Why does God hate me?
Sent in by Atheist RN
I am an atheist nurse, and I can honestly say that one of the saddest things that I have witnessed my patients say is, “Why does God hate me so much to give me this illness?” There are numerous Christian apologist answers to this question, of which I am sure many of you can recite chapter and verse, but what I really want people to understand is why belief is so detrimental to the health of a patient. Many people really believe that God is punishing them for some past misdeed. They take this to heart, and often wind up doing more harm to their condition by adding this additional mental stress. Did you know that this is actually considered diagnosable as a “Religious or Spiritual Problem”? See the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders” (DSM-IV-TR, code V62.89).
Although some people do seem to get comfort from believing that God healed them, what about the people who never go into a remission? That is, a terminally ill patient. The preachers say, “Oh well, it’s God’s will, and we can’t know the mind of God”. Or worse yet, they say things like, “Your suffering is God reminding you of how Christ suffered for you”. Furthermore, how many times have we heard someone on television say things like, “Thank God I survived that terrible accident, I know my family was praying for me.” If someone else in that same accident died, I have to wonder why did that person die if they had people praying for them too? In other words, why did God answer one prayer and not another’s? I thought Christianity taught that ALL prayer is answered.
Interestingly enough in nursing school we had a lecturer say that it was wonderful that a new study says that prayer works! She cited a study by Harvard University which showed a 17% increase in healing by the group that was prayed for. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html (Note: this was the study, but I can not find the statistics that my teacher quoted here. In fact, this article says that the prayed for patients actually fared worse.) Aside from the fact that you can’t control all the variables in the study, I thought that this was a pathetic attempt to rationalize the so-called efficacy of prayer, especially since we were also told that placebos have a 33% efficacy. This means that prayer does not work as well as a sugar pill.
I really wish there were seminars out there to help non-believing nurses, and doctors, learn how to circumvent this mental torture which our patients go through. If anyone out there has any suggestions, I’d sure love to hear them.
Atheist RN
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I am an atheist nurse, and I can honestly say that one of the saddest things that I have witnessed my patients say is, “Why does God hate me so much to give me this illness?” There are numerous Christian apologist answers to this question, of which I am sure many of you can recite chapter and verse, but what I really want people to understand is why belief is so detrimental to the health of a patient. Many people really believe that God is punishing them for some past misdeed. They take this to heart, and often wind up doing more harm to their condition by adding this additional mental stress. Did you know that this is actually considered diagnosable as a “Religious or Spiritual Problem”? See the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders” (DSM-IV-TR, code V62.89).
Although some people do seem to get comfort from believing that God healed them, what about the people who never go into a remission? That is, a terminally ill patient. The preachers say, “Oh well, it’s God’s will, and we can’t know the mind of God”. Or worse yet, they say things like, “Your suffering is God reminding you of how Christ suffered for you”. Furthermore, how many times have we heard someone on television say things like, “Thank God I survived that terrible accident, I know my family was praying for me.” If someone else in that same accident died, I have to wonder why did that person die if they had people praying for them too? In other words, why did God answer one prayer and not another’s? I thought Christianity taught that ALL prayer is answered.
Interestingly enough in nursing school we had a lecturer say that it was wonderful that a new study says that prayer works! She cited a study by Harvard University which showed a 17% increase in healing by the group that was prayed for. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html (Note: this was the study, but I can not find the statistics that my teacher quoted here. In fact, this article says that the prayed for patients actually fared worse.) Aside from the fact that you can’t control all the variables in the study, I thought that this was a pathetic attempt to rationalize the so-called efficacy of prayer, especially since we were also told that placebos have a 33% efficacy. This means that prayer does not work as well as a sugar pill.
I really wish there were seminars out there to help non-believing nurses, and doctors, learn how to circumvent this mental torture which our patients go through. If anyone out there has any suggestions, I’d sure love to hear them.
Atheist RN
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Comments
Also, just as you don't want to hear about their beliefs, keep yours to yourself if you end up around me or my family.
It is a patients right.
So you refuse to deal with any person who happens to be engaging in any sort of soul searching or reasoning? Even when it's out of a genuine plea for answers?
Wow.
Im so sorry for you
With people who are currently in a good-health regime, or who are just strong people generally, I don't fool around. But with people who are in a physically or mentally weakened state, I hesitate to take away their comfort talismans unless I'm positive that that's what would be the best for them. Even then, I'll let the first couple of opportunities go by, because I could be wrong, and the stakes are high.
With people who seem to want/need me to be on board with their religious leanings, I just say, "you're talking to the wrong person, I don't think that there is any god," and in that way, stating it as an opinion, it decreases the threat level to what may be keeping it together for them at the moment. They can just say to themselves, "well, I may be sick and weakened, but at least I'm not as far gone as that atheist moron." Later on, when/if they get stronger, we can take up the evidence, or just let it go.
From "Somewhere Down The Crazy River":
"...Take a picture of this/
The fields are empty, abandoned '59 Chevy/
Laying in the back seat listening to Little Willie John/
Yea, that's when time stood still/
You know, I think I'm gonna go down to Madam X/
And let her read my mind/
She said `That Voodoo stuff don't do nothing for me.'..."
I am just glad to have him as a grandfather, and I will cherish his memory.
