). Luther inserted his own thoughts and feelings into his version, in fact he was responsible for books being removed from the "Orthodox" version. He wanted to get rid of more books (He did not like Hebrews or Jude & refused to preach from them), but ultimately the 66 books that are now the Protestant bible, were settled upon.
So which bible is god's words??? NONE OF THEM, of course! No more than the book of Morman or the Koran or (for that matter) Star Trek or Harry Potter!
You have been brain-washed and duped....Just like dear old brother Ray.
Please educate yourself and get out of the world of make believe; in the end it will take your sanity!
Come back to REALITY and TRUTH!
From my heart,
XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)
The link you posted doesn't seem to work, nor does searching on that website itself.
Perhaps you can check the link for us?
Thanks,
ATF
Bear,
If I were to point you at the Empire State Bldg, in NYC and tell you that this building is my evidence for the former existence of a great ape named "King Kong", just how likely are you to swallow this extraordinary claim?
Please visit your local library, the Fiction Section, and you'll quickly discover that many stories of fiction are wrapped around real places, and also will sometimes cite real historical people.
Writers tend to do this to make the story more believable, just as the writers of the bible did.
It's all a huge scam and the sooner you realize this sad fact, the better your life will be.
ATF (Who thinks this all could be put-to-rest, if this SHY god would only get his butt down here and show us who he really is)
But most of the ideas which you are accepting and passing as facts are well known falsehoods, and many of us here once fell victim to them.
Though you have insulted me and my fellow atheists,
and in turn I have compared you to the Swedish Chef, I honestly perceive that you are quite intelligent and decent. This does not make your religious belief system acceptable to me, and I strongly suspect that your information sources are biased. Especially in reference to archaeological evidences for the bible, and your classification of evolution as a belief system, comparable to religious faith.
If any knowledge requires faith to be accepted, then it is not knowledge.
If you are very happy with your faith situation, good for you.
If you wish to continue debating the ex-christians here, I warn you that you may encounter questions which neither you nor your sources can honestly answer or dismiss. There are very good reasons for our rejection of christian beliefs. This kind of thing could, as I have personally found, lead you into serious doubts and ultimately to ex-christian status.
If this is your intended outcome, then may your awakening be tolerable and thorough (mine was not gentle).
-Cully
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links/False_Testament_(Harpers).htm
The author of the article false testament, in evolutionary fashion, uses terms such as ‘are now thought to have’, ‘appear to have been’, ‘seem to have been’, ‘once thought as….is now seen as’, ‘believe’ and ‘seemed to fit’. All this indicates the authors personal bias to the evidence (or lack of it).
Logically it would be very difficult for the bible to distort history because it would mean that the entire nation would all have agreed on and propagated a lie. Imagine if someone tried to say the American civil war 2 occurred in 1986? They would have to make up intricate stories and then try to sell it as fact to a population that would laugh at them! It just wouldn’t happen! The same holds for the bible. Any person who wanted to ‘change the truth’ would have been dismissed or ridiculed by the existing populace. The nation of Israel is living proof that the bible is true. You choose to believe that the bible is a made up story, but it is not that simple. It is not easy to dismiss. It is not written as a story. In fact just reading the bible makes me just marvel in amazement (sorry). You need to read it every day to appreciate it. If you stop reading it I have noticed that very quickly you can be decieved. “Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.” (Charlton Heston).
You might consider refraining from using the word "logical" and instead use the phrase "in my opinion." Just a suggestion.
And for another suggestion, here's an article by a former pastor that may provide you some food for thought: http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/03/did-israels-exodus-from-egypt-actually.php
You choose to believe that the bible is a made up story
And you choose to believe it isn't, because believing it gives you a sense of security and the promise of eternal bliss.
You need to read it every day to appreciate it. If you stop reading it I have noticed that very quickly you can be decieved.
Yeah - I wonder why that is?
You missed the point, which is quite typical of many theist.
Let me rephrase it a bit clearer for you.
