These articles were published between January 2001 and February 4, 2010.
To view more recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
These articles were published between January 2001 and February 4, 2010.
To view more recent posts, go to The Main Blog at ExChristian.Net
Comments
How much of a better person did he need to be?
He was already a faithful believer.
Christian's don't seem to ever think about Job's family in this story either.
They didn't become better people out of it. They got dead.
Would Job's wife ever have married him if she knew she'd be killed, just so that Job could 'become a better person'?
When a Preacher say's, "I don't fully understand why God would do that...", then he should be challenged, "How dare you teach anyone else about this 'God', leading people's lives into submission to him, when you don't even know what you're talking about yourself."
Of course nobody really knows more about the book of Job than the first chapter and the last (the wager, the plagues, Job being restored) - which goes to show people who pretend to know about the Bible really don't know anything about it.
The book of Job is one of the most beautiful book of the Bible, and it is also the most agnostic. In fact it almost advocates atheism, as Job is commended for bringing God to trial. Good stuff. Read it.
I guess they would just be miserable wretches, just as the song says they would be..huh?
The real convincing evidence would have been that, Jesus supposedly disguised as God, would have survived the crucifixion and walking around on Earth today, spreading his message and performing his miracles today, just as Methuselah suppossedly lived to be 887 years old, didn't seem to attract that much attention back in those days, Jesus would have been a little over 2000 years old still living today, no big deal perhaps.
The miracle would have been that Jesus is here with us today, there would be no further need for a Bible or a Quran, no questions need to be asked, no need for different beliefs, nor different denominations.
The big mistake was that Jesus died, they all thought that Jesus would miracously save himself and walk away and still be living today but their scheme failed them, now we all need an abundant amount of faith to believe Jesus is God in disguise.
The real problem is that, we have this book that was written by men, and were allowed to call it inspired by a God.
Adam and Eve: They didn't understand the concept of death. How could a threat like that bother them? --Brett, God clearly warned about the consequences of disobeying Him- Genesis 2:17:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is more important that we should honor the Word of God rather than molded by the fear of the consequences of not obeying Him. Likewise, now we do not have a concept of hell. Yet, God is warning us about it through His Bible. We should heed His word more than trying to comprehend the exact nature of hell. Before death was a reality Satan deceived Adam and Eve into death inspite of God's forewarning about it. In the same way, before hell is a reality Satan has been deceiving us into hell inspite of God's forewarnings in His Word about the reality of hell.
God knew who would be saved before the foundation of the world...You are right. That is the doctrine of election. God chose select human beings for His kingdom. We shall understand that the whole humanity is condemned due to Adam's sin. God offered salvation to all in Christ. Yet, not all people are going to become Christians. God in fact knew the people who would become Christians. It is like the President offering clemency to certain prisoners on the row to their execution. The President is not unfair in choosing certain individuals for the clemency. It is the will of the President to pardon whomever He chooses. The remaining prisoners die to pay their own crimes. They have nobody to blame but themselves. Yet we should not ignore human responsibility in this matter. The divine sovereignty and human responsibility are like two rails on the same track. They go parellel to each other. In other words the world is moving on both rails: Divine Sovereignty and Human responsibility. For example, as an experienced teacher I knew John is a poor student and will fail the forthcoming test. Yet, John cannot blame me for his failure if he fails the test. Passing or failing is on his shoulders. Jesus said, 'He that cometh to me I shall in nowise cast him out', 'For God so love the world', Jesus died for the sins of the world. Salvation is prepared for all human beings.
JOB: Satan accussed that Job is following God just for the sake of things he got from God. So, God wanted to prove to Satan that Job loved Him without any interest in material gains. At the end, God glorified humanity by showing that there are certain people who love Him just for the sake of loving God. The tests also proved to Job that no matter what happens to him his faith is real and his Redeemer is alive to lead him in all trials.
The big lesson of the Book of Job is in chapter 38. God showed up in a whirlwind and shot a flurry of questions at Job. Job could not answer even one question out of some 50 questions God directed at him. The lesson is there are no answers for everything in life, yet we can trust God just for who God is. God is perfectly good and righteous in all his actions. You know the origin of Engligh word, God. They took it from the word, 'good'. Therefore God is synonymous with goodness.