The thought of him going to heaven maybe comforting to them, but it begs the question, why would God let him suffer?
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion no matter how satisfying and reassuring - Carl Sagan
Or maybe not.
The point is, she doesn't know. In fact, if she were to say things that caused the patient discouragement, thus weakening them, she could probably be sued.
Justifiably.
As for Binh, he has the right to tell the atheist nurse to stay away form him, just as you all would have the right to tell the bible toting nurse to stay away.
It's good to know that there are wonderful people like you in the nursing profession!
Where did the poster say that she does or says anything in response to her patients' spiritual musings? Where does she say that she keeps them or their families from praying for them, or tells them that prayer doesn't work? Or, even reveals her personal beliefs in the first place? As amazing as the concept might seem to you, maybe she doesn't. Wow, fancy that!
So, can we say "preconceived notions?"
If she is merely doing her job, then, there's no logic or base in demanding that she stay away from you if she should ever be working in your facility should you become ill.
So chill out, okay?
I am also in the medical profession, and what I think is interesting is that most of the time, a patient who comes in babbling in tongues and talking to jesus is immediately diagnosed as a psych admit. There is a fine, fine line between the 'baptism of the holy spirit' and psychosis, and I would say the line is so fine as to be invisible to nonexistant. In the church I used to attend, in fact, the more a person exhibited psychotic behavior, the more likely they were to end up being recruited for the prayer ministry.
I assume that you entered the profession to provide the best care possible and that you truly try your best to follow the Hippocratic oath (First, do no harm) as well as the positive side of that by providing the highest level of care possible; mental and physical.
In a society that has been fed such pablum virtually from birth how do you help the sick and dying know that they have not been "forsaken" by a capricious deity.
I think that while binh meant what s/he said, the converse is true too (for me anyway) just substitute Christian for atheist in the post.
I believe we are at a crossroads in the "whatever you want to think is fine" debate. I think that it is ok to drop subtle phrases the way Christians do that give the listener an opportunity to pursue it more with you, or just ignore the phrase.
For example, when someone asks you why they have been chosen to suffer and/or die, you could tell them that you don't believe that they were chosen for that at all and then stop there. That way, if they want to pursue that with you, you can tell them what you believe while maintaining sensitivity to their beliefs.
I agree that some form of seminar or class in dealing with the emotional side of suffering and death should be taught and that in a seminar/class like that that the issue of handling neurotic beliefs like Christianity should be covered in detail. I don't know of anything like that now, but I think the move toward that is inevitable.
I wish you the best in your search for answers in dealing with this difficult issue.
I wouldn't want someone with your attitude, theist or atheist, around me, thats for sure.
And ellytoad, I would agree with your answer to the extent that if she keeps her beliefs to herself, no problem.
But I don't want anyone pushing atheism on sick people any more than I want them pushing theism
Just do your fucking job.
So keep it in your pants.
I am deist but I would be also be delighted to be sereved under you. Actually I would prefer you than a bible toting nurse.
Peace!
Danny
To the atheist nurse,
I am deist but I would also be delighted to be served under you. Actually I would prefer you than a bible toting nurse.
Peace!
Danny
Yowzer! What a hard topic. I can relate. I am an atheist psychiatrist and I come across this issue all the time. I dont pretend to have the correct answer but here are some of the thoughts I have had about it over the years.
First, general priciples: you should never challenge a defense unless youre able to put something in its place. People believe these sorts of things not just because theye been taught to, they believe them because these beliefs serve some emotional function for them. In general, the belief that suffering is somehow deserved functions, weirdly, to enhance the persons sense of control and sense of being taken care of.
Therapists who work with abused children note that such children will commonly blame themselves rather than their parents. The logic seems to be: I am weak and vulnerable, and I know it. If my parent is really awful, then I am powerless and at their mercy. If it is my fault, at least there is something I can do: I can be better. I can find out what I am doing to deserve this and stop doing it.
I think suffering patients who blame themselves are doing something similar. It gives them some sense of efficacy -- better than the alternative, anyway, which is that there is no larger answer to "why." If they suffer because of sin, they have something to work on, namely, ferreting out their sin, really repenting, being a better CHristian.
Other Christian rationalizations have similar functions. Saying its God's inexplicable will seems to blame God and thus contradict what I just said, but remember that here the emphasis is different, for many CHristians also believe God will ultimately bring good out of bad. Again, the person is comforted (though by being taken care of, in this case, rather than being empowered to work on sin).
Either way, these beliefs -- which play a comforting role in their psychology even when things are going well -- are doubly "necessary" for them when they are ill, and scared, and in pain, which is of course when were are all at our worst and most needful of solace.
That said, what to do? Well, primum non necere (first, do no harm, for those unfamiliar with this term). Directly challenging these beliefs is almost certainly going to do more damage than good, however destructive these sorts of beliefs feel to us. Again, they are there for a reason; their psychology *needs* them, for now. And anyway, such a tact will most likely just alienate you from them. So, confrontation is out (Im not suggesting this is what you would do, but Im just being thorough).
