Take the Christian QUIZ!
Posted by Brett Keane
OnelessGod is a YouTube friend of mine: an awesome atheist who never fails to make great points.
OnelessGod is a YouTube friend of mine: an awesome atheist who never fails to make great points.
These articles were published between January 2001 and February 4, 2010.
To view more recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
Comments
Onelessgod, you've helped me realize why I am on exchristian.net every day. The suffering and ignorance propagated by religion is inexcusable and for me at this point is the greatest cause of the world's misery.
How can people be so blind?
Naomi
Which is more likely?
1)You have all the answers.
2)You have none of the answers.
3)You have more questions than answers.
Sorry, but the only thing obvious from your quiz, is you lack an understanding of the bigger picture... but it is good that you are asking questions.
4) We have some of the answers, and until we know what we don't know yet, we say "I don't know", and in the mean time, continue to objectively search for truth, while seeking to abolish legendary thinking at the same time.
If you can first agree to the concept of there being something more than eye can see...The reason I can is because I have hear from the outside.
I don't want you to stretch uncomfortably or anything, but, the earth wasn't flat and the moon made of green cheese either.
Then, by that concession, you would have to conclude also that because that makes for a bigger truth than anyone limited to the smaller picture, that you can't have all the answers.
Then, the only possible way to know anything more than that which is with in our grasp, is for it to come-in-to-us, i.e. from God.
History has recorded many witnesses to this phenomena in what we know as the Bible. And, yes, I "know" that to be true...it takes one to know one.
Otherwise, it's all green cheese -- or whatever you want to believe...
I like your #4 comment... I don't think it is wise to dismantal it all until the verdict is in however... but, believe me, I would like to do away with a big chuck of it myself --- admittedly, a lot of it is a bunch of crap.
(Sorry, I'm having to rush through these last two comments._
"I don't want you to stretch uncomfortably or anything, but, the earth wasn't flat and the moon made of green cheese either."
But yet that was all the Bible writers knew for certain, that the Earth was flat and that the Earth was the center of the universe.
And then they had the gall to say that they knew the mind of God.
Sure, there's something "out there" but from our position in space and our limited ability to explore very far, what's out there, is currently unknowable to humans.
No one has an authority to tag the unknowable as a god, without suffecient proof, unless you can provide some evidence outside words written down in a book.
Tizso, please do not keep us in suspence, share with us your proof, we're waitng.
I'm sorry, and correct me if I'm wrong, but by the looks of the comments to Jim Arvo, the implication is that the "verdict" is, in fact, "in"...that "verdict" being, in the form of a 2000 yr old manuscript known to Christians, as the "Holy bible".
If this is the "verdict", well, I, as well as many, can no longer accept this document as a universal objective "Truth". Furthermore, "Christians", themselves, cannot even agree on just what this "Truth" entails.
There are dozens and dozens of reasons how and why we've become non-christians, and if you read some of the articles here on EX-christian.net, you'll have a better idea of how we came to be skepitcal of such subjective religious beliefs. Hint: The same way you are skeptical of all others but your own.
Hope this helps.
Now, let's examine your claim you possess knowledge from the "outside". Did that information come to you through your senses, or by some other means? Did it just pop into your head as a fully-formed concept, for example? How do you know where that message came from? In particular, how do you know it originated from outside your very own brain? And if it originated from an invisible entity, how can you rule out Satan? After all, I hear he's a very clever guy.
You mentioned that "history" has recorded many "witnesses" to... what? To, god communicating with man? I think that's what you were referring to. I agree completely! For example, the Book of Mormon has on its second page two letters that were signed by three witnesses and eight witnesses, respectively. They attest to the fact that Joseph Smith received golden tablets directly from god via the angel Moroni; this contained god's word verbatim (which now constitutes the bulk of the Book of Mormon). Then there was the angel Gabriel who dictated the Koran to Mohammed, which is a bit less direct than physical tablets, but still quite impressive I think. Those are the types of historical events you are talking about, right? If you have something else in mind, please be specific, and we can discuss what evidence there is for such a communication being from an invisible deity. Okay?
Oh, and I really like the video too. Methinks it's generating some palpable cognitive dissonance among the "faithful".
boomSLANG: I say, until the verdict is in, as a manner speaking, in that it can not be in for those who have nothing to go by – well, until they do.
I agree the Bible is a strange and confusing representation of truth per say. However, it is for good reason. That being, it was intended to confound as well as enlighten, much like the little squiggly code that is required here to post a comment. But, as you say, some Christians –because they only possess fragments of the greater truth (and are foolish) and, therefore only make matters worse.