CHANGE IN MY LIFE: Change is a subjective phenomenon. Many Christians give subjective proofs to objective questions. Our experiences may supplement our answers but they are not substitutes to our answers. You do not need to be a Christian in order to quit drugs and pornography. AA or NA can help in that matter. The biggest evidence to Christianity is the historicity of the resurrection of Lord Jesus Christ. Mohammed did not raise from the dead, nor Buddha, or Rama or Krishna. Jesus proved to us through His resurrection that He is who He claimed He was.
I have one request from you. Please use paragraph separations. Long, extended, rambling blocks of text are annoyingly hard to read, regardless of what is being written.
Sincerely.
Likewise, now we do not have a concept of hell. Yet, God is warning us about it through His Bible. We should heed His word more than trying to comprehend the exact nature of hell. Before death was a reality Satan deceived Adam and Eve into death inspite of God's forewarning about it. In the same way, before hell is a reality Satan has been deceiving us into hell inspite of God's forewarnings in His Word about the reality of hell.
God knew who would be saved before the foundation of the world...You are right. That is the doctrine of election. God chose select human beings for His kingdom. We shall understand that the whole humanity is condemned due to Adam's sin. God offered salvation to all in Christ. Yet, not all people are going to become Christians. God in fact knew the people who would become Christians.
If that being the case, then God already knew that Satan would disrupt Heaven and the entire world, he could have warned Adam and Eve not to listen to a talking snake, instead he told them not to eat of the tree.
Also this God being the creator of all things, could have easily eliminated all evil and Satan at the snap of the fingers. If he created the whole universe in just six days, destroying evil and corruption would have been a snap to eliminate. Since he knew all this would happen.
Your nonsense Paul is just that, nonsense!
Paul, you're just repeating something that people wrote down over 2000 years ago and they were on halucingenic drugs, opium and hashish.
Jesus was never resurrected, his physical body was missing, why because he walked out of the tomb, his physical body was never found, why? If it's the soul that goes to Heaven, the physical body should have been there, but it was gone.
The story of Jesus is the biggest hoax and fraud to have ever been devised and you Christians got fooled, you're suckers.
You got took, Paul you mind and your money.
You say that like it's a bad thing ;)
Penn Got it right! (After all he did graduate from Clown College with what I'm sure was an advanced degree in history.)
Jesus was just a normal guy who was beaten severely, nailed to a cross, peirced, had about 100 pounds of spices and cloth, had a large stone removed, tricked the Roman guards and removed the Roman Seal (the guards all went out to have a sandwich.)
Please do not give athiest a bad name by using this theory (See David Friedrich Strauss.) I know this site is all about "attacking Christians" but have some sense...
I appreciate how respectful Brett Keane is to the Baptist Pastor. However, these philosophical arguements are quite circular. The historical and scientific approach carries greater wieght.
Onanite
Those of you who come here and feel attacked are free to spout your apologetics and evangalizing elswhere; that's not what we come here for.
But if you want to provide some entertainment or diversion (or even conduct an intelligent discussion) be prepared for a skeptical audience and grow a thick skin (or maybe just grow up!)
Asana Bodhitharta
This makes me think he is not a "bully" - he's just doing a little comedy with some serious topics. There is room for that in the world.
I still want Brett to call me, or let me call him for an exchange. Just please go to the bathroom first!
kharris@thewordfm.com
There's enough evidence in this video alone, to convince anyone in their 'right mind' that the Bible is a pile of trash
Quit finding dufasses try to find some real good debater like a modern day CS Lewis.
However, they also wear the title of preacher and deacon.
This is telling.
This is also one of the reasons ex-Christians have better arguments that Christians. The bulk of Christians in my experience have been strikingly ignorant, non-questioning, drones.
Uhm, right.
That's the point.
Comment: If you feel you have a better comprehension of how such things should be handled, then there is nothing keeping you from doing it yourself, and then showing us all how it should be done.
Keep in mind, anony, no two of us see everything exactly the same way.
Peace.
That's what Brett's doing.
With this said...I know as for me..I was a book worm in the faith a Calvinist and well studied. So When i see Mr Keene going up against more less preachers who know the Bible like not very good "Like this one and like the Catholic one a few days back"
I would thus say....'Ohh what is this?'
I mean come on thats like me who knows little about Space...and having Carl Sagen call me on the phone and telling me about Black holes, Red Star, Blue Dwarfs etc...I think you get the drift.