I have found that it is more helpful to attempt to subtly "reframe" (as psychotherapists say) these beliefs into a more "benign" version. Suggesting, for example, a shift in focus from their sin to God's love will remain within thier framework and be more adaptive. I remember being told, when I was a Christian, that "God's will is not always done." This was a revelation for me, and, as far as I can tell, consistent with the theology. It opens up the possibility that you arent really being punished without suggesting that God isnt in charge, which would be scary for them. It keeps the possibility of Gods love and undermines the emphasis on sin. Of course, this presumes you could do this in clear conscience. I, myself, confess that I could not, as, beig an ex-christian, the focus on sin is just too triggering for me to even enter into imaginatively. And for me it feels dishonest to suggest something I not only disbelieve, but disbeleive rather strongly. But I know some former fundamentalists who yet remain generic theists or liberal Christians who feel comfortable doing this.
Another approach would be to elist the help of a friendly pastor or chaplain, whose focus will be soft, "gentle" and comforting, rather than root-out-the-sin. They are used to dealing with these sorts of questions, generally believe what they're syaing, and I have no problem recommending one to help someone through such a crisis of faith. I do this on the priciple of what helps this person the most. I myself belief a nontheistic belief-system is better -- but that is clearly my value, not the patients.
Finally, tried and true secular appraoches are not always out of place with theists and not necessarily in conflict with their values. Shifting the focus from "why" -- which, you could honestly admit, may be unanswerable -- to what they could do *now* to feel better is empowering and conducive to treatment. Teaching them relazation techniques, some cognitive restructuring, education about the disease all enchance a sense of control. And of course, as all good clinicians know, just listening to someones pain without trying to fix it is perhaps cliche' but nonetheless incredibly powerful.
That was longwinded and incomplete, but those are some preliminary thoughts. What a great question. How it helps!
That was really fascinating. I can't think of the last time I read such an informative post. Hope you stick around.
You are yet another christian that is all talk and little of what you preach. How dwells the love of christ in putzes like you. Your letter shows your true attitude. What a fake, what a phoney.
Thank you for your helpful and compassionate comment.
I have seen cases( such as my father who beame an christian shortly before his death) who took great strength and an almost erie calm in the face of devastating illness.
I've also seen the type of cases that the atheist nurse describes.
The difference, in those cases that I've observed seem to depend on the following; 1) the form of theism( for some reason catholicism seems the least comforting, followed by weird little pentacostal sects).
2) the pyschological profile of the individual( how neurotic are they). 3) the nature of the illness. The greater the pain or debilitation involved in the course of the illness the more likely I've found them to wonder what they have done to deserve this.
For athiests or agnostics in similar situations I've seen a responses that varied from stoicism, to bitterness( mostly over missed oportunities)and everthing in between. Again the main differences are the nature of the illness, and the psych profile of the individual.
Ray
I hope that when my time comes that I find someone as wise as Richard to handle my case.
I knew at that point that she was good as dead.
In all fairness, she was beyond help, maybe the sawbones thought he was comforting us.
And all you various anonymous trolls here today?
Get. Stuffed.
The Christian believes there is a purpose to life, and there is hope. After all, anyone can join God's side at any time, whatever their record.
Humanity is seldom so forgiving.
All the atheist can say is that this is all there is, and your suffering is all for nothing.
Further, as a patient, I do not have to have an atheist nurse spouting philosphy around me if I don't want to.
So long as she, or he, shuts up about her beliefs, its probably all right, unless they are one of the type of people who post here and despise believers.
In which case, I don't trust her and don't want her around anyway.
Patients have rights.
Your pathetic and weak. Cant handle fighting one on one so just attack a website... how weak...
This website is great and all the support it gives people. Your not!
Someoe is sharing their concerns not talking about what they do. Dont come on here and presume to know what their motives or actions are when they are not clearly stated. If you want to prove a point, dont be an ass... if you want even a semblance of opportunity for conversion then got off your high horse and show "God's Love"...
Meanwhile, I do think we should tread lightly around sick people with faith problems. They have problems enough as is.
And... sigh... Emanuel Goldstein offering another nugget of his particular brand of wisdom. Bob help him if he ever loses his precious faith. What a thud that will be.
And isn´t it special how he seems to think atheists would be wrong to inflict their ideas on others, when he has no problem whatsoever doing the same to us?
-Leonard
Also, just as you don't want to hear about their beliefs, keep yours to yourself if you end up around me or my family.
It is a patients right".
Hey binh:
Who shit in your cornflakes?
I don't think she was trying to take any rights away from patients. It seems to me that people like you have already lost your rights because "the giant toad under your back porch" already tells you what to say and think.
I hope you get to read this,
because I think you are a f*****g idiot.
.
Likewise with colleagues. There is one nurse on my ward who's a devout Christian - and this is Scotland, so it's not such a common thing as it is in the USA - she knows I'm an atheist, but that's as far as it goes. We just don't talk religion, and the workplace remains harmonious.
I don't think it'd due the patient any damage to tell them you are unable to answer the question, and would be glad to find someone who they can ask.
Cheers
And, don't you know you're not supposed to take your lord's name in vain? as in "Jeebus Crisco, why do you atheists have to make things so difficult?"
Naughty naughty...
But to answer your question, because we question everything, not taking it on "faith", which I have heard defined as "Believing in something you KNOW is wrong in the first place".
Judging from some of the comments I have received to my posting, I feel that I should provide some clarification.