The empire state building is no better evidence for the existence of King Kong, than biblical geographical locations and structures, are apt to prove that the bible is telling the truth about an invisible all-everything god being.
FYI: To atheists, your bible storybook is the same kind of fiction that the story of King Kong was. Some of the natural citations were real, some not to so much, but none of the extraordinary claims can be shown to have occurred.
Now, if you have historical evidence for your god and/or jesus, by all means, bring it forth.
ATF (Who wonders if he is related to the bears that ripped apart those kids in the bible?)
You say "The content remains the same." The same as what? Certainly not the same as whatever was put together at the first council of Nicea. Do you mean the same since the second council of Nicea (8th Century C.E.) or are you referring to the Protestant Bible from the 16th Century C.E.?
The content certainly has not remained the same.
You said, "What I like about the bible is that it has the support and verification of the Old testament as well." WTF?
So you like the bible because it verifies itself??! Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, ETC............
Sorry dude, you are a fu(king MORON! How can we carry on a mature and intelligent conversation with that kind of reasoning????
Hey Boomslang and Mriana, please take over; I'm done with this 'pus-for-brains', christian, apologist.
XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)
By that astute reasoning I would put forward this theory - The Nation of Iraq, __________________(insert any country in the Middle East) is living proof that the Koran is true.
And don't come back with bullshit about 1948 and the 6 day war! Even if you believe the bible is the word of god, the nation of Israel lost its status as 'God's Chosen Nation' (physically) after Christ died and openned up Salvation for ALL (Jews and Gentiles). Romans 2:29
I don't know why I answered this comment. Obviously you have a great lack of reasoning ability......so typical of deluded christians.
I am sorry to have to be the one to tell you......YOU ARE RETARDED!
Good Bye,
XPD
I knew it was hopeless when he/she said, "what I like about the bible is that it has the support and verification of the Old Testament." WTF?? Homer Simpson just slapped his forehead and cried "DuOOOOOh"!
What a novel idea; the bible verifies itself! Oh, now I get it! As the old gospel ditty sings, 'God said it, I believe it, so that settles it for me!'
You know, it all makes perfect sense now. God wrote the bible.
The bible says God exists....
Therefore, God exists!
Well, slap my ass and call me Suzy! Now I get it. It's back to church on Sunday for me. I hope they give me a Sunday School class to teach.......having all truth is soooooooo wonderful! [sic]
XPD
You said: “but none of the extra ordinary claims (of King Kong) can be shown to have occurred”
The point is King Kong did not make any extra ordinary claims; It’s entertainment. You can’t really compare King Kong to the bible in any way shape or form. However, I do see the point you are trying to make.
I’m not trying to tell “the truth about an invisible all-everything god being” in this instance. What I’m trying to do is show that there is no reason to significantly doubt the places, names and events (non-miraculous) in the bible. If these can be believed then in my opinion it opens the reader to believe the rest. In fact the two must be strongly linked.
For example if it could be shown (outside the bible) that the Israelites were in Egypt then this would be a serious victory for the bible because it would verify the truth of the bible account. To this date not much (or no) real evidence for this has appeared. This is one example atheists point to show the bible is not true. Therefore, in this instance, geographic locations are very important.
As far as structures are concerned, just imagine the impact of finding an ark of the dimensions found in genesis on Mt Ararat!! Even then the atheist could create some seemingly justifiable defense, but it would still be another step in validating the bibles account.
Evidence for historical accuracy of the bible: Do the research yourself.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html
Saying the bible verifies itself may be a sweeping statement, but have you read the prophesies concerning the coming of Christ? (I know you have). That fact or whatever you call it, is quite remarkable. Also the NT has its root/foundation in the rich traditions/ faith of the OT.
The Quran too has its roots in the bible and the children of Ishmael (and possibly Esau) are regarded as the Arab ancestors. The bible seems to provide a backdrop for Israel/Arab hostilities (deception and rejection in genesis). Islam has really just hijacked the traditions/truth of the bible for itself and then changed it where it saw fit.
Israel is not finished with. What is Armageddon all about? Why have the nations surrounded it? I don’t believe in replacement theology.