I think now at this stage of the game it would do Mr Keene more service to find real challenges..Not Craker Jack ones!
I would rather see Mr Keene post 1 good vid, then 25 like this one..Anymore I quit veiwing these..its the same old rethoric.
Right before I was baptized I found an arrow head, now to some of you that might sound like a joke, or a coinsidence, but the verse that God game me that day was in Isaiah 42:9 " And He has made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of His hand he has concealed me, and He has also made me a select ARROW, he has hidden me in his quiver." Now that was God speaking right to me, and if you ask me, thats a miracle too. So many other things have happened to me that have assured me that God is with me. When you guys put down someone who really did die for you(whether you want to confess that or not) and bad mouth him all the time, it makes people like me, who know God, really want you guys to see the light, and have God come into your life. I was lost, and now I am found!!! you guys, I know that you do not believe...but whether you do or not, Jesus loves you, and always will!! I urge to to seek for him and confess your sins, because when you do, trust me...he will make himself known to you to!! please email me guys, ivfjeremyb99@hotmail.com
Do you believe in Zeus? Have you sincerely asked Zeus to demonstrate his awesome powers to you? If not, please explain why. If Zeus is truly the god of all gods, you would want to know it, right? Wouldn't you? I can guarantee that if you accept the power of Zeus, it will change your life.
If you seriously address my simple questions, perhaps we can have a conversation. If not, have a nice life.
But you didn't answer the second part of my question. Have you sincerely asked him to demonstrate his powers to you? Many people simply believe the first religion they are exposed to, and that precludes them from seeking any further. Do you deny that billions of people all over the world believe in false gods, and will not consider any other religion because they have already found the "truth"? How do you know that you're not in that camp with respect to Zeus until you've sincerely asked him to reveal his power?
Jeremy: "If you want to get more technical about it, I dont believe in him because the thought of a bunch of gods living on a mountain, riding on chariots through the sky sounds very idiotic to me."
I see. How about a god who cannot defeat chariots made of iron? (Judges 1:19) How about a god who does not like it when you plant two crops in the same field, or wear garments made from two different materials? (Leviticus 19:19) How about a god who loses a wrestling match with a human? (Genesis 32:22-30) How about a god who condones sexual slavery (Numbers 31:15-18,Exodus 21:7) and infanticide (Hosea 13:16, 2 Kings 15:16, 1 Samuel 15:3, Psalms 137:9), deception, genocide, and plundering (Deuteronomy 20:10-15), etc. etc. etc.
You think Zeus is idiotic? Oh, please. If that's a legitimate criterion, then Yahweh is in really sad shape. Furthermore, if it's reasonable to expect a god to exhibit a higher morality than man, then Yahweh is an idiotic choice. I know of no other deity who has purportedly condoned and even commanded such ghastly behavior. Do you?
Jeremy: "Now, if you read the Bible, and see that God gave israel their promised land, and how conflicts between them and the muslim nations have been happening for thousands of years, it is even going on in front of our very own eyes today, theres is some proof now, isin't there??..."
Proof that religions foment violence and bloodshed? Yes, it sure does show that. But that's not what you meant, is it? You meant that the Bible "prophesied" these events, right? How closely have you examined the so-called prophecies? We discuss them all the time on this site. Those who come here and cite them as impressive evidence for the divine origin of the Bible are almost without exception completely ignorant of how the Bible was written, and how various passages came to be identified as prophetic. So, how closely have you studied them?
Jeremy: "...no matter what others think about the bible, or no matter how many people believe there is no God, there really is, an all merciful, loving God..."
That's what you believe. Simply asserting it doesn't help your case. We already know that you believe such things, and you should already know that we do not share your beliefs. Unless you have some credible evidence that distinguishes your fantastic claims of invisible all-powerful entities from myriad others, we'll just go ahead and file yours along with Zeus, Mithra, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Isis, and all the rest. Fair enough?
Our God ( yes, yours too, whether you want to admit it/believe it or not) is a God that we cannot understand. I mean, can you explain our complex galaxy/natural instincts etc?? Someone had to create it. Now, you say why I dont call unto zeus to demonstrate his powers to me??... well... hes not real!!! Ofcourse, you can say
" hey, thats what you believe, that doesnt make it true" and you can also say "I dont have proof" Its just a walk of faith my friend, I have witnessed healings, speaking in tounges, prophecies,-things that the Bible talks about, showing proof to me, now to you..its a whole different story.