At NO time do I push my beliefs on anyone, patient or otherwise. I think proselytizing (Atheist, Christian, or other religion) is morally wrong, especially to someone who is a patient.
I made the erroneous assumption that those reading my posting would understand a nurse’s position. That is, it’s NOT about the nurse’s personal agenda -- It’s about what I can do to help my patients. I will let my patient hold my hand and pray, if that is what they want me to do. I have no problem being silent as my patient prays, and for those awkward times when I am asked directly what my “faith” is, I usually reply, “It’s not important what I believe, but it is important WHAT YOU BELIEVE”.
Furthermore, I usually ask patients who ask me “Why does God hate me?” if they would like a chaplain consult, but I have just felt that this is not always an adequate solution, and was, therefore, looking for other ideas.
Many thanks, Richard -- I had not considered the angle you presented. Would you ever consider giving a seminar (with CEUs of course!) that would address this topic?
Atheist Nurse
"The very question about "why does God hate you" is loaded"
---
Goldstein,
I disagree with your statement. It's quite a relevant question, in fact.
A god who loved his creation wouldn't kill them in a heartbeat for dumb reasons (see OT), nor would he burn them in hell for an eternity.
Such actions don't come from love but HATE, so if one assumes there is a god who is suppose to take care of each human and that human is suffering and god doesn't intervene, it's a natural self-assumption that either god doesn't care or he hates that person, or both.
>After all, anyone can join God's side at any time, whatever their record.<
And we can all join the side of the bigfoot believers to.
In both cases, it's all imaginary stuff and wishful thinking and you can't prove otherwise, now can you?
AtheistToothFairy
IMHO, you have brought up points that deserve further discussion.
I would add that people like binh are close-minded and cannot see the forest for the trees when the trees are right before them.
Please continue to post.
I've heard Bible believing people say "he must have done something really bad in his life to get cancer". I personally wouldn't want someone judging my family member and equating their illness with sinning or even going to hell.
I'd much rather have a nurse who says I don't believe you are hated. I don't believe someone has to label themself to do that. All they have to be is a compassionate individual.
Let the Christians and the preachers be the asses. Let them explain to the person how it's God's will that they suffer and die, that they are a horrible individual and that they are going to Hell. What a comforting conversation that is.
Why have atheists let this happen?
Sure, Fundies may talk about the end of the world...but science has mad it a real possibility.
Why have they let this happen?
And to the annonymous post about the nuclear weapons and athiest's being responsible for them. where do you get this information?
Should you find yourself in need of surgery or some kind of medication, ask yourself this. "What are the chances that my doctor or the chemists who created or discovered my medication are atheists?" You can refuse care at this point, and good riddance to you.
"Why have atheistic scientists...Dawkins tells us most scientists are atheists...filled the world with nuclear weapons.
Why have atheists let this happen?"
Why have christian's let this happen? Scientists did not fill the world with a-bombs. God fearing politicians, elected by god fearing people who are terrified of what will happen if an atheist (GASP) gets into office, filled the world with a-bombs. Politicians who very carefully and publicly expounded on their relationship with jesus in order to con votes out of the gullible. Elected officials who caved into demands from the christian right who believe that if all Americans are armed to the teeth, then we are a safer America.
Christians are the majority in this country and historically, always done their best to insure that the elected are just like them. Then they have they nerve to blame the resultant problems on atheists as a group, conveniently forgetting that even as large group, approaching 50 million by the latest estimates, we have almost no political power. What little we did have has been recently curtailed by a very christian Supreme Court.
Perhaps we should return to those righteous days when undesirables were made to sit at the back of the bus. Perhaps we should be forced to wear IPU or FSM emblems so that the pious will know us (and know what bathrooms we should be using).
Dear Atheist RN,
I understood what you were saying and asking. Unfortunately, when you post here, you have to expect the attacks from christians who are trolling so fast that they barely have the time to read, must less understand the topics that we discuss. They strike and then they move on to the next website, blog, what-have-you. They’re seeking instant gratification from their actions, a form of masturbation and most likely never read our responses to them, but we will continue to make them as they provide insight to each other’s thought processes.
You stated in your response to some of the more questionable posts that you felt like the patients talking to a chaplain was not enough. Now I am not a care giver so please forgive me if I ask a stupidly obvious question. Could it be when the patient is asking “Why does god hate me” that they are really asking “Am I alone”? Such patients are afraid (who wouldn’t be during such a time) and are probably looking for comfort and support. When they were healthy, they would be able to find such in their religion as they would be able to twist circumstances and coincidences to suit their emotional desires. But when they lay there dying, they are no longer able to do that.
This is a hard situation for you, but I don’t think it is because you are an atheist. I think the problem is that there is no common frame of reference. Try as we might, until we ourselves are in their situation, we can no idea what they are feeling. We can tell ourselves that yes, they are afraid, but we little comprehension.
I do know this: anytime a nurse has assuaged my fears, they did without mentioning god. So there are ways. I just wish I had the professional experience to you what they are.
I also know that I would be happy and proud to have a nurse like you, who quite obviously feels the pain of her patients, at my bedside.
Thank you for your heartfelt post.
As an agnostic, if I were sick or injured in the hospital, I would NEVER hesitate to accept the care of ANY nurse employed there, even a passionate fundamental Christian believer.