I choose to believe the bible because it makes sense to me. My dad is a Vietnam vet and basically didn’t love me. I don’t blame him because he was rejected and discarded by his family who were not believers. He doesn’t believe in God probably because his folks didn’t love him and instruct him in the way. He can’t love because it is not in him and he has a seething hostility about anything to do with the bible. The people who got him in this mess don’t believe the bible yet he can’t see the connection. He is basically living his own parents life who rejected him! In being ‘bad’ and not believing in God my dad is actually another evidence of the truth of God. If he had been ‘good’ but not believed it may have been harder to believe. Its quite plain to me now. If you believe the bible properly you will love. Ray is a good guy, no doubt about that; he’s on your side, he really is. Evidence is important, good and fascinating, but the spiritual/relational side is where it’s really at and the bible is king at that.
No, you need to read and watch Star Trek every day or you quickly become delusional into thinking someone other than Kirk is God. Kirk has had more resurrections then JC and have saved mankind many times over from themselves and others. Why he even brought Spock back from the dead. It even has great sayings to live life by too-" We strive to better ourselves and society." "We seek out new life and new civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before!" Oh and let us not forget the Prime Directive and Data with his "We are more alike than unalike. If you cut me do I not bleek."
Please post the latitude and longitude of armageddon, I am a military buff and I want to see the nations who have surrounded this place.
Also please post a list of the nations who have armageddon surrounded and what kinds of weapons, tanks, artillery pieces etc. which are present there. I hope it's Leopards versus Abrams tanks! That would be something to see. Are the Russians there? They have awesome cargo planes!.
Oh, yeah, please post photos of all the troops there if you have some.
This is really big news!
I find it unconvincing that the lord, master and creator of the universe intends to hold the final battle there, unless he has discovered a way of capturing the methane and using it as a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
Peace,
david
The wonderful thing about being a bible believer is that it means you not only don't have to think any longer, but nor do you need to bother to learn anything.
GOD DID IT ALL - and he personally wrote it down for us.
Saves an awful lot of that darned, pesky thinkin' stuff now, doesn't!!
Those who don't agree are heathen blasphemers!
Bear,
You seem to be basing the whole of your life on imaginary evidence.
Not only do you believe the buybull, but you then rest your hope on how good it would be if the ark were found and rejoice in the discomfiture of atheists in this event.
It has not happened and probably never will.
Would you not be better off founding your life upon things which have been found?
You said, "Saves an awful lot of that darned, pesky thinkin' stuff now, doesn't [it]!!"
Maybe this isn't the right place to start this, but I have been thinking of that alot. How should I put it?
Is there a point where intelligence cancels out the ability to 'believe' or have 'faith' ? If you are truly 'smart' 'intelligent' ... say, if you are past 130 on the IQ scale.....or 140.....or 150?? Is there a point where the brain just 'CAN'T' function in the world of 'non-reality' any longer?
Conversely, can a moron understand and function in a 'reality-based' world? Could a moron be a free-thinker? An Atheist?
My wife and I have discussed this. The church that I was raised in was over-loaded with mentally deficient folks. As my wife put it, "When I first walked into that church I was amazed by the fact that all of the scum, dumb shits and poverty stricken wretches, from our town, were all gathered together in one place!"
I don't want to sound elitest, but after reading Daniel C. Dennet's 'Breaking the Spell', it just got me to thinking. There have been some studies done but much more needs to be done.
I recently saw a T.V. story about the Mensus (Sp?) Society. They all have IQs of 140 or greater. Many are 160 +. A group of researchers had tried to interview them about 'Religious Beliefs' and had been turned away. I got the feeling that they were all Atheists but were afraid of the Political IN-correctness that THAT information would relay to our christian (synonymous with American) based society.....you know, god forbid if the christians feel like someone is calling them STUPID!
Sorry if this seems rambling. I am just a little over average in the IQ department.....that's why I choose to ask you (our resident, confirmed genius) your thoughts.