You see, you have to realize, im not writing to you to condemn you, im writing to you to tell you that Jesus can turn your life around, like he did mine, IF you give him a chance...I mean, why not?? May I ask why you dont believe in God in the first place??
And in the very next sentence NONY implied that the inexplicable complexity of the galaxy somehow explains the self-existence of an incomprehensible god.
An ironic apologetic.
"God did it" explains the things we don't yet understand. Once upon a time, God supposedly threw thunderbolts, shook the ground with earthquakes, punished with volcanoes, denied rain, sent disease and famine and tornadoes etc. Now we know that all those things are not manifestations from a god, but normal forces and cycles of nature.
It's a big galaxy, and our knowledge of it is no doubt small. Yet, based on past assumptions about gods and nature, it is like that the forces that formed the galaxy, our instincts, and even the entire universe, have a purely naturalistic explanation. I think it more than likely that future generations will look at the religious faith of today and think "How simple-minded and ignorant," much like we look at the religious faith of those former times and think "How simple-minded and ignorant."
Science has gone a very long way toward explaining these things, yes. Galaxy formation is quite well understood, as is the acquisition of complex social behaviors. Of course, there are many unanswered questions, but the explanations that science has provided thus far are testable, and they make myriad detailed predictions that have been verified.
Jeremy: "...Someone had to create it."
Whoa... slow down. Please explain how you got from "galaxies are complex" to "someone had to create it". That's a huge step, and I fear I've misses something very important here.
Jeremy: "Now, you say why I dont call unto zeus to demonstrate his powers to me??... well... hes not real!!!"
So, it seems you are saying that you would FIRST need to believe in Zeus before you would ask him to demonstrate his powers. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting. Is that accurate?
Jeremy: "Its just a walk of faith my friend,..."
If that's so, then you can clearly understand why others do not believe the same thing you do, right? Most of us here do not believe in things for the sake of "faith", but rather look to where the evidence points.
Jeremy: "I have witnessed healings, speaking in tounges, prophecies,..."
But now you're talking about observable evidence! Didn't you just say it was "faith"? I'm confused. Please explain. Especially about the speaking in tongues part. Do you have any video you could share? Oh, and the healings... they wouldn't happen to have included an amputee who got a limb back, would they? I'm still waiting to see one of those.
Jeremy: "...im writing to you to tell you that Jesus can turn your life around,..."
But I've never disputed that. Belief in Jesus has changed millions of lives. As has belief in Allah, and Shiva, Mithra, and every other god invented by man. If you suddenly believe fervently in anything it will change your life. If you believed you were an artichoke, I guarantee it would change your life. NOT believing also changes lives. There are dozens of people here who will tell you that their lives improved dramatically when they STOPPED believing in invisible deities. What do you make of that?
Jeremy: "May I ask why you dont believe in God in the first place??"
Sure. I've never seen one scrap of credible evidence that she exists. It's that simple.
Saying how the universe is so complex and someone had to create it, has a direct relation...I dont see how I lost you there?? If I had a video of someone speaking in tounges, I would show you, but I dont... but I have seen it with my own eyes. As a said before, im n ot here to tell you how wrong you are on the way you live, or to change your beliefs ( even though it would be nice if you did) all I am here for is to tell people how God changed my life, thats all. And yes, you can say that other religions change people too, but the truth is, their god has never answered there prayers!! there are so many arguements we can get into Mr. Arvo, there are arguements for everything. Im just a 17 year old kid, trying to spread God's word...I'll pray for God to do a miracle in your life, and let you see the light, like he did to me.
So what? It's a purely emotional/psychological phenomenon! Tell me - how many religions and "faiths" use glosalalia? How many?? THOUSANDS. So.. ..why is yours special again?? I still can't find anything unique about christianity. I haven't found one thing that other religions have once had at some point. And who cares anyway. They're all crap. -Wes.
Well, I have to admit. I was in your shoes when I was 17. Been there, done that. Heck - you name it. If it had something to do with christanity, I was involved. I was: Youth Leader, Youth Assistant Pastor, Youth Counselor, Worship Team leader/drummer/sound and light tech.. ..oh, geez. The list goes on and on for about twenty years... -Wes.