I guess binh is fortunate enough to live in an area that doesn’t have a chronic nursing shortage. Must be nice!
And that was a really excellent post from Richard the atheist psychiatrist, I really hope you hang around!
Binh: you are in idiot.
I can just see it now: a pious Biblethumper with diabetes or some other weight-related illness sitting in an examination room, a nurse taking their temperature and blood pressure, when all of a sudden the patient DEMANDS to know what the nurse's belief is.
A Christian focusing on things that don't matter? Scandalous!
It seems clear to me that it is CHRISTIANS that do not want to co-exist. At least the ones posting here. The ex-Christians here are well-versed in my strong feelings against Christianity (including liberal Christianity), yet I have no problem co-existing with the many, many Christians where I work. Perhaps because where I work is a large company that ha syet to be taken over by a religious psychopath. Regardless, one of my best friends where I work is an ardent Christian, with Christian tattoos covering his entire body. Yet he and I get along famously; most people where I work will ask one of us where the other is when one of us is out. Just another example of the willingness of some people to co-exist, and the bigotry of religious lunatics like Binh.
I am an atheist xray tech. I work in a large very busy hospital. I think I provide my patients with as much compassion as humanly possible. The most important thing I have learned over the years is just to listen. So many heath care professionals will tune out the concerns of the dying patient and put it in professional get the job done mode. I have listened to the fears of many dying patients. Athough I don't spend as much time with any given patient as a nurse, I do see the same very ill people day in and day out and get to know many of them. The fact that I don't believe in an invisible man in the sky plays no role in my patient care.
If someone gives me the "Why Me?" line, I hit them with the absolute truth. I say, "Life is not fair and it never will be and it doesn't matter who you are."
Ironically I have more patients who leave me with a "May God Bless You," than I can count. I politely offer my most sincre thank you.
xrayman
I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best.
So, I am sorry, but I am uncomfortable with them and afraid of them.
I know that is wrong, but as much as health care costs my family, its just not something I have to put up with.
But my best wishes in your search.
"Frankly, I don't want an atheist health care professional treating me.
I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best."
That statement and attitude, my dear moronic poster, harkens back to the 60s and prior. How many years did the blacks, asians and latins have to listen to such incredibly ignorant and bigoted remarks (and still do in some locals)? And here you are, spouting the same hateful drivel.
My parents raised me to believe that bigots are just plain stupid, uneducated or both. So you can guess what I think of you!
I wonder how some of these Christian posters would feel if the medical staff was Mormon, or Jehovah Witness, or Moonie, or Muslim, or Catholic, or Seventh Day Adventist, or Backslidden, or only nominally Christian, or not a "True Christian™."
People are people, Christians.
What retards.
I really don't believe you are for real. Something tells me you are being a wiseguy. But I do want to make a point and say one of the most devout Christian doctors in my department can be the most unconpassionate asshole in the world.
xrayman
Yeah, and I thought God was no respecter of persons.
Plus why did God fix this one person's marriage but, he didn't fix the other person's marriage?
I thought God once again was no respecter of persons, and he had no favorites.
Plus God hates divorce, however he still will not answer that one person's prayer by restoring their marriage. This happened to someone else I knew in the past who served Jesus for many years as a faitful christian, and still God "Who hates divorce" allowed their spouse to walk out on them.
You are right Webmaster. A lot of these christians are retards, of course we shouldn't be too surprised, because Jesus taught christians to follow his example because Jesus was a retard himself.
"Frankly, I don't want an atheist health care professional treating me.
I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best."
Good, maybe more of you christians will feel that way, and you will all get sick and leave this world for good.
I have been thinking about this issue for a couple of days now and have had another thought or two. I work part of the time in a rural clinic in Texas so I routinely treat a lot of highly religious (and conservative) people. Most of the time, their religiousity is not at all an impediment to anything, and usually in fact seems to be a source of strength for them, if for no more reason than it imbeds them in their community. So, usually, I let their faith be whatever it is and focus on what I know, which is to employ more earthly means (all the things psychotherapy does)to help them, and almost always the two are not in conflict. There is no reason why one may not believe in God and yet come to recognize that, by golly, I *am* mad at my sister after all for what she did and I *do* tend to focus excessively on my health when I get anxious.
That said, there have been a few people Ive treated whose religion really is toxic to them. They dont know it, and I dont say that, but its clear that it is maladaptive, prevents them from growing, alienates them from potential help, and beats down their self esteem. I have had people tell me through gritted teeth that they are indeed *not* angry because they are a Christian and have handed the fact of their husbands abusiveness over to God and thats then end of it. The belief systems of such patients are all but impenetrable and do not respond or soften much no matter what I do.
For a long time this really bothered me. I felt as though these had been treatment failures. Then, I realized something: these folks almost always end treatment *thankful* for how much theyve gotten out of it. In other words, they really do get better. Their religiosity is just as dense and defensively-driven as ever, yet they seem really to feel better.
I say this to highlight something that others have touched on too: never underestimate the raw power of human empathy. Having someone to talk to about whats bothering you (even when you deny anything at all is bothering you) and being listened to without criticism or judgment or having someone trying to make them feel better is an amazing experience. *Especially* in fundamentalist cultures where literally everything you think or feel or do is saturated in moral valence, being listened to and having ones feelings accepted uncritically can be a very new experience. Empathy is deeper than, and cuts under, every theology.