I welcome comments from all of the great minds that frequent here.
XPD
Thanks,
XPD
The spelling is Mensa.
As to intelligence preventing faith...
I have known Fellows of the Royal Society who still believe in god. Intelligence does not seem to be a bar to delusion. Neither you nor I are stupid, yet we succumbed. Once you have decided to believe, you probably use your natural endowment to facilitate that belief and, if you are clever enough, you can better rationalize away the cognitive dissonance.
All brains are equipped to function in the world of "non-reality". If that were not the case then one night of dreaming as an adult would probably be enough to drive you insane. "Believing seven impossible things before breakfast" seems to be a standard piece of human equipment. Think about little superstitions and then again, OCD sufferers, who cannot perform without their little rituals. I'm sure you can come up with other examples.
Anyway - I'm off to rub my rabbit's foot and think about what to cook for supper.
OATN,
David
Also, I think IQ plays into account when a young child observes others and sees things that are just not right in the behaviours of others. This can be a jumping off point in which one ends up questioning, seeking answers, thus getting an education. So the two play together in combination, IMO.
I never questioned my faith until I was an adult and had been in the ministry for years. In fact, I never really questioned it until I had been out of the ministry for a few years and the trials of life were pressing me for REAL answers! Perhaps some kids are 'pressed' for answers early on, therefore they start seaching much earlier.
Good thoughts, Thanks to you and David
To David (glebealyth) - How about haggis for dinner?
XPD
Many of unusual capacities receive their indoctrination early on, and manifest their gifts early on. By and large the superthinkers I have observed are extremely sensitive to their own blunders and so are not given over to admission. Some will go to great lengths to irrationally defend an errant position which they have held because their self worth is entirely dependent upon the integrity of their conclusions, past and present.
Many gifted people can easily work out how to make the world a more sophisticated place (they think sufficiently). The smarter ones can tell us how to make it a simpler place (they think efficiently). Those smarter still have the task of making it a better place (they do both and employ wisdom).
The most intelligent I have perceived do secretive things and never advertise, they can be glimpsed behind the curtain, time to time, clad in black with strings descending from each finger. They may improve the world in ways but mostly I think they just play in it.
All of these individuals are vulnerable to irrational beliefs, some less likely depending upon how much scientific knowledge they must possess in order to express their gift. Creative genii often have little in the way of academic assets. And they are usually religious or 'spiritual'.
this is my very oversimplified and cursory classification of the génies I have observed, there are myriad mental capacities which can be exaggerated independently of other ones, often at the expense of other ones (like Kim Peek or Al Einstein) Renaissance wo/men are exceedingly rare. ultimately, we can only really gauge true genius by analyzing the total value of the contributions, usually after the fact.
Can a moron be a freethinker? Yes, so long as they never run afoul of a more charismatic moron with a bible, eg. moron and ex-free thinker Kirk Cameron.
-Cully
XPD
Yup! He is most definitely a moron. Crock-a-duck! Give me a break. All that did was show how little of Evolution he knows.
-Cully
This site is for exchristians, not for people in need of a lobotomy so they can continue to believe that some ancient amalgamated book of bad fairy tales was inspired by a god.
Growing In God With Cameron
http://www.candacecameronbure.net/
"Being good isn't good enough."
Great line! That would make a terrific first response to all xtians who come on this website preaching at us!
I ISSUE A CHALLENGE YOUR GOD HERE AND NOW! MAKE MY VISION 20/20 AND LEAVE A SIGNED STONE TABLET THAT HE DID SO AND I WILL CONTACT EVERY NEWS STATION I CAN WITH THE STORY. After all, I have been wearing glasses since I was a little girl so I have PROOF that my vision is horrid so it will be a true miracle if my vision is corrected.
Here's your chance, dearie. Prove to us that god is real. Give me a miracle!!
I don't think that all gifted people are so caught up in what others think of them that they will cling to their assertions in spite of evidence to the contrary. I think that only those with dependency issues would act that way. Most people capable of honest reason will realize when they are wrong and will change accordingly.