I just spilled some milk on the floor. The pattern is complex. Did someone design it? Snowflakes are incredibly intricate, with dozens of symmetries. Did someone design them? You look at something and deem it so complex that "someone" must have designed it. I want to know how you feel qualified to make that assessment and what it is based on. That's a straightforward question.
Jeremy: "...all I am here for is to tell people how God changed my life, thats all."
Okay, you shared that in your very first post, did you not? Your belief in an invisible being has affected your life; or so you think. Okay. We get it. As I said, that happens all the time, with hundreds of belief systems. So, you must be after something more. What?
Jeremy: "And yes, you can say that other religions change people too, but the truth is, their god has never answered there prayers!!"
Who, specifically, are you talking about? Please tell me which gods you are talking about, and how you know that they do not answer prayers. While you're at it, explain how the god you believe in has a better track record than the others.
Jeremy: "Im just a 17 year old kid, trying to spread God's word...I'll pray for God to do a miracle in your life, and let you see the light, like he did to me."
And I will be hoping that you escape the cult you are in one day. Come on back when you're ready to ask some really hard questions about your beliefs. Good luck to you.
If you were so involved in the church, what made you be like you are now, not wanting anything to do with the church??
Simple. I started seriously studying comparative religion and researching the roots of christianity. After years and years of study, and besides the fact that christianity simply couldn't answer my questions effectively, I simply recognized the fact that christianity has very little to demonstrate by way of 'truth', much like most all world religions that exist, or ever had existed. -Wes.
when Jesus comes back...
Could you possible give evidence that he was already here?
I mean, I know you guys hate life, and are miserable...
Avoidance of reality, group therapy, obsessive behavior, the list could go on and on. Sounds like you have no meaning to your life and it is you who are miserable and depressed. You seek to be with others to validate your existence. Take away your precious jesus and you are without meaning. There is no life force within you. You are scared shitless and are dependent on other's acknowledgements. Try looking inside of yourself for once and not to others or a book.
Everyone has meaning in this life and it up to each individual to discover what that meaning is to them. It is not dictated to us, but chosen by us.
Happy in a jesus-less world.
What have you said that was true?
We hate life? We are miserable?
What does your god say about lying?
(Sighing heavily, the Springy Goddess sips her beer, pets a cat, and puts in another heavy metal CD) I adore life. And most of the people I chat with on this forum also appear to enjoy life quite a bit.
Except for the times when proselytizing idiots come stumbling in and try to tell *us* what *we* think about Life, the Universe and Everything.
Idiots who have the audacity to call *us* liars.
Shame on you for your arrogant falsehoods.
Shame on you for judging people that you have not personally met.
(glances quickly a handful of years into Earth's future) Já, this one will deconvert, too.
I truly doubt it since most of you write worst than most 8th graders I tutor!
Therefore, I will give you the idea of what a Poetic Truth is, since most of you will be too lazy to look it up yourself. A Poetic Truth is a fable or a story which tells a moral truth. Not until recent history has humankind been concerned with rather a fable is actual history or not. People in Ancient History, you know the period when human beings were writing the bible and other holy books, were not concerned in writing what actually happened, they were concerned in writing a moral truth, or aka a poetic truth. For example, does it matter if Noah really built an arch and the world really flooded? Only to the dumbasses who can not understand the concept of poetic truth. The only thing you should get from this story is: first sometimes you need to take a chance on your gut instinct and do something, like build an arch, when everyone else thinks your insane, second is to be kind to animals, because if there is a god lets hope he/she gives a shit about all his/her creations, and third respect the planet, respect the forces of nature.
It is a waste of time looking for the arch, and evidence of a flood. In the scheme of things who cares. If you are not smart enough to say it does not matter, I am going to follow the moral teachings of this story and other fables from ancient times, without God having to drop the commandments, or the arch on my head, you are probably a dumbass anyway.
'Poetic truth' is an oxymoron. I prefer the term 'metaphor', myself.
"For example, does it matter if Noah really built an arch and the world really flooded?"
Personally, I am 99.99999...% certain that it never happened.
The Noachide flood story, however, puts the lie to the Judeo-Christian claim that their god is "good". Only a complete and utter maniac would drown a planet.