This shouldnt surprise us, I dont think. We are able to feel joy and pain and fear and warmth and intimacy long before we can talk, and much longer before we can theologize. We are literally wired for sharing our emotions. It isnt always a satisfying response to us in the medical world who usually want something to *do* to help our patients, but I do think we need to remember (I have to remind myself this all the time) that there is little as precious or as moving as being listened to and understood. It sounds touchy-feely, but its true. Being really heard is a rare experience for many people and I have seen many people weep when they first feel it. (One slightly cynical observer suggested that all the stuff that goes on in psychotherapy, all the insights and interpretations and homework etc, just provides something for the therapist and patient to talk about while the relationship itself heals.)
So, atheist nurse, I think a lot of time you dont need to have a deep reply when someone asks you why God hates them. You should mainly listen, and if you can, talk to them about what theyre feeling. Help them sort it out. It can be really liberating just to be able to say whats behing their question. Someone asked if "does God hate me" mean "am I alone" -- maybe, the meanings to these things are always individual, but to me it sounds angry. For your patient to be able to verbalize anger at God without you recoiling in horror at such a blasphemy -- i.e., to "normalize" that feeling -- would be (pardon the inappropriate pun) a Godsend for them.
So, just hear them; you dont necessarily have to try to soften the defense. It will probably soften on its own in time (defenses are always most rigid in acute stress). Or, to say it another way, just by listening and being empathic and showing an interest in what theyre feeling can soften the defense. I guarantee you, if you really listen empathically, you will be the one person they remember from the hospital (or whereever you work).
Sorry for the long winded reply. The world is shades of grey to me. I am a shrink rather than a surgeon, after all.
Richard
"...We are literally wired for sharing our emotions...."
That line jumped right out at me. Very true statement. I remember once sitting in a loud pub, with people chattering away and billiard balls clacking and video games beeping etc etc etc. And way off in the distance was a jukebox playing "First We Take Manhattan" by Jennifer Warnes, with guitar fills by Stevie Ray Vaughn. By comparison to the virtual white-noise racket going on in the bar, the volume of the song was less than whisper volume. And yet I heard it and seized right on it. I remember thinking, "I'd have heard that at any volume."
A line by the same songwriter who wrote the song just mentioned goes, "...they are leaning out for love/ And they will lean that way forever..."
The constant conflicting monkey-chatter that makes up the mental state of a fundamentalist religionist, whatever the religion, is a parallel with the racket in the pub that night. But we exist on many levels simultaneously, and there is always an audience for elegance, or just sense at at least one of those levels at any given moment.
The point? No point, really. Just that I agree that a patient could come out of a session feeling better and with their defences softened in spite of the fact that their dogma has to all appearances resisted all efforts to cut through it. The eons have invested more in building up that organism than the organism has invested in trying to undermine itself.
I hope you post on other topics. I like your insights.
I hear similar statements from even young people when it comes to their own health, or the health of their children, or even work issues: Why isn't God blessing me?
What surprises me is that these people abrogate responsibility for their own health and wealth and think the results they are getting are based on God's giving or withholding blessings. Their kids are sick all the time and they wonder why, when in fact they are feeding their kids junk food all the time with tons of sugar and very few vitamins and minerals or fiber.
Another example is getting laid off from a construction site because the work is finished and wondering why a new job isn't magically given to them through God's blessings, instead of them going out and proactively looking for a job.
And If something does go well, they'll give God all the credit.
They don't seem to have a concept of sowing and reaping, even though that is covered quite well in the Bible by Jesus.
This kind of thought process is also very sad to me and I suspect these same people will be asking why God hates them when they are terminally ill too. And it gets passed on from generation to generation, and I don't know how to step in and intervene. :-(
I agree strongly with this approach. Nurses should provide the best care they can and not attempt to impose their opinions on the people they care for.
Nerissa Belcher
If you feel up to the task, I'd be curious to know how an "Omnipotent God" would ever be in a position where it couldn't "do more". Since you have an apologetic for why an "Omnipotent God" might let human beings might be raped and tortured..i.e..perhaps he or she is a "free spirit", them I'm sure you can reconcile (in your own mind) why an all powerful God would "PUSSY OUT" when the suffering need help.
' Listening.
Yeah, that is just a sick way to think. That god would torture somone's child to get them to wake up and smell the coffee [or should I say the fire and brimstone?]. Why not just admit that the god of the Bible is a sad, sick bastard.
Don't pussy out from the real questions in life and grow some empathy and real love. You see, when you really love somebody you don't rape and torture them or even slap them around a little.
You forgot another group: Those who don't believe a god exists. You can't hate a fictional character. I don't hate Bible God any more than I hate Darth Vader or The Joker or the Bogie Man or any other villain invented by the minds of humans.
You poor, sad, thing. Apparently, you think there are only two colors, too: black and white. And you take fiction for reality. I would not want to go through life with your way of thinking. You miss out on so much.
I hope you actually start to ask questions and stop letting an ancient book of mythology spoil your life.
he gives you trails to strenghten you
"God is there no matter what. and if you believe He WILL answer... perhaps though not in the way you would like."