And, I for one do not blame you for your skepticism. I think it’s a sign of intelligence, not to dismiss the fact that it comes with a responsibility.
Thanks.
Arvo: Seeing the difference between “thinking” and “knowing” indeed is critical to “understanding” what is really true. I am glad that you see that, and that being wrong is a possibility, regardless of how much you actually do “know” short of the whole truth.
As for testing something exceptional, well, as you know, thus far we have all been unable to convey it. I suppose it would be like proving “love,” what can be said more than words, what can be offered more than ones life – none of that has worked.
The test, you see, is not our part – we are but the subjects of the test…and that clever guy you mentioned, he has his part too.
My witness, and my personal verification of what has been recorded throughout history, came as what could be described as an out of body experience. You could say, I was at the end of my physical realm (self). Lets just say the “me” that normally resides in my body –had left the building. Although I don’t recommend it, I had, in fact, challenged God to answer….and He did. No fooling.
I found myself above the earth, where I was shown –not told—my answer. It wasn’t until much later that I even understood it. You see, my answer was given to me in the very same language as the metaphors that people make fun of in the Bible. When I read it – I was shocked, and discovered that the authors – were one and the same! ---Things I didn’t know—I couldn’t know; things no one could have connect between me, my experience, and what is written. –I sure couldn’t—and it was just me, at the end of myself. I had never read the Bible before – there’s just no other explanation!
It isn’t the kind of proof you’re looking for---I’m not sure it was what I was looking for--- hell, it’s a burden. But, now, I can’t say “I think”, or “I believe” because I know better…
You are equivocating. You are implying that the "Truth" for all of man-kind "to go by" is in fact the Christian Bible, but then generalizing when saying that the "verdict can't be in" for those who have "nothing to go by". The Muslims have something "to go by"....but I'll bet you'll say their Holy book is not "Truth", won't you?(Rhetorical)
I agree the Bible is a strange and confusing representation of truth per say. However, it is for good reason. That being, it was intended to confound as well as enlighten, much like the little squiggly code that is required here to post a comment.
Irrelevant conclusion. First of all, such codes are most certainly not left open to interpretation. If an English speaking person sees the word verification code "FhdtS", then there's no misinterpreting it, otherwise, you can't post("be enlightened"). Moreover, if you assert that the Bible is "intended to confound", then obviously, you shouldn't be too damned shocked if I suggest that maybe you have been "confounded", and are lightyears away from "Truth". But of course, being a former Christian myself, I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that you, Tizso, think that you have the one "True" interpretation, and it is in fact those who disagree with your beliefs who are "confounded", right? Yes, these are the people who don't "see the bigger picture", right?
My witness, and my personal verification of what has been recorded throughout history, came as what could be described as an out of body experience. You could say, I was at the end of my physical realm (self). Lets just say the “me” that normally resides in my body –had left the building. Although I don’t recommend it, I had, in fact, challenged God to answer….and He did. No fooling.
Interestingly, people on the other side of the globe report similar such "out of body" experiences all the time.....yet, they "challenged" the deities "Allah" and "Buddha", depending on the culture. No fooling.
It isn’t the kind of proof you’re looking for---I’m not sure it was what I was looking for--- hell, it’s a burden. But, now, I can’t say “I think”, or “I believe” because I know better…
Yes, yes, we've heard it all before....you "know" God is real, and that this "God" is "Jesus", based on your personal subjective experience---mind you, one that you can never verify with evidence. Much like John Travolta "knows" scientology is "real", I suppose...hmmmm?
I mean to say, unequivocally, that I am, by happenstance, a witness to a truth that is bigger than opinion – mine, yours, scads of Christian’s, Muslim’s or John Travolta. The Bible just happens to agree, so I consider it valid.
(These things –ultimate truth—are only debatable because we have been left alone to our own devises. Infinitely, they or not debatable, nor are they ultimately left open for interpretation. So if I do not go on and on, and at some point, break it off –I’ just tired. I’m not asking you to swallow everything I’m tell you, but it would appear that all we get is circumstantial evidence, so you might want to include this in your balance scale. If not, you just have to finish on your own anyway. I am telling you –we don’t get to choose to “get it”—it gets us.)
As for being “confounded” and the one “true” interpretation and those other folks on the other side of the world…and “enlightenment”; you’re still talking about “thinking” something or “believing” (or not believing) something, up until you “know” the truth. –I’m going to be brutally honest with you. Humanity is going through a period of adolescence: Before you like girl—you hate them (or they have cooties)—then, when you find out more—you love ‘em! This is just a human condition—you can’t just say you are right and everybody is wrong--at every stage of the process. What you think at the time—doesn’t mean anything. So don’t just tell me I’m wrong—just because, knowing what I know now, I now like girls (metaphor)—I used to hate them too. It just makes you like a foolish kid who ends up eating his words later. And, that, is exactly what I am doing now—so give me a break.