For example the word wine means about three different things in the bible. Physically the word wine is different than what it is today. People had to drink distilled products, because their was no means to purify water any other way. So when the word wine comes up, you have to realize they are talking about uncut wine. They used to cut wine with water and sometimes add in spices and honey for taste. So when an ancient text says wine they are talking about a wine not cut with water, and when they say water, ecspecially if they are consuming it, they are talking about wine mixed with water. So why does wine get so much shit talking in the bible, while because if you are a glutton and drink more than your fair share in a community you are depriving someone else of their water supply, because it does take a while to distill alchool. The reason I bring this up is because it is an example of how one word can change a whole meaning of the text, if we do not understand the ancient day meaning of the words. The same standard should be set on truth, they had a different meaning for truth than what we have today. Not until you understand the History, and culture of the people who wrote the bible, and other ancient text, do you even have a snowball chance in hell of understanding what they are saying. So arguing if Job really existed, Jesus, or Noah you are doing as much good as a dog chasing its own tail.
This is fantastic news! Thanks so much for this astonishing disclosure.
So, "Santa" tells a "moral Truth"..i.e..be a good boy, not a bad boy. 'Got it. Similar to the bible's "Heaven and Hell", correct?...be a "good boy", and you can live forever in the clouds; be a "bad boy"?... and you get incinerated in Satan's horrific torture chamber. Am I "getting it"? Gosh, I hope so.
In the mean time, Delana, how about you get this: The day Christians stop evangelizing, ministering, and promoting their legendary "poetic truths" as objective literal Universal "Truth", is the day I'll shut up about it, 'k? If you are "fine" with seeing and listening to their religious blather, along with their thinly veiled threats for non-compliance? Again, good for you. On the other hand, I have every right to stand up against it. After all, in challenging their legendary superstition bullsh*t beliefs, you will inevitably cure at least a small percentage of them. I know this for a fact, because I WAS formerly one of those very brainwashed people. Do we/can we have an understanding?
Delana: They are fables which tell a moral story. You are trying to put modern day standard or a modern day definition to the idea truth! The people who wrote the bible, and many other ancient text, did not define truth the way we do today.
In that case, I'd loved to be enlightened as to what the "poetic truth" is in KILLING people who don't conform to a particular "fable". If memory serves me, St. Nick doesn't tell his little elves to go kill all the people who don't take him literally. On the other hand, both the "Holy Qur'an AND the "Holy Bible" condone, and promote, the killing of non-believers of their respective doctrines.(And I'll be happy to provide the exact scripture if need be)
Delana: So once again the moronic part is not the term poetic truth, it is the fact most of us are so dumb we want to take a book, that at the best is a little less than 2,000 years old and define the truth of it by today's standards. That is what most Christians do, that is why[they're] screwed in the head, and unfortunately, most individuals who defy Christianity try to do the same thing. It makes you both look like idiots.
Ironically, in calling everyone who doesn't think just like you, "dumb" and "idiots", you seem to miss the point. You see, the difference between Christians who "define" their Holy book as "Truth" by "today's standards", and the secularists/freethinkers who tell them that there IS no objective "Truth" in their ancient hand-book by "today's standards", is that we don't need the Bronze-aged "poetic truths" of ignorant men to tell us HOW to act and behave in modern civilized society. "Thou shalt not murder". No sh*t? "Treat others as you wish to be treated."(the "Golden rule") Wow..really? Thank gawd for the bible, huh?
You see, the objective is to ABOLISH legendary thinking from the planet---we don't need it. In doing so, it is sometimes necessary to refute the crap in the bible, including it's "poetic truths". 'Follow? BTW, what is the "poetic truth" of a "soul"? I'm curious.
Delana: Not until you understand the History, and culture of the people who wrote the bible, and other ancient text, do you even have a snowball chance in hell of understanding what they are saying.
That would be a great soundbite IF I needed an "understanding" of "what they were saying".... or, if I need a lesson on grapes. I don't.
Delana: So arguing if Job really existed, Jesus, or Noah you are doing as much good as a dog chasing its own tail.
You're entitled to your opinion. Here's mine: By refuting the Christian claim that their Holy book contains all the answers to lifes greatest questions, and that in it's pages is the "Divinely" inspired objective "Truth" for all of mankind, parable, or not, we rid the world of harmful superstitions, and make the world a better place.