"he gives you trails to strenghten you"
Melissa,
I respectively ask that you relate to us an example of one of Gods answers to one of your requests. I am always eager to hear about God in action.
Dano
Can you see just how biased your reply is?
You have basically said that, however god responds, whether he takes away your pain immediately, takes it away in a month, never takes it away OR makes it a hundred times worse, he has still answered your prayer.
What I seriously need to know is why this is any different from praying to Santa, Satan or the blue and white milk jug?
Ah, perfect...so, let's see, "God" will help the already-convinced, but won't lift a finger to help those who aren't convinced. 'Funny how that works, isn't it?[/rhetorically asked]
Almost everyone I know once believed in Santa Claus but they grew out of it and do not hate Santa Claus as a result.
You are indulging in a false dichotomy by insisting that people either love god or hate him. This presupposes that
1. god exists
2. Everyone believes in god.
You use this flawed reasoning to justify your attempt to belittle your readers when you suggest they are not "man enough" to admit something you want them to admit, despite the fact that you have no support for your assertion.
You need to get out more, and meet more people, in order to discover other sorts of people, as there are people out there who do not fall into your simplistic classification.
If you cannot get out for any reason, you need to start reading more widely than merely your bible. There is a real world out there and it is your duty to participate in it for your own good AND that of others.
Whatever you do, please begin to consider that there is possibly more to life than what appears between genesis and revelation and that you caoont possibly make informed decisions without finding some of it out.
If you cannot, or will not do any of this then there really is no hope for you and we would not miss your contributions were you never to come back.
Peace,
David
Good grief, and just what do you think "scripture" is?
News flash: the bible is a man-made document. "God" didn't pen the bible; man did, and thus, you are trusting man to tell you what "God" says.
"I've only been a believer for going on 3 years and it's been really hard but my life is changed because I've encountered unselfish, merciful, love."
That you believe something and it has changed your life is not evidence of anything except that you believe something and it has changed your life. Tom Cruise *believes* "Dianetics" has *changed* his life. Is that a good reason to run out and buy a copy of Dianetics? The two "Elders"(ages 20 and 22) at my door yesterday *believe* the Book of Mormon has *changed* their lives. Should have I sat down and studied their literature, as opposed to tossing it in the trash?
Uh... What part of EX-Christian do you not understand? Some of us were believers for several decades, and the vast majority of us are indeed familiar with scripture.
We just don't believe that it has much of a bearing on reality.
That'll be one (1) Talking Snake™, please.
You are a babe in arms.
Your conceit in coming here and preaching to people who were believers for 10, 20, 40 years, even, would be absolutely unbelievable were it not for the cat that you are a True Believer.
You know nothing, have experienced less and are in thrall to a non-existent god.
We have all sought answers in what you call scripture and found that they are only there if you are prepared to ignore more than half of what is in there. Even then, as your god is no more real than Zeus, Thor or Poseidon, and answers are useless.
Wake up and live your life before any more is taken from you by the death cult you are involved with.
Peace,
David
"Oh, maybe God sent those three men to brutally torture my friend's sister so she wouldn't get sent to hell." Did you have a previous life as an Inquisitor? How far will you take that thought process to protect your faith? Maybe God lets priests rape little boys so those boys won't go to hell? Does God make infants starve to death so they wont go to hell? (And we simply have to overlook the fact that infants are much too young to engage in any cognitive process at their age.)
Looks like God just FORGOT that he sent Jesus to take away any reason for people to not get into heaven so there is no reason to heap suffering onto those for whom Jesus has already paid for. And I suppose, also, that those three sickos will get special seating in Heaven for following God's orders so you be sure to give each of them a great big hug and a kiss for butchering a still-living woman and eating parts of her so that she could fully understand the infinite love of God.
Psalms 137:9: Happy shall be he who taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” (The Bible says that it is a good thing to kill the infants of enemies by smashing their skulls against rocks. Can't you feel the love?)
Numbers 31: 17-18 “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” (That means they were to keep the prisoners-of-war, little virgin girls, for some evening fun in bed. Divinely ordained pedophilia--doesn't that just make you feel good knowing your God gave the OK for little girls to be raped? Ah, the sweet mercy of the Lord!)
Hosea 13: 16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (God is cool with abortion and infanticide and obviously doesn't care that infants are incapable of thinking and therefore of sinning... or is their 24-7 need for care break the Sabbath because they are 'forcing' their mothers to work??)
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
“God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.”– (God sends lies to deceive people so that he will have an excuse to send them to hell. Praise God and his justice!)
2 Samuel 24:16
The Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, it is enough: stay now thine hand. (God felt bad for being evil.)
Like your namesake, your mind's growth is constrained by the binding of religion. You will never know your potential until you remove yourself from your mental pot and grow free.
Sure, God can heal someone of an illness but honestly... why should he? What does God owe us? He gives us life and beauty and we all continually spit in his face. God could let us all die and it really would be just but the fact that he may spare some rather than none is incredibly merciful since he doesn't have (and really shouldn't) spare any.
This logic doesn't make sense to most people but it doesn't matter because it's just the way it is.
ps.... a good nurse is going to be honorable of any persons religion no matter what it is
With an attitude like that, you have no business in nursing. Seriously. Your religious beliefs have bankrupted you morally, to the point where you try to defend the indefensible.