And, you don’t get proof—you’ve got to choose.
All said and done, after going down kicking and screaming, I called God, God (not with any expectation, but merely as a process of elimination) – and He answered. What do you want me to say?
This has probably been really entertaining for you all. The only reason I got into it is because I was surprised to find this sort of thing under “religious blogs.”
I may not be back. Is been fun—but, I might have to just have to go hang with the girls –you, know—now that I know they don’t have cooties.
You’ve all been like pals—hope we can still be friends… Maybe I’ll stop by sometime and we can do some guy things, like, have a spitting contest—or something. If it’s alright…
P.S. This isn't your fault Leonard, it really is, just tiring.
Here is a hypothetical scenario. Let's say that one night I am awakened by a strange sound and light. As I look out the window, I observe an alien ship in my back yard. The aliens disembark (they are hideous things to behold) and enter my house. They abduct me, and fly me high above the Earth. As I gaze down at the Earth, the tell me (in English no less) many fantastic things that I had never known. The point out geographical features I have never heard of, and explain, in detail, how the theory of superstrings is flawed and a dead end. They reveal that they know things about my past that I had never told anyone. They explain how various mechanism inside our living cells work--things science has never even dreamed of. They show me a proof of the Riemann hypothesis--the most famous open problem in all of mathematics. Then they fly me home. I wake up some time later in a cold sweat. What I had just experienced was unlike any mere dream I had ever had. Not only that, but I was now armed with an array of fantastic information. I rush to the globe in my office, and there are the very features I saw while above the Earth in the alien vessel--features I had never noticed before on my globe.
Still with me? Now, what I just described is utterly fantastic, as is what you relate (and for similar reasons). But my reaction would be worlds apart from yours. Here are two ways that my subsequent behavior would be radically different from what you relayed to us.
1) No matter how real my experience had seemed, I would be deeply skeptical, and I would test every aspect of it that I could. I would also seriously consider the possibility that I was losing my mind. I would set about attempting to verify every scrap of "knowledge" that the aliens had left me with. Did they really show me how to prove Riemann's hypothesis? Is what they told me about living cells really correct? If so, was there some other way I could have arrived at these things on my own? I can state with a very high degree of confidence that I would never rule out the possibility of an alternative explanation, even if I ultimately decided that the most likely explanation was that it really happened. That is, unless I really had lost my mind.
2) Even if I concluded that it probably did really happen, I would recognize that it would be foolish for me to think that others would accept it as being true. I categorically would not go to various blogs and relate my story: "I was awakened by a strange sound and light...". I would recognize that rational people would reject my story as fanciful unless I could provide credible evidence. Even then, I would not expect anybody to go to great lengths to verify my story, as the world is brimming with lunatics who tell of similar experiences. That is, unless I really had lost my mind.
The upshot is this. First, as you do not seem to be interested in entertaining other explanations, I consider you to be unacceptably credulous. Second, the ease with which you toss out your just-so story tells me that you have no appreciation for skepticism--that is, for why other people should doubt you. These facts together tell me that you are unreliable, and I therefore give your story no more credence than I do the words of the guy who stands on the street corner shouting "The end is near!".
Since Tizso "might not be back" I'll just type out-loud for a minute. Okay, he has done nothing here but make some distinctions without altering his plea one damned bit. Shocked? I'm not. He reworded it, while managing to hammer home my original point even harder, that being, that while he is convinced that what he "witnessed" is some "transcendental truth", until the information/incident/experience is made available to everyone----everyone in all geological locations; all cultures--- this "revelation" can never, and will never, be a universal "Truth" for all of man-kind. Just because he feels/believes/"knows" that this "Divine revelation" is "above" even his own opinion, is NOT evidence for any "transcendent" reality and/or "Truth".
Furthermore, I'd love to see the specific bible verse that just "happens to agree" with one man's personal experience, while making "scads" of other "Christians" wrong. That should be entertaining.
I call shenanigans. Where is my broomstick?
I realize that this is where you live (your space) and I was just visiting. But I’ve got to tell you, your position of skepticism and demanding just the kind of proof that you can process – is, well, self-limiting.
You say “never” like you were in charge of forever. You’re not.
Do you realize how many things (real things) would not pass your limited-to-the-natural/physical test? The world is full of them (I mentioned a few), but I can see that you just won’t go there. Life must be pretty bland without the fantastic and the magic.