You're either part of the solution, or you're part of the problem.
Good day.
I understand perfectly that most of the stories in the Bible were made up by humans trying to instill moral values in their communities.
However, it troubles me to think that these same believers have no problem worshipping a god who makes a mockery of Biblical morality.
Planet-wide omnicide, mythological or not, is not the trademark of any being whom I would care to worship.
So, what is the Bible really trying to say? "Might makes right"? No, thanks; I'll pass.
Not until you understand the History, and culture of the people who wrote the bible, and other ancient text, do you even have a snowball chance in hell of understanding what they are saying.
I am not just speaking about the bible, but all ancient text.
My general concern is this you are either an Atheist or not! If you want to speak as if the bible is historically accurate, and then say your an Atheist, then your obviously just angry at GOD. It is either a poetic truth or historically document, and I promise their is a lot of Christians who see it as the latter. So if you are truly an atheist who is trying to prove some kind of point can you please refer to it as a book of fables or poetic truths instead of an historical document. Also if you are going to refer to it at all in your arguments, go learn something about the culture and the history of the society who wrote the bible, or any other ancient text you refer to in your arguments. Which you should do with any primary source you use. The reason I used the example of the wine, or the grapes, as you refer to it J. C. Samuelson, is to show how one word can change meaning in 2000 years. The bible has over 444,395 different words in it, how many of these have changed meaning with time. How many people in the world have taken the time to figure out what these words meant to the people in the time the bible was written, Christian an Atheist alike. Christians use the excuse that the bible is the living word and the meanings are suppose to change with the times. I personally think it is an excuse to be lazy and not learn history. I just thought as an Atheist you were suppose to be better than that, and true learning was important. I guess I was wrong!!!
Your accusations are a bit over the top. Surely you realize that discussions concerning religion can take place on many levels, and any given participant can switch among them, even within a single post. For example, as an atheist I often point out that I have seen no credible evidence for invisible conscious beings of any kind, thus I see no reason to believe in the omnipotent variety that is purported by numerous religions. However, that does not preclude me from also pointing out what an insufferable petulant psychopath the god of the Bible is--as a fictional character--without any danger of being taken for a theist. Or so I would hope.
You said "Generally people who quote scripture, and then argue how evil and mean God is in the next statement, are just angry with God, not a true atheist!"
Of course that's complete nonsense. I have no belief in deities of any description, yet I quote scripture on occasion for a number of reasons. For example, to point out how ghastly the Yahweh character is, or how the Bible contradicts itself, or how it asserts as fact things that are now known to be primitive ideas from a Bronze-age society. Surely one can criticize a work of fiction without claiming it to be anything other than fiction. Moreover, clearly one can criticize many of the stories contained in the Bible without claiming that it is *entirely* fiction. Finally, one can point to absurdities that plainly reveal its status as (largely) fiction.
But there are other reasons to quote scripture as well. For example, one might quote Paul's epistles in the context of discussing Jesus and what we know of him. As it is generally accepted that Paul was an actual first-century evangelist, and that he did indeed write many of the letters attributed to him, one can attempt to extract historical information from his letters. Yet another reason to quote scripture would be as poetry or philosophy. Surely most will admit that the Bible contains some passages of great literary value, and some valuable insights into human nature as well. (As do all "holy" texts--the Bible is clearly not unique in this regard.)
So, I find your comments to be overly simplistic. The Bible is a many-layered document that can be analyzed and criticized at many levels.
Actually, even though you've mellowed out with the ad hominem attacks, I think you might have a slight reading comprehension problem. Firstly, none of us "need" to do anything, as you so kindly suggest, okay? Secondly, please consider this: the ex-Christian, and/or Atheist(not mutually inclusive), wouldn't be pointing out the bible's errancy and blatant inconsistancies in the first place, if it were not for Christians INSISTING that the bible is an objective/universal truth, either a) morally(as I've previously pointed out it ISN'T), OR b) literally(as any rational grown adult knows it ISN'T).
To avoid further misunderstandings, I repeat: the day that Christians stop touting their bible as "Holy"---either as "Divinely" inspired "literal Truths", OR, as "Divinely" inspired "POETIC TRUTHS"---is the day that the bible becomes obsolete, and NO ONE will need to quote it in ANY regard.