If you somehow succeed in graduating, and you ever cause even one your patients emotional distress by inflicting your mythological biases upon them, may you be fired with cause... And may you be unable to find work in the medical profession until you fully understand how to separate your beliefs from your work life.
We need good medical professionals, AHM. We most certainly do *not* need people who cannot separate mythology from reality.
God Bless, Scout a special needs child
Also, just as you don't want to hear about their beliefs, keep yours to yourself if you end up around me or my family.
It is a patients right.
Sometimes it feels like I walked in a movie half over. My guess is God would do more if he could. If he really saved me from a hell I deserved, I win anyway.
A buddy of mine had a sister that was raped, TORTURED for a day and a half and then she finally died. Her breasts were removed and eaten. How's that for some sick bastards.(three in all) I really had some questions about that. I'm sure she screamed out for help, were was God?
Latter I learned she was a little bit of a free spirit (not that I'm saying she earned this)---I'm not a jag. The ones I spoke too that knew her, thought there was no way she had any love for God. I didn't get it until I had my own daughter.
That kid keep reaching for the stove with the flame on--reach-en for hot skillets. I would give my life for that kid but man I would take that hand and smack it hard! FOLLOW ME HERE-DON'T PUSSY OUT. She learned after that but if she didn't I would have let her burn her self a little on a pan or something if it would have saved her from burning herself a real hot pan or flame or God forbid catch fire or something.
If a day and a half of torture would save her from hell, he would do it. Or maybe it may take someone's parents facing some real hard times just to get something threw your head, (that's you here) he would do it to save who he could.
He doesn't push our heads under the water, he is the one throwing the lifesaver. We can't have it both ways. Don't push the preserver away and then blame him when we drowned.
With that said I don't understand why he does what he does or why he doesn't do what he doesn't do. Here is one thing I have come to know for sure. Almost everyone-(everyone I ever met) believes in God. There really are only two groups, the ones like him anyway and the ones that hate him. Be man enough to call it what it is.
I have bin in both.......
I am also in the medical profession, and what I think is interesting is that most of the time, a patient who comes in babbling in tongues and talking to jesus is immediately diagnosed as a psych admit. There is a fine, fine line between the 'baptism of the holy spirit' and psychosis, and I would say the line is so fine as to be invisible to nonexistant. In the church I used to attend, in fact, the more a person exhibited psychotic behavior, the more likely they were to end up being recruited for the prayer ministry.
Your statement is only true if one assumes that the bible god were real.
Because this bible god is only a mythical creature, then we must say that the mythical god portrayed in the bible, is an asshole.
No Steve, he doesn't have any power, for to have power, a thing must exists first.
ATF
FUCK YOU MUSLIM LIFE HATING BASTARDS. WHY DO YOU KILL
INNOCENT PEOPLE!!! GOD WILL SEND ALL YOUR PEOPLE TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG!!!
HAIL AND BLESS GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!
Everyone of us has felt this deep horrible pain and everyone of us have asked why are doing this to me god, why?
Sure you can go to the bible and decipher parts of it make it seem like there is some sort of answer there, but it is truly a riddle.
Why is there so much hatred in the world? Why does god allow it?
Someone please answer this very simple questions.
Everyone of us has felt this deep horrible pain and everyone of us have asked why are doing this to me god, why?
Sure you can go to the bible and decipher parts of it make it seem like there is some sort of answer there, but it is truly a riddle.
Why is there so much hatred in the world? Why does god allow it?
Someone please answer this very simple questions.
(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Exodus 4:11"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"
It seems clear from the Bible that God has no problem whatsoever with co-existing with esuffering or evil.
THEN he/she/it will, knowing that I am a sceptical being - his/her/its creation, make this fact known unequivocally so that I might be assured of his/her/its love and escape the eternal punishment he/she/it has created for me to enjoy otherwise.
I await the unequivocal proof of his/her/its creativity and love.
Bronze age collections of myth and fraudulent Constantinian 'holy writ' do not constitute unequivocal proof of anything except, perhaps, the folly and gullibility of mankind.
Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
2Ki 6:33 And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?
Ec. 7:14 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of "adversity" consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.
Which can easily be translated with:
(The Contemporary English Bible)
Ec. 7:14 When times are good be happy but when times are bad think what it means. God made both to keep us from knowing what will happen next.
Furthermore,
The Hebrew word for "adversity" is [r or Ra' meaning:
adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
God -- according to the good book -- is responsible for all the calamities and evil, in the world. The supposition that god is all-loving, is contradicted by the bible-god, who is psychotic, disturbed, and an evil, megalomaniac, who uses terrorist threats, genocide and infanticide, to rule the world.
--S.
Your 'vantage' point you ask these questions from, is all skewed, therefore you'll never find the answers from where you presently stand.
Just for a moment, remove any god from the equation and then perhaps you might come to realize that all bad things "just happen" and there is no god who "allows it".
Bad things from nature happen mindlessly and without any intellect behind them.
Human hatred is simply just part of the human animal and will vary in type and intensity for many reasons, some inherited and some from life's experiences.
However, combine hatred with religion and you have one heck of a formula for disaster.
ATF
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