For a moment I thought I saw you peeking out from behind the blinders of self-limitation --- I must have been mistaken.
Enjoy your boring, little, limited existence. I’ll wave to you on the other side; I’ll be the one with the big smile…
Now, I’m gone. Enough is enough.
Our lives are bland without magic and fantastic assertions, and we have a boring little limited existence? Says who, Tizso, You?
Tizso?
Tizso, why don’t you answer…?
Oh, that’s right. You got your ass soundly kicked, your nose bloodied, and your head handed to you on a platter, so you wave this off like your leaving the field in victory. Uh-huh…only in your mind.
And we can all feel the rock-solid True Christian love from your condescending sign-off: “I’ll wave to you on the other side; I’ll be the one with the big smile…”
What a christian twit.
Oh, and of course, if the non-theist "can't see" that there's a "meta-physical flying man-ghost" who is just clammering to be detected from within a physical universe---despite that notion being a blatant contradiction---well, of course, then the non-theist is "close-minded" and "boring".
Well, I've suspended my heathen "prickness" long enough. Tyco---either provide objective evidence for your mystical mish-mash, or scram......BEAT it!..and that means don't even come back and read about your ass-whoopin'. Hoop!... there it is! lol
So, I think that still leaves us with a moral obligation to resist such a being, not kneel in cowardly submission simply because he is the biggest and the toughest.
Oh, and that was a good video OnelessGod...
(And you guys are sooo pathetic!) How long’ve you been at this?...
It’s like XML files (RSS) –you know the exist---you have just been on so many wild goose chases, and fed up with it, that you would rather deny that any of them are the real thing (denial & self-limitation).
You are the glass-is-half-empty crowd!
All I had to do to see it for what it is, was to go back to the Christian blogs, they’re the glass-is-half-full crowd---and they are so full of hope (hopeful). ---That makes you the “hopeless” ones (pathetic).
Granted, in a sea of uncertainty, things do not look promising ---unless you “know” something (real). You’re the ones in the lifeboat, whining that “we’re all going to die!” (Pathetic). But I had already given you that benefit of the doubt.
But, the truth remains; just because everything else is a lie (and you are fed up with it)---doesn’t mean (categorically) that there isn’t one truth among them. ---That, is the equation, fellas---that’s the one you struggle with… I tried to give you that benefit of the doubt too (I totally did)—but, you really are---just pathetically in denial!
The sad part is, your not just whining, you’re rocking the boat (and we have to ride together)---so, I guess I spoke up—just so you would shut up! But, you’re also unresponsive. ---And you know what happens when you are not responsive, don’t you? ---Come on, are ya thinking yet? ---You know what happens, I know you know! ---Because, you might be all those other things, but you’re not stupid…
Isn’t funny how truth keeps hitting you upside the head?
P.S. And the "reason and science" thing -- you're living in a bubble --your own delusion (pathetic)...
Tiz,
If you find solace in believing in your make-believe deity, then by all means, believe in it. You have the right to live in a fantasy if you want. No one is denying you that.
I, for one, prefer reality, even if that reality is missing a little of that "Santa Claus coming down your chimney" magic.
Remember Tiz, you came here. We didn't come to you.
Now, if you actually have some evidence that your magical, mystical, hell-fire-breathing god actually exists somewhere besides your imagination or the imagination of other believers, I'm sure everyone here would love to take a look at that evidence.
Oh, and have a tremendous day.
I'M sure though that he and the rest of the Jesus crowd are more charismatic than me. If I'M not mistaken it is Charisma that enables the myriad of preacher scam artists to so ruthlessly control the credulous masses, and take their money.
Dan (God = perfect=doesn't need our praise)
You too, however, have not been correct: I found you on “blogtopsites” under “religious blogs” --- Fact: You came to us, not the other way around… And I might add, I’m sure you listed there for all the attention. So don’t be so surprised when you get it.
As for the content of my blogging, I have been exercising tough love –and the truth hurts, as they say. The alternative is not to care—not to write—but to write you off (categorically)…But, that’s not my nature. I guess you didn’t read the compassionate parts; I guess you didn’t see my attempt to dream with you---not because it is a dream—but because it is a truth that is not visible to the naked eye. And, yes, you have the choice of not going there ---but then again, you did come into the “Religious Blogs” ---I suspect, because there is a reason; I suspect, part of you come/came to rant in denial and some to sell your own version of what you consider to be truth. Either way, you (you) have steered your little bubble-existence into my side of the pond. Maybe you shouldn’t get so close.