Delana continues: When you write about the stories in the bible, and refer to them as actual historical events, and then in the next statement tell people[you're] an atheist, you lose a lot of credit.
Really? Well, to be honest, I think you lose signifigant "credit" when you repeatedly show that you don't know the difference between "your"(possessive), and "you're"(contraction for "you are"). Especially if you are tutoring 8th graders.
Notwithstanding, I'm sorry, but I disagree with your above premise. In the event that non-believers/Atheists should point out that the bible is inconsistant with reality, this does NOT make them "guilty by association" of being a "Theist", nor does it make them a bible-literalist. First, one must consider the context of what's being quoted, and to whom. In other words, on a case-by-case basis. Which reminds me, you didn't address the question about "killing all non-believers"(Deut). Again I ask--- where is the "poetic truth" in such scripture? How about "stoning" rebellious teens? Will you tell me that "stoning" is metaphorical, or has 78 meanings? What?..'get high with 'em?..is that what they meant?
Please address these direct questions, since you are a proponent of the bible being full of "poetic truths". Thanks.
Delana: Generally people who quote scripture, and then argue how evil and mean God is in the next statement, are just angry with God, not a true atheist!
Wrong, once more. Again, if/when a non-believer references scripture in such a way when engaging a Christian, it is to illustrate, hypothetically, that no such being can exist, and be a "God", as defined by the very book from where the scripture originated in the first place. Furthermore, one must consider that it is directed to the Theist who is proffering the exact same biblical passage to "validate" their biblegod's existence, saying that it's "true", literally, because it "says so here:[insert arbitrary scripture]"
Delana continues: My general concern is this you are either an Atheist or not! If you want to speak as if the bible is historically accurate, and then say your an Atheist, then your obviously just angry at GOD.
Please, don't be "concerned" on our behalf, just stop projecting your ridiculous misconceptions about Atheism around here. Atheism is the non-belief in god/gods. If a Muslim says "God exists" because X, Y, and Z in the Holy Qur'an, I can legitimately reference, examine, and ultimately refute X, Y, and Z in the Qur'an, WITHOUT that fact making me a believer in "Allah". To illustrate further---if I say I have flying leprechauns in my back yard, and you say, "but Leprechauns can't fly", that doesn't mean you believe in non-flying Leprechauns, does it? No, of course not.
Delana: So if you are truly an atheist who is trying to prove some kind of point can you please refer to it as a book of fables or poetic truths instead of an historical document.
Please find and quote one Atheist/non-believer on this thread who has explicitly argued their case from a position of the bible being "historically true" and accurate. Furthermore, you'll be hard-pressed to find an ex-christian who will concede that the bible is "poetic truth", at least in an objective/universal sense.
Delana: The reason I used the example of the wine, or the grapes, as you refer to it J. C. Samuelson, is to show how one word can change meaning in 2000 years.
Again, I suspect a reading comprehension problem, as I(boomSLANG) am the one who made the statement about "grapes", not J.C. Samuelson. Nonetheless, I don't give a %$#@ about how word's meanings have changed---it doesn't make religious convictions stand the test of time, nor does it make them morally "true", either literally, or "poetically".
Delana: Christians use the excuse that the bible is the living word and the meanings are suppose to change with the times.
That's odd, because most of the Christians I run across say that the "Word of God" is UN-changing.
Delana ends with: I just thought as an Atheist you were suppose to be better than that, and true learning was important. I guess I was wrong!!!
Well, since you're evidently NOT an Atheist, and further, since you haven't a clue what it means to be an Atheist, then it's probably not a good idea to "think", or hypothesize, about what it means to seek "truth" as one.
Good day.
"Physically the word wine is different than what it is today. People had to drink distilled products, because their was no means to purify water any other way. So when the word wine comes up, you have to realize they are talking about uncut wine. They used to cut wine with water and sometimes add in spices and honey for taste. So when an ancient text says wine they are talking about a wine not cut with water, and when they say water, ecspecially if they are consuming it, they are talking about wine mixed with water."
Actually wine is not distilled. It is fermented. The alcohol content is usually enough to kill harmfull bacteria and such even after watering it down a bit. The addition of honey is done to up the alcohol content and also for flavor. Physically wine is no different today than it was way back then.
Anyway, they were all a bunch of drunken morons who thought they heard bushes, snakes, and asses talking to them. So why should I get morality from them?
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