Or maybe the "religious" gifted are just fleecing the faithful for fun and profit. Remember: "A fool and his money are soon parted." and "There's a sucker born every minute."
OK how does one challenge something that doesn't even exist? Discordia, you've lost me now. *Mriana scratches head* I'm trying to keep up, really, but now even you have lost me.
I was just pointing out that I have documented proof that I have had to wear glasses for decades. Because of that proof, if my vision was to suddenly correct itself (something I am given to believe that cannot happen naturally) then there would be sufficient grounds to prove a genuine miracle, not just something that could possibly happen to anyone. Nearsightedness just doesn't 'go away' or 'fix itself.' Surgery cannot fix what is wrong with my eyes. Not with our current technology, at least. The only thing left is divine intervention and we both know THAT ain't gonna happen.
We do not need promises of paradise or threats of torment to be good and honorable people. We do not need religion as a reason to do kindness, we do it because we CAN. It is a choice, not a decree.
Imagine you know two people. One has to be bribed and threatened to do anything good and the other does good just because they can. Who is the better person? Who would you want at your side in times of trouble? We do not need bribes and threats. Why do you?
And because we want to, with no concern of any reward of punishment.
I didn't mean to imply that the obstinacy was always based upon other people's negative feedback, but instead upon the subject's own self estimation. I have noted that it is common for powerful minds, not necessarily effective ones to correlate their value as a person to the exactitude of any/all of their solutions when scrutinized by themselves or others. Not necessarily arguing dead positions in order to convince others, but to affirm their own validity to themselves. The ones I am referring to leave themselves little or no margin for human error and this inhibits ingeniosity. It is especially apparent in academically mighty individuals and in those who have been overpraised or pressured for outstanding performances from a young age, because they have expressed unusual capacities. The people who are doing the overpraising are usually misinformed and confuse acquired skill and knowledge with raw talent. A time honored recipe for insecurity and self doubt. Often leading to reflexive and in some cases pervasive denial of ordinary human fallibility as a defense mechanism against calamitous loss of self value. I hope that made sense, my brainbox is tired tonight.
As for the "religious gifted" I totally agree, some of these are most definitely the kind who don't advertise their true intellectual powers nor their motives. Wolves in shepherd's clothing so to speak.
-Cully
Who has surrounded Israel?
Quite simply, Bear. A physical variation starts as a random occurrence that may or may not provide an advantage to the entity that possesses it. For instance, a pseudopod that is slightly longer may permit an organism to move 0.001% faster than its fellows. A very small difference in structure may make escape swifter, or allow ingestion of more foodstuffs; therefore, the organism with the longer pseudopod may be in a better position to reproduce itself.
Repeat over millions of generations, and widely disparate organisms with different advantages and different predator/prey relationships will evolve.
In My opinion function follows form, not the other way around.
'Nudda one bites the crock-a-dust.
Ray and Kirk's creationist attacks on human knowledge are ridiculous to us, but for those innocents who have no basic scientific reading it's all quite persuasive. I honestly thought the crock-a-duck presentation was a comedy routine until I watched the incredulous reactions Kirk received.
The banana spiel was funny though, I wonder how many of their subscribers who saw that already knew that modern bananas barely even resemble their pre-domestication ancestors. Astonishingly poorly thought out and I hope they are deeply embarrassed by their video, especially since it is now youtubed and impossible to sweep under the carpet! heehee...
Thanks for the link.
-Cully
I'm getting sick with just the first sentence alone. Sounds almost as bad as chitlins.
So am I. Those people make me sick.
As far as your comment about god being on a bad acid trip and communicating through Ouija boards -- doesn't seem any more over the top than that ridiculous buybull they quote. ;-)
The best thing about haggis is this fact:
About 3 hours after eating a healthy portion (especially if washed down with three fingers of good Scotish Single Malt)......one can blow wind up his own kilt! (;D he he he !
XPD
ROFL! Now that is a sight.
The answer can be had at:
http://www.electricscotland.com/haggis/haggis1.html
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