And here goes my last little shot at the proof you seek (since you brought it up): The kind of proof you are looking for, the kind you would find acceptable in your limited version of reality---isn’t there… You all have been saying it, and I’ve been saying it! (If you won't listen to us, why don't you listen to yourselve?) ---But, that’s not to say, it isn’t right outside. ---But you won’t allow yourself to go there…
So…stay home then ---it was always your decision to make.
But, I can’t believe you actually blame me for trying…
Here's some tough love back at you.
You are calling fantasies which exist only in your imagination reality. If you continue on the course in your life, you may suffer the complete loss of your sanity.
Please come back to reality before your mind cracks.
This blog is all over the Internet. And, doh, the topics on this blog are religious in nature -- dohhhh.
Clearly stated in the site disclaimer linked on EVERY SINGLE PAGE is that the site is not intended as an invitation to outraged Christians to defend their offended deity.
Tizzy, you're so full of shit. You are not practicing tough love. You are pissed off. You are angry and steaming. Smoke is coming out of your ears. Just admit it.
Tizzy raved: "And here goes my last little shot at the proof you seek (since you brought it up): The kind of proof you are looking for, the kind you would find acceptable in your limited version of reality---isn’t there… You all have been saying it, and I’ve been saying it! (If you won't listen to us, why don't you listen to yourselve?) ---But, that’s not to say, it isn’t right outside. ---But you won’t allow yourself to go there…"
Uhm, huh?
So, what was that evidence, again? I'd love to exam your evidence. What is it now? All I got from that garble was some excuses for why you don't have any evidence.
Oh well, have a great day!
Does a link to a “religious blog” mean we sought you out Tizso? All you had to do was bypass or ignore it, it doesn’t work like a black hole and suck you in.
Tizso’s latest postings = ad hominem attacks = “I win”
So much for Tizso's earlier threat not to come back because "enough was enough".
Yep, Tizso, we’ll concede the low ground to you. You’ve earned it.
"If there are simply no possible answers to these mysteries, we must conclude that they were caused by an alien being from outer space."
If we don't have the answers right now, I'm sorry Tiszo, but you MAY NOT conclude supernatural answers. Finding answers to questions PRECLUDES SUPERNATURAL ANSWERS. Too many secularists have been lazy in this way, supposing this could be a possible conclusion. If this is so, then they get an F in math, and heart surgeons need to go back to school. If you don't factor in these basic realities to a "supernatural answers are possible," you are special pleading, and you LOSE.
What is 2+2, Tiszo? Possibly a SUPERNATURAL ANSWER? Why the hell not? Get off the computer. It's not binary, it's controlled by ANGELS.
I can't explain why I've wasted so much time responding to you. I keep thinking that maybe something might get through--call it "tough love". :-)
How can you possibly say that we have been unresponsive? I've written at length telling you exactly why I find your position untenable. You have responded with all manner of ad hominem attacks, but nothing even approaching a thoughtful reply.
You said "The kind of proof you are looking for, the kind you would find acceptable in your limited version of reality---isn’t there…" You have absolutely no idea what kind of "proof" (I presume you mean evidence) I would accept. You simply pronounce my worldview "limited," ignoring my comments about how limiting credulity is. You assert that we are somehow less happy than you, when you have absolutely no way to judge this, and it would be irrelevant even if it were true.
For the record, I will state this as plainly as I can. I place no a priory constraints on the type of evidence that you wish to provide. However, if your argument fails to distinguish between you position and myriad mythical positions that we can all agree are false, then I will not be swayed by it. Does that make sense to you?
One more time: If your reasoning does not make your claims more likely than competing claims, then I have no more reason to believe you than anybody else. That's as plain as I can make it. If you grace us with your presence again, please do acknowledge what I just said, and try to show a little civility while you're at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on,_tune_in,_drop_out
Dan (you're welcome)
So the bible stories are true, and it's god is real...?
Doesn't that horrify you?
Shouldn't we resist such a sadistic and mega-genocidal tyrant, even if he is creator of great natural beauty?
Hitler was also an architect. Personally, I like his taste in architecture (I may be alone on that one), but I'd stand against his philosophies, and his authority...
You are in danger of becoming like those Nazi soldiers that carried out all Hitlers commands. They were 'just following orders', not questioning or challenging the established authority.
How could they, they'd be killed or worse.
Yet none of us would now criticise them if they had, because we all know it would've been the right thing to do.
They'd be remembered as heroic martyrs...
Come on Tizso, take a stand. Join the resistance! ;)
Maybe that's the greater spiritual test?
To see if you will submit in resignation and cowardice, or whether you will nobly stand against it no matter the consequences.
Which is more respectable?
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